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Hiberniantears (talk | contribs) →Request for assistance: and some more data, and food for thought... |
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:Likewise, the following is of note: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.38.178.213] [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] 16:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC) |
:Likewise, the following is of note: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.38.178.213] [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] 16:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC) |
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Hi again Fut. Per., |
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I think [[User:Patrick Sanders]] is definetly Shup, and I think he was editing today alternating between that user name, and then anonymously as [[User:151.37.178.16]] to create some plausible deniability. He's making tons of edits to a large number of articles; some edits are good, some are bad, and some are simply an effort to instigate problems. With the large number of user names and IP's which he is employing, I think it makes it very hard for anyone but those few of us who are familiar with the issue from working constructively on any of the articles in question. Even still, I'm keeping my distance from a large number of articles which I would like to work on right now because I can't tell which users are actual individuals, and which ones may/may not be Shup. Because he drops positive and negative contributions using alternating accounts, I think it is clear that he is trying to systematically obfuscate the edit history of all these articles so that it is nearly impossible for anyone else to meaningfully contribute. I'm giving him the room to operate freely for the time being for two reasons: First, I can't tell who's a new editor, and who is Shup. Second, I don't want to get in an edit war with him, and he makes so many changes that it is nearly impossible to make a simple change without him jumping on it. I know this is extreme, but what are your thoughts on an IP range block for a short period of time (24 hours)? I think this will at least let us get an idea of a more stable version of some articles before he jumps back in after the block expires (even though it will probably block a large section of Italy). I am interested in knowing your thoughts on this. Thanks! [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] 17:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC) |
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==Votespamming== |
==Votespamming== |
Revision as of 17:45, 27 September 2007
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talk page archived, with some responses to recent threads. If you have to continue, please start a new thread here. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Neutral tone
I must admit that your version is nearest to the neutral point. But can I ask (before making changes to replace "Slavic ethnic group and the language within Yugoslavia" with "ethnic Macedonians group and their language within Yugoslavia"? And also as we can some pages it is stated that the most southern part of Yugoslavia is Macedonia, and in others that the Socialist republic of yugoslavia is Macedonia. So, according to me this will be the best solution:
Some authors from the Republic of Macedonia have pointed out in support of their position that Greek authorities themselves, prior to the 1990s, used the name Macedonia to refer to the then Yugoslavian Socialist Republic of Macedonia, implying that the later rejection was artificial and politically motivated. They quote Greek geography school books from the 1980s that use the term with reference to southern Yugoslavia or Socialist Republic of Macedonia and also include the terms Macedonians and Macedonian for the ethnic Macedonian group and their language within Yugoslavia.
With respect. Revizionist 11:10, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
- Go ahead, no problem. I was just trying to keep it short and less redundant. Whether those maps mean the political entity or just some vague geographical region is pretty irrelevant, isn't it. Common sense says that of course they mean the political entity, even though they aren't explicitly showing the boundary. In any case, you don't need to include the link to the SRoM twice in the same paragraph, nor the wikilink on the Republic of Macedonia (we usually link to the same target only once in an article.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I made the changes that you approved plus I excluded the second link to Socialist Republic of Macedonia as unnecessary. P.S. Sorry if am behaving non-ethical for asking, but could you tell me what is your native language (that is what is your background). Best regards, Revizionist 11:29, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hehe. I like the concept. Well I guess I can partially identify my self with a similar example ;) Cheers Revizionist 11:58, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Fut.Perf. ☼. There is this guy DL1977-2 that made some reverting without giving evidence nor facts. He even asked the name of the encyclopedia, and I gave it to him. I posted it here. After I posted it, ·ΚέκρωΨ· started saying that the encyclopedia is not a proof and so on. With ·ΚέκρωΨ· till now I'm having a civilized discussion (although I see he has be warned several times for vandalism on Albanian articles. Both of them have never written an article or some kind of a constructive text. Only edit wars. That is why I'm reporting to you (please excuse me if I'm being boring or pathetic, but I really hate this pressure), because the next time someone reverts your version I won't be avle to return it back - for I will brake the Three-Revert-Rule. Thanks in advance. With respect. Revizionist 19:59, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sigh... welcome to Wikipedia's Macedonian pages... I recommend to take it easy for the moment, don't let yourself be drawn into a revert war now. (You know the 3RR, right? Oh yes, sure, because I blocked you the other day... :-P) These debates can be pig-headed. Kekrops is a long-time contributor, very clever and knowledgeable, but he can be a real tough nut in such a dispute. The other guy is probably not really new either. I wonder what kind of misplaced footwear he is. Will find it out, don't worry. :) But in any case, your position with respect to those sources is not particularly strong, it's not as if it was some high-class historical scholarship you were quoting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Fute, I'm sure you can appreciate that this tough nut cannot accept Dionysia Weissman's γιὰ σᾶς, παιδιά by "εκδοσεις αυλος" as an official "Greek school book". Those are published by the Οργανισμός Εκδόσεων Διδακτικών Βιβλίων, which is overseen by the Ministry of Education. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 18:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I never presented the encyclopedia "γιὰ σᾶς, παιδιά" as a "Greek school book". I said "...in Greek textbooks and encyclopedia" (which is different from what you said).
- Actually Fut.Perf. ☼, for the time being mediation is not necessary. This ·ΚέκρωΨ· turned out to be a reasonable guy. Unlike other who just vandalize articles and engage in edit wars, ·ΚέκρωΨ· gave evidence about the encyclopedia, and we reached a mutual compromise. We stated that the Encyclopedia is privately published, and the Geography textbook is state published. Yes, I am new in Wikipedia and the Macedonia related articles, but I'm happy that all this time I manage to use a calm academic tone (like you guys), and I hope we will become friends. Για σας, και καληνηχτα. Revizionist 21:08, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
- Довидување и добра ноќ. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Request.
You're good at Macedonia related stuff....please take a look at this discussion here regarding the PD-RoM template. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for going through the template and orphaning out the stuff that didn't apply. My fingers would have gotten tired. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 20:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for the response! It was exactly what I needed. Shup's back at IP 151.44.156.78 tonight, but seems to be behaving himself. Once again, I appreciate all that you're doing (overall! You seem to have you hands full lately...). Hiberniantears 02:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for erasing Frightner's comment on my talk page. I appreciate it. I don't like provocation. His statement was not argument, because he didn't read your comment offering help to revise the template. With the help of the admits I will make a new template for connected with Article 31 of the "Law on Copyright and Related Rights" of the Republic of Macedonia. Cheers Revizionist 12:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks, but I don't think that's a good idea. What that Article 31 says is about country-specific conditions on what we here call non-free content / "fair use". It's a very thorny topic, and we have a hard time already reaching a consensus about what the American rules on fair use mean for us. I don't think additional information about the MKD-specific rules would clarify things any further - the American rules is what ultimately counts here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Wikipedia is ultimately governed by American law. While occasionally we have templates regarding PD in other countries (Germany and UK come to mind) their laws are written such that the templates work as well under American law. Macedonia law does not work the same way. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, for the record, I don't really see that many differences between the Macedonian and the German case. As far as I can see, the laws are quite similar in scope, structure and content. And the condition described in {{PD-Germany}} is very much of the same kind as those I put on the Macedonian one. But we shouldn't have country-specific fair use tags, they don't make a lot of sense. (Don't know how and if those fair-use-related articles of the law would be applicable in America at all, probably not.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Wikipedia is ultimately governed by American law. While occasionally we have templates regarding PD in other countries (Germany and UK come to mind) their laws are written such that the templates work as well under American law. Macedonia law does not work the same way. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks, but I don't think that's a good idea. What that Article 31 says is about country-specific conditions on what we here call non-free content / "fair use". It's a very thorny topic, and we have a hard time already reaching a consensus about what the American rules on fair use mean for us. I don't think additional information about the MKD-specific rules would clarify things any further - the American rules is what ultimately counts here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
An Arbitration case on which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Liancourt Rocks. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Liancourt Rocks/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Liancourt Rocks/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad 20:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding edits on Atanas Badev, this has been edit warring there for the past four months. He reverts away from compromise version by myself, Laveol and Capricornis. Also he is editing through sockpuppets: this ip adds a picture just uploaded by Strich3d. Same thing a couple of days ago he uploads this image, and then anon user inserts it here. Also he seems to be erasing the notice for lack of licence information. Mr. Neutron 20:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, seems like Fut.Perf. has been indeed appointed as THE admin for all the macedonian-bulgarian disputes :) As for the image of Solun I made it clear on the talk page of the portal that such uploads are undesirable and not helpful, there is no need to bring that up over and over. As for the warring, I will look into it and try to talk sense to the warring parties, since as I mentioned on the talk page, this is the first time I ever hear about this Badev guy :) Capricornis 21:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, need help
What to I have to do to change the result of this? Just read the rationale on the votes and the first paragraph of Koine Greek (if you don't already know it) to see how important that third era is. For the record, the voters urge me to list myself in grc (Ancient Greek), which is much further than what I can confidently and easily understand. Koine is the predecessor of demotic, and I'm very glad I don't miss a iota in the original text of the New Testament. I couldn't say the same for Plato or -worse- Homer though... If the ISO of "ke" is the problem, then let's just fix it. NikoSilver 23:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, I see your point. It's a bit awkward now, process-wise, because although "Consensus Can Change" there isn't really a standard process for overturning this kind of deletion debate - DRV is only for procedural issues about contested closures, not for a new content appraisal, and if you just recreate the category it would be subject to a speedy. I guess we should at least contact the deletion nominator and the person who closed it, to see if there are objections. Lemme see. Don't think it would be hugely controversial, really. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your actions. I'd have contacted them myself, but I wanted to make sure there's no standard procedure for undeletion in the first place.
- The last text I read in Koine was the Revelation of John (here). I found it very interesting that it was 100% comprehensible for me. Mind you, I was one of the worst students in Ancient Greek at school! I also went to Patmos this year and saw his cave. It is amazing how our language has changed so little in over 2 millenia! It's also amazing how it changed so much in just 300-500 years (since Pericles for example). What do the linguists say? How can a language speed up its evolution over a short period of time and then pause to rest for almost eternity? NikoSilver 08:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Normally, I reply to posts on my talk page, but seeing as how the thread here initiated that post, I'm going to respond here and hope that you will not mind. First of all, let me say thank you for coming to me to discuss the matter. I want to be clear that I want to do what is best for the project, and that I have no feelings that my decision is set in stone or not otherwise subject to change. I believe that you have made a very good case for a distinct category to exist. As far as I can tell there is no ISO code which applies here. I would suggest that perhaps Category:User koine be used, instead of "ke", since that will prevent any potential issues that people sometimes have with 2 or 3 character codes. Also, I would ask you to consider if you need the "levels" (-1, -2, etc.) of child categories, or if you just need one primary one for everyone. I think that I will have no objection with whatever you decide, and only would ask that you link to this discussion when you do create the category(ies) so that people will understand why. My final thought would be that if you are looking for any other opinions (who all know more than I) User:jc37, User:Black Falcon and User:Horologium have all been active in this series of discussions. --After Midnight 0001 00:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Just some chat about linguistics
- Hah! Gotcha too. Now you do owe me a Tobermory. I followed your link to the Revelation text and wondered: wow, I didn't know Koiné was that modern either! Future tense forms with thélo! Reduction of ina > na! Then I got suspcicious and checked my printed New Testament. What you got on the web there isn't the original, it's a Katharevousa adaption. Unbelievable, isn't it? If they are going to use not the original but a modern translation, why don't they go straight for standard demotic? (Perhaps that illusion of continuity is just what they want to achieve?)
- Anyway, your observation may still be correct. There are two factors. First, many people believe that sudden language contact speeds up change, especially language shift. Between classical and koine, you had all those foreign non-native speakers to assimilate, such as speakers of
Macedoniansorry, couldn't resist...;-) Illyrian, Thracian, Lycian, Luwian, Aramaic, Egyptian etc. Not to mention the Paxiotes. Second, on the other side, don't forget that much of the recognisability for a modern speaker may be owing to the "artificial" preservation of language features through the ecclesiastic register and later through Katharevousa. If you were a speaker of pure traditional demotic, living outside the cultural sphere of the orthodox church or the Greek state, you'd probably find the Revelation just as baffling as a modern English speaker finds this:- Her hæþne men ærest on Sceapige ofer winter sætun. 7 þy ilcan geare gebocude Æþelwulf cyning teoþan dæl his londes ofer al his rice Gode to lofe 7 him selfum to ecere hælo, 7 þy ilcan geare ferde to Rome mid micelre weorþnesse 7 þær was .xii. monaþ wuniende 7 þa him hamweard fór, 7 him þa Carl Francna cyning his dohtor geaf him to cuene, 7 æfter þam to his leodum cuom 7 hie þæs gefægene wærun. ([3])
- About a radical view of how languages can suddenly change speed of change, see punctuated equilibrium (let's see if this turns up blue? Ah, it does, but the article deals only with biology. There's a guy called Dixon, specialist in Australian Aboriginal languages, who applies the concept to language development too.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Bre Fut, I read the Revelation from my Bible too, sorry for the wrong (just discovered) link. Well, you have a point, I should have immediately spotted the difference in ease of comprehension. Truth is, I can't immediately classify the Greek I read to a specific era. Anyway, how old is this English (?) text you quoted?
About the Katharevousa thing, you won't find me as criticizing as yourself. Personally, I believe that the utility of being able to have easier access to such huge amount of wisdom (be it the New Testament or Plato and Homer), deserves the "intervention", as long as this is not forced of course. So I agree to the end, but I criticize (just like you) the means. NikoSilver 10:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- You're right, the difference between the original Koine text and that adapted text is not very great - but it's actually quite revealing in many ways to see what they replace and what they don't. -- The English text is from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, entry for 855 AD, written probably around 900 AD. (Did you understand anything?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Zero. Does anybody? Isn't it a "pity" that this stuff is not taught or otherwise preserved a bit? I also note that all languages tend to become over-simplified. Declensions, tenses and vocabulary etc are becoming obsolete. In my view the language is the tool for the brain. To give you a parallel, it is another thing to run Visual Basic in your brain, and another to run e.g. COBOL. The only problem is that the computer languages evolve, while the human ones perish. Are we becoming dumber? NikoSilver 10:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let's see if you can work it out now:
Her hæþne men ærest | here heathen men erst |
on Sceapige ofer winter sætun. | on Shepey over winter sat |
7 þy ilcan geare | and the ilk year |
gebocude Æþelwulf cyning | booked Aethewolf king |
teoþan dæl his londes | tenth deal his land's |
ofer al his rice | over all his reich |
Gode to lofe 7 him selfum to ecere hælo, | God to love and himself to [eternal] heal |
This year the heathens spent the winter on Shepey for the first time; and in the same year King Aethelwulf registered the tenth part of his lands, across all his kingdom, for the love of God and for his own eternal salvation. It's completely opaque for the modern reader, but if you look more closely, you'll see that the only word that really hasn't survived into the modern language in some similar form at least is "ecer", 'eternal'.
As for dumbing language down, no we aren't. We are going through grammaticalisation cycles. We continually create new inflectional forms out of periphrastic constructions, then the inflections get eroded, then in parallel we start inventing new ones. There's no evidence that at any stage of the process the language is any more "complex" than in the other. It's like this:
- Pre-Latin: Present tense ama- 'love'. Future construction ama- + some auxiliary verb (hypothetical)
- Latin: auxiliare construction has developed into Future tense: amabo 'I will love'
- Late vulgar Latin: new auxiliary construction amare habeo 'I have to love', develops into a way of saying 'I will love'. Old amabo drops out of use.
- Early French: amare habeo has developed into aimer-ai 'I will love'
- Modern French: aimerai slowly starts dropping out of use; new periphrasis je vais aimer ('I'm going to love') develops.
And so on...
Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm partly relieved that your informed opinion is I'm not becoming more stupid than my ancestors. Problem is, I'm not so sure those "cycles" apply to Greek. It looks more of a "cliff" to me... NikoSilver 11:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW thanks for the lesson and for the example. Yes, it looks greatly familiar now. It reminds me of how dumb it is that we were taught the Odyssey at school with the poetic/demotic translation of [the otherwise magnificent] Kazantzakis right next to the ancient text, instead of some sort of Katharevousa-ized translation that would highlight those similarities... Maybe that is the reason Ancient Greek never got into me, as opposed to -say- Mathematics which had no such intensional logic dilemmas (to get back to our previous talk). NikoSilver 11:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Nah, Greek is doing fine with its cycling tours. Let's see: the textbook example of a grammaticalisation process similar to the amare habeo > aimerai thing is the Modern Greek tha (< thélei). That's not just one new grammatical category, it's three: a new future tense, a new conditional mood (tha to diávazes an eíxes óreksi), plus a new inferential mood (ídhi tha to katálaves). Plus there's a full new perfect system (éxo + -i). And, lemme see, what do we have here:
- to árthro todhiávasa
- ti selídha tidhiávasa
- ta vivlía tadhiávasa
- Don't mind the spelling. If this isn't a full new emergent system of object agreement, what is it? (You stole that one from your northern neighbours, or so I'm told. You should be grateful for this generous donation, and not grudge them if they steal a few other minor linguistic things from you in return).
- What's even more fascinating is that this object doubling thing, while it's not quite yet arrived at the stage of being a full-fledged agreement system, is currently serving yet other nice grammatical functions. Have you ever asked yourself what the contrast is between:
- To Níko ton blókaran gia ta revert tou
- To Níko blókaran gia ta revert tou
- There's a subtle difference in meaning, I'm told. Yet another new grammatical category you've invented a new way of expressing.
- So, not so bad after all. Don't worry. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, so it apparently is not a cliff; it's a yo-yo. The only problem that remains is that this yo-yo never stops on the same edge, and the aforementioned wisdom becomes increasingly incomprehensible to the many. But how can you explain this to the typical new expression inventor? It looks so small to create a new expression every now and then, yet it functions like a drop of water on the edge of the stalactite of discontinuity in wisdom transfer. It looks so cruel, that makes me certain the Epsilonists attribute it to some sort of organized conspiracy theory for de-Hellenization... Eínai na ta paírneis stin krána... NikoSilver 12:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah. Complaints about language change are probably about as old as language itself.
- Multa renascentur, quae iam cecidere, cadentque
quae nunc sunt in honore vocabula, si volet usus,
quem penes arbitrium est et ius et norma loquendi. - Trouble is, we don't "invent" these changes. Nobody brings them about intentionally. We "create" them, collectively, just as car drivers collectively create a traffic jam or just as buyers and sellers collectively create an inflation. It's an invisible hand phenomenon. So all complaining about it is moot. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, so it apparently is not a cliff; it's a yo-yo. The only problem that remains is that this yo-yo never stops on the same edge, and the aforementioned wisdom becomes increasingly incomprehensible to the many. But how can you explain this to the typical new expression inventor? It looks so small to create a new expression every now and then, yet it functions like a drop of water on the edge of the stalactite of discontinuity in wisdom transfer. It looks so cruel, that makes me certain the Epsilonists attribute it to some sort of organized conspiracy theory for de-Hellenization... Eínai na ta paírneis stin krána... NikoSilver 12:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Nah, Greek is doing fine with its cycling tours. Let's see: the textbook example of a grammaticalisation process similar to the amare habeo > aimerai thing is the Modern Greek tha (< thélei). That's not just one new grammatical category, it's three: a new future tense, a new conditional mood (tha to diávazes an eíxes óreksi), plus a new inferential mood (ídhi tha to katálaves). Plus there's a full new perfect system (éxo + -i). And, lemme see, what do we have here:
- Are you sure we stole clitic doubling from our northern neighbours? According to the sprachbund article, "southwest Macedonia appears to be the location of innovation". Well within the Greek sphere of influence, unless of course the author means the Republic. I also note that it is exceedingly common in Spanish, so the extent to which it is a true Balkanism is debatable: Los he leído los libros; le he dado los libros a ella. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- To tell you the truth, I'm not sure about the historical sequence. But according to Victor Friedman in a 2006 paper, Macedonian (and specifically its western dialects) is the language that has gone furthest with making clitic doubling obligatory, with northern Aromanian in a similar stage; followed by Albanian; with Greek and other Balkan languages having much less. The natural assumption would be that the language that has most of the phenomenon is the one that started it, though that's not a strict necessity of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Are you sure we stole clitic doubling from our northern neighbours? According to the sprachbund article, "southwest Macedonia appears to be the location of innovation". Well within the Greek sphere of influence, unless of course the author means the Republic. I also note that it is exceedingly common in Spanish, so the extent to which it is a true Balkanism is debatable: Los he leído los libros; le he dado los libros a ella. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah. The problem with Greek is that it is peripheral to the sprachbund at best, as the formative centres of the standard language at least, unlike those of neighbouring languages, were well away from the central Balkan areas where widespread linguistic contact took place. Given its relative geographic isolation, it could well be that Greek clitic doubling is a coincidence, like the Spanish or Persian cases, unrelated to the more salient Slavic or Albanian phenomenon. Will we ever know for sure? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- These things are fiendishly difficult to prove with certainty, notoriously so. In the Balkan case, the most important type of evidence is that all these languages together, with their sub-varieties, seem to form a common geographical pattern: the closer two varieties are to each other, the higher the likelihood that they follow the same rules. That implies that, at the very least, we have lots of parallel developments that are causally related at the edges somehow. The cherry on the cake, in this case, would be if it was shown that northern Greek dialects have again more doubling than the southern ones. Friedman doesn't say that; he just says that the educated standard in Greece has shown a tendency to resist clitic doubling. -- You are right, of course, that cltic doubling is in principle a structure that would have been independently available too. I'd say it's a universally available strategy once a language has certain structural preconditions (like object pronouns being routinely on the other side of the verb from full NP objects). Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah. The problem with Greek is that it is peripheral to the sprachbund at best, as the formative centres of the standard language at least, unlike those of neighbouring languages, were well away from the central Balkan areas where widespread linguistic contact took place. Given its relative geographic isolation, it could well be that Greek clitic doubling is a coincidence, like the Spanish or Persian cases, unrelated to the more salient Slavic or Albanian phenomenon. Will we ever know for sure? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'd say that it has less to do with education and more to do with register. It is almost ubiquitous in informal speech but avoided in formal language. I am also not entirely convinced that it is unrelated to the doubling of the definite article in the attributive position that goes all the way back to ancient Greek: ὁ καλὸς ἄνθρωπος, but also ὁ ἄνθρωπος ὁ καλός. It is not implausible that the clitic pronouns that replaced forms of αὐτός were adopted from and then confused with the identical corresponding definite article forms, hence providing fertile ground for the doubling of the latter to be extended to the former. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting indeed. It is obvious that the third-person clitic pronouns were simply copied wholesale from the corresponding definite articles. Is it unreasonable to expect that the former would carry on at least some of the baggage of the latter? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Me eksitároun óla aytá! Ooops! I just noticed there is an Anglo-Greek Sprachbound too! NikoSilver 14:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Bfffff .... I tried to follow you (Greek linguistics is an exciting theme for me), but .... What a waste of potential! Instead of "wasting" your time here analyzing and analyzing, why don't you unite your efforts to make a FA on linguistics, let's say Greek language. I seem fully-equipped users for the task here ... Think about my proposal ...--Yannismarou 13:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sigh... You're right, of course. I still have that big project of reworking the Greek language articles parked in my userspace. But at least I did some maps today, does that assuage your Olympic ire? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not completely, but it fills me with hope!--Yannismarou 09:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't want to feed your ego, but I do have to admit that it is a nice effort. So, I do not dare to be cross! IMO the article is already up to GA status (but this is subjective!). When you feel that you have completed your effort, and if you decide that you want to have serious aspirations about the article, and, you believe that I can help you, just let me know. What I can say for now is that I have Triantifyllides' Γραμματική and his Ιστορική Εισαγωγή (Official Volume Edition by the Greek State c. 1940 reprinted), and I'll have a look at it, in case I find something helpful.--Yannismarou 14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not completely, but it fills me with hope!--Yannismarou 09:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKvb2MkeiM
Problem
When I try to edit Talk:Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising, I can't; a notice appears which says "This page is currently semi-protected, and can only be edited by established registered users". Is there some other venue where I can complain about Strich3d's edits? It's foolish to assume that all Greeks in Macedonia at that time were "Grecomans" (even though the source cited speaks of "Greeks") and it's even more foolish to use websites like cybermacedonia.com as references.--NetProfit 15:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is none the more 'foolish' than using an obvious pro-bulgarian POV sites like promacedonia.com Capricornis 20:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Promacedonia.com is a collection of published books by experts, cybermacedonia.com is just amateurs' scribblings on the matter.--NetProfit 20:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- You forgot to add: "this is my own personal opinion" :) Capricornis 20:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- As did you :) --NetProfit 20:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- You forgot to add: "this is my own personal opinion" :) Capricornis 20:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Promacedonia.com is a collection of published books by experts, cybermacedonia.com is just amateurs' scribblings on the matter.--NetProfit 20:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I recreated that because of an edit war at Template:Greek people. El Greco refuses to remove the link even though the article has been deleted and it seems pointless to keep a red link if there is no hope of there ever being an article there (unlike for example Greeks in Russia).--NetProfit 21:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, do you think you could have a look at the edit war at Germanos Karavangelis.--NetProfit 21:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
He says it being deleted "doesn't mean it can't and won't be recreated".--NetProfit 21:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
How about the fact that NetProfit called be a bigot, doesn't that count for anything? See my talk page Vandalism section El Greco (talk · contribs) 23:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... whereas you calling the edit discussed "vandalism" was no problem.--NetProfit 23:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why don't you look at: WP:No_personal_attacks El Greco (talk · contribs) 23:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- In all fairness I didn't call you anything. Your assertion above that I called you a bigot is misleading to say the least.--NetProfit 23:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- And I quote Before making bigoted accusations like you recently did at Greece, I advise you to look at the available sources, from my talk page. Is that not calling me a bigot? El Greco (talk · contribs) 23:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- No. It's accusing you of "making bigoted accusations". I must admit, looking at your contributions history, you do tend to cite vandalism as a ground for reverting well intentioned edits rather often.--NetProfit 23:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- ...which is calling me a bigot. And looking at my contribution history is like judging a book by its cover. You got to read the book before you can comment on it. And just so you know a lot of the edits that happen here on Wikipedia are vandalism (go see your Germanos Karavangelis article) El Greco (talk · contribs) 00:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- No. It's accusing you of "making bigoted accusations". I must admit, looking at your contributions history, you do tend to cite vandalism as a ground for reverting well intentioned edits rather often.--NetProfit 23:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- And I quote Before making bigoted accusations like you recently did at Greece, I advise you to look at the available sources, from my talk page. Is that not calling me a bigot? El Greco (talk · contribs) 23:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- In all fairness I didn't call you anything. Your assertion above that I called you a bigot is misleading to say the least.--NetProfit 23:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
217.43.58.131 and Digby Tantrum
FYI , the user at IP 217.43.58.131 currently vandalising Digby Tantrum's talk page would appear to be a career vandal and sockpuppeteer who most-recently went by the now-blocked name of Learntruck. But then, you'll probably already know all this by the time it's taken me to write this... Best regards, Liquidfinale 11:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's about where I was right now. "Kunkanti" is definitely a hoax too. But of course Digby Tantrum shouldn't have been mass-reverting like that anyway. Will unblock him shortly, though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks
Hi Fut. Perf. It might be nice to revise your comments to include the fourth revert by NiYet, who an admin blocked for his (in the admin's words) a "clear-cut" violation of 3RR. As for "unconstructive," I noticed that Lactose at least added several references addressing the unsupported claims NiYet made five times in < 24 hours, attempting to weakly obscure by making some unrelated changes in the guise of "constructiveness."
I might add that I understand where you are coming from in terms of looking down on reverts in general, but keep in mind that some are (correctly) used not in a revert-war fashion, but in an appropriate illustration of consensus or fixing vandalism. Anon ip's especially plague this article with violating some pretty clear naming convention guidelines (such as changing all instances of "Sea of Japan" to "East Sea.") The naming convention guidelines in question involved dozens of editors and much discussion, and reflects on of the most successful instances of consensus compromises in Wikipedia. I don't want to fall into the "my version is the right version," (heck, it's why I reverted only once), but keep in mind that not all reverts are equal, and that in general editors bear the burden of supporting the insertion of unreferenced material with references if they want to add them.
I don't find editors such as NiYet especially constructive, as your comments had suggested, when they insist on a change that many times in a 24 hour period (5 before being blocked from doing it further) without even bothering to discuss the changes with the many editors who regularly edit the article, even when it became painfully clear that they were controversial edits. --Cheers, Komdori 23:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I too can see where you are coming from. I honestly didn't see a fourth revert - I may well have miscounted or missed some here or there. Frankly, I can't be bothered to re-count right now. Whether it's four or three doesn't really mean that much of a difference.
- But the point is, I have no evidence he is (was?) an abusive sock or meatpuppet. As long as we may assume he's a genuine newbie, AGF, BITE and BOLD apply. And that means, you don't revert their good-faith contributions. You don't revert them and then demand that they go to the talkpage and initiate a discussion. It's your obligation to go to the talkpage first and explain what you don't like. And you will please wait to give them a chance to explain their view, before you revert them. With newbie's, it's always primarily your responsibility to make sure an edit-war is stopped early.
- NIYet's contribution was about a prima facie good-faith, reasonable objection about an issue of POV wording; he explained it politely and intelligently, but he was repeatedly met with blind, blanket reverts. People didn't even bother to distinguish between reverting the change in naming order and the change in the wording regarding the subsidizing. This was bad. In such a case, my personal stance as an admin is I'm inclined to block the regulars, for WP:OWN violations, not the newbie. Personally, I probably wouldn't have blocked him even if I'd seen a fourth revert. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Since you are taking an interest in this article, you may want to review recent edits from melonbarmonster. I personally don't have a problem with putting Korea before Japan in the first paragraph, but he edited only for the sake of doing that, didn't run it by the talk page first, and reverted my change, which was to put back in some sourced and I think important information that he removed without explanation. I left the order of the countries the way he put it even though there is no justification for changing them. You don't need to block me, because I am going to take 24 hours off from this article, but you might want to consider warning him because he's being very rude and inflammatory. Alexwoods 21:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sigh. Yes. Your message came up here exactly the second I had blocked him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
My RfC
Is there any way you could take control of this? I know it's just an RfC and doesn't really mean much, but I'm getting support from users who are pretty clearly sockpuppets, which just makes me look bad. Lexicon (talk) 02:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Chechnya
Hi! A certain anon user adds nonsense to the articles about Chechnya and its history. He's been reverted by many people countless times but still engages in it using different ips. Could you semi-protect these articles for a while? Alæxis¿question? 06:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I can understand your plight, but strictly speaking semiprotection should not be used to give registered users the upper hand over anon users in a dispute. Was he ever warned about edit-warring, or blocked for it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, probably I should've warned him at his talk first... not that it would've changed anything, but still. Alæxis¿question? 12:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello
What exactly do you want from?? Are you one of the those who denide Macedonians to??
Pozdrav Makedonij 12:10 18 September 2007(UTC)
RFC Lexicon Closure
First let me commend you for your correct decision in closing an RFC that was opened without proper conflict resolution process. I have been in Wikipedia over a year and obviously deal with controversial issues such as Human Rights , Massacres, Assassinations , Rapes which not a fun thing to do as it can affect ones personal quality of life. I expect a certain kind of flack from people who disagree with me that such information is either wrong, trivial or outright embarrassing to be out there. This I have rationalized and accepted as part of my being part of the Wikipedia community. When you said that if this issue goes to an Arbcom then you see the potential of bans on both sides, you accept that there are clear cut two sides. I think the only two sides are not pro - Sri Lankan government versus anti- Sri Lankan government as it might present itself to any uninvolved outsider but those who play by Wikipedia rules and those who don’t. As you may have seen in the talk page of the effected editors, many Admins had a chance to correct the uncivil behavior much earlier on. By allowing the problem to grow now we have an rfc and a potential rfa, all taking time away from what we are here for, that is to contribute to the project. Just my thoughts Taprobanus 21:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
OTT
Hi there. Much of User Makedonij's front page reads like a personalised blog and is irredentist (I think that would also be the view from Athens, Skopje, Sofia and Tirana). This has happened in the past by User Makedonia and he kindly agreed to change (most, not all) the material incompatible with wikipedia terms. Politis 12:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
There are many userpages which reveal that the user's objective in Wikipedia is to spread propaganda (User:INkubusse (also look at the flags he uses to represent Bulgaria and Greece at the bottom of his userpage here), User:Strich3d, User:Vlatkoto and so on). I think it should be allowed, it helps regular users understand what kind of people they're dealing with (after all, a picture is worth a thousand words).--NetProfit 12:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would argue that flag waving can be seen as patriotic rather irridentist such as potentially irridentis maps and rhetoric. The final arbitor in such matters is probably wikipedia policy. I am certainly not in a position to edit user pages, just making an observation. Politis 13:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not complaining of irredentism; irredentism nowadays should be laughed at, not feared (incidentally, what do you think of this map with "United Macedonia"?). I'm making an observation that strongly nationalistic userpages reveal the aims of the owners on Wikipedia and how seriously one can expect them to be objective.--NetProfit 14:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
RE: Template removal
“ | In that case, it should never have gone into the template namespace in the first place. But let me advise you that it would be rather inappropriate, imo, even if just hard-coded on your page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC) | ” |
Can I just put it under my name as user:Wiki Raja/state sponsored terrorism? Wiki Raja 06:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Template:User state sponsored terrorism
What, in your opinion, is wrong with this userbox? I was going to userfy it but you deleted it before I had a chance to. When I figured out what had happened, I decided to defer to your decision but I would appreciate understanding your thought process since you reached a different conclusion than I did. My conclusion was: inappropriate for template space but OK in user space per the German userbox solution. Your conclusion seemed to be: inappropriate in any space. Can you explain why you reached that conclusion? Thanx.
--Richard 06:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- As per WP:CSD T1, templates that are "divisive and inflammatory" get deleted. The box contained a statement about State-sponsored terrorism, combined with a flag of Sri Lanka. It doesn't require magic powers of divination to conclude that the author wishes to imply that somebody on Sri Lanka is guilty of State-sponsored terrorism. If that's not a divisive statement, what is?
- To Wiki Raja, above: There's not such a clear-cut rule for what you can or can't do on your user page. But it would certainly be seen as a sign of a combative, uncooperative attitude towards a political dispute, so I'd strongly recommend not using it. (Hint: if this whole Sri Lankan case ever ends up at Arbcom again, I wouldn't want to be caught dead with a thing like that on my user page.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Couldn't the same be said about this? Wiki Raja 07:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just this minute I was looking at it. Yes, it could, in my opinion. Another admin already declined the speedy, otherwise I'd probably have deleted it. You might want to take it to WP:MFD; I'd be inclined to support deletion there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. BTW, I am a bit unfamiliar with WP:MFD in regards to the three step process. Wiki Raja 08:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, I have posted my discussion on this template here. Thanks. Wiki Raja 01:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. BTW, I am a bit unfamiliar with WP:MFD in regards to the three step process. Wiki Raja 08:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just this minute I was looking at it. Yes, it could, in my opinion. Another admin already declined the speedy, otherwise I'd probably have deleted it. You might want to take it to WP:MFD; I'd be inclined to support deletion there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Couldn't the same be said about this? Wiki Raja 07:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
rules of conduct
Hi, Future Perfect. I want to hear your opinion because you proposed Talk:Liancourt Rocks#New rules of conduct. Is such a one-sided edit permitted? [4] I think that he violates "uncooperative editing" and "slow it down".--Opp2 08:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Translation
Here's the translation: Hey, there are some pictures of Ancient (or old) Greek atlases on kajgana (kajgana.com) with the name μακεδονία (makedonia)... I can't contact the admins, but I'll try and ask for them, just tell me if they'll be of any use... If we, the participants of WP ROMacedonia, think of something, the Greeks won't be happy :) (trying to say that if they prove anything, the Greeks won't take it too euphorically lol) INkubusse 20:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Also, I'd like to ask you what you think about OTT. NetProfit mentions me and accuses me of spreading propaganda and irridentism. This is an attack against my reputation on Wikipedia! If you are worried about my purpose on Wikipedia, you can look in my contributions for any "illegal" activities. If you need explanations about anything on my user page, you can get it from me, you don't have to wait for them (and them is Bulgarians and Greeks). All I'm asking from you is to tell them to stop fouling my name all the time! If you need ANY explanation or anything else from me, ASK ME, don't wait for them, please. Thank you in advance. iNkubusse?
- Thanks for the translation. As for those maps, if it's the ones Revizionist brought forward the other day, they aren't apparently worth too much. But what he writes there is interesting in another way, it tells us something about how he imagines that WikiProject should work. I have to tell you, if that's what the project is going to be about, then it will very soon be closed down. -- As for the discussion above, well, the point about the flag on your mk-wiki user page is, I have to agree with them. Absolutely tasteless. And you can't really expect being taken seriously as a good-faith contributor here if you do things like that over there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure as to which maps you refer as useless. For anyone who has lived on the balkans before 1989 it is commonly accepted fact that Macedonia and Macedonian referred overwhelmingly to the southernmost republic of SFR Yugoslavia - SR Macedonia. All the schoolbooks from decades before that mention that fact as a common knowledge. The problem here is that not many people keep those school books from 20-30 years ago, nor do have time to dig'em up, get'em shipped, scanned etc. just to prove an obvious point to a bunch of ultra-nationalist Bulgarians and Greeks. I definitely do not have the time, nor motivation for it, there are enough problems in my everyday life without adding the made-up ones from wikipedia. Capricornis 22:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Nah, I think it sounds that way because of the translation. That's everyday (informal) Macedonian talk and when translated in English, it sounds a bit rough. As for the discussion above, I see, I know it's absolutely tasteless (except for the sake of humor). But I wasn't reffering to that; he makes an impression about me as if I were a propagandist or such... The tasteless detail with the flags is pure irony and has nothing to do with propaganda, and as far as I know, it doesn't break any rules. They don't have to like me, but accusing me for spreading propaganda (the sole purpose!) and irridentism is just too much for me. iNkubusse? —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure as to which maps you refer as useless. For anyone who has lived on the balkans before 1989 it is commonly accepted fact that Macedonia and Macedonian referred overwhelmingly to the southernmost republic of SFR Yugoslavia - SR Macedonia. All the schoolbooks from decades before that mention that fact as a common knowledge. The problem here is that not many people keep those school books from 20-30 years ago, nor do have time to dig'em up, get'em shipped, scanned etc. just to prove an obvious point to a bunch of ultra-nationalist Bulgarians and Greeks. I definitely do not have the time, nor motivation for it, there are enough problems in my everyday life without adding the made-up ones from wikipedia. Capricornis 22:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the translation. As for those maps, if it's the ones Revizionist brought forward the other day, they aren't apparently worth too much. But what he writes there is interesting in another way, it tells us something about how he imagines that WikiProject should work. I have to tell you, if that's what the project is going to be about, then it will very soon be closed down. -- As for the discussion above, well, the point about the flag on your mk-wiki user page is, I have to agree with them. Absolutely tasteless. And you can't really expect being taken seriously as a good-faith contributor here if you do things like that over there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, this user is asking his block to be reviewed. Since I am not familiar with the mess this article is, would you like to comment/review the block? :) -- lucasbfr talk 22:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just saw it myself. See you over at his talk page again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well complaints of disruptive editing exist on both sides of this very POV issue. I only ask that you refrain from attributing such complaints just to my edits especially if it's coming from Komdori. Also, I made my edits accompanied by edit explanations only to be attacked with sarcasm, name-calling from Alexwoods. I understand this article is a mess but maybe we should be strict with the civility requirement instead of the rogue rules. Also, you need to make the rogue rules more prominent so that new editors are aware of them. Maybe we can put a partial lock on the page or something.melonbarmonster 22:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Uncooperative editing
ooops, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the new rules in force for the Liancourt Rocks article, and thank you for not blocking me, I might lack tact and be a little thoughtless with my edits at times, but I wasn't looking to get banned - thanks again for giving me a warning instead of a ban.
BTW is it possible for the warning to be shown on the actual edit page, rather/as well as the discussion page? I think that would ensure that there are no more silly edits and admins will not have to consider "hmmmmm did they see the warning or not?" thanks Sennen goroshi 17:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject ROMacedonia/To Do List
Refrain from unilaterally deleting content from this project without discussing it first. There is no POV pushing whatsoever on the page, but a simple list of articles that need attention in order of importance. If you took the time to look at the list of members, you would have seen there's a greek and a bulgarian guy among the members, and I am sure they will keep an eye on any POV better than you. thank you Capricornis 19:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure what you refer to as "political "to do" messages", but I don't see an of that, and if you don't stop with your unhelpful edits on wikiproject ROM, I will be forced to present this case in from of the larger wikipedia community and its administrators. There is nothing wrong with pointing out to articles most urgently needing attention, and changing FYROM to RoM, and the place most appropriate for that is the wikiproject page. I do not understand why do you delete the task of changing fyrom, when you are perfectly familiar with other users who systematically 'disambiguate' Macedonia to RoM, macedon, etc. Capricornis 08:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
edit summaries?
Sure, I keep forgetting, I'll start using them.
Oh, another thing. I want to ask you why you specifically blocked only the Korea side editors? What is that supposed to mean? That you're going to hand out blocks to Korean editors, or maybe that its a sign your going to pick on us?
Look, we've had way too much trouble around here. And its not just the Korean editors that are at fault. We've taken our cases to dispute resolution processes before and it almost always went against us. You know why? Its because editors like LactoseTI or Komdori make their arguments using WP:NPOV. Simply because Korea has a stronger history of claim than Japan in Liancourt Rocks doesn't mean that its biased. Thats a fact and it'll show up on the article regardless of what they think. But by using WP:NPOV, it seems as if the JPOV editors' arguments are justified. Trying to put Japan at equal political footage on Wikipedia doesn't work. I just wanted to let you know that.
This has gone too far. By mentioning that you didn't block us for biased reasons, shows that you are biased yourself, of course the action shows it as well. When LactoseTI reports me for 3RR, that means he has been edit warring too.
I'm extremely displeased with how pro-Japan editors are tearing apart Korean-related articles everyday (no I'm not exxagerating. Check Kimchi, Goguryeo, Korean War, Balhae, Korean Cuisine, to name a few) and even more angry at how almost every single administrator I've met has failed to be fair to all of us.
I'm cooking up enough evidence to make sure that some editors here are dealt with accordingly. I never said that I'm perfect, but I'm ready to strike down on anti-Korean sentiment here.
So, why am I ranting like this? Because I'm having an emotional breakdown? No, because the story has been like this ever since. I think you should know that too. Good friend100 20:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm, this is a bit weird now... First of all, how the question of whether fermented cabbage is good for you can become an issue of national contention is beyond me... (I prefer sauerkraut, anyway, it's just as full of vitamins but not as spicy.) But apart from that... So, you find Korea's arguments are objectively stronger, so any treatment in the article that gives equal weight to Korean and Japanese arguments is inherently unjust? Well, fine, but how do you expect to explain this to somebody who happens to believe that Korea's arguments are not objectively stronger? That's the whole point about NPOV, you know, we have to reflect both their opinions and yours. If you believe that a page is only okay if it lets your POV appear to be the stronger one, I can't help you, you will never be happy here at Wikipedia.
- As for my blocks, believe it or not, I was rather surprised myself that my first three victims were all from one side. But I can't help it, three people broke the rules there, others didn't.
- As for the case itself, Liancourt Rocks, I'm as neutral as can be. I have not the slightest sympathies or antipathies towards either Koreans or Japanese; politically, I couldn't care less whose islets these are, and factually, I have not the slightest idea what the relevant arguments are. Didn't find the time even to read the article in full, and what I did read didn't help understanding the issues much. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Saying that "we have to reflect both their opinions and yours" is fair and thats supposed to neutral. But the JPOV editors use NPOV to make the article biased in their favor. Thats the problem.
- And I'm surprised too! Why fermented cabbage could become a "national contention". Lactose is the one making it about pro-Korea and anti-Korea. There were no problems at Kimchi until Lactose started to complain that his sentence should be included.
- I still am not happy with how you deal things here. And I don't care how surprised you are about the blocks or how you claim that your neutral. Your actions show that you aren't neutral. Good friend100 21:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Archiving
Since you seem to be our (at least temporarily) resident janitor over at Liancourt Rocks, might you be willing to take a stab at archiving the talk page for us? It really should be done with the move method, but I'm afraid to mess with anything right now since things are looking cautiously optimistic in terms of quality of discussion. Most of the sections are relatively recent (in the past month or so), but it's over 250K, and if we need to revisit a stagnated conversation later we can always revive it.
In general, thanks for taking an interest in helping everyone sort out the tangle there. —LactoseTIT 23:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Over a week ago, you left a message on The Behnam's talkpage, asking him to remove this page. he acknowledged reading it, but has done nothing to remove the page so far. Perhaps you need to discuss this with him further. Or should I just go ahead and delete it, and let you know if he re-creates it? Jeffpw 06:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ah right, thanks. I guess the most correct path of action would be an MfD then. It's a pity he hasn't been more cooperative, as I've always thought of him as a very sensible contributor. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done and thanks. Jeffpw 11:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Fut. Perf., I saw your post on ANI about policing the Liancourt Rocks article, and wondered if you had noticed the Liancourt Rocks-related edits over at Japanese Sea Lion, e.g. [5] by User:Jjok. Long ago, Jjok was suspected of being a sockpuppet of User:Opp2--the case is Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Opp2. I found that accusation plausible then, and I think it's plausible now. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ahhh. Darned socks. Actually, I'm skeptical about Jjok and Opp2, they seem to be in different timezones. But I have another suspicious pair I'm looking at right now. Can I send you some data off-wiki? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please do. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
BLP concern
Hello! As you are a at the moment active admin I would like to ask you to take a look at the history of the article Mossad. I have removed the addition of an IP about a named person to be a leading agent of this organisation and being involved in an assassination. While this could just be nonsense I think it might be a good idea to also remove this reversions from the edit history as it could be dangerous for a person by this name in the area to be named in such a context even in the page history. Thanks for your consideration.VirtualDelight 17:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Request for assistance
Hi Future, I have a couple of editors I would like you to quietly take a look at in regards to Flavius/Shup (its pretty clear he has been very actively evading his block). I have been working on Talk:Turkey this week, and Shup showed up through one of the Italian IP's through which we generally find him. He's pretty much behaving, but using a large number of IP's, and while sifting through these, I ran across the edit history of Ankara for September 25th where I noticed two suspect editors here [6]:
1) User:Kemalist Yurtsever who made a first edit on 9/15 and was then inactive until 9/25 and seems to be making the same edits Flav normally would. I'm nearly certain this is a sock, but ask for your opinion because I do not want to be overly aggressive or bitey.
2) User:Plenumchamber has been editing since 1/8 with few problems. I am less certain that this is a sock, and wholly admit this is really a case of suspicion by association. This editor, like Kemalist Yurtsever, made a handful of edits immedeatly prior (within the same half hour) to one of the Italian IP's. In both cases, this looks like Flavius signing out and continuing to edit anonymously. But as I noted, this editor really has not been a problem... but with the sheer number of sock IP's and user names, I thought it warranted a little more scrutiny.
Thanks for your time. Hiberniantears 13:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let me also add User:Patrick Sanders to that list. The edit summaries alone are dead on, as well as the list of spoken languages. Hiberniantears 13:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Likewise, the following is of note: [7] Hiberniantears 16:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi again Fut. Per., I think User:Patrick Sanders is definetly Shup, and I think he was editing today alternating between that user name, and then anonymously as User:151.37.178.16 to create some plausible deniability. He's making tons of edits to a large number of articles; some edits are good, some are bad, and some are simply an effort to instigate problems. With the large number of user names and IP's which he is employing, I think it makes it very hard for anyone but those few of us who are familiar with the issue from working constructively on any of the articles in question. Even still, I'm keeping my distance from a large number of articles which I would like to work on right now because I can't tell which users are actual individuals, and which ones may/may not be Shup. Because he drops positive and negative contributions using alternating accounts, I think it is clear that he is trying to systematically obfuscate the edit history of all these articles so that it is nearly impossible for anyone else to meaningfully contribute. I'm giving him the room to operate freely for the time being for two reasons: First, I can't tell who's a new editor, and who is Shup. Second, I don't want to get in an edit war with him, and he makes so many changes that it is nearly impossible to make a simple change without him jumping on it. I know this is extreme, but what are your thoughts on an IP range block for a short period of time (24 hours)? I think this will at least let us get an idea of a more stable version of some articles before he jumps back in after the block expires (even though it will probably block a large section of Italy). I am interested in knowing your thoughts on this. Thanks! Hiberniantears 17:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Votespamming
Capricornis (talk · contribs) and MatriX (talk · contribs)? ForeignerFromTheEast 22:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey Fut.Perf, I came a little bit late in the discussion about the deletion of the R. of Macedonia Wiki project (I voted there now and left several messages on the talk pages). I'm sorry that you proposed a deletion of the whole project after your quarrel with Capricornis and other users regarding the project's To do list. Don't you think the deletion of the whole project because of the supposedly POV-pushing To Do list is a little bit excessive? We all know the articles in that To do list (Ilinden uprising, Jane Sandanski etc) are target of a frequent edit warring (not all of them, there are some benign articles like Thermal Spas in Republic of Macedonia etc), but not only the Macedonian editors are engaged in such behavior (I shouldn't tell you this, you know that well) and I simply cannot believe that you proposed deletion of the whole project because of the problematic To do list. I believe this proposal of yours came after your warning on the Capricornis talk page where you asked him to stop his behavior on the disputed project, otherwise you'd have no other choice than to propose the whole project for deletion? MatriX 23:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. The user has promised to stop editwarring on the topics he was blocked for. I'm inclined to grant his unblock request. Would you like to comment on it? Sandstein 04:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)