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::::::That's the thing: I don't know where the line is. That's why I started this discussion with you, and perhaps it would be worth starting a discussion elsewhere with more people involved. I'm not trying to harangue you here, I just am not sure it's appropriate. The content in your userpage could easily be interpreted to be in violation of the two bits of policy I mentioned [[User_talk:Timeshift9#Your_userpage|before]]. However, I recognize that this kind of thing has also been allowed to a degree in the past. <span style="font-family: Georgia">– [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small></span> 23:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC) |
::::::That's the thing: I don't know where the line is. That's why I started this discussion with you, and perhaps it would be worth starting a discussion elsewhere with more people involved. I'm not trying to harangue you here, I just am not sure it's appropriate. The content in your userpage could easily be interpreted to be in violation of the two bits of policy I mentioned [[User_talk:Timeshift9#Your_userpage|before]]. However, I recognize that this kind of thing has also been allowed to a degree in the past. <span style="font-family: Georgia">– [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small></span> 23:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Huh? You open with a rather demanding ''"What gives?"'' and then say you just want a discussion and have no idea where the line is. If you don't want to "harangue" him and admit you don't know what the boundaries are, aren't you better just to leave it alone? Personally, I think it's a bit of a silly user page, but there's already been so much unnecessary disruption, distress, and time and effort wasting on this thing, why expend more? Move along already. --[[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] ([[User talk:Merbabu|talk]]) 00:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:57, 31 July 2011
Welcome to my talk page, where you are welcome to leave a message at the bottom of this page for any reason at all and I will attempt to respond ASAP. I try to remember to respond on your talk page, and I mostly do, but if you leave a message here and for some reason i'm not replying, perhaps check back here from time to time :-)
My edit count. Backup if not working. 2,650 watchlist articles and counting.
There is no cabal. Mmmm, cabal....
Your userpage
I've been looking through your userpage and have a few concerns. Although the guidelines and policies regarding content in userpages are relatively lax, your userpage seems to be going a bit far. My main concern is regarding WP:What Wikipedia is not. Two of these apply to your page:
- Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, religious, sports-related, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. See Wikipedia:Advocacy.
- Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (for example, passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete. However, Wikipedia's sister project Wikinews allows commentaries on its articles.
- Scandal mongering, something "heard through the grapevine" or gossip. Articles and content about living people are required to meet an especially high standard, as they may otherwise be libellous or infringe the subjects' right to privacy. Articles should not be written purely to attack the reputation of another person.
- Personal web pages. Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. If you are looking to make a personal webpage or blog or to post your résumé, please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet account. The focus of user pages should not be social networking, or amusement, but rather providing a foundation for effective collaboration. Humorous pages that refer to Wikipedia in some way may be created in an appropriate namespace, however.
You're offering some very strong opinions. For what purpose? The page does little other than make other editors uncomfortable collaborating with you. Furthermore, some of the opinions ("Fatty O'Farrell", "They run the political show with an IQ of less than 0.", "Pure politics... and Turnbull has no balls if he won't fight for what he believes in.", etc.) are attacks, or at the very least, violations of the BLP policy. I suggest that you add a {{db-userreq}} to remove the page and its history, and if you like, recreate the page with content that is more appropriate for Wikipedia. If you decide not to do so, consider this your notification that I will begin a MfD discussion. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 14:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Timeshift, I'd like to echo the sentiments above. I understand your justification for using your userpage this way ("NPOV is for articles, bias is better declared"), and to some extent I'm sure it has served that function. However, especially over the last 12 months, I feel you've begun to cross a line. As GorillaWarfare points out, this has found you in violation of our personal attacks and BLP policies. Furthermore, your userpage is making things more difficult with new editors to the Australian Politics Wikiproject, for whom your userpage is often their first interaction with the WikiProject. For them, it doesn't look like a simple declaration of bias, it looks like a flagrant disregard for the neutrality necessary for an encyclopaedia, and it makes them instantly combative when dealing with you specifically, and with the project more broadly. I honestly believe that it would be in the best interests of the WikiProject for you to replace your page with a simple declaration of your biases, more akin to what it was like in your first years of editing.
- I know you've managed to deflect concerns about your userpage in the past, Timeshift, but I'm afraid it'll be best for everyone if you take GorillaWarfare's advice now, rather than taking this to an MfD. Your userpage will certainly be deleted if we head down that road, and I for one don't want to see an editor who has done so much good for this part of Wikipedia be dragged before a broader forum that will have no qualms digging in with gutso. -- Lear's Fool 02:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I believe i've addressed the BLP concerns I consider to hold some validity (most of GW's initial post refers to articles, not userpages). Let's take a step back and look... this only came about as a result of Enidblyton. The last person to complain about my userpage was a few years ago, and i'm not sure if i'm correct but I seem to recall some sort of sock activity with that too. TimBracks13 was not a new user and their concerns were not genuine. If anyone has further concerns over my userpage, i'm happy to discuss them. But I won't remove my opinions from my userpage, we've been through this before, my page containing my views is in itself not a violation. Timeshift (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that editors are allowed, within reason, to use their user page to express their personal views as long as it's not judged to be offensive to an identifiable person/people or being explicitly used to recruit others. I've seen ultra right wing and borderline Nazi user pages survive MfDs in the past, for instance (though views on this kind of thing seem to be - rightly in my view - hardening). Editors are generally given a lot of latitude with what they use their user page for, though they do need to be aware that its content will guide other editors' views of them. Nick-D (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Nick: Sure, but it has a particular effect on editors new to the project. When I started editing 18 months ago and stumbled upon Timeshift's userpage, it had a couple of comments, some links to interesting articles that were generally favourable to the left, and a prominent userbox explaining that the purpose of all this was to disclose bias. These days, it's become significantly more partisan and blog-like. New editors (not just Enid) can see it as being aggressive and hostile, and I don't think that helps anyone. I'd be satisfied with a more prominent indication of the purpose of the page, and a toning down of the partisan nature of the commentary. -- Lear's Fool 08:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- You could always create a blog and add {{User blogger}} to your userpage, that way you can say what ever you want without worrying about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Bidgee (talk) 09:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I actually have pointed out how it breaks guidelines, in my original post. Although you have removed some of the libelous information, all of the problems mentioned in WP:NOT still remain. Since you seem to be unwilling to delete, I'm going to go ahead and start the MfD discussion. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 20:34, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 20:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I actually have pointed out how it breaks guidelines, in my original post. Although you have removed some of the libelous information, all of the problems mentioned in WP:NOT still remain. Since you seem to be unwilling to delete, I'm going to go ahead and start the MfD discussion. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 20:34, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I have already addressed the BLP vios and have made it clear that i'm happy to address other BLP vios if brought up. I do not believe my userpage is something to be voted upon and potentially its contents removed from me. Ive been putting my views and thoughts there for years, people don't have to read my userpage if they don't want to. It's not an article. To quote the admin on this talk page: "It's worth noting that editors are allowed, within reason, to use their user page to express their personal views as long as it's not judged to be offensive to an identifiable person/people or being explicitly used to recruit others. I've seen ultra right wing and borderline Nazi user pages survive MfDs in the past, for instance (though views on this kind of thing seem to be - rightly in my view - hardening). Editors are generally given a lot of latitude with what they use their user page for, though they do need to be aware that its content will guide other editors' views of them." Timeshift (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Baleeted
Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too. - Voltaire
What a joke. Commiserations. Perhaps you could go down the path of Cut & paste - plopping incongruous quotes next to each other. --Surturz (talk) 04:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, this is pretty dumb. I hope that you don't model your new user page on The Australian though! Nick-D (talk) 08:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
As you participated in Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 June 5#User:Timeshift9. T. Canens (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- sorry to see you go. but take heart, as one editor said "the irony is that if I were an Australian and the userpage was a blog, I'd probably be watching it, as I often agreed with Timeshift's opinions" therefore, stop casting pearls before swine, make a weekly blog, network, put up ads, make money. have pity on the deleters, they admire the creators. Slowking4 (talk) 17:12, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Your userpage (again)
Hey Timeshift, it's great to see your name on my watchlist again, and I'm sure others will agree. I'm afraid you may have to accept that you will no longer be able to use your userpage in the same way as you did previously. I don't think it would be appropriate to provide you a copy of the last revision with an eye to you restoring the content on your userpage, as this would flout the decision made at the MfD and the resultant Deletion Review. Such a restoration may well be eligible for a G4 speedy deletion. If I were you, I would simply replace your userpage with a link to a blogspot blog or something. I would be more than happy to provide you with previous revisions for use in an external blog. Otherwise, you may have to go for a second deletion review, although I imagine that would be unsuccessful. -- Lear's Fool 05:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's not really acceptable. A lot of the issue was that there were potential BLP violations available in the userpage history. I am certainly allowed to have some opinion on my userpage. I need to know what level that is. Timeshift (talk) 05:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- this archive is from 2008, but probably not much help. This is now an issue of admin control, not content. I'd wait a few months until the pricks lose interest. Fight the power! Once united, we can never be defeated! Smash the State! Solidarity forever! :-) --Surturz (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Images listed for deletion
Some files that you uploaded or altered, had been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2011 July 20. Take a look to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in why is it going to be deleted. The files are:
- File:Dunstan1970caucus.JPG
- File:UnfinishedPK.jpg
- File:RecollectionsPK.jpg
- File:M596285.jpg
- File:MohamedHaneef.jpg
- File:Hanna1.jpg
- File:JohnHowardCrop.JPG
- File:KevinRudd3Copy.jpg
- File:John Howard May 2006 crop.jpg
- File:Don Steele.JPG
- File:Terry Roberts.jpg
- File:Sametro02.jpg
- File:Sastate06.jpg
- File:Sametro06.jpg
- File:Sastate02.jpg
- File:Metro07.PNG
- File:Map7-2004.gif
- File:Map8-2004.gif
- File:BASantamaria.jpg
Thank you, --damiens.rf 16:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Your userpage
Heyo again, Timeshift. Someone just notified me that you again have bloggy content on your userpage. What gives? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- What gives is that nobody has been willing to state exactly how much is too much. Users are given a longer leash with their userpage and can contain thoughts and opinions. The stickler that people pointed out in the last deletion is that BLP vios were in the edit history. It is no longer. Rather than come down on me like a ton of bricks, can you constructively assist? I have had a couple of questions raised in the past over my userpage, and up until the recent episodes with the latest to be reported to you by what appears to be a sockpuppet, it has been again and again deemed ok. I would appreciate it if we could have a sensible productive discussion. Timeshift (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am not trying to "come down on you like a ton of bricks". I'm simply asking what your reasoning is. My real question here is why you feel the need to have this content on your userpage at all. Most of us get by with no issue by having short autobiographical/Wikipedia-related content on our userpages, and hosting our political opinions, if we like, on external blog sites that are intended for this purpose. Why are you so keen on using Wikipedia for this? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Because I want my views expressed on the userpage... "This user believes that only articles need reflect a NPOV, and that displaying political, religious, or other beliefs on user and talk pages should be encouraged. Bias is better declared". I don't want to start a blog, i'm much happier having only one login and can edit, add or cut the static userpage. It's a good design and i'm happy with it. Timeshift (talk) 22:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- That userbox to me means that a user can make general statements about his or her political beliefs. If there's something that might come up when they're editing, such as a strong left-wing editor editing right-wing pages, etc., it's good to state this so people know what to check. I see your userpage as much too specific to actually provide any declared bias. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's the thing: I don't know where the line is. That's why I started this discussion with you, and perhaps it would be worth starting a discussion elsewhere with more people involved. I'm not trying to harangue you here, I just am not sure it's appropriate. The content in your userpage could easily be interpreted to be in violation of the two bits of policy I mentioned before. However, I recognize that this kind of thing has also been allowed to a degree in the past. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Huh? You open with a rather demanding "What gives?" and then say you just want a discussion and have no idea where the line is. If you don't want to "harangue" him and admit you don't know what the boundaries are, aren't you better just to leave it alone? Personally, I think it's a bit of a silly user page, but there's already been so much unnecessary disruption, distress, and time and effort wasting on this thing, why expend more? Move along already. --Merbabu (talk) 00:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)