→Warning: reply |
23.241.74.200 (talk) |
||
Line 114: | Line 114: | ||
::: AE seems inevitable, but unless we get over the SPOV===NPOV difficulty, that methinks is the primary cause of friction, that may not help much. Can we ask for a decision on whether WP:MAINSTREAM is policy, over at AE, or is that only for existing enforcement? NPOV *is* existing policy, of course, so it seems at least plausible that such a decision could happen. Anyways, Guy, add me to the list who considers you involved, and thinks that your treatment of Barleybannocks is in the same ballpark as Mangoe's efforts. You clearly have a lot of experience, but I honestly think you are mistaken here, the Sheldrake article is not NPOV, as I grok the policy. [[Special:Contributions/74.192.84.101|74.192.84.101]] ([[User talk:74.192.84.101|talk]]) 23:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC) |
::: AE seems inevitable, but unless we get over the SPOV===NPOV difficulty, that methinks is the primary cause of friction, that may not help much. Can we ask for a decision on whether WP:MAINSTREAM is policy, over at AE, or is that only for existing enforcement? NPOV *is* existing policy, of course, so it seems at least plausible that such a decision could happen. Anyways, Guy, add me to the list who considers you involved, and thinks that your treatment of Barleybannocks is in the same ballpark as Mangoe's efforts. You clearly have a lot of experience, but I honestly think you are mistaken here, the Sheldrake article is not NPOV, as I grok the policy. [[Special:Contributions/74.192.84.101|74.192.84.101]] ([[User talk:74.192.84.101|talk]]) 23:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC) |
||
:::: Once again, in science, SPOV '''is''' NPOV. That is the definition of science. This will be resolved in the end, and I confidently predict that it will be by the usual mechanism: those who can compromise and disagree respectfully, will write the article, those who cannot, will be excluded, if necessary by force. I have no dog in this fight: I am one part skeptic and one part BLP knight. My concern is fairness and accuracy, and I will make that happen with cudgels if I have to. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 00:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC) |
:::: Once again, in science, SPOV '''is''' NPOV. That is the definition of science. This will be resolved in the end, and I confidently predict that it will be by the usual mechanism: those who can compromise and disagree respectfully, will write the article, those who cannot, will be excluded, if necessary by force. I have no dog in this fight: I am one part skeptic and one part BLP knight. My concern is fairness and accuracy, and I will make that happen with cudgels if I have to. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 00:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC) |
||
Hello Guy - I wanted to see if I could clear up some of the confusion around this. Philosophical Skepticism, Scepticism, and debunking Skeptics is not the same thing as a neutral point of view. Skepticism in a broad sense is a useful and necessary tool in science. Scientists by definition must be skeptical in the true sense of the word. "Skepticism" however is also an ideology and a movement. We should not conflate the two. I believe it's a huge leap to suggest that such a brand of skepticism means the same thing as neutrality on Wikipedia. To make matters more confusing, the skeptical movement, which is comprised of atheists and debunkers of alternative medicine and claims of parapsychology, is absolutely NOT identical a NPOV when editing on wikipedia. The neutral means having 'no belief' or 'no opinion' on the subject matter. It's closer to 'objective journalism' where we try as hard as we can to remove our personal viewpoint on an issue. If what you're suggesting is true, then it means that all religious articles need to be framed from the POV of skepticism since skepticism is identical to NPOV. I think the problem here has been one of semantics. The word skepticism is used in unique contexts and instances, while NPOV only has one context - having absolutely no opinion or belief and simply stating the facts found available in resources. [[Special:Contributions/23.241.74.200|23.241.74.200]] ([[User talk:23.241.74.200|talk]]) 19:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:48, 7 December 2013
- In science, any compromise between a correct statement and a wrong statement is a wrong statement. Thanks, user:Stephan Schulz.
- Sad now. Special:Contributions/Geogre.
- My Last.fm profile
- vGuyUK on X | SceptiGuy on X
- Obligatory disclaimer
- I work for Dell Computer but nothing I say or do here is said or done on behalf of Dell. You knew that, right?
|
busy
sheldrake and NPOV
Hello Guy, you can call me 74. Saw your comment over on David_in_DC's talkpage, where you said that the problem was on Sheldrake's end. But... did you see the next sentence David wrote? About David himself being satisfied with the rewrite-by-ten-BLP-savvy-uninvolved-editors. Because at the moment, David nor myself nor various others are at all satisfied with mainspace. So when you say that the problem is on Sheldrake's end, I definitely agree, but his end is not the *only* problem. We at the moment have a problem on our end, too, methinks. Do you see the current mainspace article on sheldrake and morphic juices as fully NPOV-compliant and BLP-compliant? Or are you just pointing out that our editing-standards should not be to satisfy Sheldrake, in revising his BLP? Thanks. You can reply here if you prefer, ping my talkpage please if I don't respond promptly. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- {{sofixit}}. Just remember that what Sheldrake likes is irrelevant. Respect the individual while documenting the nonsensical beliefs he touts Guy (Help!) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I would of course, but the page is semi-protected; I may return to ask if you'll unprotect, once things settle down. Actually, it looks like folks are finally seeing the light; David is embarking on a big rewrite of the page, and pro-telepathy and pro-skeptic folks are both giving him a little rope to play with, rather than WP:NINJA reverting. We'll see if that lasts longer than the weekend, but it's very exciting to see. Long time coming. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 22:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Good luck with this. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:00, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Guy, anons cannot have watchlists. If you reply to one, and they don't get back to you, that's probably why. Barney and Vzaak will tell you, they are not sceptic activists, they just want the readership to know the truth (lowercase), and stick to reliable (again lowercase) sources. Do you classify them as activists, or do you think they stick to the definition of pillar two like a rock? If the latter, perhaps this will help "prove my claim" that some folks believe NPOV==SPOV, but not everybody does -- WP:MAINSTREAM, formerly known as WP:SPOV. The key there is what TRPoD calls 'academic' RS, and what Barney calls 'serious' RS, and what vzaak calls 'npov' RS, and what Josh-aka-jps-aka-QTx calls 'mainstream' RS. Just like you (perhaps?), Vzaak is convinced that WP:NPOV and WP:SPOV are identical. The first sentence of WP:NPOV does not read that way to me. But what I actually came over here to mention to you was this serendipitously-related factoid.
I remember Martinphi, and I also remember ScienceApologist. The two had diametrically opposing views and baited each other relentlessly, as far as I remember it. The project would be better if both had learned to compromise a little. Guy (Help!) 19:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Martinphi is gone for good, but not only is the author of WP:SPOV and of WP:MAINSTREAM still here, ScienceApologist is still here, and in fact they are busy editing Rupert Sheldrake. Tom Butler also believed that ScienceApologist was gone, so you are not alone. User:QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV/Previous_Accounts. I don't believe Josh is controlling you and Barney from afar, any more than I believe that Barney is secretly the emperor, and Vzaak is secretly his vader. The pro-sceptism folks on the Sheldrake page are an emergent phenomenon, loosely tied together by WP:FTN and by watchlists, and by leaders like Alexbrn and Mangoe and Dougweller and Bobraynor... no Susan Gerbic at all, that I have seen, just people with similar viewpoints who happen to be attracted to the same articles.
- But I do know that ScienceApologist is still working on equating SPOV with NPOV, though I sometimes seem to be the only one (besides Josh himself). Furthermore, I submit to you that the reason that myself (plus formerly David before he lost heart) and various other folks disagree so often with Vzaak and Barney (plus TRPoD before *he* lost heart the day after David left), is purely and simply that core question. Does NPOV==SkePOV? Or, does NPOV==WP:RS without eliding any of the wikipedia-first-sentence-definition-of-Reliable-Sources.
- That core conflict is the reason why Barney feels he can ignore perfectly WP:RS-compliant newspapers that say 'biologist'. Basically, this is the application of WP:MEDRS standards, to everyday WP:RS questions, such as scientific credentials, political claims, and so on. Not surprisingly, the key to WP:MEDRS, which is the ability to delete otherwise-Reliable-Sources when it comes to medical claims, was personally authored[1] by the one and only ScienceApologist. Hope this helps. I'll add you to my manual watchlist, but if you reply and I fail to respond promptly, ping my talkpage please.
- p.s. I myself once wished that NPOV was equal to SkePOV, and if we can get ArbCom to assert that is the case, and that WP:MEDRS now applies to *all* fields not just medical claims, and WP:FRINGE now applies to *all* fields not just to claims that impinge on specific sciences, then I'll be happy to join Josh and Barney and Vzaak. I'm not sure wikipedia will retain her hundreds of millions of readers per month, of course, but truth-o-pedia is an appealing concept to me personally. That said, as *currently* written, the de jure definition of NPOV does not equate to SkePOV, nor to SPOV, nor to WP:MAINSTREAM. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- good luck with putting up with the bizarre ramblings of 74 too. Definitely the Tumbleman (talk · contribs) approach of chopping up the textbook into tiny pieces and sticking it back together again at random. Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Barney, you are free to comment, when and where you wish. But when you say I am bizarre, and identical to the troll Tumbleman (that you worked hard to ban -- thanks for that btw), and that I'm so
redacted redactedthat I just chop books up before reading them... you have left the path of WP:NICE, and gone down the dark road of WP:NPA. This is not the first time you have offered your version of "friendly advice" to people, myself in the past, as well as several others besides myself.
- Barney, you are free to comment, when and where you wish. But when you say I am bizarre, and identical to the troll Tumbleman (that you worked hard to ban -- thanks for that btw), and that I'm so
- good luck with putting up with the bizarre ramblings of 74 too. Definitely the Tumbleman (talk · contribs) approach of chopping up the textbook into tiny pieces and sticking it back together again at random. Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
advice Barney has heard from me before
|
---|
|
- So my advice to you, Barney, is perfectly sound and good methinks, even if you dislike the messenger at the moment: respect pillar four, and respect other editors. WP:NICE is not up for discussion; it's one of the most pro-Wikipedia things you can do. Hope this helps. p.s. JzG can probably confirm that what I say here is true. If you'd rather take their advice, than mine, I will be just as glad. :-) HTH. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure this won't be the last time I have to remind someone of this, but skepticism is not an extreme, at the other end of the spectrum from true belief, it is the default, neutral point of view in matters of science. You can't be "pro-skepticism", you can be pro-science or you can be anti-science. Guy (Help!) 16:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I appreciate the reminder, but is sounds more like an assertion. There are skeptics, and then there are sceptics, after all. What kind are you speaking of, when you say that NPOV==skepticism-of-some-sort? As for the reminder itself -- I would definitely like to have that if you've got it -- where is the specific sentence of policy which says that NPOV==skepticism, and more importantly, the sentence which defines the sort of skepticism the policy means?
- Also, with all your talk of pro-science or anti-science, you sound like a battleground-participant, to my ears -- albeit WP:NICE about it, unlike Barney. Are you seriously saying that there are pro-science Good Guys, and there are anti-science Bad Guys, and nothing else is possible? That on wikipedia, *everybody* is one or the other, *every* content-dispute in the end *always* boils down to figuring out which side is anti-science? Perhaps you are using "skepticism" in the dictionary-sense, of WP:PROVEIT, and thus not understanding that when I use it above, it is merely shorthand for "militant scepticism" when mentioned over on the Sheldrake talkpage, or here in this conversation above.
- The most encouraging thing you said, to my ears, was when you specified "in matters of science". Because the big problem at the Sheldrake page, is that most of the pro-skepticm editors there during October and early November do not accept that limitation, to purely scientific and medical fields of inquiry. They want to be able to apply logical, skeptical, scientific standards of rigorous proof with a very broad brush indeed, including to whether or not *credentials* related to science are still "valid" as Reliably-Sourced material or can be downplayed, whether or not *political* proposals related to the proper funding-mechanism for research are "valid" as Reliably-Sourced material or can be derided, whether or not *philosophical* stances related to pedagogical and methodological portions of the philosophy-of-science can be "valid" or must instead be bagged-n-tagged, and so on, ad infinitum.
- There is at least one person who holds a similarly-strict viewpoint about *religious* questions, and insists that all the 'serious' sources agree with them, and all the Reliable Sources which disagree with them are not really Reliable. Pragmatically, I agree with WP:MEDRS being a necessary evil for claims of medical efficacy... people could die, if we aren't careful what wikipedia says about the field of medicine, after all. But nobody will die if we report that fifteen newspapers dared to call Sheldrake a biologist, even when it was proven that Nature in 2006 *failed* to call him that. WP:FRINGE is not a license to delete Reliable Sources, nor portions thereof, just because a wikipedian dislikes what the Reliable Sources actually say.
- WP:PROVEIT is definitely policy, and furthermore, I fully support that policy with no reservations. But that is just colloquial skepticism (we don't even insist on truth nor logic... just verifiability plus fact-checking-of-some-basic-type!). Colloquial skepticism is not at all related to militant-scepticm-we-must-silence-or-drive-away-the-anti-science-Bad-Guy-editors. Barney is not calling me bizarre, and threatening for the umpteenth time to ban me, because he got a call from Captain Einstein, informing him that I'm with the evil league of anti-science pro-stupid bad guys. He's lashing out because he does not yet see there is a difference between WP:PROVEIT colloquial-type-skepticism, and WP:MEDRS-applied-with-a-broad-brush-to-every-field-of-inquiry-including-basic-demographic-factoids, which is militant-skepticism-bordering-on-BLP-violation. Are you in the same boat as Barney here, that WP:NICE is not important when driving away "anti-wikipedia" folks that disagree with WP:SPOV, and if not, what boat are you in, exactly, when you say that NPOV==skepticism-of-some-unspecified-sort? 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure this won't be the last time I have to remind someone of this, but skepticism is not an extreme, at the other end of the spectrum from true belief, it is the default, neutral point of view in matters of science. You can't be "pro-skepticism", you can be pro-science or you can be anti-science. Guy (Help!) 16:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
An issue
I am ready to leave Wikipedia as a result of this.[2][3][4]
Long story short:
- An admin issues a discretionary sanctions warning;
- I ask what my misconduct has been;
- the admin indicates that he didn't realize the warning was for misconduct, while pointing to a new ArbCom draft which is not in effect;
- the admin stonewalls all attempts at further communication, refusing to admit the mistake or retract warning for misconduct;
- fellow admins protect their own kind -- including an ArbCom admin! --, refusing to remedy the situation while telling me to "drop the stick" and accept the mistreatment.
The admin shows a strong bias through harsh comments to jps over inocuous WP:EDITCONSENSUS changes that the admin construes as "reverts" amounting to a 3RR warning. According to the admin, "Technically, any change, no matter how small to the text of an article, is a revert." The same absurd rationalization was used against me. People are trying to legislate the problem away instead of dealing with the obvious individual problem with this admin.
I was very intimidated by the warning, and no doubt others were too. TheRedPenOfDoom has seemingly left, and jps has backed off editing. It's a slap in the face to those who have mindfully adhered to WP policies.
The warnings are surely a contributing factor in the recent evidence-free ArbCom case, where the complainant has cited "threats", which I can only think refers to these warnings. If I made a statement at the ArbCom case then it would have to include the problem with this admin, which may be explosive.
There does not appear to be any recourse available. RFC/ADMIN is non-binding and will just result in fellow admins rushing to defend the indefensible again. vzaak (talk) 20:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is part of the imbalance of motivation that necessitates robust policies on fringe views. If you are an advocate of a specific fringe view, it is very important to have that view portrayed favourably on Wikipedia. So fringe advocates have a much greater emotional investment in the subject and tend to be more persistent. As long as Wikipedia reflects the consensus view, it will be like a burr under their saddle. The only solution is patience, fortitude and focus. There's no point arguing that fringe view X is mainstream, so what specific text would you like to change, to what, and based on what source? Guy (Help!) 09:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- JzG, are you trying to say that Bbb23 is pro-Sheldrake and thus anti-Science, per our conversation above? Please note that Vzaak is on the pro-Science side of things, and explicitly believes that NPOV===SkePOV, with the triple equals syntax meaning identical at a deep level. Vzaak has persisted since July, and is only now becoming unhappy; as for myself, I only lasted about a month, and only on the talkpage at that! Craig Weiler is as pro-Sheldrake as a person can be, and he left after about a month. David_in_DC is no fan of Sheldrake, and he tried hardest, and lasted longest; Vzaak, perhaps you might consider the possibility that TRPoD left at the same time as David, for *that* reason? Neither of them was spooked by the warning-spam, they've both been around long enough to know it's just a spam.
- p.s. Vzaak, nobody wants you to leave (uhh... not counting Chopra and Sheldrake themselves :-) and that talkpage thing you got from Bbb23 really and truly *is* just a warning-message. AGK already told you that you can appeal the warning-message retroactively, and have it downgraded to a mere alert, in April or whatever. You don't even have to wait that long -- JzG or Mangoe or Dougweller or whoever can use their admin powers to revoke the warning this very second, if they thought it really mattered. It does not really matter. Everybody on the page, or even somewhat-recently on the page, has a similar warning by now, roughly speaking, either from Bbb23 or from 134. As long as you stick to the five pillars, you'll be fine.
- p.p.s. If you want, I can give you the TLDR explanation of why Bbb23 handed out the warnings the way they did... but you'll have to ask on my talkpage if you want that, I've already filled up JzG's disk-quota. But I suggest you take the long view -- the "remedy" for the situation is not to have Bbb23 desysopped, but to clarify the meaning of 'edit war' which jps and I and yourself are working on, and also, to clarify the distinction between 'warning' and a mere alert, which AGK and Bbb23 and others are busy working on. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Update, TRPoD has said that a combination of computer problems and vacation-time are mostly responsible for their current relatively-low degree of participation. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- In matters of science, the scientific POV is the neutral POV, and skepticism is inherent, the default position in any scientific investigation. The lack of skepticism, and rejection of the idea of the null hypothesis as a suitable default view, is a lot of what makes Sheldrake a pseudoscientist.
Warning
Hi, you recently warned me about tendentious editing. Could you give an example of a tendentious edit to the article and your reasons for thinking it is tendentious. Many thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- You are now wikilawyering. Your inability to understand the problem notwithstanding, your edits are routinely being reverted and you have (as I pointed out) falsely portrayed insistence on your own text as "compromise". The problem is your end, as normal with single-purpose accounts. So, get consensus before editing or leave it to someone else. That way you might not get banned. Guy (Help!) 20:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not wiki lawyering. I am asking for examples of the tendentious edits you feel I have made so that I may avoid this in future. As far as I can see, my edits improved the (currently appalling) article and brought it more in line with the multiple reliable sources detailed extensively on the talk page. Indeed, I was thanked by another administrator for the very edits you have now reverted. Grateful if you could explain what exactly you have a problem with. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- And since I gave one with the warning, your profession of innocence won't wash. Like I say, I am trying to make it possible for you to remain editing Wikipedia. You have caused sufficient drama and reversion by now on the one article that you edit, a ban is really the only other option. This is a long way from being the first time Wikipedia has gone round this loop, don't take it personally. Guy (Help!) 21:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not professing my innocence. I am asking for an example of some tendentious edits so that I might not repeat my error. Your refusal to provide such an example is strange since if what you say is true, you should be able to produce numerous examples rather than none. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The way not to repeat the error is to discuss changes and achieve consensus first. I am not in the least bit confident that arguing the toss about whether one particular edit meets the standard of tendentiousness in your opinion will save either of us any time, and it will piss me off. So, take it at face value: I, an experienced Wikipedian with a non-trivial history in handling sensitive biographies, including as an email response volunteer, have looked at you edits and I concur with the judgment of others that they are tendentious. Guy (Help!) 21:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's hard not to repeat the error when you won't tell me what it is in any specific way. Why not just pick a few edits you feel match your description and say a few words about them. It seems only fair since you are threatening to ban me - something you surely would not have done were there no actual examples of what you claim. Thus I am genuinely perplexed and asking for some clarification which should cause you little trouble to provide. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The talk page has hundreds of kilobytes of people trying patiently to explain to you where you are going wrong, it hasn't worked yet. Instead, let me give you a very simple rule that you can follow without any difficulty. If you want a sentence or para in the article to change, create a section, put the old text and the new text, identify the sources that support the change, and wait for discussion. If the debate goes agianst you, accept it and drop it. Do not raise more than one at a time. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The problem being, of course, that the implicit falsity you have just inserted into the article has no consensus either, and has multiple reliable sources showing it to be false. All this has been explained to you, and others, on the talk page many times. Thus you appear to believe that hundreds of kbs of emotionally charged, and very poor, arguments from editors can override multiple reliable sources. I can't see the policy/guidelines that support such a thing. Perhaps you could direct me to it. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion is closed. You should think long and hard about exactly how clever it is to piss off the admins. Right now, I am wondering if prolonging the agony of your presence is worth it. I have been here before, more times than I can count. Go back to the talk page and ensure that any changes you propose are specific, actionable, supported by reliable sources, and do have broad consensus. That is all. Guy (Help!) 22:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The problem being, of course, that the implicit falsity you have just inserted into the article has no consensus either, and has multiple reliable sources showing it to be false. All this has been explained to you, and others, on the talk page many times. Thus you appear to believe that hundreds of kbs of emotionally charged, and very poor, arguments from editors can override multiple reliable sources. I can't see the policy/guidelines that support such a thing. Perhaps you could direct me to it. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The talk page has hundreds of kilobytes of people trying patiently to explain to you where you are going wrong, it hasn't worked yet. Instead, let me give you a very simple rule that you can follow without any difficulty. If you want a sentence or para in the article to change, create a section, put the old text and the new text, identify the sources that support the change, and wait for discussion. If the debate goes agianst you, accept it and drop it. Do not raise more than one at a time. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's hard not to repeat the error when you won't tell me what it is in any specific way. Why not just pick a few edits you feel match your description and say a few words about them. It seems only fair since you are threatening to ban me - something you surely would not have done were there no actual examples of what you claim. Thus I am genuinely perplexed and asking for some clarification which should cause you little trouble to provide. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The way not to repeat the error is to discuss changes and achieve consensus first. I am not in the least bit confident that arguing the toss about whether one particular edit meets the standard of tendentiousness in your opinion will save either of us any time, and it will piss me off. So, take it at face value: I, an experienced Wikipedian with a non-trivial history in handling sensitive biographies, including as an email response volunteer, have looked at you edits and I concur with the judgment of others that they are tendentious. Guy (Help!) 21:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not professing my innocence. I am asking for an example of some tendentious edits so that I might not repeat my error. Your refusal to provide such an example is strange since if what you say is true, you should be able to produce numerous examples rather than none. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- And since I gave one with the warning, your profession of innocence won't wash. Like I say, I am trying to make it possible for you to remain editing Wikipedia. You have caused sufficient drama and reversion by now on the one article that you edit, a ban is really the only other option. This is a long way from being the first time Wikipedia has gone round this loop, don't take it personally. Guy (Help!) 21:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not wiki lawyering. I am asking for examples of the tendentious edits you feel I have made so that I may avoid this in future. As far as I can see, my edits improved the (currently appalling) article and brought it more in line with the multiple reliable sources detailed extensively on the talk page. Indeed, I was thanked by another administrator for the very edits you have now reverted. Grateful if you could explain what exactly you have a problem with. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Guy, if you don't mind. I've thought that Barley's edits, while not perfect, were generally helpful to the article. And although they were changed I don't really think that they were reverted in their entirety. In this case it was his edits to the article which moved past the war over the POV template to actually trying to improve the article. Personally I think he's more disruptive on the talk page than he is in the article. Also whilst I don't want to question your impartiality so please excuse me, but I think you might be a bit too involved to impose discretionary sanctions, given that you are actively engaged in content discussions on the talk page. Also for full disclosure, the I've been talking to the user on my talk page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- And who do you think is best to handle the situation Callenecc (talk · contribs) - an experience editor who is clearly understands the subject and the dispute, or some other admin from outside who arrives with the presupposition that "these things resolve themselves by discussion because everyone must be reasonable, and therefore will eventually agree", combined with the post-modernist view that "both sides must be wrong"? (( preceding unsigned comment added by as of 11:48, 6 December 2013 by User:Barney the barney barney ))
- Or a whole bunch of uninvolved admins who will look at the evidence presented and decide on what is the best outcome: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- AE seems inevitable, but unless we get over the SPOV===NPOV difficulty, that methinks is the primary cause of friction, that may not help much. Can we ask for a decision on whether WP:MAINSTREAM is policy, over at AE, or is that only for existing enforcement? NPOV *is* existing policy, of course, so it seems at least plausible that such a decision could happen. Anyways, Guy, add me to the list who considers you involved, and thinks that your treatment of Barleybannocks is in the same ballpark as Mangoe's efforts. You clearly have a lot of experience, but I honestly think you are mistaken here, the Sheldrake article is not NPOV, as I grok the policy. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
- Once again, in science, SPOV is NPOV. That is the definition of science. This will be resolved in the end, and I confidently predict that it will be by the usual mechanism: those who can compromise and disagree respectfully, will write the article, those who cannot, will be excluded, if necessary by force. I have no dog in this fight: I am one part skeptic and one part BLP knight. My concern is fairness and accuracy, and I will make that happen with cudgels if I have to. Guy (Help!) 00:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- AE seems inevitable, but unless we get over the SPOV===NPOV difficulty, that methinks is the primary cause of friction, that may not help much. Can we ask for a decision on whether WP:MAINSTREAM is policy, over at AE, or is that only for existing enforcement? NPOV *is* existing policy, of course, so it seems at least plausible that such a decision could happen. Anyways, Guy, add me to the list who considers you involved, and thinks that your treatment of Barleybannocks is in the same ballpark as Mangoe's efforts. You clearly have a lot of experience, but I honestly think you are mistaken here, the Sheldrake article is not NPOV, as I grok the policy. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello Guy - I wanted to see if I could clear up some of the confusion around this. Philosophical Skepticism, Scepticism, and debunking Skeptics is not the same thing as a neutral point of view. Skepticism in a broad sense is a useful and necessary tool in science. Scientists by definition must be skeptical in the true sense of the word. "Skepticism" however is also an ideology and a movement. We should not conflate the two. I believe it's a huge leap to suggest that such a brand of skepticism means the same thing as neutrality on Wikipedia. To make matters more confusing, the skeptical movement, which is comprised of atheists and debunkers of alternative medicine and claims of parapsychology, is absolutely NOT identical a NPOV when editing on wikipedia. The neutral means having 'no belief' or 'no opinion' on the subject matter. It's closer to 'objective journalism' where we try as hard as we can to remove our personal viewpoint on an issue. If what you're suggesting is true, then it means that all religious articles need to be framed from the POV of skepticism since skepticism is identical to NPOV. I think the problem here has been one of semantics. The word skepticism is used in unique contexts and instances, while NPOV only has one context - having absolutely no opinion or belief and simply stating the facts found available in resources. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC)