:::::::Interesting idea (really, the venue matters less than the end product - getting people to improve their writing skills if they genuinely are interested in doing so). I've had time to think on aspects of this as well, and my main concern is that as far as I can tell for borderline (and not so borderline) cases it is perfectly legitimate for users to disagree over whether a particular text is close paraphrasing of a source or not. So my question is what happens at that point? If an editor thinks something doesn't cross the line into close paraphrasing, should they say so (and risk a big argument), or should they give way and rewrite a bit to satisfy whoever they are disagreeing with? Is it more damaging to end up with people rewriting things they don't need to rewrite, or more damaging to have people think something is OK when it isn't? Both are wrong, but while I see lots of effort made to avoid the latter (identified problems not being addressed), I don't see much effort being made to avoid the former (people carrying out unnecessary rewrites). [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 22:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Interesting idea (really, the venue matters less than the end product - getting people to improve their writing skills if they genuinely are interested in doing so). I've had time to think on aspects of this as well, and my main concern is that as far as I can tell for borderline (and not so borderline) cases it is perfectly legitimate for users to disagree over whether a particular text is close paraphrasing of a source or not. So my question is what happens at that point? If an editor thinks something doesn't cross the line into close paraphrasing, should they say so (and risk a big argument), or should they give way and rewrite a bit to satisfy whoever they are disagreeing with? Is it more damaging to end up with people rewriting things they don't need to rewrite, or more damaging to have people think something is OK when it isn't? Both are wrong, but while I see lots of effort made to avoid the latter (identified problems not being addressed), I don't see much effort being made to avoid the former (people carrying out unnecessary rewrites). [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 22:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
{{unindent}}I can't really say how things are handled outside of [[WP:CP]] when there is disagreement, but I have seen people disagree about this before. Generally, if two or more contributors are disagreeing about the paraphrase at the talk page, the uninvolved admin who handles the CP listing will make the call. And when I am the admin making that call, if I think it's borderline, I will usually round up another admin or two who work copyright to help look at the content to make the decision.
Our copyright policy is written conservatively; the passage that tends to generate more work for me is this one: "'''Never''' use materials that infringe the copyrights of others. This could create legal liabilities and seriously hurt Wikipedia. If in doubt, write the content yourself, thereby creating a new copyrighted work which can be included in Wikipedia without trouble." (I link to [[WP:C]] not because I think you haven't read it, but because I am required to attribute. :D) Because of this passage, if there is ''significant'' good faith concern about paraphrase (meaning that it is not clearly beyond reason), I would sooner help rewrite it myself than dismiss it as unwarranted. It's all connected to the exemption doctrine policy, really. The big difference here is that, unlike with a picture of Spiderman, we almost always ''do'' have the option of creating free text. :) I have myself created new text to replace close paraphrasing concerns that I thought very tenuous. I don't use {{tl|cclean}} on the talk; I don't rev delete; I don't in any way suggest the content is a copyright violation in my edit summary. I usually just note that I am "revising to separate further from source" or something like that.
Certainly if somebody thinks something is not a close paraphrase, they should say so. How they say so matters, though, just as much as it matters how people who think (or know) there is a problem approach it. I'd really like to see diplomacy and consideration on all sides of the copyright equation. We should approach the issue thoughtfully and try to keep emotions down. I think our best chance of creating a harmonious community, conscious of copyright issues and in agreement as to what constitutes acceptable content, will come in eliminating drama and shame from the equation insofar as humanly possible. I try to "assume good faith" to the breaking point on this issue, but I may have a natural advantage there in that in my professional career I have worked with people in person who would have seemed deliberately obtuse if I had not known them well enough to know better. Some people - even those whose paraphrases are ''blatantly'' unacceptable - simply have a hard time getting that. I can understand that even highly intelligent people can have blind spots in certain areas; [[Theory_of_multiple_intelligences#Spatial|spatial intelligence]] is challenging for me. But just because I'm not naturally inclined to be a great architect doesn't mean I'm not great with other areas. :) But by the same token, we don't want to burn people who try to help identify copyright problems if they are wrong; they, too, are trying to improve the project and need to be kindly brought in line with community standards. --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 11:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
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Re:Copyright
Hello, Moonriddengirl. You have new messages at Mar4d's talk page. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Billy Hathorn
Do we have any one-more-strike-and-you're-out sanctions on Billy right now? I've cleaned up a bunch of close paraphrasing on Bryan Hughes (Texas politician), which was just created less than three hours ago. Nyttend (talk) 03:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please leave me a talkback: I'll not remember to come back here if you don't. Nyttend (talk) 03:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He should have been out long ago; it's violations of the most egregious kind because he continues and continues, and doesn't respond to concerns. It's not only the copyvio issues-- he also creates bios of unnotable people by using information supplied by the subject or friends and family of the subject (law profiles, obit info), and he contines to create uncited articles. If there's another discussion of the need to block this user, pls ping me in, as I'm too busy IRL to keep up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's a state representative: there's no question that this guy passes WP:POLITICIAN. The page is also heavily cited from news articles and from state government websites; aside from its author, the page as I left it has no problems as far as I'm aware. Nyttend (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not talking about this case-- speaking in general for other bios. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, as I've noticed that with other articles as well; I simply wanted to ensure that you realised this case was different from many of his other creations. Nyttend (talk) 01:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have a blanket "one strike and you're out" for anybody who creates additional problems while subject to a WP:CCI. My thought is that we are failing the community if we ask them to assist in cleaning up after somebody but permit them to continue making messes. But his is an unusual case, however, in that some of his close paraphrases are borderline, and his CCI has scarcely been touched due to the tremendous backlog there, so we don't have anything to demonstrate how widespread of an issue it may be. With blatant copy-pasting, there'd be no controversy. There was enough evidence, according to the discussions at ANI, to open the CCI, but there is only one green check mark on the whole listing. I think that a block in this kind of situation would need to follow consensus at ANI, and evidence would need to include demonstration of what was copied from where. (I frequently will put a note on the talk page when cleaning issues of that sort that include passages quoted from the sources in contrast to passages quoted from the article. It's easy to point to those when discussing problems with the creator or with others.) I don't myself have time to investigate this for an ANI listing right now. :/ I generally like to assemble very clear cases before proposing sanctions, and that can take many hours for me. I'm not the most active admin on the block button. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You may want to check the page history; I found at least one bit of copy/pasting and at least one of close paraphrasing (I found several problematic bits, and I can't remember how many were of each type), so those I completely rewrote. Nyttend (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also cleaned up several bios he created after he was notified many times, but I'd have to go back in my contribs to find them ... I'm sorry I just don't have more time to help ... only saw this because I have your page watchlisted. He continues to create messes, so whatever the next step is, we should take it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, Nyttend - if one or both of you can find the other articles, I'd block for at least a week, and those would easily be enough for an ANI discussion to determine if the block should be extended. Ed[talk][majestic titan] 16:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Ed, for pitching in here. I can try to take a look this weekend, but if you've both already cleaned content and can offer tangible examples, that would be soooo helpful. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 00:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The only example that I can offer is Bryan Hughes, since I've not actively kept up on Billy's work; I only found it because I was looking through Special:Newpages for potential DYK noms. Nyttend (talk) 01:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, here's more close paraphrasing; see the text I removed in this edit. I chopped it because it's based on a blog, but after I cut it, I decided to look at the source. Compare the text that I removed with the paragraph in the source that begins with "In the hearing" — this is unacceptable. I'm going to ask for action at ANI unless Ed believes this to be sufficient for blocking. Nyttend (talk) 01:16, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And he's restored it again; I've removed it again with the rationale that it's based on a blog, but any more reversions will be done on copyright grounds to avoid the 3RR problem. Any more reversions are dependent on how much time I have available, which quite possibly will be almost nothing. Nyttend (talk) 03:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's an opinion piece from a miscellaneous businessman in the community. Clearly, that's not a reliable source for a BLP, and it's probably removable without fear of WP:3RR on that ground alone. But while close paraphrasing issues are subjective, this particular passage does not seem like the same kind of issue to me, although I may be overlooking something. It's just past 6:00 a.m. here, and last night was not a good one. :) But here's what was in the article:
Under oath at his own request, Hughes identified the informant as District 62 Representative Larry Phillips, an attorney from Sherman and a member of the Ethics Committee. Phillips, who was not under oath, removed himself as a committee member for the hearing and denied Hughes's accusation. The committee did not reach a judgment because of the lack of corroborating witnesses.
In the hearing, Rep. Hughes asked that he be placed under oath as he gave his testimony; but Rep. Phillips did not volunteer to give his testimony under oath [citation omitted]. Undoubtedly, as an attorney, Rep. Phillips knew that he could lose his attorney’s license if he lied under oath. The hearing ended without judgment because of the “he said, she said” nature of the conversation.
When I bring close paraphrasing concerns before ANI, I like to be able to demonstrate clearly where issues lie, as I did in one of the few of Billy's articles I've evaluated, here. The limited runs of duplicated text make it very easy for others to see the concern. Copyright problems can exist, of course, even in the absence of any duplication of material at all, but when talking about an appropriation of other creative elements, bulk is helpful in demonstrating issues. This is a small passage with similar structure, and one could argue that the structure is minimally creative because it is chronological - accusation, recusal, closure.
From what I've seen, Billy has been very difficult to work with. He seems often to skate the line, possibly unintentionally, and he does not work with others when problems are pointed out to him. As recently as 9/17, he is still denying that the review has uncovered issues (although I'm sure that the lack of progress on his individual CCI is contributing to that :/), but note that he was told about my comments at his talk page and asked to respond. He never did. It is impossible to determine if Billy understands and can correct problems when he will not acknowledge community concerns. Our community is not really quite as good at dealing with disruptive editing ("Rejects or ignores community input") than it is other issues. :/ --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(With respect to the BLP concern, I have now notified him that the blog cannot be used. I hope that he will review the links I've provided and, whether he responds or not, behave appropriately with regards to sourcing. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 11:23, 28 September 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I've still not got time to catch up on Wiki today, but using non-reliable sources (like blogs) is another old pattern of his-- part of why I've long said he should not be editing-- the problems are not only copyvio, there are also multiple sourcing and notability issues, likely covering hundreds of articles that will never be cleaned up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have been speaking to Billy about BLP concerns. Dropping by to point out that he has once again used sources improperly, I see that he has now been indefinitely blocked. Maybe he will take notice and exercise more caution in the future. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 23:58, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay now. Please explain this in very short words, since I am obviously stupid. I compared those two examples for almost 10 minutes before I saw anything that might possibly be considered close paraphrasing - the fact that the information was placed in the same chronological order. Are you suggesting that it is better to mess up chronological sequencing to avoid the suggestion of close paraphrasing? Because, to put it honestly, at least 95% of the editors on this project would not have considered this close paraphrasing - nor, given the fact that there is a logical sequence here (the order in which things happened) and different vocabulary, would academic or journalistic sources, provided there is adequate attribution. Risker (talk) 00:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Risker. :) I had left Nyttend a talkback after my last note, but I'm not sure if your question will be seen. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 01:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't look like close paraphrasing to me, but I do know that Billy has a history of it; see the WT:DYK archives... Ed[talk][majestic titan] 04
26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't look like it because the content that I removed isn't exactly what's quoted above: what I removed is significantly closer to the original than what's above. Nyttend (talk) 04:47, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yes, there's no doubt that Billy has a history of close paraphrasing issues. While the CCI has barely been touched, I've just documented there an issue flagged by another contributor. I did not look at the article at length, but grabbed the first tech match I saw...which turned out to be verbatim. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have glanced at several articles randomly from Billy's CCI. Leaving aside the ones based on deadlinks, the first one I looked at (Bryan Sharratt) has issues now documented at the talk page; it's blanked and listed at CP. The second one also had problems, although I'm not decided on the best approach to it. This is what makes Billy difficult to work with. He has some blatant problems, and a whole lot of stuff that pushes really hard against the borders. Take a look at this edit:
Prior to his Senate tenure, Dr. Hinton was among a dozen doctors who worked for passage of the state's chiropractic licensing act. Louisiana was the last of the fifty states to pass a chiropractic licensing act. Hinton was at the ceremony in 1974, when then Governor Edwin Washington Edwards signed the legislation. Hinton then served for nine years as a member of the Louisiana Board of Chiropractic Examiners and was designated “Chiropractor of the Year" in 1984 by his peers
Take a look at his source:
He was among a dozen doctors who worked diligently for passage of the state's chiropractic licensing act. Louisiana was the last state in the U.S. to pass a chiropractic licensing act, and Dr. Hinton was among those on hand when the governor signed the law in 1974. Dr. Hinton then served for nine years as a member of the Louisiana Board of Chiropractic Examiners. He was named "Chiropractor of the Year" in 1984 by the Chiropractic Association of Louisiana.
I've bolded to highlight only actual duplication. Obviously, the content surrounding it doesn't deviate that far from the source. Glancing at the duplication detector, it seems there may be a couple of more passages of concern for literal duplication, though not much. It's a short source.
His work is full of this kind of stuff. It needs to be cleaned up, obviously, but the best approach to getting it cleaned is difficult to determine. When we encounter an isolated paragraph in one of his articles like this, can we assume that the rest of it is okay, that he only failed to rewrite that passage? Many of his articles draw on offline sources or deadlinks. What do we do with those?
I have seen people with worse copyright problems than Billy come back to be productive editors, learning to rewrite to the extent expected by the community. One of the problems with Billy, however, is that Billy does not seem to work with other people. He denies issues and generally does not seem to respond when specific problems are pointed out to him (during his last ANI incident, an uninvolved administrator told him to respond to close paraphrasing concerns at one point, and he did not). I have not had extensive dealing with him myself. But in terms of my recent interactions with him, I told him plainly why he could not use the source that Nyttend had been removing. He put the information back with a new source that was reliable--but did not support his information. Nyttend quite rightly picked up on this and removed it again. I pointed out to him that it was still not WP:BLP compliant, so he put the material back with two new sources which only partially supported his information. I gather this is not unusual behavior for him.
I think at this point, we may need to ask the community to look at his pattern at ANI and to figure out what should be done here. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 11:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should be prepared to deal with socking next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy - where did socking come from? MRG - I'm thinking an ANI is best too, as a block right now would be brought there anyway. Ed[talk][majestic titan] 17:34, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ed, I'm afraid you've missed a major development. :) He was idefinitely blocked by another admin yesterday. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 17:37, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. My bad. :-) Well then, I'll watch ANI for any more developments! Hope you're still well (and enjoying your WMF role!) Ed[talk][majestic titan] 17:54, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh
Talk page access needs to be revoked: [1]. MER-C 08:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, dear. :/ I've given him a warning, as it is possible that he does not know that this is forbidden outside of article space. Somehow. We'll see what happens now. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:10, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One of the things that might help is taking the examples above and showing how to present the information present in the sources without crossing the line into close paraphrasing. I still fail to understand how those warned or blocked for this sort of thing will ever make progress if they are not shown with at least one example. Too often the procedure is to show two texts side by side and say "text A is too close to text B". There is very rarely any attempt to produce text C and say "this is one way it could be done better". My theory is that this involves people having to actually write text C and that would be too much effort, or they realise that it is harder than it looks to produce text C. I've also rarely seen editors who are warned about this produce a hypothetical text C and ask if that is OK, as oftentimes the editor giving the warning has moved on and is not prepared to follow through with the educational part of this (leaving warnings is easy, educating someone in how to write is harder). Is anyone willing to try explaining how the information in the two examples above can (if it should) be incorporated into the relevant articles? And not just hand-waving examples, but actual text. I also suspect the problem comes down to people thinking that editing from one source in isolation is OK. Really, you need to bring in other sources to remedy the problems that arise from using too much from a single source, and teaching that is (again) hard. But if no-one makes the effort to explain that, and only issues warning, things won't improve. Carcharoth (talk) 17:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I've written text C for people many, many times, but it is difficult to work with somebody who does not acknowledge that there is a problem. Even with the relatively clearcut and simple issue with BLP sourcing, I have had some challenge making myself understood in my recent efforts with him before and after his block. :/ I'm not sure if he yet understands that issue. Having limited time myself, I give it to people who are receptive. I'm happy to try to work with him if somebody can convince him that work is needed. (That said, I don't have time to mentor him, to make sure that he does not continue with issues. As I mentioned last time (I think) we talked about this, I've done this before, and it can take me hours to review their articles. I just don't have those hours at the moment.) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 18:05, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh sure, I know you take the time to write text C, but others don't. I do sometimes suggest it, but the reaction is usually for people to insist it is not their responsibility and to then walk away. That is not unreasonable. What I do find unreasonable is when people warn an editor and then (when that editor takes the time to rewrite the text), to not follow up and say "yes, that is better" or "no, try again". It is failing on the educational side of things, as I said. And I should have made it clearer that the above was a general gripe, not specifically about Billy Hathorn who, as you have found out, doesn't really engage with issues or only does so minimally. My view is that when there is disagreement about how to write properly from a source, all those involved should be willing to discuss it until everyone is on the same page, not just argue for a bit and then depart still not agreeing on how to write articles. That perpetuates problems, rather than solving them. Carcharoth (talk) 20:52, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I came off defensive there. :) Truth is, I feel guilty. It bothers me that I don't have more time to pitch in on this than I currently do. But honestly I was on the verge of burning out on this work when the position I'm currently occupying was advertised. I needed something else to focus on for a while, I think, if I'm to continue. :/ My intentions are that when my contract expires I'll get back into the old swing. Then I won't have to feel guilty anymore. :)
I have put some thought into this since my last response (although due to user error have only just noticed that you wrote me back), and I was actually thinking perhaps we could make use of Wikiversity to host a tutorial more complete than our close paraphrasing essay? I'm not sure if Wikiversity would allow this, but it seems to me that it would be legitimately instructive material to show people, step by step, how to properly paraphrase. What do you think? --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting idea (really, the venue matters less than the end product - getting people to improve their writing skills if they genuinely are interested in doing so). I've had time to think on aspects of this as well, and my main concern is that as far as I can tell for borderline (and not so borderline) cases it is perfectly legitimate for users to disagree over whether a particular text is close paraphrasing of a source or not. So my question is what happens at that point? If an editor thinks something doesn't cross the line into close paraphrasing, should they say so (and risk a big argument), or should they give way and rewrite a bit to satisfy whoever they are disagreeing with? Is it more damaging to end up with people rewriting things they don't need to rewrite, or more damaging to have people think something is OK when it isn't? Both are wrong, but while I see lots of effort made to avoid the latter (identified problems not being addressed), I don't see much effort being made to avoid the former (people carrying out unnecessary rewrites). Carcharoth (talk) 22:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really say how things are handled outside of WP:CP when there is disagreement, but I have seen people disagree about this before. Generally, if two or more contributors are disagreeing about the paraphrase at the talk page, the uninvolved admin who handles the CP listing will make the call. And when I am the admin making that call, if I think it's borderline, I will usually round up another admin or two who work copyright to help look at the content to make the decision.
Our copyright policy is written conservatively; the passage that tends to generate more work for me is this one: "Never use materials that infringe the copyrights of others. This could create legal liabilities and seriously hurt Wikipedia. If in doubt, write the content yourself, thereby creating a new copyrighted work which can be included in Wikipedia without trouble." (I link to WP:C not because I think you haven't read it, but because I am required to attribute. :D) Because of this passage, if there is significant good faith concern about paraphrase (meaning that it is not clearly beyond reason), I would sooner help rewrite it myself than dismiss it as unwarranted. It's all connected to the exemption doctrine policy, really. The big difference here is that, unlike with a picture of Spiderman, we almost always do have the option of creating free text. :) I have myself created new text to replace close paraphrasing concerns that I thought very tenuous. I don't use {{cclean}} on the talk; I don't rev delete; I don't in any way suggest the content is a copyright violation in my edit summary. I usually just note that I am "revising to separate further from source" or something like that.
Certainly if somebody thinks something is not a close paraphrase, they should say so. How they say so matters, though, just as much as it matters how people who think (or know) there is a problem approach it. I'd really like to see diplomacy and consideration on all sides of the copyright equation. We should approach the issue thoughtfully and try to keep emotions down. I think our best chance of creating a harmonious community, conscious of copyright issues and in agreement as to what constitutes acceptable content, will come in eliminating drama and shame from the equation insofar as humanly possible. I try to "assume good faith" to the breaking point on this issue, but I may have a natural advantage there in that in my professional career I have worked with people in person who would have seemed deliberately obtuse if I had not known them well enough to know better. Some people - even those whose paraphrases are blatantly unacceptable - simply have a hard time getting that. I can understand that even highly intelligent people can have blind spots in certain areas; spatial intelligence is challenging for me. But just because I'm not naturally inclined to be a great architect doesn't mean I'm not great with other areas. :) But by the same token, we don't want to burn people who try to help identify copyright problems if they are wrong; they, too, are trying to improve the project and need to be kindly brought in line with community standards. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 11:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like I got here too late for this one. :( I'm sorry. I usually catch up the talk page earlier than this, but it seems like I missed some notes the last time I edited it and it had been relatively quiet after, so I didn't notice that these were up here until I came in to answer notes today.
That complicated explanation aside, I'm afraid I wouldn't have been able to help anyway. Non-free images are not my area, since my work outside of Wikipedia has been largely limited to text based concerns and since some of the rules we use about what we can and cannot have seem kind of subjective to me. I leave that to editors with a better feel for the community's stance. Ordinarily, I would have brought up concerns of that kind myself at WP:NFCR, but once it's at FfD I'm not sure what you could do. You could ask at WT:NFC, but that risks concerns about canvassing. :P
Now that they are deleted, the best idea might be to ask for clarification on the general principles at WT:NFC. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't really know what to say. :/ I'm not that familiar with ships and don't really grok why we cannot get free images of these ships. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Still need help
Hello again Moonriddengirl,
It appears that I'm not going anywhere with Paul Polansky's page. I did message Mtking and he replied that he objected to one sentence which I re-phrased into a totally neutral one. Then I asked him what else I need to modify or remove and he hasn't replied. Can "you" do something about it? Do you think the small article about Paul's still bias? Anything else I need to do or edit until that tag's gone? I hope you can help me out! Many thanks!
Hi. I'm sorry for the delay in my response. I'm afraid my talk page has not had much activity lately, and I'm only just now catching up. I see that since you left the note another user has reviewed the article and removed the tags. Typically, I do not like to remove tags placed by other contributors unless I am (or have time to become) an involved editor in the page. This is why I had suggested earlier that if you could not come to agreement with Mtking, you consider asking for feedback at a noticeboard. In this case, I would have gone to WP:COIN or WP:NPOVN. This attracts contributors who are familiar with problems related to COI or NPOV editing who may be able to assist you. If you run into problems in the future, you may want to consider that avenue for assistance. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much Moonriddengirl for your help through out, finally it has been removed. Btw, I'm from Wilmington, NC but currently in Europe working. I will try to learn more about editing on wikipedia and try to become like you if possible! Puregoldxxxx (talk) 19:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Annefield Permissions
Thanks for the thorough review! You may have noticed two authors on the National Register submission -- I am the second author. This problem did occur to me, and I was not sure of the "public domain" attributes of a National Register submission. Nevertheless, I am friends with Mr. Smith, and I am certain I can obtain permission from him.--AVirginian (talk) 17:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank u
Hi,
Thank you so much for taking out time to review my article and explaining me in such a detail.I have learnt a lot . I will need ur guidance in future.
I'm happy to have been able to help. I will be glad to offer you guidance in the future, time permitting. :) I do tend to be occupied with copyright cleanup when I'm volunteering. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I replied
here, thanks for your reply. =) Jesanj (talk) 18:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. :) I've followed up. Please feel free to tap me here if you need my attention again. I can't keep up with my watchlist these days as well as I'd like to! --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:39, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actor and Character names (TV shows like Heartbeat)
I'm slowly restoring episode summaries for Heartbeat (summarising after personally watching).
Are actor/character names sufficiently factual as to be non-copyrightable, or will we get into trouble if we lift the actor/character names off places like IMDB?
The TV program itself isn't much use - they don't credit minor actors' names. Nick4mony (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. :) Thank you very much for working on this! The names of actors involved in a show is strictly factual information, and you can use that no matter where you get it from. The only time you might run into trouble is if there is creativity in the way that somebody is displaying them. For instance, if somebody is using their own descriptions of the characters. Taking them from the IMDb should be fine. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the info. I'll start plugging in the various names over the next few weeks (and "refactoring" - see it's talk page). Nick4mony (talk) 13:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A glitch in the system?
Hello again MRG,
I am not sure if you are the one to approach on this matter, but here' goes... On the Stephen Decatur page I have used the 'notes' tag i.e. {{#tag:ref|...text,text,text...|group="Note"}} which, when inserted into a line of text generates a note in a section near the bottom of the page. A reference ( <ref> ... </ref> ) can also be added to the note, which generates a reference number within that note. This was done, and with no hitches, however, as of yesterday the notes no longer show a ref number but instead shows a line of strange looking characters in place of the ref number. I checked another page where this was done and the same problem exists there. Apparently there is a glitch or software problem occurring somewhere. Any ideas what happened? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you knew that one, Ed. :) I'd been told there were glitches with 1.18, but I wouldn't have known this specific issue was among them! --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just some more feed back 'for your records' -- The problem has apparently been fixed. No more 'Hieroglyphics' in place of a ref number. Only ref numbers embedded in the notes tag turned up this way. When I went 'back in history' before the glitch(?) had surfaced on one of the effected pages, it too would show the same problem. In any event, the problem is now 'history' so apparently it wasn't anything that couldn't be fixed with 'a pair of pliers and a screwdriver' (haha!). -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to hear it's been repaired. :) There were apparently a whole lot of issues with 1.18; I'm sure those guys were busy! --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
CCI
Hi MRG - I've been slowly working my way through Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20110912, and I'm down to just one article that I don't know what to do with (it's nowhere near my area of interest/expertise). Would you want to check to make sure I'm doing everything properly, and perhaps either taking care of or telling me how to deal with the last article so that this CCI can be closed? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 18:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. :) I've done the necessary mop-up on both. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're quite welcome, and thank you for completing the finishing paperwork! Another question - I've started on Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/GiW. The text in the article Airspace Surveillance and Control Command (Lithuania) comes from this website, however, I can't find the tables in the article on that website, and don't know where the contributor got that information from. Because the text, which makes up the far majority of this article, is a blatant copyvio (and has been since the start), should I tag it with {{db-copyvio}}, or should I blank the offending text, leaving the tables and tag with {{subst:copyvio}}? Dana boomer (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe OTRS permission is verified for this site in ticket:2011040610015669. Better double check. MER-C 12:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
MER-C is right; all text from kam.lt is licensed under CC-By-SA. So while this one is a copyright problem, because it isn't attributed, it can be fixed by using {{CCBYSASource}} in the "reference" section of the article and adding an OTRS template to the talk. Which I'll do right now. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thank you! It looks like a good chunk of this user's work was copied from that website, so knowing that it's OTRS verified will make things easier. Dana boomer (talk) 13:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I tried it for myself at Military Police in Lithuania and associated talk page. Feel free to yell at me if I screwed anything up. If I end up doing more CCI work, would it be beneficial for me to apply for OTRS rights? (I'm not sure if "OTRS rights" is even the correct phrasing, so out of the loop am I on that aspect of WP!) Dana boomer (talk) 13:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That looks great to me. :) OTRS doesn't come up that often in CCI, so it isn't really necessary, but it's always an option if you want to do OTRS work. :D The OTRS admins operate independently of any specific project and they select which applicants to accept. If you do apply for OTRS work, they'll undoubtedly expect you to put some time into it beyond just checking tickets for this kind of thing. --Moonriddengirl(talk) 13:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah well, probably not something I need then. Do you happen to know if there are any other OTRS tags associated with this account/CCI? I have found pages with copyvios from this site and this one. Is there any central listing of OTRS tags (other than in the OTRS system) where I can find this information out for myself? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 17:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's no central listing of OTRS tags, but I think we can safely assume that there are no other tickets associated with it. I've looked at the listing for this one, and I see that Verno mentioned this specific ticket in the "background" section. This is an unusual case; I've not seen a CCI that had this particular issue before. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tagged a file [2] for WP:CSD as looking at the FUR provided, it was completely at odds with the copyright statement on the website it was taken from. Looking at other images uploaded by User:Flyingalbatross he is claiming images as coming from press releases for promotional purposes. Looking at the website link, this does't appear to be the case. Am I wrong in tagging these or do all of the images violate copyright. There is an all rights reserved statment on the websites concerned. Wee Curry Monstertalk 12:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think you raise a valid point there; the licensing tag used does not seem to be supported by the actual display of the images. Whether or not the images can be supported by fair use with a different licensing tag is another matter. I'm not really all that familiar with Wikipedia's standards on allowance of non-free images for ships, but it makes no sense to me why we could not get a free image of one of those sailing around.
It sounds like a fine idea to tag them for review. If you haven't, please make sure you explain to the uploader the importance of using accurate tags when claiming fair use and making sure that the use of the images meets WP:NFC in all particulars. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 12:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As you may have noticed i work quite closely with User talk:Jacobisq. It is best if he is able to clean things up as he knows the material better than anybody and i'm sure his work was done entirely in good faith. If he is unable to help then I think I should be able to help in his place as a second best option. Anyway, i wait and see how things develop.--Penbat (talk) 14:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did not notice that you work quite closely with him, but I'm delighted to hear that you are willing to help. :) As I said at his talk page, this is a really unusual situation. We don't really have a procedure in place for this. And I agree with you that his work was done entirely in good faith; I would not wish to discourage him from continuing to work on Wikipedia. If he does not return within a week or so, would you be willing to start looking into his articles for this issue? If so, I'll be happy to generate a list of them. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Moonriddengirl, another editor asked me for advice on the use of a magazine cover as an illustration in a BLP. I'm unsure whether the fair use criteria are fulfilled in this case or not – the BLP subject is shown on the cover, together with some of her work, and the (now defunct) magazine's coverage of her is briefly discussed in the text. Could you have a look? The relevant talk page thread is Talk:Kelly_Wearstler#Domino cover, and the image can be seen in this article version. Best, --JN466 19:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen keen misgivings about that in terms of WP:NFC. I've weighed in there. :/ --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for stopping by. :) --JN466 11:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus
Hey MRG! A little help please. I have always thought that during a discussion the more people that agree with something, that's the consensus and that's what the page will be like. However, after some disagreements with a user I have read a little more into it. And I see that if we can't agree, a 3O is needed, but my question is what happens next? If the user disagrees with the 3O user etc. Thanks. Jayy008 (talk) 19:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Probable copyvio - can you and your team find the original?
I CSD tagged Supply chain engineering as a copyvio with the note that I couldn't find the original; see what you think. Particularly bearing in mind the edit summary which accompanied the first paste-in ( 18:03, 4 September 2011 Akhilsukhija (talk | contribs) (9,958 bytes) (The page refers to a brief on Supply chain engineering its methodology and definitions) ) Just to emphasise - the first edit was putting up 9,958 bytes.
I've dropped a short note onto Ronhjones' talk page about this one. Fing is, though, fing is ... I know this has to be a copyvio. And someone needs to be able to track it down, and I don't know where to start with it, except to say that as it "refers to a brief", that's most likely where it came from. Can you help? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 03:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your gut instincts are good there. :) Here's some basic detective steps I follow. When I see a massive foundational chunk of text like that where an editor continued working after, I follow him to see what changes he made. Doing so highlights this significant change. If you look down towards the bottom, we see that his source is German. Happily, a search for the German term takes me to de Wikipedia. This is a translation of that article, but it's only an attribution issue. I can repair that and speak to the contributor about it. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, if you encounter this in the future, the thing to do is tag the talk page {{Cv-unsure}}, which tag lets people know that you have concerns about the copyright status and then to go ahead and ask the contributor as you did. :) You don't want to leave it unmarked at all in case your instincts are on the mark (as they were here), but G12s are only appropriate for obvious copyright problems, and we do have to know where the content came from for that. :) --Moonriddengirl(talk) 10:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]