Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) →Holiday: new section |
|||
Line 93: | Line 93: | ||
:::::I'm sorry if you feel that these subjects are being treated unevenly. The discussions on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films]] and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Bollywood films (2nd nomination)]] went very differently, obviously. I am not familiar enough with the sources of either to really have an opinion on why that happened or whether that was fair. But I've seen articles that I thought were deleted for less than stellar reasons and others that I felt should be deleted which were kept. I know that it can be frustrating, but I do believe the model works overall. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
:::::I'm sorry if you feel that these subjects are being treated unevenly. The discussions on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films]] and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Bollywood films (2nd nomination)]] went very differently, obviously. I am not familiar enough with the sources of either to really have an opinion on why that happened or whether that was fair. But I've seen articles that I thought were deleted for less than stellar reasons and others that I felt should be deleted which were kept. I know that it can be frustrating, but I do believe the model works overall. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
||
::::::Er, Wangond, I misunderstood the direction of your question. I put the article up for deletion because (as per my nomination) I believe it fundamentally does not meet the policy requirement of [[WP:V]]. The fact the the people supplying the numbers in question are anonymous, the numbers appear fabricated on guesswork and the site provides no real explanation as to veracity (apart from unsupported exultations that their numbers are incredibly accurate) was glossed over by the majority of opinions in the AfD because enough Wikipedian enthusiasts would rather overlook policy rather than loose an article they like (see [[WP:IAR]]). The outcome is not my doing or that of the closing administrator, it's just how consensus works on Wikipedia which I believe is for the good in the long term. The current issue of copyright is a separate discussion and not something that can be glossed over due to popularity. If you want to see better consistency for this type of list article I suggest you wait for Moonriddengirl's essay on list copyright to be issued and then consider running a request for comment if you wish to reach a meaningful consensus on how it should be interpreted along with [[WP:V]] for the dubious sources in question. Cheers [[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 08:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
::::::Er, Wangond, I misunderstood the direction of your question. I put the article up for deletion because (as per my nomination) I believe it fundamentally does not meet the policy requirement of [[WP:V]]. The fact the the people supplying the numbers in question are anonymous, the numbers appear fabricated on guesswork and the site provides no real explanation as to veracity (apart from unsupported exultations that their numbers are incredibly accurate) was glossed over by the majority of opinions in the AfD because enough Wikipedian enthusiasts would rather overlook policy rather than loose an article they like (see [[WP:IAR]]). The outcome is not my doing or that of the closing administrator, it's just how consensus works on Wikipedia which I believe is for the good in the long term. The current issue of copyright is a separate discussion and not something that can be glossed over due to popularity. If you want to see better consistency for this type of list article I suggest you wait for Moonriddengirl's essay on list copyright to be issued and then consider running a request for comment if you wish to reach a meaningful consensus on how it should be interpreted along with [[WP:V]] for the dubious sources in question. Cheers [[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 08:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
||
== Holiday == |
|||
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/feb/19/interview-jimmy-wales-wikipedia Careful readers] will note that I'm going to be on a bit of a holiday for a couple of weeks. I'll still be around now and then doing a little bit, but not a lot of heavy lifting for a bit.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 09:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:00, 19 February 2011
(Manual archive list) |
Is Wikipedia vandalism a crime?
I realize that you are not a lawyer, but I am curious what your thoughts are on this. Do you think vandalism of Wikipedia is a crime under the Florida Vandalism Law (since the Wikimedia servers are in Florida)? According to [1], vandalism is defined as defacing, damaging, or destroying something that's not yours without the owner's permission. Vandalism is defacing Wikipedia content, though the "without the owner's permission" part is difficult, as Wikipedia openly gives anyone permission to edit Wikipedia, but clearly states that vandalism is not permitted. Do you think that the current policies and founding principles of Wikipedia give people "permission" to vandalize Wikipedia? If not, do you think that persistent vandals should be prosecuted under the Florida Vandalism Law, or would that violate WP:NLT? Prosecuting vandals would not be an infringement of free speech since one of the founding principles of Wikipedia is that it is an online encyclopedia, not a public forum. Vandalism of Wikipedia would only be a misdemeanor under this law since reverting the vandalism costs no money. Although you are not lawyer, what are your thoughts on this? --Nat682 (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
- Vandalism doesn't damage anything. It just adds unwanted commits to the records. The real-world equivalent would be to say someone should be prosecuted for putting up a poster. It may be annoying, but all you have to do is take it down. Throwaway85 (talk) 18:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
- Terms of service says "Terms of service (commonly abbreviated as ToS or TOS)[1] are rules which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Unless in violation of consumer protection laws, such terms are usually legally binding." Wikimedia sites currently lack a TOS. Having one might help such things as teachers assigning students the task of vandalizing Wikipedia. (We have http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use; but it only deals with the copy-left copyright licence.) WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- Throwaway85, vandalism can damage and has damaged reputations, as well as putting users' safety at risk. It is not something to take lightly; I can graffiti pretty pictures on a wall or I can graffiti someone's social security number on a wall or libelous material about Justin Bieber on a music store window. Obviously one is more serious than another. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 01:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- In this example we're really talking about two different things. The "vandalism" aspect wouldn't be a crime, however when one breaks wikipedia rules on vandalism, one could also break real laws like libel, defamation etc.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- In the legal sense, vandalism is generally interpreted as willful damage to the value of real property (i.e. damage to a material good that incurs some cost for repair or replacement). Internet sites are not 'real property' in the legal sense, and damage to them incurs negligible repair/replacement costs, so it's doubtful any court would accept a vandalism charge as valid. --Ludwigs2 15:41, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- Vandalism has to do with damages, and as others have suggested, fixing vandalism has an almost trivial cost. Vandalism which is also libel or defamation is not a crime because it's vandalism, but because it's libel or defamation, as suggested above. Ludwigs' point is accurate on Wikipedia, but vandalizing (hacking) a commercial site could indeed lead to monetary losses, since those sites sell stuff. We just give it away for free however, so there's not much of a monetary loss. Pain and suffering, however--every time I Huggle I cry. Also, how many of you have tried the new Cluebot-integrated, platform independent, rapidly expanding anti-vandal program STiki made by User:West.andrew.g. Quite good interface, and broadening its capabilities quickly.Ocaasi (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- In the legal sense, vandalism is generally interpreted as willful damage to the value of real property (i.e. damage to a material good that incurs some cost for repair or replacement). Internet sites are not 'real property' in the legal sense, and damage to them incurs negligible repair/replacement costs, so it's doubtful any court would accept a vandalism charge as valid. --Ludwigs2 15:41, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- In this example we're really talking about two different things. The "vandalism" aspect wouldn't be a crime, however when one breaks wikipedia rules on vandalism, one could also break real laws like libel, defamation etc.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
This is not a legal debate. I was asking Jimbo Wales what his opinion was (thus the reason why it's on his talk page).
Jimbo - Do you think that Wikipedia's invitation "Edit this page" counts as giving people permission to vandalize for the purpose of this law? --Nat682 (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know the law, so I can't really say. I think most of the arguments about it here made good sense. We don't give people permission to vandalize wikipedia. But even so, I'm not sure that vandalizing wikipedia would count under the law of Florida. And in any event, I'm sure sure that the police have better things to do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:52, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- Because I find this conversation interesting, I thank you that I would like to offer an opinion. To my interpretation and knowledge, the paradigm of Wikipedia vandalism requires each instance to be handled on a case by case basis. Whereas, rudimentary infractions, some spawned by youthful indiscretion and general mischief, are fine to be handled in house. The blocking mechanism allows sufficient consequence for most of these types of infraction. However just as a stone becomes a rock at some point, and then a bolder, an act of vandalism is possible, that not only should be reported to the authorities, but failure to report the incident, can in itself be a crime.
- By this example: imagine an editor places a link to some website in an article; upon checking the link you find it to be an advertisement of sorts. You likely would revert the edit and warn the user about spamming on Wikipedia. This pebble would not necessitate police powers. Now if when checking the link, you are taken to a live webcam, and witness egregious conduct like sexual assault against a minor, you would not be blameless for not reporting it, even to the police. We would not be a respectable community ourselves, if we were even willing to tolerate certain conduct.
- Most codified law holds that ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and equally as many have legislated some form of censure for "failure to report a reportable incident". I anticipate little disagreement when I unequivocally state that some forms of vandalism absolutely should involve the police, and I hope Wikipedia would fully cooperate. Having said these things, exactly what should an editor do if they believe an incident should be reported? Should I call 911 and alert the police as a first step? Is there an efficient way to report through Wikipedia? And last of all, does any of what I have tried to enunciate, even make sense, or seem at all relevant? My76Strat 01:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry to be rude, but concision, man. If you can say it in 4 words, why use 57? Throwaway85 (talk) 01:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- You say that you are rude, I do not. The fact in this case is attributed only to your ignorance. The thing you do not know, or did not consider, is that in fact I have stated in 57 words that which I could have used 357. not withstanding that I also like to write. I hope this answers your rhetorical question. My76Strat 02:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- "I don't think you're being rude, just ignorant. I could have padded my prose even more. Take that." You don't sound eloquent, just self-important and officious. Knock it off. Throwaway85 (talk) 02:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- If there is another person, who is offended by any of my recent posts to this page, I do apologize. To any of them, while I do embrace eloquence, I never meant to sound self-important or officious. To my colleague, Throwaway85: I do apologize for having somehow offended you with the content of my initial post. I do not apologize for choosing the word ignorant to ascribe my thoughts regarding your edit, even while being concise. I do not consider you an adversary; only someone who would likely sit on the other side of debate. I am interested to hear your comments on the discussion, especially if you perhaps disagree with the content of my post. Also accept my apology for unintentionally causing this conversation, which detracts from the discussion that was taking place. Best regards My76Strat 03:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, dear Throwaway85, please relax. I try to be concise; I don't mind much if others do not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- If there is another person, who is offended by any of my recent posts to this page, I do apologize. To any of them, while I do embrace eloquence, I never meant to sound self-important or officious. To my colleague, Throwaway85: I do apologize for having somehow offended you with the content of my initial post. I do not apologize for choosing the word ignorant to ascribe my thoughts regarding your edit, even while being concise. I do not consider you an adversary; only someone who would likely sit on the other side of debate. I am interested to hear your comments on the discussion, especially if you perhaps disagree with the content of my post. Also accept my apology for unintentionally causing this conversation, which detracts from the discussion that was taking place. Best regards My76Strat 03:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- "I don't think you're being rude, just ignorant. I could have padded my prose even more. Take that." You don't sound eloquent, just self-important and officious. Knock it off. Throwaway85 (talk) 02:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- You say that you are rude, I do not. The fact in this case is attributed only to your ignorance. The thing you do not know, or did not consider, is that in fact I have stated in 57 words that which I could have used 357. not withstanding that I also like to write. I hope this answers your rhetorical question. My76Strat 02:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry to be rude, but concision, man. If you can say it in 4 words, why use 57? Throwaway85 (talk) 01:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, this question seems to be going off in multiple directions. The original question seems to be: could a person be prosecuted for vandalizing Wikipedia? The simple answer to that appears to be: It is highly unlikely that Wikipedia would pursue such action. However, whether vandalism or good faith edits, legal issues can arise from libel, copyright infringements, etc... These must be corrected immediately, for they can have real consequences. The last example is more a question of ethics. If something on Wikipedia leads you to discover a "real-world" felony in progress, do you report it? That's an age old psychology question. Zaereth (talk) 02:41, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am guessing, but I think a lot of Wikipedians would not support the prosecution of vandalism per se. In the example given for the assault in progress, it is not really the vandalism that is the issue but the assault. The law is a blunt instrument and we want to be careful about employing it. For instance, in Connecticut a law was passed (in response to some incident) that makes it illegal to intentionally destroy computer equipment - and no exception was included for equipment that one owns. So in Connecticut, if you smash your laptop into teeny tiny little bits with a crowbar, like this: SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY GODDAMMIT SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY F***EN SMASHY SMASHY... oops, sorry. Where was I? Oh yes. Well, you could be prosecuted for that. However, I think any reasonable judge would say "Wait, he was editing Wikipedia? Justifiable crime." Herostratus (talk) 02:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I fully agree with the reasonable consensus that is emerging from this discussion. To clarify my initial query: If an act of vandalism seems to involve criminal activity, what is the best first action for the editor who discovers it. And: If a suspected crime is reported, roughly what action would WMF take? Especially if the reported conduct appears to be a valid criminal complaint. BTW in my example I deliberately chose a form of activity which I have heard WMF enforces a zero tolerance policy. I only ask these questions because I am genuinely curious. I hope it would never happen, but if it ever did, I wouldn't know what to do. Thanks for considering this as well. My76Strat 03:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I suppose where it becomes relevant and interesting would be to ask the question whether persistent long-term vandals of sufficient skill level to create a lot of trouble for the community could be guilty of vandalism under Florida law, and whether this fact would be of any practical use in persuading them to stop. First, such cases do exist but they are rare. Second, it would be rare for the troublemaker to actually be *in* Florida. Third, even if they were, the police do have a fair amount of discretion as to whether or not they go after people, and what with murders and armed robberies and all, I can't see why they would want to make this a priority. Fourth, I think most of the people who are persistent long term vandals are subject to social controls other than the law: at various time well-placed phone calls to a mother or a school principal has worked wonders. So, while it may be an interesting theoretical question as to whether vandalizing Wikipedia (even a little bit) amounts to vandalism under some legal definition, it really is not likely to have any practical consequence for how we deal with annoying people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- So I guess the follow on from the comment about it being difficult to prosecute is whether there is an answer in the civil courts (I think there probably is but my US civil law tends to be shaky). I think the other consideration, though, is in terms of resources. Even if you could take legal action (of some form) against individual vandals would it really make a difference? I don't think that any one vandal is so prolific that their removal would noticeably impact the level of vandalism... and it is impractical to consider taking action against many hundreds of people :D --Errant (chat!) 11:29, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Jimbo here, and I would also extend that claim to Internet service providers. One of the main reason why ISPs don't care about abuse of Wikipedia by its customers is because it's simply not important – not as important as, say, the enforcement of DMCA violations as handed down by the RIAA or other media conglomerates. –MuZemike 14:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- I suppose where it becomes relevant and interesting would be to ask the question whether persistent long-term vandals of sufficient skill level to create a lot of trouble for the community could be guilty of vandalism under Florida law, and whether this fact would be of any practical use in persuading them to stop. First, such cases do exist but they are rare. Second, it would be rare for the troublemaker to actually be *in* Florida. Third, even if they were, the police do have a fair amount of discretion as to whether or not they go after people, and what with murders and armed robberies and all, I can't see why they would want to make this a priority. Fourth, I think most of the people who are persistent long term vandals are subject to social controls other than the law: at various time well-placed phone calls to a mother or a school principal has worked wonders. So, while it may be an interesting theoretical question as to whether vandalizing Wikipedia (even a little bit) amounts to vandalism under some legal definition, it really is not likely to have any practical consequence for how we deal with annoying people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I fully agree with the reasonable consensus that is emerging from this discussion. To clarify my initial query: If an act of vandalism seems to involve criminal activity, what is the best first action for the editor who discovers it. And: If a suspected crime is reported, roughly what action would WMF take? Especially if the reported conduct appears to be a valid criminal complaint. BTW in my example I deliberately chose a form of activity which I have heard WMF enforces a zero tolerance policy. I only ask these questions because I am genuinely curious. I hope it would never happen, but if it ever did, I wouldn't know what to do. Thanks for considering this as well. My76Strat 03:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am guessing, but I think a lot of Wikipedians would not support the prosecution of vandalism per se. In the example given for the assault in progress, it is not really the vandalism that is the issue but the assault. The law is a blunt instrument and we want to be careful about employing it. For instance, in Connecticut a law was passed (in response to some incident) that makes it illegal to intentionally destroy computer equipment - and no exception was included for equipment that one owns. So in Connecticut, if you smash your laptop into teeny tiny little bits with a crowbar, like this: SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY GODDAMMIT SMASHY SMASHY SMASHY F***EN SMASHY SMASHY... oops, sorry. Where was I? Oh yes. Well, you could be prosecuted for that. However, I think any reasonable judge would say "Wait, he was editing Wikipedia? Justifiable crime." Herostratus (talk) 02:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- In some cases it presumably will be a crime, depending on the nature of the vandalism it will sometimes amount to conspiracy to a criminal act for example.Rememberway (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Most codified law holds that ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and equally as many have legislated some form of censure for "failure to report a reportable incident". I anticipate little disagreement when I unequivocally state that some forms of vandalism absolutely should involve the police, and I hope Wikipedia would fully cooperate. Having said these things, exactly what should an editor do if they believe an incident should be reported? Should I call 911 and alert the police as a first step? Is there an efficient way to report through Wikipedia? And last of all, does any of what I have tried to enunciate, even make sense, or seem at all relevant? My76Strat 01:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments forthcoming?
I was planning to announce today a relinquishment of some of my traditional powers, as I have been doing over a long period of time, however writing that up in a precise manner is proving to be more difficult than I thought, despite my having thought quite a bit about what steps to take next. I will make a further announcement about that soon.
All times are busy times, so there is no really good time to remind you of this commitment from two months ago. If I've missed a statement please let me know. I believe it is in the community interest to clarify electoral process well in advance of the next electoral cycle, and any comments you have would be particularly helpful. Thanks, Geometry guy 21:56, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Jimbo, may I ask if this process is limited to Arbcom appointments, as implied by the above siglink, or extends somewhat wider? I ask because I currently have concerns about the governance of this project and lacunae in it; I'm not suggesting you should seek consensus for relinquishment of powers you no longer wish to exercise, but for various reasons, I think some of the more traditional ones should be retained, even if subject to review somehow. If there is to be a discussion on this, or you are going to be amenable to input, I would welcome a chance to contribute. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 00:08, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, for personal reasons I am on a semi-holiday for a couple of weeks, but this remains at the forefront of my thinking. Input more than welcome. I'd really enjoy an email conversation with you about this sort of thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:07, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- I hope you have productive email discussions. I am also open to email conversation on this topic (my wikipedia email is enabled).
- However, I am of the firm opinion that it is preferable to discuss Wikipedia-related matters on-wiki as far as possible. I do not participate in mailing lists or IRC for that reason. Attempts to implement the results of off-wiki discussions have seriously backfired in the past. Don't let history repeat itself. Geometry guy 01:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, for personal reasons I am on a semi-holiday for a couple of weeks, but this remains at the forefront of my thinking. Input more than welcome. I'd really enjoy an email conversation with you about this sort of thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:07, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- My Google search for how to delegate reported 11,900,000 results.
- —Wavelength (talk) 23:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Biased !
what kind of admins you have got ?
First they tried not to accept enthiran as the highest grossing indian film , when reliable sources were provided they went on to delete List of highest grossing Indian films List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films
done just to hide the real facts of Indian cinema ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rt sachin (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- For information: both of the above redlinks were deleted per Articles for Deletion, and both for lack of reliable sourcing. See here and here. In this situation, the correct remedies are to (a) provide reliable sourcing or (b) take the matter to WP:Deletion Review, although my own opinion would be that sources were insufficiently robust to sustain the validity of either article, and the deleting Admins acted correctly. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If Jimbo declined to intervene, that would not surprise me at all. Rodhullandemu 23:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Above user is the sock of the indef blocked user (for disruption, personal attacks, trolling) User:SyberGod. Has come back for a little more trolling--Sodabottle (talk) 04:06, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- It does seem a shame for us to not have an article or articles about the top grossing Indian films. I'd be interested in an article about that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Did Jimbo just propose List of top grossing Indian films? ;) Seriously, though, en.wiki seems to be the default Wikipedia for developing countries, and it would do us well to drop the colonial attitudes a bit. So what if somebody starts an article on an Indian actor, the sources for which are all Hindi? We have enough bilingual editors that we don't need to be concerned. This reminds me of The Missing Wikipedians. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- There is a complex background to these deletions, I suggest anyone interested check the relevant AfDs before making any assumption about why these articles were nominated. The key issue is that verifiable sources do not exist for Indian cinema box office income, consequently though estimates may be added to individual articles about Indian films, creating a large ranked list article consisting of dubiously sourced estimates of box-office income would fail our WP:V policy. There is an associated issue of the commercial copyright of such tables of estimates based on market intelligence (rather than financial statistics or repeatable models of income) and I would encourage feedback on the proposed draft guideline at User:Moonriddengirl/Copyright in lists. I am aware that these articles should be treated sensitively and encouraged due to the natural geographic bias of Wikipedia articles, however this must be balanced with copyright requirements and the need for a good standard of verifiability (particularly as there are a lot of hyped up publications from Indian film promoters that do not stand up to scrutiny, see the long history of Talk:Enthiran). Fæ (talk) 12:39, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Although I was thinking of it more as an essay (less fuss and bother), I'd encourage feedback on that, too. :) Copyright issues on lists are tricky. I'm attempting to get counsel feedback on the one in question here, since based on the attorney recommendations we've already received it seems that it is not copyright clear. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- There is a complex background to these deletions, I suggest anyone interested check the relevant AfDs before making any assumption about why these articles were nominated. The key issue is that verifiable sources do not exist for Indian cinema box office income, consequently though estimates may be added to individual articles about Indian films, creating a large ranked list article consisting of dubiously sourced estimates of box-office income would fail our WP:V policy. There is an associated issue of the commercial copyright of such tables of estimates based on market intelligence (rather than financial statistics or repeatable models of income) and I would encourage feedback on the proposed draft guideline at User:Moonriddengirl/Copyright in lists. I am aware that these articles should be treated sensitively and encouraged due to the natural geographic bias of Wikipedia articles, however this must be balanced with copyright requirements and the need for a good standard of verifiability (particularly as there are a lot of hyped up publications from Indian film promoters that do not stand up to scrutiny, see the long history of Talk:Enthiran). Fæ (talk) 12:39, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Did Jimbo just propose List of top grossing Indian films? ;) Seriously, though, en.wiki seems to be the default Wikipedia for developing countries, and it would do us well to drop the colonial attitudes a bit. So what if somebody starts an article on an Indian actor, the sources for which are all Hindi? We have enough bilingual editors that we don't need to be concerned. This reminds me of The Missing Wikipedians. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- It does seem a shame for us to not have an article or articles about the top grossing Indian films. I'd be interested in an article about that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Above user is the sock of the indef blocked user (for disruption, personal attacks, trolling) User:SyberGod. Has come back for a little more trolling--Sodabottle (talk) 04:06, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Most statistics in wikipedia are based on estimations, so i don't see the problem with using that kind of statistics. 190.51.151.235 (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- The problem is U.S. copyright law. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- Most statistics in wikipedia are based on estimations, so i don't see the problem with using that kind of statistics. 190.51.151.235 (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- I did not get an answer at the removal discussion page from anybody there, so I ask you admins again. Could you explain me in detail why an anonymous source like boxofficeindia.com gets treated as reliable and verifiable enough to be placed in wiki? I understood, that newspapers cite them sometimes, but these newspapers just copy these numbers, because there have nothing else. If I had owned that domain, they would have cited my numbers, too, although I'm a nobody.
These dubious sites give very accurate lakh rupees numbers for the whole gross of a Hindi movie. 1 lakh is merely around 2.000 us dollars. It's a nearly perfect number! This is simply impossible to predict without machines.. in complete contrast to this, the official producers of Endhiran Sun Pictures couldn't get even exact numbers in crore rupees, where 1 cr is ca. 200.000 us dollars. They said, they made alltogether a minimum 375 cr, while others said 400 to 450 cr, a difference of many million dollars! Please explain your decisions..--Wangond (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- I can see no benefit in rehashing on Jimbo's talk page the exact same explanations that were clearly spelt out several times in the AfDs and the list article talk pages. BoxOfficeIndia explains clearly on their website that their numbers are not based on any verifiable accounts nor estimated in any way that the estimates are repeatable by anyone else. It is not uncommon for contributors to confuse apparent precision with accuracy. Fæ (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- The last time I spoke to an associate counsel on lists, a few days over a month ago, she said, "Unless you know the criteria involved in creating the list, it is impossible to even gauge the potential of a court finding that it warrants copyright protection. And unfortunately, even if you do know the criteria, it is very hard to predict what a court will say (especially because the courts vary in their opinions in different circuits on this matter) when there is a degree of creativity involved. You are really only safe if the list is purely formulaic." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- who is boxofficeindia? give me names, professions, company details.. you still don't get my question.. you won't give me an answer and ignore it. why? Is anonymous amateurish pseudo-professionalism part of any encyclopedia? I demand an explanation for this. Why don't you answer this question?--Wangond (talk) 23:25, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- This is boxofficeindia. If you want more details than that, I'm afraid you'll have to contact them yourself. Their contact information is here. If your question concerns why that source is reliable enough to be trusted, I'm afraid you may be at the wrong venue; the reliable sources noticeboard may be better for that. I typically do not mix my copyright hat with other works, and once the copyright question is resolved do not intend to interact with this article any further. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- The question went to Fæ. The information given at the about us site is zero, since not even one person is mentioned, who may be stand responsible for the content. And the email adresses are again shrouded in anonymity. I'm not willing to "investigate" the matter like a police officer. That's not my job. That's the job of wikipedia officials who approves these sites in deletion discussions. My question still is denied a proper answer. I don't know why it's impossible for you to understand that. I'm not asking to review the deletion. I'm just asking u guys why such crap is tolerated for Hindi films and a Tamil/Telugu gross collections site with official statements gets deleted ? Why this double standard and bias against South Indians?--Wangond (talk) 01:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Well, I'm not Fæ, but I'll see if I can clarify a bit. The people who administer deletion discussions are not "officials" in the sense that you may be thinking. Administrators do have some extra abilities (such as that of blocking contributors and deleting pages) and they are trusted to close deletion debates, but it is the community that determines these things. That is, administrators do their best to enact the will of the community as it is expressed in these discussions (keeping in mind the provisions of Wikipedia:Consensus). I've worked with the administrator who closed this discussion, User:Stifle, and I believe he does his best to be scrupulously fair. I do not believe he is operating off of any bias, but rather doing what he believes the community requires of him. (It is not his job, either, to investigate the matter like a police officer. Rather, the people involved in such debates need to persuade each other of these points.) Ordinarily, if you have questions about the closure of an AfD, you would begin by speaking politely about it with the administrator who closed the AfD. If you think that the closure was procedurally wrong, you may ask for review of that decision. But I would really encourage you to carefully read and follow User:GRBerry/DRVGuide before considering doing so. Alternatively, if after sufficient time you still believe that the source on which this article is based is inherently unreliable, you may wish to consider discussing the matter again. (I would probably ask for feedback about the reliability of the source at WP:RSN first.)
- The question went to Fæ. The information given at the about us site is zero, since not even one person is mentioned, who may be stand responsible for the content. And the email adresses are again shrouded in anonymity. I'm not willing to "investigate" the matter like a police officer. That's not my job. That's the job of wikipedia officials who approves these sites in deletion discussions. My question still is denied a proper answer. I don't know why it's impossible for you to understand that. I'm not asking to review the deletion. I'm just asking u guys why such crap is tolerated for Hindi films and a Tamil/Telugu gross collections site with official statements gets deleted ? Why this double standard and bias against South Indians?--Wangond (talk) 01:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- This is boxofficeindia. If you want more details than that, I'm afraid you'll have to contact them yourself. Their contact information is here. If your question concerns why that source is reliable enough to be trusted, I'm afraid you may be at the wrong venue; the reliable sources noticeboard may be better for that. I typically do not mix my copyright hat with other works, and once the copyright question is resolved do not intend to interact with this article any further. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if you feel that these subjects are being treated unevenly. The discussions on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Bollywood films (2nd nomination) went very differently, obviously. I am not familiar enough with the sources of either to really have an opinion on why that happened or whether that was fair. But I've seen articles that I thought were deleted for less than stellar reasons and others that I felt should be deleted which were kept. I know that it can be frustrating, but I do believe the model works overall. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Er, Wangond, I misunderstood the direction of your question. I put the article up for deletion because (as per my nomination) I believe it fundamentally does not meet the policy requirement of WP:V. The fact the the people supplying the numbers in question are anonymous, the numbers appear fabricated on guesswork and the site provides no real explanation as to veracity (apart from unsupported exultations that their numbers are incredibly accurate) was glossed over by the majority of opinions in the AfD because enough Wikipedian enthusiasts would rather overlook policy rather than loose an article they like (see WP:IAR). The outcome is not my doing or that of the closing administrator, it's just how consensus works on Wikipedia which I believe is for the good in the long term. The current issue of copyright is a separate discussion and not something that can be glossed over due to popularity. If you want to see better consistency for this type of list article I suggest you wait for Moonriddengirl's essay on list copyright to be issued and then consider running a request for comment if you wish to reach a meaningful consensus on how it should be interpreted along with WP:V for the dubious sources in question. Cheers Fæ (talk) 08:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if you feel that these subjects are being treated unevenly. The discussions on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Bollywood films (2nd nomination) went very differently, obviously. I am not familiar enough with the sources of either to really have an opinion on why that happened or whether that was fair. But I've seen articles that I thought were deleted for less than stellar reasons and others that I felt should be deleted which were kept. I know that it can be frustrating, but I do believe the model works overall. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Holiday
Careful readers will note that I'm going to be on a bit of a holiday for a couple of weeks. I'll still be around now and then doing a little bit, but not a lot of heavy lifting for a bit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)