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This page under article probation
All edits to this page by all editors are now under 1RR. See the link above for details. SirFozzie (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
- For those not familiar with the concept, see WP:1RR: No more than one revert in a 24hr period is permitted (and anyone who waits 24hrs and 1 minute before making the same revert will not be looked upon favorably). Rockpocket 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
New Editor
Hello, I'm new here and I'd like to edit this article. I can see it's been fairly contentious for a while and it looks like a reasonably balanced article as a result of all the interventions and argument but in my honest opinion it does need a little tweaking to tidy it up.
I'd also like to find a mentor because I know how emotional any discussion involving the Irish Troubles can be and I don't want anyone accusing me of being partisan.
I'd like to start by addressing two specific issues. The first is that the section called "IRA Military Campaign" seems to be a misnomer and should be changed to reflect the fact that the IRA's splinter groups were also involved and to include any information on attacks by Loyalist organisations (surely there must have been some?). Perhaps it could be retitled "Paramilitary Attacks on the UDR"? The other issue is that there seems to be a lot of sentences beginning with the words "John Potter says" or "Potter says that". I have the Potter book and it is clear that he is the official historian of this regiment, appointed by the British Ministry of Defence and that he had access to all documentation. Some of it must have been very sensitive because the official history has not been released by the Ministry of Defence but they did give himand his publisher the right to release the book after examining it and editing it so it should be taken as properly sourced and edited by official sources. Perhaps a section could be added about Potter which details his military experience, UDR experience, appointment as official historian and anything else which could be explanatory and helpful. In any case the references for each piece of information sourced to Potter should be sufficient to comply with Wikipedia rules and stop a reader becoming confused as to the source. Then the sentences can be properly written without constant reference to him.
I'd really appreciate any help, advice and/or comment from any interested person. This is a record of a fairly unique regiment in terms of British and Irish history and I believe the information on it should be given to interested readers in an informative way which doesn't display the opinions of any of the Irish factions, past or present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SonofSetanta (talk • contribs) 14:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't sign - this is my first post and I didn't know I had to. Also, does anyone know how to archive the previous discussion? It's pretty out of date now and it would be very nice to start with a clean sheet. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- I suggest you read the archive as this was discussed before and we don't need the Thunderous sound of editors on this articles bickering over attribution. Mo ainm~Talk 19:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the warm welcome and also to the two people who archived the discussion and did some editing. I intend to read through the article carefully and correct any grammatical or punctuation errors first, unless anyone has any objections? As part of that I want to remove all these references to "so and so says" - which predominantly seems to be "Potter". The issue there seems to be that there are only about two histories of the UDR (unless anyone knows of any others?) and they are going to be relied upon heavily and obviously someone has felt that the entire article (wrongly) depends on them. It doesn't read like a sensible historical document. I think I need to work round this but in some way point out to the reader that there are only one or two histories. Perhaps a small section detailing John Potter and other UDR historians? I have another book here by an English journalist and I'm sure I've seen references to it here. Something I think really needs to be avoided is anything that looks like it's come from a source which could have a strong opinion from any of the protagonists?
Does anyone disagree?SonofSetanta (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I have read the archive of this discussion by the way and I can see exactly what you mean. There are always strong views about Irish matters. I see the same names cropping up again and again and I've read some of the arbitration reports. I'd really like to avoid any of that bitterness which is one of the reasons why I want to take things slowly - so I don't offend anyone. Another reason is that I don't want this work to be an advertisement for the UDR or for any of the Irish political or terrorist groups. Just plain fact. In the event of dispute I don't intend to get into an argument, I'll bring my mentor in or find someone else who can adjudicate the point before moving onto the next one. As it stands the article seems very well balanced. I don't want that to change.SonofSetanta (talk) 15:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
What about the following statement to be put at the top of the "History" section?
"The official history of the Ulster Defence Regiment has not been released by the British Ministry of Defence. The official historian, Major John Potter (former Adjutant of the 3rd Battalion) has released a history entitled "A Testament to Courage" which was edited and approved by the Ministry of Defence. This article draws heavily upon that book for dates and facts."
Does it sound twee? Does it fit in with how Wikipedia want articles to be written? Would it suffice to remove all the references to Potter and just leave the links to the reference section below?SonofSetanta (talk) 16:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
John Potter
With regard to the Potter book while it was supplied to the MOD before publication (at their request) it "does not imply MOD endorsement of any part of the book, nor the unofficial sources refered to." So it is not an official MOD history so the attribution to Potter is correct as they are his views. Mo ainm~Talk 16:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also in the preface he states "I must also emphasize the the opinions expressed, were they are not attributed, are my own..." Mo ainm~Talk 17:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is there a reference to support the suggestion that Major John Potter is the official historian of the UDR? Should a reference tag be added? Is it possible to sort out this ref, i.e. page number, publisher, etc?--Domer48'fenian' 20:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't for a minute suggest that "A Testament to Courage" is the official UDR history but in the preface it does state that Potter is the "official UDR historian, at the invite of the British MOD". It goes on to say that the book was proof-read and edited by the MOD before permission was given to publish. Potter apparantly was given unrestricted access to the UDR documentation, including log books from comcens, patrol logs etc. I think for that reason he needs to be given credence. The way the article is written at the moment I don't think there's very much to change but unless there's a sort of explanatory note to say who Potter is it's filled with references to a man who no-one will know. I think you could view Potter's account in much the same way as Kipling's "History of the Irish Guards in the Great War". Kipling wasn't involved at all but through access to papers etc he was able to produce a good history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SonofSetanta (talk • contribs) 15:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The link I gave to prove that higher pitched voices are better on radio is to an Air Corps site. It's an official publication and the best I could find on the day. The page it's on is 31.6.2-7 and it says "The voice should be pitched slightly higher than normal. Female operators, and those with a naturally higher pitched voice, may not need to increase their pitch noticeably." Can anyone suggest how that could be put inline better than the way I did it? SonofSetanta (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- See WP:SYN because a women "may not need to increase their pitch noticeably." doesn't back up what is claimed in the article. Mo ainm~Talk 15:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also nowhere in the preface does it say that Potter is the "official historian of the UDR" Mo ainm~Talk 15:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
In the preface to Potter's book, which I've now got in fron of me he says he was "deputed by the Colonels Commandant" to compile an historical archive which, classed as "official papers" is now held by the MOD. On page 117 he says that (regarding women) "With their higher pitched voices they made excellent signallers".
There's thing called RSVP (rhythm, speed, volume, pitch, which radio people are supposed to use, military or civil. Finding UK military training manuals to illustrate this doesn't seem to be easy but here's one for the US Coastguard which further assists a reader in understanding the need to raise pitch when speaking on the radio. http://volunteerlifesavers.org/forums/thread/74.aspx The object of this being that women are naturally higher pitched and take to radio communications well. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- I have the book in front of me also, so you agree nowhere does it state that Potter is/was the offical UDR historian. Mo ainm~Talk 15:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
If he was invited by the Colonels Commandant I'd say that was official. In addition his history is in the care of the Ministry of Defence as "offical docouments". I'm aware there has been a lot of fuss on this article over wee things like this however so, given that his book is sub titled "The Regimental History of the Ulster Defence Regiment" I think no-one would lose any sleep if he was referred to as "The Regimental Historian". I note he was also Adjutant of the 3rd Battalion and Regimental Secretary at one point, so he's not what you'd called "ill-informed". Maybe that could be included as well.
Let's not make too much of this. Let's find a wee line that could be included which explains why his name keeps coming up.SonofSetanta (talk) 16:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- The reason his name keeps coming up is because they are his claims, and he states that in his book as I said above "I must also emphasize the the opinions expressed... are my own..." Also not trying to be a smart arse but it doesn't matter if you "...say that was official" as wikipedia works on reliable sources and the source you are using states that they are the authors opinions and not an official MOD history. Mo ainm~Talk 16:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say it was official. It's in the Potter book that he was invited to compile the history by the Colonels Commandant and that it is classed as "official documents" and held by the Ministry of Defence. You have to ask yourself I suppose, what authority do Colonels Commandant have? Is a request made by them an official one? He goes on to say that where opinions are expressed they are "attributed" except where he gives his own opinion based on his experiences in the regiment. After all, if someone has experienced something first hand are they not entitled to put it on paper as authentic? I don't think you're being a "smart-arse" but I do think we're having rather a lot of dialogue about a regimental history. If we're dealing with facts, like women being naturally better at radio voice procedure because of their high pitched voices what can be the issue? It's repeated elsewhere as I have shown you so why would Mr Potter be wrong? Also, if he has had access to War Diaries, Comcen and Patrol logs (plus God knows what else) I'm sure it can be taken as read that when he states something as fact - it is fact. That's the purpose of regimental histories; to establish what happened, where it happened and why. I've read several other regimental histories on Wikipedia and it seems to be accepted there that if someone writes a regimental history based on official documents and personal experience that it's accurate - except for private opinion.
What's the alternative here. Does the articles remain with this mystery man "Potter" constantly referred to or can something be entered to tell someone who knows nothing about military history who Potter is and why he is qualified to write anything about the Ulster Defence Regiment?SonofSetanta (talk) 16:57, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Glad that is sorted! So Potter is not the "official historian" of the UDR and his book is not the "official history." --Domer48'fenian' 15:25, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
There's no need for a debate on this here since the question has been raised at the appropriate forum. It is always best to get outside views wherever possible. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have now also raised these issues at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Help_Required_With_Source and Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Help_Required_With_Source. Hopefully I can get a definitive view from people who are very into this attribution thing. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Information deleted without discussion.
It was my opinion that parts of an article shouldn't be deleted unless there was good reason to do so. Perhaps the person (One Night in Hackney) could put his discussion points here where there seem to be several interested parties before making deletions of previously acceptable and to me anyway, interesting material. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Could I also point out respectfully that the classification of this article is B Class. Removal of large swathes of information which were included when it was classified may result in the article being downgraded. Perhaps the gentleman/woman might be kind enough to explain why he thought the information wasn't necessary? SonofSetanta (talk) 14:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I reverted because the material fails WP:V, WP:OR and in at least one case WP:BLP. Mo ainm~Talk 17:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- As Mo ainm points out, the material fails WP:V, WP:OR and most definitely WP:BLP in at least one case. The argument about class is specious, as my edits improved the article. Removing material that violates policy is an improvement, and since you are already active on various pages about sources, and indeed on the talk page of the relevant policy, you might want to familiarise yourself with WP:BURDEN. In case you want to try and argue lack of time, you chose to remove a tag that had been in place for over a year without addressing the problems with the material (which are that the source doesn't mention the UDR, thus making it original research, and an unreliable self-published source being used for material other than what is mentionedhere particularly as it included claims about a living person which is right out) so I simply removed the policy violating material as is my right *at any time*. You do not have the right to revert to add back unsourced material or original research, WP:BURDEN is quite clear on that. As for the "Irish Freedom Fighters" revert, my summary correctly points out that Potter does not say they are republican, and the name has also been used by loyalists meaning you cannot even assume they are republican because of the name. So including them in a paragraph dealing with republicans is totally misleading, and there is zero point including it elsewhere as then it simply becomes a "UDR member allegedly lost his weapon" story and that's already covered by other text.
- And finally, in case I didn't make it clear before, I don't need your permission to remove any material that violates policy. You don't own this article, and I'll remove material as I see fit if it's a policy violation. I note you seem to think editing this article is a one-way street in which you have permanent right-of-way, in that you can make whatever additions you feel like yet nobody else is allowed to change anything. Well that isn't happening, so get used to it. 2 lines of K303 12:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Reliability of Potter
It would appear that the consensus is that Major John Potter is a reliable source when it comes to quoting facts, figures or if his opinion is confirmed by another historical sourceWikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Major_John_Potter_-_is_he_a_reliable_source.3F . What I intend to do now is go through the article and remove un-needed attribution to this man to make the article look a bit more pleasant to the eye. It doesn't really involve much change.
I still feel that Potter needs to have a section, or at least a few words of explanation, so that readers know who he is and why he's qualified to state anything and why his own opinion (in some cases) may carry some weight. Where his own opinion is obvious I intend to leave it attributed to him.
There's no reason why this editing should be confined to me and I would appreciate any input or involvement from others. If I do something that seems out of place I would appreciate a heads up. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
MOD reference used in the lead
This did not source "It was the only regiment of the British Army to have been operational from the date of its formation until its amalgamation", and its removal was wholly correct. I wil admit to only having read the page in full five times so may have inadvertantly overlooked the piece of text that sources that exact sentence, so pipe up if I missed it. 2 lines of K303 12:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Difficulty
I'm having difficulty understanding the logic of some of this so I have made a request for third party intervention.SonofSetanta (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)