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::::I am sure that there are people who love and respect patsw just exactly because of who he is. No one seems to disagree with the suggestion that his vocabulary is smaller. Perhaps that limitation is what makes his Soul him so endearing to us all. It does not make him any less of a person in our eyes or in God's eyes. It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article. I love him. We all love him. If I could, I would give him a hug, right now. You love him, do you not, Mongo? Or is it MONGO? Anyway, please write a message, Mongo, that says you love patsw. I am beginning to have my doubts with you. Just a simple message, Mongo, saying "I love patsw". And maybe that you would give him a hug also. Nothing sexual, of course. -- [[User:Pinktulip|Pinktulip]] 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
::::I am sure that there are people who love and respect patsw just exactly because of who he is. No one seems to disagree with the suggestion that his vocabulary is smaller. Perhaps that limitation is what makes his Soul him so endearing to us all. It does not make him any less of a person in our eyes or in God's eyes. It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article. I love him. We all love him. If I could, I would give him a hug, right now. You love him, do you not, Mongo? Or is it MONGO? Anyway, please write a message, Mongo, that says you love patsw. I am beginning to have my doubts with you. Just a simple message, Mongo, saying "I love patsw". And maybe that you would give him a hug also. Nothing sexual, of course. -- [[User:Pinktulip|Pinktulip]] 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::I love everybody! I disagree with your comment that patsw has a small vocabulary. What purpose does your other comment "It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article" serve. Maybe he has a featured article and doesn't brag about it...maybe he doesn't want to write a featured article...but definitely, you owe him a big apology absolutely. Sooner, the better.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 13:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
:::::I love everybody! I disagree with your comment that patsw has a small vocabulary. What purpose does your other comment "It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article" serve. Maybe he has a featured article and doesn't brag about it...maybe he doesn't want to write a featured article...but definitely, you owe him a big apology absolutely. Sooner, the better.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 13:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
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Hello? Hello, patsw? Listen, I can't hear too well, do you suppose you could turn the music down just a little? Oh, that's much better. Yes. Fine, I can hear you now, patsw. Clear and plain and coming through fine. I'm coming through fine too, eh? Good, then. Well then as you say we're both coming through fine. Good. Well it's good that you're fine and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. hee hee. Now then patsw. You know how we've always talked about the possibility of something going wrong with the t-word. The t-word, patsw. The "terrorist" word. Well now what happened is, one of our loudmouths, he had a sort of, well he went a little funny in the head. You know. Just a little... funny. And uh, he went and did a silly thing. Well, I'll tell you what he did, he ordered his words... to attack your personality. Well let me finish, patsw. Let me finish, patsw. Well, listen, how do you think I feel about it? Can you imagine how I feel about it, patsw? Why do you think I'm apologizing you? Just to say hello? Of course I like to speak to you. Of course I like to say hello. Not now, but any time, patsw. I'm just calling up to tell you something terrible has happened. It's a friendly apology. Of course it's a friendly apology. Listen, if it wasn't friendly, ... you probably wouldn't have even got it. The words will not reach their targets for at least another hour. I am... I am positive, patsw. Listen, I've been all over this with your mother. It is not a trick. Well I'll tell you. We'd like to give your mother a complete run down on the targets, the innuendos, and the dictionary with all of the multisylabic words. Yes! I mean, if we're unable to recall the words, then I'd say that, uh, well, we're just going to have to help you understand them, patsw. I know they're our words. Alright, well, listen... who should we call? Who should we call, patsw? Your...? Sorry, you faded away there. Your mother? Where is she, patsw? Right. Yes. Oh, you'll call her first, will you? Uh huh. Listen, do you happen to have the phone number on you, patsw? What? I see, just ask for information. I'm sorry too, patsw. I'm very sorry. Alright! You're sorrier than I am! But I am sorry as well. I am as sorry as you are, patsw. Don't say that you are more sorry than I am, because I am capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, alright? [http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0055.html] |
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== 9-11 was a conspiracy == |
== 9-11 was a conspiracy == |
Revision as of 22:35, 3 February 2006
An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.
Wow, that's a lot of templates. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
...so why did User:SNIyer12 delete all of the page contents...? Jhardin@impsec 21:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- He just put the older stuff in archives, where you can still read them. Tom Harrison Talk 21:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
To tell the truth, i think the government knew all about 9/11 n' crap. Oh, and if the towers fell from planes, then why did they fall EXACTLY how buildings fall when they are dynamited eh? I think that 9/11 was all planned. Son Goku22
Battle of the bulge
I am repeating this because it is unfinsihed business that was archived.
This article is still too long. It has seven subpages, which is admirable, but the text in this article that accompanies a reference to each subpage varies from non-existant to bulky. I suggest that the bulky text accompanying subpage references has major potential for reduction in size w/o loss of overall quality. It is just a matter of moving the less-important references in such sections as "conspiracy theories", "war on terrorism" and "responsibility" can be moved down to their corresponding subpages and properly summarizing the most important, historic reults of these subpages (just like we have now mostly done with the lead section). How about it, guys? We can still make this a featured article, but you have to be willing sensational items that, historically, are merely line-items, get moved down to the subpages. -- Pinktulip 06:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm okay with that in principle; the trouble will be in the details. It should be possible to make the improvements you describe if it's done slowly. Maybe add the details elsewhere first, then take them away from this page? Tom Harrison Talk 15:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- I also want to point out that we have over 40 URL footnotes. That is too many. We should delegate that stuff to the "main article" subpages or make regular references out of them. With seven subpages, it should be possible to get this article below 30 KBytes. -- Pinktulip 11:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The 9/11 commission is not the story
This is about what happened on 9/11 and its specfic aftermath. Please do not insert the 9/11 Commission into the lead section. Please do not insert the word "terrorist" into the text an excessive number of times. The reader already konws that people who hijack planes are terrorists. The 9/11 Commission has its own page. -- Pinktulip 01:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
It is correct to say that the terrorists were terrorists; ostentatiously avoiding the word is not neutrality. Some editors have thought it necessary to make clear that the 9/11 Commission is the organization that using the 't' word; this is part of why I was concerned with your (otherwise reasonable) efforts to trim fat from the article. In trimming fat, you also cut out the citations that some thought needed to be there. Tom Harrison Talk 01:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
"The reader already konws that people who hijack planes are terrorists."
- No, people who hijack planes are not exclusively terrorists. See article about Aircraft hijacking for many cases (ransoms, etc.), which are not described "terrorism" but just "criminal".
- Terrorism is strongly politically colored word without clear definition, and therefore should be avoided (see words to avoid guidelines). Politically motivated aircraft hijackers should be refered to with word "militant" - it includes all the same information without being arbitrary used for political purposes. Klaam 12:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Um...you seem to be very attuned for someone with so few edits...have we met before? Sorry if the term is perjorative...this is an article about an event that happened in the U.S. and every single media source and the U.S. Government call the actions of the hijackers terrorists...they didn't just take the planes to Tahiti...they used them as missles, killing almost 3,000 people and that is terrorism.--MONGO 12:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Well, if every single Pakistani and Middle-East media describes Pakistani civilian village bombed by US with word "terrorism", is that a good reason to refer to CIA or whatever as a US-supported terrorist organizations in Wikipedia articles? On the other hand, many acts called 'terrorism' by US media are globally (possibly by larger population) called militarism. We should not define the use of words according to media in some country, but use politically neural word as "militant".
- And on the other hand, one of the 911 attacks was on military target and others could be described as strategic targets like tv-station and power station in iraq war, thus someone might argue that civilian casualties were just unnecessarily casualties (and yes, Bin Laden said so).
- Or is "terrorism" defined by number of civilian casualties? Someone might argue, that CIA is equal to Taleban-era Afghanistan supported Al-Qaeda because it equipped and supported acts done by Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Talebans, etc., which after all, resulted entire genocides. So civilian casualties can't be the defining criteria either.
- I suggest that the word "terrorism" is used only in citations.Klaam 13:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Um...you seem to be very attuned for someone with so few edits...have we met before? Sorry if the term is perjorative...this is an article about an event that happened in the U.S. and every single media source and the U.S. Government call the actions of the hijackers terrorists...they didn't just take the planes to Tahiti...they used them as missles, killing almost 3,000 people and that is terrorism.--MONGO 12:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Or every single Chinese media and Chinese government labeling independece movements such Falun Gong (which has killed pro-government civilians) "terrorist pr
- Tom Harrison: You are spliting hairs. We are not talking about hijacking cargo planes. Kidnapping is an act of violence and terrorism, even if a ransom is asked for. It is only the coercive force of threatened violence that puts the kidnappers into a position to demand the ransom. It is not as if you could argue that the kidnappers are entrepeneurs who are starting a profitable new business because the act itself is fundamentally destructive to civilization. Your approach suggests that you wish to reduce to the discussion down to simply calling some of the participants "terrorists" and letting it go at that. Wikipedia is not about providing labels. It is about providing information and letting the reader be the judge. -- Pinktulip 12:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- The article (currently) says that "The 9/11 Commission states in its final report that the nineteen hijackers who carried out the attack were terrorists." That's cited, verifiable, and relevant. Tom Harrison Talk 14:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Tom Harrison: The reader, does not need the help of the 9/11 Commission to figure out that the attackers are terrorists. The assertion can be made by the article that Al-Quaida is a terrorist organization without the help of the 9/11 Commission. Please stop re-inserting the 9/11 Commission into the lead section. -- Pinktulip 18:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- It is an important and relevant fact that should appear prominently. I support its inclusion in the introduction. Tom Harrison Talk 18:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Does the reader need the Warren Commission to tell him that Lee Harvey Oswald was an "assasin"? No. Does the reader need the corresponding Commissions of the Challenger/Columbia shuttle loses to tell him that those events were "disasters" and "accidents"? No. So also, the reader does not need this Comission's word of "terrorist". The reader can figure it out for himself. -- Pinktulip 19:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- I do not find your analogies persuasive. Leaving out relevant details to avoid any mention of the 't' word does not give us commendable brevity, it gives us an incomplete article. Bending over backwards to avoid using the word "terrorist" is not the path to neutrality. If you have citations from some notable and verifiable source saying that they were not terrorists, but instead gallant freedom-fighters, give us a source and we can consider including it. Tom Harrison Talk 20:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Bill Harrison: Let us take this scenario:
- It is 9/12. You have full information about what happened prior to and on 9/11 and your job was to report what happened on 9/11. The Commission has not yet happened and you are not required to provide historical context of a forward-looking nature. Under those circumstances, how should the first two paragraphs lead section read? I suggest that, under those circumstances, the first two paragraphs should not mention the 9/11 Commision because it has not yet happened. I suggest further that this is how the paragraphs should read now and from now on.
- Five years have passed and then you add a third paragraph about the aftermath without changing the first two paragraphs at all.
- Ten years have passed and it is now time to update the article again. You are considering updating the first two paragraphs, even though you had full infomration at the time you wrote those two paragraphs. You are thinking about adding the phrase "...which later lead to..." but you want to do minimal change, again, because you did have full information at that time. Which phrase, if either, do you chose to add:
- "...which later lead to two wars..."
- "...which later lead to a 9/11 commision to calling the attackers terrorists..."
We currently keep the mention of two wars to the thrird paragraph, but you keep inserting the 9/11 commission into the second paragraph. I think that this represents a lack of perspective on what is historically Important. The 9/11 Commission happened much later than 9/11 and merely collected information and submitted a report. If it provides new facts about what happened earlier, then incorporate those specific facts. If you want to add that "NYC/USA/World was terrorized to some quantifiable degree", then that would not be incorrect, but the reader can probably figure out this somewhat vague notion on their own, based on the other, more specific facts. I am going to wait another day and then I am going to remove your added reference to the 9/11 Commssion again because it does not fit into the historical narrative. -- Pinktulip 04:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- In spite of your insistence, I still think these facts need to be featured prominently in the introduction, for the reasons I have presented above. If your position is that it must be removed and replaced with your version, I don't see that there's much room for discussion. Tom Harrison Talk 21:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
"Terrorist" words occur 30 times
Using the word "terrorist", "terror", etc. occur thirty times in the article; that is more than enough. It is merely a label and provides little information to the reader. 30 times is more than enough. It occurs once in the lead section and that is sufficient. -- Pinktulip 12:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia guidelines:
The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Wikipedia format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.)
It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are.
I agree with pinktulip that adding 9/11 Commision to the lead section adds bloat without important new information. What is the problem with word "militant"? What is the specific need why it should be replaced with the word "terrorist"?
I'd kindly appreciate if all the contributors introduced themselves into Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Wikipedia should not be a political battlefield, so please don't start edit wars against clearly stated policies and guidelines - instead, discuss about your opinions in the talk pages. Thanks. Klaam 12:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- And the "Al-Qaeda" article, in its own right, demonstrates that the organization is a terrorist organization, so no further explaination in this page is needed. -- Pinktulip 12:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- If the Al-Qaeda article needs improvement, then please contribute what you have to offer. I still assert that it is the lack of our ability to briefly and efffectly summarize these other articles that causes this article to bloat and be of low quality. -- Pinktulip 18:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The descriptive word is terrorist. It is verifiable and it is cited. This is the Wikipedia policy. It is necessary to label the 19 hijackers as terrorists. There is a problem with the word militant -- it is inaccurate. What's been called bloat appears to me to be a smokescreen in order to prevent the article from describing their acts [to] make clear what they are. (quoting the guideline already mentioned) patsw 14:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Patsw: Your comment in your most recent change to the Talk page "Perhaps it should occur 35 times" helps to highlight the problem. Such repeatative usage of a word in a historical narrative is a warning sign of a problem. It might not really be problem, but it might be a problem with balance, it might be POV. It is not hard to see how such a repetative usage leads to bloat. If you really think that there is some kind of smokescreen, then please just cut through it an point out what it is that is behind that smokescreen and that is so Important. -- Pinktulip 16:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- I believe it is best to not use numerous alternative words to descripe the same entity, as that would be confusing...except in different tones of voice...take for example the American Civil War...the Northern forces are called:Yankees, federals, and Union...the Southern forces are called Rebels, Confederates,Southerners, etc...and there are other terms I have found. To the outside person that is unfamiliar with the situation, this terms, when spred out in an article can become confusing. This is an article about an event that happened in the U.S., and since the vast majority of media, the U.S. government and citizens of the U.S. believe that the actions of the hijackers was terrorism, then that is within the balance of Wikipedia's policy of neutral point of view, where it also states that the majority viewpoint need not be removed to give undue weight to the extreme minority [1]...as a point in that passage, it clear states that "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." I understand that some extreme elements find the term terrorist to be pejorative...but it is the extreme minority viewpoint, and at best, deserves only a passing comment here, or to needs to be relegated to a subarticle.--MONGO 19:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- This is not math or science where such consistent terminology might be best. This is human history where each day and each person and each event is unique. Parallels can be drawn, but each event is unique. If we could simply derive 9/11 from a bunch of definitions and axioms and theorems, then that wold make the job easier, but that simply is not the case. I think that most readers of history prefer to see some breadth of vocabulary in the narrative so that they can form their own opinion based on the reported facts and the range of terms used to describe the complex and varied events. Again, the word "terrorist" does not convey a great deal of specific information about specifically what happened. The reader would prefer a more specific term for some fo the participants, such as "hijacker" interspersed with the T-word, so immediately, using the same word in a monotonous fashion again breaks down. -- Pinktulip 20:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- The uniqueness of the events of 9/11 present the greatest opportunity in human history to indeed use the term terrorism without anyone aside from the extreme fringe to be in disagreement. I recognize we are writing for the world, but this is the English language version of Wikipedia, and it need not adopt the extreme minority viewpoint at the expense of reality.--MONGO 21:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Our "opportunity" is when a reader bothers to even try to read this article. Our job is to inform the reader about what happened. Using the word "terrorist" as much or more than is in the current article does that job, but the results fall solidly in the realm of mediocrity. -- Pinktulip 22:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- A terrorist is not a necessarily also a militant...militants do not necessarily engage in terrorism. This is the English language version of Wikipedia...and in the English speaking world the overwhelming vast majority of news sources worldwide, the U.S. Government, most governments of Europe, even asia and elaswhere cosnider the actions of the hijackers to be terrorism...the actions of all hijackers almost definitely fits this term also...as I said, this was a severe hijacking...the planes were used as bombs and it was planned that way...the extremist fringe minority does not get equal footing in article space to minimize factual terminology and definitions. I can think of no more clearly illuminating circumstance in which the definition of terrorism could be more accurate than when defining the actions of the hijackers.--MONGO 03:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Our "opportunity" is when a reader bothers to even try to read this article. Our job is to inform the reader about what happened. Using the word "terrorist" as much or more than is in the current article does that job, but the results fall solidly in the realm of mediocrity. -- Pinktulip 22:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- The uniqueness of the events of 9/11 present the greatest opportunity in human history to indeed use the term terrorism without anyone aside from the extreme fringe to be in disagreement. I recognize we are writing for the world, but this is the English language version of Wikipedia, and it need not adopt the extreme minority viewpoint at the expense of reality.--MONGO 21:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- This is not math or science where such consistent terminology might be best. This is human history where each day and each person and each event is unique. Parallels can be drawn, but each event is unique. If we could simply derive 9/11 from a bunch of definitions and axioms and theorems, then that wold make the job easier, but that simply is not the case. I think that most readers of history prefer to see some breadth of vocabulary in the narrative so that they can form their own opinion based on the reported facts and the range of terms used to describe the complex and varied events. Again, the word "terrorist" does not convey a great deal of specific information about specifically what happened. The reader would prefer a more specific term for some fo the participants, such as "hijacker" interspersed with the T-word, so immediately, using the same word in a monotonous fashion again breaks down. -- Pinktulip 20:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Mongo: My only interest is in seeing this article achieve the Featured Article status. I assert that any Wikipedia article (other than, of course, the Terrorism article and its ilk) that attempts to present present itself as a historical narrative and uses "terrorist" (and its derivatives) more than thirty times in the one article, given the current arbitrary limit of 32 KB for article size will not achieve Featured Article status in the forseeable future. I suggest you look at the works of this teenager: User:Lord Emsworth . Note that he has produced many Featured Articles and rarely found the need to use the "terrorist" words despite that fact that he was frequently writing about people engaged in warfare. -- Pinktulip 08:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand. The best way to achieve featured article status is to be factual in evidence and in terminology. I think we would be selling out to the minoity view if we used terminology that is weaselly...Lord Elmsworth's articles are impressive...his future is bright for sure. Regardless, none of them are discussing a contemporary event of this magnitude and or of this experience. I've seen the arguments that the Bombing of dresden was terrorism, that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan are terrorism...I say fine...put that in those articles then...but the fact remains that no other term better fits the description of what we are discussing here, in THIS article, than terrorism. Militant doesn't work, nor infidel, enemy combatant, freedom fighter, soldier, etc. If you are so concerned about this becoming a FA, then work on trimming about 10 to 15 KB off the article, and it needs about 20 more references anyway if it's going to remain this huge.--MONGO 08:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe we can reword the article to eliminate the need for the word to be used so often, or any descriptive word to appear so often. That should give you a project here. Remove the need for the use of the word that appears so abundantly by rewriting sentnces to that the word doesn't have to be there. Bear in mind that it's still going to be there though so it's complete removal I oppose completely, but as an effort to work on this, I'll support the rephrasing of sentences in some sections so that no descriptive word is necessary...that will make veryone happy I think.--MONGO 08:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Mongo: Lord Em wrote about people involved in life-or-death struggles involving total warfare where the stakes involved were often a matter of national survival. Many atrocities and other acts occurred that, compared to 9/11, could much more easily qualify as terrorism. Your notion of magnitude seems to lack historical perspective. Those events were, in fact, of much greater magnitude in terms of the number of fatalities and the stakes involved. Those events were not televized, but many of the acts were clearly designed to terrorize, yet Lord Em rarely resorts that phrase. -- Pinktulip 09:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Mongo: My only interest is in seeing this article achieve the Featured Article status. I assert that any Wikipedia article (other than, of course, the Terrorism article and its ilk) that attempts to present present itself as a historical narrative and uses "terrorist" (and its derivatives) more than thirty times in the one article, given the current arbitrary limit of 32 KB for article size will not achieve Featured Article status in the forseeable future. I suggest you look at the works of this teenager: User:Lord Emsworth . Note that he has produced many Featured Articles and rarely found the need to use the "terrorist" words despite that fact that he was frequently writing about people engaged in warfare. -- Pinktulip 08:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
We are discussing different things so don't take them out of context. I give a little in my last comment and that isn't enough. Obviously you want the term terrorist removed from here and that aint gonna happen. I've looked through and read many of those articles over the past year and the word terrorism doesn't fit in most cases anyway.--MONGO 12:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- "Reader fatigue" with the word terrorist will take a back seat to accuracy in describing the people who committed the attacks of September 11, 2001. patsw 14:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- As I already pointed out: Lord Em achieved accurracy w/o excessive use of the word, even though he could have defended his choice to use it a great deal. You should really ask yourself: What does he have you you have not got? I suuggest that he, despite his youth, has a larger vocabulary and a n ability to uee it properly. -- Pinktulip 00:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest that your comment is a personal attack so you need to read about that for future reference WP:NPA...our vocabularies are fine and again, none of his articles are compariable. The word terrorist stays as that is the best definition to fit the actions.--MONGO 00:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I am sure that there are people who love and respect patsw just exactly because of who he is. No one seems to disagree with the suggestion that his vocabulary is smaller. Perhaps that limitation is what makes his Soul him so endearing to us all. It does not make him any less of a person in our eyes or in God's eyes. It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article. I love him. We all love him. If I could, I would give him a hug, right now. You love him, do you not, Mongo? Or is it MONGO? Anyway, please write a message, Mongo, that says you love patsw. I am beginning to have my doubts with you. Just a simple message, Mongo, saying "I love patsw". And maybe that you would give him a hug also. Nothing sexual, of course. -- Pinktulip 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I love everybody! I disagree with your comment that patsw has a small vocabulary. What purpose does your other comment "It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article" serve. Maybe he has a featured article and doesn't brag about it...maybe he doesn't want to write a featured article...but definitely, you owe him a big apology absolutely. Sooner, the better.--MONGO 13:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I am sure that there are people who love and respect patsw just exactly because of who he is. No one seems to disagree with the suggestion that his vocabulary is smaller. Perhaps that limitation is what makes his Soul him so endearing to us all. It does not make him any less of a person in our eyes or in God's eyes. It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article. I love him. We all love him. If I could, I would give him a hug, right now. You love him, do you not, Mongo? Or is it MONGO? Anyway, please write a message, Mongo, that says you love patsw. I am beginning to have my doubts with you. Just a simple message, Mongo, saying "I love patsw". And maybe that you would give him a hug also. Nothing sexual, of course. -- Pinktulip 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest that your comment is a personal attack so you need to read about that for future reference WP:NPA...our vocabularies are fine and again, none of his articles are compariable. The word terrorist stays as that is the best definition to fit the actions.--MONGO 00:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- As I already pointed out: Lord Em achieved accurracy w/o excessive use of the word, even though he could have defended his choice to use it a great deal. You should really ask yourself: What does he have you you have not got? I suuggest that he, despite his youth, has a larger vocabulary and a n ability to uee it properly. -- Pinktulip 00:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello? Hello, patsw? Listen, I can't hear too well, do you suppose you could turn the music down just a little? Oh, that's much better. Yes. Fine, I can hear you now, patsw. Clear and plain and coming through fine. I'm coming through fine too, eh? Good, then. Well then as you say we're both coming through fine. Good. Well it's good that you're fine and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. hee hee. Now then patsw. You know how we've always talked about the possibility of something going wrong with the t-word. The t-word, patsw. The "terrorist" word. Well now what happened is, one of our loudmouths, he had a sort of, well he went a little funny in the head. You know. Just a little... funny. And uh, he went and did a silly thing. Well, I'll tell you what he did, he ordered his words... to attack your personality. Well let me finish, patsw. Let me finish, patsw. Well, listen, how do you think I feel about it? Can you imagine how I feel about it, patsw? Why do you think I'm apologizing you? Just to say hello? Of course I like to speak to you. Of course I like to say hello. Not now, but any time, patsw. I'm just calling up to tell you something terrible has happened. It's a friendly apology. Of course it's a friendly apology. Listen, if it wasn't friendly, ... you probably wouldn't have even got it. The words will not reach their targets for at least another hour. I am... I am positive, patsw. Listen, I've been all over this with your mother. It is not a trick. Well I'll tell you. We'd like to give your mother a complete run down on the targets, the innuendos, and the dictionary with all of the multisylabic words. Yes! I mean, if we're unable to recall the words, then I'd say that, uh, well, we're just going to have to help you understand them, patsw. I know they're our words. Alright, well, listen... who should we call? Who should we call, patsw? Your...? Sorry, you faded away there. Your mother? Where is she, patsw? Right. Yes. Oh, you'll call her first, will you? Uh huh. Listen, do you happen to have the phone number on you, patsw? What? I see, just ask for information. I'm sorry too, patsw. I'm very sorry. Alright! You're sorrier than I am! But I am sorry as well. I am as sorry as you are, patsw. Don't say that you are more sorry than I am, because I am capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, alright? [2]
9-11 was a conspiracy
I can think of no more clearly illuminating circumstance in which the definition of conspiracy could be more accurate than when defining the actions of the hijackers 69.231.8.216 07:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Please refer to the 9/11 conspiracy theories and try to get a feel for the consensus there. Thanks. El_C 07:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I misread that. Still, I felt the addition suffered from some issues. My latest changes are here. Thanks. El_C 07:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The point is, "conspiracy" is a far more meaningful, accurate and appropriate word than "set", "group" or "series", the three words which have been inserted to replace it. Trying to compare two teenagers stealing shoes with (at least) 20 terrorists conspiring for years and succeeding in killing thousands and destroying $billions in property, this is a vacuous comparison.
- If you don't use "set", "group" or "series" it's not just POV, it's bad English. The conspiracy preceded the attacks. Once the assault was underway, the four groups or sets of hijackers could no longer conspire. Ruby 16:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Comparison with Antietam
I have noticed the edits and reverts, concerning comparisons of the 9/11 death toll with those of the Battle of Antietam, during the Civil War. I think some clarifications are needed:
- I don't think that Rmmbrhllwn / 68.185.250.128 / MI6mole quite understands what the term casualty means. Casualites include fatalities, as well as # wounded.
- The Battle of Antietam, which occurred on September 17, 1862, resulted in 3,620 deaths (both sides), not 20,000 as was stated in this article.
- The Battle of Gettysburg occurred over three days, with 6,655. I don't know how many occurred on each of the days, but probably not as many as 2,986.
- The Battle of Shiloh occurred over two days, with 3,477 deaths. Again, probably not as many as 2,986 were killed on either of those particular days.
- The Battle of Antietam, which occurred on September 17, 1862, resulted in 3,620 deaths (both sides), not 20,000 as was stated in this article.
- I also think making a comparison between military deaths during war and civilian deaths during a terrorist attacks, doesn't fit in the article, yet alone the introduction.
- -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 21:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but bear in mind that those figures are not accurate for confederate troops and in some cases, only count federal dead. Regardless, there is no need to evn have the comparison in the article anyway...it serves no purpose except to make the event of 9/11 seem less important than it was.--MONGO 00:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hijackers
Another user insisted that this topic was to be created. I added a link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm) disputing the claim of the "nineteen hijackers". I see no problem adding this link. Do you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.1.180 (talk • contribs)
- I also remember the doubts about some of the hijackers in the days following the attacks... I think you're referring to Waleed_al-Shehri. However, the reports of surviving 'hijackers' were later discounted, as a mix-up involving names — very common names in Saudi Arabia. The following article (and quote) is cited in the Waleed al-Shehri article on Wikipedia:
- "...at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called "survivors," but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.
- The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain." - quote from (Spiegel online, September 8, 2003)
- PS. you can sign your comments by adding ~~~~.