Jolly Janner (talk | contribs) →Proposed Move: reply |
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'''Oppose''' I oppose this and all the other nonsense (IMHO) renames which have cropped up from the same user. In all cases the UK town/city pre-dates all the other uses which are typically small (and invariably attractive places in other parts of the world e.g. Manchester, Massachusetts. Cambridge, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Manchester, Gloucester, Essex - all these were first and foremost British locations and that is still their primary use around the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a disambiguation hatnote in an article. --[[User:Simple Bob|Simple Bob]] ([[User talk:Simple Bob|talk]]) 18:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC) |
'''Oppose''' I oppose this and all the other nonsense (IMHO) renames which have cropped up from the same user. In all cases the UK town/city pre-dates all the other uses which are typically small (and invariably attractive places in other parts of the world e.g. Manchester, Massachusetts. Cambridge, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Manchester, Gloucester, Essex - all these were first and foremost British locations and that is still their primary use around the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a disambiguation hatnote in an article. --[[User:Simple Bob|Simple Bob]] ([[User talk:Simple Bob|talk]]) 18:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC) |
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'''Support'''. If I was closing this discussion today, I would close it in favor of a move for the following reasons: |
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# The underlying issue here is whether the city in Devon is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for '''Plymouth'''. |
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# This determination should not be made by counting the Support and Oppose votes; this determination should be made by evaluating the quality of the arguments made, with particular attention to how much is based on policy, guidelines and conventions, and considering the consensus of the Wikipedia community at large as reflected in policy, guidelines and conventions like [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. |
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# The "historical significance" of a subject is not directly relevant to [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] determination. All Oppose arguments based on the assertion that "historical significance" matters here need to be discounted accordingly (if that is their sole basis they should be ignored entirely). |
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# Simply asserting that the topic is or is not the primary topic is not an argument; any such baseless assertions of opinion need to be discounted or even completely ignored accordingly. |
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#Counting incoming links is not nearly as strong an indicator of primary topic as is actual page hit counts (because of the criteria discussed on #9). |
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# Repeated and extended discussions and debates about whether this topic is the primary topic is strong indication in and of itself that no topic is primary for the term in question (in this case, '''Plymouth'''). |
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#Myriads of 10 year old kids doing reports on Thanksgiving by googling for Plymouth are not served well be being taken, confusingly, to a Wikipedia article about a city in England rather than to a dab page. The hatnote is easily missed by young and inexperienced eyes. |
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# Many who oppose this move are obviously geographically biased. To their credit, at least one admitted that the city in Devon is the primary topic for '''Plymouth''' only in the U.K. (and not in the U.S., Canada, Australia, South Africa or the rest of the English speaking world). |
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# The primary topic criteria is ''"much more likely than any other, '''and''' more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters that term in the Search box"''. No one has argued (remember, assertions are not arguments), much less shown, that either criterion is true in this case. No data suggests that the city in Devon is "much more likely than any other [use of Plymouth]" to be the subject sought by a reader entering the term in Search, or that it is "more likely than all the others combined" to be sought. --[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 19:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:33, 25 October 2010
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Plymouth Gin?
Why hasnt anyone mentioned the great Plymouth Gin? Basic ingredient in a Giblet and all? The gin is the only reason i've heard about the town (with all respect:)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy McDandy (talk • contribs) 15:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- It has not been mentioned in the economy section of the article. Jolly Ω Janner 12:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Flag of Plymouth
It occurs to me that some cities have flags, but I haven't seen the Flag of Plymouth anywhere on the wiki, such as in List of British Flags. A quick look on the net found one verbal description, but no pictures. I remember the council used to fly a very large specimen from their main flagpole outside the civic centre, where they'd fly the stars and stripes on 4th July and so on. The flag is the shield from the coat of arms (possibly with simplified black towers) on a red field. Not being able to find one on the net leads me to thinking someone could make one, but yet again we'd need an RS. Stevebritgimp (talk) 16:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- In fact walking today through Royal Parade there is a red flag, on a high flagpole at the rear of the Civic Centre, up on a roof. You never know, I might get a picture of it. Stevebritgimp (talk) 13:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please do and upload to commons. Sam Davidson (talk) 11:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, you landlubbers, in a fit of madness at 2am I have now uploaded free crappy images taken from my iPhone back in December last year of the flag, and I've set up a page Flag of Plymouth, which might well have been speedily deleted by tomorrow. Anyway, what I think might be needed would be a nice svg file of the flag in a more schematic form, (which I don't know how to do), and maybe the more artistic could get a better picture. Please drop by the page and discussion page and have a look - cheers. Stevebritgimp (talk) 01:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Agatha Christie
As a Frenchmen, it's not up to me to say what to put in this page.
But as a father, I can tell you that one of the few landmarks visited by my daughter during her visit of the city with her class was "Agatha Christie's Greenway house".
Shouldn't she be mentioned among the people and/or the places to see in the city ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.216.148.175 (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a tourist guide. We only write about notable residents or people who have contributed to the city greatly in articles about cities. Agatha Christie is more notable for Torquay and "Agatha Christie's Greenway house" is not a notable landmark. Jolly Ω Janner 21:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Agatha Christie's Greenway House is in Galmpton anyway, nothing to do with Plymouth. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Disambiguation required
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not apply to this article. No arguments at US or British centralism will be accounted for. Is there any reason this city occupies this article instead of Plymouth (disambiguation). I'd have thought at the very least the fact that more than just cities share this name would have precluded the lack of disambiguation. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- There's a lengthy archive of the previous request and an even older one here. The previous one reached no consensus: I believe mainly because some people felt it was the primary topic, whereas others felt it wasn't (in a nutshell). Jolly Ω Janner 18:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Consensus can change and silence is agreement. There is no way that a significant enough portion of searches for "Plymouth" could turn up only the British city as a primary topic. The car company alone gets one third as many hits as this ambiguous title. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not discussing whether it should be moved; just informing you of previous requests. If you really feel that consensus will be formed this time round, then follow the procedure listed on Wikipedia:Requested moves to initiate the discussion process. Jolly Ω Janner 18:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've initiated it here, at the talk page of the article in question. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- I believe you need to specify the name you wish to move this page to using the template {{subst:move|NewName}}: either Plymouth, Devon or Plymouth, England I think is what you're looking for. Jolly Ω Janner 21:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is either style more accepted than the other for British articles? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Plymouth, Devon is prefered per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#England. Jolly Ω Janner 10:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is either style more accepted than the other for British articles? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- I believe you need to specify the name you wish to move this page to using the template {{subst:move|NewName}}: either Plymouth, Devon or Plymouth, England I think is what you're looking for. Jolly Ω Janner 21:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've initiated it here, at the talk page of the article in question. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not discussing whether it should be moved; just informing you of previous requests. If you really feel that consensus will be formed this time round, then follow the procedure listed on Wikipedia:Requested moves to initiate the discussion process. Jolly Ω Janner 18:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- Consensus can change and silence is agreement. There is no way that a significant enough portion of searches for "Plymouth" could turn up only the British city as a primary topic. The car company alone gets one third as many hits as this ambiguous title. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Proposed Move
Plymouth → Plymouth, Devon — as both the place and the automobile could be considered primary topics, a dab is far more appropriate at directing users to the proper page. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Primary topic should also be used: see my numbers below. This article is not the most hit article named "Plymouth", and only commands about a quarter of the traffic of articles named "Plymouth". Not enough for a primary topic Purplebackpack89 02:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Note, the same move was discussed in 2006 (Talk:Plymouth/Archive_1#Requested_move) and in 2008 (Talk:Plymouth_(disambiguation)#Requested_move). Fæ (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Note to mention an informal discussion at Talk:Plymouth/Archive 1#Plymouth should not redirect to this page going on from 2006-2008. Jolly Ω Janner 12:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose Plymouth, a British city of ca. 250,000 people, globally significant port for >500 years (implicated in the defeat of the Spanish Armada, site of the Pilgrim Fathers departing Britain, and a key port in the Transatlantic slave trade) seems more likely to be the primary topic than the (far smaller) city in the US established by the Pilgrim Fathers and far more likely than a brand of car only available in 2 countries. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's a poor reasoning. Cars come and go just like people. If you totalled up the amount of people who have lived and gone in Plymouth, then the figure would be well into the millions... Jolly Ω Janner 19:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly, cars and people come and go. However, 450,000 cars a year over 40 years, not taking into account that the number likely climbed, is 18 million. This is a major car marque, similar to... oooh, let's say, Lincoln. Lincoln Nebraska had a 2008 estimated population of... wait for it... 250,000! Lincoln is a second-tier car brand (a marque owned by Ford). Does Lincoln link to the Nebraska city, clearly the forerunner to the cars by half a century? Nope. Surprisingly it doesn't go straight to the British place either (though I'm sure you'd argue that's the primary topic). It goes to a disambiguation page, instead, which begins:
- That's a poor reasoning. Cars come and go just like people. If you totalled up the amount of people who have lived and gone in Plymouth, then the figure would be well into the millions... Jolly Ω Janner 19:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Lincoln commonly refers to:
- Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the United States
- Lincoln, Lincolnshire, England
- Lincoln (automobile), a luxury brand of the Ford Motor Company
- Lincoln, Nebraska, the state's capital
- Lincoln (surname), people with the surname Lincoln
Lincoln may also refer to:
- Fancy that. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The decissions for Lincoln has little bearing to this case. You made this move request individually rather than collectively as a set of move requests, so this case should be treated with specifics related to Plymouth(s). Examples of things done on Wikipedia (unless it's a policy) is not a way to base other decisions. Jolly Ω Janner 20:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fancy that. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - there would have to be a reasonable case in accordance with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Using the suggested criteria given the case for a move is too weak. Fæ (talk) 21:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- This only meets one criteria listed on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (article pageviews, in which it receives around double the pagehits as the primary topic placeholder). Googlehits results are mixed for the first several pages of web[1] and news[2][3]. For an image search, the vehicle has clear supremacy.
- I'd even propose a one month test. The results of the first two weeks would be ignored, and the results of the second two weeks used to see how "primary" the English city is in comparison to the vehicle or other Plymouth's. During the test, the primary topic would be the dab page. If in one month it is shown that the British place gets more results than the others put together, then it is the primary topic. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Having a large number of car pics on the internet is probably less convincing than having top listing in Google searches and the most common match on the first page of Google. I find the Wikipedia pagecount history fairly useful, the city appearing around 2½ times more visited than the car article. There is a basic taxonomic rationale, in that all other things called "Plymouth" originated from the English city and whether someone searching for "Plymouth" on Wikipedia would expect to find the original city first with a dab page link as a hat-note. I'm not that keen on just tracking the numbers against the suggested guideline criteria as some sort of proof, the guidelines themselves quite clearly suggest that "decisions are made by discussion between editors" and that such statistics can only support this discussion. You are free to tabulate or refine comparative statistics for everyone to consider, but I would recommend we let the discussion naturally evolve a consensus in the first instance. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 02:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're correct. I've taken the liberty on that note to invite the automobile wikiproject into this discussion. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Canvassing. Are you going to invite any other non-car-related project members to contribute in order to balance the discussion? Thanks, Fæ (talk) 08:36, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're correct. I've taken the liberty on that note to invite the automobile wikiproject into this discussion. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Having a large number of car pics on the internet is probably less convincing than having top listing in Google searches and the most common match on the first page of Google. I find the Wikipedia pagecount history fairly useful, the city appearing around 2½ times more visited than the car article. There is a basic taxonomic rationale, in that all other things called "Plymouth" originated from the English city and whether someone searching for "Plymouth" on Wikipedia would expect to find the original city first with a dab page link as a hat-note. I'm not that keen on just tracking the numbers against the suggested guideline criteria as some sort of proof, the guidelines themselves quite clearly suggest that "decisions are made by discussion between editors" and that such statistics can only support this discussion. You are free to tabulate or refine comparative statistics for everyone to consider, but I would recommend we let the discussion naturally evolve a consensus in the first instance. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 02:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - I'll admit I'm partisan, but reading WP:PRIMARYTOPIC I feel that the argument is weaker than last time. I think the city is the primary topic, especially given the expansion of pages spinning off from that. Agree with Fæ that an argument against that looks weak. Stevebritgimp (talk) 01:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The argument is that its not the primary topic to anybody in North America. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- See below about primary topic Purplebackpack89 02:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The argument is that its not the primary topic to anybody in North America. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Weak support- Can't say I care very strongly either way, I reckon a disambiguation page would be the best way to go. If anyone cares, I'm Swedish, live in NYC, am a member of the automotive project, and generally loathe Plymouths (cars). Couldn't be happier that the brand no longer exists, but I still think that its importance as far as the encyclopedia is concerned is high enough to justify disambiguation. Would be interesting to see what it does to the page hits for the two topics. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 02:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I will second that. They really are awful cars (especially the Plymouth Voyagers with the exterior wood trim on the doors—ghastly). The Prowler is a close second though. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support (a disambiguation page) Should be noted that Plymouth, England got 49,896, but Plymouth Colony got 64,603 hits, and combined, Plymouth, Massachusetts and Plymouth (automobile) are viewed almost as much as Plymouth. Not to mention all the other stuff named Plymouth. That means the English city only commands about 25-30% of the traffic of titles named "Plymouth". Usually for a primary topic you need 50-60 Purplebackpack89 02:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support - The car company was named after the American colony which was named after the British town. The car brand is defunct. Both towns have certain claims to history but neither town is particularly high in current global news (at least I don't hear anything about them here in Australia). Any favourite is more related to whether you are British, American or a muscle car fan. Disambiguation pages are exactly for cases like this where there is no clear winner. Let 'Plymouth' be the disambiguation page and all the others use their full name. Stepho (talk) 04:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Support (a disambiguation page): I was going to oppose this, but "Plymouth" as the UK city does not seem to be "primary topic enough" to be assigned the un-dismabiguated title. This is a bit of a UK versus US situation, where the city is the primary topic in the former, with the car the primary topic in the latter. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support Plymouth should be a disambiguation page. Age and population do not make a primary topic. DC T•C 05:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - we went through all this a couple of years ago, over at Talk:Plymouth (disambiguation). Plymouth is the major centre for the whole Devon and Cornwall region, so the widest guess for its metro population would be 1.6 million. It is also a major naval centre too, and as such has played a significant role in UK history. IMHO a primary topic over smaller settlements and the motor company. — Amakuru (talk) 07:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's great and all, and I am sure one could come up with a similar rant for the automotive version, but the argument here is whether Plymouth as the UK city is the primary usage. The answer is yes if one was to consider only the UK perspective, but this is not the case elsewhere. Considering that 54 percent of Americans are "unaware that Sudan is a country in Africa" and 75 percent could not find Indonesia on a world map (according to the National Geographic Society), it would be safe to claim a similar level of illiteracy would apply to Plymouth in the United Kingdom. Now I am not defending this ignorance, I am just pointing out that the primary topic differs between countries, and therefore no single topic can be fairly assigned the un-dismabiguated title. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- For what its worth, the metro population is not significantly more than that of the city - 500,000 would be an overestimate.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Population and history are not major factors to be considered, and 1.6 million can't be right. Amakura, focus on the reasoning in PRIMARYTOPIC; using the criteria there, there CLEARLY is no primary topic Purplebackpack89 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Statistics are not the most important thing in the world, and there are other measures mentioned in WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as useful guidance aside from the page views. Equating car production with population is a particularly poor comparison - you can't compare a car to a human in any meaningful way. In terms of incoming links: There are 3,320 to Plymouth, 656 to Plymouth, Massachusetts and 215 to Plymouth (automobile). This partially is a reflection of the fact that Plymouth, Devon is clearly the most important usage in a historical sense. A real problem underlying this dispute is a type of recentism, in that historical facts are irrelevant and its the current state that matters. In general, the opposes cite the historical importance of the Devon city, whilst the supports ignore this and look at the here and now. Stepho's comment "at least I don't hear anything about them [in the news] here in Australia" is an illustration of this. Which is more correct? The answer depends on what the readers are looking for ultimately - is historical or current info more important?
- One thing I would say is that extended discussion as to which topic is primary is a pretty clear indicator that there is no primary topic, which IMO is more decisive than any number of statistics. If this discussion reaches "no consensus" that should be interpreted as moving this page to Plymouth, Devon not a maintenance of the status quo - if the page was disambiguated and this discussion was to move this Plymouth to the primary page nothing would be moved.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. Boring, but spot on (much more fun to argue about the respective value of Devon cream versus minivans with fake woodgrain). ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 15:00ish, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus on a proposal means the proposal does not have support. No action can be justified based on a lack of consensus. If this proposal fails to get support and the page is moved, then it should be moved back and probably discussed yet again... Fæ (talk) 18:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus in the case of a disambiguation page would indicate an equally opposing opinion on what the primary topic is. Logically it would follow that no topic is the primary topic. I don't see the harm from trying it out for a month. The number of incoming links is only indicative of how many pages link to Plymouth (not to Plymouth, Devon, and how developed British geographic articles are. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The incoming links figures I quoted include those going via Plymouth, England, Plymouth, Devon (and also Plymouth, MA). A lot of the links to this page are British geography, but if you remove all of those you'd still get much more than the others. For example there's 174 incoming links just from articles about US Navy ships. Judging the significance of a link is extremely hard to evaluate but the very high figure for the Devon Plymouth is not merely the result of a higher quantity/quality of articles on British geography (it looks like there's hundreds of links from biographies).--Nilfanion (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The proposal under discussion is whether to move this page. A no consensus result is insufficient justification to move the page. If you wish to create a different proposal then please do so once this one is closed. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 21:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, that's unreasonable and bureaucratic. The proposal is making Plymouth (disambiguation) the primary topic. Moving this page is the result required in order to act on that proposal. The discussion is "what is the primary topic for Plymouth"; not "do you want to move this article from its current title?". A no consensus result means nobody agrees on what the primary topic is, and that there is no primary topic. The only way to keep the article here would be to reach a consensus that Plymouth, Devon IS the primary topic. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Floydian, you have proposed to move this article (as well as the dab page together). If there is no consensus (sometimes 66% in agreement, but don't get technical) in agreement with your proposal, then your proposed move will not go ahead and everything will stay as it is. And yes, Wikipedia is bureaucratic and sometimes shit at decision making, I'm afraid. Jolly Ω Janner 00:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're grasping at straws, and using your own weaselly wording to get past the fact that not everyone agrees.[4]] Right before I posted that, you essentially posted that this can't be a discussion, it has to be a formal move request. So I made the formal request to appease you. The fact remains that this is at the heart of this discussion, not your slithering manipulation.[5] I made it clear at the outset, and am reiterating it now for anybody else who is unclear: This is a discussion about what the primary topic is, NOT a discussion of whether to move the current article. That is something that will happen consequentially. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Floydian, you have proposed to move this article (as well as the dab page together). If there is no consensus (sometimes 66% in agreement, but don't get technical) in agreement with your proposal, then your proposed move will not go ahead and everything will stay as it is. And yes, Wikipedia is bureaucratic and sometimes shit at decision making, I'm afraid. Jolly Ω Janner 00:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, that's unreasonable and bureaucratic. The proposal is making Plymouth (disambiguation) the primary topic. Moving this page is the result required in order to act on that proposal. The discussion is "what is the primary topic for Plymouth"; not "do you want to move this article from its current title?". A no consensus result means nobody agrees on what the primary topic is, and that there is no primary topic. The only way to keep the article here would be to reach a consensus that Plymouth, Devon IS the primary topic. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus in the case of a disambiguation page would indicate an equally opposing opinion on what the primary topic is. Logically it would follow that no topic is the primary topic. I don't see the harm from trying it out for a month. The number of incoming links is only indicative of how many pages link to Plymouth (not to Plymouth, Devon, and how developed British geographic articles are. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus on a proposal means the proposal does not have support. No action can be justified based on a lack of consensus. If this proposal fails to get support and the page is moved, then it should be moved back and probably discussed yet again... Fæ (talk) 18:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. Boring, but spot on (much more fun to argue about the respective value of Devon cream versus minivans with fake woodgrain). ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 15:00ish, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Compromise suggestion There's likely to be seasonal variation in traffic: more looking for Plymouth colony than for the car or than for the English city in the fall season as the U.S. Thanksgiving Day comes up. And people think of muscle cars more in the summer. So set up a bot to rotate primary usage designation quarterly, with one quarter having the disambiguation page up. :) --doncram (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why not just have a Solomon-style "compromise" that has the disambiguation all the time. Purplebackpack89 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- As I recall Solomon stopped short of actually 'disambiguating' the kid. The 'wise' bit was in his determining which was the 'primary' mother without destroying anything. Blakkandekka (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why not just have a Solomon-style "compromise" that has the disambiguation all the time. Purplebackpack89 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support This is just UK-bias. In Canada, the car company would be the primary meaning. In the US it would be the Plymouth colony and its rock or the car company. Wikipedia says that such matters should have a disambiguation page at the prime location. Instead we have a UK city, which doesn't even have a million residents, as primary. Millions of North Americans recognize the car company, much more than some UK city. 76.66.198.128 (talk) 13:33, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose as per reasoning of Fæ and Amakuru. The incomming links and historical value is too much to be ignored. @doncram: Although I praise compromise suggestions (well done for making one!) and generally support a compromise, I think the one you suggested is not really workable and would not be satisfactory to either camp. Has anything like that been done before? Zangar (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Historical value is not a valid reason for a primary topic, and note that Plymouth Colony has almost as much historical significance. You need to base an argument on valid points, such as navigation utility Purplebackpack89 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think Plymouth Colony would ever be referred to as "Plymouth", though. The article does not list it as an alternative name for the colony, so there wouldn't be any navigation problems there. The number of page views that the dismabiguation page gets is far less than Plymouth, indicating that very few people have to navigate away from this article once arriving. Jolly Ω Janner 23:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Historical value is not a valid reason for a primary topic, and note that Plymouth Colony has almost as much historical significance. You need to base an argument on valid points, such as navigation utility Purplebackpack89 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose The car has not been made for nearly 10 years. The first 48 hits on Google refer to the city (excluding 1 hit for WP).--Mhockey (talk) 09:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Bear in mind Google returns localised results - not surprising a Brit gets Plymouth, Devon dominating :)--Nilfanion (talk) 09:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly. I get two results for UK, one for the NHL, two for Massachusetts, one for the university, three for the car (plus all the images) and one for the Plymouth Council of Canada. The fact that they haven't been made for 10 years means absolutely nothing. Chrystler refocused, hence why their cars all changed after Plymouth dissolved. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 12:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. Incoming links favour this article, and I don't think that many are incorrectly targeted. However, more importantly this is the most viewed topic of the 4 most important (Plymouth, Devon, Plymouth, Massachusetts, Plymouth (automobile) and Plymouth Colony). The traffic for Plymouth Colony especially and to a lesser extent for Plymouth, MA is noticeably dependent on the time of year; due to the small matter of Thanksgiving. eg in March the stats tell a different story to at present: this page got 32k, Plymouth, MA 11k, the car 14k and the colony 22k. In December, the colony is most viewed (as this is a direct result of a mention on Main page it should be discounted). Now 32k (of 79k) is not decisively most of the traffic, but show this is the most important topic of the name and does get the most incoming links from other articles (Plymouth Colony gets 571 so combined for other 3 major uses is less than half to here, even if you discount the 424 template links (which may also have prose links) and include these for the others).--Nilfanion (talk) 09:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Rephrase this slightly - note that my oppose is relatively on the "weak" side. Traffic stats indicate the city is the most frequent usage. Plymouth Colony is at times more popular, but this is a temporal phenomenon (it had a jump in popularity coinciding N American schools returning and will fall off again by Christmas). However, Incoming links tell a completely different story - Plymouth, Devon = 3,272, Plymouth, Massachusetts = 667, Plymouth (automobile) = 288, Plymouth Colony = 564. Total count for Devon is more than double the other 3 uses asserted to be important.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm doubtful that the automobile brand ever approached the city so far as primary usage of the term goes, always being just a budget brand of Chrysler rather than an independent maker, but now it's out of production its claim is even less. And Chrysler obviously realise this, or they would still use it! Andrewa (talk) 12:22, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support Giving the primary use to the community is rather British-centric and doesn't take the world view into account. I argue that the automobile was the primary topic in the United States before the automobile production stopped. So there is no clear cut primary topic when you consider the world view. It is not one of the most prominent cities in the world so that's no reason to make it primary. This move has been brought up several times before and the commenting was skewed. Having only 32k of 79k traffic for the community means that over half of the people went to the wrong page! Royalbroil 05:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- I sincerely doubt that half the people went to the wrong page. First of all, few people would search "Plymouth" when looking for "Plymouth Colony" and second of all, the disambiguation page gets a tiny number of page views, indicating that very few people landed at the wrong Plymouth and has to go through the dab page to find the right article. Most people get to Wikipedia via Google and now even Wikipedia has an interactive search bar, which helps people to spot the right article as they type it. Jolly Ω Janner 12:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support (a disambiguation page) Like Purplebackpack89, I feel there is a significant enough traffic split here that primary topic is blurry, particularly when regional factors are incorporated. As noted by 76.66.198.128, the car is the primary topic in Canada, Plymouth, Massachusetts & Plymouth Colony are likely US primary topic and Plymouth, Devon being primary in the UK. Plymouth may receive the most traffic, but it's not a convincing nor blow-out lead. Likewise, I don't think you can classify the Plymouth Colony traffic as being the result of one day. Since about the 30 Aug its been pulling in an average of 2-3K daily[6][7][8] and 23 Dec works out to be only about 4.5K[9], so its not a one-day-wonder type article. All added together Plymouth is not pulling in the 50%+ traffic often needed to be classified the primary topic.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - Some random North American car is barely known outside of that area and a handful of little places over there, hardly constitutes a primary topic case? Jeni (talk) 10:37, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- "Handful of little places?" Seriously, the first city in New England is a "little place?" A major American colony (which I might add outhits your English city 2:1) is a "little place". One of the top 10-15 American car brands for half a century "some random North American car". Read LABattBoy's comment above; also remember to keep a global perspective; many more people who use this live in North America than in England Purplebackpack89 23:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Not sure what data you're looking at, Purplebackpack, but in Feb 2010: Plymouth (23,699) vs Plymouth Colony (20,230). Not quite the 2:1 ratio as you suggested, not to mention that Plymouth Colony isn't used as "Plymouth", maybe "New Plymouth", but it's not like anyone refers to "New York" as "York". Jolly Ω Janner 00:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- First off, I have never heard Plymouth Colony referred to as "New Plymouth", I have only heard it referred to as "Plymouth". The term New Plymouth went out with the (16)'90s. And if you lot at hit counts, if you looked at something more recent, you'd find the margin was a lot farther between the Colony and the English city. And if Plymouth Colony is even dead even with Plymouth, England, that brings the primary topic call into serious question Purplebackpack89 03:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- The article on Plymouth Coloony only lists "New Plymouth" as an alternative name and not "Plymouth". I cannot just take your word that it's refered to as "Plymouth". Jolly Ω Janner 12:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- "Handful of little places?" Seriously, the first city in New England is a "little place?" A major American colony (which I might add outhits your English city 2:1) is a "little place". One of the top 10-15 American car brands for half a century "some random North American car". Read LABattBoy's comment above; also remember to keep a global perspective; many more people who use this live in North America than in England Purplebackpack89 23:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - To be honest I have never herd of the Plymouth in the motorist sense and I bet most of the English speaking world doesn't know what it is either. Just because its the main topic in Canada doesn't make it more important because its not the main topic in the UK, US, AU and NZ. Anyone who wants Plymouth Colony and just types Plymouth is at their own fault because the place is not called Plymouth, but Plymouth Colony its like calling Stratford-upon-Avon just Stratford.Likelife (talk) 11:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose — the city of Plymouth is the primary topic. Although it is not the primary topic in US and Canada, that does not mean Wikipedia should not treat it as the primary topic, because all parts of the world have localised bias. Ignoring the bias of both the US & Canada and the UK, the city stands out as the one and only primary topic for the word "Plymouth". Outside of US and Canada, no one would have heard of the car company and would not associate the town in Massachusetts. The city, having its own history and culture has international significance, not just historical, but current with a large international-reaching university and the largest naval base in Europe. On a technical note, the city receives more page views than the town in Massachusetts, the car brand and the disambiguation page added together (note that the disambiguation page has a tiny number of page views indicating that very few people navigate away from the city article upon finding it; the other article's page views are good estimates). Jolly Ω Janner 12:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment as of Jolly's oppose, I count 10 opposes and 9 support. 8 opposers are from the U.K. and I'm unable to determine where 2 are from. There are 4 supports from the U.S. and the rest of the supports are from other places around the world. Several of the supporters are clearly automobile people like I am. I urge the person who closes this discussion to consider the final tallies on these number to get the world view of this discussion as this should be decided for the reader and take out the biases of the Wikipedians. Royalbroil 13:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- That seems unfair if someone put forward a good reason to oppose/support the move and was disregarded because they are from a so-called "bias" country. Jolly Ω Janner 13:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like the Ireland naming farce all over again if I'm honest! Jeni (talk) 13:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- I can only assume you have been careful to only make statements about people who have declared where they live on their user pages rather than jumping to conclusions based on project memberships or any other indirect analysis. Unfortunately this puts unnecessary focus on people who have not made any direct declaration of personal details. If anyone is tempted to pursue such analysis, please carefully take into account the WP:PRIVACY policy before making further statements here about the nature of contributors. Fæ (talk) 14:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's only wise to consider the weight of regional input. If 50 British users say OPPOSE and 10 from Canada, 15 from the US, 2 from India, 1 from South Africa, 2 from China, 5 Europeans (other than Britain) and 3 British users SUPPORT, then obviously there is a localized bias that should be accounted for, despite that 50 to 38 count against the motion. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, it seems highly unwise. The privacy of contributors to Wikipedia is protected by policy, attempting to classify contributors to this discussion, challenging them about their nationality or to pressure them to declare where they live is against policy and may be treated as an attempt at outing. Fæ (talk) 16:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fay, if they post their nationality on their User page (and a great many due), we have not violated privacy by ascertaining it Purplebackpack89 23:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, contributors are free to post information about themselves on their user pages. My point is that analysing user pages on an unclear basis and then synthesizing this information is highlighting minority groups and putting pressure on people to explain who they are as part of contributing here. If we were to limit a discussion by saying "Black Americans only please" or "No Arabs thankyou" this would be considered strictly against policy, counting up !votes by nationality is offensive and marginalizes contributions on exactly the same principles. Fæ (talk) 11:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fay, if they post their nationality on their User page (and a great many due), we have not violated privacy by ascertaining it Purplebackpack89 23:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, it seems highly unwise. The privacy of contributors to Wikipedia is protected by policy, attempting to classify contributors to this discussion, challenging them about their nationality or to pressure them to declare where they live is against policy and may be treated as an attempt at outing. Fæ (talk) 16:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's only wise to consider the weight of regional input. If 50 British users say OPPOSE and 10 from Canada, 15 from the US, 2 from India, 1 from South Africa, 2 from China, 5 Europeans (other than Britain) and 3 British users SUPPORT, then obviously there is a localized bias that should be accounted for, despite that 50 to 38 count against the motion. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I initially assumed a disambiguation page would be a sensible compromise, but having read through both pages, I think an historic city clearly outweighs an automobile brand. Maybe I am biased against automobiles, but there simply isn't very much to say about them, when compared to a city. The disambiguation page is also informative - there are many other places and things named after the city in Devon, England. To my mind, this gives the city primacy. GyroMagician (talk) 13:43, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment. It's important to note that we're not merely comparing the city to the automobile brand; there are other topics covered by the name "Plymouth" that all seem to be of comparable importance, so they should be considered collectively. (It's like the difference between a majority and a plurality; if we did nothing but count uses to determine WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, an article would need a majority of uses, not merely a plurality, to be considered the primary topic.) Powers T 15:05, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Does that make a page like the redirect for Elvis against policy as Elvis (disambiguation) has more than 50 alternative articles and so in plurality must outweigh even Elvis Presley? Fæ (talk) 15:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: I'd to again call attention to Royal's comment that the opposes are, to a man, from the UK, an area that constitutes a mere 1% of the world's population. The supports are from the other 99% of the world Purplebackpack89 23:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- The other 99% of the world? Why is the UK excluded from the rest of the world? Stevebritgimp (talk) 23:52, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Worldwide Point of View > British Point of View. WP:NPOV - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's somewhat degradig to the poor folk of Britain, but anyway the following users have opposed the move and have not stated that they live in the UK: Andrewa, Amakuru, Fæ and Ilikeeatingwaffles; 36% of opposers. Jolly Ω Janner 00:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- First let's assume good faith. Secondly greater than does not mean 99:1. UK pov is part of worldwide pov. Also having read WP:NPOV I can't see any reference to location of users. Is that on a sub-page? Also I'm not sure about the applicability of WP:NPOV on this issue. Stevebritgimp (talk) 00:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- The theory is that users from the UK are bias towards Plymouth being a primary topic, users from the US being bias towards Plymouth Colony and car fanatics having bias towards the car brand. When reviewing the discussion a closing admin should take into account these "biases" to decide the course of action. How on Earth an admin makes such a complex decision is beyond me... glad I'm not an admin is all I can say! Jolly Ω Janner 00:29, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed! Seeing as we're bringing in the rest of the world's population here, I was just checking out how many wikipedias each of the four big pages were in. The city gets nearly sixty, while the other pages don't manage half that. Stevebritgimp (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- The theory is that users from the UK are bias towards Plymouth being a primary topic, users from the US being bias towards Plymouth Colony and car fanatics having bias towards the car brand. When reviewing the discussion a closing admin should take into account these "biases" to decide the course of action. How on Earth an admin makes such a complex decision is beyond me... glad I'm not an admin is all I can say! Jolly Ω Janner 00:29, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- First let's assume good faith. Secondly greater than does not mean 99:1. UK pov is part of worldwide pov. Also having read WP:NPOV I can't see any reference to location of users. Is that on a sub-page? Also I'm not sure about the applicability of WP:NPOV on this issue. Stevebritgimp (talk) 00:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's somewhat degradig to the poor folk of Britain, but anyway the following users have opposed the move and have not stated that they live in the UK: Andrewa, Amakuru, Fæ and Ilikeeatingwaffles; 36% of opposers. Jolly Ω Janner 00:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Worldwide Point of View > British Point of View. WP:NPOV - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your figure is spurious and based on speculation about other editors that breaches WP:OUTING. Fæ (talk) 05:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- So North Americans arn't being bias here? Some how the oldest and biggest Plymouth in the world isn't more important compared to a defunct car making company or other Plymouth's which are in North America and doesn't have half of this Plymouth's population? And your the ones NOT being bias?Likelife (talk) 11:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- The other 99% of the world? Why is the UK excluded from the rest of the world? Stevebritgimp (talk) 23:52, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Support - There are multiple meanings of Plymouth besides the British city, such as Plymouth, Massachusetts, Plymouth, Montserrat, and Plymouth (automobile). Other British cities that are also common names for other places such as Dover that need to be moved to less ambiguous titles. Dough4872 01:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- For the record, I have started a discussion concerning Dover, see Talk:Dover#Requested move. Dough4872 01:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment Plymouth is an American car company, not a Canadian one, but it has higher visibility in Canada than the other values of Plymouth. So it is not just known in Canada, it is also known in the US and Mexico. It is very widely known in North America, as exemplified by detective fiction that identifies makes of cars, with Plymouths appearing in them, and the high visibility of cars such as the Plymouth Prowler, Plymouth Voyager, Plymouth Reliant, Plymouth muscle cars. And "economy division" does not mean low visibility, as the Chevrolet division can attest to, as it is a still existing division. The arguments for Keeping Plymouth where it is, seem to take only the UK into account, ignoring what is primary in North America. If there are different primary topics in different places, you cannot say that the UK one is the sole primary usage. Obviously there should be a dismabiguation page at the primary location. The US and Canada is not a small portion of the English speaking world, nor is it a small amount of area of the entire world. 76.66.199.238 (talk) 05:24, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Detective fiction? Are there any Italian Oratorios with them in? Stevebritgimp (talk) 15:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - this is primary topic for the title Plymouth. No reason to change. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - all other meanings are derived from or named after the city. Yorkshire Phoenix 12:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's not a reason according to WP:PRIMARY DC T•C 14:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - I think putting a DAB page in place is a bad idea, and is very reader unfriendly. The Devonian town is by far the most widely known usage of the term. I use wide because the american view is not a WP:WORLDVIEW
- Nor is the British view. DC T•C 14:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fmph didn't say that it was only a British view. It is possible that the world view is the same as the British view. Jolly Ω Janner 15:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- But there's no proof of that. DC T•C 15:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- If you look, for example, at the German and Japanese pages for Plymouth and Plymouth, Massachusetts and do a what links here you will see that there are more references to the original English town.--Traveler100 (talk) 18:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- But there's no proof of that. DC T•C 15:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Fmph didn't say that it was only a British view. It is possible that the world view is the same as the British view. Jolly Ω Janner 15:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Worldwide view? 60 language versions of WP have articles on the English city, compared with 18 for the car, and 23 for the place in MA. All except 7 (Ido, Lithuanian, Dutch, Portuguese, Russian, Slovak and Ukrainian) have the English city as the primary topic (or 9 if you count French and Breton, where the articles are entitled Plymouth (Angleterre) and Plymouth (Bro-Saoz), but the city is listed "en premier lieu" on the dab page). Only 1 (Russian) has the car in Roman script as the primary topic - Plymouth, but that is a special case because the article on the city has a Cyrillic title. No WP has the place in MA as the primary topic. --Mhockey (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Strong oppose for all and any of the oppose comments above. I am further suggesting, due to evidence and comments elsewhere, that this sudden proposal that concerns several major UK cities among which are featured articles, has been made for reasons that do not concern the neutrality of our encyclopdia. --Kudpung (talk) 23:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment : This discussion is premature due an ongoing policy discussion on policy that has not yet been resolved. --Kudpung (talk) 00:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Change of heart - Oppose - The number of incoming links are incontrovertible (and I spent nearly three hours redirecting links really aiming at Plymouth (automobile), hoping such was not the case!), as are the number of pages on other projects which have Plymouth, Devon as their primary for "Plymouth". As much as cars matter to me, and they do, in this case the status quo is fine. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 06:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Done. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per Mr.choppers et al., and Mhockey's comment @ 19:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC); the number of incoming links shores up the usage statistics and demonstrates which is the more broadly notable usage. Additionally a move would seem to disrupt rather than benefit. pablo 09:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Comment If we rename all the proposed (Plymouth, Cambridge, Sydenham, Dover, Peterborough, York and Cornwall) then its only right to rename all of the places listed here: List of locations in the United States with an English name which would just be unneeded and silly. Likelife (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Most, if not all, of those pages are already named "City, State", so isn't this a moot argument? --Vossanova o< 18:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Oppose I oppose this and all the other nonsense (IMHO) renames which have cropped up from the same user. In all cases the UK town/city pre-dates all the other uses which are typically small (and invariably attractive places in other parts of the world e.g. Manchester, Massachusetts. Cambridge, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Manchester, Gloucester, Essex - all these were first and foremost British locations and that is still their primary use around the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a disambiguation hatnote in an article. --Simple Bob (talk) 18:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Support. If I was closing this discussion today, I would close it in favor of a move for the following reasons:
- The underlying issue here is whether the city in Devon is the primary topic for Plymouth.
- This determination should not be made by counting the Support and Oppose votes; this determination should be made by evaluating the quality of the arguments made, with particular attention to how much is based on policy, guidelines and conventions, and considering the consensus of the Wikipedia community at large as reflected in policy, guidelines and conventions like WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
- The "historical significance" of a subject is not directly relevant to primary topic determination. All Oppose arguments based on the assertion that "historical significance" matters here need to be discounted accordingly (if that is their sole basis they should be ignored entirely).
- Simply asserting that the topic is or is not the primary topic is not an argument; any such baseless assertions of opinion need to be discounted or even completely ignored accordingly.
- Counting incoming links is not nearly as strong an indicator of primary topic as is actual page hit counts (because of the criteria discussed on #9).
- Repeated and extended discussions and debates about whether this topic is the primary topic is strong indication in and of itself that no topic is primary for the term in question (in this case, Plymouth).
- Myriads of 10 year old kids doing reports on Thanksgiving by googling for Plymouth are not served well be being taken, confusingly, to a Wikipedia article about a city in England rather than to a dab page. The hatnote is easily missed by young and inexperienced eyes.
- Many who oppose this move are obviously geographically biased. To their credit, at least one admitted that the city in Devon is the primary topic for Plymouth only in the U.K. (and not in the U.S., Canada, Australia, South Africa or the rest of the English speaking world).
- The primary topic criteria is "much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters that term in the Search box". No one has argued (remember, assertions are not arguments), much less shown, that either criterion is true in this case. No data suggests that the city in Devon is "much more likely than any other [use of Plymouth]" to be the subject sought by a reader entering the term in Search, or that it is "more likely than all the others combined" to be sought. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)