→Extent of scientific criticism: mark as archive, repeated discussion |
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:::You know, that is a point we haven't really talked about, that the movie doesn't present it as truth. ——'''[[User:Martinphi|<span style="color:#6c4408;border:1px dashed #6c4408;padding:1px;background:#FFFFFF;">Martin<sup>phi</sup>]]'''</span> [[User talk:Martinphi|☎]] Ψ [[Special:Contributions/Martinphi|Φ]]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 05:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC) |
:::You know, that is a point we haven't really talked about, that the movie doesn't present it as truth. ——'''[[User:Martinphi|<span style="color:#6c4408;border:1px dashed #6c4408;padding:1px;background:#FFFFFF;">Martin<sup>phi</sup>]]'''</span> [[User talk:Martinphi|☎]] Ψ [[Special:Contributions/Martinphi|Φ]]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 05:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:::My opinion, since you asked for it, is that your post exemplifies why this movie description needs to closely follow WP:FRINGE guidelines. For instance, you say both "''mainstream science has no opinion on spiritual matters''" and "''the movie tries to unite spirituality and science''", which reinforces the notion that this movie is far astray from the mainstream in presenting scientific claims. Your suggestion that the movie doesn't present this information as true is interesting. If that's the case, we need to make it very clear that nobody, not even the movie's creators, actually holds this stuff to be true. <font color="red">[[User:Antelan|Ante]]</font><font color="blue">[[User:Antelan|lan]]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">[[User_talk:Antelan|talk]]</font></sup> 06:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC) |
:::My opinion, since you asked for it, is that your post exemplifies why this movie description needs to closely follow WP:FRINGE guidelines. For instance, you say both "''mainstream science has no opinion on spiritual matters''" and "''the movie tries to unite spirituality and science''", which reinforces the notion that this movie is far astray from the mainstream in presenting scientific claims. Your suggestion that the movie doesn't present this information as true is interesting. If that's the case, we need to make it very clear that nobody, not even the movie's creators, actually holds this stuff to be true. <font color="red">[[User:Antelan|Ante]]</font><font color="blue">[[User:Antelan|lan]]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">[[User_talk:Antelan|talk]]</font></sup> 06:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Not all science is mainstream. I prefer to think of science as "body of knowledge" and this includes all kinds of discussions and philosophy. The movie is highly critical of dogmatic materialistic science, and this is what is considered authoritarian and generally called "science" in the US. And are you trying to raise a WP:POINT? Anyone who is slightly interested in science and how science progresses know that speculation is part of the scientific process. To frame it from the view you are suggesting is to impose the POV of authoritarian positivist materialism. Fact is that a lot of what is said in the movie is also true, for example its summary of the history of science. And nothing in the movie is highly controversial to anyone who has ever studied a bit of philosophy. It is just that some people react emotionally when confronted with spirituality. I agree that it conflicts with mainstream science, but mainstream science is not truth either. And the concept of mainstream science is really problematic in itself too, which is why portions of the world now uses other standards of science to promote progress. --[[User:Benjaminbruheim|Benjaminbruheim]] ([[User talk:Benjaminbruheim|talk]]) 07:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Not to speak for them, but I don’t think that’s what either Martin or Benjamin were saying, quite the opposite. The movie does not present information as "truth" in the form of "verified facts", that's why they use words and phrases like "speculate", "posit", "the possibilities", even "odd science". On the other side, to counter the movie’s speculations, we only have the opinions of the few scientists that bothered to comment on it. |
::::Not to speak for them, but I don’t think that’s what either Martin or Benjamin were saying, quite the opposite. The movie does not present information as "truth" in the form of "verified facts", that's why they use words and phrases like "speculate", "posit", "the possibilities", even "odd science". On the other side, to counter the movie’s speculations, we only have the opinions of the few scientists that bothered to comment on it. |
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Controversial scientists
The scientists interviewed for this film, by and large, are remarkable for the controversial nature of their theories. That is, what is remarkable about them is not that they are experts, but that they are at the center of controversy. They may be construed as experts, but not in the mainstream way presumed by the use of "expert". Antelan talk 06:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Anybody who lives in the 21st century knows you can get an "expert" to say absolutely posomicklutely anything. Some were fringe, perhaps, others were not. What about the guy crying about being mis-represented? He's one of the experts. Anyway, we don't have sources for controversial, but we do for expert- such as the American Chemical Society one which says the credentials were impressive. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- After looking over sources discussing all of the contributors to this movie, I can find only one who is not considered controversial or non-mainstream... and he is the one who takes umbrage at the film's misuse of his statements. For some of the others, I have quotations that are as forceful as labeling them "on the fringes of mainstream science." Fringe researchers aren't usually the type of people you would label "experts" in the lead of an article, at least not in a way that makes it seem like they are experts in what most people consider science. Antelan talk 07:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, those are the sources that are listed in this article. But it's strange - these individuals are, by and large, on the fringes of science. There are sources to back this, but none have been referenced so far in this article. This is important, insofar as this article is making them look so run-of-the-mill. When Newsweek is calling you fringe, you know you're out there. Why, then, is this article obfuscating the fact that these folks are on the fringe? Antelan talk 07:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to ask you this, but do you know the definition of ersatz? To back your claim that these folks are experts, you cited an article from the American Chemical Society that calls them ersatz scientific experts. This completely supports my point. Antelan talk 07:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- It may be moot with the changes, but I think it's easy enough to source "experts" if needed. Dreadstar † 22:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- From their promotional site? That hardly seems like a reliable source for stating that outright. --Philosophus T 23:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- There are plenty of other sources that agree with that statement, check out the Sep 10, 2004 Chicago Sun Times review by Roger Ebert, or the article by Catrina Coyle in the Aug 19, 2004 Monterey County Weekly Newspaper. As for their promotional site, yes we can use that per WP:SELFPUB. Dreadstar † 02:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Roger Ebert does not approach being a reliable source for determining scientific expertise.Kww (talk) 02:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Dreadstar, WP:SELFPUB says this type of sourcing is valid if "it does not involve claims about third parties." This is explicitly about third parties ('experts'). Shouldn't an admin know this, or at least read over it, before posting it to this page as an attempted justification? Antelan talk 02:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, first of all Antelan, I recommend you restrict your remarks to the editorial content of the article instead of making insulting, rude comments about other editors. Secondly, the site isn't referencing "third parties", it's referencing participants in the movie. It's not really "third parties" at all. I'm sure it can be argued the other way, but it's not nearly as clear cut as you seem to think it is. There are also other considerations to take into account as well, the documentary nature of the film, the obvious linkage to and from the 'expert's' webstites from the bleep website...etc. No, not clear-cut at all. Dreadstar † 05:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- There are plenty of other sources that agree with that statement, check out the Sep 10, 2004 Chicago Sun Times review by Roger Ebert, or the article by Catrina Coyle in the Aug 19, 2004 Monterey County Weekly Newspaper. As for their promotional site, yes we can use that per WP:SELFPUB. Dreadstar † 02:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- From their promotional site? That hardly seems like a reliable source for stating that outright. --Philosophus T 23:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- It may be moot with the changes, but I think it's easy enough to source "experts" if needed. Dreadstar † 22:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to ask you this, but do you know the definition of ersatz? To back your claim that these folks are experts, you cited an article from the American Chemical Society that calls them ersatz scientific experts. This completely supports my point. Antelan talk 07:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not the articles on the "experts" themselves. If it were, we could certainly say that they claim to be experts, if there are self-sources to back that. But to conflate these individuals with the movie itself is incorrect. Is there a place where we could ask other administrators for clarification? Antelan talk 19:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- There have been a slew of other admins involved on this very talk page an the article over the last few days. You can also take it to Wikipedia:Village Pump if you think it's that important. The term 'experts' is sourced and part of the movie, plus their credentials include Ph.D's and M.D.'s I can't see how that can be disputed successfully. And to be honest, it just looks more and more like an attempt to push a pov into the article. Participants in a thing are not third-parties to that thing. Using "claim" violates WP:WTA and I think anything along those lines is just an attempt to add bias to the article. The description of the movie should be true to the description provided by the makers, participants and the movie itself says; then the view of the critics can be added. Dreadstar † 19:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- A degree does not an expert make. Antelan talk 19:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have a source for that? ;D Yeah, but the degrees and the work they've done lend credence to the statement that they are 'experts', can't just cherry-pick things out of the whole picture. We should also take into consideration the context of that expertise, the context in the area in which they speak, work and have studied - in addition to the context of the movie - a movie that is the subject of this article. Dreadstar † 20:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- A degree does not an expert make. Antelan talk 19:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Haha. OK, what I will say is that what is well-sourced (not in this article, per its current slant, but in others) is the degree to which these "experts" differ from the mainstream. Some do so wildly, being labeled "fringe" by major publications. Others do so to a lesser degree. I will provide references after my flight. Antelan talk 20:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Since this has now been referenced from a different discussion, I want to point out that this portion had been archived within a week of its occurrence, and I recently de-archived it so we could continue the discussion. Now about the sources... Let me grab a few. Antelan talk 04:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Fred Alan Wolf "Two of the “teachers” in the film are identified as quantum physicists, which they are, although on the fringes of mainstream science. One, Fred Alan Wolf, is mostly an author of science books with a quasi-mystical bent" (Newsweek text available in copy here.) Antelan talk 05:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
John Hagelin "Two of the "teachers" in the film are identified as quantum physicists, which they are, although on the fringes of mainstream science. ... the other, John Hagelin (who has run for president on the Natural Law ticket), is affiliated with Maharishi University of Management, in Fairfield, Iowa, which does research on transcendental meditation." (from the same Newsweek article, supra) Antelan talk 05:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- The credentials and status of the movie paricipants is sourced by the flim itself. Also, be cautious of WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE when adding material that contradicts other sources. Dreadstar † 21:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Listing the participant's credentials
Anyone besides SA and me have an opinion? Lots of chatting in the above section about standards and guidelines, but I think the issue should probaby be settled by consensus. Dreadstar † 22:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- The edit summary was that "Dr" was an appeal to authority. If that's true, SA will immediately go over to Quackwatch and change "Dr. Thomas R. Eng, the director." Anyway, the edit was done because it was an appeal to authority to have the titles [1]. I see nothing in WP rules saying that this is necessary. It is customary to use such titles. I do seem to remember a rule about only using it the first time a person is mentioned, but I can't find it. The rule from biographies is irrelevant. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Apparently the same thing with "Stephen Barrett, M.D." in Quackwatch, and it should be changed in Stephen Barrett's own article as well. Dreadstar † 23:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This doesn't seem like an issue to be decided by consensus for this article alone. In my opinion the credentials certainly shouldn't be added in that manner in articles like this, or Quackwatch, but making the same argument for a biography, where the correct post-name credentials are useful information, seems very pointy. As for pre-name titles (again, outside of biographies), I think the issue isn't so clear: in lists, they seem rather annoying, but in the text itself, for the first mention of the name, they might be acceptable. --Philosophus T 00:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Apparently the same thing with "Stephen Barrett, M.D." in Quackwatch, and it should be changed in Stephen Barrett's own article as well. Dreadstar † 23:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that it may be best to use it the first time the name appears, then refer to that individual by their last name in other instances. But in a list where the whole name is used, along with a short summary of the history of the person, it seems right to include the pre or post titles, if for nothing besides being complete. Not sure why that would be annoying..seems like listing just the names alone would be annoying. It's possible that there may be room for variations in different types of articles, depending on the nature of the article and the relevance of the title to the subject of the article. But it would be nice to have a consistent standard across the board.
- As for it being pointy to make the same argument for a biography..I'm not sure what you mean. It says,"Postnominal letters indicating academic degrees (including honorary degrees) should not be included following the subject's name.", how is that pointy? Do you mean the guideline is pointy or am I totally misunderstanding your...um...point? :) Dreadstar † 01:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't notice the distinction made between different types of postnominal letters. --Philosophus T 13:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- However, note that the same part of the MOS also precludes use of Dr in almost all cases as well. --Philosophus T 13:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- As for it being pointy to make the same argument for a biography..I'm not sure what you mean. It says,"Postnominal letters indicating academic degrees (including honorary degrees) should not be included following the subject's name.", how is that pointy? Do you mean the guideline is pointy or am I totally misunderstanding your...um...point? :) Dreadstar † 01:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm almost sure I read somewhere that this is correct what Philosophus and others are saying. That we use the title the first time (I don't see any difference between whether it comes before or after the name), and then just the name thereafter. If the first mention is on a list, that should include the title. However, come to think of it, a list is probably a special case and should include the title to be complete.
Notice that this issue isn't one of annoyance or writing, but merely that SA doesn't like them to have titles because it makes them sound educated.
I honor Philosophus' edit here [2]. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
It's certainly honorable. But it also needs a consensus discussion at that article, not here, so I've reverted it. The ref to the WTBDWK's talk page in the edit summary brought me here, by the way. Yet another film I want to see... life's too short. What the bleep am I doing editing WP anyway? Avb 18:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Consciousness
One of the sentences in the current lead looks a bit odd. It says: "The film presents many ideas which are not supported by science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related ..."
It's hard to unpack this, but first of all, there has been a scholarly debate for hundreds of years about the role of the observer in the thing observed, a debate that intensified with attempts to understand the implications of quantum physics. So in that sense there is indeed a relationship between consciousness and quantum physics, though that's not really an accurate way of expressing the complexity of it.
It's also not clear what it would mean to say that this idea "is not supported by science." What is "science"? (Imagine a sentence that read: "This is a hairstyle not supported by hairdressing.") And which idea exactly is "science" not supporting?
Part of the problem with the film (as I understand it -- I've not seen it myself) is that it massively simplifies extremely complex issues and draws conclusions not supported by any of the scholarly debates. The problem with this article is that it's almost doing the same thing from the opposite direction. A lighter touch when it comes to the writing would help to avoid that. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 09:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please clarify what your mean by "The problem with this article is that it's almost doing the same thing from the opposite direction," as there are a number of possible permutations. Thanks. --Anthon01 (talk) 13:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've decided I need to watch this before saying any more, because I'm responding only to the way the article's written without knowing enough about the film itself. Will get back to you when I've done that. :-) SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 13:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
An excellent NPOV overview of Quantum Approaches to Consciousness can be found at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/ - The bottom line is that at present there exist philosophical conjectures linking Quantum Physics and Consciousness; but no equations or experiments (no formalism nor evidence) linking the two. It remains outside the realm of science even more than string theory. String theory has equations (formalism) and is expecting to have actual experiments that can be done when a super-colider being built is finished. Two key issues (quantum effects are too small, and it is just using one unknown to pretend to explain another unknown) that I have seen used to dismiss the idea is presented in the article this way:
- "Influential criticism of the possibility that quantum states can in fact survive long enough in the thermal environment of the brain has been raised by Tegmark (2000). He estimates the decoherence time of tubulin superpositions due to interactions in the brain to be less than 10-12 sec. Compared to typical time scales of microtubule processes of the order of milliseconds and more, he concludes that the lifetime of tubulin superpositions is much too short to be significant for neurophysiological processes in the microtubuli. In a response to this criticism, Hagan et al. (2002) have shown that a revised version of Tegmark's model provides decoherence times up to 10 to 100 μ sec, and it has been argued that this can be extended up to the neurophysiologically relevant range of 10 to 100 msec under particular assumptions of the scenario by Penrose and Hameroff.
- However, decoherence is just a tiny piece in the debate about the overall picture proposed by Penrose and Hameroff. From a philosophical perspective, their proposal has occasionally received outspoken rejection, see e.g., Grush and Churchland (1995). Indeed, their approach collects several top level mysteries, among them the relation between mind and matter itself, the ultimate unification of all physical interactions, the origin of mathematical truth, and the understanding of brain dynamics across hierarchical levels. Combining such deep issues is certainly fascinating, but it is as ambitious as it is provocative." WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Was 4.250. For me these comments illustrate why we need here in the most neutral way possible to deal with as closely as possible with what is said in the movie. The issues the movie deals with are complex, and obviously scientists are weighing in on different sides. The lay person coming to the article probably won't come to this article for accurate information on the most up to date science on these issues. They more likely are just movie goers. My thoughts anyway and thanks so much SlimVirgin for coming in. You add a breath of fresh air. (olive (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC))
- There aren't any scientists who have weighed in on the side of this nonsense being anything more than quantum quackery. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Quantum Approaches to Consciousness at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/ also says:
- "There are quite a number of accounts discussing quantum theory in relation to consciousness that adopt basic ideas of quantum theory in a purely metaphorical manner. Quantum theoretical terms such as entanglement, superposition, collapse, complementarity, and others are used without specific reference to how they are defined precisely and how they are applicable to specific situations. For instance, conscious acts are just postulated to be interpretable somehow analogously to physical acts of measurement, or correlations in psychological systems are just postulated to be interpretable somehow analogously to physical entanglement. Such accounts may provide fascinating science fiction, and they may even be important to inspire nuclei of ideas to be worked out in detail. But unless such detailed work leads beyond vague metaphors and analogies, they do not yet represent scientific progress. Approaches falling into this category will not be discussed in this contribution."
- When you talk of quantum quackery as being the quantum approach to consciousness used in this film, I am guessing that you believe it to be similar to what this article more neutrally identifies as metaphorical and thus unworthy of serious philosophical or scientific discussion. As I have not seen the movie, I lack an informed opinion as to that specific question. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is no indication that the people in the film believe they are talking metaphorically. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is no indication that the above paragraph is limiting itself to people who believe they are talking metaphorically. It is commonplace for science to be explained with analogies and for people to misunderstand that they have been told an analogy and mistake the analogy for the science when the science itself is better identified as the application of specific equations in specific ways. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is no indication that the people in the film believe they are talking metaphorically. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Quantum Approaches to Consciousness at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/ also says:
- The analogy between science and hairdressing would be apt if science were the realm of all ideas in a similar sense to hairdressing being the realm of all hairstyles. However, not all ideas fall into the realm of science. Science does not support ideas that connect events taking place on widely differing scales of time, size, and distance without mediating events. For example, take the idea that a poodle had a litter of a certain size because unobserved planets collided at that very moment. With no mediating particles travelling between the planets and the poodle, this idea is not supported by science. The poodle/planet connection in terms of distance and time/space scales is (kinda) analogous to the quantum-theory/conciousness connection presented in the film. It is an unscientific idea that may nevertheless be interesting. I think an NPOV article would label the ideas in this film strongly and correctly in the introduction. Flying Jazz (talk) 20:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please try again. I have no idea what that meant.Kww (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- At the core of SlimVirgin's criticism of a phrase from the article ("The film presents many ideas which are not supported by science") was an analogy between science dealing with ideas and hairdressers dealing with hairstyles. I disagree with her criticism and I was encouraging editors here to part ways with this analogy. The scientific community does science and the hairstyling community does hairstyling, and there are ideas that fall within and outside these realms of professional practice. If a film pretended to be about hairstyling matters and it began to present supposed hairstylists seriously discussing surgery and dentistry like some barbers of old used to do, then I would support an NPOV statement in a Wikipedia article introduction that the film presented ideas that are not supported by the hairstyling community. My memory of this film from a few years ago (which may be flawed) is that it pretended to be about scientific matters and then began to present supposed scientists seriously discussing some relationship between wishful thinking and reality like some philosophers of old used to do, so I support a similar sort of statement in the introduction. Flying Jazz (talk) 21:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, astrology is both interesting to some people and known to be totally unscientific - even when terms used in science are thrown in to appear credible. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please try again. I have no idea what that meant.Kww (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Boiling it down
Let's try to get to the point. As I see it, the bone of contention that is halting forward progress is this:
Some editors (ScienceApologist, Kww, Antelan, JzG, Rracecarr, Naturezak, Flying Jazz, etc--call them group I) believe that there are ample references to support a statement such as "Bleep makes up false things and presents them as science," and that any qualification of such a statement does a disservice to the reader by giving the impression that there is more doubt as to the quality of the science than there actually is.
Other editors (Olive, TimidGuy, Dreadstar, Nealparr, etc--group II) are in favor of a phrasing such as "Some scientists have criticized Bleep for what they say are made up false things presented as science." They believe that such a statement is the only kind that can truly be backed up by references, and that readers should be able to form their own opinion of the validity of the ideas in the movie after reading the comments of certain scientists and others, duly collected and reported without any synthesizing by editors.
Did I get this right? If so, let's try to write this one sentence--I have a feeling things will flow easily from there. Is any kind of compromise possible? Group II (and Group I for that matter), would you be amenable to a phrasing such as "mainstream scientists agree...", or "the unequivocal consensus of the scientific community is..."? These are not quite a direct statement that Bleep is wrong, but still, to my mind, leave little doubt as to the veracity of the science.Rracecarr (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think you have it basically right. The one problem to be dealt with is that our situation on the sources is that we have a handful of sources that noticed the movie. Those sources can be verified as being accurate and reliable, and we can easily turn up hundreds of sources that back them on the science, but not hundreds dealing with the movie. Thus, we cannot apply the word consensus to the movie, just the science.Kww (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I edited the article to reflect my idea of a compromise. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 22:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the constant excision from the article of mainstream critique is a pressing problem. The quotes from ACS and others offset the claim to be a documentary. It is not a documentary, it is a propaganda film by some rather questionable new-age cultists, and the article in failing to reflect that mainstream perspective is failing WP:NPOV pretty badly - it is reasonable to quote those people because they are normally very moderate voices, and it takes a special kind of fautity to provoke them to invective. Needless to say it's another science v. pseudoscience fight, and as always we are hapmered by the fact that in the main science simply points and laughs at this kind of twaddle because it is so self-evidently bogus, but as always we must strive to reflect the fact that anybody seriously involved with what the film portrays as its subject, including quantum mechanics, has either ignored the film as fatuous or has derided it in whatever venue comes to hand. Guy (Help!) 22:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Great, that's an opinion to express in the RfC. Everyone editing the intro to insert their opinion goes absolutely nowhere. You're an admin right? Shouldn't you be helping to see the RfC process work? --Nealparr (talk to me) 23:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Really, the half article are scientists pointing out that the movie is not very likely to represent science properly. And I see nothing in the article that conveys a message that the movie is factual. Where exactly is there a NPOV? I see it reflect a mainstream opinion. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 23:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have an idea to help WP:NPOV in this article, but I don't think you'd like it very much. Guy (Help!) 23:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Feel free to post it. I'm open to suggestions. --Nealparr (talk to me) 23:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- It involves a compulsory vacation for fringe and pseudoscience POV-pushers. That would improve a lot of articles. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia supports compulsory vacation for POV-pushers. The thing about that is that you have to develop consensus that an editor is pushing a non-neutral point of view. So at some point you have to build consensus whatever way you go. --Nealparr (talk to me) 05:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think the problem is the exact opposite. I see articles being written from a non-scientific rational skeptic way too often. This is not why rules against pseudoscience/fringe POV was made. Making the article "rational skeptic" POV is not NPOV. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 23:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- It involves a compulsory vacation for fringe and pseudoscience POV-pushers. That would improve a lot of articles. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Feel free to post it. I'm open to suggestions. --Nealparr (talk to me) 23:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have an idea to help WP:NPOV in this article, but I don't think you'd like it very much. Guy (Help!) 23:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- With the exception of Benjamin's edit, I'm ignoring the article itself right now because there seems to be an edit war going on there. I will say that Benjamin changing "The film presents many ideas which are not supported by science" to "The film presents many concepts which are considered unlikely according to mainstream science" does not seem to be a compromise to me. I just began posting on this talk page today so I can't talk too much about groups of editors here, but I suspect that many of the editors characterized as falling in Group I ("Bleep makes up false things and presents them as science") may actually be in a different group with me (Group zero?) and would say there is an important distinction between "False things" and "unscientific things." Many false statements still fall within the realm of science, but when ideas are presented as science that are not science, then whether they are true or false is indeterminate because, with a scientific standpoint, the ideas fall in the realm of Not even wrong. Back to the hairstylist analogy, if a film about hairstyling depicted hairstylists discussing surgical techniques, would the introduction to an NPOV article focus on whether the surgical techniques were correct or not? I don't think so. It would focus on the fact that surgery does not fall within the realm of hairstyling during this century. The three references cited by the current version of the introduction indicate that this film depicted people who seemed to be scientists discussing ideas about topics that do not fall within the realm of science. "Not supported by science" already looks like an NPOV compromise to me between group zero and group 2. Flying Jazz (talk) 23:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I proposed What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that misrepresents science as supporting New Age beliefs as an introductory sentence. Even if, by some stretch if the imagination, their beliefs are true, they are not supported by science, and to state that they are is a misrepresentation. I think it passes NPOV, and gets the major point across.Kww (talk) 00:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- well..if we were having an anti-pseudoscience rally then your introductory sentence would win. But if a fairly uninvolved editor like SlimVirgin thinks the current introduction requires a lighter touch, imagine what she would think of that opening sentence! C'mon...do you really think the opening sentence in an encyclopedia should be so confrontational? Flying Jazz (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- While I think that it is crucial that this information is conveyed in the lead, I don't think that that specific wording works in the intro sentence. The fact that it misrepresents science is lead-worthy, but the intro sentence will probably be fine if we note that it is controversial, and then expand on the controversy below. So I agree with the sentiment, just not with this exact wording. Antelan talk 00:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- What I struggled with was an alternate for the first sentence that didn't give excessive credence to the movie. "... a controversial movie that explores the link between science and New Age beliefs"? Nope, because there isn't a link to explore. All alternatives that I could come up with failed for similar reasons.Kww (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Posits? Antelan talk 00:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's an even fancier word than "pseudoscience", but accurate. Another worry is that if we don't state the lack of support in the first sentence, it's going to get lost in a morass of "criticized by some" language again.Kww (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think what's important for the first sentence is the goal attempted by the filmmaker. How about "...is a 2004 film that attempts to relate science and spirituality using documentary interviews and a fictional narrative "? Flying Jazz (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- How do you know their intent? Perhaps it "succeeded in bilking people for millions of dollars by confusing them about quantum physics." I suggest that we stay many miles away from "intent."Kww (talk) 00:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Uhhh...Some previous editor wrote copy and I am making an effort to edit it. The current version says "combines documentary interviews and a fictional narrative to posit a connection between science and spirituality" and the verb "attempt" seems more Wikipediaish to me than "posit" for an article about a film. I reasonably suspect that was their intent because the references left by a previous editor direct me to an official webpage that declares the film is a "blend of Quantum Physics, spirituality, neurology and evolutionary thought," so I suspect that even critics of the film would say that the filmmakers attempted to relate science to spirituality. However, "attempts to blend" might work better than "attempts to relate" and is more verifiable. I've already said you won the anti-pseudoscience competition. Say? Care to collaborate in editing an article for Wikipedia? Flying Jazz (talk) 01:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am cooperative. I simply don't believe that we have access to the filmmakers "goal" or "intent", so that can't be the focus of the lead sentence. We just don't know what it is. We can only describe what they actually did, and we need to keep that in mind.Kww (talk) 01:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, the discussion was in regards to the filmmaker's stated intent, not about some attempt to read their minds or divine what lies behind the scenes. Wikipedia needs to report what they have said thier intent was. Dreadstar † 03:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps "... that suggests a connection between science and New Age beliefs." I'm not partial to any of this, just lobbing verbs out there. Antelan talk 01:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I prefer posits. Kww (talk) 12:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I believe it is meant to be entertainment. At least Brian Josephson mentioned that in passing somewhere. However, I do feel that the "science" in the movie is really "fringe science" and IMO any science, true or not, any method, qualifies as science. It is just not mainstream science. That is why I feel this qualification is important. Even astrology, can be considered science in that it is knowledge; but it is not mainstream, hard science, or true. I guess I just hate the word "science" used as if it was a singular concept. Well, it can be actually useful for primitive societies. :) Benjaminbruheim (talk) 01:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- With regards to this article, what are you suggesting? Antelan talk 01:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, messed up my edit. I am awaiting more discussion, but mentioning both that it is accused of "misrepresenting" or "using science in a problematic fashion" in addition to saying that the movie "presents claims mainstream science find unlikely" should cover all bases. The act of mixing science and spirituality has implications that science has huge problems dealing with. For example the quantum-consciousness link is something that has been discussed a lot in science throughout ages, and is known for being an "unanswerable question". The debunking depends on what interpretation you subscribe to. So, absolute claims are problematic, but it is fair to call it very unlikely. :) Perhaps I am rambling, but this would probably satisfy those who object to skeptical POV. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- With regards to this article, what are you suggesting? Antelan talk 01:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- How do you know their intent? Perhaps it "succeeded in bilking people for millions of dollars by confusing them about quantum physics." I suggest that we stay many miles away from "intent."Kww (talk) 00:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think what's important for the first sentence is the goal attempted by the filmmaker. How about "...is a 2004 film that attempts to relate science and spirituality using documentary interviews and a fictional narrative "? Flying Jazz (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's an even fancier word than "pseudoscience", but accurate. Another worry is that if we don't state the lack of support in the first sentence, it's going to get lost in a morass of "criticized by some" language again.Kww (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Posits? Antelan talk 00:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- What I struggled with was an alternate for the first sentence that didn't give excessive credence to the movie. "... a controversial movie that explores the link between science and New Age beliefs"? Nope, because there isn't a link to explore. All alternatives that I could come up with failed for similar reasons.Kww (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I proposed What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that misrepresents science as supporting New Age beliefs as an introductory sentence. Even if, by some stretch if the imagination, their beliefs are true, they are not supported by science, and to state that they are is a misrepresentation. I think it passes NPOV, and gets the major point across.Kww (talk) 00:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
<outdent> I responded awhile back to an RfC, and swoop by every once in awhile to catch the latest episode in what's certainly become one of the most childish and enduring temper tantrums in all of wikipedia. These are my recommendations for settling the remaining disputes: a) nobody who has seen the film should edit or comment, b) nobody who has already formed an opinion about this film based on what they heard from their friends, their New Age Guru, or the Skeptic blogs, or the Oprah show, or Bullshit! or anything else of that ilk should edit or comment, c) nobody who can't tell the difference between his or her own bias and what the published sources wrote on the page should edit or comment, and d) anyone else left, who can actually and honestly read a source and knows how to contribute properly to articles here at wikipedia should come to the rescue, leaving everyone else who feels so passionately about this movie to carry on as they have been at the nearest special interest messageboard of their choice. If the shoe fits, ... well, yes -indeed it does then. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just arrived here today, and I agree strongly with your "c" and "d." As for "a" and "b," I disagree just as strongly. If knowledgeable opinionated people can create Wikipedia articles about important political matters then they should be able to do so about a silly little movie! Flying Jazz (talk) 01:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
RfC clean up
I'm lost and the talk page is a mess. Can someone more familiar with the RfC reformat it below so we can look at it from the perspective of finishing it up? --Nealparr (talk to me) 23:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Rebuttal
The editors of the movie released a rebuttal, and it could be a useful primary source. At least it sheds light to a few questions posed above. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 03:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it sheds light for me that they're not a reliable source on spirituality at least, whatever their ability to present quantum mechanics correctly. I'm not a physicist, but I do understand mystic traditions and have a fairly good understanding of Aldous Huxley and the Perennial Philosophy.
- The concepts we present in "Bleep" can be found in Taoism, Buddhism, Yoga, the Alice Bailey material, Kabballah, Theosophy, Unitarianism, Christian Science, and dozens of other religions, spiritual disciplines and paths. This explains why audience members from all these spiritual backgrounds, and others, embrace our film as a reflection of their own teachings.
- Also known as The Perennial Wisdom, or The Perennial Philosophy, these teachings have been defined as "a body of knowledge designed to promote a spiritual understanding of our lives as human souls incarnate." It’s been around forever.
- That's complete BS. The idea presented in the film is that spirit can be reduced to matter through quantum mechanics. Anyone the least bit familiar with the world's wisdom traditions can point out that the Perennial Philosophy is based on the hierarchy of the Great Chain of Being, or nested spheres of existence. Most commonly this is referred to in the West as body/mind/spirit, but Eastern philosophies have dozens of levels in the hierarchy. They're right when they say the Perennial Philosophy shows up in every culture in some way or another, but no wisdom tradition would ever reduce spirit (always at the top of the hierarchy) to gross matter (always at the bottom of the hierarchy). That's pure flatland New Age postmodernism.
- Add pseudo-mysticism to the list along with pseudoscience. --Nealparr (talk to me) 05:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- <personal insecurity>The funny thing is, I understand what you mean when you say 'pseudo-mysticism' despite the fact I've never seen that phrase before.</personal insecurity> It's interesting - perhaps not surprising, with the benefit of hindsight - that the movie is controversial on multiple fronts. Antelan talk 07:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Add pseudo-mysticism to the list along with pseudoscience. --Nealparr (talk to me) 05:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's kind of a word I thought I made up, but Google shows it's been used before in connection with Bleep [3]. I wouldn't use it in the article, but that's exactly what it is. --Nealparr (talk to me) 07:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Resource on spiritual views
With all the talk about the rejection of the film by mainstream science, it may have been overlooked that mainstream spirituality doesn't really accept the ideas either. Contrary to the film maker's assertion that the concepts in the film "can be found in Taoism, Buddhism, Yoga, the Alice Bailey material, Kabballah, Theosophy, Unitarianism, Christian Science, and dozens of other religions, spiritual disciplines and paths", it's really only found in New Age circles. An excellent critical review of the film from the mainstream spirituality side can be found in "Taking the Quantum Leap... Too Far?" an article in What is Enlightenment? Magazine.
Great quote:
...even the founding fathers of quantum physics/mechanics—Max Planck, Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrodinger, Sir Arthur Eddington, et al.—who were all self-proclaimed mystics, strongly rejected the notion that mysticism and physics were describing the same realm. The attempt to unify them is, in the words of Planck, “founded on a misunderstanding, or, more precisely, on a confusion of the images of religion with scientific statements. Needless to say, the result makes no sense at all.” Eddington was even more explicit: “We should suspect an intention to reduce God to a system of differential equations. That fiasco at any rate must be avoided. However much the ramifications of physics may be extended by further scientific discovery, they cannot from their very nature [impinge upon] the background in which they have their being.”
And there's the crux of the confusion. Quantum physics deals with the abstract, symbolic analysis of the physical world—space, time, matter, and energy—even down to the subtlest level, the quantum vacuum. Mysticism deals with the direct apprehension of the transcendent Source of all those things. The former is a mathematical system involving intensive intellectual study, and the latter is a spiritual discipline involving the transcendence of the intellectual mind altogether. It's apparently only a very loose interpretation of physics, and a looser interpretation of mysticism, that allows for their surprising convergence—and opens the door to the even wilder idea that by drinking some of this quantum mystical brew, you'll be able to create your own reality.
Not sure if anyone is interested in adding something along these lines when the article becomes unlocked, but I personally feel it is an important point of view. --Nealparr (talk to me) 06:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- This perhaps is more relevant to the quantum mysticism article. But I notice the movie is more along Consciousness causes collapse which is an inconclusive philosophical discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjaminbruheim (talk • contribs) 00:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- If it were about the mathematics of CCC, it'd be a boring film. The reason viewers latched onto it is because of the New Age ideas presented in the film: we create our own reality, everyone is One, and so on. It is a movie about quantum mysticism, not quantum physics. --Nealparr (talk to me) 00:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
RfC: Lead section discussion
- There has been an ongoing dispute about the neutrality and contents of the lead section of this film article.
- Several editors have worked on multiple versions of the lead in attempts to reach consensus, but without success. Comments on the most neutral and most appropriate version for the lead to an article would be appreciated.
New version proposals
V. Rracecarr
Reactions to Bleep have been mixed. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received, playing in 200 theaters across the US and grossing over $10 million. It attracted the attention of scientists as well; the scientific community has criticized the film for inappropriately applying quantum mechanical principles and concluding, erroneously, that human consciousness directly influences the physical world.Rracecarr (talk) 19:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Have been convinced by Kww that paragraph needs a straightforward statement that the science is wrong.Rracecarr (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
or (working toward verifiability per Dreadstar)
- Reactions to Bleep have been mixed. It was well received by many members of the New Age spiritual community, playing in 200 theaters across the US and grossing over $10 million. Presenting many ideas not supported by science, the film attracted the attention of scientists as well, a number of whom have criticized it as pseudoscientific, saying that it inappropriately applies quantum mechanical principles and thereby concludes, erroneously, that human consciousness directly influences the physical world. Rracecarr (talk) 03:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Comments V.R
V.Anthon01
- "Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received (needs a little more here). Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for promulgating pseudoscience concepts, like a relationship between consciousness and quantum mechanics, and modification of ice crystals by thought." Anthon01 (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
or for those not comfortable with the perjorative
- "Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for many ideas which are not supported by science, such as a relationship between consciousness and quantum mechanics, and modification of ice crystals by thought." Anthon01 (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
V.olive - Version A with possible additions/addition
- Reactions to Bleep have been mixed. The film, a moderately inexpensive, low budget production played in 200 theaters across the US, and grossed over $10 million. The film has been criticized for making connections between new age, spiritual concepts and established scientific theories. These critics say that the connections, speculations and conclusions in the film appear to be based on scientific understanding, but in reality are not.
or
- Among the New Age spiritual communities, the film was well received. or In the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received.The film has been criticized for making connections between new age, spiritual concepts and established scientific theories. These critics say that the connections, speculations and conclusions made in the film appear to be based on scientific understanding, but in reality are not.(olive (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC))
V.awotter - My idea of a simplified concise lead section
What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that seeks to explore the relationship between spirituality and science. The film combines special effects and documentary interviews with the fictional story of the life and struggles of a deaf photographer (Marlee Matlin).
Considered a moderate to low budget film, Bleep grossed over $10 million dollars, a success some see as the result of grassroots and guerrilla marketing to members of New Age spiritual groups. [1][2] Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. Bleep features extensive interviews with the school's controversial director, Judy Zebra Knight.[3] Knight and others interviewed in the film explain their views of the supposed impact of human consciousness on physics and chemistry.
Some members of the scientific community have criticized the film, believing it supports what they consider unscientific theories such as quantum mysticism, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.[4][5][6]David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to misrepresent his views, making him appear to agree with the ideas presented in the film.[7]
Refs
(Named refs following unscientific theory that appear later in body of text are remarked out in text)
V.Kww
What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that misrepresents science as supporting New Age beliefs. The film combines special effects and interviews with the story of the life and struggles of a fictional deaf photographer, played by Marlee Matlin. Considered a moderate to low budget film, Bleep grossed over $10 million dollars, a success some see as the result of grassroots and guerrilla marketing to members of New Age spiritual groups. Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. Bleep features extensive interviews with the school's controversial director, Judy Zebra Knight. Knight and others interviewed in the film explain their views of the supposed impact of human consciousness on physics and chemistry. Members of the scientific community that have commented on the film have criticized the film for supporting unscientific theories such as quantum mysticism, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to misrepresent his views, making him appear to agree with the ideas presented in the film. Kww (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
V.SlimVirgin
I'm sorry to see that was reverted. I'll post it here as requested. This is instead of the current final paragraph of the lead:
The film presents ideas about the relationship between quantum physics and consciousness — such as that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought — that have been criticized by members of the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins."[8] David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.[7]
- SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- POV via faint criticism. "ideas ... that have been criticized by the scientific community" holds out the possibility that they are correct. There isn't such a possibility, and we have sufficient sourcing that we don't have to pretend that there is. Minimizes the "Physics Today" letter, which are reviewed ... not equivalent to a standard "Letter to the Editor." Kww (talk) 16:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed revision of first part of sentence:
- "The film presents ideas positing a relationship between quantum physics and consciousness — ..."
- I like this version a lot and would support it. I agree with Fyslee, though, it needs some sort of rewording to reflect that it is an interpretation of QM, not a given idea in QM. Here's my shot at it: "The film presents ideas about [a] relationship between quantum physics and consciousness [found in some interpretations of quantum mechanics]" <- or something like that. --Nealparr (talk to me) 19:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was sorry to see that it was reverted also. IMO, your version is encyclopedic. Hence the problem with these pages were pseudoscience may be an issue. Perhaps you will persist in helping bring sanity to these topics. Resolving this here may help resolve it in other similar pages. Some folks here will not accept the removal of the term pseudoscience. For some it is a mantra.
- Anthon01 (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I was tempted to rename this one SlimVersion..;) Dreadstar † 21:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Issue - that have been criticized by members of the scientific community is true, but doesn't convey the degree to which this movie's ideas lack any support within that community. Antelan talk 21:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
SV V.2
Per Nealparr's suggestion:
"The film presents ideas positing a relationship between quantum physics and consciousness — such as that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought — that have been criticized by many members of the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins."[8] David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.[7]
SV V.2 discussion
How's this appeal to everyone? Dreadstar † 00:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Take out the word "many." If there were "many" there would be better sources. But overall, it looks fine to me. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Um, that was like the only change Martinphi : ) Many -- amounting to a large but indefinite number;more than a few, more than several is supported by the sources already in the article. If it requires digging up more sources to support it, there's plenty, especially considering the example used in this sentence is the segment on thought influencing water. That's a form of psychokinesis and I'm sure you're familiar with the number of detractors on that topic. --Nealparr (talk to me) 00:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- The other important point to consider on sourcing this statement is that it's talking directly about ideas presented in the film, not the film itself. While the film may have been ignored by the greater scientific community, the idea that thought can influence water (PK) has been covered in science, through parapsychology, and has gained no acceptance in mainstream science. --Nealparr (talk to me) 00:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Change "have been criticized by many members of the scientific community" to "have no scientific support."Kww (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- That would be wrong. However, Kww, we agree that this edit [4] would be good.
"The film presents ideas, for example, that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought, that posit a relationship between quantum physics and consciousness, and that have no identified support in the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins."[8] David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview so that he appears to agree with the ideas presented.[7]
and another version... lets choose one so we can finish this and get on with something else.....Yes, I am resorting to begging.(olive (talk) 02:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC))
The film presents many concepts that have been criticized by members of the scientific community and are considered unlikely according to sources in mainstream science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and can be influenced by thought. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins."[8] David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.[7]
Extent of scientific criticism
Is there a reliable source for this lack of support? Dreadstar † 22:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, the onus would be on those who suggest that there is support to provide such evidence. Antelan talk 22:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- We've established that the critics are reliable, and no one has found a credible proponent of the science in the movie ... I don't know why you feel you need any more.Kww (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Who is suggesting there is support? Antelan, you're the one who just said "but doesn't convey the degree to which this movie's ideas lack any support within that community.". Source it, then. I'm afraid the onus is on you.
- Yes Kww, but just because those scientific critics ae reliable and no 'credible proponent' has been found, doesn't mean we don't need to properly source views and who has those views in relation to the movie. WP:V "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Dreadstar † 22:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- We tried that, and then you got upset that we had too many citations in the lead. Don't argue in circles. The sources we have are reliable, as unanimous as sources can get, and they all say that the movie is "tosh", "balderdash", and "pseudoscience." It's sourced. There is no valid reason, either in logic or policy, to avoid a statement that simply says "What the Bleep is a movie that misrepresents science." , with full citations if that's what you want. That's what is necessary, not some mealy-mouthed "been criticized by members of the scientific community"Kww (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's a strawman argument Kww. There was never a source provided that shows either: A) the scientific community as a whole has spoken on the movie, or B) there is no support in the scientific community for the movie. Dreadstar † 23:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- It is not a strawman. The scientific community has not spoken as a whole on the movie ... those members that have have used verifiable science to do so. The onus to find support is on you ... we've looked, it doesn't seem to exist, and as Antelan points out, WP:FRINGE requires us to assume that there is no support. Stop raising this argument without evidence. Unless you can find support, there is no support. If you will get past this issue, we can build an article. If you cannot get past it, we might as well delete and salt it.Kww (talk) 23:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's a strawman argument Kww. There was never a source provided that shows either: A) the scientific community as a whole has spoken on the movie, or B) there is no support in the scientific community for the movie. Dreadstar † 23:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- We tried that, and then you got upset that we had too many citations in the lead. Don't argue in circles. The sources we have are reliable, as unanimous as sources can get, and they all say that the movie is "tosh", "balderdash", and "pseudoscience." It's sourced. There is no valid reason, either in logic or policy, to avoid a statement that simply says "What the Bleep is a movie that misrepresents science." , with full citations if that's what you want. That's what is necessary, not some mealy-mouthed "been criticized by members of the scientific community"Kww (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes Kww, but just because those scientific critics ae reliable and no 'credible proponent' has been found, doesn't mean we don't need to properly source views and who has those views in relation to the movie. WP:V "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Dreadstar † 22:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, Dreadstar. From WP:FRINGE: If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing, it should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance Well, this article does have reliable sources that comment on the ideas in this movie, and they reject the ideas. If these sources are not enough for you, you will have to find others that support your views. Antelan talk 23:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is a film, not an article on quantum mechanics. Dreadstar † 23:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's also just a lead, not an article. It just needs to summarize the critical responses in the article, which in turn summarize the sources supporting them. All of that taken together, without any sort of synthesis, spells out a degree of response... "that have been criticized by many members of the scientific community" (sans-bolding, of course). Many is a non-number-specific word, but it accurately reflects the degree to which this film has not gained acceptance by members of science. Make that change to SlimVirgin's proposal and see if it gains support. --Nealparr (talk to me) 23:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Policy still applies despite your preferences. Furthermore, your statement would be an argument in favor of relaxing, not tightening, the standards of scientific consensus in this article. Antelan talk 01:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is a film, not an article on quantum mechanics. Dreadstar † 23:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, Dreadstar. From WP:FRINGE: If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing, it should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance Well, this article does have reliable sources that comment on the ideas in this movie, and they reject the ideas. If these sources are not enough for you, you will have to find others that support your views. Antelan talk 23:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
So what is the consensus on this issue? Do we put in a lead section statement that is not verifiable per WP:V, yet apparently tells the truth as some editors here believe it to be? If so, how should that lead sentence be structured? Do we just out-and-out say, as has been suggested, that there is "no support from the scientific community" for some or all of the ideas expressed in this movie? How do we make a short, concise statement to that effect? Dreadstar † 23:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Just a question- but tell me what makes all of the proponents in the movie not credible- besides that they are proponents?
"WP:FRINGE requires us to assume that there is no support." Absolutely wrong- it requires us, rather, to not assume anything. Look at Antelan's quote.
What we need is a sentence like this: "WTBDWK does not draw a clear line between valid representations of science, and speculations which some scientists have criticized as pseudoscience, for example that there is a connection between consciousness and the quantum wave function collapse" I guess I got the terms right? ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- It should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance seems pretty direct to me. And yes, supporting WTB does pretty much blow your credibility, but it wouldn't be fair to use that as a standard. Can you identify a proponent of the science that is is not associated with a fringe organisation like the Institute of Noetic Sciences or Maharishi University of Management? One that actually could be considered credible on the topic of quantum mechanics?Kww (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think the so-called fringe proponents are more relevant than physicists to this movie. It is after all just speculation, and the movie doesn't present it as truth. The physics talked about in the movie is speculative, but not directly wrong. Under a Copenhagen interpretation, which is mainstream, it can be argued to be wrong. Your request is like finding a supporter of the green party from the ruling party of US. But Brian Josephson has supported the movie. Besides, mainstream science has no opinion on spiritual matters. I think the movie is fairly interesting and brave, although it could have been better. The criticism seems to come from people who subscribe to strict materialistic philosophy. Which is not weird considering the movie tries to unite spirituality and science. Perhaps the claim are unverified, but the only way it could be considered "wrong" is if there are specific counterclaims. All we have got is the opinions from some scientists. Opinions! Benjaminbruheim (talk) 04:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- You know, that is a point we haven't really talked about, that the movie doesn't present it as truth. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- My opinion, since you asked for it, is that your post exemplifies why this movie description needs to closely follow WP:FRINGE guidelines. For instance, you say both "mainstream science has no opinion on spiritual matters" and "the movie tries to unite spirituality and science", which reinforces the notion that this movie is far astray from the mainstream in presenting scientific claims. Your suggestion that the movie doesn't present this information as true is interesting. If that's the case, we need to make it very clear that nobody, not even the movie's creators, actually holds this stuff to be true. Antelan talk 06:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Not all science is mainstream. I prefer to think of science as "body of knowledge" and this includes all kinds of discussions and philosophy. The movie is highly critical of dogmatic materialistic science, and this is what is considered authoritarian and generally called "science" in the US. And are you trying to raise a WP:POINT? Anyone who is slightly interested in science and how science progresses know that speculation is part of the scientific process. To frame it from the view you are suggesting is to impose the POV of authoritarian positivist materialism. Fact is that a lot of what is said in the movie is also true, for example its summary of the history of science. And nothing in the movie is highly controversial to anyone who has ever studied a bit of philosophy. It is just that some people react emotionally when confronted with spirituality. I agree that it conflicts with mainstream science, but mainstream science is not truth either. And the concept of mainstream science is really problematic in itself too, which is why portions of the world now uses other standards of science to promote progress. --Benjaminbruheim (talk) 07:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Not to speak for them, but I don’t think that’s what either Martin or Benjamin were saying, quite the opposite. The movie does not present information as "truth" in the form of "verified facts", that's why they use words and phrases like "speculate", "posit", "the possibilities", even "odd science". On the other side, to counter the movie’s speculations, we only have the opinions of the few scientists that bothered to comment on it.
- This isn't an article about a fringe science, it's an article about a movie that speculates, asks questions, and is meant to “make you think.” WP:FRINGE cannot be applied to this, much less "followed closely" as if this article was on a subject like Time Cube. Even if this were a scientific article, the self-admitted “speculation” in the movie puts it beyond that limitation. WP:V and WP:NPOV apply, and they should not be infringed upon by WP:FRINGE for this subject..
- ^ What the Bleep do We Know!? IMDb.com
- ^ What the Bleep Do We Know!? - Official site whatthebleep.com
- ^ Review of Melton, J. Gordon Finding Enlightenment: Ramtha's School of Ancient Wisdom. Beyond Words Publishing Inc. 1998 ISBN 1-885223-61-7
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was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b c d e Mone, Gregory (October 2004). "Cult Science: Dressing up mysticism as quantum physics". Popular Science. Retrieved 2006-11-29.
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