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: Bounced an e-mail your way - a version from towards the end the (first) AfD, version prior to nomming, and version in September 2018. The latter two have serious factual issues, the former fails GNG/NPROF but is probably mostly OK factually. [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz#top|talk]]) 10:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
: Bounced an e-mail your way - a version from towards the end the (first) AfD, version prior to nomming, and version in September 2018. The latter two have serious factual issues, the former fails GNG/NPROF but is probably mostly OK factually. [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz#top|talk]]) 10:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:: Thanks a lot. Sorry to disturb you again, but can you direct me to the draft? I understand that you might have been unfairly criticized and am deeply sorry if I am causing you further trouble. --[[User:Jose Mathew C|Jose Mathew]] ([[User talk:Jose Mathew C|talk]]) 11:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
:: Thanks a lot. Sorry to disturb you again, but can you direct me to the draft? I understand that you might have been unfairly criticized and am deeply sorry if I am causing you further trouble. --[[User:Jose Mathew C|Jose Mathew]] ([[User talk:Jose Mathew C|talk]]) 11:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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== [[Anti-German sentiment]] == |
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Icewhiz symhatises with German Nazis.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 11:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:09, 29 April 2019
Have your say!
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WP:Fringe tag
I suggest that you restore the tag. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Morvarid Karimi AfD
There is no page to comment on the Morvarid Karimi AfD article, only the closed discussion for the first nomination. I think you may need to re-nominate it for deletion rather than relisting it? Cheers! Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Grand'mere Eugene:, yes, would need to be a new AfD as the previous one was closed as no consensus.Icewhiz (talk) 04:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
"Not reliably sourced"
Hello Icewhiz, I took the liberty of reverting your change as there are multiple sources reporting this: one, two, three, four, five etc. etc. with actual photo evidence. It's preposterous to me to remove this paragraph claiming it's "not reliably sourced". If you have any doubts about this please raise this point on the Talk page. BeŻet (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- The rules state: If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit. You haven't reverted a change I made, you've removed a section that was a result of multiple edits, and thus yourself created an edit, not a revert. I've reverted your edit, I haven't restored a revert, hence no rules were broken. There are plenty of sources that describe what happened there, including TeleSUR, hence there are clearly grounds for further discussion here which I suggest you start on the Talk page instead of removing a whole section like this. BeŻet (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Could we expand it for a DYK?
I just started Shmuel Krakowski. I wonder if there's enough material to DYK him? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is source wise that it is Yad Vashem + an interview with him (+maybe possibly a book jacket). e.g. short English Yad Vashem obit, more detailed Hebrew Yad Vashem obit, and this Interview in Hebrew (Yad Vashem). So basically - we could translate the Yad Vashem page in Hebrew to English, but I'm not seeing at the moment better source material (there might be some - Hebrew is worse than English online - locating Hebrew sources from 1960-2000 online is actually rather spotty). He passed away in September 2018 - there might be a chance this will trigger publications in the next few months - in which case it would be better to base this off those publications. @Ehud Amir: created the Hebrew wiki page in September - I assume off of the Yad Vashem obit/profile - unless I'm missing something. Icewhiz (talk) 09:41, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
blp Bartlett
hi I left a reply could you please clarify your position , thanks Govindaharihari (talk) 07:55, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Question
Hi, in this edit summary you wrote; "Nope. Result of AfD was a merge - not a partial merge. Project consensus in SHIPS does not override policy. Either this is spunout as a full list - or it is in here as a list
" - could you point out which policy you are referring to? Thanks - wolf 13:22, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- The result of the AfD was a merge of a list (which would be notable standalone) to the main article. A merge means merge - names, dates, etc - wikifying a few names in the prose does not meet the definition of a merge.Icewhiz (talk) 17:36, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, I get that is how you see it. It's just that you make this sound both very narrowly construed and absolutely mandatory. You also specifically used the word "policy" to support your comments (and ∴ your edits). I was just wondering which policy you were referring to. If you wouldn't mind telling me, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks again - wolf 19:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Merge means merge, as per, umm, WP:MERGETEXT, WP:MERGE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:30, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the quick response, neither of those pages are, umm, policies. They aren't even guidelines. They are "information pages". Now, even though they're "
unvetted
" and only have "limited status
", I'm sure they have some useful tips and advice. But I'm really only looking for the "policy" that you specifically mentioned in your comments. I would just like to give a read so I can better understand just what it is you are relying on to support your comments and edits, both on the Nevada page and here. I really don't want to take up any more of your time than is necessary, so if you could just tell me the name of that policy (or link it), I would, as I said earlier, really appreciate it. Thanks again - wolf 20:00, 12 October 2018 (UTC)- I linked to an information page - yes not policy - but also higher in the totem pole than an essay. AfD consensus is expected to he followed, the notion that a prose mention of names was sufficient was rejected (this was the delete arguement). Merge outcomes (and this is really basic - again per WP:MERGE) refer to a cut and paste merge of all or some (e.g. avioding duplicates) of the content from the merge source to the merge target. Icewhiz (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, sooo... there is no policy. Got it. Let's move on. I'm well aware of the WP:PG hierarchy, from policies, like wp:consensus to essays like WP:Don't lie, (btw, glad you mentioned the importance of acknowledging consensus, we'll get back to that later). I also know that sometimes editors will say "as per policy" when reverting, even though there isn't an actual policy supporting said revert. But, hey... this is really about the merge, right? So let's discuss that. The thing about the AfD consensus was that there wasn't really a consensus. Here are the closing admin's comments;
There were 8 contributors to that discussion, the !votes were;"Given that support for merge, delete and keep is about the same, we must conclude that there is consensus to not keep but also no consensus to delete. This leaves a merger as the most consensual outcome."
"keep" (2), "keep or merge" (2),
"merge" (2) and "delete" (2).
Not exactly an landslide in any direction (or much of a turn-out). But, the closer went with "merge", (and if you read my comments, I wasn't against that), which means merging the content of that article, which consisted of 26 names and nothing else, into the Nevada article. I don't see anything that says the content must remain as a list (no exceptions!). Five of the names were already in the article's prose. Going by your research, I added the other 14 "notable" COs to the prose, and then removed the list, as per the consensus ar WT:SHIPS. (I said we'd get back to that). We can adhere to the consensus of the AfD, including adding the other non-notable names to the prose, which would mean all the content from the AfD article would now be added to the Nevada page, and therefore merged. With that, we could then remove the list (which would then be all duplicate content) and we would also be adhering to the consensus (well, partially at least) of the SHIPS Project, to add COs to the article body and avoid having lists of COs instead. Seems like a win-win scenario, no? I'd be happy to add the remaining names to the article prose right now so we can put this whole matter to rest and move on to other things. What do you say? - wolf 22:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, sooo... there is no policy. Got it. Let's move on. I'm well aware of the WP:PG hierarchy, from policies, like wp:consensus to essays like WP:Don't lie, (btw, glad you mentioned the importance of acknowledging consensus, we'll get back to that later). I also know that sometimes editors will say "as per policy" when reverting, even though there isn't an actual policy supporting said revert. But, hey... this is really about the merge, right? So let's discuss that. The thing about the AfD consensus was that there wasn't really a consensus. Here are the closing admin's comments;
- I linked to an information page - yes not policy - but also higher in the totem pole than an essay. AfD consensus is expected to he followed, the notion that a prose mention of names was sufficient was rejected (this was the delete arguement). Merge outcomes (and this is really basic - again per WP:MERGE) refer to a cut and paste merge of all or some (e.g. avioding duplicates) of the content from the merge source to the merge target. Icewhiz (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the quick response, neither of those pages are, umm, policies. They aren't even guidelines. They are "information pages". Now, even though they're "
- Merge means merge, as per, umm, WP:MERGETEXT, WP:MERGE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:30, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, I get that is how you see it. It's just that you make this sound both very narrowly construed and absolutely mandatory. You also specifically used the word "policy" to support your comments (and ∴ your edits). I was just wondering which policy you were referring to. If you wouldn't mind telling me, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks again - wolf 19:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
OK, When I add the remaining Captain's names, I'll also add the dates for all 26 of them. Everything from the original article will then be merged to current one. Problem solved. - wolf 06:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- If most of the content of the merge source is retained, and changes are merely formatting, I guess that would fall under merge broadly construed. Icewhiz (talk) 06:53, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- Well good, I'm glad we worked it out. It was nice collaborating with you. Have a nice day. - wolf 09:07, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Birthright Israel
Your latest revert there might be construed as a WP:ARBPIA3 violation. For which I reported VanEman BTW Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#VanEman. Debresser (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- I do not quite see how - seeing this was reverted forst on 12 Oct, and I did not edit in 5days. However I self reverted.Icewhiz (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Because any revert can not be undone for 24 hours in ARBPIA3, not just your revert. Debresser (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
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Shocking
Take a look at the story in [2] (p. 208). I find this attempt to make profit from Holocaust shocking. Do you think we can describe this somewhere? I wonder if the term 'Holocaust profiteer' exists. Particularly shocking is the fact that this is not a war-time (or shortly after war-time) practice, this is something that's happening right now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- I actually am not shocked - seems par the course for photo copyright. Are you aware of the travel agency cartel? [3] Icewhiz (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Reply
Dear Icewhiz,
Thank you for getting in touch. You write on my Talk page:
RE this - I don't want to engage on this in the article - I don't want a high-drama conflict over this. However, the Nazi system of badges included marks for all non-German internees. You can take a look at the wiki article - Nazi concentration camp badge (or this book or this book on Buchenwald), which has some examples - Dutch Jews, Dutch, and French - and this is also of course off-wiki - e.g. Imperial War Museum - French political badge or this Nazi Dachau chart which explains the various markings - note the P for Pole on the bottom and T for Czech (Tschechisch in German). The Nazies were genocidal. They were also meticulous and highly bureaucratic (a bureaucracy that progressed throughout the war - e.g. the tattooed inmate numbers were a later "innovation") - the camp badge system was meant to assist camp guards. I think the article would be better organized if it were focused on those Nazi crimes that were motivated by Nazi racism towards Poles (and there are several such striking examples) - as opposed to Nazi depravity (or in the case of badges - hellish bureaucracy) - which was directed towards most people in Europe - but I leave this observation in your hands - I don't want the drama involved. Icewhiz (talk) 06:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
That makes two of us: I don't want the drama either. This is why I very rarely get involved in sanctioning requests, and often swim away, which is always an option before going to WP:AE, etc. Drama is also why I have drawn down my involvement in this entire project: spending months seeing off a troll on a mission, and his mirrors, until they're eventually permbanned was not my idea of time well spent, when there are so many beautiful things to do in the real world. In this particular case,[4] whether your rationale has merit or not is superseded by how one needs to conduct oneself with consideration for other users, aka consensus. I believe that you have enough capacity for emotional intelligence to know how your edit is likely to be perceived by peers in an open forum: you deleted the illustration of a racist Nazi German concentration camp badge designating an ethnic Polish inmate, from an article about anti-Polish sentiment, on the grounds that it is "irrelevant". This is going to look very wrong to most users, let alone any drama. Please be mindful that it would only be made worse by the fact that peers can see your record of conflict in the subject area of Jewish issues (including those overlapping with Polish history), especially given that you are in the midst of an AE discussion in the area right now [5]. As far as I'm aware you have been sanctioned in these areas before; our community's intention behind these sanctions is not to play a game of who is in the wrong or in the right, who gets caught out and who doesn't, who lost or won a clever argument. It's for the sanctioned user to become more aware of those around them, and as a deterrent for others not to mimic the sanctioned behavior. As a friendly colleague, I'm asking you to step back from the brink and adjust, because I believe you can achieve great things. -Chumchum7 (talk) 08:36, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- This is not what I said in my edit summary - if you quote me - quote me in full. If there is anything sanction-able here it is inserting unsourced OR/SYNTH into the article - please cease repeatedly mentioning sanctions without basis (and in this instance - mentioning an unrelated discussion). In my TP post to you - I merely wished to provide you with sources on the nationality markings on camp badges (since your edit summary of Racist, genocidal regimes putting people labelled by ethnicity in concentration camps is a clear example of anti-ethnic sentiment. It would be Anti-Belgian, anti-English, anti-French, anti-Dutch, and anti-Norwegian sentiment too. As WP:ARBEE rulings are especially strict on Nazism, I recommend you take this up at a noticeboard to check wider consensus first - seemed to be uninformed regarding the marking of several other nationalities in the camps (all of which were marked by a nationality letter), and I will note - not a valid rationale for reversion, but rather a personal opinion) - do with this information as you may. HOWEVER - as I do not wish to invest additional time here, particularly due to the drama involved here (and in this case - for a minor SYNTH/OR problem - the information itself at least being factually correct though containing a misrepresentation via omission of context and being SYNTH due to lack of sourcing tying this to the article) - I have truly said my last word on the subject. Icewhiz (talk) 09:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- You also might want to think why Francophobia doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this, and Anti-Dutch sentiment doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this (a whole collection of different letter badges - can be seen here). However - up to you. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- As I say, one should ask a wider forum of users to see what the consensus response would be to these questions. For what it's worth, my contribution to such a discussion would be that the reason why French and Dutch badges have not been added to equivalent pages is most likely because there were no racist Nazi German policies against the French and Dutch, unlike their alleged Untermensch such as Poles, which encountered planned genocide, as the verifiable sources show. In any case, the absence of pictures of these badges from French or Dutch pages doesn't by itself prove that consensus wouldn't accept them being there. Pictures indicating far more vague and far less sinister sentiments are already included after all. It's noticeable that by their nature all choices about illustrations, like infoboxes, tend to come from users rather than sources; so they're more reliant on perceptions of common sense and consensus. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- I would suggest you base inclusion (for this, and other photographs) on sources making the connection - not personal assertion that it is "obvious" or "clear". Note that infoboxes are supposed to be cited - or clear summaries of the article (which is cited) - and photoes (and moreso captions - photos do have a self-work exemption for copyright reasons, captions are like any other article text) are not exempt from the usual sourcing / OR / SYNTH requirements. As for citing lack of consensus (where such lack of consensus is indicated by a single editor - the reverter) - this is not, by itself, an argument for reverting back in un-sourced OR. However, I am done with this at this time (I got involved in the wall of text between you and another editor on the talk page, and it seems it just went on from there becoming a bigger wall on the article talk page - and now here) - please keep this off my talk page. Icewhiz (talk) 10:18, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- As I say, one should ask a wider forum of users to see what the consensus response would be to these questions. For what it's worth, my contribution to such a discussion would be that the reason why French and Dutch badges have not been added to equivalent pages is most likely because there were no racist Nazi German policies against the French and Dutch, unlike their alleged Untermensch such as Poles, which encountered planned genocide, as the verifiable sources show. In any case, the absence of pictures of these badges from French or Dutch pages doesn't by itself prove that consensus wouldn't accept them being there. Pictures indicating far more vague and far less sinister sentiments are already included after all. It's noticeable that by their nature all choices about illustrations, like infoboxes, tend to come from users rather than sources; so they're more reliant on perceptions of common sense and consensus. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- You also might want to think why Francophobia doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this, and Anti-Dutch sentiment doesn't (and shouldn't) have an image like this (a whole collection of different letter badges - can be seen here). However - up to you. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Proverb article
I hope the current revision addresses all your concerns of OR or NPOV. If it does not, please, list them for me - either here with a ping, or on my talk page, or in a new article section, listing each sentence you consider problematic. If there's any content missing you think should be included to balance the article, I trust you can add it yourself. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- In my view, the following are problems with the article, listed by order of rising severity:
- OR - the title and quote are OR - they are not present in this form in available English translations. This is a minor issue - as it is quite close to various forms that are used.
- OR / factually incorrect - "It was also used by non-Polish authors; for example in addition to Križanić and Krman, " - none of the cited authors "use this" - but rather they mention this as a Polish/Latin saying on the situation in Poland. (corrected).
- Notability - the phrase itself (of which there are several variant forms - some of which are tied together via SYNTH/OR into the article as being synonymous), as opposed to "Paradisus Judaeorum" (which is discussed in the literature), is not independently notable. The lack of notability is actually demonstrated by the sourcing in the article - which for mentions of the full phrase relies on pre-20th century sources. We have an open RM on the title.
- Neutrality - the article does not properly reflect that this is an antisemitic polemic which is saying that Jews (and in other forms - heretics at large - "paradisus haereticorum") are treated "too good". This is not a tangential issue - this is the main use of this saying, throughout the ages.
- Icewhiz (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- 1 and 3. I do think that the full phrase is notable, as it has been discussed in a number of sources. You can take it to AfD if you think only the I/JP part is notable, but I think the fact that it was subject to an in-depth academic treatment by Kot (~20 pages), plus at least several paragraphs by other scholars, is sufficient to show it is notable.
- 2. Fair enough, I see you've corrected those issues yourself, and I don't intend to restore the prior wording of those parts.
- 3. I hope you can expand on those issues. The sources I see don't seem to lend themselves that easily to that type of critique, IMHO, but if you think they do, or found better sources, well, I believe expansion is the best way of solving such perceived undue coverage issues.
- 4 . I'd appreciate your thoughts on what would be a neutral hook. I think the one proposed by StarryGradnma seems quite neutral, don't you? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- At this point I'm mainly waiting for the RM to conclude. If this remains on the non-notable full saying - I will take this to AfD. As for StarryGradnma's hook - inclusion of a highly antisemitic saying on the main page (the title of the article - being the full phrase) - requires explicitly spelling this out. Icewhiz (talk) 07:20, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- I've added a quotation about the original text anti-Jewish meaning to the lead. Does it address your NPOV concerns? As for the notability, see my recent talk page post. We are dealing with three items: a poem, a proverb, and a two-word construct. I think the proverb, as the best known of the three, is the best to build the article around. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- No - as it doesn't say anti-Jewish (or Semitic) in the lede. As for notability - I see how the two-word construct (Jewish/Hebrew paradise in various permutations) is notable - as it is discussed in a secondary manner with some depth. The full phrase, is in my view of the sources not notable - as I see it you have possibly 1-2 sources discussing the phrase in a secondary manner at a length that can be considered of some length - the rest of sources either being PRIMARY (e.g. 18th century collections of Latin sayings/poems) or brief 1-2 sentence mentions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- You are welcome to edit the lead yourself. As the quote states that the poem was critical of Jews, I don't know what more do you want. As for notability, thank you for pointing out it is notable, as what you describe above meets minimum GNG requirements perfectly. PS. On second thought, I've added a link to antisemitism to the lead (anti-Jewish redirects there, I think we can agree that we don't need to link to the pipe, right?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- No - as it doesn't say anti-Jewish (or Semitic) in the lede. As for notability - I see how the two-word construct (Jewish/Hebrew paradise in various permutations) is notable - as it is discussed in a secondary manner with some depth. The full phrase, is in my view of the sources not notable - as I see it you have possibly 1-2 sources discussing the phrase in a secondary manner at a length that can be considered of some length - the rest of sources either being PRIMARY (e.g. 18th century collections of Latin sayings/poems) or brief 1-2 sentence mentions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
NPR Newsletter No.15 16 November 2018
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Removal of content from multiple ghetto articles
As I've shown in Sosnowiec Ghetto and Nowy Sącz Ghetto, the content you removed is actually not that hard to verify. I am afraid that quite a lot of content you removed from other Ghetto articles is also easy to verify. Could you double check the content you removed, at least cross-reference the names with YV online database and their The Encyclopedia of the Righteous Among the Nations book? (I assume you'd concur those sources are reliable). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:43, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- I removed content that was not cited or cited to unreliable sources. I will also note that ghetto articles (or Wikipedia in general) is not a place to WP:COATRACK WP:UNDUE primary victim or righteous accounts that are not covered in a secondary manner by sources on the ghettos. In some of these, over 50% of the article was to such primary accounts which are not present in sources covering the ghetto itself in detail as a topic- e.g, the USHMM encyclopedia of camps.Icewhiz (talk) 04:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Different sources focus on different aspects of this, fortunately, WP:NOTPAPER so we have room for various details. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- The USHMM encyclopedia prefers sometimes Russian/Belarus sources (Brześć Ghetto), so it doesn't know about ethnic Poles. Xx236 (talk) 12:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Antisemitism of Soviet partisans
See Talk:Soviet_partisans#Antisemitism. Right now this is a dimension totally missing from the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:52, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Nominations now open for "Military historian of the year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" awards
Nominations for our annual Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year awards are open until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2018. Why don't you nominate the editors who you believe have made a real difference to the project in 2018? MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Please edit.Xx236 (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- You have admitted you don't read pages regarding the Holocaust. Xx236 (talk) 10:14, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- What in particular needs attention?Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- I have listed a number of problems on their Talk pages.Xx236 (talk) 11:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- I think that is regards to Hitler and Himmler there are a number of editors with better expertise than me and that the articles are well watched and edited (as far as Wikipedia goes, of course....) - it is also a careful balancing act (as a huge amount of material is available on both). However, the Arrow Cross Party seems in need of some editor TLC (as many less traversed WWII topics - in particular topics that modern nationalists are inspired from) - I placed it on my watchlist (to begin), and I may edit it. Icewhiz (talk) 12:56, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- The structure of Himmler is wrong, The Holocaust outside WWII, too short Holocaust and too long Germanisation, too little about economy (Monowitz added after my suggestion). Adolf Hitler - Nazi Germany describes the period before the war. So no expertise is visible.Xx236 (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- I have listed a number of problems on their Talk pages.Xx236 (talk) 11:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- What in particular needs attention?Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- Wannsee Conference. Is Encyclopedia Judaica of low quality?Xx236 (talk) 09:39, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- jewishvirtuallibrary is generally lower quality than a mainstream academic book (it may be better for npov than a book by a fringey author, but generally lower). For lesser trodden topics it maay be ok, but for Wannsee there should be no lack of better sources. What is good with JVL is that it is all online.Icewhiz (talk) 10:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Laurence Rees is competent, but not academic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs)
- But he is a recognized historian. I would personally - without looking in depth at the merits - prefer Rees in a published setting to JVL. It also doesn't really matter - as you don't need two citations to support the content - Diannaa didn't change the text, merely removed a citation - and you don't need more than one citation for content that is not controversial (and saying 8/15 had doctorates doesn't sound too touchy). Icewhiz (talk) 10:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Laurence Rees is competent, but not academic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs)
- jewishvirtuallibrary is generally lower quality than a mainstream academic book (it may be better for npov than a book by a fringey author, but generally lower). For lesser trodden topics it maay be ok, but for Wannsee there should be no lack of better sources. What is good with JVL is that it is all online.Icewhiz (talk) 10:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Police Battalion 309 doesn't describe their crimes, so I have copied from Great Synagogue, Białystok.Xx236 (talk) 10:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Economy of Nazi Germany - no Holocaust. Very strange.Xx236 (talk) 12:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the Holocaust per se was a major contributor to the economy of Nazi Germany (they did pilfer alot of Jewish property, but they also expanded quite a bit of resources to kill Jews and others). However, what I do find disturbing in the linked article is that while slave labour (which also includes Holocaust victims - but was much wider than just the Holocaust) gets a section - the very high mortality rate of the slave laborers is not covered. Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare by Gotz Aly describes the economy of the Holocaust. Short version "The Holocaust, then, was not just a result of the ideology of anti-Semitism but also of the policies of plunder that won the regime the support of the vast majority of the German people".[6] Similar opinion [7].Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Nazi pilfering of property is a bit "over sold" in my mind (yes - there are sources). I'm actually more concerned with mortality of slave labor as a whole - I guess I understand why it isn't in there - it seems difficult to get an estimate for this (other than it was high) and the numbers also include "work to death" schemes (in, out, or "grey zone" Holocaust) - I've looked and have been unable to find a good source (there's lots of stuff down in the weeds - estimates for specific locales, and particular anecdotes (e.g. V2 workers) - but I don't see a good source for this). Icewhiz (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Slave labor is very general. Some workers were accepted as members of family by German farmers. Some men were hanged because of Rassenschande. Some workers participated in underground activities and were killed or imprisoned. Newborn childen of female workers were killed (starved).
- Nazi pilfering of property is a bit "over sold" in my mind (yes - there are sources). I'm actually more concerned with mortality of slave labor as a whole - I guess I understand why it isn't in there - it seems difficult to get an estimate for this (other than it was high) and the numbers also include "work to death" schemes (in, out, or "grey zone" Holocaust) - I've looked and have been unable to find a good source (there's lots of stuff down in the weeds - estimates for specific locales, and particular anecdotes (e.g. V2 workers) - but I don't see a good source for this). Icewhiz (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare by Gotz Aly describes the economy of the Holocaust. Short version "The Holocaust, then, was not just a result of the ideology of anti-Semitism but also of the policies of plunder that won the regime the support of the vast majority of the German people".[6] Similar opinion [7].Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the Holocaust per se was a major contributor to the economy of Nazi Germany (they did pilfer alot of Jewish property, but they also expanded quite a bit of resources to kill Jews and others). However, what I do find disturbing in the linked article is that while slave labour (which also includes Holocaust victims - but was much wider than just the Holocaust) gets a section - the very high mortality rate of the slave laborers is not covered. Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- http://www.polska-niemcy-interakcje.pl/articles/show/34 Polish study
- http://www.expolis.de/schlesien/texte/maas_pl.html Polish translation of a German text.
Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- Would you write Renia Spiegel? [8], pl:Renia Spiegel, de:Renia Spiegel.Xx236 (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Re: Richard C. Lukas page edits
Hi IceWhiz,
I saw your notes on the noticeboard, and I understand the COI issues--the editorial content versus factual. What concerned me was that someone had removed Lukas's award by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League (B'nai Brith), which I put back in, as that showed that many Jewish historians did agree with--and appreciate--Lukas's work. Norman Davies's credentials had also been taken out, so I added those again as well. These parts are important because, as you may or may not know, Lukas's book, The Forgotten Holocaust, stirred up controversy among some Jewish historians, but not all other historians agree with the criticism. The book in no way seeks to take away from the Jewish experience of the Holocaust, but to focus on the Polish experience as well, and how Poles and Jews related to each other during WWII. To your point, I can have Dr. Lukas provide quotes and/or actual documentation from historians who disagree with Engel, instead of a blanket statement that they disagree with him. I'll take another look over the page to make sure it complies with the COI issues. Thanks for your feedback, and let me know if there is something else that needs to be adjusted. White Eagle 70 (talk) 17:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)White Eagle 70
- @White Eagle 70:, any information you add - also rewards - needs to be backed up by a WP:RS. Please also read WP:COI and WP:DISCLOSE if needed in a manner pursuant to policy. Icewhiz (talk) 17:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Ok, please note that the facts on this page are backed up by reliable sources and published work. Also, it is correct to say that Lukas is the first American historian to write on this topic (the Polish experience of WWII), which is what made The Forgotten Holocaust groundbreaking. Before him, there were Polish historians who wrote about it. But it IS actually the first English language book of this kind. That is a true, factual statement. Thank you for the information about editing. White Eagle 70 (talk) 20:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)White Eagle 70
You remove but not write anything good about Polsih people. Even the Yizkor book seems to be unreliable, maybe antisemitic? Xx236 (talk) 12:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- I remove it since to was sourced to a WP:SPS Mark Paul - who is not reliable. If there is a reliable source - it can be restored. Note that most Yizkor books are regarded as WP:PRIMARY - being witness accounts (there are exceptions) - it is usually best to use secondary sources analyzing them and not the yizkor books themselves. Icewhiz (talk) 12:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Help with sourcing on AIG
Hey Icewhiz! Hope you're doing well. I raised a question over at the AIG talk page but have yet to get a meaningful reply. I remembered you're part of WP:FINANCE and really helped me with sourcing issues for FASB. If you've got the time, could you take a look? My concern is that any sources I've found for the information are all future-facing and don't reflect the event actually occurring. If I could find a suitable source I'd suggest a rewrite, but in the absence of one, would it be appropriate to remove the content in question?--FacultiesIntact (talk) 00:51, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hello! Just wanted to drop you a friendly note to see if you got my message over at Talk:American International Group. I know things can get a little hectic this time of year. I appreciate all the feedback you've given me, and I'm curious to hear your opinion.--FacultiesIntact (talk) 23:57, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hi - I saw - but I disagree (I think it is relevant) with you and didn't want to repeat myself - letting other folk chime in there. Icewhiz (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- There hasn't been a whole lot of activity over there. Do you think it'd be appropriate to open an WP:RFC? I'd also be interested in hearing from some others.--FacultiesIntact (talk) 02:24, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
- Hi - I saw - but I disagree (I think it is relevant) with you and didn't want to repeat myself - letting other folk chime in there. Icewhiz (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
Editing Israel-Arab conflict ban
I just want to ask why do you prohibit users who edit about the Israel-Arab conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pixarkid101 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Pixarkid101: It is not me. Please read WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 and the full case there to see Arbcom's reasoning.Icewhiz (talk) 17:01, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Strange edit of yours
[9] There are Jews who are Christian, Muslim or Buddhist.I myself have partially Jewish(Ashkenazi ancestor from 18th century) background and I am an atheist.Let's not dicate our articles based on some religious hardliner beliefs.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- I, concurrently, wrote on the article talk page, please respond there. There is no indication this individual (Christian at birth, one parent a convert) identified or presented himself as partially Jewish. We generally do not racially classify bios.Icewhiz (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Please help to remove the picture of Birkenau camp misused by a denialist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2018_December_13#File:Toeben.jpg Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Do you really accept such pictures? http://www.toben.biz/ ?Xx236 (talk) 08:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- I actually found the link to toben.biz (which was in our article and I removed) as much more problematic. Also the infobox there was a big problem (as it did not present what he was known for). As for the photo itself - I think it is ironic (a convicted Holocaust denier photographed before a camp!) and if at all negative to Toben when presented in a neutral article. I am aware that Toben uses this as propaganda (in the course of his denial) - but our article is not doing so (and nor should it!). Presented outside of the context of advocating denial, I don't see how the photo itself advocates denial nor expertise - if at all it exhibits denial.Icewhiz (talk) 08:17, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Blanket reverts
This is disruptive. Forget that you slyly put in "Israeli-held" instead of Syrian, in your zeal to protect Wikipedia from including links to Israeli occupation of the West Bank, your blanket revert also removed archive links to sources in the article. Kindly do not make such blanket reverts in the future. nableezy - 10:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Good morning. Please do avoid personal attacks.Icewhiz (talk) 10:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- That edit was disruptive. There is no personal attack. Please avoid making disruptive edits in the future. nableezy - 10:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- No - what is disruptive is nominating articles you do not like for AfD with no policy legs to stand on. Reverting challenged edits without discussion - as you have done in a number of articles is disruptive as well.Icewhiz (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- So, removing archive links to webpages, thats what exactly? Good editing? No policy grounds? WP:NOT is a policy, sorry. Im unaware of any challenged edits I have reverted without discussion. nableezy - 10:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- No - what is disruptive is nominating articles you do not like for AfD with no policy legs to stand on. Reverting challenged edits without discussion - as you have done in a number of articles is disruptive as well.Icewhiz (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- That edit was disruptive. There is no personal attack. Please avoid making disruptive edits in the future. nableezy - 10:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
NPR Newsletter No.16 15 December 2018
Hello Icewhiz,
- Reviewer of the Year
This year's award for the Reviewer of the Year goes to Onel5969. Around on Wikipedia since 2011, their staggering number of 26,554 reviews over the past twelve months makes them, together with an additional total of 275,285 edits, one of Wikipedia's most prolific users.
- Thanks are also extended for their work to JTtheOG (15,059 reviews), Boleyn (12,760 reviews), Cwmhiraeth (9,001 reviews), Semmendinger (8,440 reviews), PRehse (8,092 reviews), Arthistorian1977 (5,306 reviews), Abishe (4,153 reviews), Barkeep49 (4,016 reviews), and Elmidae (3,615 reviews).
Cwmhiraeth, Semmendinger, Barkeep49, and Elmidae have been New Page Reviewers for less than a year — Barkeep49 for only seven months, while Boleyn, with an edit count of 250,000 since she joined Wikipedia in 2008, has been a bastion of New Page Patrol for many years.
See also the list of top 100 reviewers.
- Less good news, and an appeal for some help
The backlog is now approaching 5,000, and still rising. There are around 640 holders of the NPR flag, most of whom appear to be inactive. The 10% of the reviewers who do 90% of the work could do with some support especially as some of them are now taking a well deserved break.
- Really good news - NPR wins the Community Wishlist Survey 2019
At #1 position, the Community Wishlist poll closed on 3 December with a resounding success for NPP, reminding the WMF and the volunteer communities just how critical NPP is to maintaining a clean encyclopedia and the need for improved tools to do it. A big 'thank you' to everyone who supported the NPP proposals. See the results.
- Training video
Due to a number of changes having been made to the feed since this three-minute video was created, we have been asked by the WMF for feedback on the video with a view to getting it brought up to date to reflect the new features of the system. Please leave your comments here, particularly mentioning how helpful you find it for new reviewers.
If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, go here.
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Voting now open for "Military historian of the year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" awards
Voting for our annual Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year awards is open until 23:59 (GMT) on 30 December 2018. Why don't you vote for the editors who you believe have made a real difference to Wikipedia's coverage of military history in 2018? MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Because it seems like you need to be reminded...
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have recently shown interest in living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect: any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or any page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
Template:Z33 — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 11:01, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Since youve seemingly admitted to it, if you continue to follow my contributions for the sole aim of opposing my edits I will seek administrative redress. Thank you for your cooperation. nableezy - 15:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
- No, I have not admitted to this.
"correcting related problems on multiple articles"
is correct use of editor history.Icewhiz (talk) 16:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)- Sure buddy, this isnt an admission. Regardless, you do it again off to AE we go. nableezy - 16:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Changes on Iran page
Hi Icewhiz,
The heavily political paragraph on current Iranian government should not be in the introduction. See Spanish, or Italian wikipedia pages on the country. See English wikipedia pages on any other country. Political and government related topics are never discussed in the intro.
Rahdar Danesh (talk) 05:11, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. Political issues are often discussed in intros when relevant - see 3rd and 4th paragraphs in North Korea. Icewhiz (talk) 06:27, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
Then that page needs to be edited as well. Extensive political arguments (and counterarguments) are not commonly present in intro. Finding 1 other example out of many does not prove a norm.
Rahdar Danesh (talk) 16:25, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- One of many. See Syria, Sudan, or (to break the run on S) Myanmar. The inclusion of such material in the lede is a per-country decision based on how sources cover the topic.Icewhiz (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
For Sudan, Syria, and Myanmar there are brief description about the facts of the "civil wars", there is not any argument for or against the parties involved in the civil wars. Inclusion of political viewpoints is inappropriate in the intro, those should be discussed in the politics section.
Rahdar Danesh (talk) 20:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- The human rights in Iran are not a political viewpoint, but rather documented sourced reality per secondary RSes. There is not hard and fast rule on this matter. The question of whether it is appropriate or inappropriate (or more to the point - DUE or UNDUE) - depends on the country and situation in question. Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
The paragraph is not only about human rights, rather about a range of issues. The paragraph is clearly assuming a position against a political entity. It would make sense to limit such discussions (for or against governments) to the "government and politics" section. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 14:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
"Government and politics" need to be discussed under "government and politics" section to highlight neutrality. Comparison with other languages on the matter may show a cultural bias which is against WP:NPOV, see Anglo-American focus in NPOV/FAQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus. Furthermore, it is common sense to discuss a topic under its appropriate title. "Agriculture" should be discussed under "agriculture". It it is not good writing/organization to put a full paragraph about it in the intro, other language pages on the same country and English pages on other countries can be used to understand the relevance and appropriate weight of a topic (such as politics) in the intro. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- Certainly they should be discussed in the body - that does not preclude a summary in the lede.Icewhiz (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
That would be against writing organization if you put everything in the intro. Over-emphasis on politics on one single country is against NPOV. Compare to other languages (for the same country) and compare other countries to see over-emphasis in the intro. Rahdar Danesh (talk) 19:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
- Other countries cover political and human rights in the lede. There might be some place for a trim - shorter summary form.Icewhiz (talk) 19:25, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Happy Saturnalia
Happy Saturnalia | ||
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:58, 18 December 2018 (UTC) |
Happy Holidays
Best wishes for this holiday season! Thank you for your Wiki contributions in 2018. May 2019 be prosperous and joyful. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Noël ~ καλά Χριστούγεννα ~ З Калядамі ~ חנוכה שמח ~ Gott nytt år! |
SMS Vulcano
Hi, in case you didn't know, there may be a dispute between sources on the date of launch-the Polish-language Wikipedia page says 1844. Blythwood (talk) 01:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Ha - (I think) I was not aware of the plwiki entry (which keeps on surprising me (positively) in terms of quality and npov). A year (which can be a few months) might just be the difference between the launch date and entering service date. I am fairly sure that the source I am citing says 1843 - but there might be some source variance (I recall seeing other minor details varying somewhat - I tried to use the sources I trusted more (qualiyy and depth of coverage).Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Season Greetings
- apology. I thought the dates were for the mythical mistress, not the real king. editing while tired.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:12, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Question for help
May I please ask a question for help from an experienced user? How do I interlink from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons Upload Wizard? Thank you--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:38, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- You mean to a file uploaded to commons? The file will be available under the same name in Wikipedia. You can then use the following in Wikipedia to link to it:
- [[File:Steamship Star of the West, with reinforcements for Major Anderson, approaching Fort Sumter.jpg|thumb|Steamship Star of the West approaching Fort Sumter]]
- (see example above). Icewhiz (talk) 16:43, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for answering. I am trying to redirect some pages from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons Upload Wizard because this page is not very accessible.--Wyn.junior (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- What specifically are you trying to redirect? Because that doesn't quote make sense to me (unless this is some policy page?). Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am trying to make it easier for people to Upload Files.--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- If you want to create an off-site redirect (to another Wiki).... I'm not sure how you do that. If you just want to link - well normal square brackets work (and there a way to create an interwiki link - not sure about commons). Probably best to ask someone versed in markup - I'm not really sure how to do what you want to do. Icewhiz (talk) 16:21, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am trying to make it easier for people to Upload Files.--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- What specifically are you trying to redirect? Because that doesn't quote make sense to me (unless this is some policy page?). Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for answering. I am trying to redirect some pages from Wikipedia to Wikimedia Commons Upload Wizard because this page is not very accessible.--Wyn.junior (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
icewhizz
you are operating in bad faith and propagandising wiki content and, imo, should be sanctioned. who do i complain to? Msjenniferjames (talk) 04:17, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions for American politics
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have recently shown interest in post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor. Bishonen | talk 22:03, 15 January 2019 (UTC).
Did you even read Simon223's edit summary before you made this revert, or read the two separate bits he had restored? Why remove both? I don't know if that was lack of care, or tendentiousness, but it wasn't good. Bishonen | talk 22:05, 15 January 2019 (UTC).
- I did. One bit was sourced to a blog (Atlas Shrugged - yes hers, but possibly UNDUE and FRIND concerns), when we have no lack of secondary sources covering her. The other bit was sourced to the SPLC, which we usually attribute. Geller should probably be described as right-wing or far-right - but this should be based on the way she is described in the majority of secondary sources (which per my check seem to focus on Islamophobia and not the right/left divide - e.g. this BBC profile does not contain far right - though it is highly critical of her (bigoted in the headline)).Icewhiz (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- And I will note - language not supported by the cited SPLC source (which I checked now) - which seems like a rather big issue.Icewhiz (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- And, it would seem, that this misrepresentation of sources (the cited source dìd not say this) and BLP vio was rejected at an RfC - diff. If there was anything tendentiousness there - it was the misrepresentation followed by IDHT that lead to this RfC (with an obvious result). Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Help
Hi, sorry if I did something wrong. I opened the arbitration request as a genuine case.
I have edited in good faith even if poor. I have only just passed 100 edits so help rather than going straight after me would be helpful
Apologies again. I'll not bother editing anymore Alex Tiffin (talk) 10:47, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Help
Hi, sorry if I did something wrong. I opened the arbitration request as a genuine case.
I have edited in good faith even if poor. I have only just passed 100 edits so help rather than going straight after me would be helpful
Apologies again. I'll not bother editing anymore Alex Tiffin (talk) 10:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Which source?
Please answer.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC) The book about post-war literature. Typical manipulation.Xx236 (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
An invitation to discussion
I kindly invite you to the discussion on Template talk:Infobox election#The Bolding issue to decide whether to bold the winner in the election infobox. Lmmnhn (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- I try to stay clear of MOS issues (I let the style aficionados duke it out, I do try to follow MOS to the best of my very limited ability but I probably make many mistakes and I (almost) never contest one style over another.... This is a hugely important part of the project for some editors - just not me). Icewhiz (talk) 08:06, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
John Radzilowski
Please explain the reason for seeking to delete this page. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AK Piast (talk • contribs) 22:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I explained in my nom - IMHO, failing WP:NPROF amd WP:GNG.Icewhiz (talk) 04:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for leading me to a new tool to measure readable prose size - XTools
Icewhiz, thank you for making me learn something new. I was writing to you asking how you determined prose size for Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and listing how I thought it could be done, when I looked again at Wikipedia:Article size, and right there under the paragraph for readable prose was a link to the tool XTools. I tried it on the Israeli occupation article, on the Beatles article, and on a very long list article, and I was amazed at what it showed. The Beatles article took over a minute to chew through, but showed a readable prose under the 100,000 suggested split limit, while the very long list, the largest article in Wikipedia, showed a prose of 51 characters, which is how I interpreted what it meant to be readable prose vs. tables and lists. Mostly you don't care about this, I would imagine, so basically, this is a thanks for leading this horse to water. Mburrell (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Try installing User:Dr pda/prosesize (also there) - it lets you measure on revisions as well (and not just the current rev - which is all I managed with XTools). I think both have issues in some cases (e.g. in the occupation article it doesn't count the notes as prose - well since notes are usually refs or small notes.... not 50k+ of text.... and in some cases counting tables does make sense...) - but they work better than dumping into an external word counter (which is a fall back for exceptions).Icewhiz (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
ADL
The RFC you started has been finished could you implement its decision --Shrike (talk) 07:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Please check WP:AE, Huldra (talk) 22:38, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
DYK for Israeli law in the West Bank settlements
On 2 February 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Israeli law in the West Bank settlements, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Amnon Rubinstein coined the term "enclave law" to describe Israeli law in the West Bank settlements? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Israeli law in the West Bank settlements), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
— Maile (talk) 00:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Yiddish newspaper AFDs
Hi, I appreciate your finding sources for Maalos and Beleichtungen, but I just wanted to say that it's unlikely someone will take the time to fill in the references so the articles won't end up at AFD again. The creator of Maalos has already said that he doesn't have access to the internet; he just comes up with the sources and hopes someone else will write the article for him. Yoninah (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes - but it does have a crosswiki and is a useful stub - even if poorly sourced. I can throw refs in the articles for their existence. @תנא קמא: is a new editor, and yes - he has internet filter limitations. He does need to learn the ropes. But he also brings an important voice - how many editors whose mother tongue and main language is Yiddish, and edit Wikipedia, do you think we have? Close to zero - or I'd say one. The stuff he is creating is mostly notable - it just needs to be reffed better.Icewhiz (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Civility Barnstar | |
Well done for keeping cool and calm in Talk:Pamela Geller#Discussion. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 11:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC) |
- Amen! I came here to give you exactly this award after reading at Talk:Ahed Tamimi the remarkable civility and coolheadedness with which you discussed the actual textual content of sources and steadfastly kept the conversation focused on achieving accurate, neutral coverage of things that have been published about the topic. Keep fighting the good fight! -Bryanrutherford0 (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Argument with R9tgokunks
Please see WP:ANI#Icewhiz and R9tgokunks. Nyttend (talk) 13:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
AFD (apology)
Hi Icewhiz. I just wanted to reassure you that I was not thinking of you at all when I mentioned the IP. But as I was rereading it I realized I ought to go back and CE to make clear that they proposed the deletion of the page. But then there was a pile-on of edit-conflicts while I was trying to fix it, so I gave up. Actually, I like the story about the lab computer that anyone could have edited from better, because I think it no great crime that the IP added some info to that page about the game. So no, I wasn't targeting you at all, and I'm sorry that my technical misuse of nominated when I should have said proposed may have felt like I was slinging mud at you. SashiRolls t · c 15:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- No worries - it was clear to me you were referring to the PRODing IP - it just was not clear from the language (PROD being a proposal, not a nomination). I do think it is unlikely the same person is behind the IP today (which geolocates to a university) in relation to 2016 - shared use and user churn.Icewhiz (talk) 16:00, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Arbitration advice
Hi! First of all, I want to thank you for your comments on my talk page.
I've now been unblocked, and I'd like to ask for your advice regarding the arbitration enforcement of articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If I'm able to edit an Israel-related article (even though I've not yet reached 500 edits), should I assume that it's not related to the Arab-Israeli conflict unless I think the opposite is likely? VwM.Mwv (talk) 12:15, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- @VwM.Mwv: I just left a long list on your talk page. The short answer is no, you may not assume that. Many pages that are conflict related are not ECP protected (someone needs to request that - and existence of the blue ECP protection is spotty - particularly in new pages or less visited pages). The lack of presence of an ARBPIA header in the talk page also means nothing (users place that manually) - though if it is present - it is a strong indication editors think it is conflict related. I would generally assume, as a rule of thumb, that anything that mentions Israeli in conjunction with Arabs/Palestinians (in almost any context) or regional conflict - is conflict related. The 500/30 line is enforced harshly - and particularly so towards users who have already been at AE. So if it somehow remotely sounds related - assume it is related.Icewhiz (talk) 12:25, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Got it! 👍 VwM.Mwv (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- User:VwM.Mwv Just to clarify you may not edit talk pages relating to the conflict too till you reach 500 edits as per sanction that was put by admin --Shrike (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
notifications
When you mention somebody, it is polite to notify them. nableezy - 16:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- When they are the subject of a discussion, generally I would agree, yes. Icewhiz (talk) 16:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- So start doing it please. nableezy - 17:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
There a reason you continue to decline notifying me when you bring me up? Hell, you dont even mention my username to avoid that notification. nableezy - 01:22, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was querying a user regarding their action - not yours.Icewhiz (talk) 03:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- About me. Anyway, the fifth or sixth admin you bring this up to might take your side on this finally, who knows. But try to give me the opportunity to respond please. nableezy - 03:40, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
A solace, pehraps
As I commented on AE, I used to be much more active in conflict resolution (and conflicts...) long time ago. It was stressful, and I am very glad I was able to change my attitude and these days I find wiki much less stressful. We don't have to save the world. Things will work out. Relax. Take a WP:CUP of tea, and check out my mini-essays here: User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom. I wrote them around the time I decided to change my attitude and retire from 'the fight'. I have to say I am much happier these days than back then. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Something about AGF if someone (say, myself) challenges content as a misrepresentation of a source / OR - AGF is to assume they are correct unless you have verified vs. The sources:
- I do have access to sources (including Polish) - and when I make such a statement it is based on finding at least one bit that has not been verified.
- My initial revert was based on such a finding - and I said "OR, misrepresentation of sources"
- I also had a very strong hunch of possible copy pasting from a SPS - I had evidence to this effect - but I did not say so initially since this required more evidence for an assertion of fact.
- I have subsequently spent quite a bit of time both verifying exactly what was copy pasted and what was paraphrased (in part, inaccurately vs. the SPS) - and after I did that, I asserted that as well.
- I have also compiled additional inaccuracies (or assertions that do not appear in the cited sources) - all this at quite some investment of time.
- BRD (as well as reducing conflict and tension here) - would be to reinstate challenged material only after you actually verified each bit you return. Thank you.Icewhiz (talk) 05:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- BTW - I have for the most part (aside from touching one article that has been absent attention for years, and contained an issue that popped up on a text search) - been sticking to lower stress stuff - been doing lots of AfD work (a few of which popped a smile across my face - dealing with more arcane topic at semi-random is something I enjoy)..... I suggest you take a long hard look at User:Icewhiz/Illustration and consider what you would have done if you spotted this in the work of a student or colleague. Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think we can both agree that deleting spam is low-stress enjoyable activity (outside of the realization how much of this garbage is out there). Regarding the sourcing, I will review it in more detail when I have more time, but as you might have noted I myself removed the sentence about 'Jewish fraud' (through not because there were sourcing issue, but because it is simply irrelevant - sure there was Jewish fraud, and proportionally more Polish fraud, because it is reasonable equal % of any ethnicity will commit fraud, so what? Undue, irrelevant, offtopic, coatrack, sigh). But it seems to me you are mostly suggesting plagiarism issue, rather than falsification of sources. And when it comes to the translation, well, determining what has been plagriarized and what is simply summarized is a major pain. I honestly doubt dealing with plagiarism through translation is anyone's good use of time, since it is just a variation of copyright paranoia. Technically, it may be a problem, realistically? I for one do not intend to spend my time on this particular issue, I'd rather hunt and nominate some more WP:CORPSPAM :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- While I challenged this on sourcing (misrepresentation of what was cited (and despite the ref-bombing - I checked much of it) + miss-attribution in that Mark Paul from which this was based on (+citation copied as is) was not cited as a source - Wikipedia:Plagiarism) - there are in fact severe WP:FRINGE / WP:NPOV / WP:V issues. this begins with the mundane (non-POV) fact that there were several decrees/laws (Feb(?IIRC) 1945, May 1945, March 1946) replacing one another. And continues with the assertions in the fragment being different from any mainstream English academic work in the field (as well as non-English works whom I am familiar with - e.g. the cited Klucze i kasa leads one to a different conclusion from reading it). While there are varying POVs on Polish restitution - what's currently in the article is simply outside of the ballpark. You can look at the multiple sources I sprinkled through my AE report, or perhaps at the rather short summary (two paragraphs) here:
- I think we can both agree that deleting spam is low-stress enjoyable activity (outside of the realization how much of this garbage is out there). Regarding the sourcing, I will review it in more detail when I have more time, but as you might have noted I myself removed the sentence about 'Jewish fraud' (through not because there were sourcing issue, but because it is simply irrelevant - sure there was Jewish fraud, and proportionally more Polish fraud, because it is reasonable equal % of any ethnicity will commit fraud, so what? Undue, irrelevant, offtopic, coatrack, sigh). But it seems to me you are mostly suggesting plagiarism issue, rather than falsification of sources. And when it comes to the translation, well, determining what has been plagriarized and what is simply summarized is a major pain. I honestly doubt dealing with plagiarism through translation is anyone's good use of time, since it is just a variation of copyright paranoia. Technically, it may be a problem, realistically? I for one do not intend to spend my time on this particular issue, I'd rather hunt and nominate some more WP:CORPSPAM :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- BTW - I have for the most part (aside from touching one article that has been absent attention for years, and contained an issue that popped up on a text search) - been sticking to lower stress stuff - been doing lots of AfD work (a few of which popped a smile across my face - dealing with more arcane topic at semi-random is something I enjoy)..... I suggest you take a long hard look at User:Icewhiz/Illustration and consider what you would have done if you spotted this in the work of a student or colleague. Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
"Although the decrees regarding the status of abandoned and allegedly ownerless property confiscated by the Germans, published in the beginning of 1945, did not mention Jewish property as a distinct category, Poles and Jews alike clearly understood that one of their primary goals was to prevent Jewish property from returning to Jewish hands.19" Under the emerging category of ‘abandoned property’ (mienie opuszczone) fell all assets belonging to Polish citizens and organisations that had been confiscated during the war by the German occupiers, and others properties whose owners were absent for different reasons. According to the new legalization, those properties, as well as properties belonging to German citizens and institutions, were to be automatically nationalized.20 The fact that in occupied Poland only Jewish property as such was officially confiscated by the Germans, along with the unprecedented extermination rate of Polish Jews, suggested that ‘abandoned property’ was in many ways tantamount to ‘Jewish property.’21
"The severe limitations placed on the possibility of reclaiming private property only further emphasized the extent to which the new legislation affected the status of Jewish property. In contrast to the pre-war law that allowed second-degree relatives the right to claim property, under the new, postwar regulations only the original owners or direct heirs could ask for restitution.22 In light the scale of the destruction of Polish Jewry, regaining Jewish family assets was to become an almost impossible task. Jewish leaders understood this problem very well and led the protests against the new legislation.23 Polish officials did not try to conceal that the change in the inheritance laws were aimed mainly at preventing the restitution of Jewish property.24 As the then Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs explained of the new legalization in October 1945: ‘We will not permit some foreign Jews, for instance Argentinian Jews, to inherit property in Poland.’25 In internal discussions regarding the formulation of the new laws, some of the participants argued that their purpose was to prevent the concentration of too much wealth in the hand of ‘unproductive and parasite factors’ and to preclude the inheritance of property by ‘distant relatives in Argentina who engage in despicable jobs.’26"
- From: Weizman, Yechiel. "Unsettled possession: the question of ownership of Jewish sites in Poland after the Holocaust from a local perspective." Jewish Culture and History 18.1 (2017): 34-53..
- So while I had challenged this as a misuse of a PRIMARY 1947 source (whose statement isn't wrong - just misleading - since there are two BIG IFs in the statement that precluded return of the vast majority of property (owner/direct descendant, and "state control" - which included state control of property confiscated by the Nazis)), OR / misrepresentation (not in source or counter to the source), and Wikipedia:Plagiarism (as demonstrated in User:Icewhiz/Illustration) - the problem lies also with the content which does not conform to mainstream coverage. Icewhiz (talk) 07:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- On a lighter note - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Argos (dog) (closed just now as speedy keep now, so no canvassing concerns) - cracked a huge smile on my face yesterday - had fun looking into the research performed on the canine friend of Ulysses. Icewhiz (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Ha. May I suggest copying those finds from AfD to a 'further reading' section in the article proper? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:50, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- On a lighter note - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Argos (dog) (closed just now as speedy keep now, so no canvassing concerns) - cracked a huge smile on my face yesterday - had fun looking into the research performed on the canine friend of Ulysses. Icewhiz (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Your mentee needs some serious mentoring
Because this isn't inflammatory at all... Yunshui 雲水 10:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
re: KPK
Interesting. I wonder if they'd be notable. It has been a while since I looked into far right orgs, TBH none has really become relevant to my editing since Vilnija ~10 years ago... which now that I look at may need some NPOVing again, sigh. PS. Ping User:K.e.coffman, who also may be interested in stubbing an entry in KPK. It is always nice if an outcome of some dispute leads to more content, IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:17, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
I've expanded the article and I think it would make an interesting DYK. I'd appreciate it if could check it for possibly NPOV issues, and if you have any suggestions on which hooks, feel free to suggest them. PS. My current hook idea is "...that the Alfonse Pogrom, a riot involving mostly Jewish workers and underground in Warsaw, 1905, led to debates and reforms related to prostitution in Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:24, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) I would suggest, per NOENG, relying solely on English publications - in this case there are a good number of academic sources, in English, covering this in depth - since this was a unique event, involving the Bund (organized labor), as well as sexual slavery there really is no lack of academic English sources (as this is subject matter of interest). If we do this - then meeting V / NPOV will be easier. In terms of NPOV - "rioting" may be incorrect (the Russian police, who tried to organize a counter-pogrom described this in this manner - but I think good sources here differ a bit in usage - e.g. "series of attacks" - this was very organized). The connection to the Russian-wide 1905 revolution needa to be stressed (as it is in the sources). There are also issues with "pogrom" - it is probably the COMMONNAME (following the local presss) - but techically possibly inaccurate - I see some sources scare quoting this.Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- In terms of hook - I'd be careful with "riot" - and I think the current hook is boring or not hooky - though it will work. Bund organized labor is probably better than the socialist dialect of "workers". Perhaps a hook on the Bund member trying to save his sister. Or the Bund attacks leading the Russian police to try (and fail! Warsaw was well outside of the Russian "pogrom zone" - true during the Russian period and also during WWII (the major Jewish-Polish violence being well to the east)). This was a really interesting event - and a hooky hook might hook in many readers.Icewhiz (talk) 04:48, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- e.g. maybe hookier: ... that 3 days of violence in Warsaw ,known as the 1905 Alfonse Pogrom, were possibly sparked by a Bund activist trying to save his sister from sexual slavery? Icewhiz (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Same but shorter: .... that in 1905 three days of violence in Warsaw were possibly sparked by a Bund activist trying to save his sister from sexual slavery?Icewhiz (talk) 08:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- In terms of hook - I'd be careful with "riot" - and I think the current hook is boring or not hooky - though it will work. Bund organized labor is probably better than the socialist dialect of "workers". Perhaps a hook on the Bund member trying to save his sister. Or the Bund attacks leading the Russian police to try (and fail! Warsaw was well outside of the Russian "pogrom zone" - true during the Russian period and also during WWII (the major Jewish-Polish violence being well to the east)). This was a really interesting event - and a hooky hook might hook in many readers.Icewhiz (talk) 04:48, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Very disappointing
I am working hard, in a bipartisan manner, to fix a long running issue. If you wish to pick up the mantle, please go ahead. If not, please don’t stand in the way. I asked you for something very small, to avoid encouraging others to turn this into a partisan-style vote. Why did you choose to take an adversarial position on this?
Onceinawhile (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- The title you suggested is not close to being factual (or neutral). I actually agreed with much of what you had to suggest (e.g. a common prefix). This discussion might have gotten off to a better start had a "pre discussion" involving more than two editors been aired in a relevant WikiProject or on the page. As it is - you are laying down a concrete proposal - instead of trying to take "baby steps" towards building consensus. As someone who actually agrees with some of what you are trying to accomplish, achieving one at a time, might be more productive -
- Consensus on how many sub-articles (frankly - I would leave the present parent/two subs - and open this up later).
- Consensus the different sub-articles (if there is more than 1) - should have a common prefix.
- And after 1&2 - consensus on the prefix and suffixes.
- A friendly suggestion. And you might get my support for much of it. So far - you're dickering with me over how I format my response (which was rather standard) - instead of discussing substance. Icewhiz (talk) 16:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is factual: the key facts about the war are that it was primarily in 1948, was in a place then known as Palestine, and during the war Israel was created. Personally I think that the correct terminology is 1948 Palestine war, but I was/am willing to compromise on being too purist if it will help reach a solution here.
- I did have a pre-pre-discussion here: Talk:1948_Arab–Israeli_War#Start_of_the_war?. It wasn’t advertised.
- My post today is intended to be a widely participative pre-discussion. That is exactly why I find your “vote” so unhelpful. It risks turning a pre-discussion into a vote. You might think I could have made my post more flexible, but that is simply a judgement call as to what might catalyze the most interaction and thought.
- As to your advice above, I think it is very sensible. I was planning to start with a simple merge debate until I read the merge debate in the archives from many years ago, which was a mess. Sure, consensus may be very different today, but I found it hard to believe there will be consensus for merging. There’s nothing inherently wrong with having the sub-articles, as I think you are implying as well.
- So I propose that, after the current discussion has run its course, to skip your first step, and go straight to your second.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 19:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Technical
Re: [10]. Visual explorer cite will format the book ref nicely, I use visual mode often for handling or refs, much better than manual tempalate filling. But for books, I in fact use https://reftag.appspot.com as for some reason our VE book cite won't recognize page numbers, which reftag will (just make sure to copy the page link, not the search link, from GBooks). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I type this in via hand (or copy paste part of it - e.g. the title, authors) and edit in source mode - it is easier for me to work without an additional tool for this. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks. Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Ymblanter put in PC protection; I went ahead and blocked that range for a bit: it has an extensive block record for POV edit warring. Ymblanter, maybe semi-protection is warranted for this, and if you're any good at rangeblocking, feel free to expand it if edits are coming from just outside of it. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 19:04, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I added a week semi, since disruption continued. If it resumes after a week, we will need a long-term semi.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter:, @Drmies: - it does seem to me wider than jist this article. The 64-bit IP from around NJ has been active on Naliboki massacre (which in far right media is used as a trope) - though recently the same edits have been picked up there by a Polish 32-bit. Also in November on Koniuchy massacre (similar trope - in both cases real events, the trope is over emphasizing Jewish participation in Soviet forces and using these as a counter-example to any Polish wrongdoing - someone analyzed this in a phd I can drag up). Also Katyń Memorial (Jersey City), Steven Fulop - and a few more I do not remember (A few months ago I had the feeling they were following edits and would come up to revert once or twice. Other than that - they stick to an article and edit-war over the same content for years - at a low pace - e.g. in Naliboki they are trying to insert (as a source for "Jewish") a photograph from lamoth musuem which just shows a bunch of partisans in the forest - not addressing the specific event - see Feb 2019, March 2018, Feb 2018. They are very persistent on some articles they pick - I can scratch my brain for more if that helps?Icewhiz (talk) 20:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- I semi-protected the Naliboki article (indefinitely--I don't see the point in us returning periodically to mop up every time some neo-Nazi comes by). I looked at the others but they seem to be OK so far. That mayor, Fulop, if that gets vandalized again, please report at RFPP or tell me. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Will do. Not neo-nazis - Polish nationalists are quite distinct - and very much hate Nazis (and communists). Naliboki village is a sad story - a few months after the Soviets killed many of the menfolk (many of whom were in the Home Army in parallel to heing in a Nazi sanctioned self defense unit) - the Nazis destroyed the village and killed most of the inhabitants as a reprisal for a Polish attack.Icewhiz (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- I semi-protected the Naliboki article (indefinitely--I don't see the point in us returning periodically to mop up every time some neo-Nazi comes by). I looked at the others but they seem to be OK so far. That mayor, Fulop, if that gets vandalized again, please report at RFPP or tell me. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter:, @Drmies: - it does seem to me wider than jist this article. The 64-bit IP from around NJ has been active on Naliboki massacre (which in far right media is used as a trope) - though recently the same edits have been picked up there by a Polish 32-bit. Also in November on Koniuchy massacre (similar trope - in both cases real events, the trope is over emphasizing Jewish participation in Soviet forces and using these as a counter-example to any Polish wrongdoing - someone analyzed this in a phd I can drag up). Also Katyń Memorial (Jersey City), Steven Fulop - and a few more I do not remember (A few months ago I had the feeling they were following edits and would come up to revert once or twice. Other than that - they stick to an article and edit-war over the same content for years - at a low pace - e.g. in Naliboki they are trying to insert (as a source for "Jewish") a photograph from lamoth musuem which just shows a bunch of partisans in the forest - not addressing the specific event - see Feb 2019, March 2018, Feb 2018. They are very persistent on some articles they pick - I can scratch my brain for more if that helps?Icewhiz (talk) 20:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Derek DeGrate article
Hi. thanks for your feedback on the Derek DeGrate article. The article does actually have independent resources in its references. The article was not written to "praise" the subject but to provide insight on musicianship and achievements. Kingtd1 (talk) 07:35, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I only deletion-sorted it (so that others may comment) - the subject matter is outside my expertise, so I did not comment other than place it in relevant listings. If you want to make a case for retention - then commenting at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Derek DeGrate is the correct venue. Icewhiz (talk) 07:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Eric Walberg
Ever heard of him? Looks like a non-notable Middle East expert, new page, created by the experienced editor who created Death of Mohammad Habali , not by an SPA.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Looks like a fringey writer. Liked the bouncing bunny in Tehran on his twitter though. Suspect not notable, though hard to assess while on my tablet. Might have a notability shot via AUTHOR if the books are reviewed.Icewhiz (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, tho I really did mean, Have you ever heard of him? It seemed odd for such an experienced editor to create a page with so little sourcing. The book reviews I found are, with one exception, in FRINGEy places.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Intimate Violence
Why don't you read? http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140102719170 Xx236 (talk) 14:29, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- I actually have read bits of it + their journal articles prior to it being published (on the same topic, went into the book). They are an interesting read. I created a small bio for Jeffrey Kopstein after using one of the journal articles (I picked up that habit from Piotrus - if I see an author that passes NAUTHOR / NPROF - I create a small stub/start article if we do not have one).Icewhiz (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Re: Your Edit on Jewish Bolshevism
Hey,
Noticed you undid my recent revision. I wanted to check with you whether you felt that it was correct to note "that four out of the six members of the first Bolshevik Executive Committee were Jewish" while removing the second bit. Let me know your thoughts.
Cheers,TorontonianOnlines (talk) 22:29, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE and not from a RS. You are citing a piece in Occidental Observer (republished in unz.com). Major red flags given nature of source.Icewhiz (talk) 22:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- I thought that the reference was from a book, merely republished on UNZ, no? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 00:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- In this case, clearly no.Icewhiz (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Let me be more precise. The work that I was referencing is: "Jewish Dimensions in Modern Visual Culture: Anti-Semitism, Assimilation, Affirmation," as published by Brandeis University Press. Here's a link. How exactly is this not a reliable source? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 06:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Your edit misrepresented the source, as the source merely quoted Ball to illustrate aspects of Ball's own writing.Icewhiz (talk) 07:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Okay I can concede that the source may not be perfect. However, the racial composition of the party is not a matter of opinion. See also: "The Role of the Jews in the Russian Revolutionary Movement", in Slavonic and East European Review, 40 (1961-1962): 167, reprinted in Essential Papers on Jews and the Left, ed. Ezra Mendelsohn, New York University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-8147-5571-2, p.321. & Jonathan Frankel's "Prophecy and Politics: Socialism, Nationalism, and the Russian Jews, 1862-1917" published by the Cambridge University Press. Clearly, it is an indisputable fact that the Jews had a disproportionate representation in both the leadership of the Bolshevik party and the Russian Communist movement as a whole. On Wikipedia itself, it already has a great page on Arkadi Kremer which cites him as "a Russian socialist leader known as the 'Father of the Bund' (the General Jewish Workers' Union in Lithuania, Poland and Russia). This organisation was instrumental in the development of Russian Marxism, the Jewish labour movement and Jewish nationalism." Also take a look at Central Committee elected by the 7th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks). TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia, following most or all reputable sources, generally does not diverge into "racial composition" discourse. Icewhiz (talk) 07:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- If it is a fact that the majority of the Bolshevik leadership were Jews, then how is it can be alleged that stating this is an "anti-Semitic canard." If Wikipedia does not discuss "racial composition" then that entire article should be removed. You can't have it both ways. The article as it stands, alleges that it is false that the Jews were disproportionately represented in the Bolshevik party. That is not accurate as numerous sources demonstrate both on and off the encyclopedia. Either the article needs to be corrected (in order to accurately reflect the historical reality) or needs to be removed (if racial composition discourse does not belong on Wikipedia). Moreover, nearly every biographical article on any individual discusses their ethnicity on the site. Furthermore, the articles that I have referred you to make note of the Jewish ethnic background of mentioned individuals. As a side note, I feel it would make sense to take this discussion to the article talk page? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:33, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- The majority of sources treat this as a false claim, though one dating back many years. Making this claim usually requires various acrobatics - for instance asserting that Vladimir Lenin was "Jewish" based on one grandfather being a Christian who converted from Judaism. Icewhiz (talk) 07:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lenin is commonly regarded as Russian AFAIK. It was a revelation when it came out that he was part-Jewish but that's by-the-by. Let's see what's confirmed for sure going down the list of the elected members of the Central Committee (1918), according to the existing Wiki articles 7th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks). Leon Trotsky, Yakov Sverdlov, Grigory Zinoviev, Grigori Sokolnikov, Mikhail Lashevich, and that's just from a cursory examination and relying solely on Wikipedia itself as a source. Even as is, 5/15 is not insignificant. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- It depends on which particular grouping of Bolsheviks (e.g. where on the rank structure, which event) you take, and furthermore one must take into account that Jews constituted a large percentage of the bourgeoisie and proletariat classes (from which the revolutionaries came) themselves in Western Russia.Icewhiz (talk) 08:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Naturally, there would be fewer of them following Stalin's purges. However, the early days of the Bolshevik party and its precursor in the face of Russian Social Democratic Labour Party were definitely heavily involved with the Jewish community. Do you have any data on that? I would be curious to take a look. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 08:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the General Jewish Labour Bund was, for a time, part of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. The Jewish community, at the time, was rather sizable in (then) Western Russia (Pale of Settlement. Icewhiz (talk) 08:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Certainly. Do you not feel that that connection may be worth noting? I have looked at the talk page of the Jewish Bolshevism article one more time and it appears to me that there is little that can be done to fix it. The process seems doomed because of the following circularity:
- Well, the General Jewish Labour Bund was, for a time, part of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. The Jewish community, at the time, was rather sizable in (then) Western Russia (Pale of Settlement. Icewhiz (talk) 08:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Naturally, there would be fewer of them following Stalin's purges. However, the early days of the Bolshevik party and its precursor in the face of Russian Social Democratic Labour Party were definitely heavily involved with the Jewish community. Do you have any data on that? I would be curious to take a look. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 08:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- It depends on which particular grouping of Bolsheviks (e.g. where on the rank structure, which event) you take, and furthermore one must take into account that Jews constituted a large percentage of the bourgeoisie and proletariat classes (from which the revolutionaries came) themselves in Western Russia.Icewhiz (talk) 08:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lenin is commonly regarded as Russian AFAIK. It was a revelation when it came out that he was part-Jewish but that's by-the-by. Let's see what's confirmed for sure going down the list of the elected members of the Central Committee (1918), according to the existing Wiki articles 7th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks). Leon Trotsky, Yakov Sverdlov, Grigory Zinoviev, Grigori Sokolnikov, Mikhail Lashevich, and that's just from a cursory examination and relying solely on Wikipedia itself as a source. Even as is, 5/15 is not insignificant. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- The majority of sources treat this as a false claim, though one dating back many years. Making this claim usually requires various acrobatics - for instance asserting that Vladimir Lenin was "Jewish" based on one grandfather being a Christian who converted from Judaism. Icewhiz (talk) 07:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- If it is a fact that the majority of the Bolshevik leadership were Jews, then how is it can be alleged that stating this is an "anti-Semitic canard." If Wikipedia does not discuss "racial composition" then that entire article should be removed. You can't have it both ways. The article as it stands, alleges that it is false that the Jews were disproportionately represented in the Bolshevik party. That is not accurate as numerous sources demonstrate both on and off the encyclopedia. Either the article needs to be corrected (in order to accurately reflect the historical reality) or needs to be removed (if racial composition discourse does not belong on Wikipedia). Moreover, nearly every biographical article on any individual discusses their ethnicity on the site. Furthermore, the articles that I have referred you to make note of the Jewish ethnic background of mentioned individuals. As a side note, I feel it would make sense to take this discussion to the article talk page? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:33, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia, following most or all reputable sources, generally does not diverge into "racial composition" discourse. Icewhiz (talk) 07:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Okay I can concede that the source may not be perfect. However, the racial composition of the party is not a matter of opinion. See also: "The Role of the Jews in the Russian Revolutionary Movement", in Slavonic and East European Review, 40 (1961-1962): 167, reprinted in Essential Papers on Jews and the Left, ed. Ezra Mendelsohn, New York University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-8147-5571-2, p.321. & Jonathan Frankel's "Prophecy and Politics: Socialism, Nationalism, and the Russian Jews, 1862-1917" published by the Cambridge University Press. Clearly, it is an indisputable fact that the Jews had a disproportionate representation in both the leadership of the Bolshevik party and the Russian Communist movement as a whole. On Wikipedia itself, it already has a great page on Arkadi Kremer which cites him as "a Russian socialist leader known as the 'Father of the Bund' (the General Jewish Workers' Union in Lithuania, Poland and Russia). This organisation was instrumental in the development of Russian Marxism, the Jewish labour movement and Jewish nationalism." Also take a look at Central Committee elected by the 7th Congress of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks). TorontonianOnlines (talk) 07:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Your edit misrepresented the source, as the source merely quoted Ball to illustrate aspects of Ball's own writing.Icewhiz (talk) 07:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Let me be more precise. The work that I was referencing is: "Jewish Dimensions in Modern Visual Culture: Anti-Semitism, Assimilation, Affirmation," as published by Brandeis University Press. Here's a link. How exactly is this not a reliable source? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 06:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- In this case, clearly no.Icewhiz (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I thought that the reference was from a book, merely republished on UNZ, no? TorontonianOnlines (talk) 00:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- A: Article presently claims that it's an anti-Semitic canard to say that Jews were disproportionately represented in the Bolshevik party.
- B: To look into the actual ethnic backgrounds of the early Bolshevik party leaders is inappropriate on Wikipedia (partially due to OR and partially because the Jewish Bolshevism article is about the 'canard' and not about the potential historical reality of Jewish overrepresentation in the leadership of the early Bolshevik party).
- C: Therefore, the Jewish Bolshevism wiki article continues to allege that the disproportionate number of Jews in the leadership of the early Bolshevik party is only a conspiracy/'canard.'
- I hope that you have found our conversation diplomatic and interesting. I truly hope that I have succeeded in conveying to you the point that I am trying to make. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 08:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- As sources generally treat this as an antisemitic canard, so do we. While I suppose research into the
"racial composition of the party"
is of interest to some, we generally follow Wikipedia:No original research on Wikipedia. Icewhiz (talk) 08:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)- Got it. Thanks for the civil discussion. Have a good night. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- As sources generally treat this as an antisemitic canard, so do we. While I suppose research into the
- I hope that you have found our conversation diplomatic and interesting. I truly hope that I have succeeded in conveying to you the point that I am trying to make. TorontonianOnlines (talk) 08:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
CIS RfC
Hey, we've interacted before and I've always appreciated your editorial point-of-view, especially on issues of anti-semitism. Was hoping to get your thoughts on my response to you at the CIS RfC you recently commented on. I can elaborate more here but my point is that I was worried the anti-semitism charge was being misconstrued in that instance without sufficient backing from RS. That's not really a jab on the SPLC or its hate group designations more broadly--this is a more targeted issue. Would definitely appreciate your thoughts. ModerateMikayla555 (talk) 18:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Commented there.Icewhiz (talk) 18:25, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- The anti-semitic and white nationalists charge is more of a "guilt by association thing" - the more significant (in my eyes) is the SPLC condemmning publications (as nativist) by CIS. The guilt by association being supporting evidence, possibly strongly so.Icewhiz (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- That makes a lot of sense, I appreciate your explanation. ModerateMikayla555 (talk) 18:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Controversies
What is wrong with the information that I added? Please give me detailed explanation so I could fix it.
Bluffer8 (talk) 3:50, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Poor source, badly written, and a from a source with a rather extreme POV.Icewhiz (talk) 04:30, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have not made that up. There are plenty of sources since this topic was widely commented and described by the biggest media in Poland like Polish Television:
- including national news program called Wiadomości:
- the biggest radio in Poland - Polish Radio:
- well known newspapers like Dziennik Polska-Europa-Świat and others:
- https://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/historia/aktualnosci/artykuly/593189,dalej-jest-noc-holokaust-zydzi-ipn-afera.html
- https://dorzeczy.pl/historia/96376/Zydowskich-policjantow-z-getta-zamienili-na-polskich-Odkrycie-historyka-poraza.html
- https://www.wsieciprawdy.pl/sieci-naukowa-mistyfikacja-pnews-3949.html
- or even Google News:
- What would you say if I change (or add) the sources, moderate and temper the content of my section and fix the grammar? Would it be OK? The material I would like to add is honest, respected and professional opinion of professional historian. This opinion is not more controversial than what is already published in the article about Jan Grabowski, so why to hide it and censor?
- Bluffer8 (talk) 1:26, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Media ìn Poland is not a RS on the topic, since 2018, as due to the Holocaust law Polish journalists are unable to publish material on the complicity of the Polish nation or state.
"In February 2018, parliament passed a law criminalizing claims of Polish complicity in crimes committed during the Holocaust, carrying a potential prison sentence of up to three years. Following an international outcry, the government softened the law, making it a civil offense punishable by fine but not incarceration."
Freedom house 2019.Icewhiz (talk) 04:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)- User:Bluffer8, don't listen or be intimidated by the above nonsense. If Icewhiz really wants to argue that Polish sources are wholesale unreliable he can always go to WP:RSN and make that argument. But he won't.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS on you VM. Polish media, despite recent changea, is still usually reliable for most topics. It is not reliable on the narrow topic of WWII history (since 2018) due to the Polish government placing restrictions on allowed discourse.Icewhiz (talk) 04:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, it's actually not. WP:RSN <--- Here. Go there. Try it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS on you to show a source is reliable.Icewhiz (talk) 05:00, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lol, no. ONUS my ANUS. It is NOT up to me to show that an entire country's sources should not be disqualified from being RS just because ... because you said so? It kind of is ONUS on you to explain why you are trying to ban sources on essentially ethnic grounds, even though this time you've made up an excuse for it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- We generally disqualify media from certain countries - e.g. Russian media - due to state control or repression. In this particular instance, the problem with Polish media, to the legal situation created by the Polish government, is limited to a narrow topic area. Icewhiz (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, no, we actually don't. But whatever. RSN. The idea that it's me that has to go to RSN and ask "gee whiz guys, are Polish source reliable or are they wholesale unreliable" is absurd. You can try to pull this stunt if you want to. But you know you'll be laughed out of there. So you won't. Stop bluffing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:07, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I never said Polish sources were "wholesale unreliable". I was very specific - Polish media sources, from 2018 onward, are unreliable on the topic of Holocaust history as Polish legislation - the "Holocaust law" - prohibits publication of mainstream views regarding Polish Holocaust complicity. This is quite similar to the situation in Russia in regards to limitations there on publications on WWII history.[11][12] Icewhiz (talk) 08:01, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sources on the Polish law and its effects on discourse, abound: Holmgren, Beth. "Holocaust History and Jewish Heritage Preservation: Scholars and Stewards Working in PiS-Ruled Poland." Shofar 37.1 (2019): 96-107.,
"But international public opinion has rightly seen the museum takeover and the new law as shameful attempts to rewrite history. Much of Polish opinion, which is critical of the government, shares this view.
Gebert, Konstanty. "Projecting Poland and its past: Poland wants you to talk about the “Polocaust”." Index on Censorship 47.1 (2018): 35-37., Belavusau, Uladzislau, and Anna Wójcik. "La criminalisation de l’expression historique en Pologne: la loi mémorielle de 2018 (Criminalizing Historical Expression in Poland: Memory Law of 2018)." Archives de politique criminelle 40 (2018): 175-188.."This act, which met with harsh international criticism, was once again revised end of June 2018. These revisions are part of a broader strategy by the current national-conservative government led by Law and Justice (PiS3) party, which aims to impose nationally as well as internationally a specific vision, how Polish history shall be publicly presented and commemorated, first of all with regard to World War II and the socialist period.
. Hackmann, Jörg. "Defending the “Good Name” of the Polish Nation: Politics of History as a Battlefield in Poland, 2015–18." Journal of Genocide Research 20.4 (2018): 587-606.. Icewhiz (talk) 08:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sources on the Polish law and its effects on discourse, abound: Holmgren, Beth. "Holocaust History and Jewish Heritage Preservation: Scholars and Stewards Working in PiS-Ruled Poland." Shofar 37.1 (2019): 96-107.,
- I never said Polish sources were "wholesale unreliable". I was very specific - Polish media sources, from 2018 onward, are unreliable on the topic of Holocaust history as Polish legislation - the "Holocaust law" - prohibits publication of mainstream views regarding Polish Holocaust complicity. This is quite similar to the situation in Russia in regards to limitations there on publications on WWII history.[11][12] Icewhiz (talk) 08:01, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, no, we actually don't. But whatever. RSN. The idea that it's me that has to go to RSN and ask "gee whiz guys, are Polish source reliable or are they wholesale unreliable" is absurd. You can try to pull this stunt if you want to. But you know you'll be laughed out of there. So you won't. Stop bluffing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:07, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- We generally disqualify media from certain countries - e.g. Russian media - due to state control or repression. In this particular instance, the problem with Polish media, to the legal situation created by the Polish government, is limited to a narrow topic area. Icewhiz (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lol, no. ONUS my ANUS. It is NOT up to me to show that an entire country's sources should not be disqualified from being RS just because ... because you said so? It kind of is ONUS on you to explain why you are trying to ban sources on essentially ethnic grounds, even though this time you've made up an excuse for it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS on you to show a source is reliable.Icewhiz (talk) 05:00, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, it's actually not. WP:RSN <--- Here. Go there. Try it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS on you VM. Polish media, despite recent changea, is still usually reliable for most topics. It is not reliable on the narrow topic of WWII history (since 2018) due to the Polish government placing restrictions on allowed discourse.Icewhiz (talk) 04:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- User:Bluffer8, don't listen or be intimidated by the above nonsense. If Icewhiz really wants to argue that Polish sources are wholesale unreliable he can always go to WP:RSN and make that argument. But he won't.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Media ìn Poland is not a RS on the topic, since 2018, as due to the Holocaust law Polish journalists are unable to publish material on the complicity of the Polish nation or state.
Doesn't matter. It's still ridiculous nonsense. Try WP:RSN. You want to make a blanket declaration on non-reliability unilaterally? No. Try WP:RSN. You won't because you know your position on this is silly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:07, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Censorship/repression of journalists is a grave RS concern. However, as I believe we should be following using higher-quality (preferably academic, and per WP:NOENG - in English when available) sources - I don't quite see the point in launching a RSN discussion on the matter. WP:ONUS to show a source is reliable isn't on me regardless. Icewhiz (talk) 14:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- " I don't quite see the point ..." Riiiigggghhhhtttt.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- For someone who has requested that
"one more time - you are NOT welcome on my talk page. Do not post here again"
- you're awful chatty on mine. Regardless, I believe this particular discussion on censorship in Poland and Russia, both countries enforcing their particular narratives on WWII via law, and implication of such Polish and Russian censorship/repression on WP:RS status of media in said countries has run its course over here. Icewhiz (talk) 15:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- For someone who has requested that
- " I don't quite see the point ..." Riiiigggghhhhtttt.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
So what you are saying is that Polish sources are not valid because you have found some criticism of Polish media and ruling PIS party? It is easy to find criticism of any media any party, even those from the left side. I do not understand your remarks about the law that was a suggestion and has not been applied - it seems off topic. And by the way - one of the sources I gave (Dziennik Polska-Europa-Świat) is owned by Axel Springer SE and Riniger - German and Swiss companies. So once again - please tell me what you think about my suggestion about adding sources and moderate content of the new section. Bluffer8 (talk) 23:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- All these sources, even those critical of PiS, fall under reach of the "Holocaust law" and thus are unable to report freely on the subject of Polish Holocaust complicity.Icewhiz (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
NPR Newsletter No.17
Hello Icewhiz,
- News
- The WMF has announced that Google Translate is now available for translating articles through the content translation tool. This may result in an increase in machine translated articles in the New Pages Feed. Feel free to use the {{rough translation}} tag and gently remind (or inform) editors that translations from other language Wikipedia pages still require attribution per WP:TFOLWP.
- Discussions of interest
- Two elements of CSD G6 have been split into their own criteria: R4 for redirects in the "File:" namespace with the same name as a file or redirect at Wikimedia Commons (Discussion), and G14 for disambiguation pages which disambiguate zero pages, or have "(disambiguation)" in the title but disambiguate a single page (Discussion).
- {{db-blankdraft}} was merged into G13 (Discussion)
- A discussion recently closed with no consensus on whether to create a subject-specific notability guideline for theatrical plays.
- There is an ongoing discussion on a proposal to create subject-specific notability guidelines for chemicals and organism taxa.
- Reminders
- NPR is not a binary keep / delete process. In many cases a redirect may be appropriate. The deletion policy and its associated guideline clearly emphasise that not all unsuitable articles must be deleted. Redirects are not contentious. See a classic example of the templates to use. More templates are listed at the R template index. Reviewers who are not aware, do please take this into consideration before PROD, CSD, and especially AfD because not even all admins are aware of such policies, and many NAC do not have a full knowledge of them.
- NPP Tools Report
- Superlinks – allows you to check an article's history, logs, talk page, NPP flowchart (on unpatrolled pages) and more without navigating away from the article itself.
- copyvio-check – automatically checks the copyvio percentage of new pages in the background and displays this info with a link to the report in the 'info' panel of the Page curation toolbar.
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--MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Problem with adding information to article
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Bluffer8 (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
COI
The Steven Strauss article has a problem with COI. The article seems to be created by its own subject. After removing WP:OR and promotional material, the subject of the article appears to be editing it with two different new accounts (one an IP). I don't have much time to deal with this at the moment. As you are on the COI noticeboard this week, I don't know how I can continue to discuss it with him on talkpage, when he ignores it. Or if I should report the self-editingon the COI noticeboard? I assume I should revert the edits made by the editor with COI, and try to explain the policy again on the talkpage? Thanks! Avaya1 (talk) 20:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Avaya1: - be careful with the COI allegations absent evidence (e.g. you should say "may have COI"). COIN would be the best place to raise this. Another issue here is that they turned the BLP article (on an academic) into an ARBPIA page. New editors aren't allowed to edit this topic per WP:ARBPIA3#General Prohibition - I reverted them + asked at RfPP for the page to be placed under ECP. There's definitely way too much content there based on a single op-ed by the subject - I would presume that if he is notable - he is more notable for more than just this op-ed. Name is difficult to WP:BEFORE - but I would also suggest checking if he passes our notability threshold (if not - AfD) - but you need to do a through BEFORE for that. Icewhiz (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback. Have you read the full history of the article and the talkpage? The talkpage has been edited by what may be the subject of the article, in a manic way, after I made the initial changes, so it looks a bit confusing now.
- The article seems to be written and created by Strauss as a CV/self-promotional piece. I came and edited it to remove that content and to add a few sentences about Israel (the latter is the unimportant issue here). Then subject of the article may have created a new account, and now an IP, and wrote a lot on the talkpage, as well as continued to edit the article. The subject can discuss the article on the talkpage, however, they should not continue to edit the article after they were informed about this. They need to wait for other editors to make those changes (not continue to edit the article which is about themselves). The problem is only the continued editing of the article.
- Removing the Israel related content is not the issue. I agree it might not be notable enough to include. The issue is that the subject of the article should not edit their own article (or ignore this, and create new accounts to continue editing their article). How the article is edited after that is surely another matter, but it should not be edited by the subject of the article.
- I believe the subject is notable. The idea that it is not notable comes from editor who may be the subject of the article. The issue here is simply one of self-editing an article about yourself, and continuing after being informed about the guidelines against this. They should refrain from editing the article themselves, and discuss any changes they want to the article on the talkpage only. Avaya1 (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I raised the notability issue since it wasn't clear to me - if you think he is notable - that's that. (If he wasn't - then AfD is often a good solution to promotional non-notable or borderline-notable articles). The self-editing - at COI/N, or possibly AN/I. Also if he's editing as 2 accounts and an IP (and you have proof to that effect) - that could be seen as socking - WP:SPI would be the venue for that. I didn't read the entire talk page (I did peek - saw it was one big mess) - I did respond to the article being an ARBPIA article at the instant I was looking at it (following the IPs edits - half of it was devoted to one recent Israel related op-ed - an odd proportion given the subject is notable for other fields). Icewhiz (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also - you didn't leave a warning on the IP and editor's talk page - I did so now (a generic user warning on COI - informing of the policy - but nothing beyond informing). Icewhiz (talk) 21:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I believe the subject is notable. The idea that it is not notable comes from editor who may be the subject of the article. The issue here is simply one of self-editing an article about yourself, and continuing after being informed about the guidelines against this. They should refrain from editing the article themselves, and discuss any changes they want to the article on the talkpage only. Avaya1 (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks again. The talkpage was empty before I touched the article. After I saw Strauss may have written his own article, I edited the article to remove some of the self-promotional content and added a few sentences about Israel (the latter may or may not be good edits by me - it's not relevant). Within hours, a new editor registered (who is likely the subject of the article, like the editor who created the article), and wrote many paragraphs of comments on the talkpage, against the edits. That's the reason the talkpage appears to be a mess - it was empty before. I replied twice to him, and he has answered on the talkpage multiple times (which is fine), and changed the subsection titles (which is confusing). I never raised notability concerns with the article (I believe the subject is more than notable enough for an article). This has been raised only by the new editor who appears to be (like the old editor) the subject of the article.
- It would be great if you, or another editor, could carefully go over the whole history of the article, and look at how it was a few weeks ago. I tried to remove self-promoting content, which was based on primary sources. Whether my edits are correct or not, I think it's inappropriate for the subject of the article to register a new account and IP, and use that to continue editing their own article, which they had created. In the COI guideline, it says they should only discuss the article on the talkpage? I've tried to explain that to him on the talkpage. I admit my edits may be imperfect and need to be corrected. But they should be corrected by an editor without COI.
- The COI editing is also not a problem, if it's done by people who are unaware of the policy. But after they've been made aware of the COI policy, that's when they should stop editing the article. Avaya1 (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Generally yes - if you have a COI (auto-bio or any other COI - e.g. working for pay (another bag of worms) or relation to the subject) - you're supposed to not edit the article directly (with the exception of possibly fixing spelling mistakes - and even then... best not) - and stick to talk only (+ clearly indicated your COI). I haven't examined the article in depth yet (I did watchlist it) - however sometimes it isn't the same person - e.g. you can have someone create the article initially for PROMO reasons, and subsequently an interested party (e.g. the subject themselves, a relative, colleague, anyone) might step in later if the article changes or if there are developments. Icewhiz (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- The COI editing is also not a problem, if it's done by people who are unaware of the policy. But after they've been made aware of the COI policy, that's when they should stop editing the article. Avaya1 (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Icewhiz Thank you for the notification so I know this conversation is happening. It might expedite things if you look at the Strauss page before Avaya1's deletions, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Strauss&oldid=884476592 I assume you are an experienced enough editor to spot a promo page.
- Addendum just to be clear - I am not claiming the page pre-Avaya1 was well written, indeed I was trying to rewrite it. I am claiming it had a lot of perfectly reputable high quality secondary source material re Strauss, that should not have been deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by I.new.around.here (talk • contribs) 23:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- BTW User:NYC.Geek is the editor Avaya1 has decided is Strauss or works for Strauss, I am supposed to be the sockpuppet, Icewhiz will you put the formal COI notice on Geek's page?
- Avaya1 claimed he deleted material that was peacockery, promotional material, self-promotion, from primary sources and mainly non-encyclopedic. When I looked I found the material he deleted was (IMO) mainly normal wiki content (at least as I understand that concept, I may not). Note, we can have a separate debate if the article was well written, I am just saying the content passed normal standards (I think) - it was Strauss being interviewed on national CNN, etc - cited in newspapers on his areas on expertise. It also included a bibliography of strauss's publications with a link to a list of his OpEd writings. I don't understand how Wiki can establish notability without this info.
- Avaya1 I think it would greatly expedite everything, if you could provide your proof that Strauss is Geek (or paid Geek, or whatever)
- I am looping in Quisqualis, Avaya1 and were discussing these same issues in the teahouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse and having multiple conversation is confusing
- Avaya1 is the one who added the stuff about Israel, I agree that is not what Strauss is known for, and I tried to delete it from the page - and still can't understand why it was added. I am concerned because IMO what Avaya1 added is not accurate he keeps claiming that Strauss opposes US military aid to Israel - IMO that is not an accurate summary of what Strauss said in the OpEd (and even if it was, Strauss appears to be a domestic economic development expert, it is not clear why his views on this topic are notable)
- My apologies for being "manic", I was trying to work thru the issues. I will try to do better on talk pages in the future.
- Does Wiki have some process for getting some additional editors to look at a page? What are the next steps?
- BTW Just to be transparent, my main goal was better understanding wikipedia, so this process is extremely helpful for me. Thank you for your patience.
- Icewhiz Thank you for the notification so I know this conversation is happening. It might expedite things if you look at the Strauss page before Avaya1's deletions, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Strauss&oldid=884476592 I assume you are an experienced enough editor to spot a promo page.
I.new.around.here (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed, good advice. However, unless anyone objects, my first steps will be to eliminate from the page a few statements that were recently added, that do not appear to be supported by the sources cited. I.new.around.here (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
Have you seen what's happened to the article? - the COI and sockpuppet editing seems to be continuing. How should I proceed to report this? Avaya1 (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Notify the user(s) you report. Be careful with youe language - state your suspicion, but do not state it as fact.Icewhiz (talk) 04:56, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- Avaya1 has again added back the stuff on Strauss's opinions on Israel. It is not what Strauss is notable for, no secondary source on the page references Strauss on Israel.
- Avaya1. has also deleted from the page all the secondary sources CBS, CNBC, CNN, etc that quote Strauss. Avaya1 also deleted that Strauss is an academic, added back claims that are not supported (number of year Strauss worked at Mck) - see Strauss talk page for a discussiom of these issues. I.new.around.here (talk) 12:13, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- The subject writes for a major national newspaper, and has secondary source coverage. The issue with the article is COI. The COI issue should be addressed first. Avaya1 (talk) 01:05, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Historyk IPN
Hello,
Sorry for the previous edit from the account "Historyk IPN", I just have read the information regarding organisation account, here I have added the links again according to the rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krzysztof Kapłon at IPN (talk • contribs) 12:09, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment & Query
Yes I am a person employed by IPN — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krzysztof Kapłon at IPN (talk • contribs) 12:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
DYK for Jonas Noreika
On 20 March 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Jonas Noreika, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Jonas Noreika is commemorated on plaques and street signs in Lithuania, despite his active participation in the Holocaust? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jonas Noreika. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Jonas Noreika), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
3RR
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. -69.119.170.192 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- Copying my warning, eh? There is one edit warrior on that article - vs. multiple users - and is not me.Icewhiz (talk) 21:15, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Please strike out your baseless accusation of disrupting.
I'm serious. I'm not going to tolerate any personal attacks of any form. Especially if it is a baseless slander. I'm too old and I have too much self-respect to allow that to happen. Please strike out you groundless accusations of me disrupting our project as you wrote here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Roman_Dmowski&diff=889108342&oldid=889017775&diffmode=visual Again, please strike out your baseless accusation that offended me deeply. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- Requesting a quotation+page number when a page number has been provided in the well formatted citation (not a "disordered confused source" as you asserted) + a hyperlink has been provided to the page available online.... Is not constructive. As is challenging material readily available in a cursory search in dozens of academic sources. Care to explain why you were looking at my sandbox the other day (+twinkle roll backed it)? Blanking out my question at your talk page struck me as rather rude. Please also explain how you decided to edit today an article I had just edited?Icewhiz (talk) 16:26, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- I really don't want to escalate this any further. I'm asking you again to strike out your baseless acusation. All I did was asking for a quote I could not find from the source. I feel deeply offended by your comment, so please respect that and strike it out. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- As you feel so strongly about this - I struck. However, please see WP:DISRUPTSIGNS(3) in relation to cn tagging the obvious (and sourced by other sources in the paragraph) and then asking for a quotation and page number - when the page number had been provided, and the source was linked and available online - I spent some time chasing down these rather obviously available requests. Please explain why you were viewing my sandbox (leading to an accidental rollback) and then showed up in this article today? Icewhiz (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. And as for your sandbox, it was an accident. For Dmowski, I have him on my watch list.GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:00, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- As you feel so strongly about this - I struck. However, please see WP:DISRUPTSIGNS(3) in relation to cn tagging the obvious (and sourced by other sources in the paragraph) and then asking for a quotation and page number - when the page number had been provided, and the source was linked and available online - I spent some time chasing down these rather obviously available requests. Please explain why you were viewing my sandbox (leading to an accidental rollback) and then showed up in this article today? Icewhiz (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- I really don't want to escalate this any further. I'm asking you again to strike out your baseless acusation. All I did was asking for a quote I could not find from the source. I feel deeply offended by your comment, so please respect that and strike it out. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Please respect the "in use" tag.
On Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party I placed an "in use" tag. This requests other editors to wait until I have finished preparing a long and complicated (but non-controversial) edit, so that it doesn't get messed up by intervening edits.
As it happens, I've encountered an unexpected difficulty, so I'm about to remove the tag, but the principle remains. Surely it isn't hard to wait a little while? Or to actually look at the top of the page?
--NSH001 (talk) 09:25, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:OWN. You didn't actually do any edits, and I started looking at the article prior to you placing the tag. If your edit involves a change to the citation style (to your preferred Harvard style, which generally is less preferred on Wikipedia) - then please note that is quite controversial. Given the mass editing to the article over the past week - you should probably wait until the article is stable prior to making a mass change (even if non-controversial) - the whole thing is liable to get caught up in a revert given that the article is in flux.Icewhiz (talk) 09:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wrong on every point. I don't "own" the article, in fact I don't recall making any changes to it at all - not surprising, as I normally avoid articles which, because of the way the rules on so-called "reliable sources" work are fundamentally wrong, and with little hope of putting them right (though if anybody can do that, it's Nishidani). No, my role here is providing technical support to Nishidani, and he, as the main author, has the right to use the style he prefers. The fact that I didn't make any edits is just pure chance - something came up that I can't be sure of fixing before I have to leave for a hospital appointment (I might have prostate cancer, so I have other things to think about besides Wikipedia). And no, I am not going to cater for editors who are too lazy to make correct edits, rather than reverting without thought. Please - it's just basic politeness and civility to respect an "in use" tag. --NSH001 (talk) 10:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear about the hospital appointment. As for content here - see WP:CITEVAR - neither you nor Nishidani (who is far from the main author on this article) should unilaterally change an article's citation style. As for the tag - I was looking at the article (given the recent massive changes - at the article and prior revisions) - prior to you placing it - and was working on my edits. Your "in use" tag popped up in the middle of my own work which predated it. Icewhiz (talk) 10:11, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- (a) They are not 'massive changes'. They are part of doing what serious editors do, not hang round to tweak or revert what snippets are added, but go systematically through a messy, incomplete text and elaborate where necessary, synthesis where bloat has developed, and replace newspaper reportage where possible with solid academic long term overviews of the topic. The lead you restored was farcical: 'mainstream Jewish groups have expressed concern but leftists defend the party' is totally falsifying and inept, for when the former protest that their fate is Britain is in peril, this is not a 'concern' and it cannot be counterpoised by identifying several distinct groups who dissent from the majority as 'leftists'. POV pushing, understatement etc. Also, you asserted that Lerman, an acknowledged expert, is writing a blog, when his piece, a sober technical analysis of the controversy. appeared on a website run by a notable foundation, no different in substance from the Hudson Institute you cited with approval elsewhere some days ago.Nishidani (talk) 10:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear about the hospital appointment. As for content here - see WP:CITEVAR - neither you nor Nishidani (who is far from the main author on this article) should unilaterally change an article's citation style. As for the tag - I was looking at the article (given the recent massive changes - at the article and prior revisions) - prior to you placing it - and was working on my edits. Your "in use" tag popped up in the middle of my own work which predated it. Icewhiz (talk) 10:11, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wrong on every point. I don't "own" the article, in fact I don't recall making any changes to it at all - not surprising, as I normally avoid articles which, because of the way the rules on so-called "reliable sources" work are fundamentally wrong, and with little hope of putting them right (though if anybody can do that, it's Nishidani). No, my role here is providing technical support to Nishidani, and he, as the main author, has the right to use the style he prefers. The fact that I didn't make any edits is just pure chance - something came up that I can't be sure of fixing before I have to leave for a hospital appointment (I might have prostate cancer, so I have other things to think about besides Wikipedia). And no, I am not going to cater for editors who are too lazy to make correct edits, rather than reverting without thought. Please - it's just basic politeness and civility to respect an "in use" tag. --NSH001 (talk) 10:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
May I put the Antisemitism in the Labour Party lede in chronological order?
Hi,
As this is a multiyear, ongoing saga, I think such an approach would make things clearer for readers. It wouldn't involve other changes to the content. Thanks, Jontel (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Jontel:, @Nishidani: - you don't need my permission, you know. :-). I think Nishidani organized it out of chrono order (apologize if wrong). I think his reorganized first paragraph summary/highlight should stand as is (with some fixes to the final sentence). but the subsequent 4 paragraphs should probably be ordered - it is only the short paragraph starting with
"Corbyn himself was criticised in 2018 for his 2012 Facebook comment"
which is out of chrono - and it might be worth while tacking that onto one of the other paragraphs in chrono order. Icewhiz (talk) 17:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions alert
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have shown interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
Template:Z33 Jonathunder (talk) 21:30, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
D Gums
Doesn't say which article. D Gums (talk) 08:48, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- You haven't edited all that many articles as of now, and the warning is general. Icewhiz (talk) 08:52, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Well all right. I am not going to edit war, but I'll tell you what I will do in about THREE WEEKS TIME. I'm gonna embarrass you by showing you [13] this edit again!! And no I have nothing to do with Sky Bet or any bookmaker. D Gums (talk) 09:11, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Never implied that you did. Just provided a source showing this is not such a sure thing (however, if you disagree, you can always put your money where your mouth is - in the UK). I suggest you refrain from such additions to Wikipedia articles until you have a WP:RS reporting on Leeds clinching promotion - I'm sure that once this happens, there will be no lack of reporting. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I blocked him for his use of the word Yid which he clearly knew was in the context antisemitic, him not being a Tottenham fan. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Salomon Morel
Salomon Morel - thanks for your edits on the article. I have a few doubts though about the correctness of the information that you put. Looks like you are attempting to hide nationality of the Salomon Morel from the article. You are making great effort to hide the nationality of SM. Nationality is one thing and citizenship is the other. In Wikipedia article people are referred to by their nationality, not citizenships because you can have multiple citizenships. If you believe that I am wrong about nationality of SM do let me know. Wikipedia is not a battleground for political activist - hope we agree on that. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matcheeks (talk • contribs) 13:54, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- You seem to be conflating nationality and ethnicity - "Jewish" is generally not a nationality. Morel was a Polish national, he served in the security apparatus of the Polish state. His Jewish background (I'm not sure we have any sources stating he was a practicing Jew as an adult) is very clearly stated in the lead - version - second sentence -
"He later immigrated to Israel and acquired Israeli citizenship on account of his Jewish background"
. Icewhiz (talk) 14:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)- It does not matter whether he was a practising Jew or not. No background of a Holocaust victims is checked to prove that there were practising Jews. His name is not Polish and so isn't his surname. That's your first clue. He was only Polish by citizenship. Other than that what definition of Jew are you likely to accept? Because you are aware that the definition you have taken for Morel will deprive of Jewish nationality overwhelming majority of Holocaust victims. They will merely became Poles of Jewish background. Do you see a problem now? So, all in all, the challenge for you is to have a single consistent definition for Jews during WW2. Both when Jews were victims and when they were perpetrators committing genocide on Germans. Otherwise, with the definition of Jew that you are pushing here, Holocaust victims were Poles that merely were of "Jewish background". That's the core issue here. So, you may have more experience in Wikipedia but you can't change the truth which ultimately is the highest value for editors. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matcheeks (talk • contribs) 14:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- He chose to live and serve in the Polish People's Republic. He rose to the rank of colonel I believe, and received a number of decorations. Do inform me, what is the truth here? Icewhiz (talk) 14:34, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- It does not matter whether he was a practising Jew or not. No background of a Holocaust victims is checked to prove that there were practising Jews. His name is not Polish and so isn't his surname. That's your first clue. He was only Polish by citizenship. Other than that what definition of Jew are you likely to accept? Because you are aware that the definition you have taken for Morel will deprive of Jewish nationality overwhelming majority of Holocaust victims. They will merely became Poles of Jewish background. Do you see a problem now? So, all in all, the challenge for you is to have a single consistent definition for Jews during WW2. Both when Jews were victims and when they were perpetrators committing genocide on Germans. Otherwise, with the definition of Jew that you are pushing here, Holocaust victims were Poles that merely were of "Jewish background". That's the core issue here. So, you may have more experience in Wikipedia but you can't change the truth which ultimately is the highest value for editors. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matcheeks (talk • contribs) 14:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
yeah but
It's Ok to create pages to right great social wrongs and serve an off-wiki agenda when the corporate culture tends to favor that agenda. Which only fuels the fury of our critics who claim our encyclopedic neutrality only matters if we are opposing an off-wiki social agenda not in keeping with corporate culture. She isn't bloody notable. Thanks for taking the heat on this. DlohCierekim 17:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the kind words. I'll note that my "deletion nomination threshold" for women in STEM (and all the more so for African-American women in STEM) is higher than what I apply for men - not because I think this should be the case (I personally don't !vote that way - I'm color/gender blind in my !voting) - but because I recognize that borderline cases are more likely to be kept at AfD (if on the right side of the RGW divide). In this particular case - it simply wasn't close to any standard of notability. I also, personally, think that creating pages for non-notable people on the right side of the RGW divide is harmful RGW-wise - as instead of showcasing very accomplished individuals - we end up with RGW-wrong people appearing (due to deletion thresholds) more accomplished than RGW-right people. In this particular case, in my opinion, increasing quantity (e.g. shooting for a higher percentage of X-class bios) over quality actually reinforces the stereotype one is aiming to counter via RGW.Icewhiz (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Just FYI
You were badmouthed here. Not sure what you wanna make of it -- I've called Andrew out, but I highly doubt he'll retract or apologize: I've never seen him back down or admit fault in such matters. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. Those pages really do not pass our notability threshold - I am all for women bios when they pass notability or even if they are a borderline GNG or PROF case - but not for bios very far from PROF and with a local news item + a smattering of PR from their employer (so not close to SIGCOV). I have had worse hurled at me (including on the now deleyed Pehlps' talk - not by Andrew) - I think I will let that just stand there.Icewhiz (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
AE
WP:AE#Icewhiz nableezy - 17:22, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Hang in there!
Your contributions are valued, and I hope you don't let an abusive WP:AE report by an editor with an axe to grind rattle you. My bet is that administrators will see through the nonsense and nothing will come if it. I know there are probably a couple of instances where we have disagreed, but I've been impressed with your thoughtfulness and sincerity and think you're without question someone who makes this project better. Hang in there! Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Really important to be Neutral about Israel-Palestine Issues particularly re groups like Otzma Yehudit
I am concerned that Avaya1 editing regarding Otzma Yehudit and incidents related to it is not in keeping with our commitment to WP:NPV and would welcome your advice. I have seen several examples of this in Avaya1's work across multiple pages, but I will highlight just one page. This is the version of a page Avaya1 created for May Golan who ran for the knesset on the Otzma Yehudit ticket (note this is not the current version of the page after editors such as myself worked on it, but it is the page Avaya1 created before anyone else edited it), I find the Avaya1 original version troubling for multiple reasons:
- Avaya1 describes her as conservative, whereas most neutral observers would describe someone running as part of Otzma Yehudit as being far right or even extreme far right (keep in mind American Israel Public Affairs Committee hardly a left wing group, has said they will not meet with anyone from Otzma Yehudit). I realize she recently switched to Likud, but Avay1 wrote this before the switch
- Avay1 doesn't mention that Otzma Yehudit is a party which is widely described as being racist and/or following Kahanism nor does Avaya1 link to the wiki article on Otzma Yehudit (it is is almost like Avay1 doesn't want English speakers to realize she was a fringe figure in a fringe far right party)
- Avaya1 adopts the (far) right wing framing of calling people illegal immigrants, while I am not saying this is wrong, a more NPV approach would have been to note that many Israelis (and many human rights organizations) claim these people are asylum seekers and make clear that is a disputed term
- The tone of the article does not feel in keeping with being an encyclopedia it use phrases such as "May Golan is a common guest on political panels on television channels in Israel. She has also been interviewed on international media organizations like the BBC Reuters, Fox News , I24News and RTI." This entire sentence was unsourced, and its main purpose seem to be positioning her as someone non-Israeli media should interview
- It repeatedly reference Hebrew City (seemingly implying it is important) , it seems like a small insignificant NGO
- Arguably she is notable for having made statements such as Africans learn to rape people it is their culture, she is proud to be called a racist and saying she won't eat in restaurant run by African because they are full of tuberculosis and AIDs - strangely Avaya1 does not emphasize any of these or similar statements.
- I am also concerned that the way this article was written it feels like the intent was to promote her career and legitimacy to non-Israeli media who might not be familiar with her actual situation in Israel
Also, when other editors have tried cleaning some of this up, someone (using anonymous IP editing) has been reverting or re-editing the page to try to minimize the Kahanist / extremist connections.
I find the above troubling, and it appears to me Avaya1 has done similar non-NPV editing on multiple occasions - any suggestions? NYC.Geek (talk) 15:31, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- @NYC.Geek: - May Golan got elected for Likud (well - based on the non-final results, but she's at 33 - so fairly safe at this point). She did run on "Otzma LeYisrael" in 2013 which is not quite the same party (though it did have some common people) - she was 10th on the slate (a slot which had no chance of getting in - they didn't get pass the electoral thereshold). Icewhiz (talk) 15:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding Hebrew City - while yes, generally it would be unimportant in other contexts, Golan founded it (to run in the Tel-Aviv elections) - so it is relevant to Golan's bio (as it is relevant to Golan's activities - she identified as Hebrew City head for a few years afterwards - e.g. see JPost in 2016). It. The page in general is an un-referenced mess - which should not be the state for a BLP. It definitely could use improvement in terms of referencing. Icewhiz (talk) 16:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Steven Strauss again
NYC.Geek appears to be trying to delete all the article I've created, as part of his anti-Israel anger. Is this a form of wikistalking? He has applied COI tags to celebrities like Tanya Pylavets and seems to want to delete an article about Dorit Revelis.Avaya1 (talk) 10:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
If we look at his editing, he appears to be using sockpuppet's again? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dorit_Revelis&action=history
Is there a way to initiate a sockpuppet investigation? Avaya1 (talk) 10:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, that does not sound nice. See WP:SPI for how to file a sockpuppetry report - but you need strong evidence, not just a suspicion. How did this kerfuffle start? Strauss? If Strauss was the main issue, then given it was deleted then perhaps it is best to step back and make peace?Icewhiz (talk) 11:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, you were following all this. First of all I added the COI tag to the Strauss article, and removed the non-notable content and added a quote from him about Israel. Then I discussed it with you, and the *apparent* (suspected/alleged) sockpuppet of Strauss (User:I.new.around.here) came to your page. Then you discussed this on the articles for deletion page of Strauss's article. And now the user who has been suspected of being Strauss has started attacking Israel-related articles I created. For example, he has added a Conflict of Interest tag to Tanya Pylavets. Her notability is indeed questionable and she could be deleted, although at the time of article creation she had seemed notable in Israeli media (so the article was just made prospectively at the time). But adding Conflict of Interest to a one-time locally famous model's article, was strange. In the case of the Dorit Revelis article, it seems he has deleted a lot of content that was in the sources need quotation to verify to everything he can't understand because it is from Hebrew mainstream sources. Her article does need to be improved, but deleting half of it, and using sockpuppets, because of anger that my edits resulted in the deletion of the page he wrote about himself, is surely some form of rule breaking? Avaya1 (talk) 11:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- In terms of going after articles you wrote - (WP:HOUNDING) you have evidence. I would suggest you ask them to stop, if you haven't asked yet. In terms of socking - I heard your suspicion - and while you may be right - I haven't seen (or understood yet) clear evidence. An intersection between a suspected sockmaster and sockpuppet on a single article (Strauss) is not strong evidence. You need evidence they intersect more or behave the same (not just same POV, but same manners, etc.).Icewhiz (talk) 11:28, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, you were following all this. First of all I added the COI tag to the Strauss article, and removed the non-notable content and added a quote from him about Israel. Then I discussed it with you, and the *apparent* (suspected/alleged) sockpuppet of Strauss (User:I.new.around.here) came to your page. Then you discussed this on the articles for deletion page of Strauss's article. And now the user who has been suspected of being Strauss has started attacking Israel-related articles I created. For example, he has added a Conflict of Interest tag to Tanya Pylavets. Her notability is indeed questionable and she could be deleted, although at the time of article creation she had seemed notable in Israeli media (so the article was just made prospectively at the time). But adding Conflict of Interest to a one-time locally famous model's article, was strange. In the case of the Dorit Revelis article, it seems he has deleted a lot of content that was in the sources need quotation to verify to everything he can't understand because it is from Hebrew mainstream sources. Her article does need to be improved, but deleting half of it, and using sockpuppets, because of anger that my edits resulted in the deletion of the page he wrote about himself, is surely some form of rule breaking? Avaya1 (talk) 11:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- And there's another sockpuppet of his [14], who is editing only the Israel articles I have created. Can you help with this? There are completely the same manners and behaviours, as well as the same behaviour on the same articles. You yourself discussed one of his sockpuppets on this talkpage and his writing style and points were identical as Strauss', as you know (you were talking to him). User:I.new.around.here was created entirely to argue for Strauss, using identical behaviour as NYC Geek. Avaya1 (talk) 11:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, because the Strauss article has been deleted, much of the evidence has been lost. Is there a way to access the edits in the Strauss article, as this is where so much of the evidence is? (This is why I argued against deleting the article, until the COI issue was resolved. But for some reason it was not resolved). Avaya1 (talk) 11:39, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- And another apparent sockpuppet [15], although this time unrelated to my edits or to Israel. He seems to be using Wikipedia to pursue personal agendas. Avaya1 (talk) 11:47, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
{od}} Admins at SPI can look at deleted evidence, yes. I suggest you:
- Clearly ask them to stop.
- Avoid using "sockpupet" absent evidence.
- Compile clear evidence of which accounts you suspect are socks - abd why - with diffs. You may find Wikipedia:Editor Interaction Analyzer useful.
Icewhiz (talk) 11:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- So there are multiple complaints I should prepare :
- 1. Conflict of Interest with User:NYC.Geek and Steven Strauss. Hopefully evidence will be retrievable from the article (this is why I asked not to vote for its deletion, and why it was absurd that User:NYC.Geek was able to vote to delete his own article.) Most of the evidence needed is contained in that now deleted article. So we will need to ask the admins to retrieve the evidence and user data?
- 2. Use of alleged sockpuppets: User:I.new.around.here, User:Shiva.TheDeleter, User:Bene.Nota - the former two, including in bad faith to argue about Conflict of Interest. The alleged use of IP accounts as well for the same purpose. .
- 3. After I raised the Conflict of Interest on his article, he started WP:HOUNDING behaviour - attempting to remove content or wanting to delete exactly and only all articles I've created in relation to Israel, and using the same above alleged sockpuppets for this.
- 4. Apparent pursuit of editing against people who have a connection to Steven Strauss in real life (I guess this might be outside our remit or that of Wikipedia administrators?).
- The only issue is I don't know how to launch these complaints and I'm extremely busy at work now. So, without any rush, I would ask for help in preparing these complaints? Or to be directed to someone who could help. It does not have to be immediate, but if and when you have time. Thanks!Avaya1 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Single complaint. Ask them to stop following you - if they continue, then you can complain. I would focus on SPI - but you need good evidence - I will take a look (probably on Sunday).Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks - I'll be free on Sunday as well. I've never seen anyone break so many different Wikipedia rules before. He apparently created his own article as self-promotion, then created new sockpuppets to edit war (with the identical writing style) the article when self-promoting material was removed and despite being informed about the COI policy. Then he used his old account to argue for the deletion of the article, which has removed the evidence before we could resolve the COI problem. Afterwards he started trying to delete or remove half of the content of the Israel related articles I created years ago, in a way which cannot be explained except as an attempt at "revenge" - otherwise, why is he suddenly doing this only to articles I have created (or it is part of his idea of "revenge" against Israel - for example, he uses two of his apparent sockpuppets for POV edits on the May Golan article which I had created). He apparently seems to have opened more sockpuppet accounts for the purpose. And finally, he appears to also use his original account and the new sockpuppets to edit against articles of people who have a connection (same workplaces) as Steven Strauss in real life. Avaya1 (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Avaya1: - if you haven't seen, then Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NYC.Geek seems to resolve this for now. However, this doesn't always end with a single case. If you have additional trouble I'm willing to help. Icewhiz (talk) 17:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi thanks so much. Sorry I was busy at work and missed all this. When I have more time in a couple of days, I will look into the case more. It's an unusual case, considering that Steven Strauss was using sockpuppets to fight the TOI issues in his article, and also that he uses seems to be editing negatively the articles of people who shared his place of work in real life. Should we revert the edits his accounts have made or just let them naturally be resolved? Avaya1 (talk) 16:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Avaya1: - if you haven't seen, then Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NYC.Geek seems to resolve this for now. However, this doesn't always end with a single case. If you have additional trouble I'm willing to help. Icewhiz (talk) 17:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks - I'll be free on Sunday as well. I've never seen anyone break so many different Wikipedia rules before. He apparently created his own article as self-promotion, then created new sockpuppets to edit war (with the identical writing style) the article when self-promoting material was removed and despite being informed about the COI policy. Then he used his old account to argue for the deletion of the article, which has removed the evidence before we could resolve the COI problem. Afterwards he started trying to delete or remove half of the content of the Israel related articles I created years ago, in a way which cannot be explained except as an attempt at "revenge" - otherwise, why is he suddenly doing this only to articles I have created (or it is part of his idea of "revenge" against Israel - for example, he uses two of his apparent sockpuppets for POV edits on the May Golan article which I had created). He apparently seems to have opened more sockpuppet accounts for the purpose. And finally, he appears to also use his original account and the new sockpuppets to edit against articles of people who have a connection (same workplaces) as Steven Strauss in real life. Avaya1 (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Single complaint. Ask them to stop following you - if they continue, then you can complain. I would focus on SPI - but you need good evidence - I will take a look (probably on Sunday).Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- The only issue is I don't know how to launch these complaints and I'm extremely busy at work now. So, without any rush, I would ask for help in preparing these complaints? Or to be directed to someone who could help. It does not have to be immediate, but if and when you have time. Thanks!Avaya1 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Who split from Otzma?
I thought it was just a renaming? ShimonChai (talk) 03:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Otzma Leyisrael was a combination of Hatikva and the people currently in Otzma - IDI, hewiki. See Hatikva (political party) which I think revolved around Aryeh Eldad. Some coverage in Hebrew - [16], [17]. The background here was the split of the National Union (itself a combination of multiple little parties) and most of it joining Mafdal. Here is Eldad speaking against Otzma running in 2014 (2015 elecctions) - [18]. Icewhiz (talk) 03:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Article Deletion Inquiry
Hi there,
My name is Jonathan Peizer and a colleague recently noticed a Wikipedia page that had been created about me some years back (Jonathan Peizer) was very recently deleted. I tried to use the TALK function for (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Spartaz) who had deleted the article to better understand the decision and speak to him about it but it appears he doesn't seem to accept TALK. I am unfamiliar with the wikipedia request for undelete process, but understand I need to talk to the editor involved in the deletion before doing anything. I noticed that there was limited discussion around it but you were one of the folks who weighed in so I have decided to reach out to you and inquire if an appeal is worthwhile.
My impression was a major issue was the issue of references to me.... While I am unsure this will change the decision I'd like to refer to a number of missing references on the Wiki page and Subject inclusion in the following journals, books, articles and interviews. Some are focused on Subject, some written by Subject and some referencing Subject. For better or worse I created one of the first targeted, strategic programs to employ Internet for social development through philanthropy in the mid-90's while at the Open Society Institute:
1) Wired June 1998 pg 106 Netizen Section - Sysop for Soros by Ben Green
2) in MIT presses Uncanny Networks below: -The MIT Press, A Leonardo Book March 2003 ISBN 0-262-12251-0 7 x 9, 392 pp.-
The interviews collected in this book are with artists, critics, and theorists who are intimately involved in building the content, interfaces, and architectures of new media. The topics discussed include digital aesthetics, sound art, navigating deep audio space, European media philosophy, the Internet in Eastern Europe, the mixing of old and new in India, critical media studies in the Asia-Pacific region, Japanese techno tribes, hybrid identities, the storage of social movements, theory of the virtual class, virtual and urban spaces, corporate takeover of the Internet, and the role of cyberspace in the rise of nongovernmental organizations.
Interviewees included Norbert Bolz, Paulina Borsook, Luchezar Boyadjiev, Kuan-Hsing Chen, Mike Davis, Mark Dery, Kodwo Eshun, Susan George, Boris Groys, Frank Hartmann, Michael Heim, Dietmar Kamper, Zina Kaye, Tom Keenan, Arthur Kroker, Bruno Latour, Marita Liulia, Rafael Lozano-Hemmer, Peter Lunenfeld, Lev Manovich, Mongrel, Edi Muka, Jonathan Peizer, Saskia Sassen, Herbert Schiller, Gayatri Spivak, Ravi Sundaram, Toshiya Ueno, Tjebbe van Tijen, McKenzie Wark, Hartmut Winkler, and Slavoj Zizek.
3) And related First Monday Interview: https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/651/566
4) Information Technologies and International Development Journal Vol 1. No.2, Pg 81 Winter 2003 MIT Press Cross-Sector Information and Communications Technology Funding for Development, What Works, What Does Not and Why - Jonathan Peizer
5) Reference in Dynamics of Critical Internet Culture: (1994-2001), https://books.google.com/books?id=2IFanhsEJGwC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=jonathan+peizer&source=bl&ots=DomEKdaMOB&sig=ACfU3U2yO2l7wVl32Skqie01Ykl5vrGs-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs4-Ko-t_hAhXwm-AKHbS_A-k4HhDoATAJegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=jonathan%20peizer&f=false
6) Dark Fiber: Tracking Critical Internet Culture https://books.google.com/books?id=p_7YWf9WpwYC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=jonathan+peizer&source=bl&ots=qlcyJ3aD4T&sig=ACfU3U2M54jYHFj_JZzSOPcBJoGP1ppVEg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs4-Ko-t_hAhXwm-AKHbS_A-k4HhDoATAIegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=jonathan%20peizer&f=false
7) Culture and Technology in the New Europe: Civic Discourse in Transformation ... https://books.google.com/books?id=eFdlhkcY-9MC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=jonathan+peizer+wired&source=bl&ots=hrCjCwFUYY&sig=ACfU3U11ycz_q6_86yNd83aTf8m_FeWWyg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY8uiz_N_hAhXnYN8KHdLPDpQQ6AEwDHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=jonathan%20peizer%20wired&f=false
8) Chronicle of philanthropy: https://www.philanthropy.com/article/What-Grant-Seekers-Should-Know/174201?cid=cpfd_home referring to my manual
9) Chronicle of philanthropy: New Book Explores Role of Internet in Social Change https://www.philanthropy.com/article/New-Book-Explores-Role-of/172427 (referring to my book the Dynamics of Technology for Social Change)
11) Chronicle of Philanthropy April 18th, 1996 Foundation's Electronic Frontier Pg. 33 (Story Photo of me)
12) Fast Company https://www.fastcompany.com/33293/my-favorite-bookmarks-jonathan-peizer
13) Wired Truth Commissioner: https://www.wired.com/1998/06/netizen-19/
14) Connectivity and beyond. Internet and the political democratisation in the less developed countries. Reference page 14: http://www.irfd.org/events/wf2003/vc/papers/papers_global/R31.pdf
Thank you for your time
Jpeizer (talk) 01:40, 21 April 2019 (UTC) April 20, 2019 Jonathan Peizer
- The discussion is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonathan Peizer (2nd nomination) - I did not weigh in, I merely deletion sorted it (placing the discussion in Authors and New-York). I don't recall the article and am unable to look at deleted articles. It seems the article was deleted due to WP:PROMO / Wikipedia:Autobiography concerns and not just sourcing (which was not great). Generally - interviews with the subject of an article do not count towards notability. The sources you list above, from a cursory examination, do not establish Wikipedia notability. I would suggest you compile a list of 4-6 WP:INDEPENDENT, WP:SECONDARY, in-depth sources about your self (so - not passing mentions, not interviews - several paragraphs, or better several pages, written about you without an interview of yourself) - source quality and depth is more important than quantity. You should probably discuss this with @Ohnoitsjamie:, and @E.M.Gregory:.Icewhiz (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: @E.M.Gregory: Thanks for your initial reply, How would I speak with the person that actually deleted the article @E.M.Spartaz:? Or what is the process of posting an appeal? Regarding your stated concern, I didn't post the article, however I did a few edits after the fact because whoever did post it had some inaccuracies about my background. Related to sources you recommend above I'd refer you to a number of additional references:
1) https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Jonathan_Peizer 2) https://www.alliancemagazine.org/book-review/the-dynamics-of-technology-for-social-change-jonathan-peizer/ 3) https://fcw.com/articles/2006/07/24/welles-the-dynamics-of-technology.aspx 4) http://moussemagazine.it/influencing-machine-galeria-nicodim-bucharest/ (See references Jonathan Peizer) 5) https://aspirationtech.org/about/board 6) https://www.philanthropy.com/article/What-Grant-Seekers-Should-Know/174201 (Includes background) 7) Morino Institute From Access to Outcomes, Digital Divide Report http://www.morino.org/divides/participants.htm 8) Uncanny Networks The MIT Press, A Leonardo Book March 2003 ISBN 0-262-12251-0 7 x 9, 392 pp.- (Description of Jonathan Peizer Background on page 144 prior to the Chapter Interviewing me) 9) First Monday Interview: https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/651/566 (Includes background) 10) https://everything.explained.today/Jonathan_Peizer/ 11) https://socialsourcecommons.org/appreciations 12) Innovation Network http://www.pointk.org/client_docs/File/TAC_Bios.pdf 13) https://dpya.org/wiki/index.php/1997_-_Open_Internet_Policy_Principles_-_Group_of_International_Experts
Jpeizer (talk) 09:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC) April 21, 2019 Jonathan Peizer
- Well - you could try speaking with Spartaz if you want to appeal - however it probably won't be accepted. We generally are quite suspicious of people trying to create (directly or indirectly) biographies of themselves or articles on their companies/products. Your best bet is probably convincing a Wikipedia editor that you are notable (based on sources) and interesting - in the hopes of them writing an article. However - it is highly unlikely you will convince me.Icewhiz (talk) 09:53, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: Spartaz doesn't seem to have his talk activated so would you be kind enough to explain the procedure for officially appealing deletion of a page originally put up by someone else but referring to myself? The company posting issue I assume you are referencing did relate to my postings. They occurred over a dozen years ago, and are a totally separate issue. Once upon a time when Wikipedia was young and in need of content it welcomed it from a broader array of sources. After contributing to the Japanese green tea section for years without issue and referencing the information portion of my site dedicated to that, my references began being rejected because the rules had changed and sites deemed commercial because they also sold product were no longer kosher -- or at least some of them. The rules were unfortunately not applied uniformly and I took issue with that at the time.
- Spartaz's talk page works for me (and it doesn't seem protected) - try again over there. You could try Wikipedia:Deletion review - however looking at the discussion the chances are very slim to null (both at Spartaz and at Deletion Review). You haven't convinced me that you pass current Wikipedia notability guidelines - your best bet would be to convince an interested editor (not me!) that your bio is both interesting and notable (by dint of reviews of your book(s), profiles of you by reputable sources that aren't interviews and/or written by you). Another option would be to create a bio yourself (or via interested party) and submitted at Wikipedia:Article creation (while clearly stating the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest). The deletion itself seems to have been done properly - I don't think you'll be able to get that overturned. If notability can be established based on new sources and the text is neutral - a recreated article might be possible.Icewhiz (talk) 10:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Discussion on WP:DR
There is a discussion here on WP:DR to which you have been named as an involved person. Please check it out.Davidbena (talk) 04:02, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Barnstar of Diplomacy | |
Thank you for your help mediating at the MEK page. Without your help, we would just be stuck in the mud there. You're a great Wiki editor, and one of the few that has ventured to get involved there, and that has been appreciated all along Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC) |
DYK for Holden's Lightning flight
On 23 April 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Holden's Lightning flight, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that an engineer inadvertently took off in an English Electric Lightning fighter jet after engaging the afterburner by mistake? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Holden's Lightning flight. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Holden's Lightning flight), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
— Maile (talk) 00:02, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Holden
Thanks for giving us Holden: I haven't laughed reading an article for a while, even though the guy must have been terrified while it happened. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:03, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- Holden has called this a fright in lieu of flight (If I were cute I could've called it Holden's fright - but I thought that would be a tad too cute and not encyclopedic). You can hear him talking about it in this BBC interview (on YouTube). Seems the throttle on the Lightening was not quite designed with "start-stop" in mind - the designers probably thought that if you pushed the throttle all the way - you meant to go-go-go. :-). Icewhiz (talk) 06:15, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Moskal
Moskal was not a paragon of virtues, and his bio is a good place for RS criticism. But we should not add irrelevant criticism to other pages. Criticism of Moskal belongs on his bio, not in his workplace. Just like criticism of Trump belongs in Trump's article, not that of the US, US presidency, or White House. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:15, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- Moskal was the face of the organization for 20 years. Both sources refer to PAC and Moskal - not just Moskal. We prefer coverage of a topic in a manner covered in independent, secondary, well regard sources - as opposed to coverage in an organization's (accused itself of rather bigoted behaviour) self-published newsletter. Icewhiz (talk) 12:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- "Edward Moskal, the notoriously anti-Semitic chairman of the American Polish Congreess (Kongres Polonii Amerykanskiej, KPA), is a highly regard figure in far right circles".[1] Similar quip elsehwere.[2] When covering extremist figures and organizations use of reputable independent sourcing is key. The two cited sources - the organization itself[3] and "THE NEWSLETTER OF THE SOCIETY OF ST. JOHN CANTIUS"[4] - are clearly inappropriate for an organization of this character. Icewhiz (talk) 12:25, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Racist Extremism in Central and Eastern Europe, Routledge, Cas Mudde, page 156
- ^ The Populist Radical Right in Poland: The Patriots, Rafal Pankowski, page 96
- ^ "MILESTONES IN THE STORY OF THE POLISH AMERICAN CONGRESS: The First Fifty Years Part 2: 1981 - 1994". Archived from the original on 2009-05-23. Retrieved February 2009.
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- (edit conflict) I suggest discussing this on article's talk page, where you can present the quotes and how they are about PAC, and not just Moskal. Please keep in mind that if the sources say something like "Moskal, president of PAC, made an antisemitic remark", it's a criticism of him, not PAC. Just like a source saying "Trump, president of USA, made such and such comment" is about Trump, not USA. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
I just added ND there, I think there are many more media and factions that could be linked there. I am sure you may have some suggestions. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:21, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- Radio Maryja obviously - they are very closely linked (anything that applies to RM generally applies to ND and vice versa - which is how I got to looking into and sourcing ND actually). Probably a few smaller ones as well (though one needs to be careful (sourced based) - some groups adhere to philosophy that harks back to elements even farther to the right of ND). Icewhiz (talk) 05:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Breaking the Stalemate: The Case for Engaging the Iranian Opposition
Hello. Wondering if the book is considered reliable source for this edit. I mean the book is clearly written with specific purposes in mind, i.e. overthrowing a regime. Do you find it neutral/reliable enough for inclusion?--Kazemita1 (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- I am unsure of the publisher and author - I need to look into it. However the source is being used in an attributed manner (according to...) - so this is less of a RS question and more NPOV / DUE.Icewhiz (talk) 17:49, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- I would appreciate it if you do. Since, no one in the RS commented on it.--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:41, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- Will try to do it tomorrow (on a PC, am on mobile now - not great for real editing)... I do not recognize the author/publisher so I need to read up. Feel free to poke me if I do not reply in a couple of days.Icewhiz (talk) 11:48, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- Replied on RSN. It is a shame RSN is dead for serious sourcing discussions (very lively whenever Fox or a US news source is discussed - but for academic sources - particularly in less traveled fields- it is very much "dead"). Icewhiz (talk) 06:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I would appreciate it if you do. Since, no one in the RS commented on it.--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:41, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Accusations of Anti-Semitism as an ideology of Hezbollah from some very POV pro-Israel editors regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. :) -- =*= XHCN Quang Minh =*= (talk) 04:30, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Requesting Clarice Phelps article
Hello, you had nominated the article Clarice Phelps for deletion. I read about this in a news article, and the deletion appears to have become controversial. Can you give me a copy of the article, so I can (1) see if their allegation(s) are true and (2) see if it can be salvaged with corrections / additional references. I had initially made the same request to User:TonyBallioni, who had closed the deletion discussion, and he redirected me to you. (The link is here.) It would be great if either you or TonyBalloni could userfy this article, so that all Wikipedians can verify this for themselves. I understand that you might be concerned about people repeatedly recreating this article, but I believe you can Speedy delete those if it happens. Thank You. --Jose Mathew (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Generally the nominator doesn't have a copy - however I have a few copies stashed away - e-mailing you separately. Also note it is now on draft on Wikipedia. Icewhiz (talk) 10:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Bounced an e-mail your way - a version from towards the end the (first) AfD, version prior to nomming, and version in September 2018. The latter two have serious factual issues, the former fails GNG/NPROF but is probably mostly OK factually. Icewhiz (talk) 10:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot. Sorry to disturb you again, but can you direct me to the draft? I understand that you might have been unfairly criticized and am deeply sorry if I am causing you further trouble. --Jose Mathew (talk) 11:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Icewhiz symhatises with German Nazis.Xx236 (talk) 11:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)