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::::::::::::To @[[User:Researcher1988|Researcher1988]] 1) I refer you to the wiki pages I linked to, showing that there have historically been a wide variety of Zoroastrian sects. I'm not sure why you think it is uniform as Zoroastrianism [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FRANAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ViewAPI&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=at%20different%20times.%20snapshots%20of%20the%20religion&f=false has changed a lot over its existence]. Older versions of the [https://www.academia.edu/62728102/Zoroastrian_Influence_on_Old_Testament_Monotheism_and_Eschatology_A_Scriptural_and_Sociological_Analysis%7Ctheir holy book are polytheist], 2) [[Manichaeism]] combines the teachings of [[Zoroastrianism]], but it is not the strongest of the examples I've given. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Manichaeism Mani saw himself as a prophet in the line of Zor]. 3) [[Mazdakism]]'s wiki page terms it "an offshoot of [[Zoroastrianism]]", and it is part of the [[Zoroastrianism|Zoroastrian]] series on Wikipedia [https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100142767 and by Oxford] |
::::::::::::To @[[User:Researcher1988|Researcher1988]] 1) I refer you to the wiki pages I linked to, showing that there have historically been a wide variety of Zoroastrian sects. I'm not sure why you think it is uniform as Zoroastrianism [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FRANAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ViewAPI&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=at%20different%20times.%20snapshots%20of%20the%20religion&f=false has changed a lot over its existence]. Older versions of the [https://www.academia.edu/62728102/Zoroastrian_Influence_on_Old_Testament_Monotheism_and_Eschatology_A_Scriptural_and_Sociological_Analysis%7Ctheir holy book are polytheist], 2) [[Manichaeism]] combines the teachings of [[Zoroastrianism]], but it is not the strongest of the examples I've given. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Manichaeism Mani saw himself as a prophet in the line of Zor]. 3) [[Mazdakism]]'s wiki page terms it "an offshoot of [[Zoroastrianism]]", and it is part of the [[Zoroastrianism|Zoroastrian]] series on Wikipedia [https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100142767 and by Oxford] |
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::::::::::::@[[User:Wikaviani|Wikaviani]] I'm sorry I cannot read most of your sources, but I am a little sceptical that Zoroastrianism is partly European as it is very Persian. I also have a variety of sources that I have given before, which clearly say that it is not monotheistic but that it became more so over time. [https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/744081?redirectedFrom=PDF&login=false Time is a huge factor in this discussion, which needs to be addressed]. [[User:TiggyTheTerrible|Tiggy The Terrible]] ([[User talk:TiggyTheTerrible|talk]]) 08:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
::::::::::::@[[User:Wikaviani|Wikaviani]] I'm sorry I cannot read most of your sources, but I am a little sceptical that Zoroastrianism is partly European as it is very Persian. I also have a variety of sources that I have given before, which clearly say that it is not monotheistic but that it became more so over time. [https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/744081?redirectedFrom=PDF&login=false Time is a huge factor in this discussion, which needs to be addressed]. [[User:TiggyTheTerrible|Tiggy The Terrible]] ([[User talk:TiggyTheTerrible|talk]]) 08:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Zoroastrianism has not been changed over centuries, and it seems you can't even comprehend those pages. |
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:::::::::::::you don't even know the difference between Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism. |
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:::::::::::::why you keep repeating your false beliefs which are based on misinformation and ignorance? [[User:Researcher1988|Researcher1988]] ([[User talk:Researcher1988|talk]]) 09:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:01, 11 March 2024
Zoroastrianism was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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GA Reassessment
Zoroastrianism
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result: Delisted, 24 citation needed tags (t · c) buidhe 00:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
The prose for this article is not always clear and concise, and large chunks of this article are left uncited. Therefore, I believe delisting this article should be considered. 777burger user talk contribs 03:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Zoroastrianism is monolatrous, not monotheistic.
There are many deities in Zoroastrianism so it cannot be considered monotheistic. HonestAnglo44 (talk) 19:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- There are multiple deities indeed, and Mazdaism is known more as a dualistic religion rather than a monotheistic one. However, one may argue and say it’s monotheistic because Ahura Mazda (aka Ashura) is the supreme being with no equivalent evil force or deity.
- If you’d like, you can provide some sources that can attest to your statement and an editor may include it somewhere in the article! :)
- WikiAmerican1 (talk) 05:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism passed through both a monotheistic and a more dualistic phase. It succeeded a prior Iranian pantheon, many of whose entities were internalized within Zoroastrianism as angels and demons, from where they influenced the Abrahamic tradition. I'm not aware of it ever being a monolatry though. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:28, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic, not Monolatric. There is Only one Single Uncreated Deity in Zoroastrianism. The Angels should Not be Confused With Deities. Researcher1988 (talk) 10:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- I believe there may be various levels of understanding due to how Zoroastrianism changed / was perceived over time. Ahura Mazda, the creator of the universe, and Angra Mainyu, the opposing force to Ahura Mazda. This is why it’s seen as a dualistic religion. WikiAmerican1 (talk) 14:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- Judging by this source, it may actually be polytheistic. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I believe there may be various levels of understanding due to how Zoroastrianism changed / was perceived over time. Ahura Mazda, the creator of the universe, and Angra Mainyu, the opposing force to Ahura Mazda. This is why it’s seen as a dualistic religion. WikiAmerican1 (talk) 14:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Scholars note that the Zor faith changed over time
I've added a scholarly work that explains that Zoroastrian has morphed over the centuries. I feel this justifies adding a note to a later section on influence towards other faiths, as it seems credible that this can go in either direction. I feel that the main lead should be broken up into explanatory sections so that people can find what they are looking for more easily. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hey Researcher1988. Could you explain more about why you removed the line? The entire paragraph is uncited, so it's very hard to see why. I added it to increase neutrality, and I think it fits based on what we know of the Zor faith changing over time. Tiggy The Terrible (talk)
- @TiggyTheterrible , We know for certain that Zoroastrianism has influenced other religions and philosophies, But we don't know how it was influenced by other faiths and religions. adding a claim for increasing neutrality is not accepted. we should provide sources for every claim or important change. Researcher1988 (talk) 15:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 If that is the case, then we should remove that entire section as there are no citations. I notice you have already shunted my main edit down into the weeds. I feel this is a bit of a 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic' sort of move, since the leed is already as long as the rest of the article and features many other (uncited) claims that could well fit your same criteria. If you have no objections, I will proceed to create a section on the influences to and from that religion tomorrow. I think there is good reason to believe Zor has been influenced by other religions. Likely much more so than it has influenced others. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism had influenced other religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But Those religions had no influence over Zoroastrianism. Because they were created centuries after Zoroastrianism and there is no evidence for your claim. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher198 Zor being older doesn;t mean a lot to be honest. The Zor faith was entirely oral for most of that time, and wasn't written down until the 6th century. The oldest copy of their book is nearly 14th, and we know Zor has also changed radically over time, but Christianity/Judaism have not. There is no evidence that Zor influenced Judaism, etc, but plenty pointing to Zor being influenced by other faiths. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- In addition, I've found sources that seem to counter a lot of the claims in the article. For example this Analysis found no influence on Judaism by the Zor faith. And, indeed: "Chapter four found that Zoroastrianism has a unique theistic doctrine which combines dualism, polytheism and pantheism. Therefore, Zoroastrianism should stop being referred to as the oldest monotheistic religion. Chapters five and nine surprisingly revealed how little influence orthodox Zoroastrianism had within Achaemenid Persia. The implication of this is that a reflection may be needed in Achaemenid Studies regarding what this discovery means for other aspects of Achaemenid history". Tiggy The Terrible (talk) Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 14:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher198 Zor being older doesn;t mean a lot to be honest. The Zor faith was entirely oral for most of that time, and wasn't written down until the 6th century. The oldest copy of their book is nearly 14th, and we know Zor has also changed radically over time, but Christianity/Judaism have not. There is no evidence that Zor influenced Judaism, etc, but plenty pointing to Zor being influenced by other faiths. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism had influenced other religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But Those religions had no influence over Zoroastrianism. Because they were created centuries after Zoroastrianism and there is no evidence for your claim. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 If that is the case, then we should remove that entire section as there are no citations. I notice you have already shunted my main edit down into the weeds. I feel this is a bit of a 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic' sort of move, since the leed is already as long as the rest of the article and features many other (uncited) claims that could well fit your same criteria. If you have no objections, I will proceed to create a section on the influences to and from that religion tomorrow. I think there is good reason to believe Zor has been influenced by other religions. Likely much more so than it has influenced others. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- @TiggyTheterrible , We know for certain that Zoroastrianism has influenced other religions and philosophies, But we don't know how it was influenced by other faiths and religions. adding a claim for increasing neutrality is not accepted. we should provide sources for every claim or important change. Researcher1988 (talk) 15:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Shortening the Lead
According to Wikipedia the Lead section should be short and to the point. I think the current section has gotten out of hand, and needs to be divided and trimmed. I will move a section or two and see if there is consensus. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Bad decision. Because that section is in fact a short review of Zoroastrian history and its better to be in the lead, not history section which discusses Zoroastrian history in detail. and it was in the introduction for a long time. your change is unnecessary. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- @TiggyTheTerrible
- That Section is a very important part of the Introduction and a short review of Zoroastrianism's history. It must be in the lead, in order for introduction section to remain complete. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 Not really sure how it's a bad idea. Even without it, that section is a bit of an essay. Wiki style guide makes it seem like the lead should be a about a paragraph or so, and as assessable as possible. Essentially just defining what the thing is. Even after my edit, it goes far too deep in the weeds and mentions academic theories that are spoeculation at best. Tiggy The Terrible (talk)
- "Wiki style guide makes it seem like the lead should be a about a paragraph or so". Hmmmm. Not sure where you got that idea from. According to the Manual of Style: Lead section length,
As a general guideline—but not absolute rule—the lead should usually be no longer than four paragraphs.
Most featured articles have a lead length of about three paragraphs, containing 10 to 18 sentences, or 250 to 400 words.
- There is a table there you can check out for more guidance. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Okay thank you, and that is fair enough. Though I do think that claim that it "may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems" needs to be cited or removed as it's controversial. If not, I'd say it needs the addendum "or been influenced by them". Since the other citation there says the Zor faith has radically changed over time, and the text itself is uncited, it seems more reasonable than not. Especially as the faith was entirely oral until about the 6th centaury. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Per Manual of Style/Lead section citations,
The verifiability policy states that all quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it.
- Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 Would that not mean that the statement that Zor has influenced other religions needs a citation, or to be removed, since it doesn't have an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it and it is being challenged? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:24, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Aren't you challenging it? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 20:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 I'm a little confused here. It needs a citation, regardless of if I'm challenging it. But I can say I'm challenging that section if that is what is required for wiki protocol. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- No, info in the lead does not necessarily need citations because it is basically a summary of the contents of the body of the article, which should contain said citations. I cited the relevant policy, I don't know if you read it. But given that you reasonably challenged some of the info then it needs citation per said policy.
You would need to provide reasons for your other challenge though (as you did before), because just trying to bypass policy and challenging any lead to force editors to place citations in the leads is not how things work and would be kindda negatively disruptive. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 22:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 I do think such a controversial claim does need to be cited, and I thank Researcher1988 for adding one. Though, reading it, I feel it could be stronger as the authors seem to assume Zor influenced other religions simply because it claims to be older. Which assumes it has remained unchanged, which we know it has not. However, I've added a contrary source as well for balance, and I believe I have more perspectives I can offer on this. With a little looking, I may find one that says the influence is bidirectional. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think this user should add his link in the section: "Relation with other religions," and leave the lead alone. lead is perfect in its current form. but there is a whole section which discusses Zoroastrianism influence on other religions, and these Subjects belong to that section. Researcher1988 (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 While I agree the section about Abrahamic faiths should include a section indicating other academics disagree, it's well known most people only read the lead. That means the lead must also be modified to reflect the facts in that source in order to prevent the spread of misinformation, rather than only giving one side. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- The lead was in this form for a long time, and there is no reason to change it to other forms. the Zoroastrian influence on other religions and philosophical systems is well stablished and there is a consensus among scholars that Zoroastrianism had influenced major religions of the world, so it is not misinformation.
- there is a whole section about "Zoroastrian relation with other religions," which is dedicated to this subject. Researcher1988 (talk) 15:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 There are quite a few sources in that section that throw doubt on the claim. I have added some content there, including quotes from existing sources. I hope it is to your liking. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 16:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'd also like to note that one of your primary sources literally calls the evidence "circumstantial". Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 16:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 There are quite a few sources in that section that throw doubt on the claim. I have added some content there, including quotes from existing sources. I hope it is to your liking. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 16:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 While I agree the section about Abrahamic faiths should include a section indicating other academics disagree, it's well known most people only read the lead. That means the lead must also be modified to reflect the facts in that source in order to prevent the spread of misinformation, rather than only giving one side. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think this user should add his link in the section: "Relation with other religions," and leave the lead alone. lead is perfect in its current form. but there is a whole section which discusses Zoroastrianism influence on other religions, and these Subjects belong to that section. Researcher1988 (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 I do think such a controversial claim does need to be cited, and I thank Researcher1988 for adding one. Though, reading it, I feel it could be stronger as the authors seem to assume Zor influenced other religions simply because it claims to be older. Which assumes it has remained unchanged, which we know it has not. However, I've added a contrary source as well for balance, and I believe I have more perspectives I can offer on this. With a little looking, I may find one that says the influence is bidirectional. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- No, info in the lead does not necessarily need citations because it is basically a summary of the contents of the body of the article, which should contain said citations. I cited the relevant policy, I don't know if you read it. But given that you reasonably challenged some of the info then it needs citation per said policy.
- Thinker78 I'm a little confused here. It needs a citation, regardless of if I'm challenging it. But I can say I'm challenging that section if that is what is required for wiki protocol. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Aren't you challenging it? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 20:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 Would that not mean that the statement that Zor has influenced other religions needs a citation, or to be removed, since it doesn't have an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it and it is being challenged? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:24, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Okay thank you, and that is fair enough. Though I do think that claim that it "may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems" needs to be cited or removed as it's controversial. If not, I'd say it needs the addendum "or been influenced by them". Since the other citation there says the Zor faith has radically changed over time, and the text itself is uncited, it seems more reasonable than not. Especially as the faith was entirely oral until about the 6th centaury. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 Not really sure how it's a bad idea. Even without it, that section is a bit of an essay. Wiki style guide makes it seem like the lead should be a about a paragraph or so, and as assessable as possible. Essentially just defining what the thing is. Even after my edit, it goes far too deep in the weeds and mentions academic theories that are spoeculation at best. Tiggy The Terrible (talk)
Researcher1988, the consensus policy states,
Consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental method of decision making, and involves an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 I'm very confused by your editing. You said the lead was "perfect", but now you've added a large section of text to it that contradicts one of the primary claims of the article. I.e. that the Zor faith is dualistic. It would help if you spoke to us directly about what you're trying to do, otherwise I will have to assume you are merely territorial about the lead and are simply trying to push a particular angle on it. I am going to have to insist that we modify the section about influence on other religions to take into account scepticism in your own sources, and other sources on the page. As of yet, I've seen nothing that actually shows proof the influence is in the direction described, and several items that cast doubt. The claims about monotheism seem directed at me spesifically, and seem argumentative. The entire angle is very strange as we have sources showing that monotheism is merely one strain of the Zor faith, and not the oldest. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 12:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- I did not add anything new to the lead. I added a Text to "Theology" Section, which is supported by the source a cited.
- I think this user @TiggyTheTerrible, is violating the Wikipedia's Rules. Researcher1988 (talk) 14:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- How? Thinker78 (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- he is using talk page for expressing his personal views. Researcher1988 (talk) 23:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988, @TiggyTheTerrible it is most useful to try to not lobe accusations against each other because it derails the discussion, which should focus objectively and collegially on the content—even if there is disagreement or opposing positions. I advise reading the consensus policy. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 Apologies. I checked the history of the page to see what you did, and it looked like you had edited the lead so I was confused. You are right. Sorry. You edited Theology. However, I think the edit needs to be changed as there are multiple strains of Zor, and many of the historical ones are not monotheistic. We at least need to note that your own source says "Zoroastrianism started as an Indo-Iranian polytheistic religion" Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Guys, I don't want to sound overbearing but why don't you try to sort out your dispute in the lead before jumping to other issues? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 Don't worry you're not being overbearing at all, and I like having a voice of moderation here. Your idea seems to be a good plan. I was editing the main article as I thought it made for a good compromise with Researcher1988 and avoid an edit war. However, it seems not to have gone over well despite my attempts to quote directly from their own sources. I'm not really sure what to do about this, and I don't want to come across as being the bad guy here. Without knowing what they think is wrong with what I wrote, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. However, I will try to make my edits as small as possible and see if that helps. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- I suggest, instead of changing the whole paragraphs and distorting the meaning and purpose of the texts, create your own paragraph. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Happy to help moderating. I suggest suspending edition and instead discussing to try reach a compromise. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 20:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you @Thinker78. I've made a very small and mostly aesthetic edit to see if that works. @Researcher1988, thank you for your suggestion. I am not trying to distort any of the text here. Only to quote the sources, which seem to agree that Zor is polytheistic. I take it you have no issues if I re-add sections I wrote myself? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is a consensus that Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic. so, in general, the article should express that view.
- if you believe otherwise, you should create your own paragraph and discuss that issue. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Very well. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988, why do you suggest creating a paragraph outright if you have opposite views? Wouldn't you revert the paragraph if you don't find it to your liking? Are you suggesting to create the paragraph in this talk page instead? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 20:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- I feel that the article could be so much more interesting if it were to be written in a back-and-forth style that shows off the breadth of scholarly thought on this subject; but it seems like everything I write is removed, neutered, or pushed to the bottom of the article. Even if I'm directly citing from @Researcher1988's own sources. I don't think I'm being unfair in wheat I've tried to add at all, but it seems even dividing the article into subsections is controversial. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you @Thinker78. I've made a very small and mostly aesthetic edit to see if that works. @Researcher1988, thank you for your suggestion. I am not trying to distort any of the text here. Only to quote the sources, which seem to agree that Zor is polytheistic. I take it you have no issues if I re-add sections I wrote myself? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thinker78 Don't worry you're not being overbearing at all, and I like having a voice of moderation here. Your idea seems to be a good plan. I was editing the main article as I thought it made for a good compromise with Researcher1988 and avoid an edit war. However, it seems not to have gone over well despite my attempts to quote directly from their own sources. I'm not really sure what to do about this, and I don't want to come across as being the bad guy here. Without knowing what they think is wrong with what I wrote, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. However, I will try to make my edits as small as possible and see if that helps. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Guys, I don't want to sound overbearing but why don't you try to sort out your dispute in the lead before jumping to other issues? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 Apologies. I checked the history of the page to see what you did, and it looked like you had edited the lead so I was confused. You are right. Sorry. You edited Theology. However, I think the edit needs to be changed as there are multiple strains of Zor, and many of the historical ones are not monotheistic. We at least need to note that your own source says "Zoroastrianism started as an Indo-Iranian polytheistic religion" Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988, @TiggyTheTerrible it is most useful to try to not lobe accusations against each other because it derails the discussion, which should focus objectively and collegially on the content—even if there is disagreement or opposing positions. I advise reading the consensus policy. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- he is using talk page for expressing his personal views. Researcher1988 (talk) 23:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- How? Thinker78 (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Researcher1988 I'm very confused by your editing. You said the lead was "perfect", but now you've added a large section of text to it that contradicts one of the primary claims of the article. I.e. that the Zor faith is dualistic. It would help if you spoke to us directly about what you're trying to do, otherwise I will have to assume you are merely territorial about the lead and are simply trying to push a particular angle on it. I am going to have to insist that we modify the section about influence on other religions to take into account scepticism in your own sources, and other sources on the page. As of yet, I've seen nothing that actually shows proof the influence is in the direction described, and several items that cast doubt. The claims about monotheism seem directed at me spesifically, and seem argumentative. The entire angle is very strange as we have sources showing that monotheism is merely one strain of the Zor faith, and not the oldest. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 12:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Minor Edits
I moved a link to an article which challenged Zoroastrian Influence on Judaism to the Original section about "influence on other religions," which actually discusses this subject, and reverted the lead to its original form, because the added text from the user @tiggytheterrible was not in accordance with the Article, the article does not mention that Zoroastrianism is not "monotheistic," and I think header is perfect in this current form. Researcher1988 (talk) 13:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow, @Researcher1988. The source is quite clear. "Like the rest of the Zoroastrian texts, the Old Avesta does not teach monotheism, and this severely undermines the argument of Zoroastrian Influence Theory, which sees Zoroastrianism as the source of the Bible’s monotheistic beliefs." Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 16:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Given that there is a revert, I advise reading about the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 21:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
warning against vandalism
I think there is a vandalism attempt on this page for some time. some user is trying to change former edits according to their personal views. I suggest greater care must be taken in protecting the page. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I have to point out that if the page is protected then you may be the one going to be left out from editing because of how many edits you have. Also, please read the vandalism policy to know what constitutes vandalism and what is not vandalism. Finally, we have an assume good faith guideline. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 18:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- I just try to protect the page from pointless edits that alter the purpose of paragraphs and concepts. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- According to the editing policy, I can point out to be cautious with major changes: discuss.
Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page. One editor's idea of what is not major or what is an improvement may be another editor's idea of a desecration.
- I just try to protect the page from pointless edits that alter the purpose of paragraphs and concepts. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Monotheism, polytheism, dualism
@Researcher1988 If you could just talk to me and explain your stance, and why it matters so much, that would be very helpful. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- it's you who should describe your stance to us. I just want to protect the article from meaningless and unhelpful edits.
- 1- There is a Consensus that Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic. the Article should not be misleading, and should express this consensus.
- 2- there is a Consensus that Zoroastrianism has influenced major religions and beliefs. the article should express such consensus. otherwise it would be misleading. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Researcher1988, it is a helpful to know your stance here. I'm not entirely sure that is actually the consensus because Britannica says it is actually a polytheistic religion that emphasises a central godhead. Sources that you have added also describe it as polytheistic. I have mentioned this before, but you did not reply. My stance is simply that the page should reflect the sources used on is, and the ones that are freely available. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Britannica does say that Zoroastrianism contains Both monotheistic and dualistic features. also, Britannica says that Zoroastrianism had influenced major religions.
- the articles that I cited, clearly demonstrate that the religion has an early form of Monotheism, that Zoroastrian Monotheism is unique to Zoroastrianism, and though it has dualistic features, still, it should be considered a monotheistic religion. (the articles says why.)
- finally, there is a general consensus that Zoroastrianism had influenced major religions, and there are a lot of articles to support this. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Both articles explicitly say it is rooted in polytheism. I have seen several articles claiming that it has influenced other religions, but also I've seen numerous saying it has not. I have yet to see the given reason that they think this. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Judaism is rooted in polytheism too.
- Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic, but it has its own exceptional form. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's correct, but I don't see it being especially relevant in any case. We aren't editing the Judaism article @Researcher1988. But I suspect you are trying to start an edit war with me, which is something you seem to have a history of. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- no, its you.
- you are trying to impose your personal views on this article. you are distorting whole paragraphs, you are changing and altering the original meaning of the texts and paragraphs, and creating meaningless titles which I see as vandalism. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 these are the views of people who you are personally citing. I'm just trying to interweave what I see as an interesting academic discussion into the article. However, I can't really hope to do anything if you simply revert everything without trying to discuss it or fully explain what you think is so wrong. Not when you don't seem willing to talk to me. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think, you are distorting my edits and altering its meaning, because you do not like what I post.
- the texts I posted, extensively talks about the "polytheism/dualism" problem, and debunks the misconceptions. your edits change the meaning and purpose of the article, which is unnecessary.
- I did not delete your edit, but added some extra content from the same sources you cited. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I'm sorry if you are offended by my edits, but I was trying to collaborate. I feel the section on monotheism/polytheism/dualism should give the different and varied perspectives as if discussing them with the reader. I don't feel the section is all that clear at the moment, which is likely because Zor is esoteric and doesn't fit neatly into any of the categories. I feel it would be best to give each option a small section, and make the case for each there. We should take care to define and be clear on them. Particularly as they can blur together somewhat, and because taking out dualism doesn't preclude the other two. It also really depends on which strain of Zor you mean, and at which point in its history. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- that section discusses the monotheism and the so called duality/polytheism problem. I think you didn't read it very well. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Why are you being rude? The section did not mention polytheism or dualism until a few days ago, and dualism is only one form that polytheism can take. The current version is, in my mind, far too negative towards dualism. Especially in light of the fact that the rest of the article, and all sources, seem to agree that the religion is dualist. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- that section discusses the monotheism and the so called duality/polytheism problem. I think you didn't read it very well. Researcher1988 (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I'm sorry if you are offended by my edits, but I was trying to collaborate. I feel the section on monotheism/polytheism/dualism should give the different and varied perspectives as if discussing them with the reader. I don't feel the section is all that clear at the moment, which is likely because Zor is esoteric and doesn't fit neatly into any of the categories. I feel it would be best to give each option a small section, and make the case for each there. We should take care to define and be clear on them. Particularly as they can blur together somewhat, and because taking out dualism doesn't preclude the other two. It also really depends on which strain of Zor you mean, and at which point in its history. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 these are the views of people who you are personally citing. I'm just trying to interweave what I see as an interesting academic discussion into the article. However, I can't really hope to do anything if you simply revert everything without trying to discuss it or fully explain what you think is so wrong. Not when you don't seem willing to talk to me. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that's correct, but I don't see it being especially relevant in any case. We aren't editing the Judaism article @Researcher1988. But I suspect you are trying to start an edit war with me, which is something you seem to have a history of. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Both articles explicitly say it is rooted in polytheism. I have seen several articles claiming that it has influenced other religions, but also I've seen numerous saying it has not. I have yet to see the given reason that they think this. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Researcher1988, it is a helpful to know your stance here. I'm not entirely sure that is actually the consensus because Britannica says it is actually a polytheistic religion that emphasises a central godhead. Sources that you have added also describe it as polytheistic. I have mentioned this before, but you did not reply. My stance is simply that the page should reflect the sources used on is, and the ones that are freely available. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
the articles I cited discusses the problem of dualism too.
besides, Zoroastrian dualism is not polytheism. because Ahriman is not worshipped. Researcher1988 (talk) 10:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 What about the other gods they worship, other than Ahriman? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- you have absolutely no knowledge of Zoroastrianism. Ahriman is not worshiped, he is the devil. Yazatas are Angels, they are created by Ahura Mazda, they are not gods. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 If you could slow down and listen, you would understand that that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. In order:
- Polytheism and Dualism are not the same thing.
- I am fully aware that Ahriman is not worshiped. However, he's not a devil figure. I.e. a created being, made by the father, who fell away from him via sin. Instead, he is considered a god of equal standing who acts in opposition. One god can only bring good, the other can only corrupt.
- My main point is that the section needs to address the concept of polytheism, and arguments made for dualism. Not that the section needs to be favourable to these arguments..
- What about Mithra and Tishtrya? They are zor gods.
- "Yazatas" is a word meaning "worthy of worship", and the Zor use it interchangeably with the word "gods". Now, I admit I'm not an expert on Zor. Neither are you. However, I've read numerous sources that agree that the worship of Yazatas makes the religion polytheistic, and that the oldest copies of their holy book are very polytheistic. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 17:42, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- - Ahriman is the devil figure. he is not a god. he is a destructive force. Zoroastrianism believes in one single creator god.
- -Yazatas are angels, created by Ahura Mazda. they obey the will of god, have limited power and act according to god's command. they are not independent beings.
- -the section already discussed these issues in detail, and debunks these arguments. I think it needs no extra content about these issues. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 The wiki pages for Mithra and Tishtrya, two of the Yazatas, literally call them gods. Polytheism is barely mentioned on the page at all, and nowhere within the theology section. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- -Those Wiki pages are wrong then.
- - yazatas are NOT gods. they are created by an uncreated deity. they have limited power and only obey god's command. but they are venerated in Zoroastrianism. This veneration is not against Ahura Mazda's Greatness or Godhood.
- - the section discusses these matters in detail. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 If the wiki page is wrong, then so is Britannica and every other source I've come across related to Mithras etc. Though there are so many strains of Zor I should probably ask which one you mean. I find it hard to understand why you are trying so hard to fit religion known for pantheism into the mould of one that isn't. Which section discusses these matters in detail? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- There is a general Consensus that Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic. it seems you don't want to read what was posted on this article which clearly discusses such matters. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Britannica seems to disagree Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Britannica states that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic.
- also:
- https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism
- "Arguably the world's first monotheistic faith..." Researcher1988 (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Then there's a contradiction here. the sources say two different things. Both that it's monotheistic, and that it's not and they go on to name other gods in the religion and say that they do have a pantheon but they focus worship on one central god. Other sources say that it is definitely not monotheistic in its origins, but became more so. Others that it never really has been. So why are you getting so angry at me? This is something I think should be discussed fairly, and should be spoken about in that section. BTW I do not trust "History" as it is a conspiracy site that runs 'aliens built the pyramids' type shows. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- - The majority of sources say Zoroastrianism is monotheistic.
- -There is a consensus that Zoroastrianism had influenced Abrahamic religions. even Britannica agrees with that.
- -the section in this article discusses Dualism/Polytheism Arguments fairly, and debunks the misconceptions.
- End of discussion. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 It barely mentions Polytheism, and where is this consensus? So far I've seen one source saying that, but it doesn't tally. And how do we know Zoroastrianism influenced Abrahamic religions? What's the source for that, beyond people just repeating it? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- from Britannica:
- "Zoroastrianism is one of the world’s oldest monotheistic religions, having originated in ancient Persia. It contains both monotheistic and dualistic elements, and many scholars believe Zoroastrianism influenced the belief systems of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam."
- There are plenty of sources and articles to support such claims. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 "and many scholars believe" does not mean all. The article goes on to say "Though Zoroastrianism was never, even in the thinking of its founder, as insistently monotheistic as, for instance, Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples. Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. " Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 It barely mentions Polytheism, and where is this consensus? So far I've seen one source saying that, but it doesn't tally. And how do we know Zoroastrianism influenced Abrahamic religions? What's the source for that, beyond people just repeating it? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Then there's a contradiction here. the sources say two different things. Both that it's monotheistic, and that it's not and they go on to name other gods in the religion and say that they do have a pantheon but they focus worship on one central god. Other sources say that it is definitely not monotheistic in its origins, but became more so. Others that it never really has been. So why are you getting so angry at me? This is something I think should be discussed fairly, and should be spoken about in that section. BTW I do not trust "History" as it is a conspiracy site that runs 'aliens built the pyramids' type shows. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Britannica seems to disagree Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- There is a general Consensus that Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic. it seems you don't want to read what was posted on this article which clearly discusses such matters. Researcher1988 (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 If the wiki page is wrong, then so is Britannica and every other source I've come across related to Mithras etc. Though there are so many strains of Zor I should probably ask which one you mean. I find it hard to understand why you are trying so hard to fit religion known for pantheism into the mould of one that isn't. Which section discusses these matters in detail? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 The wiki pages for Mithra and Tishtrya, two of the Yazatas, literally call them gods. Polytheism is barely mentioned on the page at all, and nowhere within the theology section. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 If you could slow down and listen, you would understand that that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. In order:
- you have absolutely no knowledge of Zoroastrianism. Ahriman is not worshiped, he is the devil. Yazatas are Angels, they are created by Ahura Mazda, they are not gods. Researcher1988 (talk) 17:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
(Editors, may I suggest the use of more verbatim quotations of sources when making a claim and adding the relevant citation. I think it would lead to a more objective discussion instead of a subjective one.) Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 23:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- That could certainly help for a subject as apparently controversial as an obscure religion comprising of a few thousand people. lol Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- This religion is monotheistic, but some people are mistaken because they consider Ahriman as a God, but this is not true, Ahriman is in fact the Devil, the only true God is Ahura Mazda. Saying that Zoroastrianism is dualistic would be tantamount saying that Christianism is so too, since you also have a God and a Devil for Christianism. Sources : "The prophet Zoroaster founded the first monotheistic religion in history", "Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.".---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 10:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Wikaviani Thank you for the interesting sources, though I'm not sure that they support the point you want to make - or the ones made in that section of the article. The first one is an economics journal that doesn't cite its source, so I'm not sure we can use it. The second actively rebukes it; since it says Zor went from polytheism, to dualism, to monotheism over time. This is actually what I've been saying throughout this page. I.e. that it began with pagan ideas, then morphed. Likely in response to the rise of another popular monotheistic religion. There is also, still, the problem of Mithra and the 'ones who are worthy of worship'. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 14:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Mithra is not mentioned in the Gathas, it is not linked with Zoroastrism, thus your remark is irrelevant here. Zoroastrism is a reform of Mazdeism aimed to become a monotheistic religion, that became true over time.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 11:22, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Okay Wikaviani. So we agree it stems from a polytheistic religions. I feel this should be mentioned, and the progression of the theology laid out. Mithra is just one of various divine beings in the Yasht hymns, where Mithra is described as a radiant, shining, deity associated with the sun. He is often invoked alongside other divine entities, such as Hvare-khshaeta (sun god) and Surya (Indian Vedic sun god). Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Judaism started from a polytheistic background too. so what? what is your point here? Zoroastrianism was monotheistic from the beginning. Zoroaster changed and revolutionized his native polytheistic religion and created the new faith. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Again; that is speculation to be had on the Judaism page, and is not relevant to this conversation. The sources here make it clear that Mithra and other pagan gods were, at minimum, subjects of worship by the Zor religion that seem to have dwindled to background figures over time. We have established, through sources, that early versions of the Zor holy book were polytheist. Other sources claim it to have at least dabbled in Dualism, though the consensus appears to be that it's Dualist. Or, at least, that's what the majority of sources I've checked seem to say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Wrong. we have established Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the beginning. Yazatas Are not gods. they were created by Ahura Mazda. you have to increase your knowledge of Zoroastrianism before giving opinion about such matters. Researcher1988 (talk) 08:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Nope, Zoroastrianism might be seemingly polytheistic or dualistic,[1] but this is not true, as i said above, it is a reform of a polytheistic religion (Mazdeism) aimed to become a monotheistic religion. Even the Arabs, who conquered Persia in the 7th century AD agreed on this finally.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 10:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- exactly.
- 1- it is monotheistic, because the religion believes in one supreme un-created deity who has created all that exists.
- 2- Yazatas are NOT gods, or deities, but divinities, emanations of Ahura Mazda, obedient and subordinate to him.
- 3- veneration of Yazatas gives Zoroastrianism, a false "Polytheistic appearance;" while in fact yazatas are not equal, similar, or comparable to Ahura Mazda, but his subordinate agents. Researcher1988 (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 How was this established, and in what way, and from what point in its history? Bearing in mind we have sources showing it has changed over time, and saying the Avesta was (at least in the beginning) polytheistic. Can you define how we separate the Yazata from gods? Gods often create other gods, so that cannot be a criteria. And, according to @Wikaviani's source, Zor seems to acknowledge and even worship multiple gods. Including ones that are worshiped as gods by other loacl religions. This seems as lot like a pantheon with a head god, like Zeus. Which would make it a form of Henotheism or perhaps Monolatry. Either way, I don't really think it fits the definition of Monotheism, which Britannica says is "Belief in the existence of one god alone". At the very least, it doesn't fit it across all of its existence, as we have seen from this source. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- 1- we don't have sources that prove Zoroastrianism has changed over time. its your personal opinion.
- 2-yazatas were created by Ahura Mazda. they have limited power and are obedient and subordinate to him. Yazatas are emanations of god. besides gods don't CREATE gods, but beget them through sexual intercourse etc.
- 3-No. Zoroastrianism is neither Henotheistic nor monolatrous. Zoroastrianism believes in one single creator, which is the source of all the existence, and doesn't recognize any other deity. Researcher1988 (talk) 12:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Of course we don't have to prove it. You've admitted they began via one of these changes, and it's already proven by multiple sources - including many that are cited on the page itself. Brahma is said to have created gods through the power of his divine thought. The Greek gods turned humans into gods. Gaia and Uanus give birth to other gods. The Shabaka Stone, from the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, says Ptah "gave life to all the gods and their kas as well, through this heart and this tongue.". And I'm wondering how you explain veneration of Mithra in the texts, because he's certainly worshiped as a god. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 How was this established, and in what way, and from what point in its history? Bearing in mind we have sources showing it has changed over time, and saying the Avesta was (at least in the beginning) polytheistic. Can you define how we separate the Yazata from gods? Gods often create other gods, so that cannot be a criteria. And, according to @Wikaviani's source, Zor seems to acknowledge and even worship multiple gods. Including ones that are worshiped as gods by other loacl religions. This seems as lot like a pantheon with a head god, like Zeus. Which would make it a form of Henotheism or perhaps Monolatry. Either way, I don't really think it fits the definition of Monotheism, which Britannica says is "Belief in the existence of one god alone". At the very least, it doesn't fit it across all of its existence, as we have seen from this source. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Nope, Zoroastrianism might be seemingly polytheistic or dualistic,[1] but this is not true, as i said above, it is a reform of a polytheistic religion (Mazdeism) aimed to become a monotheistic religion. Even the Arabs, who conquered Persia in the 7th century AD agreed on this finally.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 10:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Wrong. we have established Zoroastrianism was Monotheistic from the beginning. Yazatas Are not gods. they were created by Ahura Mazda. you have to increase your knowledge of Zoroastrianism before giving opinion about such matters. Researcher1988 (talk) 08:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Again; that is speculation to be had on the Judaism page, and is not relevant to this conversation. The sources here make it clear that Mithra and other pagan gods were, at minimum, subjects of worship by the Zor religion that seem to have dwindled to background figures over time. We have established, through sources, that early versions of the Zor holy book were polytheist. Other sources claim it to have at least dabbled in Dualism, though the consensus appears to be that it's Dualist. Or, at least, that's what the majority of sources I've checked seem to say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Judaism started from a polytheistic background too. so what? what is your point here? Zoroastrianism was monotheistic from the beginning. Zoroaster changed and revolutionized his native polytheistic religion and created the new faith. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Okay Wikaviani. So we agree it stems from a polytheistic religions. I feel this should be mentioned, and the progression of the theology laid out. Mithra is just one of various divine beings in the Yasht hymns, where Mithra is described as a radiant, shining, deity associated with the sun. He is often invoked alongside other divine entities, such as Hvare-khshaeta (sun god) and Surya (Indian Vedic sun god). Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Mithra is not mentioned in the Gathas, it is not linked with Zoroastrism, thus your remark is irrelevant here. Zoroastrism is a reform of Mazdeism aimed to become a monotheistic religion, that became true over time.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 11:22, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Wikaviani Thank you for the interesting sources, though I'm not sure that they support the point you want to make - or the ones made in that section of the article. The first one is an economics journal that doesn't cite its source, so I'm not sure we can use it. The second actively rebukes it; since it says Zor went from polytheism, to dualism, to monotheism over time. This is actually what I've been saying throughout this page. I.e. that it began with pagan ideas, then morphed. Likely in response to the rise of another popular monotheistic religion. There is also, still, the problem of Mithra and the 'ones who are worthy of worship'. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 14:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- This religion is monotheistic, but some people are mistaken because they consider Ahriman as a God, but this is not true, Ahriman is in fact the Devil, the only true God is Ahura Mazda. Saying that Zoroastrianism is dualistic would be tantamount saying that Christianism is so too, since you also have a God and a Devil for Christianism. Sources : "The prophet Zoroaster founded the first monotheistic religion in history", "Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.".---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 10:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Re-ordering and re-arranging the page sections
I've noticed in this article, there are some paragraphs which discuss matters and subjects that belong to other sections; for example some paragraphs in "practice" section, which discusses individual duties and life of a Zoroastrian, fits better in "principal beliefs" section, while a paragraph (about dead corpse) fits better in "rituals and prayer" sub-section. I suggest, I re-order those paragraphs and then, re-arrange the sections and sub-sections like this:
-Etymology -Theology -Principal beliefs - tenets of faith - Cosmology - Eschatology -Practices and rituals ("practice" section, merges with "Ritual and prayer" subsection) -Scripture -History - Zoroaster ("Zoroaster" section becomes a sub-section of history) -Demographics -Relation with other religions Researcher1988 (talk) 06:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Good call. Remsense诉 08:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- You're right. The theology section, especially, is a bit of a confusing mess and really needs to be built as a timeline rather than a single section as their beliefs changed radically over the centuries. However, getting others to agree to something like that may be like pulling teeth. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Eh? Nah, I doubt it often. You'd be surprised how often you can start taking a hacksaw to a big, high-traffic article, and no one is particularly concerned (unless real mistakes start happening.) Remsense诉 15:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I will try to help if I can. But I think we should agree a plan before doing something like that. My thought is that the history section could be used as a template for several smaller theology sections that go over the 'early, middle, late' beliefs. Starting with the origins as a breakaway from other local religions, the journey through/from dualism and polytheism to the current iteration. What do you think? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Worst that can happen is you have to revert it! Be bold, but not reckless, as they say. Remsense诉 15:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism did not change radically over centuries. there is no evidence for your claims.
- Zoroastrianism was monotheistic from the beginning and it remained such in the coming centuries after Zoroaster. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Both your sources, and mine, state that it has changed radically over the centuries. Here is a short list of some of them:
- "Like the rest of the Zoroastrian texts, the Old Avesta does not teach monotheism, and this severely undermines the argument of Zoroastrian Influence Theory, which sees Zoroastrianism as the source of the Bible’s monotheistic beliefs." And also : [2]"Zoroastrianism has a unique theistic doctrine which combines dualism, polytheism and pantheism. Therefore, Zoroastrianism should stop being referred to as the oldestmonotheistic religion"
- [3]"This one shows how Zoroastrianism developed, through time, from polytheism and dualism toward monotheism,"
- [4]This one points directly to the religion being a 'mix'.
- This is just a small selection. There are numerous others cited on the Zor page. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- No sources ever stated such a thing. it is your own personal opinion. Researcher1988 (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 "Like the rest of the Zoroastrian texts, the Old Avesta does not teach monotheism, and this severely undermines the argument of Zoroastrian Influence Theory, which sees Zoroastrianism as the source of the Bible’s monotheistic beliefs." And also : [1]"Zoroastrianism has a unique theistic doctrine which combines dualism, polytheism and pantheism. Therefore, Zoroastrianism should stop being referred to as the oldest monotheistic religion" Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- your source is not reliable. the article has many inconsistencies and does not provide any valuable argument to prove its point.
- the vast majority of scholars believe Zoroastrianism is monotheistic. from worldhistory.org:
- "Zoroastrianism is the monotheistic faith established by the Persian prophet Zoroaster (also given as Zarathustra, Zartosht) between c. 1500-1000 BCE. It holds that there is one supreme deity, Ahura Mazda (Lord of Wisdom), creator and sustainer of all things, and encourages adherents to express their faith through the principle of Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds." Researcher1988 (talk) 09:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Which of my sources are unreliable, and why? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- the article you are using does not provide any reliable arguments for its claims.
- besides, your claims doesn't match what the article says.
- there are countless articles that prove you wrong. but you are repeating your false arguments time after time. this discussion must end here. Researcher1988 (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I'm confused about the way you argue. People are citing articles in here all the time that don't "provide any reliable arguments for its claims". The one I gave you actually does, and is a fully cited master's thesis. It even cites some of the things cited at me. You won't even listen to what I'm saying, or read enough to realise I'm quoting the thesis directly, and that it very much is saying what I am saying. In fact, there are several other thesis that say much the same that I can see here. All I am arguing here is that the article should have a timeline showing the rise of Zor out of polytheism, just as your sources say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- no. the one you gave here actually doesn't.
- you don't listen to what I am saying.
- according to my sources and every other out there, Zoroastrianism is Monotheistic.
- any idea that implies Zoroastrianism is not monotheistic, should be regarded as "anti-Zoroastrian" misinformation. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:00, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Even if it comes from sources that you yourself cite? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 06:57, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I'm confused about the way you argue. People are citing articles in here all the time that don't "provide any reliable arguments for its claims". The one I gave you actually does, and is a fully cited master's thesis. It even cites some of the things cited at me. You won't even listen to what I'm saying, or read enough to realise I'm quoting the thesis directly, and that it very much is saying what I am saying. In fact, there are several other thesis that say much the same that I can see here. All I am arguing here is that the article should have a timeline showing the rise of Zor out of polytheism, just as your sources say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Which of my sources are unreliable, and why? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 "Like the rest of the Zoroastrian texts, the Old Avesta does not teach monotheism, and this severely undermines the argument of Zoroastrian Influence Theory, which sees Zoroastrianism as the source of the Bible’s monotheistic beliefs." And also : [1]"Zoroastrianism has a unique theistic doctrine which combines dualism, polytheism and pantheism. Therefore, Zoroastrianism should stop being referred to as the oldest monotheistic religion" Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- No sources ever stated such a thing. it is your own personal opinion. Researcher1988 (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Both your sources, and mine, state that it has changed radically over the centuries. Here is a short list of some of them:
- Worst that can happen is you have to revert it! Be bold, but not reckless, as they say. Remsense诉 15:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I will try to help if I can. But I think we should agree a plan before doing something like that. My thought is that the history section could be used as a template for several smaller theology sections that go over the 'early, middle, late' beliefs. Starting with the origins as a breakaway from other local religions, the journey through/from dualism and polytheism to the current iteration. What do you think? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Eh? Nah, I doubt it often. You'd be surprised how often you can start taking a hacksaw to a big, high-traffic article, and no one is particularly concerned (unless real mistakes start happening.) Remsense诉 15:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- You're right. The theology section, especially, is a bit of a confusing mess and really needs to be built as a timeline rather than a single section as their beliefs changed radically over the centuries. However, getting others to agree to something like that may be like pulling teeth. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Consensus on Monotheism
I suggest, we reach a consensus on Zoroastrian monotheism.
Zoroastrianism IS Monotheistic because:
1-Zoroastrianism believes in one single creator god, that has created the entire universe, and all that exists.
2-Yazats are divinities and subordinate agents emanated from Ahura Mazda. Yazatas ARE NOT gods. their veneration IS NOT against Monotheistic nature of Zoroastrianism, because they have been created by god, they are obedient to god, they don't have any creative powers and they are subordinate to power of their creator. this gives Zoroastrianism a "polytheistic appearance" but yet, is not against Monotheistic nature of the religion.
3-After reaching a conclusion, we must consider any claim that implies Zoroastrianism is not monotheistic, as "anti-Zoroastrian misinformation", and prevent such ideas from being published on this page.
Thanks. Researcher1988 (talk) 19:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree Modern Zoroastrians may be more inclined to Henotheism or perhaps Monolatry, but Zoroastrianism is not strictly Monotheistic and has changed radically over its existence. Older versions of holy book are polytheist, and Zoroastrians have long believed in multiple gods. Including beings seen as gods by other religions, such as Mithra. Yazats being created or subordinate beings does not stop them from being gods. Nor does them lacking creation abilities. Many gods are like this. My view is We should treat the question as one whose answer changes over time. Your third claim sounds very much like propaganda, and would require we to strip out all contradictory sources that mention polytheism or dualism. Which would be most of them. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 07:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- according to all sources Zoroastrianism was/is monotheistic.
- this discussion must end here. Researcher1988 (talk) 08:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Your inability to not sully your own vote by starting yet another debate in the middle of it is frankly astonishing. This is clearly an issue of emotions and ideology for you. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- It is exactly you who are acting emotional.
- you were proven wrong, time after time. but for some reason you don't want to accept your false opinions.
- this discussion is running out of hand. Researcher1988 (talk) 09:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 I will not ruin this vote by participating in yet another debate when you have not even responded to the other two. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Researcher1988 Your inability to not sully your own vote by starting yet another debate in the middle of it is frankly astonishing. This is clearly an issue of emotions and ideology for you. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Conversation About The Vote
- @Wikaviani Do you agree to reach a consensus and end this discussion? Researcher1988 (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is that the discussion is mainly about personal opinions, which constitute original research and is not the basis to include info in articles. I have noticed a few times lax interpretation of what sources say. The discussion should be primarily about what reliable sources state about the topic, presenting quotes of material.
- Examples,
Zoroastrianism believes in one single creator god, that has created the entire universe, and all that exists.
[citation needed]Modern Zoroastrians may be more inclined to Henotheism or perhaps Monolatry
[citation needed]
- Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 05:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I don't see a clear consensus here, even if I think that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic, just like you, some other editors seem to disagree.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 06:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Wikaviani
- there is a scholarly Consensus about this. and the vast majority of editors seem to agree.
- there should be a way to reach a consensus anyway. Researcher1988 (talk) 07:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Just FYI, I've shunted this to its own section to stop the vote being messed up.
- @Thinker78 I think that one factor that keeps being pushed past in this is that Zoroastrianism is not a single thing, like say Judaism or Islam. Just reading off Wiki, we have many different forms - such as Zurvanite Zoroastrianism, which believed in multiple gods. Mazdakism, which was duellist. Manichaeism, which was created by combining a multitude of other religions with Zoroastrianism - including Buddhism, Judaism, Gnostics, and Christianity. So there are many branches that are Polytheist, while others are more dualistic or steeped in Henotheism or Monolatry.
- @Researcher1988 Which editors? I only count one other who has openly supported you on this, and they only replied once. As to scholarly consensus.... on which version of Zoroastrianism, and at which time? It could be more monotheistic now, but it certainly has had a long history of not being so. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- you don't know anything about Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism was certainly a monotheistic religion from the beginning and it had no other version. Researcher1988 (talk) 14:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia, quite assuredly, has pages for multiple different offshoots. Including the ones above, but also cults like Mithraism. Most of these offshoots were killed off, but they are quite real. I suggest you click on some of the hotlinks I provided. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- unfortunately you have no information about Zoroastrianism or any other Iranian religiosns or .
- 1-Zoroastrianism is a single religion. it was found by prophet Zoroaster, and is based on Avesta. Zoroastrianism is less sectarian than Abrahamic religions and is more uniform in its doctrine and teaching.
- 2-Manichaeism is another religion which was founded by Mani. it is an independent religion.
- 3-Mazdakism is a socio-economic ideology, founded by Mazdak. It is an independent ideology.
- You have very little information about these religions. Researcher1988 (talk) 16:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- To answer to the editors saying that people here don't provide sources, i would say that most expert sources ackowledge Zoroastrianism as Monotheistic, for example, Yves Bomati, a well-known French historian of religions says "Zarathoustra, le réformateur monothéiste", i. e. "Zarathustra, the monotheistic reformer" [5], Jean Kellens, another prominent expert of this topic says : "Les accusations de dualisme ne sont pas sans fondement mais elles sont sans portée. Le dualisme du fondateur n'est pas de nature religieuse mais philosophique et cette philosophie est imprégnée de morale. Elle fonde une éthique du comportement qui exige le discernement entre le bien et le mal et est soumise à une
- rétribution posthume." i.e."Accusations of dualism are not unfounded, but they are irrelevant. The founder's dualism is not religious, but philosophical in nature, and this philosophy is imbued with morality. It is based on a behavioral ethics that require discernment between good and evil, and is subject to posthumous retribution." [6]. George Foot Moore, a prominent American historian of religions says : "The religion whose adherents call themselves "whorshippers of Mazda", the wise God, and which we commonly name after its founder Zoroastrianism, is in many ways of peculiar interest. It is the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European origin as Judaism is the one independent Semitic Monotheism." [7]. hope this will help.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate your direct quotes but no idea why are you quoting in French if this is the English Wikipedia though. Is there lack of English sources for the topic? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 04:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Guys, could we be careful to ensure replies are indented properly as it makes it easier for me to see who is replying to who?
- To @Researcher1988 1) I refer you to the wiki pages I linked to, showing that there have historically been a wide variety of Zoroastrian sects. I'm not sure why you think it is uniform as Zoroastrianism has changed a lot over its existence. Older versions of the holy book are polytheist, 2) Manichaeism combines the teachings of Zoroastrianism, but it is not the strongest of the examples I've given. Mani saw himself as a prophet in the line of Zor. 3) Mazdakism's wiki page terms it "an offshoot of Zoroastrianism", and it is part of the Zoroastrian series on Wikipedia and by Oxford
- @Wikaviani I'm sorry I cannot read most of your sources, but I am a little sceptical that Zoroastrianism is partly European as it is very Persian. I also have a variety of sources that I have given before, which clearly say that it is not monotheistic but that it became more so over time. Time is a huge factor in this discussion, which needs to be addressed. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 08:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Zoroastrianism has not been changed over centuries, and it seems you can't even comprehend those pages.
- you don't even know the difference between Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism.
- why you keep repeating your false beliefs which are based on misinformation and ignorance? Researcher1988 (talk) 09:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate your direct quotes but no idea why are you quoting in French if this is the English Wikipedia though. Is there lack of English sources for the topic? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 04:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia, quite assuredly, has pages for multiple different offshoots. Including the ones above, but also cults like Mithraism. Most of these offshoots were killed off, but they are quite real. I suggest you click on some of the hotlinks I provided. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 15:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- you don't know anything about Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism was certainly a monotheistic religion from the beginning and it had no other version. Researcher1988 (talk) 14:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I don't see a clear consensus here, even if I think that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic, just like you, some other editors seem to disagree.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 06:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)