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@Jimbo, whether something is or is not published elsewhere makes no difference to whether it is legal to publish it. I'm sure you don't think we can publish a photograph from BBC News just because the article has gone away; why is the content of the article any different? [[Special:Contributions/88.104.27.2|88.104.27.2]] ([[User talk:88.104.27.2|talk]]) 20:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
@Jimbo, whether something is or is not published elsewhere makes no difference to whether it is legal to publish it. I'm sure you don't think we can publish a photograph from BBC News just because the article has gone away; why is the content of the article any different? [[Special:Contributions/88.104.27.2|88.104.27.2]] ([[User talk:88.104.27.2|talk]]) 20:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:I thought it was closer to automatic than that, but I confess I haven't been an active user of the archive option. I thought the goal was to include in the cite template both the live and the archived url, and a reader clicking on it would automatically get the original url if still live, and would only get the archive if the original is dead. If it isn't the process, it should be. Then no live link would ever be deprived of any meaningful amounts of traffic. The only traffic to the archive would be the original copy,and occasional tests to ensure it still exists.But it would ensure that copyright holders would still get traffic to their site as long as the site exists, and only if dead, would traffic be diverted to the archive. Am I misunderstanding how it works?--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
:I thought it was closer to automatic than that, but I confess I haven't been an active user of the archive option. I thought the goal was to include in the cite template both the live and the archived url, and a reader clicking on it would automatically get the original url if still live, and would only get the archive if the original is dead. If it isn't the process, it should be. Then no live link would ever be deprived of any meaningful amounts of traffic. The only traffic to the archive would be the original copy,and occasional tests to ensure it still exists.But it would ensure that copyright holders would still get traffic to their site as long as the site exists, and only if dead, would traffic be diverted to the archive. Am I misunderstanding how it works?--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
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::Phil yes, sorry, you are misunderstanding. Have a look at refs on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Garrett_(character)&oldid=544182971] for example; it has both the orig and the archive, as in... |
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>G., Robert (June 2011). [http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/06/cwc-garrett/ "Characters with Character: Garrett"]. Blistered Thumbs. [http://web.archive.org/web/20110820161446/http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/06/cwc-garrett/ Archived] from the original on August 20, 2011<span class="printonly">. http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/06/cwc-garrett/</span>.</span></small> |
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::[[Special:Contributions/88.104.27.2|88.104.27.2]] ([[User talk:88.104.27.2|talk]]) 20:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
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We wouldn't ''link'' to a photo that we thought contravened copyright either - or the text from an old news article. {{xt| if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link}} - [[WP:COPYLINK]]. [[Special:Contributions/88.104.27.2|88.104.27.2]] ([[User talk:88.104.27.2|talk]]) 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
We wouldn't ''link'' to a photo that we thought contravened copyright either - or the text from an old news article. {{xt| if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link}} - [[WP:COPYLINK]]. [[Special:Contributions/88.104.27.2|88.104.27.2]] ([[User talk:88.104.27.2|talk]]) 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 20:44, 19 March 2013
(Manual archive list) |
My talk page
Hello Jimmy! Can you please tell me why my talk page is red? Yusuf Tazim (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
- The link was red because no one had ever left you a message. I left youa welcome message so your talk page link is now blue. A redlink like that means that the page has not been created. GB fan 16:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
violating copyright laws by linking to archived sites when original site is still live
Some editors believe you should have archive links in references even when the main article its archiving is still there. [1] I believe this violates copyright law, plus makes no sense at all. If someone takes their copyrighted material and puts it elsewhere, depriving them of ad banner revenue, then I assume its illegal. They might not mind someone archiving stuff they no longer have on their site, but they certainly don't want people ignoring their active content, and getting it elsewhere. Dream Focus 15:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Surely it is the content that is copyright, not an url pointing to it? pablo 16:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- This may be an interesting issue if WMF takes over WebCite. It could raise copyright issues if WMF servers archive and offer copyrighted material from other websites.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Pablo, Wikipedia would not allow a link to a site that hosted an entire book on it in violation of copyright laws. Same thing here. No way this is justified under fair use laws. Dream Focus 17:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- The laws are not very clear. To use a dead tree analogy, libraries are allowed to archive and make available books that are still available for purchase. Presumably that also deprives authors of income, and yet those library collections are undoubtedly valid. Recent cases have argued that the nature of the internet is such that users have an implied license to copy and archive the publicly available material unless the copyright holder takes active measures to prevent it (such as excluding bots with robots.txt or asking for archived pages to be removed). It's not really a settled issue though. Internet archives would also argue that proving a site contained XYZ as of a specific date is a valuable service even if the site still contains XYZ as of today. Such evidence of website histories have been introduced in court cases to establish things like precedence for trademark claims. That said, its still a gray area, and many copyright holders get upset about archiving services for many of the reasons you mentioned. At present, Wikipedia operates on the presumption that such sites are legally valid and generally encourages linking to them to help avoid future linkrot. In particular, many people use the on-demand archiving service, WebCitation (e.g. WP:Using WebCite) to establish an archive link around the same time the reference is added. Dragons flight (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Definitely I agree with Dragons flight; however, the notion of Wikipedia taking over Webcite has worried me because I don't know what happens when WMF is both the reuser and the archivist. Besides, I hope that WebCite will find a way to stay afloat in the hands of people who are more determined to hold onto their content. Wnt (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- The laws are not very clear. To use a dead tree analogy, libraries are allowed to archive and make available books that are still available for purchase. Presumably that also deprives authors of income, and yet those library collections are undoubtedly valid. Recent cases have argued that the nature of the internet is such that users have an implied license to copy and archive the publicly available material unless the copyright holder takes active measures to prevent it (such as excluding bots with robots.txt or asking for archived pages to be removed). It's not really a settled issue though. Internet archives would also argue that proving a site contained XYZ as of a specific date is a valuable service even if the site still contains XYZ as of today. Such evidence of website histories have been introduced in court cases to establish things like precedence for trademark claims. That said, its still a gray area, and many copyright holders get upset about archiving services for many of the reasons you mentioned. At present, Wikipedia operates on the presumption that such sites are legally valid and generally encourages linking to them to help avoid future linkrot. In particular, many people use the on-demand archiving service, WebCitation (e.g. WP:Using WebCite) to establish an archive link around the same time the reference is added. Dragons flight (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
IANAL, but I think there are zero legal implications for linking to an archiving service rather than the original article. That does NOT mean that we should do it, it just means that the argument that we must not because it is illegal is one that I don't find persuasive. I think there are many good reasons to link to the original whenever it is available. I can think of no good arguments for not linking to the original. (I can understand an argument that perhaps we should link to the original and an archive, particularly if the original source is likely to go away, although I'd need to be persuaded with more facts.
I'd be interested in a bot which constantly crawls Wikipedia archiving every source and gathering metadata about when it crawled Wikipedia and what the source said at that time, automatically and repeatedly. In the event that a page goes 404 (and some other situations, like a human deciding that the page no longer accurately represents the original in some way), it could semi-automatically (i.e. with human oversight) edit the page to link to the archive, leaving a note on the talk page about what it did and way. If such a bot/service did not publish the page to the public until the original page vanished, we'd minimize the ethical questions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- This is a very grey area, definitely - and one worth considering. The apparent current idea, that we like linking to these archives, may conflict with WP:COPYLINK. I know that these archival sites try very hard to do the ethical thing. Webcite's website says, the WebCite® initiative is advocacy and research in the area of copyright. We aim to develop a system which balances the legitimate rights of the copyright-holders (e.g. cited authors and publishers) against the "fair use" rights of society to archive and access important material. We also advocate and lobby for a non-restrictive interpretation of copyright which does not impede digital preservation of our cultural heritage, or free and open flow of ideas. This should not be seen as a threat by copyright-holders - we aim to keep material which is currently openly accessible online accessible for future generations without creating economic harm to the copyright holder. [2], and Wayback says informed by the American Library Association's Library Bill of Rights http://www.ala.org/work/freedom/lbr.html, the Society of American Archivists Code of Ethics http://www.archivists.org/governance/handbook/app_ethics.asp, the International Federation of Library Association's Internet Manifesto http://www.unesco.org/webworld/news/2002/ifla_manifesto.rtf, as well as applicable law [3]. Honourable goals, but that's talking about 'fair use' in the American way; there is considerable debate over whether such ideas are permitted in other countries. For examples of legal problems, see Internet Archive#Controversies and legal disputes.
- I'm not sure of the answer - but if we're not sure, perhaps we shouldn't be linking to them at all. 88.104.27.2 (talk) 20:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
@Jimbo, whether something is or is not published elsewhere makes no difference to whether it is legal to publish it. I'm sure you don't think we can publish a photograph from BBC News just because the article has gone away; why is the content of the article any different? 88.104.27.2 (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- I thought it was closer to automatic than that, but I confess I haven't been an active user of the archive option. I thought the goal was to include in the cite template both the live and the archived url, and a reader clicking on it would automatically get the original url if still live, and would only get the archive if the original is dead. If it isn't the process, it should be. Then no live link would ever be deprived of any meaningful amounts of traffic. The only traffic to the archive would be the original copy,and occasional tests to ensure it still exists.But it would ensure that copyright holders would still get traffic to their site as long as the site exists, and only if dead, would traffic be diverted to the archive. Am I misunderstanding how it works?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Phil yes, sorry, you are misunderstanding. Have a look at refs on [4] for example; it has both the orig and the archive, as in...
- G., Robert (June 2011). "Characters with Character: Garrett". Blistered Thumbs. Archived from the original on August 20, 2011. http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/06/cwc-garrett/.
- 88.104.27.2 (talk) 20:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
We wouldn't link to a photo that we thought contravened copyright either - or the text from an old news article. if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link - WP:COPYLINK. 88.104.27.2 (talk) 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- It says at Wikipedia:Link_rot#Web_archive_services you should do this to avoid pay walls, so people can read copyrighted material without having to pay for it, which the owners certainly don't want. Dream Focus 20:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
implications
As book publishers are losing revenue and e-books are the way to go how will this affect our referencing? Pass a Method talk 20:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Why would it have any implications? It's all about verifiability. If the reference provides enough information about an e-book such that an interested user could track it down, buy it if necessary, and verify the reference, it can stand as a reference.--ukexpat (talk) 20:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- I asked about this some time ago, and as long as the E-book is published by a reliable publisher and not a vanity press or a self publishing book site, they are the same as paper books as far as referencing. Take into consideration all of the other factors to weigh the strength of the source, but being an e-book is not an issue.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)