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A request for move has been initiated at [[Admiralty Island languages]]. --[[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 13:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
== Notice of Arbitration Decision ==
{{uw-sanctions|topic=b}} [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 23:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
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Revision as of 23:00, 24 August 2010
Saturated model
I put a note at WT:WPM asking if anyone knows anything about the concept of saturated models that you were looking for, and would be interested in writing it up. --Trovatore (talk) 00:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Restructuring of phonological charts
Greetings once again, JorisvS! I have noticed that you have been restructuring some of the phonological charts I have been creating. I was just wondering why you are restructuring them in that way, why that order in the manner of articulation? Personally, I followed the layout put forth in the International Phonetic Alphabet (2005) as published by the International Phonetic Association, with slight changes, but if your order is based on something else, I would love to see it. Pure interest. -- Llonydd (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- First, I'd like to mention that when the restructuring is complete, it will nearly have the layout given in that chart, much more than it has now or than it had. The reason I put the nasals above the plosives is that the plosives-affricates-fricatives make such a fitting order and the nasals are, like plosives, stops (also, it's good to notice that the affricates don't appear in the IPA chart at all). The tables on the Archi language and Avar language pages give examples of the endresult. --JorisvS (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, not really. It seems both the old and to-be versions of the table follow the IPA chart just as much (or just as little, as the chart is very basic). The endresult will, however, be more in line with the typical consonant table I've come across here at Wikipedia, thus making it a little easier to interpret for people used to reading those tables. --JorisvS (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answer. But well, I really think there should be agreed upon one single standard here on Wikipedia. There are so many different orders, and some of the phonological charts also use very old terminology. -- Llonydd (talk) 05:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, quite a number of chart layouts can be found here. And that's why, at least every here and there, I've been bringing them in line with this 'typical' outline I showed you. And certainly, those old terminologies should go, their rather bothersome/confusing. You're welcome to help! --JorisvS (talk) 09:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- In the past, I've also gone through Wikipedia articles to bring them in line with some standard or other. In the process, I've met with occasional resistance in such a way that I don't believe we can have one rigidly imposed standard. For example, I typically prefer nasals to be above plosives, though it may be more important to indicate their patterning with other sonorants. At Swedish phonology, the chart has approximants between plosives and fricatives presumably because it then allows a quick visual representation of voiced plosive lenition. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 06:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, quite a number of chart layouts can be found here. And that's why, at least every here and there, I've been bringing them in line with this 'typical' outline I showed you. And certainly, those old terminologies should go, their rather bothersome/confusing. You're welcome to help! --JorisvS (talk) 09:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answer. But well, I really think there should be agreed upon one single standard here on Wikipedia. There are so many different orders, and some of the phonological charts also use very old terminology. -- Llonydd (talk) 05:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Administrative evil
If it's a term that's basically been coined and defined by a single book, then it's likely a neologism, which isn't an appropriate subject for a Wikipedia article. You would really need to provide sources showing that this term is in wider use beyond just the one book. NawlinWiki (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- See WP:RS and WP:N. NawlinWiki (talk) 19:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- Mhm, well, it sounds like "However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable third-party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable source" [italics mine] is the case: both Harvard and Zimbardo are quite reputable, I'd say [1] (that's actually the way I got learned of the concept).
Though, admittedly, maybe I didn't do my homework quite at the right time, but a little googling turned up 21.500 hits, including the following (though I don't have time for a more thorough search right now), including a number by the same authors, but published in various locations that should be reputable.
- Leadership, Administrative Evil and the Ethics of Incompetence: Lessons from Katrina and Iraq, Reflections on the Difficulties of Cultural, Organizational and Individual Reparation, The Problem of Administrative Evil in the Universal Culture of Technical Rationality
- The Etiology of Administrative Evil
- PERCEPTIONS OF CORRUPTION AS DISTRUST? CAUSE AND EFFECT IN ATTITUDES TOWARDS GOVERNMENT
- Watching the Borders of Administrative Evil
So, a quick and scanty search points to an already much broader use of the term. So it might be best to give it at least the benefit of the doubt. I'll look more closely at it later.--JorisvS (talk) 19:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry if I'm jumping in the middle here, but I saw the discussion and thought I'd add my 2¢ worth. A quick review of the links provided shows that the term "administrative evil" has been coined and promulgated by Adams and Balfour, the authors of the book cited in the article. Four of the six articles above relate directly to Adams in various publications and seminars. The other two links refer to reviews (and dismissals) of Adams' and Balfour's thesis. I'm not sure this qualifies as giving the neologism "widespread use". WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, as I said, there's also more to look at on Google (which I still have to do). But it is an interesting question what "widespread use" exactly means, when exactly is it that sufficient people have caught up the term? (Because in this case other authors have caught up the term, but (probably) still in reaction to the original authors.)
- Also, I found the {{notability}} tag. Couldn't this be a better tag, at least for the time being, per the text on WP:N? --JorisvS (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
(In general) It would have been nice if we could've had a decent discussion about eachother's arguments to at least come to an understanding thereof. Now it was simply "look here, then it's self-evident", even though it doesn't make it self-evident. Also, to bluntly ignore requests for a more proper explanation of one's arguments is simply rude, no matter one's edit count. I hope next time there can be decent discussion. --JorisvS (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for cleaning this article, but Laki is not a language. According to Ethnologue and Britannica it is a subdialect of Kurdish language. --Calak1988 (talk) 18:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the situation is a little more complex than that. First of all, yes, Britannica indeed states it to be a subdialect of Kurdish, however, without it telling about the Kurdish dialect it is supposed to be a subdialect of; without, in fact, telling much about Kurdish at all, so we can't learn much more than that it does say that.
- When we look at Ethnologue we can learn a bit more, though. It does not classify Laki as a dialect (let alone a subdialect) of Kurdish, merely as Kurdish. The difference is at first subtle: as Ethnologue does not explicitly state it to be a language or a dialect within Kurdish it could be either, but when we look at the other members of Kurdish that Ethnologue gives, we see those (Northern, Central, and Southern) classified as members of the macrolanguage Kurdish. Ethnologue only classifies languages as members of a macrolanguage when its members are typically considered (e.g. politically or socially) dialects of a unified language that, in fact, lack sufficient mutual intelligibility, and thus, scientifically, should be considered separate languages. --JorisvS (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- On the Kurdish language page the following can be read:
- "Since 1932 most Kurds have used the Roman script to write Kurmanji.... Sorani is normally written in an adapted form of the Arabic script.... Reasons for describing Kurmanji and Sorani as 'dialects' of one language are their common origin and the fact that this usage reflects the sense of ethnic identity and unity among the Kurds. From a linguistic or at least a grammatical point of view, however, Kurmanji and Sorani differ as much from each other as English and German, and it would seem appropriate to refer to them as languages. For example, Sorani has neither gender nor case-endings, whereas Kurmanji has both.... Differences in vocabulary and pronunciation are not as great as between German and English, but they are still considerable." (italics, wikilinks, and bold type mine).
- I must make one comment, though: Using a common origin as a reason for considering varieties dialects is bullshit, for then English, Russian, Greek, Persian, Hindi, and of course Kurdish itself should all be considered dialects of the same Indo-European language, which is, of course, nonsense. --JorisvS (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Changing redirects
Hello JorisvS, thanks for your contributions. By the way, regarding edits like this, I should point out that there is usually no need to change links from redirects to direct links. Thanks, rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
AfD nomination of Swadesh list of Tsezic languages
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Swadesh list of Tsezic languages. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").
Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Swadesh list of Tsezic languages. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).
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Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
You reverted my deletion of insignificant link from Tibetan language article with an unfriendly comment. Please don't behave like that. It's not an issue of liking or not at all. If we add a link to every country where Tibetan is spoken, then we'll have to add India too. Gantuya eng (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't take such offense, that wasn't intended. Your first edit summary was rather opaque, and could've meant any number of things; for quite a number of people it may well be an issue of liking. If you have good reasons for removing it, no problem. But that is the question: is it really insignificant? Okay, it stands out, doesn't necessarily have to be bad; it wouldn't really stand out in the current version, though. I don't think clear inclusion criteria were used; adding also languages of Nepal and India could be argued. Do you want to discuss it? --JorisvS (talk) 09:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Serbo-Croatian
Hi Joris,
You might be interested to keep an eye on South Slavic languages as well. Same issue with deleting SC going on there. — kwami (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Substing Welcome Templates
Just a quick note, can you make sure you subst welcome templates when you add them to a users talk page? Thanks =] ·Add§hore· Talk To Me! 18:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of its "special way". No problem next time. --JorisvS (talk) 19:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, would you be so kind as to give us support!
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Hello, I hope you are doing fine and I sincerely apologize for this intrusion. I have just read your profile and you seem a very learned person and interested in (small) languages and cultures so maybe I am not bothering you and you will help us... I'm a member of an association "Amical de la Viquipèdia" which is trying to get some recognition as a Catalan Chapter but this has not been approved up to this moment because it does not belong to one state. We would appreciate your support, visible if you stick this on your first page: Wikimedia CAT. Thanks again, wishing you a great summer, take care! Capsot (talk) 10:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't quite get the (non-)existence of some chapters, but especially don't get this "because it does not belong to one state" thing, so:
- --JorisvS (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.
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If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. —DoRD (talk) 14:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Croatian grammar
Hi,
Just a heads-up for Croatian grammar. Several-month-long discussion on merging this with Serbian grammar and Serbian and Croatian grammar/Serbo-Croatian grammar (the latter probably best because Bosnian and Montenegrin redirect there too), with notices given at the languages wikiproject. However, Croatian grammar keeps getting reverted into a content fork, with the argument that it isn't a fork if you give it a different name. I made a stub of what I thought it would be that wouldn't be a fork, but that gets reverted too. I don't really care, though, if it's s.t. along those lines (itself really just a sop and probably mergeable into Croatian language) or a rd. as people had originally agreed. — kwami (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Breton language
Hi Joris,
Can you translate a short phrase into English for me, please? It says 'Breiz da Virviken Bretagne'. I am going to use it in an article about Breton philately. Thank you, --Michael Romanov (talk) 00:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- How come you ask me? I don't speak Breton, nor have I implied such anywhere. --JorisvS (talk) 09:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- I believe Breiz da Virviken is "Brittany for Ever". The root is birviken (or just biken); the b → v after da "to". Bretagne is just French. — kwami (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ventureño article
Thanks very much for helping clean up the Ventureño language article. May I ask that you please remake separate columns for palatal and post-alveolar places of articulation? Every Chumashist (including myself) treats the places of articulation as non-interchangeable. I've been studying the language over 5 years now at a major research university, and I agree with the other Chumashists: different columns.
I'll apologize in advance if this seems overly-detailed, but it is important to accurately represent the language. And I do appreciate all the help in cleaning things up and making the article look just spectacular. I would like to include orthographic symbols next to the IPA characters, and would very much welcome help with that if you would like to assist further on the article. Alaquwel (talk) 07:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Question: why are they so distinct when there is no contrast between sounds of these two different articulatory places? --JorisvS (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- First, because the difference between a palatal fricative and a post-alveolar one is audibly different. Take for example English: while we have no phonemic palatal fricative no linguist (or very few) will argue that a palatal fricative and the post-alveolar are interchangeable in the language. Second, because the velar fricative can have realizations that range from the palatal to the uvular in Ventureño. If there were a palatal realization of a fricative in Ventureño, it would be an allophone of the velar fricative, not the post-alveolar. Along those lines, if the reasoning between combining post-alveolar and palatal places or articulation is one of economy, then I'm not sure how one could tell whether to combine those two places or articulation, or the palatal and velar places of articulation. There are other reasons to separate the two places of articulation, such as considering the interplay between alveolar and post-alveolar positions of articulation in sibilant harmony, but these reasons are more complex. Finally, I think it's also worth considering that Drs. Kathryn Klar, Suzanne Wash, Tsuyoshi Ono, Richard Applegate, Kenneth Whistler, and Marianne Mithun all treat the post-alveolar and palatal places of articulation as non-interchangable. I hope you can see that much thought from multiple, very qualified linguists has gone into why the palatal position should stand on its own. Alaquwel (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- That there is a palatal allophone of the velar fricative is a good point, and should be properly noted in the article; as for invoking authority: that is not an argument, not even a weak one, and merely detracts from the good points. I believe a phonetic postalveolar approximant [ʒ˕] will often be interpreted as phonemic /j/, something that definitely cannot be said for the fricatives. I don't know about this in the Ventureño case, though.
- Please, tell me more about these more complex reasons. --JorisvS (talk) 11:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- First, because the difference between a palatal fricative and a post-alveolar one is audibly different. Take for example English: while we have no phonemic palatal fricative no linguist (or very few) will argue that a palatal fricative and the post-alveolar are interchangeable in the language. Second, because the velar fricative can have realizations that range from the palatal to the uvular in Ventureño. If there were a palatal realization of a fricative in Ventureño, it would be an allophone of the velar fricative, not the post-alveolar. Along those lines, if the reasoning between combining post-alveolar and palatal places or articulation is one of economy, then I'm not sure how one could tell whether to combine those two places or articulation, or the palatal and velar places of articulation. There are other reasons to separate the two places of articulation, such as considering the interplay between alveolar and post-alveolar positions of articulation in sibilant harmony, but these reasons are more complex. Finally, I think it's also worth considering that Drs. Kathryn Klar, Suzanne Wash, Tsuyoshi Ono, Richard Applegate, Kenneth Whistler, and Marianne Mithun all treat the post-alveolar and palatal places of articulation as non-interchangable. I hope you can see that much thought from multiple, very qualified linguists has gone into why the palatal position should stand on its own. Alaquwel (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Admiralty Islands languages
A request for move has been initiated at Admiralty Island languages. --Taivo (talk) 13:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Notice of Arbitration Decision
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