TheOldJacobite (talk | contribs) Reverted to revision 357138399 by Dayewalker; This is not a forum or message board; please keep comments relevant. (TW) |
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See [[WP:AN#Topic ban redux]], which is a complaint about an IP editor who has engaged in long-term promotion of [[WP:FRINGE|fringe]] ideas about the role of [[William Greer]] in the Kennedy assassination. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive202#Proposed_topic_ban a previous mention] of this article on the same noticeboard. Due to those discussions, the article has been semi-protected for six months. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 19:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC) |
See [[WP:AN#Topic ban redux]], which is a complaint about an IP editor who has engaged in long-term promotion of [[WP:FRINGE|fringe]] ideas about the role of [[William Greer]] in the Kennedy assassination. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive202#Proposed_topic_ban a previous mention] of this article on the same noticeboard. Due to those discussions, the article has been semi-protected for six months. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 19:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC) |
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== AARB Researcher Doug Horne Points To Greer == |
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I'm back! I'm very happy to report that, in his new five volume book, Doug Horne points to William Robert Greer as a possible shooter, which is corroborated by both the Zapruder film and witness testimony, including that of Secret Service Agent Clint Hill. Now, I respectfully ask that you not revert the edits. This view is no longer "fringe". Thank you. |
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This article was listed on votes for deletion; see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/William Greer. —No-One Jones (m) 09:58, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
William Greer is mentioned as possible Kennedy assassin on the "Kennedy Assassination Theories" discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kennedy_assassination_theories 70.174.38.160 13:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Greer is an important figure who deserves to have an entry on Wikipedia. I fail to see, however, why the Freemasons deserve to have an opinon on him, or William Cooper, a well-known conspiracist with zero credibility in the eyes of any reasonable person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barnej (talk • contribs) 04:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a clearinghouse only for those who "deserve to have an opinion", as you say. Everyone deserves to have an opinion. Greer is either partially or completely to blame for the death of The President of The United States. His role in this event warrants his own page. Furthermore, his actions in the motorcade are recorded on the Zapruder film for all to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehpitche (talk • contribs) 01:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia aims to be an authoritative source. Conspiracy-mongerng should have no place there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barnej (talk • contribs) 02:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! Hqb 08:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Revert war
Greetings. Revert wars are considered harmful on Wikipedia. If you have a disagreement about what should be in an article, it's best to discuss the issue here instead of simply reverting. – Quadell (talk) (random) 13:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Paragraph removed
I have entirely removed the paragraph edited in this edit. A theory by an amateur researcher on a vanity publisher that isn't supported by any other source should not be given any weight whatsoever. One Night In Hackney303 19:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Anyone can publish with lulu.com and for such a claim a secondary source should be found. BigDunc (talk) 11:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
New additions
There is a group of watchdogs reverting this post instantly whenever any responsibility is placed on Greer. In light of the enhanced MPI film (produced from the original Zapruder film) I'm requesting that you leave the current post intact and allow contributors to add the specific citations.
These revert warriors' have clear double standards, including a lack of citations for the first two paragraphs of the History section, as well as this paragraph: "Some commentators have criticized Greer's actions during the assassination, noting that he did not accelerate the vehicle to get the president out of danger as soon as he could have. In the confusion after the first shot was fired, the limousine's brake lights can be seen coming on briefly, slowing the car to almost a walking pace. The vehicle accelerated several seconds later, but by then the fatal shot had been fired. (Since that time, Secret Service agents have been trained to accelerate rapidly out of the area if they even think they hear gunfire.)" [citation needed]
Fact: William Greer was not just a driver, he was a trained SS agent authorized to carry a weapon in the presence of the president of the United States.
Fact: William Greer was with Kennedy the entire time from Love Field to Bethesda (alive and dead) and controlled his clothing (murder evidence). The so called "Warren Report" is the documentation supporting this last point. I have a copy on my shelf and plan to post many citations referencing it soon.
Fact: The stabilized Zapruder film as copied from the National Archives shows new detail of Greer's already contradicting actions (especially when compared to his testimony).
Fact: There is no credential for assassination researchers to determine what is credible (such as a PHD etc.) nor for theories that should or should not be considered. (And the age or widespread acceptance does NOT make a theory more credible. A lie can be old and widely believed, but it can still be a lie.) And please outline where a self-published is outlined as an invalid reference in Wikipedia's standards. All publishers turned down the work of Howard Weisburg even though he was the first and the best of the assassination researchers!
STOP REVERTING THIS ARTICLE TO EXCLUDE THE FACTS OUTLINED ABOVE. THEY ARE A CLEAR PART OF THE HISTORICAL RECORD AND THE MURDER OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES DESERVES SUCH SCRUTINY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.244.196 (talk) 03:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Please read WP:FRINGE before you add this material again. Gamaliel (talk) 04:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Citations Added September 2008
I have researched more background on Greer and added citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.246.67 (talk) 03:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
A New Section
There is a need for a new section of this article. Many people have come to believe that it was Greer himself who shot president Kennedy in the head, hence, the "slow down" and the turn around (which is totally against procedure and is not typical behavior for a Secret Service person). Many people also believe that Jackie O saw this and was climbing out of the cabin in order to get away, not to get a piece of John's brain (which, I'll admit, sounds pretty ridiculous in retrospect). There was a Secret Service person who ran up and jumped on the back of the car and seems to almost have forcibly put her back in her seat, where she sat for the rest of the way. It can be labeled it "conspiracy theories" if that's necessary, but it's time that this become a part of the article. Jiminezwaldorf (talk) 09:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Disgusting article
I have reverted this back to an earlier version, with a couple of amendments to text unsupported by the source. This article has been taken over by a fringe POV pusher intent on publicising his tin foil hat theories that are in his vanity published book, and was a gross violation of WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT. There are many theories detailed in Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, and Greer is not mentioned there a single time. Therefore to have most of article that tries to make him look guilty is totally unacceptable. At best, all that should be in this article is something like "Although no court or official report has ever alleged wrongdoing on his part, [insert name(s) of credible non-tin foil hat non-vanity published author(s)] continue to explore Greer's possible complicity in the assassination", and that is assuming there is consensus on that article for a theory regarding Greer to be added. 2 lines of K303 13:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Why Keep Reverting When So Much Documented Fact?
I spent a solid week referencing the additions and removed speculation about greer firing a pistol, although to me, that can be the only explantation for his behavior in Z312. Please leave the well supported commentary in place. Greer's own admissions and archival footage backs up the section on the aftermath of the assassination, which is an important part of this unsolved murder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.220.204 (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia guidelines and policies do not act in isolation from each other, they act in conjunction with each other. That something can be sourced does not mean it should be included, especially as in this case the addition fails WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. It is unacceptable to have the bulk of this article presenting a tiny fringe minority view, and worse still, presenting it as the majority view. There is no evidence of this even being a significant minority view, it is a tiny fringe minority view. If, and only if, credible sources can be found alleging Greer's involvement, then an appropriately weighted addition can be added. By appropriately weighted, I mean the one sentence addition I have already suggested. For 18 months you have been a single purpose fringe POV pusher edit warring against multiple editors in good standing, if you continue I will move to have you blocked or banned from this page. 2 lines of K303 13:05, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no "view" represented here other than the historcal records of Greer's role on November 22-23, 1963. The FBI consdered him a suspect at the time as they recorded his height and weight. It would be "FRINGE" to say "William Greer was the assassin of John F. Kennedy", which my edits do not. However, the foremost expert on the topic, Vince Palamara, is the source for much of ths commentary and considered Greer "The most important agent." It is a FACT that Greer's role was more than that of a driver, which the historical record demonstrates and these edits reinforce. To simply record him as a mere "driver" is worse than innacurate, it is false. Therefore, I sumbit that the entire article remain intact vs. a complete revert so that the text may be TWEAKED to comply with Wikipeda guidelines. For a time in human history, the idea that the world was round was actually a "fringe" point of view, only to be proven as fact over time.
- To prove that these are not fringe views, you must provide sources which are acceptable according to WP:RS. Sources like Lifton are unacceptable according to policy. Gamaliel (talk) 03:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
I have added more sources than just Lifton, including the "Warren Report" itself. Lifton is a researcher who has published a book. Don't do a complete revert simply because of Lifton as a source, please. If referencing Lifton is unacceptable WP policy, you have a great deal of work to do removing millions of references to published authors! Why are Manchester and Powers acceptable to you? Answer this question before you revert. Thank you.
- Manchester is a respected, award winning historian. Lifton is some crank with a theory about body switching. WP:RS requires we treat them differently. Please familiarize yourself with policy before you revert war. Also note the policy WP:3RR. Gamaliel (talk) 04:03, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Lifton is a published author and respected researcher, despite his own controversial theories. If a researcher finds documents that show the moon is round but insists the earth is flat, one can still extract a component of the researchers work without endorsing their entire world view, can they not? How about Vince Palamara? And why don't you just edit out Lifton's references instead of reverting? YOU are causing the revert war by not editing. Obscuring much of my edits seems to be your objectve, I guess. There are many "respected" authors who have misrepresented the truth. Study and learn from your history in grade school. A round earth was a "fringe" view held by less respected researchers for a time, while the "respected" authors and other "professionals" held that the earth was flat. See Flat Earth. I have added references to the John F. Kennedy Assassination section on Secret Service Criticism that you just reverted. You can threaten me with WP topics all you want. The objective here is to edit and improve. Please contribute.
- If you add this information back once more, I will move to have you banned from this page, which may well be enforced by block. The information is a fringe theory being given undue weight. Your "sources" are just a mish-mash of synthesis designed to make Greer look as guilty as possible based on your own observations on the sources. Take your use of the Warren Commission, it is being used to source the sentence "Greer did not discuss slowing the car in his statement to the FBI on the night of the assassination, nor did he mention this aspect to the Warren Commission during the official investigation", amongst other dubious sentences. That is your observation on his testimony, and is solely designed to make Greer look guilty and is a policy violation. Similarly the sentence of "The FBI interviewed Greer after the assassination and, although agents Kellerman and Behn were also interviewed, Greer's interview is unique in that his physical description is also recorded in the 11/27/63 FBI report" is exactly the same, and there are countless similar problems. This article is not going to be turned into an attack article on Greer, and if one more attempt is made to do so I will move for a ban. 2 lines of K303 11:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
- You can't pass off the burden of the flaws in your contributions to others. If you want your contributions to stay, they must conform to WP policy. That means no dubious sources like Lifton as per WP:RS and WP:FRINGE, no analysis of primary evidence which is prohibited original research, etc. Your references to former mistaken beliefs like the flat earth are irrelevant. We aren't here to blaze new trails or overturn established thought. We reflect mainstream, established sources, and if we are wrong, we change it after those sources have been corrected. If that is unacceptable to you, then this is not the website for you, because that is a core Wikipedia policy. Gamaliel (talk) 14:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Greer's involvement in the aftermath of the assassination is a valid component of the historical record. STOP REVERTING MY WORK TO THE BS "GREER WAS JUST AN OLD DRIVER" BALONEY AND MAKE SPECIFIC EDITS TO WHAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH!
- Discussion of whatever Greer's involvement was isn't the issue. The issue is inappropriate fringe sources like Lifton and original research analysis of primary sources as in the section "A new look at the Zapruder film". Gamaliel (talk) 15:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
- I believe discussing Greer's involvement in this article is very much the issue. As this is a short article, the whole problem is undue weight, especialy as his involvement is a significant way from the majority view. Per WP:FRINGE fringe views should be dealt with in the article about the view, which in this case already exists as there's a whole article about the conspiracy theories. A one or two sentence summary in this article would be acceptable if a reliably sourced theory can be added no that article, but covering the theory in depth in this article causes undue weight problems. Which is essentially what I said back in March! 2 lines of K303 13:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree. A summary would have been as far as it should go. I was trying to get through to the anon that this wasn't an ideological problem but one of sources and I figured the weight issue could be dealt with once we got through to the anon, which unfortunately turned out to be fruitless. Gamaliel (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)```````````````````````````````````````````
Greer's own testimony in the Warren Report contradicts his actions in the Zapruder film. In short, he lied to cover up the fact that he (along with Kellerman) saw that JFK was mortally wounded and DID NOT RESPOND ACCORDING TO SS POLICY! The Warren Report, the HSCA Report, the Zapruder film, and ABC news footage are sufficient sources. You are covering up the truth! -Anon
- If these are sufficient sources, why keep inserting the fringe ones like Lifton? Gamaliel (talk) 06:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
These are sufficient sources. Leave these comments and references. Lifton is the most respected and published among critics. If you have a problem with him, then remove (EDIT) the text attributed to him, but don't "throw the baby out with the bath water" by childish revision. Much of my edits revolve around FBI reports, Warren Commission Testimony, the Zapruder Film, etc. Greer and the US Secret Service set the stage for the assassination of JFK. You're doing a disservice to the United States of America and the world by framing him as a "driver" who was slow to react. The stabilized Zapruder Film clearly shows that he turned a second time to shoot JFK, his Warren Commission testimony is false, and the FBI report records his physical description, as standard with suspects. Clearly, Greer's role was beyond a driver. ("Constant vigilance" is attributed to him.) See Vince Palamara's work. Don't expect any "mainstream" source to claim what the Zapruder film clearly shows-Greer murdered JFK because the other shots were not fatal and time was running out. Extract what ut you don't see as substantiated, but don't revert to the "driver" BS.
- Lifton is just the beginning of the problems with the material. We can work with this section if you are serious about getting this alternative viewpoint in the article, but repeatedly inserting Lifton in the article shows that you are not serious about adhering to WP policies. Gamaliel (talk) 06:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Then stop reverting and give me the opportunity to revise. OR, spend time researching and revising yourself, as you did with the LHO page. I'm not hanging my hat on Lifton, although he IS respected and has done much research. You can't expect a detractor from the "official" story to have the same credentials. (The US Government is credible, along with anyone else selling the lie. but critics are not simply because they are critics of the "official"? A lack of "officialdom" should not diminish their contribution to the research process. By the way, why in the Hell are you revising this so quickly and so frequently? Do you have this flagged with an alert. Five or ten minutes response time around the clock is pretty extreme. It looks like your desperately trying to hide the truth. I wrote over 2/3 of this article (most with my real user name) so don't demonize me because of Lifton. I am deadly serious about the truth.
- You can revise using a word or google document, or you can create a WP:SANDBOX as a subpage of your userpage, something like this. We can't material that violates policy sit in the article until you get around to revising it into a satisfactory form. You've been inserting this material for quite some time without making the slightest revision, so I think at this point it's incumbent upon you to show that you are willing to revise at all, not for us to violate policy in hopes you will eventually decide to adhere to it.
- Users with accounts have a feature called a "watchlist" and you can flag any article you wish in such a manner if you get an account.
- Accusing me of "desperately trying to hide the truth" is not appropriate behavior under Wikipedia policy. Policy requires that you treat other editors in a civil manner. Gamaliel (talk) 06:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
What SPECIFCALLY violates WP policy? Please quote the text and I will edit accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.12.102 (talk) 13:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Start by removing fringe sources like Lifton and read the rest of this talk page. There are plenty of editors here trying to explain what's wrong with the section. If you have any questions about the concerns we've raised, please let me know here. Gamaliel (talk) 19:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Lifton is clear but "read the rest of this talk page" is not specific enough. Since you are so hell-bent on reverting ASAP, why don't you give more specifics please?
- For starters, please have a look at our prohibition against original research, particularly the section entitled "Synthesis of published material that advances a position". Gamaliel (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
There's no need to remove a discussion. Vexorg (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Help Edit This Article to Reflect the Historical Record
A group of watchdogs keep reverting my work instead of contributing to it. See below and please help me expand on the historical record relating to Secret Service SA William Robert Greer. His actions during AND after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy are relevant and should recieve more than a few token comments about him being a driver. In addition to violating procedure, he took a role close to JFK's body during the aftermath for at least fifteen straight hours. I look forward to a discussion on the points below. (There's no need to remove a discussion.) Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.229.171 (talk • contribs)
- I have removed the large section of quoted text. Here is a link to your preferred version instead. We can quote any specific text that we wish to discuss in detail, but we should not cut and paste an entire article here. Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
This page has been discussed by administrators
See WP:AN#Topic ban redux, which is a complaint about an IP editor who has engaged in long-term promotion of fringe ideas about the role of William Greer in the Kennedy assassination. See also a previous mention of this article on the same noticeboard. Due to those discussions, the article has been semi-protected for six months. EdJohnston (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
AARB Researcher Doug Horne Points To Greer
I'm back! I'm very happy to report that, in his new five volume book, Doug Horne points to William Robert Greer as a possible shooter, which is corroborated by both the Zapruder film and witness testimony, including that of Secret Service Agent Clint Hill. Now, I respectfully ask that you not revert the edits. This view is no longer "fringe". Thank you.