AndyTheGrump (talk | contribs) →Primary sources: another good reason not to use encyclopaedias as sources |
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:::Do you think any of the following may be "uncivil": repeatedly deleting accurately cited, sourced info. Starting a revert war and then complaining about it. Being right just because you were the first to cry about it. Threatening with unspecified sanctions. Blocking without any real reason. Making poorly veiled threats as you did in your "welcome". How about the following, crowning incivility: learning (incompetently) on the job. [[Special:Contributions/68.198.135.130|68.198.135.130]] ([[User talk:68.198.135.130|talk]]) 00:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
:::Do you think any of the following may be "uncivil": repeatedly deleting accurately cited, sourced info. Starting a revert war and then complaining about it. Being right just because you were the first to cry about it. Threatening with unspecified sanctions. Blocking without any real reason. Making poorly veiled threats as you did in your "welcome". How about the following, crowning incivility: learning (incompetently) on the job. [[Special:Contributions/68.198.135.130|68.198.135.130]] ([[User talk:68.198.135.130|talk]]) 00:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
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::::"Do you actually realize that most encyclopedia contributors are closely related or affiliated with their entries?" If this were true (I doubt it is, for most reputable ones), it would be further grounds not to use them as sources. Find proper secondary sources, written by people unaffiliated with Theosophy, and you will be in a stronger position to argue you case. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 00:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
::::"Do you actually realize that most encyclopedia contributors are closely related or affiliated with their entries?" If this were true (I doubt it is, for most reputable ones), it would be further grounds not to use them as sources. Find proper secondary sources, written by people unaffiliated with Theosophy, and you will be in a stronger position to argue you case. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 00:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::The Encyclopedia of Religion is not a strong or proper source? Is this a joke? Both editions include "Theosophical Society" entries from two different contributors affiliated with the Society, reviewed by different senior editors and editorial boards. Other Encyclopedias' contributions on the subject are by persons also affiliated by the Society. It must be a conspiracy by the Illuminati or by a bunch of chipmunks. Or you are wrong. Which do you think is more likely? [[Special:Contributions/68.198.135.130|68.198.135.130]] ([[User talk:68.198.135.130|talk]]) 15:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:13, 14 February 2011
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Controversy
I would like to propose removing the misleading sentence that states the Thule Society "provides the final link between occult racial theories and the racial ideology of Hitler and the emerging Nazi party." This incorrectly suggests that the Third Reich was the natural outcome of Theosophy. I propose re-writing the statement to more accurately reflect Hitler's relationship with Thule outlined in the Thule Society article.Yonderboy (talk) 18:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
My recommendation is to remove the section on the Thule Society altogether, as this has nothing to do with the formation of the Theosophical Society. Technically the statement about a chain of connections may be correct but this why Hitler became Hitler and we - did not. Other, better connections between the TS, and the TS, might be made instead. A Server —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.185.145 (talk) 08:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Misc
I can't quite figure out the system here. This is the third place I try to comment on this. Anyhow - I don't think this page needs to list every theosophical organization worldwide. And since we can't, IMO list every organization (and have to check whether links still work), we should not list any other than the main ones. And the australian link isn't a main one. It is simply a subsection of the Theosophical Society Adyar.
I think those Three objects of the society may have been jimmied with. My original source from 1893 makes no mention of Buddism Hindooism or any other tradition specifically than Aryan. Has someone editorialized them???
My edition says it's an "Unabridged, verbatim reprinting of the origional edition of 1889, including the glossary (which appeared in H.P.B.'s second edition) and a new index. " It's the edition by the Theosophical University Press Pasadena, California.
(Of course the current objects of the Theosophical Society Adyar are different, as are those of the other theosophical organisations. )
kh7 12:48 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)
Fact and Opinion
To me the the statement "While all three organizations trace their history back to the founding of the original Society, that Society must in some sense be said to have ceased to exist after the 1895 schism." sounds very much like opinion with the "in some sense to be said". However with the "must" it was stated as a fact. Instead I changed it to "While all three organizations trace their history back to the founding of the original Society, one might say that in some sense the original Society has ceased to exist after the 1895 schism." to clarify that it is an opinion.
If someone wants to change it back to the way it was I'd recommend adding in WHO believes that the original Society is dead. Do the 3 factions themselves believe this? Do critics? --John Lynch 15:07, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
the theosophical seal
The theosophical seal is as follows: [1]
The current seal given (seems to have been changed today) is Blavatsky's seal, on which (probably) the TS-seal was based. I don't know how to edit pictures, so I hope someone will change this back or something. kh7 10:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
References
This article bads needs some references with footnotes. Sardaka (talk) 09:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Using anandgholap.net as a source or link
This site is the personally registered site of Anand Gholap of Pune, India. He has a disclaimer that he is not responsible for the use of anything on his site (http://www.anandgholap.net/Terms_Of_Use.htm). He makes no special claims of expertise or any affiliation. A number of texts and images from books are on his site but copyright status is uncertain as he does not have specific permission to make these public domain but has added these on the basis of his understanding of copyright law which is not the same as Wikipedia's. His site fails WP:RS and WP:ELNO and should not be used as a reference or link for any article apart from (possibly) an article about himself.—Ash (talk) 17:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Krishnamurti's relationship with Leadbeater
In the section "Krishnamurti", there is a supposed statement of Krishnamurti that is not only uncited, but also dubious, specifically the quote that Leadbeater was "evil". This I have noted in the Leadbeater Talk page which I invite you to view. There are other factual problems and/or omissions with the "Krishnamurti" section of the article that I'm in the process of correcting. Thank you.
Primary sources
This article depends way too much on primary sources. Given how much has been written about the Theosophy and the Theosophical Society, it should be quite easy to find sources that are more appropriate for Wikipedia. --jpgordon::==( o ) 19:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. Apart from descriptions of what is clearly presented as doctrine, there's a variety of secondary sources. Encyclopedias are secondary sources. Also imo you misrepresent the primary sources policy:
Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source. Do not base articles entirely on primary sources. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:BLPPRIMARY, which is policy.
- The sources I used are a good example of not being prejudicial: statements should be examined based on their factual accuracy, not the affiliation of the person who makes them. If you can't learn to live with that, leave it alone. Maybe there should be one more Wikipedia policy about that.
- And why didn't you start this discussion before removing the information? What a joke. 68.198.135.130 (talk) 15:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, an encyclopaedia is a tertiary source: "Policy: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others". One should only use an encyclopaedia as a general guide to a subject - specific details are best found in secondary sources, which should cover them in greater detail. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The point is, encyclopedias are not primary sources, the reason given by the other user and yourseld for reverting the information. Did you just find that out now? In that case I honestly apologize for calling you a vandal. However ignorance of such a simple central fact raises the question of what you have to offer in this discussion. 68.198.135.130 (talk) 00:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- 68.198.135.130 (talk),
- Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Really. First, have you actually read the WP:BRD page? Are encyclopedia sources considered "bold" edits? Are you avoiding the facts by trying to fit them in a policy not relevant here? Because I can point to several other policies on editing and citing sources that are much more relevant and support my position. Do editors second-guess every encyclopedia, and every encyclopedia citation based on the affiliation of the contributor? Do you actually realize that most encyclopedia contributors are closely related or affiliated with their entries? That's why they are experts on them and that is why other experts (the editorial boards) peer-review them. The burden of proof to the opposite is on the other party. How would you call the constant reverting of properly cited, good-faith, prima-facie neutral edits? vandalism? No?
- Do you think any of the following may be "uncivil": repeatedly deleting accurately cited, sourced info. Starting a revert war and then complaining about it. Being right just because you were the first to cry about it. Threatening with unspecified sanctions. Blocking without any real reason. Making poorly veiled threats as you did in your "welcome". How about the following, crowning incivility: learning (incompetently) on the job. 68.198.135.130 (talk) 00:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Do you actually realize that most encyclopedia contributors are closely related or affiliated with their entries?" If this were true (I doubt it is, for most reputable ones), it would be further grounds not to use them as sources. Find proper secondary sources, written by people unaffiliated with Theosophy, and you will be in a stronger position to argue you case. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- The Encyclopedia of Religion is not a strong or proper source? Is this a joke? Both editions include "Theosophical Society" entries from two different contributors affiliated with the Society, reviewed by different senior editors and editorial boards. Other Encyclopedias' contributions on the subject are by persons also affiliated by the Society. It must be a conspiracy by the Illuminati or by a bunch of chipmunks. Or you are wrong. Which do you think is more likely? 68.198.135.130 (talk) 15:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Do you actually realize that most encyclopedia contributors are closely related or affiliated with their entries?" If this were true (I doubt it is, for most reputable ones), it would be further grounds not to use them as sources. Find proper secondary sources, written by people unaffiliated with Theosophy, and you will be in a stronger position to argue you case. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, an encyclopaedia is a tertiary source: "Policy: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others". One should only use an encyclopaedia as a general guide to a subject - specific details are best found in secondary sources, which should cover them in greater detail. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)