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:: Of course not I'm not suggesting anything like that. But it is not clear what conclusion to draw from a murder of 1 Ukrainian woman. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 00:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
:: Of course not I'm not suggesting anything like that. But it is not clear what conclusion to draw from a murder of 1 Ukrainian woman. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 00:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::: Clearly, the conclusion is anything that makes the Poles look bad should be censored --'''[[User:Lvivske|Львівске]]''' <small>([[User talk:Lvivske|talk]])</small> 01:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
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Old talk
Genyo:
1) POlish pacification campaigns were not mass murders. Polish police was behaving brutally, but accidents of deaths were almost nill.
2) There is nothing like "scholarly" and "non-scholarly" estimation. You label those which you like "Scholarly" and others "non-scholarly" that's all.
3) There is a lot which talks us that ethnic cleansing was initiated by local UPA commanders, and not by individual groups. Szopen
Szopen:
1) The pacification campaigns involved political suppressions of the innocent and their arrests, wanton destruction of property and attacks on those who protested--and the deaths of many people--sometimes deliberate.
2) I'm not talking about "something like scholarly estimations." But I am talking about scholarly estimates. There are a few scholars in Poland who study the issue on a scholarly level, and their figures tend to be around 30,000-60,000. Popular literature campaigns tend to assert the figures of 100,00 to 300,000. In the further interests of accuracy, you don't know what I like--which is OK, because what I like or don't like is irrelevant to the article.
3) There is no evidence I know of to suggest that the UPA leadership ordered this attack on Polish civilians/settlers in Volynia. Groups of UPA soldiers, whoever, and, I think probably some "units" under many local leaders did engage in sporadic killings on a very widespread scale in an attempt to drive Poles out of Volynia. That's a crime.
Genyo 17:17, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I will respond by tuesday - i have to find material to support my claims Szopen
Hey Szopen, if you can find proof of scholarly research yielding higher estimates, I would not object to including them! Genyo 01:16, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi Genyo! "There are few scholars in Poland who study it..." Hehehehe. I won't post whole bibliography, just few names: Poliszczuk (Polish Ukrainian), Torzecki, Gross, Siemiaszko, Siwicki (Polish Ukrainian), Jasiak, Filar, Romanowski, HUk (Polish Ukrainian), Mazur, Turowski...
The numbers:
Norman Davies: 60.000 - 500.000 Jan P. Gross: 60-80.000 (Polish society under German occupation, Princetown, New York 1979) Siemiaszko's: 50-60.000 in Wolyn alone, probably 100.000 in Total. Siemiaszko's (father and daughter) documented that it was action of Bandera, not sporadic local units. POliszczuk: 50-60.000 in Wolyn, 120.000 in total. Poliszczuk also is convinced, that is was action of UPA, not sporadic units. Torzecki: 40.000 in Wolyn, 100.000 in total, blames Bandera and UPA Fijalka: 40.000 Turowski: 60.000 in Wolyn, 300.000 in total. Olszanski: blames Bandera and UPA. He also notes that most ukrainian historians does not distinguish between AK and 2000-strong collaborationist police "Polish" batallion which German employed here. Motyka: at least 35.000 on Volyn alone, but 50-60.000 is also reasonable (for Volyn alone) Szczesniak, Szota: 100.000 Poles murdered in total, both in Galicia and Volyn. Bogumila Berdychowska: gives different estimates from 34.647 documented (and 12.491 known from name) via 50.000 to 60.000 (on Volyn alone)
Hrycak (Ukrainian) 60-100.000
There is also (unscholar) estimation that Bandera's soldiers murdered also 80.000 their Ukrainian compatriots.
In short, all Polish historians blame Bandera and consider this central-ordered action. Essentially i don't know single Polish author who would not consider it action sanctioned by UPA. There is no order preserved starting it, but there are documents given after the start, in which there is e.g. ordered burning even trees around villages. The number of murdered is between 30-60.000, truth, but on VOlyn alone, and in total is between 100-120 thousands or more.
Also, this is not some "local units". E.g 11 July started actions which lasted to the august - during two mothns 1943 dies more Poles than during two previous years. In august also there are orders about distribution of land from destroyed Polish villages etc. (by Dmytro Kljaczkiwśkyj ). There are raports of coordinated marches of multiple UPA units which destroyed every Polish village during march. Between 11 and 15 July 167 Polish villages were attacked and detroyed. Ukrainian helping Poles were punished by death by UPA.
Number of Ukrainian victims is between 2.5 thousand to 10.000 in Volyn alone, according to most Polish authors.
I was tracing regular Polish-Ukrainian meetings of historians, and until now there is no agreement between them. IIRC They were only able to sign "document of disagreement" were they stated what each side believe. Disagreements included e.g the earlier NSZ actions in Chelmszczyzna. Szopen
Szopen, This is a kaleidoscope of numbers, that seems to add much confusion and very little clarity. Also, much of the numbers tend to be towards the lower end of figures in the article.
Secondly, remember, not every person with a typewriter and printer is a scholar. Nor is every person who runs a publication campaign. Some of the names you mention are fine historians. But did they pull figures from other sources in passing, or did they actually conduct historical research on this question and then construct the most likely figure or range based on facts?
It's the second one I'm interested in. And I've heard there are a couple of scholars who have done or are doing this kind of work. (There may be more.) What did they say?
An alternative analytical way to look at the issue is to ask the following questions. What was the Polish population in Volynia pre-war? How many died in the first Soviet invasion of 1939 and in subsequent fighting? How many starved or died of illness? How many fled or went abroad to work? How many were deported by the Soviets post 1943? How many Polish people in Poland and other countries today trace their ancestry to Volynia? And how many were killed by local actions of the UPA? Genyo 15:10, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The names are from publication "Polish and Ukrainians historians and problems of XX century", materials from joint conference about Polish-Ukrainian relationship, part of cooperation between Polish historians and Ukrainians.
So, the names i quoted ARE based on partial documents, testimonies etc.
To the second question, well, after reading a lot i tend to think that indeed the number of victims was not much higher than 60.000 on VOlyn alone and not more than 200.000 in all massacres.
I've read statistics from which it was concluded that from those Poles which stayed in Volyn (something like 150.000) after deportations etc about 45% was murdered by UPA actions (something like 60.000). That's why i think the number of killed couldn't be more than 100.000 (In Volun alone, but remember the UPA started killings in Volyn, but the massacres weren't limited to Volyn). Szopen
The new version
I altered the article a bit to conform with the Inverted pyramid rule of thumb. Perhaps a good idea would be to create a table with all the estimations on the number of civilian losses on both sides to give the reader a general idea as to what the ranges are without having to decide which number is the closest to the truth? If the historians cannot decide, why should we? Halibutt 13:04, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, since nobody seems to be interested in this article anymore, I prepared a table with all the estimates. Let the reader decide for himself or herself. What do you think?
I also removed the publicity campaign thingie. This would lead us nowhere since in Ukraine there are also a lot of morons who try to support their case with numbers, whatever they may be ([1]). Is it acceptable? I also planned to add some photos, although most of them are too drastic IMO. Especially those with children tied up to a tree with barbed wire...
Anyway, is the article acceptable now? Halibutt 09:09, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)
I couldn't make any sense out of this article as I originally found it. I know absolutely nothing about this subject (and even after reading it, I still don't. Not a good sign.), but I speak English, so I tried to edit it into a more natural sounding essay. I also added some small explanations for readers who don't already know all about Polish history. The big thing still missing is when, exactly, did all this take place? Sept. 18, 2004
why Npov
Nothing is said about Polish collaboration with Nazi's against UPA and civilian Ukrainians
Meaby because... that never happened.--Witkacy 13:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
but it did Ilya K 13:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
- Some historians i;ve read mentuioned (without details) POlish police batallion, 2000 people strong, which was employed by Nazis here and which (supposedly) was mistaken by some Ukrainian historians with AK. How believable is this, I don't know - i've read just a single sentence and could not dig out anything more about that. Szopen 07:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Evidence of Polish terror
sorry, i haven't noticed this words in article Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia#Casualties
- Retaliation by the Polish forces of the Home Army resulted in the deaths of additional 15,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian civilians of the region, though the exact number of deaths is even less documented. The numbers cited probably include also the victims of German Schutzmannschaft and Soviet partisans, who also took part in the ethnic cleansing. There are efforts to bring about reconciliation between the Polish people and Ukrainians over these tragic events.
- Только на Волыни под немецкой оккупацией в 1943-1944 годах поляки уничтожили не менее 10 тысяч украинцев, а украинцы – не менее 25 тысяч поляков
- (en:)Onlly on Volynya Poles killed at least 10 000 Ukrainains, and Urainians killed at least 25 000 Poles
- Правда також полягає в тому, що жертви під час тих трагічних подій були обопільними . В межах численних "відплатних" та "превентивних" акцій АК загинуло чимало мирних українців, серед них діти й жінки. Терористичні акції, як вважають історики, здійснювались не лише проти польських сіл та колоній на кшталт Гайового, Ганачової, Ігровиці, Гути Пеняцької, але й проти українських сіл, таких як Іваничі, Клечковичі, Стриженець, Турковичі та інших. Антиукраїнські акції проводились у багатьох регіонах, зокрема в Томашівському та Грубешовському повітах Любельського воєводства. Щоправда, згідно з поширеною оцінкою, ці жертви були меншими, ніж польські; але це знову ж таки не змінює того факту, що вбивства були спрямовані проти цивільного населення.
- (en:)Victims were on both sides. In their numerous "revenge" and "prevention" actions AK killed many civil Ukrainians, including children and women. Terror action, according to historians, were not only against Polish villages and colonies such as Гайового, Ганачової, Ігровиці, Гути Пеняцької but also againt Ukrainain villages such as Іваничі, Клечковичі, Стриженець, Турковичі and others. Antiukrainian actions took place in many regions, such as Томашівському та Грубешовському повітах Любельського воєводства. To be true, according to widespread estimation those victims were less numerous than among Poles, but this cannot change the fact that murders were against civil people.
This includes many publications of Polish and Ukrainain historians, analysing them may give more weighted point of view
- Варто згадати, що не раз траплялися випадки польської помсти, неодноразово кривавої, жертвою якої ставали люди, що не мали нічого спільного з нападами. Для прикладу, 8 березня 1944 p. після нападу на село Блищиводи застрелено кільканадцять українців, які поверталися з ярмарку у Жовкві. Також у березні 1944 p. жовніри львівського Кедиву у Сороках коло Старого Села застрелили 17 чоловік і місцевого греко-католицького священика разом із сім’єю. В Лопушній вбито 48 українських фірманів з Першої та Підтемня, які їхали по деревину. Часом висилали українцям листівки з вимогою виїзду, аналогічні до тих, що висилала УПА. В одній з них читаємо: “Українці! Вбивства і напади ваших банд [...] не дають нам співжити [...]. Отже наказую українському населенню протягом 48 годин залишити місцевості, в яких живуть поляки. Відмова виконати наказ каратиметься смертю” [35]. І ще одна цитата, яка, думаю, добре ілюструє тодішню трагічну дійсність: “13 червня в Антонівці застрелено поляка. Полякам вдалося спіймати 1 українця, якого зарубали” [36].
- (en:)We should note numerous cases of polish revenge, often bloody, agains random people. For example (...)
- Однією із найважчих тем, що стосуються польсько-українського конфлікту 1939-1948 рр., є питання польських акцій супроти українського цивільного населення. Упродовж багатьох років у польській історіоґрафії панувала думка, що поляки не провадили дій проти цивільних1. Жінки, діти чи беззбройні чоловіки могли загинути від рук поляків хіба випадково, внаслідок нещасливого збігу обставин. Виняток із цього правила становили антиукраїнські акції народного підпілля, про які писали для того, щоби здискредитувати в очах польського суспільства воїнів Національних Збройних Сил чи Національного Військового З’єднання2.
- (en:) One of the hardest topics on Poliash-Ukrainain conflict 1939-1948 is Polish action againt Ukrainain civil people. Thought that Poles did't carry actions against civil people dominated along many years among Polish historians.
- Падіння комунізму відкрило можливість вільно, хоча й не без емоцій, дискутувати на цю тему. Зараз уже ніхто з польських істориків не заперечує, що поляки вдавалися до акцій у відповідь, нерідко безжальних і кривавих. Суперечка точиться лише про оцінку, масштаби і розміри подій цього типу. Тут я маю намір лише окреслити проблему.
- (en:) The fall of Communism let freely althogh emotionally dispute on this topic. Nowadays none of polish historians denies the fact of Polish revenge actions, often ruthless and bloody.
- Найяскравішим прикладом антиукраїнських дій були пацифікаційні акції, які провадила польська допоміжна поліція, що перебувала на німецькій службі
- (en:) The brightest example of antiUkrainain actions was pacification actions carried by Polish helping police on Nazi service.
- Село Підлужне оточене і спалене, мешканців розстріляно. Злазне спалене дощенту.
- (en:) village Pidluzhne surrounded and burned, inhabitants killed. Zlazne burned to nothing
- Каральні акції провадили також відділи польської комуністичної партизанки. Серед инших вони спалили села Любеньж і Лахвичі. У звітах про акцію у Лахвичах навіть йшлося про “вирізування українського населення”
- (en:) Actions were carried out also by Polish communist partisans. Among others they burned villages Любеньж і Лахвичі. It was “cutting out ukrainian people”
Ilya K 12:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- For reference, two of those sites have English names and sections:
- Kiev Center of Political Studies and Conflictology
- The Independent cultural journal “Ї”. It doesn't seem to be an academic publication, though - they call themselves 'non-governmental public organisation'.
- this site, although with nice web design, seems to be only in Russian
- Also, I'd appreciate if for the above quotes you could add information on title, author, date and affilated academic journal/institution (university, usually) - if any. See Wikipedia:Cite sources for details. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
As a sidenote: the page is in Ukrainian, not in Russian. Halibutt
Poliszczuk is not a historian, he graduated with a political science degree (actually, on his book he calls it a law degree but Siemaszkos disagree for some reason). I don't know the Siemaszko's background - are they like Poliszczuk also amateurs? That being said, their reliance on Moscow-published sources is rather telling. The article above comes out looking like an attack on real historians (Torzecki) by opinionated non-historians who cannot even get their facts straight. For example, Ukrainian-American Orest Subtelny does not work in the US, but in Canada, although he obtained his Ph.D. in history at Harvard in 1973. His book is published by the University of Toronto Press. In contrast, Poliszczuk does not have any degree in history. And his books are self-published; certainly no university would ruin their reputation publishing his amateur historical opinions. It is frankly ridiculous to compare the two.
Whoeever wrote the above nonsense is an amateur propagandist as well as amateur historian, because they cannot even hide their agenda, in the end of their article mentioning their oppostion to Ukrainian-Polish strategic partnership, support for East German politicians opposed to German reunification, etc. I guess some people really regret the events starting in 1989. Faustian 14:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have read nothing by Poliszczuk, and I know little about the matter of hand. But while I agree that publisher info is important on judging how respected one's works are, I don't think the same hold true for degree. I can believe that a political sciencetist could write perfectly good academic books on the subjects of history or sociology, for example. If Poliszczuk is controversial, we should find sources stating that. Information on his publisher should be visible in references, and the reader can judge their quality. While you certainly raise good points about whether we should use his references, we need more info before we determine what to do with it. Wikipedia:Reliable sources may come in handy, too.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that a lawyer can write a good history book, but in the case of Poliszczuk it seems that he used the credential "Dr." misleadingly, in order to present himself as a historian. This reminds me of a notorious American Christian fundamentalist "Dr." stating that the theory of evolution is wrong. He was a legitmate Ph.D., but of mathematics rather than biology. A similar situation exists with Dr. Poliszczuk, who as I indicated not only lacks the academic background but also must self-publish his works, rather than have them printed by (as legitimate historians do) peer-referenced journals, university publishing houses, etc. There is a wikipedia article on Wiktor Poliszczuk. The discussion section is interesting.
A legitimate Polish historian, Ryszard Torzecki, offered a quick assessment of Poliszczuk as an NKVD guy whose opinions are worthless: http://www.brama.com/survey/messages/23280.html (the original interview is no longer on the on-line archive). This is highly suggested by Poliszczuk's career. He was sent to Siberia where perhaps something went right for him - afterwards he settled in Wroclaw, obtained a Ph.D. in law during the times of the communist regime, moved to Toronto in 1981 where he then engaged in antagonizing the fiercely anti-Communist Ukrainian community there.
Torzecki's works have been published by Harvard and he is considered one of the most important experts on Polish-Ukrainian relations: http://www.huri.harvard.edu/cat.ukrainian.html. Faustian 14:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Poliszczuk is an interesting author, certainly worth being mentioned, but not referenced as a source. He certainly is a historian by profession (and not by education, but that's not a requirement). However his research is considered controversial and far from any mainstream, therefore I'd advise a cautious approach. This said, reading him is useful, if only to see one of the POVs. Certainly a better author than e.g. Professor Edward Prus. Anyway, not advised for an uninitiated reader. --Lysytalk 18:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- A good paper that I always recommend in cases like this is Recent Polish Historiography on Polish-Ukrainian Relations during World War II and its Aftermath by Rafał Wnuk. --Lysytalk 18:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The victim table
Why does it say in the beginning of the article that "approximately 100,000 Poles were massacred in Volhynia" when the tables largest figure is 80.000? Some figures are even as "low" as 35.000. Where does 100.000 come from? (Dynamok)
Background and further comments
I've added a detailed background to the tragic events in Volhynia but have noticed that the talk about the massacres themselves is somewhat sparse. While gruesome details about the things done may not be appropriate, perhaps someone with access to Polish historical (not "non-scientific" please) sources could provide more info on the places, etc. Faustian 18:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- It is quite difficult, as most of the sources differ on these, and most of the more specific statements are controversial one or another way. As for the references, I find the book by Andrzej Sowa to be quite reasonable and comprehensive, I only don't have it at hand now. --Lysytalk 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Number of colonists
The number of colonists and victims contradicts the artice Osadnik, which actually gives official data about resettlement into Kresy (Western Belarus and Western Ukraine), of which the Volhynian Voivodship was part of. Surely the number of colonists in Volhynia cant be larger than in the whole Kresy. `'mikka (t) 17:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Subtelny's Ukraine: A History (1988, University of Toronto Press) states that initially army veterans made up most of the colonists but that later civilians predominated, and that "despite the fact that Galicia was one of the most overpopulated agricultural regions in Europe, the Polish settlers received largea llotments of the best land as well as generous financial subsidies. Those who chose not to work on the land obtained positions as village policemen, postal or railroad employees, or petty officials. Ukrainian sources claim that by 1938 200,00 Poles had moved into the villages of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia and another 100,00 settled in the towns; Polish writers place the total number of colonists at less than 100,000." Subtelny noted that while the number of colonists was too small the dramatically affect the ethnic composition, it was large enough to be a major source of resentment to the local (land-starved) Ukrainian peasants.Faustian 20:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Snyder in "The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999" also notes the land reform and arrival of colonists, see this Google Books link. --Irpen 01:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Picture
The event depicted took place in Ternopil region that is outside Volhynia in the modern Ukraine. Is it OK to consider Ternopil to be Volhynian for the purpose of the article? abakharev 22:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Tarnopol Voivodship and Volhynian Voivodship is different Voivodship of Second Polish Republic. I remove this disputable image with article. --Yakudza 07:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
May I ask, why the picture that denotes the events that took place in Ternopil area is being reintroduced here all the time despite the talk above? If you really need a picture here, please use a monument constructed now in Poland specifically dedicated to these events. I am not sure this image is GFDL but perhaps someone has an image we are allowed to use. This photo of the events that took place elesewhere does not fit this particular article. --Irpen 23:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- The scope of the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia is much wider and, contrary to what the name would suggest, not limited to the voivodship, but applies to the whole historical region, that included Ternopil. You do not seriously assume, that people conducting the ethnic cleansing would respect the administrative division of the country and limit themselves only to the territory of the pre-war voivodship. As to "monument constructed now in Poland specifically dedicated to these events", I'm not sure what monument do you mean. This one seems like a photo taken at a cemetery to me.--Lysytalk 06:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
If this was indeed of the scale wider than Volhynia why not rename the article to reflect that it is on a wider topic? Say, Anti-Polish events in Western Ukraine, 1943-1944 or something similar. That would also allow to "de-massacre" one more title which is always a good idea. The less martyrdoms and massacres in titles, the less flames we see. All the info about horror should be relayed by the text and not the title. --Irpen 06:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- Because that's how it's called. The slaughter of Poles took place in whole of what is now western Ukraine, though it became known from the accounts of Volhynia first. Renaming would be a decent idea, though in fact we'd be going against the established names I believe. As to massacres - the same arguments apply here, especially given your personal campaign of liberation and such. //Halibutt 08:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- One reason not to rename is to use establised names. The alternative established name would be Volhynia slaghter but massacre seems less loaded. I know that Russian editors have often some problems with the "massacre" word, but I believe this might be because it has some different meaning in Russian than in English. As for Volhynia, I'm sure you know this, that the historical region is much larger than the voivodship alone, and the name of the article seems most adequate. It's not "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia Voivodhip" after all. --Lysytalk 10:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- I remember a while ago Halibutt mentioned that the photo is from a book of a Polish photographer completely filled with similar photos. I guess by both Polish and Ukrainian copyright laws the photos of 1943 are public domain. Is it possible to upload a picture from the same book but of an event that actually happen in Volynia voivodship? And strong but a little less graphic. It will remove a lot of questions. abakharev 11:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think this picture is a very good illustration of the article, honestly. A picture tells more than a thousand words. I agree this one is very disturbing, but is should be. It explains very well why the topic is so emotional and difficult for Poles. There's no hidden agenda behind this. I'm not sure why you insist on Volhynia voivodship ? --Lysytalk 18:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt and Lysy. I gather for this that you prefer "in Volhynia" which is "established" even though it is wrong (as it was of a wider scale). Did I understand you correctly? Ternopil is not only outside Volhynian Voivodship. it is also outside of the historic territory of Volhynia. As such, the title is simply misleading. Descriptive titles are allowed, so what's wrong with that?
Halibutt, I don't object to the usage of "massacre", if the sources use it, in the article but not in the title. I never introduced the word "liberation" you hate so much to a single article's title.
So, could we de-massacre the title and get the name reflect the scale of the events at the same time? --Irpen 17:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- Irpen, I think you are still confusing Volhynia with Volhynian Voivodship. Why would Ternopil need to be inside Volhynian Voivodship ? As for the "massacre", I have a deja vu feeling. Why would you like not to use this word ? Is there any controversy about whether this was massacre or not ? I am against whitewashing history, regardless of whether Russian, Polish or Ukrainian. The historians may differ about the number of victims but there is no dispute about the name of the event and there is abundance of sources available about Volhynia Slaughter or Massacre. --Lysytalk 18:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I am not against the using of the word massacre, in the articles if this is referenced, like here, and I made it clear above. I am against using this word in the article titles. Ternopil was not only outside Volhynia voivodship but it was not part of historic Volhynia. In Austria-Hungary, it was part of administrative Galicia AFAIK. What's wrong with the title I suggested? It is a descriptive title, I take it, but it is exact, neutral and descriptive titles are OK to have. I would not object to the usage of the m-word inside the article in any way. --Irpen 19:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think your're not reading my questions. Let me rephrase them then: why would you think Ternopil needed to be inside Volhynia ? Does the image show Ternopil ? No, it shows the victims in Łobozowa. If you check e.g. uk:Волинь, you'll see that parts of Ternopil oblast fell in Volhynia. But that's not the point. The purpose of the picture is to illustrate the phenomenon and it does it very good. As for the "massacre" word, again, why do you object using the word in article's title. Is there any controversy about this ? --Lysytalk 20:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of the pic and the article is to illustrate the phenomenon... What phenomenon? Was it restricted exlusively to Volhynia? In not, the title is impreside at best and misleading at worst, even if Lobozova was a part of historic Volhynia.
The controversy of using the strong words in the titles is one and the same. It is more inflammatory than the usage in the text, where the usage can be referenced to specific sources. Descriptive titles are neutral and exact. Also, they don't prejudge the issues that are resolved in the articles. --Irpen 20:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why should we be using weasel word in the title if the established name for the events was "slaughter" or "massacre" ? Massacre is a perfectly valid name and there are many articles about other massacres: Tlatelolco massacre, Nanking Massacre, Malmedy massacre, Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, Montreal Massacre, or Qibya massacre to name just a few. Again, these things happened, every serious source confirms this, and there's no need to attempt to whitewash history. --Lysytalk 21:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget to rename the Battle of Kiev to Liberation of Kiev too, Lysy. This is pretty established name and plenty of sources say so. I thought it justifies to use it in the articles but never pushed it into the titles. What is exactly is the weasel word in the title I suggest? --Irpen 21:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wrong comparison. In the case of Kiev there are two sides: the Soviets calling it liberation and the rest of the world focusing mostly on the military aspect. In here we have the entire world calling it as it is called versus... err... Irpen..? //Halibutt 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
In case of Kiev an entire world, including the west in the military literature calls it liberation as shown repeatedly by the multitude of source. The word is disputed by the few adherents of the fringe POV and those who read nothing on the topic at all but the summaries of those same POV-pushers.
Let me ask, again, what's weasel in "Anti-Polish events..." title I suggest provided we still use the m-word in the text? --Irpen 22:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The picture does not have authentic source and seemingly fabricated. In any case, it is not ethicaly admissible to expose somebody's personal suffering to open public opinion. --Ans-mo 14:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There are several evident reasons, for which such picture can not be displayed here. First, it shows personal suffering of innocent children to the public view. Second, the picture is not provided with authentic, identified and proved source, there are no names of photographer and no names of the victims. The connection of this picture to actions of UPA is not documentarily proved. Third, there are signs of fabrication on that picture (line of "barbed wire" seems to be added lately to the picture and doesnot have any connection with bodies of the victims, as some experts say). Fourth, it fosters feeling of hatred from one side in two sided armed conflict, when two peoples were made antagonists by Soviet and German empires and regretful cases were indicated from each side. Both Ukraine and Poland have already made significant steps toward reconciliation (see some links below). Any of the above mentioned reasons is enough for not placing such photo in this article. Ans-mo 07:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it is fabricated it should go. If it's true it should stay to illustrate the issue. Certainly horrific, but if true, it should not be hidden. I think this discussion belongs rather here. --Lysytalk 09:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You dont have any firm proof that this picture is true. For posting such picture you must be sure on 100% about the source, author, names of the victims and photographer. You must also have proof that, this crime was made by UPA (during the described period, Volyn had german fascists, communist partisans, Army Krajowa and UPA on its territory. You can not present any documentary evidence. If this picture is fabricated or is not connected with UPA actions, it should remain the problem of your conscience. Ans-mo 09:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- The purpose of the picture is to illustrate the article. The reason for that is to show that the events in Volhynia were very brutal and to visually explain why they are still very difficult for many Poles. The purpose of this is not to blame UPA, and I have already opposed against inclusion in the Ukrainian Insurgent Army article. Since you are inventing a number a reasons to remove the picture from this article, it's obvious that it really bothers you. Maybe you could explain why would you prefer not to see it here and then we could come to some more reasonable conclusion ? Do you believe that the events were not that brutal at all ? --Lysytalk 20:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry just to say that illustrating an article with an image which is not connected to the article is disinformation (or propaganda)! What about illustrating Majdanek camp with Auschwitz pictures ... What abour presenting jewish casualties for tsigan genocide ... and so on What about presenting pictures of the first Iraq war to illustrate the second one ...
- This is explained already in the beginning of the discussion above. Please take your time to read it first. Thanks. --Lysytalk 12:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with this picture in this article, as long as the caption does not blame UPA for this crime (which it does not), because the criminals are not known. Faustian
I'm sorry to say that I'm not at all convince about what is say : Ternopil is VERY far from what is known as Vohlynia, and there is ABSOLUT no proof that this murder shown on this pic is linked with the Volhynia tragedy ... And the place of the picture does not seem to be very clear Łobozowa or Kobzowa (and do you really know where this village is ?)
- The purpose of this picture is to better illustrate how brutal the events were then. We do no know and it does not matter who the murderers were in this particular case. Thousands of civilians were butchered and these children were among the victims. As to Volhynia, I think you do not understand two things. First, historically Volhynia was much, much larger than Volyn Oblast today. Secondly, the "massacres in Volhynia" is just a name that refers to the events that took place in a larger area. Would you like separate articles for "massacres in Volyn oblast", "massacres in Zhytomyr oblast", "massacres in Ternopil oblast" and so on ? --Lysytalk 21:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I totaly disagree with the use of a picture in the aim of illustrate an article if this picture is not RELATED to this article : DOING THIS IS JUST PROPAGANDA ! There are other picture, which are correctly sourced which could be used, but not this one which is not sourced correctly(three supposed authors, two villages not really well defined (always followed by the sign "?"), so NOT USABLE. It true that many books written in Poland have used this picture, even saying ,that THIS REALLY HAS BEEN MADE IN VOLHYNIA MASSACRE, but when books were publish abroad there was a dispute, and someon found that the picture was first taken somewhere in Ternopil region, which is far from being Volhyni, or Pollysia, or Khelm region, were the massacre were done. Then some have made hypothesis that this children were gypsies and not polish children, so nconnected at all to that subject ... USING THIS PICTURE IS JUST DOING PROPAGANDA, which is not the aim of Wikipedia, as far as I know. Also using this picture here, lets think that this murder was commited by UPA member, which is far from being prooved... Could you (or anyone else) please tell me where is this village in Ukraine?
The only article where this picture could be used is an article about murder/massacre in Ukraine during WWII concerning Ukrainian, Polish, Gipsies, Jewish people ...
- I have no idea where this village is. All I know is that:
- The massacre in Volhynia happened in Tarnopol Voivodeship as well;
- Contrary to what you say, historic Volhynia included the areas of Tarnopol Voivodeship;
- A number of sources present this picture as an illustration of the victims of Volhynia massacre.
- Now, are there any sources that dispute this ? Or is your opinion only the result of your personal research ? --Lysytalk 19:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you precise the village where it happened in Ternopil Voivodship? I am not aware about similar fact in that voivodship ... Ternopil voivodship HAS NEVER BEEN INCLUDED TOTALLY IN VOHLYNIA VOIVODSHIP Just the northern part of Ternopil Voivodship was once included in Volhynia (an line from Pochaiv to Liubar). Only polish sources present this picture as victims of Volhynia massacre. and NOBODY could really source this picture. So I don't understand why put REAL picture of the massacre instead of this one....
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys8b.JPG or http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG Best regards
- All right. I have replaced the picture as you suggested but I still think the previous image was a better illustration for this particular article. Even if more graphic. --Lysytalk 09:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's take a photo from Polish version of this article - children nailed to the tree. I think it would be more "illustrative" about the real suffer.... Merewyn 13:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The Polish wiki page devoted to UPA relies on, to put it charitably, nonscientific sources of little value such as the works of Wiktor Poliszczuk and are hardly a model for this page, which is objective and of much higher quality. Faustian 14:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- Aha, photo's not objective .... and those children was nailed to the tree for fun by the UFO from Mars? Merewyn 09:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- If you reread what I wrote you would see that I was speaking about the article on Polish wiki, not the picture specifically.Faustian 03:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- Why I mentionned this photo of children nailed to the tree? Because a monument is planned in Warsaw to commemorate the victims of Volhynia massacres and the project is based on this picture - http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3948595.html (news is in Polish, just take a look at photos) Merewyn 09:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- The atrocity depicted in the picture might not have happened in Volyn (a caption states it was in Tarnopol region) and as someone suggested the victims may have been gypsies. As long as the picture did indeed include Poles and did inded occur in Volyn, I have no problem with that that picture being placed in this article. But those facts are being questioned, above... Faustian 03:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Rzeczpospolita new article is a good proof the image of the children is NOT related to this article. That said it may be notable to create an article on it (and/or the monument), and how the misconception arose.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Tadeusz Piotrowski?
The author is a sociologist, not a historian. When presenting such shocking information it seems that we ought to be extra careful about the source and limit ourselves to historians, encyclopedia, or such rather than self-published non-historians such as Poliszczuk or journalists. Piotrowski is less dubious than Wiktor Poliszczuk (whose claims I have removed from this article) but still, he is a professor of sociology rather than of history. There are many historians doing work on this subject (such as Torzecki or Rafal Wnuk of the Institute of National Remembrance ), why not use their information?Faustian 19:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- He is a notable English scholar; that his department is sociology doesn't prevent him from contributing valuable material to other social sciences. Many sociologists contribute to the area of history, studying sociological phenomena.
- Here are some reliable (western academic) reviews of his book: [2], [3]. PS. Unlike Wnuk or Torzecki, Piotrowski's work is in English, which makes it more accessible. PPS. That said, I see no reason for inclusion of this paragraph; I don't think such details serve any purpose on encyclopedia. Piotrowski provides much useful information on this sad event, but this paragraph is not one of them.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- OK, this paragraph perhaps was not encyclopedic, but otherwise I think we should use Piotrowski's work. What do other editors think? Tymek 02:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, in which case his contributions should be limited to sociological data (peoples' attitudes, sociodemographic variables, etc.) rather than historical events. Sociology and history overlap somewhat but they are different fields and when wading into the area of historical events Piotowski is at best a knowledgable amateur, albeit one with a good grasp of a related but different field. Faustian 13:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I still believe that his work is a good source for the article. Perhaps you should raise it at WP:RSN. Which specific claims of Piotrowski do you dispute at present?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 14:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The first review you posted [4] stated, "most of the chapters are chock full of facts, tables, and long excerpts from other works and personal narratives. " A historian is trained to sort out the sources of historical information in order to determine which might be more or less credible, etc. A sociologist might not be. I don't know which of Piotrowski's statements are realistic and which are not. I do not suggest that he is dishonest or incompetant. I do not put him in the category of a propogandist such as Poliszczuk or the Siemaszkos. But in this case he is working in a field that is not his (even if there are some overlaps). When it comes to sensitive or possibly inflammatory information such that involving these tragic events, it is important to be extra careful to choose the best sources. To make an analogy, he is like a chemist writing a book on biology, on a theme he is personally interested in. Let's stick with biologists or perhaps elements of that chemist's biology book that deal excusively with chemistry. Let's limit citations from Piotrowski to those involving the sociodemographic aspects of the population groups involved, and such elements of the massacres rather than historical events.Faustian 15:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's an interesting argument. But are there any specific quotes / facts from his source we are discussing? On average, I'd treat him as an academic expert. Do note that the propagandists you note are in theory 'professional historians' - so we should not treat 'historian' as better than 'sociologist' by default.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The first review you posted [4] stated, "most of the chapters are chock full of facts, tables, and long excerpts from other works and personal narratives. " A historian is trained to sort out the sources of historical information in order to determine which might be more or less credible, etc. A sociologist might not be. I don't know which of Piotrowski's statements are realistic and which are not. I do not suggest that he is dishonest or incompetant. I do not put him in the category of a propogandist such as Poliszczuk or the Siemaszkos. But in this case he is working in a field that is not his (even if there are some overlaps). When it comes to sensitive or possibly inflammatory information such that involving these tragic events, it is important to be extra careful to choose the best sources. To make an analogy, he is like a chemist writing a book on biology, on a theme he is personally interested in. Let's stick with biologists or perhaps elements of that chemist's biology book that deal excusively with chemistry. Let's limit citations from Piotrowski to those involving the sociodemographic aspects of the population groups involved, and such elements of the massacres rather than historical events.Faustian 15:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- There have been some very pertinent books and studies done recnetly in Ukraine primarilly by Serhiychuk at Kyiv University. I have a couple of his books and remember reading one about this particular topic. I will try to borrow the book and go throught the information. I have Serhiychuk's book on the Vistula Action and also his book on the resettlement of Poles in Ukraine, but the book specifically dealing with Volyn I don't have.
- It may be of value to include a section on the deportation of Poles from Ukraine in 1944, as this graeatly influences the population numbers. I also notice that the link to the children with the barbed wire hasn't been removed from the article despite having been shown by Polish researchers to have not been the actof UPA but the children of a Gypsy who had murdered her own children in 1926. It may be of value to document such exagerations and incorrect information so that they do not exacerbate and are not promulgated. Bandurist 15:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Bandurist, your suggestions are good, but I think both the question of 2 UPA's and deportations of Poles are good, but we should concentrate on the massacres, as the article is about them. Same with population of Volhynia - information is necessary, but let us not go into particulars, as this is not about demographics. And this sentence "Despite the Russian population being only 3%, Orthodox churches were forced to hold services in Russian rather than in Ukrainian." I do not think it has anything to do with Polish government's oppression of Ukrainians, it would make no sense for Warsaw to insist on Russian language (unless you have some sources). As for photo - remove the link, I have read that these kids are Gypsies. Tymek 17:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with what you say, but some info is needed. When dealing with a conflict it is easy to point the finger and say - he did it. Often what comes before the act is a raising of termpers by both sides until it erupts in something unthinkable. Regarding the Russianess of the Orthodox church in Volhyn, this was a continuation of Roman Dmowski's Russocentric thinking and leanings. Bandurist 20:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I've looked through Piotrowski's book online and am not impressed. For example, Piotrowski quotes at length from Sol Littman (biography here: [5] who is not a reliable source: [6] [7]. The newspaper articles were put on the internet by a disgustingly anti-semitic organization, but they are nevertheless real, and prove Littman's dishonesty. In his book on the Ukrainian SS, Littman states on page 47, "the Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine was benign" and described "thousands" (rather than 100,000s) of deportees. Piotrowski's book also uses as a source the work of Edward Prus, a Polish nationalist whose work has been dismissed by Rafał Wnuk of the Polish Institute of National Remembrance and Timothy Snyder. See here: [8] where Wnuk writes "works that are of no scientific value. Their authors play freely with historical facts. They appeal mostly to the reader's emotions. Their use of sources and researchers' findings does not contribute to historical discoveries. Instead it is used to make their "true" version of events credible. It is often only politically involved publicism, not historical work. Edward Prus, Aleksander Korman, and Jacek E. Wilczur are followers of this trend. These are the kinds of works that sociologist Piotrowski uses when he writes about historical events. A historian might judge his sources better than does sociologist Piotrowski; perhaps we should stick to what historians say.Faustian (talk) 04:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian population of Volyn
M. Siwicki (Zapysky siroho Volyniaka - Lviv 1996 - p.39) states that the census of 1931 was falsified. The Polish census stated that of the 2,085,574 people living in Volhyn only 1,428,341 (68.9%) were Ukrainian.
Siwicki further states Hernyk Josewski (Wspomnienia "Zeszyty historyczne' Paryz, 1982 nr 60 s. 72) stated that the true population was made up of Ukrainains 80%. Poles 16%. Significant numbers of Jews lived in the cities. There were some Russians and Czechs and Germans.
Education was in a terrible state. Basically the reverse of the population. In the middle schools 344 (14%) Ukrainians to 2599 Poles. Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to get into Tertiary studies only 3 were accepted in 1938/9. (Siwicki p.40)
The 1931 census gives 3,762,500 Orthodox christians in Vohlyn - 69% Ukrainian, 29 % Belorusan, 2-3% Russian, Czechs and Poles.
In 1926 at a conference regarding the Ukrainian problem the Polish minister of religion and education Antoni Sujkowski stated that that Volyn was 80% Ukrainian. (Siwicki p.63) In 1926 the Polish Policy called the "Volyn program" was announced by Josewski for the state assimilation of Volyn. The "Sokalski" administrative border was set up to stop the dissemination of literature from the more educated Ukrainians in Halychyna to Volyn.
Skorowidz miejscowosc Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej wedlug spisu z 30.IX.1921 r. wojewodstwo Wolynskie gives for the whole of Volyn: Roman Catholics - 1,666,512 Orthodox - 1,066,842 Poles - 240,922 Rusyns - 983,596
Siwicki (p 182) questions where 74, 410 Poles had appeared who were not Roman Catholic. From the statistics published Siwicki states that the accuracy of the 1931 census is in doubt.
Serhiychuk (Deportatsiya Poliakiv z Ukrainy Kyiv, 1999) gives population make up according to the Russian census for 1914 as: 1. Kovel area - P(oles) 4.59%, R(ussian) 3.83%, Ukr. 78.49%, Germ 0.90%, Jews 11.48%, other 5.79% 2. Kremenetz P=3%, R=3.37%, Uk=82.72, Jews=12.23, other 0.68% 3. Lutsk - P=9.7%, R=5.19%, Uk-59.96%, G-12%, Jews=14.13% other 2.02 4.Ostroh - P=6.61%, R=3.48%, Ukr 76.68%, Ger=8.94%, Jews=10.80. Other 1.94% 5. Rivne - P=9.19%, R=3.48%, Ukr=72/09%, Ger=8.94%, Jews 15.97% other 1.94% 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - P=9.19%, R. 3.48%, Ukr 72.09%, Ger 8.94%, jews 15.97, other 1.94 7. Dubno - P=6.51%, R=4.46%, Ukr 68.22, Ger 3.54, Jews 11.48, other 5.79%
altogether: 1. Kovel area - 4,100 Poles 2. Kremenetz - 9800 Poles 3. Lutsk - 13,300 Poles 4. Ostroh - 15,500 Poles 5. Rivne - 19,600 Poles 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - 22,000 Poles 7. Dubno - 9,900
Altogether 76,500 Poles in Volhyn (Serhiychuk p 4.)
Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 01:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Reconciliation
Reconciliation is a difficult topic to address, mainly because UPA (UIA) did not act on the orders of any Ukrainian government, and as a military formation has not been recognized by the current Ukrainain government. As a result officially there is nothing to apologise for as the current government of Ukraine has nothing directly to do with the actions. It is obviously sorry that such an act happened, but it was not responsible in any way. This should by all fairness be somehow mentioned in that section.
Keep in mind that there were 2 UPA's. The first was the Vohlynian organized by Taras Bulba-Borovetz and on the other side of the Sokalski border the Galician UPA which formed later and was under Bandera banner. Tey functioned and worked differently. Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously, current Ukrainian govt has nothing to do with the massacres, like current Polish government has nothing to do with Action Vistula, just like German govt has nothing to do with Nazi crimes. Yet they apologized, same with Gorbachow apologizing for Katyn. Tymek 17:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Your point I understand and support, however there is a slight difference. Action Vistula was a government action by the then Polish government, The Nazi war crimes were a government action by the then German government. The Katyn Massacre was a government action by the Soviet Communist government (which Gorbachov represented). These governments may have been totalitarian, however someone voted them in, (they didn't come into being with no support period) and the actions represent the direction and mentality of the then government. In this case, the UIA and the persons and groups responsible for these actions were not government sponsored organizations.
If you review for example the citizenship of the victims and the proponents you have another view. The Visla action was done by Poles to other Polish citizens of a different ethnicity. The Nazi crimes were done by a people agains other ethnicities and religions. The Katyn massacres were done to "allies", ie not to their own citizens, but to foreign soldiers and disarmed ones. All these actions were done from a situation of power against people with no course of defence. The Volhyn tragedy was done by Polish citizens (in this case of Ukrainian ethnicity) against Polish citizens (of Polish ethnicity) as a direct result and consequence of the Polish government policies implemented after 1926. Please excuse me if I am trying to split hairs here, but to me there is a significant difference.Bandurist 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- You are right, but how to solve this problem in the article? Perhaps you could write that Ukrainian govt does not feel responsible for the massacres (if it has been stated). Tymek 19:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't want to interfere with the article. As it stands I feel I may have made people unhappy, however it should be noed that The UPA in Vohlyn and the UPA which was created in Galicia were different and ultimately would up fighting themselves at one time. There is the matter of Taras Bulba-Borovetz who was in charge of the Vohlyn UPA who emigrated to Canada and lived in Winnipeg and published his memoirs there. There is Dontsov who in his articles encited action rather than discussion who became a professor at Montreal University. There are so many significant links that have not been investigated or even mentioned. Then you have the fact that both UPAs have not been recognised by the Yushchenko government although attempts have been made to do so. On the one hand you have an Army that fought for the liberation of Ukraine which was Ukrainian speaking and made up of Ukrainians yet it is mired in such things. The Red army and other armieas are also "not 100% clean" because anything and verythng happens in war, however their reputation is established. In this case people are still doing the research. Bandurist 20:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- You are right, but how to solve this problem in the article? Perhaps you could write that Ukrainian govt does not feel responsible for the massacres (if it has been stated). Tymek 19:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- After some clashes, UPA-Volyn was forcibly absorbed into the OUN-dominated UPA of Galicia in I believe early 1943.Faustian 02:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Incorrect quotation
On August 25, 1943, German occupational authorities ordered all Poles to leave villages and settlements and move to bigger towns. Yuryi Kirichuk wrote that the Germans were egging both sides on each other. Erich Koch once said: "We have to do everything possible so that a Pole, while meeting a Ukrainian, would be willing to kill him and conversely, a Ukrainian would be willing to kill a Pole". Also, Kirichuk quotes a German commissioner from Sarny who, when Poles complained about massacres, answered: "You want Sikorski, the Ukrainians want Bandura. Fight each other". [10].
I thing the quotation needs to be checked. A BAndura is a musical instrument. Maybe they want Bandera here? - However Bandera was virtually unknown in Volyn. Bulba-Borets was the leader there. Bandurist 19:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I misspelled it, instead of Bandera I wrote Bandura. Sometimes it is not easy, when you have two little kids jumping on your head. Tymek 22:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic
Even though this is an interesting subject, I think that too much attention was devoted to it in the article. This article is about Massacres, not about oppresion. Obviously, Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic should be mentioned, but not to such a large degree, together with state of the Orthodox Church in pre-1939 Poland, which has little to do with the subject. IMHO a separate article should be created, using information presented here and obviously linked with massacres. Therefore, I want to trim this section, and I am hoping that some Ukrainian editors will come up with an article about Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic. Waiting for opinions Tymek (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. A paragraph in a background section, rather than an entire section of its own, would be appropriate. The oppression of the Ukrainian minority is an important topic on this page as it provides a context for the massacres that followed. The fact that 100,000-300,000 colonists were settled there, schools were closed, churches closed, people were terrorized by youths, etc. should be noted. But this can certainly be trimmed down to a paragraph, and the more detailed information can serve as the basis for a seperate article (the topic certainly deserves its own article)Faustian (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- One day we will have a comprehensive minorities in Poland article. That said, I agree with you. Due weight, subarticles are good, and so on.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Contradiction ? 300.000 Poles settled in Volhyn ? Soviets identified only 115.000 in whole Kresy region
The article takes claim by Ukrainian historian that up to 300.000 Poles were settled in Volhyn alone. The Osadnik article writes that Soviets identified only 115.000 as osadnicy and they included even people who bought the land themselfs.--Molobo (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was going by Subtelny, who stated that according to Ukrainian historians 300,000 Poles settled in Volhynia and Galicia while according to Polish sources the number for both regions combined was 100,000. The article does not state in Volhynia alone.Faustian (talk) 14:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well those two regions are different, its not clear how much were in Volhyn and how much in Galicia, also there was settlement in Belarus region which is missed. Also Soviet sources give 115.000 Poles as settlers in the whole Kresy region. Seems a big contradiction to what Subtelny claims.--Molobo (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Subtelny doesn't claim anything, he only reports the two figures, 300,000 and 100,000, for both regions combined. If you have a source that includes the total for Volhynia specifically, then put it in. If you have a reference for the Soviet figure, by all means add it. More, and more specific, information is a good thing.Faustian (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Two hundred thousand Poles were settled in Western Ukraine according to Ярослав Грицак in his "History of Ukraine, 1772-1999: Birth of a New Nation". --Lysytalk 18:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Subtelny doesn't claim anything, he only reports the two figures, 300,000 and 100,000, for both regions combined. If you have a source that includes the total for Volhynia specifically, then put it in. If you have a reference for the Soviet figure, by all means add it. More, and more specific, information is a good thing.Faustian (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well those two regions are different, its not clear how much were in Volhyn and how much in Galicia, also there was settlement in Belarus region which is missed. Also Soviet sources give 115.000 Poles as settlers in the whole Kresy region. Seems a big contradiction to what Subtelny claims.--Molobo (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
first sentence
Not sure about this, but wouldn't
"The Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was a campaign of ethnic cleansing conducted in Volhynia"
or an "act of" sound better than what is currently there? Ostap 04:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am not a native speaker, but IMO an act would refer to a single incident, while in Volhynia there was a series of incidents, which lasted for several months. My hunch is that a campaign better reflects what happened then. Tymek (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually the history Volhyn doesn't inform about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland
Henryk Józewski As voivode of Wołyń, where Ukrainians formed the majority of the population, Józewski concentrated on improving relations between the Polish government and Poland's Ukrainian minority. He advocated a broad autonomy for Ukrainian self-governance, promoted Ukrainians to administrative posts, and sought to ensure their fair representation in the government. His administration included many former activists of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Józewski fostered Ukrainian and Polish-Ukrainian organizations. In education, he supported the teaching of the Ukrainian language and argued for the introduction of Ukrainian as the local official language. He declared that the Ukrainian national movement must choose between Poland and the Soviet Union. He opposed Soviet influences over Poland's Ukrainians and criticized certain Ukrainian organizations that he viewed as too Soviet-dependent or too extremist (e.g. Prosvita).''
This policy ended in 1938. But the fact of this period is missing from the overview and presents onesided account that doesn't include all data. --Molobo (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- Molobo, I will add the material "about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland" that brought about the OUN violence as soon as possible. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Lead
Molobo's lead is unacceptable. First, it calls the events "in Volhynia" and mentions Galicia in the very next sentence thus making it a logic contradiction.
Next, it is clear from the article that the violence was mutual. Finally, "ethnic cleansing" is a judgmental POV term. It can only be used in an attributed form in the main body and only if it clearly shown that this is an overwhelming mainstream view (like Shoah being genocide), it can be used in the lead. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- Can you elaborate on the Galicia issue?
- Violence was mutual - so was the violence during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, with Jewish fighters shooting at the German soldiers. Please consider the proportions.
- Ethnic cleansing is a term used in many scholarly publications; that said I support using an inline reference for it, there are plenty to chose from. As far as I am aware it represents indeed the overwhelming mainstream view, can you present refs to the contrary? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
On Galicia, the article correctly states that the violence took place in Galicia as well as in Volhynia. However, the first sentence in Molobo's version for some reason mentions Volhynia only
Warsaw Gherro comparison, Piotrus, brings up the Godwin's law. Jewish fighters took on Nazi soldiers. Polish fighters massacred Ukrainian villages. I hope you can see the difference. --Irpen 02:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- I retagged the article per no response. I hope there will be a discussion rather than another revert war. --Irpen 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
So, the article says (correctly) that the violence took place not just in Volhynia but also in Galicia. In fact, it was of a similar scale there. Thus, the first sentence definition (as well as the title) are simply misleading.
Second, the article correctly says that the violence was mutual and (Piotrus, please note) the AK violence was not limited to the fights with UPA fighters but also "fights" with Ukrainian women and children.
Next, I am totally taken aback by changing the section title to "more neutrally sounding" (as Piotrus claims) while disregarding how neutrally the article's title sounds. Since my edits are reverted with no explanation by familar editors who are taking turns, I tagged the article. Hopefully, some compromise could be found soon. --Irpen 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I generally agree with your points. With respect to the article title, the choice of the factually partially correct title involving Volyn seems to be driven by the fact that those events are collectively described as Volyn massacres or something like that in the Polish media (which is the media that most widely discusses those events). While massacre is a loaded word, there is a long list of wikipedia articles titled massacres when events are popularly referred to as such. I agree however that the ttile should reflect all victims. Perhaps a more nuetral title would be simply Volyn massacres rather than the current title; because the majority of victims were Polish civilians the body of the article would not change due to the change in title. Here's a link to a bbc article mentioning simply Volyn massacres: [9].
- Given the popularity of the term "Volyn massacre", it wouldn't be inappropriate to use it as the article title although it should be mentioned in the lead that despite the name, the events also occurred in Galicia.Faustian (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
New lead and title
I would like to suggestthe following
Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine during WWII
Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was an act of ethnic cleansing that took place in Western Ukraine from 1943 to 1944 primarily against the Polish population in Volhynia (Polish: Wołyń) and later spread to Galicia. In the years before, tensions between the Polish and Ukrainians escalated. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the German administration encouraged ethnic violence between the inhabitants on the territories it administered. As a result it is estimated that tens of thousands of civilians were murdered by various military groups. Most of the killings took place in summer and autumn of 1943. Although the Polish population was the primary target, Ukrainian and Jewish civilians were also killed in the cycle of violence that erupted. The numerical estimates vary widely and have become a subject of scholarly as well as political debate.
This I think covers all the bases and is sufficiently NPOV for an encyclopedic article.
Comments???
Bandurist (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand why your version omits the mention of Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the primary perpetrator of the killings? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Bandurist, Piotrus is right. There is no mention of who ethnically cleansed Volhynia of its Polish population and in this form the lead in unacceptable. I know your stance, you are Ukrainian, but please, this is going way too far. One might have the impression that Polish civilians were massacred by the Aliens. Tymek (talk) 00:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic cleansing
I would like to suggest that the article be re-titled to ethnic cleansing in Vohlynia as the escalation of inter-ethnic conflict was not just confined to Poles but also included Ukrainians, Jews, Roma, and Czech's. Bandurist (talk) 11:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- The ethnic cleansing was concentrated on Polish civilians, but the title doesn't reflect this in either current or your proposed version. If you can show that ethnic cleansing is more often used in literature then massacres, I would have no objections. WP:RM is advised.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe "Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine" This would cover both Vohlynia, Galicia and the various nationalities that suffered. Bandurist (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Is this title used in literature of the subject? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
How about Inter-ethnic violence in Western Ukraine, 1943-1944? --Irpen 20:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- And this is used by what publications, exactly? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ever heard of descriptive title that simply reflect the content? Because otherwise, "which publications exactly" use "Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946)"? --Irpen 22:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again, Volyn massacres seem most appropriate given what is said in the literature. This would encompass the massacre of Ukrainians by Poles. The real problem that massacres occurred in Galicia (thus rendering the title Volyn massacres technically incorrect) could immediately be dealt with in the lead, with a statement such as, "although these events are popularly referred to as the Volyn massacres, the killing of large numbers of civilians also occured in Galicia..."Faustian (talk) 22:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- User:Faustian's proposal is good. Ostap 22:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Please check our policies: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). Massacres of Poles in Volhynia seems much more common then other names. That said, I am not insisting on 'of Poles', as noted - Jews and Ukrainians (and individuals of mixed ethnicity) were also among the victims.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again, Volyn massacres seem most appropriate given what is said in the literature. This would encompass the massacre of Ukrainians by Poles. The real problem that massacres occurred in Galicia (thus rendering the title Volyn massacres technically incorrect) could immediately be dealt with in the lead, with a statement such as, "although these events are popularly referred to as the Volyn massacres, the killing of large numbers of civilians also occured in Galicia..."Faustian (talk) 22:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't get it. Are Galicia events marginal, unimportant, of a significantly lesser scale or what? Do you want a separate article for them? Why if so? Are they sufficiently unrelated? If not and if they are to be covered here, it just makes no sense to have the title that makes a misleading impression. Where they all "Polish citizens" by anyone's book. If the Ukrainians of former Eastern Poland are to be considered as much "Polish citizens" as the Poles even after Poland's demise, was not it a Massacre by Polish citizens of each other? I just don't understand why some love to use massacres in titles. --Irpen 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Forgive me for being sarcastic, but why not change Holocaust into Ethnic cleansing in Europe? Guys, let us be serious, we all know what happened in Volhynia back then and who was the victim. Changing history is pointless, I am not saying that the Poles always treated the Ukrainians in proper way, but here we face indescribable event in which Ukrainian nationalists massacred thousands of civilians, kids and women alike. I am insisting on Poles in the title, as for massacres perpetrated by Poles on Ukrainians, there should be another article written. We do not put German and Soviet atrocities on each other in the same bag. Tymek (talk) 04:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't get it. Are Galicia events marginal, unimportant, of a significantly lesser scale or what? Do you want a separate article for them? Why if so? Are they sufficiently unrelated? If not and if they are to be covered here, it just makes no sense to have the title that makes a misleading impression. Where they all "Polish citizens" by anyone's book. If the Ukrainians of former Eastern Poland are to be considered as much "Polish citizens" as the Poles even after Poland's demise, was not it a Massacre by Polish citizens of each other? I just don't understand why some love to use massacres in titles. --Irpen 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- While obviously Poles were the main victims (by 4:1 or 5:1) and the article should reflect that, the massacres of Poles and Ukrainians are linked and fed off one another. The murder of Polish and Ukrainian civilians were discussed together in this excellent article: [10]. Putting Poles in the title would be appropriate if the article only dealth with Poles. However, since some Ukrainians were also massacred by Ukrainian nationalists, and Ukrainians were massacred by Poles, in events that occurred at about the same time and were linked, creating different articles would seem to be artificial or inapropriate IMO.Faustian (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm slowly reading through the materials on the subject. In many ways it reminds me of a dispute between two children on a playground.
- T) Who started it -
- 1) He did because of this. -
- 2) But he did that and that. -
- 1) But he did this before,
- 2) But he did that before that.
This particular conflict is a typical continuing spiral of conflict escalation. The outcome was tragic. Questions remain - from where did the conflict start, and from where should the article start. Obviously, a massacre of such proportions did not happen overnight for no reason.
What lessons can be gained from the event? Why was such an event allowed to happen?
Sure, you can support the title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia", but it does not adequately describe the event? The title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia" maybe the accepted title in the Polish version of Wikipedia, but I do not believe that it adequately describes the events and is all inclusive for the English version, which should have a NPOV and be all inclusive.
1) The title does not reflect the fact that this sort of ethnic cleansing of Ethnic Poles also encompased Galicia, Kholmshchyna, Pidliashshia. 2) The title does not include the other ethnic groups who were affected by the events, some of whom were percentage wise more affected than the Poles. In particular the Jewish population, which as larger than the Polish population in the cities of Western Ukraine were affected even more than the Poles. 3) I also feel that the current title is being aggressively adhered to in order to continue a particular POV, but that is just an opinion. Bandurist (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Basically, what I see is that some editors want to change the whole structure of the article, mixing different events and putting them in the same bag. This article deals specifically about sufferings of Poles in Volhynia, and franky speaking, I do not see why it should include other subjects. Jews - sure, a mention is good, but it should be covered by the Holocaust. Czechs - well, I saw somewhere that 300 of them died, a mention is desired, but changing of the title? This is an exaggeration. Ukrainians and their sufferings - I have no objection to creating a separate article, or expansion of Operation Wisla. Nobody writes or suggests a joint article about sufferings of civilian population of Germany and civilian population of Soviet Union. Keep it as it is, there is a link to Oppression of Ukrainians in the 2nd Polish Republic, which should also include terrorist tactics of Ukrainian groups (somewhow it doesn't) I do not see the need for such a drastic change and there is no need to create a mega-article, which would deal with all different subjects. Tymek (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article on The Holocaust also includes not only Jews but also Poles, other Slavs, gypsies, etc. If four villages of Poles were massacred and at about the same time one Ukrainian village was, why should all of these events be split into separate articles?Faustian (talk) 18:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't support a split now, but I am sure at some point we may need a separate subarticle dealing with suffering of only Ukrainian population (just as we have WWII articles about suffering of only Poles, or only Jews, for example).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article on The Holocaust also includes not only Jews but also Poles, other Slavs, gypsies, etc. If four villages of Poles were massacred and at about the same time one Ukrainian village was, why should all of these events be split into separate articles?Faustian (talk) 18:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- I recall a political cartoon about the conflict in former Yugoslavia, with "I am killing you because your grandfather killed my grandmother...". As Bandurist say, everybody was guilty. We should be thankful this is behind us - and that we can discuss this calmly and in good faith (btw, I will say that my opinion of Ukrainians and Ukrainian editors is constantly rising, due to my good interactions and experiences with them on Wiki :). As I said before, I would not object to removing 'of Poles'; however unless it can be shown that a significant amount of killings took place outside Volhynia, I'd support keeping this name, as it is the one more commonly used to identify this event (consider, for example, a random massacre in village x: some killings might have taken place outside it, but we don't speak 'massacre in village x and the valley behind it'; same for battles and such). Heck, Napoleon's invasion of Russia could be described as "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, Russian partitioned Poland, Russian controlled Cossack territories and whatsnot" - but we are not going to be renaming it, are we? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand where you are coming from, however I cannot agree with you. I feel the current title is somewhat inflamatory, in particularly when considering some members of our reading community. By changing the title, we will not only avoid inflamatory edit wars in the future but in my opinion more accurately depict the various sides of this tragedy. Keep in mind that such topics have been used by various scholars to actually escalate anatagonisms which still exist and are alove out there in the community.
Regarding your comments re Ukrainian editors I would like to recipricate. It is much more pleasurable to discuss differences than to have stuff shoved down your throat, which seems to be happening with some topics dealing with Russian Ukrainian relations. I prefer the more "European" approach.
The Serhiychuk book is very intersting. He has reproduced a large number of previously secret documents, in particular (from what I am currently reading, documents pertaining to the organised wholesale deportation of Poles from Volhynia signed by Krushchev (with others). After I have had time to chew on the materials I will post them for your perousal.
Re Napoleon's invasion of Russia and "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, - I don't think that such topics are as loaded as topics using terms like massacre or genocide. Personally I find such terms and their implications quite distasteful.
Having said that. It is your article. All I want to do is have you consider another title for the reasons I listed above. Bandurist (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Bandurist, with all due respect, I really do not think that this title is inflammatory. These massacres are an established fact, as well as victims of them. I am repeating myself again - the article presents the fate of Poles in that land, there is no need to split it, divide it or rename. It was not a clash of two armies, it was an act of ethnic cleansing of medieval character. I am glad that those times are over, and as a fan of soccer, I am looking forward to Polish-Ukrainian Euro 2012, but we must not change history. There is an article about a different massacre, this time commited by the Poles, and its title should also remain unchanged. Tymek (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Tymek, it's fine to have separate village massacre articles. But here we are talking about mutual interethnic violence when UPA burned Polish villages and AK burned the Ukrainian ones. This is not about separate villages but about an interethnic conflict where Ukrainians, admittedly, had for a short period an upper hand. Splitting this into "Ukrainian Massacre of Poles" and the "Polish massacre of Ukrainians" is POV forking in its most textbook form. The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.) --Irpen 03:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- Irpen, in Volhynia the Ukrainians had the advantage all the time. Poles took revenge elsewhere, like in southern part of Lublin Voivodeship, but the article does not cover that area. In Volhynia it was not mutual, one side attacked and murdered another. Tymek (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. For example when researching Zamość Uprising I also found information about the German plan to resettle some Ukrainians in the region; the plan failed as the Polish resistance took control of the region and the Germans were forced to protect Ukrainian colonists as much as their own German ones.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Irpen: "The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.)" - true, but there is one more difference: the murders done by Ukrainians were largely a result of a organised, planned action of ethnic cleansing and that fact alone means that there should be a separate article about that particular action. VivecPL (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- Except that no documentation exists of plans to actually murder large number of Poles.Faustian (talk) 21:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- So far no documents have been found, but seriously, I do not believe that this campaign was not pre-organized. I cannot imagine those illiterate peasants from Volhynia, living in scattered villages in the woods and swamps, to prepare everything by themselves from scratch, especially the events of July 11, 1943, which were coordinated and covered a large area with no roads and no railroads. We know that peasants of Volhynia considered themselves Russian rather than Ukrainian well into the XX century. My opinion is that the idea of massacres was brought to them by the well-educated, nationalist-minded activists from Eastern Galicia and they joined it, perhaps not because they followed mad, bloody policies of Ukrainian organizations from Galicia (getting rid of all Poles), but because they saw it as an opportunity to loot some goods. I am emphasizing - this is only my opinion. Tymek (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Faustian: there is some documentation, which does prove that OUN/UPA did order ethnic cleansing and some form of mass murder of civilian population, although it does not prove that they've ordered genocide.
From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:
Fragment 1:
"In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "
Fragment 2:
"The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' "
In the light of these two fragments, especially the second one, it's obvious that at least some kind of ethnic cleansing and mass murder of civilians was premeditated - though the second fragment does indirectly suggest that women,children and old men were to be spared, murdering all males aged 16-60 is still mass murder of civilians. VivecPL (talk) 04:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- I may be wrong here - I don't have time to check now - but the second quote may have come from a "confession" told under NKVD interogation by a captured UPA-North fighter who worked directly under Klym Savur (the head of UPA-North). I have read a confession with similar theme in a massive on-line publication by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences; the work notes the fact that the information was obtained through torture (implying he may have said what his torturers/interogators wanted to hear). Piotrowski described the same confession but completely ommitted the facts of how it was obtained, merely stating what was said as if it were the truth, which seems rather misleading of Piotrowski. There is no doubt that UPA ordered the forced removal of Poles from Volynian territory; this is well documented. But despite many UPA documents having been found, including secret ones, documents describing killing of political enemies, "traitors", communists, etc. no document exists showing orders to kill Polish civilians
(although documents include confessions by UPA fighters that they have killed Polish civilians). The mass scale of the massacres means that UPA must have participated, there's just no evidence that this was a policy ordered from the top.Faustian (talk) 04:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree that ethnic cleansing is better. A massacre is an event, while ethnic cleansing is a campaign. The attacks on other ethnic groups was limited (by their low numbers), while the goal of these organized attacks was to rid the area of Poles, many of whom were recently arrivals (settlers and worker communities) seen by Ukrainian nationalists as a alien element. Framing the killing of Ukrainians by Poles as a response is fair (whether or not the response itself was fair), meaning that the article could be entitled "Ethnic cleansing of Volhynia in the 1940s". You do not have to mention the word "Pole" in the title. It is clear from the text.Tanessi (talk) 12:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Another idea is "Ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia". This follows the convention in many other Wikipedia articles. Also, I cut out part of the Norman Davies quote that cited as many as 500,000 deaths. This must have been taken out of context because there were not even this many Poles in Vohynia. Snyder gives 1939 Polish pop. of Volhynia as 400,000, but that by 1943, there were only 200,000 living there. Davis and others are cited in the table with figures up to 100,000. Readers will be confused if we keep the 500,000 figure. Tanessi (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Nice sources
Thanks Faustian for catching it. Piotrus insists on using sources that say (from Faustian's talk):
- "...Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutting off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16"
Well, what can I say. By the author's rating the degree of evilness increases from Germans to Soviets and further to Ukrainians. Nice source indeed. And it is restored again. What scholars are we to see next? --Irpen 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Good question. What Ukrainian scholars are we citing? PS. Could you translate and comment on this image? I wonder if it should be added to the reconciliation section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Piotrus, the source quote above is not Ukrainian. It is Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski. So, you push scholars who say the horrific stuff above and invoke the message from the moder Ukrainian National-Socialists as what? Did anyone added them as sources? --Irpen 23:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Transtating per your request:
- Poland Repent! Volhynia remembers the burned out villages. During the occupation of Volhynia by Poles more than 100,000 Ukrainians were murdered. Signed by "Volhynian regional organization of the Social-National Party of Ukraine (address), Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host."
Does not look reconciliatory to me. --Irpen 22:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly. Both Polish and Ukrainians have their extremists, thus I ask again - can more sources be presented about the reliability of the Ukrainian POV? Who are the reliable Ukrainian scholars studying this issue, and who are the less reliable ones? For the record, I support creating a historiography section, where we should note that authors such as Poliszczuk, Prus or Siemszko's are of lower reliabity than Wnuk, Motyka or Torzecki. But we should also not equal of them; for example it appears that works by Siemaszko's are considered better than those of Poliszczuk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Except that no one is citing "the Social-National Party of Ukrainian, Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host".Faustian (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- While some cite "Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski". --Irpen 23:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- As soon as you present academic criticism of such sources, we can consider removing them from this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's a high burden of proof - Szawlowski may not get the attention of say a Poliszczuk. I wonder if any academics have criticized the Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host. If not, should we include that organization's writings as a source? How about this - before including info from a source that states that from better to worse were Germans, Soviets, and Ukrainians, how about some academic sources that state that the source (such as Szawlowski) is okay.Faustian (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about we use common sense? Ostap 23:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- With regards to Siemaszko's, I've given you refs to reviews on talk. I have no idea who Szawlowski is? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's a high burden of proof - Szawlowski may not get the attention of say a Poliszczuk. I wonder if any academics have criticized the Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host. If not, should we include that organization's writings as a source? How about this - before including info from a source that states that from better to worse were Germans, Soviets, and Ukrainians, how about some academic sources that state that the source (such as Szawlowski) is okay.Faustian (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- As soon as you present academic criticism of such sources, we can consider removing them from this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- While some cite "Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski". --Irpen 23:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Except that no one is citing "the Social-National Party of Ukrainian, Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host".Faustian (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The most recent scholarly materials that I know of are primarily Volodymyr Serhiychuk's books from Kyiv. I recently got a copy of "Поляки на Волині у роки другої світової війни" published by the Kyiv state University in 2003. He has another interesting book - about the Deportation of Poles from Ukraine which was published in 1999 which I used for an article not long ago about Polish deportations. I'm gradually working my way through the book. Another interesting book is Mykola Siwicki's book Записки сірого Волиняка published in Lviv in 1996 which is also very interestingBandurist (talk) 02:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you. We should probably cite those works in the article, at least in the further reading section. It is currently dominated by Polish sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Who is responsible for the massacres?
There is a prevalent notion in Poland that the UPA is responsible for the slaughter of Poles in Volhynia. Poles do not know about different fractions within the UPA as well as different Ukrainian paramilitary organizations, existing then. Perhaps Ukrainian editors would be able to clear this out here on talk. Norman Davies leaves no doubt and states clearly that it was the UPA. Tymek (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- As seen on the UPA article, there were gangs of armed bandits (Ukrainian and Polish - presumably the Ukrainian ones were the ones who would have killed Polish civilians) avoiding military service who didn't belong to UPA or AK who looted or robbed or killed people. Both UPA and AK sometimes used deadly force against these bandits. Also, Ukrainian peasants who weren't members of UPA were documented killing Polish civilians.Faustian (talk) 17:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- The question, then is: was UPA the major driving force behind such actions? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- Serhiychuk also mentions and publishes documents where various non-military groups killed Poles i Vohlynia. In the documents that I have so far seen there has been no evidence that the UPA (Bandera faction) which took over in Volhynia had blatantly ordered any ethnic cleansing operations, although I have come across documents regarding punitive actions. Bandurist (talk) 23:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:
- Fragment 1:
- "In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "
- Fragment 2:
- "The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' " VivecPL (talk) 19:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
What were the original source documents these excerpts were taken from? Bandurist (talk) 22:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
1) If I understand it correctly, the Wikipedia's "NOR" policy means that we do not have to determine what documents were used by a historian in order to have the historian's work taken in account.
2) Nevertheless, I checked the book again and found out that Grunberg&Sprengel took it from works of Władysław Filar, without providing where Filar took that from.
3) Incidentally, I've found a website where some fragments from Filar's works are posted, complete with footnotes:
http://www.lwow.com.pl/semper/wolyn.html
The fragment #1 I've posted is not there, but we have section of text containing my "fragment #2":
'W tajnej dyrektywie terytorialnego dowództwa UPA - "Piwnycz", podpisanej przez "Kłyma Sawura" (Roman Dmytro Klaczkiwśkyj) czytamy: "(...) powinniśmy przeprowadzić wielka akcję likwidacji polskiego elementu. Przy odejściu wojsk niemieckich należy wykorzystać ten dogodny moment dla zlikwidowania całej ludności męskiej w wieku od 16 do 60 lat(...) Tej walki nie możemy przegrać, i za każdą cenę trzeba osłabić polskie siły. Leśne wsie oraz wioski położone obok leśnych masywów powinny zniknąć z powierzchni ziemi". 17.'
Where the source 17 is "Archiwum SBU Obwodu Wołyńskiego, d. nr 11315, t. l, cz. H, s.16."VivecPL (talk) 04:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Much appreciated. I'm just curious whether these were written and published directives from the historic time period or materials gathered aurally (hence secret) during the interrogation process. (talk) 11:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Tim Snyder also clearly divides actions of UON-Bandera - the group responsible for actions in Volhynia- from UON Mel'nyk, which supported the organization of the Galizien Waffen SS division. The Bandera branch had not been controlled by Bandera since 1941, since he was in prison, but it kept his name. Most of the group's original leaders had been imprisoned or killed by 1943. I have, however, read that many Galizien SS soldiers were involved in ethnic cleansing in Volhynia in 1944. Snyder also mentions this. It also seems a bog mistake not to even mention among all the details of the brutality of the massacres that they followed a pattern used many times in later ethnic cleansing. That is, victims were mutilated and put on display in order to scare off other Poles. This helps explain why the murders were so brutal and graphically displayed. Instead, we read the NOT even the Germans and Soviets were as cruel as the Ukrainians, which is a rather far-fetched conclusion. The UPA tactics were tailored to a specific kind of campaign of terror. It is silly to use Germans or Russians as "measures" of brutality that even the Ukrainians exceeded. The quotes we provide on what the brutality looked like is very graphic and does the trick without the use of cheap rhetorical tricks. Tanessi (talk) 13:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- The soldiers of the Galzien division are often indiscriminantly blamed for a lot of things by various interested sides. They however were never in Volyn nor in Warsaw. They had their battle in Brody where they were defeated and then were regrouped and retreated to Slovakia and then Italy. Bandurist (talk) 11:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Questions
I have a few questions to those involved, thank you all in advance for helping out.
- has anybody been punished for these massacres? Not only average peasants-murderers, but also leaders of this campaign of ethnic cleansing?
- does this sad topic ever appear in Ukrainian mass-media? Do people talk about it? Do they know about what happened?
- does anybody know more about ethnic Czech village of Kupiczow (some 30 kilometers south of Kovel), with 3000 inhabitants, which also was attacked by the UPA but managed to defend itself with help from the Poles?
- also, this is not about Volhynia, but still interesting. The town of Kuty was the center of Polish Armenian community. In January of 1944 the UPA murdered some 500 people there, Poles and Armenians alike, those who survived settled in Oborniki Slaskie. Does anybody know more about this massacre?
Thank you again Tymek (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC).
Tymek: Punishment- between what the NKVD did to all Ukrainian nationalists (and many others) and the Operation "Vistula" campaign by the Polish govt. and trials of Ukrainian nationalists, people were punished for these campaigns, but by kangaroo courts for the most part. I am checking on who the Poles may have put on trial 1945-49. This topic is often in the media. I remember the uproar when 'Ji' published an entire issue on the subject. 'Ji' is a pro-Western journal (incl. U.S. govt. funding) available on-line, which tires to being Western discourses to Ukrainian audiences.Tanessi (talk) 05:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- This deals with Ukrainians in the West, but is an excellent and informative article on the topic: [11]. regardsFaustian (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic
IMO this part of the article should be either trimmed down or expanded. Without a doubt Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic was persecuted, but this section presents one-sided picture of reality. The Ukrainians had their representatives in the Polish Parliament. In 1928-1930 there were 26 of them, including Marshall Deputy of the Sejm, Volodymyr Zahajkiewicz. In 1935 there were 19 of them and in 1938 - 14, including Vasyl Mudry. There were numerous Ukrainian organizations, like Prosvita, Luh and UNDO, several newspapers and sports organizations, including the soccer team Ukraina Lwow, which was close to promotion to the Ekstraklasa. I am awaiting opinions. Tymek (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think it is balanced as is. The fact that there were some organizations, and some newspapers and even a soccer team is nice ... but what you will notice (and what Ukrainians noticed at the time) is that the number of schools, organizations, newspapers, churches etc did not correspond to the percentage of Ukrainians in the population - whereas for other minority groups such as the Czechs, Germans and Jews it was. It may be worth while expanding this section into a separate article, but I am obliged to leave it as it is Bandurist (talk) 14:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- If we expand it, the whole subject of the article will be lost, as it is not about Ukrainian minority in interwar Poland. IMO this topic should as a whole be moved to the Ukrainian minority in Poland article, leaving only a notice here. As for schools, the 1939 Statistical Yearbook of Poland informs that in 1937-38 there were 3064 bilingual Polish-Ukrainian schools, with 473 400 students. Ukrainian peasants organization Silsky Hospodar had 403 offices. In 1938 there were 14 Ukrainian theaters - not very good, not as bad as this section presents. Tymek (talk) 19:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- As it stands the section is to the point and gives some perspective and context of what was happening before this all exploded. It parallels what children say when you ask: Why did you hit him? (You get the answer) He called me a name. Why did you call him a name? He looked at me funny. Why did you look at him funny? etc.
However, I feel that an expanded separate article would be worthwhile doing. It would have to be handled carefully to get bth perspectives, but it needs doing. Bandurist (talk) 22:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian list
I have read that the president of Ukraine has endorsed publication of a voluminous report on genocide in the present territory of Western Ukraine. I do not know the title of this work, this source [12] says that four volumes have been published so far. Polish publicist Antoni Marianski gives numbers, provided by the Ukrainian report, and these numbers refer to a few counties in Volhynia:
- 5935 Ukrainians were killed by the OUN
- 1248 Ukrainians were killed by the NKVD
- 1225 Ukrainians were killed by the Germans,
- 32 Ukrainians were killed by the Polish nationalists.
Tymek (talk) 13:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Lipica poster
I feel that the Lipica poster should be removed. The photograph on the cover has been shown to have been done much earlier as is of a gypsy's children she had killed. the illustration is inflamatory, misleading and denigrate the integrity of he article. Bandurist (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- I would say it should be removed if it was just that photograph. However, it is part of a poster, seen on Polish streets. Whoever created this poster, reportedly made a mistake, but there is nothing we can do about it. Tymek (talk) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
International Military Tribunal
Note: the below is the transcript of Lahausen saying what he remembered he overheard other people saying saying 6 years earlier. Whether he remembered correctly, or whether those other people were themselves correct in their assumptions (was Ribbentrop an expert on Ukrainian matters?) is not included.Faustian (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- A very interesting affidavit by the Major General ERWIN VON LAHAUSEN – head of Abwehr Division I since 1939 regarding Canaris diary and Canaris’s memorandum (Three copies of Canaris’s memorandum of Sep 12, 1939, exist: one in the ‘Canaris–Lahousen fragments’ – a hitherto neglected file of key documents and extracts from the Canaris diary (al/1933); one in Groscurth’s papers (n.104/3); and an abbreviated copy in Lahousen’s IMT file (3047–ps); cf. Lahousen’s pre-trial interrogation of Sep 19, 1945, and Vormann’s diary, Sep 12, 1939: ‘Göring and Brauchitsch here at Ilnau. Canaris on account of Polish population)
- Place: Fuhrer train as of 12 September 1939, shortly before fall of Warsaw – participants – Hitler Ribbentrop, Keitel, Jodl and Canaris with his personal representative colonel ERWIN VON LAHAUSEN.
meeting in the coach of Keitel, who was then Chief of the OKW, and in the course of this meeting Keitel summarized and commented on the general political directives issued by Ribbentrop. He then mentioned several possible solutions for handling the Polish problem from the point of view of foreign policy – this can be happened, or something else can happen; it is quite possible. I this connection he said: “You, Canaris, have to promote an uprising with the aid of the Ukrainian organizations which are working with you and which have the same objectives, namely, the Poles and the
Jews”. [13]
“all farms and dwelling of the Poles should go up in flames, and all Jews be killed”
National Ukrainians with which Amt Abwehr cooperated along military lines, and which were to bring about an uprising in Poland, an uprising which aimed to exterminate the Poles and the Jews.
[15] Interesting, but info about this failed “uprising” appeared at Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army by Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine work published in 2004 and removed from website of Institute of Ukrainian History at Yuschenko times (Chaper 1 Tactics and Strategy of OUN at early stage of WWII pages -17-23 ) . So a more interesting thing what such “apprising” initiating specially by Bandera – while Melnik strictly oppose to such action in early 1940. So here will be not so surprise if in
OUN (B) General Instruction adopted in 1941 stated
“Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), Poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.”
Was at [16] p.62-64. Here would be interesting to state – in light of assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia – what from more 160 Poles- professors in Lwow for immediately extermination were selected “only” 38, which were more or less actively during 1940-41. So everything is Clear – initially they exterminate all Jews and after completion so (see IMT *Exhibit USA-277 (Document L-18) “Solution of Jewish question in Galicia” dated 3 June 1943) they start for “second” object – by ‘hands” of same “employees” - German auxiliary police, deserted with their weapons to join the units of UPA at Volhynia. Their number was estimated from 4 to 5 thousands - from the Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - 2004 editionJo0doe (talk) 15:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
[17] Interesting, but info about this failed “uprising” appeared at Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army by Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine work published in 2004 and removed from website of Institute of Ukrainian History at Yuschenko times (Chaper 1 Tactics and Strategy of OUN at early stage of WWII pages -17-23 )
Wow - so you suggest that the work of the Instittue of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences is tainted by politics? Was it untained during the Kuchma regime or just tainted now? What does that tell us about its reliability, when its conclusions change with the political winds?Faustian (talk) 17:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Book removed. Conclusions remain less detailed but does not changed - simply less detialsJo0doe (talk) 06:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- While it's great what you've not include this stuff
There is a transcript in which an Austrian officer says that 6 years earlier he overheard Keitel tell Canaris that Ukrainian organizations and Nazis had the same goal. You have so far not included any proof that the IMT agreed with what Keitel allegedly said.Faustian (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Jo0doe (talk) 07:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Questions
The following statement Before the occupation by the German Army in October 1939 the Polish Army destroyed the village of Zhulyn in the region of Stryj is either untrue of the date is wrong. In October of 1939 Polish Army did not exist any more. All units were destroyed either by the Germans or the Soviets. Also, the German Army never reached that far east in the fall of 1939. Tymek (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- In the article the Polish army retreated away from the town with the encroachment of the Nazis. When the Nazis did not enter th town but stayed behind some premarked line the Poles returned to the town and this is when the attrocities happened. Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Matthead thanks for your input, however, the German army did not arrive in Stryj in October 1939. Nice try, however. Tymek (talk) 00:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also, I have doubts about these sources The newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940 reported and Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians. Are we going to use Nazi newspapers in the articles? I see it as a sad joke. I have no idea what happened in the villages of Zhulyn and Dulib, but using official Nazi newspapers as sources is a gross exaggeration. 60,000 Ukrainians? Where, when? Tymek (talk) 17:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- It is however a legitimate source and an independent one from the Ukrainian sources which I thought that you would think biased. All you have to do is to show that it is incorrect.Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thirdly, The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina - this time, a Soviet source. BTW was there a Soviet newspaper Vilna Ukraina in the fall of 1939? I heard about Radianska Ukraina only. Tymek (talk) 17:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes there was a paper in Lviv called Vilna Ukraina. It continued to be published until the 1990's when a competitor "Za vilnu Ukrainu" was published and continues to be published. There was a joke regarding the newspapers they used to say in Lviv. - A guy comes up to a newspaper counter and asks: Do we have Vilna Ukraina - Nyet is the answer. Howabout Pravda - Nyet. Well what do you have - Trud (hard Labour) for 2 kopecks.Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thirdly, The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina - this time, a Soviet source. BTW was there a Soviet newspaper Vilna Ukraina in the fall of 1939? I heard about Radianska Ukraina only. Tymek (talk) 17:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the joke, but the point is that a 1939 Soviet source is hardly reliable. Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Another one: The Sovet newspaper "Komunist" for October 20 also published a report from its correspondent in Berlin about the massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv. Again, a gross exaggeration. A Soviet newspaper, which based information on a Nazi newspaper. I do not think that Wikipedia should be based on such sources. Massacre of 80 Ukrainian figures? When, what figures? Tymek (talk) 17:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Nazi and Soviet propaganda are hardly reliable sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- The materials are taken from the book The Ukrainian Freedom movement Book 2 The Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the Second World War published in Lviv 2003 by the Centre for study of the Freedom movement. Центр досліджень визвольного руху. науковий збірник. Український визвольний рух. Зоєит 2. Українсько-польський конфлікт під час Другої світової війни - Львів 2003. The editorial board consists of Professor Yaroslav Dashl\kevych, prof. Volodymyr Kosyk, prof. Volodymyr Serhiychuk, prof. Yuri Slyvka, prof. Volodymyr Stoiko, Volodymyr Viatrovych, Mykola Posivnych and Mykhailo Romaniuk. These look like pretty credible people to me. Bandurist (talk) 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Anyway, a massacre of 60,000 Ukrainians, which is not described by any other source than a Nazi newspaper, is hardly credible. Same with murdered 80 Ukrainian figures. I find it improbable, there are no other sources than this. Let me remind you that Polish authorities did not execute activists of OUN, kept in Bereza Kartuska, they all survived Polish prisons. Tymek (talk) 16:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
So – one more source from “Liberated Ukraine” in July 1941 – Lemberg City Council weekly newspaper - “Ukrainski Shchodenni Visti” #18 from 26 July 1941
“…Через море крові, яку пролляли більшовики,здавалось б, ще не знайдеться жодного народу, який би не був вдячний німцям за визволення від більшовистської неволі». Про те очевидною є співапраця поміж поляками і євреями, яких повязала прихільність до більшовиків, а також ідея винищення українства. Немає жодної подлості які б не скоїли ці московськи поплічники»
(from http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/16.pdf p.232) Jo0doe (talk) 07:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Bandurist, these names sure look credible, however, I have serious doubts if these professors have seriously treated Nazi/Stalinist propaganda as a reliable source. My guess is that they used the information provided here as examples of propaganda. Otherwise, I do not really think this book should be regarded seriously. Information provided by you here simply is wrong, and either you translated in uncorrectly, or these professors lie. 1,200,000 Ukrainians killed by the Poles beats all I have seen on Wikipedia, and I have seen a lot. With such information provided here, this article will be the laughing stock of all who want to find knowledge in the project. Tymek (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- * As regards to Bandurist “source Centre for study of the Freedom movement” at Lwow. So –it’s private institution which registered as legal person less then 2 years ago – so I got a doubt about existence of book published by them in 2003. So currently this institution known for malicious OUN/UPA propaganda full of lie, lie by omission and twisting and misusing the facts. It has no affiliation with Institute of History National Academy of Science of Ukraine. Moreover in 2003 was published a huge work by special commission consisted of Poles and Ukrainian historians. – so here a conclusions:
СПІЛЬНИЙ ВИСНОВОК УКРАЇНСЬКИХ ТА ПОЛЬСЬКИХ ІСТОРИКІВ ЗА ПІДСУМКАМИ ІХ-Х МІЖНАРОДНИХ НАУКОВИХ СЕМІНАРІВ (Варшава, 5-11 листопада 2001 р.)' Українсько-польський конфлікт у роки Другої світової війни набув особливо драматичного характеру на Волині. У 1942 р. дійшло до перших акцій з боку українських націоналістів проти поляків, що працювали в сільськогосподарській адміністрації та лісництві. Ці акції поступово поширилися на польське сільське населення східних повітів Волині. Антипольські акції керівництво ОУН обґрунтувало прагненням всіх польських політичних сил повернути адміністрацію Польської держави на теренах Волині та Східної Галичини. Навесні 1943 року після переходу до УПА української поліції, що перебувала на німецькій службі, почалися бурхливі дії партизанських загонів українських націоналістів. Від весни 1943 року ОУН і УПА вдалися до масових антипольських акцій - спочатку у східних повітах Волині, а згодом у центральних і західних. Перебіг подій засвідчував, що рішення про екстермінацію (за термінологією польських істориків) польського населення могло бути схвалене проводом ОУН весною 1943 року. Польське підпілля на Волині, що перебувало в стадії організації, не могло надати допомогу польському населенню. Радикальні заходи були вжиті Командуванням Волинського округу АК і Окружною Делегатурою уряду тільки в другій половині 1943 року, тобто зі значним запізненням і після масових вбивств польського населення в західних повітах Волині. на католицькі свята Різдва Христового 1943 р. на Волині прокотилася нова хвиля вбивств. У польсько-українському конфлікті, кульмінація якого припадає на 1943 рік, польське населення було стороною, що оборонялася. Лише створення в січні 1944 року 27 Волинської дивізії піхоти АК, призначеної для боротьби з гітлерівцями в рамках плану "Бужа", оберегло значну частину польського населення. польські партизанські відділи, організація яких почалася в другій половині липня 1943 року, нараховували тільки 1300 осіб. Лише створення в січні 1944 року 27 Волинської дивізії піхоти АК, призначеної для боротьби з гітлерівцями в рамках плану "Бужа", оберегло значну частину польського населення. Попередні підрахунки втрат опубліковані в доповідях семінару в томах "Польща - Україна: важкі питання". У доповідях також зазначається, що дії бойовиків ОУН і відділів УПА проти польського населення вражають своїм розмахом, у кількості жертв з обох сторін немає симетрії, але це не може нам заступати того факту, що і з українського боку були численні невинні жертви, зокрема на Холмщині. Окрім людських втрат, польське населення зазнало величезних матеріальних збитків. Уціліле населення було змушене залишити рідні сторони, значну кількість поляків окупанти вивезли на примусові роботи до Німеччини.
Українські історики: проф. Володимир Баран; доц. Гурій Бухало; доц. Володимир Дмитрук; проф. Богдан Заброварний; доц. Ігор Ільюшин; доц. Юрій Киричук; проф. Віктор Колесник; проф. Костянтин Кондраткж; проф. Станіслав Кульчицький; доц. Микола Кучерепа; магістр Віталій Макар; проф. Юрій Макар; проф. Степан Макарчук; доц. Віктор Матійченко; магістр Вікторія Оніщук; проф. Володимир Сергійчук; проф. Юрій Сливка; Євген Стахів; проф. Володимир Трофимович; проф. Михайло Швагуляк; доц. Ігор Цепенда. Польські історики: проф. Анджей Айненкель; проф. Едмунд Бакуняк; д-р Ґжегож Грицюк; проф. Чеслав Гжеляк; проф. Збігнев Карпус; проф. Ян Кенсік; проф. Міхал Клімецький; д-р Здіслав Конечний; д-р Ришард Котарба; проф. Ґжегож Мазур; д-р Ґжегож Мотика; д-р Збігнев Польський; д-р Чеслав Партач; проф. Адцжей Пачковський; проф. Вальдемар Резмер; д-р Анджей Л. Сова; проф. Владислав Філяр; д-р Марек Ясяк.
Jo0doe (talk) 09:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Nazi’s slave labor campaign in light of UPA actions
Just an interesting facts: many of those who escaped from OUN(B)/UPA “actions” Nazis collected and moved to “labor camps”, some of survivors “voluntarily” joined such relocations – there a plenty of such info here [18] . I early spring Hitler and Koch, Erich met to discuss increasing the number of slaves from Reichskommissariat Ukraine. So OUN(B)/UPA never suffered (no such reports in captured OUN(B)/UPA documents) from lack of ammo (as for instance Soviet partisans. Also would be useful to cite info from UPA/OUN(B) SB – security service - report: “…during reporting period (1-10 Sept 1943) 17 Poles families liquidated (58 persons)… Area in generally clean. There no pure-breed Poles. Issues of mixed families under resolving” - Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Chapter 5, p. 249-250 – there a numerous similar Jo0doe (talk) 14:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps a note of that would be useful in Forced labor in Germany in WWII? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Preamble
With the fall of Poland, numerous atrocities took place against the Ukrainian civilian population. Before the occupation by the German Army in October 1939 the Polish Army destroyed the village of Zhulyn in the region of Stryj. The newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940 reported that the Polish People's Guard after retreating, re-entered the village of Zhulyn and neighbouring Dulib. Upon discovery of Ukrainian flags on the houses, all the buildings were set on fire and those that tried to escape were bayonetted and thrown into the fire. Twelve year old Mykola Pylypov, a resident of the village had his ears, and nose cut off, eyes gouged out and then sprayed with gasoline and then set on fire.[1]
The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina" began to be published in Lviv from September 25, 1939. In almost every issue brutal accounts about the Ukrainian victims of Polish terror began to appear documenting murders of Ukrainian priests, their families and various Ukrainian cultural figures. Accounts regarding the anti-Ukrainian terrorist actions were also reported in the Soviet press. The Soviet newspaper "Komunist" for October 20 also published a report from its correspondent in Berlin about the massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv, the destruction of Ukrainian buildings.[2]
Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians. [3]
In the Sambir area on 17 September 1939 members of the Polish Border guards and the People's Guard burned down the village of Zhukotyn and Nedilna and killed Ukrainians living in the villages of Rozluch, Verkhnyj Luzhok, Busovys'ka, Spas, Tershiv and also Staryj Sambor.[4]
Numerous accounts of inhumane treatment by the Poles against the Ukrainians during the 1919-1939 period were allowed by the censors which attest to the fact that the German administration were interested in firing Polish-Ukrainian antagonism. An analytical article documenting the conyinued terror against the Ukrainians in Poland was printed in the official publication of the Gernaral-Government "Krakawer Zeitung" inder the title 1,220,000 Ukrainians were victims of Polish terror". [5]
From 1942-43 in the forests of Volyn 6 different armed formations were in action. 1) Members of the OUN (B) self-defence league (from October 1942) which later formed up with the UIA and fought the Germans and Soviet and Soviet partisans. 2)Members of the partisan groups under the direction of Taras Bul'bas-Borovetz 3) Soviet partisan groupings (from 1942) 4) Polish partisan groups, AL (Armiya Krayova) under command of the Polish government in London. 5) Partisan groups associated with the Melnyk faction of the OUN which appeared in 1943. 6) Polish communist partisan groups under the direction of Moscow.
- This whole chapter looks like a sad joke of deteriorating Wikipedia standards. Again - no Polish Army existed in October of 1939, by October of that year, German Army withdrew west and the Soviets occupied Stryj. In 1939 or 1940 there was nothing like Polish People's Guard. The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina" began to be published in Lviv from September 25, 1939 - please, Soviet occupying forces would never allow publication of indepentent Ukrainian newspapers. Polish partisan groups, AL (Armiya Krayova) - dont know what it is supposed to mean, AL stands for Armia Ludowa, a communist, pro-Moscow organization which simply did not exist in Volhynia. First Volhynian unit of Armia Krajowa was not created until early 1944. Polish communist partisan groups under the direction of Moscow. - those units were Armia Ludowa, which, as I said, were never operating in Volhynia. Writing an encyclopedia which is based on lies, misinformation and Soviet/Nazi sources really destroys the whole project. Tymek (talk) 17:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- BTW 1,220,000 Ukrainians were victims of Polish terror. Well, how about checking the Volkischer Beobachter or Pravda? Perhaps we can find 2 million victims there. Bandurist do you really believe in all this stuff? Tymek (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- All I am doing is quoting and translating from a book. October should be September (I translated it inaccurately. Whether I believe the information I think is secondary. This is what is currently being published. I do however believe that Ukrainian attacks on the Polish population did not just happen out of the blue. I do think there was a continual escalation incited by other parties which resulted in the tragedy and I think that in the analysis one has to understand that this should never happen again. By the way, even one victim is too many. Arguing over who had more victims is not too productive. Bandurist (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed this section per WP:RS, see here [19]. Feel free to add it, but with reliable sources. Tymek (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- As much as I prefer to save and improve content, I support the removal - it had too much OR and/or Nazi sources to be anywhere near reliable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- 3) Soviet partisan groupings (from 1942) 5) Partisan groups associated with the Melnyk faction of the OUN which appeared in 1943. –OUN (B) version of history?
- So it’s expected from Centre for study of the Freedom movement” at Lwow – but, per WP:Policy WP:QS above mentioned info must be appeared at article Centre for study of the Freedom movement only. ThanksJo0doe (talk)
автор, однак, вважає, що їх слід оцінювати в світлі положень про злочини проти людяності, що містяться в Статуті Міжнародного Військового Трибуналу від 8 серпня 1945 р., а також в "Конвенції у справі запобігання і покарання злочинів геноциду" Організації Об'єднаних Націй від 9 грудня 1948 р. Тут відзначимо і таке, що для виправдання воєнних злочинів нерідко посилаються на противоправну поведінку протиборствуючої сторони як підставу для допустимості цих злочинів. Однак, безвідносно до цього, у Женевських конвенціях від 1949 р., які в свою чергу базуються на нормах XXII статті Гагського положення 1907 р. про закони та звичаї війни, чітко сформульований принцип обмеження воюючих у виборі засобів і методів ведення бойових дій та покарання за порушення цих обмежень. В IV статті Конвенції у справі запобігання і покарання злочинів геноциду від 1948 р. підтверджено принцип карної відповідальності осіб, яки припустилися геноциду, незалежно від того, чи є вони відповідальними за конституцією правителями, посадовими або приватними особами. Держави повинні карати осіб, які винні у скоєнні актів геноциду, незалежно від того, чи є відповідні держави учасниками даної Конвенції, чи ні.
Jo0doe (talk) 09:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Berliner Berzenazeitung - wow!
Volhynia or not ?
The Massacre of Poles in Volhynia ...in Volhynia and eastern part of Galicia - absurd.Xx236 (talk) 08:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles ?
Ukrainian nationalists killed many (thousands?) ethnic Ukrainians or members of mixed families. Thedy killed also many Jews, not all of them Poles.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Slaughter of Jews took place there in 1942 and it falls under Holocaust, I think. As for the Ukrainians, killed by the UPA, one can find information on it in the article. However, we have to remember that these Ukrainians were killed either for not participating in the slaughter of Poles or for helping the Poles. So it all comes down to the Poles anyway. Tymek (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- The same people killed three groups - Jews, Poles and bad Ukrainians. The Holocaust context should be explained to readers, who don't know the context. I believe the slogan was - Let's kill Jews, Poles and Communists. The ideology was common. AK troops saved a number of Jews. Xx236 (talk) 10:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian Insurgent Army quotes (and probably misquotes also) some sources. It's interesting that one cannot find The Holocaust in Ukraine article.Xx236 (talk) 13:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Ukrainian policemen, who participated in the Holocaust, deserted and joined the UPA. Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
However, no known documents exist proving that the UPA-OUN made a decision to exterminate Poles in Volhynia
The quoted text is about ten years old.Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Here is one of 2003 [20].Xx236 (talk) 08:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Dmytro Dontsov should be probably mentioned in the article.Xx236 (talk) 15:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Prelude
I am removing this section, Bandurist please do not restore it, until you find reliable sources, which I highly doubt. And if you restore it, I will have to report you. Sorry, but we are trying to create a reliable encyclopedia, not a storage of Nazi and Stalinist propaganda. Tymek (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Responsibility
Sadly, this article has deteriorated into chronicle of Polish-Ukrainian real or alleged conflicts. It serves an obvious purpose - to relieve the perpetrators of the responsibility. I have never seen a German editor who tries to justify the Holocaust by claiming in Wikipedia that the Jews did this and that or that the Jews lived in ethnic German lands. Here, we have several attempts aimed at claiming that whatever happened, the Poles are to be blamed. Any human being should agree with me - under no circumstances, there should not be any justification of the mass slaughter of women and infants. The stance of the OUN-UPA was clear from the beginning - all Poles, good and bad, had to be slaughtered, no matter if they had been good to the Ukrainians before.
Polish specialists who carried out exhumations both at the site of the Katyn massacre and in some places in Volhynia, said that Katyn looked like a nursery. Bodies of Poles in Volhynia, including children, were chopped with axes, scythes and God knows what else. A Home Army commander of Volhynia, who lived in Lutsk, always carried a gun with a bullet for himself, as the Poles caught by the Ukrainians were praying for a quick death, which hardly happened. Tortures used by the murderers were unheard of, wounded children were even thrown into pigstys full of hungry pigs. And these were not separate incidents, the atrocities took 2 years until the OUN-UPA fulfilled its murderous plan.
Polish composer Krzesimir Debski lost both grandparents in the massacres. When he went to Volhynia, he met some elderly locals, who talked how good Debski's grandparents were. So he asked Why then you killed them?. The answer was Because it had to be done. Would you have killed my parents too, if you had had a chance?. Yes.
It strikes me, also here on Wikipedia. Some circles in the Ukrainian side, unfortunately, are totally unwilling and unhelpful and their stance is to deny all or blame the Germans, whose role is exaggerated by the Ukrainians. Polish historians complain that so far, no extensive research in cooperation with their Ukrainian counterparts has started. Hopefully, the Ukrainians from Western Ukraine will one day realize what their grandparents did. Currently, however, all we have are mass demonstrations of UPA veterans and erection of monuments. I am awaiting opinions. Tymek (talk) 01:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there is a difference between justification and explanation. A background section explaining some reasons about why it happened - the context of the massacres - is quite appropriate. Explaining of course does not mean excusing. The Volyn massacres are better compared to what happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990's than to the Holocaust. The Srebrenica massacre contains some background (i.e., describing how the Serbs felt that Bosnians used Srbrenica's status as a safe area to attack Serbs and retreat into the safe area).
- It should also be pointed out that not all UPA participated in these massacres and that not all people who massacred Poles were UPA. As the composers' sad case illustrates, many villagers took part. I have also read how even non-UPA guerillas of Bulba Borovets took part, not because of ideology but to become more popular with the villagers. Faustian (talk) 02:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, there are unavoidable over-simplifications on both sides. UPA was not as homogeneous as we might imagine it today. And also the distinction between UPA and non-UPA activities was not obvious in the historical circumstances in Volhynia. Nevertheless, UPA will be held responsible for what happened, as it was the major power in the area and bot conducted and supported these actions.
- As for the background on the Ukrainian hatred towards Poles that culminated in these tragic way, one has to go back to the beginning of 20th century, the WW1 Polish and Ukrainian drive towards independence, the conflict over Galicia, Austrian policies of supporting one side or another, the military conflict over Lviv, the Piłsudski Kiev offensive and the later Polish betrayal of Ukrainian allies in Riga, Polish settlers in Western Ukraine, the nationalistic policies of Polish government in the 1930s - all that could only contribute to growth of frustration of Ukrainians and hatred towards the Poles. This of course does not justify the tortures and murders of men, women and children or does not reduce the responsibility of the murderers but this was the background. --Lysytalk 11:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Lysy, you are right, and we have a chapter here describing the background. I just do not want the background to be more important than the very topic of the article. Also, we cannot omit policies of the OUN, which from the very beginning wanted to remove of all non-Ukrainians from these lands and which in the early 1930s organized large scale terrorist attacks. Stance of OUN was clear - no collaboration with the Poles, no negotiations, only open conflict. Tymek (talk) 16:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have created a stub-section "Responsibility" to discuss all this. Responsibility is a very difficult but important issue. It's still not an obvious and a very controversial issue, some may simply put all blame on UPA, others will blame both Polish and Ukrainian nationalisms, the brutality and the greed of the primitive peasants, or the Germans, who had the responsibility to keep order in the territories they occupied. Having this discussion isolated in a separate section of the article will help us keep the rest of the article tidy. Can we agree on that, that we will move all the "blame" advocacy to this section ? --Lysytalk 17:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Rework
This article is too long and full of marginal or irrelevant details and discussion, it's also not readable. Can we try to shorten it, and make sure that it stays focused on the merit, without all this advocacy of one or another side of the conflict ? --Lysytalk 12:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
memo: two interesting recent radio recordings in mp3: http://www.polskieradio.pl/iar/wiadomosci/artykul58091.html The second one is by a Ukrainian historian Ihor Iliuszyn. --Lysytalk 22:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Soviet Union (1939-1941)
I'm a bit confused about the Poles fleeing from Volhynia to the Nazi zone. Was it a significant number, warranting this being mentioned in the article ? --Lysytalk 12:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Nazi occupation (1941-1944)
"The idea of the deportation of the Polish population in Western Ukraine" requires some more explanation, as currently it's unclear. Who was deported where ? How was this relevant to Volhynia ? --Lysytalk 12:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Genocidium atrox ?
Is this term notable enough to be mentioned in the article ? I've searched for English sources with google but found none. --Lysytalk 20:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think it is relevant. We never know, perhaps in the future it will be commonly used to describe events like this. Tymek (talk) 05:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Stealth rename
I'm upset by the way Bandurist attempts to change the name of this very sensitive article without any attempt to discuss his idea with the other editors first. --Lysytalk 00:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Depolonization of Volyn - well, it takes a vivid imagination to come up with this. Bandurist, how about changing Holocaust into Dejewishization of Europe? Tymek (talk) 05:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The term "Massacre" when used fro the Volyn tragedy was first applied by E. Prus in his work Prus E. Heroi spod znaku tryzuba: Konowalec - Bandera - Szuchewicz - Warszawa, 1985. Prus belongs to the more extremist Polish nationalist school of historic thought. He uses sensationalism and does not back up all his claims with reliable sources and as a result much of his work has been discredited.
The term De-polonisation was introduced by Polish historian was T. Olszacski in Lukaszow J. (Olszacski T. A.) Walki polsko-ukrainkiej 1943-1947 //Zeszyty Historyczne 1989 - 90 - S. 159-199 in (1989) and was quickly taken up by the more liberal and democratic historians in Poland as being more descriptive and less inflamatory.
Your choice of terminology and source of materials IMHO steers this article in a direction which only promotes distaste, and not an understanding of the phenomena. Bandurist (talk) 10:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, Bandurist. I don't think Prus published in English, so how could he possibly coin the English term ? Over the couple of years I've spent on English wiki, I realized that the word "massacre" is surprisingly disturbing to russophones, who routinely object against its usage in any circumstances. In English language it is a perfectly valid term, implying nothing more than its meaning - the brutal and intentional killing of a group of people, which actually happened. Maybe Ukrainian language has a similar issue to Russian, and the word "massacre" has some more complex meaning in it ? Anyway, I've scanned google for the English names for the events and it seems that massacre is the most common term in use. Also, if you check the wikipedias in other languages, they use similar terms without any problems, again with the exception of the Russian one, which uses "Волынская резня" and Ukrainian, which uses "Волинська трагедія". In Polish language the events are widely referred to as "Rzeź Wołyńska". Why do you think that the current title "steers the article in a direction which only promotes distaste" ? I'd also object the title you proposed, not only because it's not widely used, it's euphemistic but also it contains a thesis, that the only reason for the cruelty of the killings was "de-polonization", while recent research indicate, that the greed of Ukrainian peasants could also be one of the motives. If only "de-polonization" was the reason, the goal could have been achieved with much more peaceful and humane methods. --Lysytalk 13:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- P.S. Please note that none of the Prus publications is used as a source for this article. --Lysytalk 14:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Volhynia or Volyn ?
The article uses both Volhynia and Volyn names in different places. Can someone explain this please ? --Lysytalk 14:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Volhynia is a transcript from the German. It is often used by German Mennonites and by Jews who have emigrated from the region. It gives 12,000 hits on Google. Volyn is the current name and a more correct transcription. It gives 88,000 hits on Google. It is also the prefered term used by Brittanica. Bandurist (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Can we standardize on either ? The wiki article uses the name Volyn, so it would be more natural to stick to this one, perhaps. --Lysytalk 15:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- The article was at Volhynia until Bandurist recently moved it, citing usage by Britannica. However, the online Britannica uses Volhynia, as does Columbia. Paul Robert Magocsi's Historical Atlas of Central Europe (2002) uses Volhynia as well. Olessi (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I see. Still I don't understand why we are using both forms. Is it at random or is there a meaningful pattern. Myself I'm using Volhynia or Volyn at places - I'm obviously confused. If there's no reason to use both forms throughout the article, I'd rather stick to one of them. --Lysytalk 06:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Eastern Galicia
I'm not sure what to do with the "Eastern Galicia" section. It should present the events in a more synthesized manner instead of going into all the details of the names of the priests etc. But I'm not sure if it belongs to the article in the first place, as Galicia is not Volhynia. Theoretically, it could be a separate article, but then we would have two articles to guard against the attacks of various hyperactive nationalistic fighters and trolls, so maybe it should rather stay here in a somewhat compacted form ? --Lysytalk 19:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- What happened in Eastern Galicia was directly connected with Volhynia. After the Poles had been eliminated from there, activities of the Ukrainian nationalists were concentrated in Eastern Galicia and same thing happened there on a similar scale. The only difference was that the Poles in Galicia were more numerous and better organized, therefore, less people died. It should remain. Tymek (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree but where/when do we stop then ? --Lysytalk 22:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- We could rename it into Massacres of Poles in present Western Ukraine, and it would be the name that covers the whole phenomenon. Few people know that Poles were also killed by the Ukrainian nationalists in Bucovina, which had been part of Romania in the interbellum and the atrocities did not end after the Red Army entered the area of current Western Ukraine. However, I have doubts if other editors will agree with my suggestion. Tymek (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Nay, I would not rename the article for now, but in order to maintain some discipline it's good to be aware of the scope of the subject it covers. There are at least three aspects:
- Only UPA driven actions or others as well ?
- What time scale ?
- Geographic coverage ?
- I for one would prefer to stay minimalistic. --Lysytalk 23:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree but where/when do we stop then ? --Lysytalk 22:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The current title is of the same quality as Tykocin pogrom which was "a pogrom and subsequent massacre", where the pogrom meant that the Germans called the Tykocin Jews to assemble early morning in the market square. Words have a certain meaning. Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Let me put the question another way them - what do we want the article to cover ? UPA massacre of the Poles in Western Ukraine or less (in Volhynia only) or more (not only UPA) ? --Lysytalk 09:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Ryszard Szawłowski as a source for this article
The man is a lawyer, not a historian. An example of his work indicates that he is as credible a source as the UPA itself would be. Here are quotes from a review written by Szawlowski [21]:
"Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutling off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16."
As Irpen stated, "by the author's rating the degree of evilness increases from Germans to Soviets and further to Ukrainians. Nice source indeed."
More from Szawlowski's review: "Let us add that on a European scale, as far as dreadful tortures go,the genocide committed by the Ukrainians on the Poles is only comparable, to a certain extent, to the Croatian genocide (by the Ustasi of Ante Pavelic) against the Serbs during World War II from the spring of 1941. "
And: "As for the stance taken by the upper levels of the clergy of the Greek-Catholic Church, which has taken, in the present day, the rather pretentious and ethnocentric name of Byzantine-Ukrainian Church..."
Szawlowski also defends Wiktor Poliszczuk the non-historian while methodically critiquing actual historians such as Hrycak or the Polish historian Ryszard Torzecki in his article.
We should probably avoid such a source of information as Szawlowski. It seems about as credible as the work of an UPA member.Faustian (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know about Szawłowski, but I would be inclined to agree with some of his comments about the cruelty. Anyway, as I mentioned before, I'm rather mixed about having him mentioned - I don't feel this increases the quality of the article. As for the "rather pretentious" name of Byzantine-Ukrainian Church, "inventing" terms like genocidium atrox seems more pretentious to me. --Lysytalk 23:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Lysy, why you dislike the genocidium atrox? Because it was coined by a Pole? The termGenocide also was coined by a Pole. As for Szawlowski, the fact that he is a lawyer should not dismiss his works. If we reject all sources written by non-historians, half of Wikipedia would remain unreferenced. And a comment - unlike the Nazis or the Soviets, who had their own professional units of killers, genocide in Volhynia and Galicia was largely carried out by Ukrainian peasants. Level of cruelty was unheard of, even in wartime Europe. As I wrote before - Poles in Volhynia dreamed of a quick death, alas it seldom happened. It seemed like the perpetrators found pleasure in slow, merciless tortures of any Pole they caught, e.g. they levelled with axes a Polish beggar in one village, who had a hump. Szczepan Siekierka, a witness from the area of Tarnopol, who still lives, talked about numerous Polish kids, impaled on wooden poles. Tymek (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have no doubt about the cruelty. My doubts are about mentioning genocidium atrox in the article. If it's notable then why doesn't it have an article of its own ? As I said, it did not even pass the google test, so the whole concept is probably unheard of outside certain circles in Poland. --Lysytalk 23:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Lysy, why you dislike the genocidium atrox? Because it was coined by a Pole? The termGenocide also was coined by a Pole. As for Szawlowski, the fact that he is a lawyer should not dismiss his works. If we reject all sources written by non-historians, half of Wikipedia would remain unreferenced. And a comment - unlike the Nazis or the Soviets, who had their own professional units of killers, genocide in Volhynia and Galicia was largely carried out by Ukrainian peasants. Level of cruelty was unheard of, even in wartime Europe. As I wrote before - Poles in Volhynia dreamed of a quick death, alas it seldom happened. It seemed like the perpetrators found pleasure in slow, merciless tortures of any Pole they caught, e.g. they levelled with axes a Polish beggar in one village, who had a hump. Szczepan Siekierka, a witness from the area of Tarnopol, who still lives, talked about numerous Polish kids, impaled on wooden poles. Tymek (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that Szawlowski is not a historian is one of several things that argue against his work's inclusion here. His stated belief that in order of evilness Ukrainians were the worse, then Soviets, then Germans is another one. The fact that Szawlowski has the highest praise for a propagandist such as Wiktor Poliszczuk (whom real historians dismiss) while criticing actual historians also argues against his work's inclusdion here. When it comes to a controversial issue we ought to be extra careful with sources and strive for the highest standards. Szawlowski doesn't come close to meeting any sort of standard. If we include Szawlowski, we might as well include UPA propogandists too.Faustian (talk) 00:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Faustian, I think it's not about the evilness but the cruelty of the Ukrainian peasants. Why were they so cruel ? The differences in the civilisation development in Poland are visible even today when you move from the west towards east, and they were even larger in the times before WW2. Were the peasants in Volhynia more brutal, cruel or primitive than e.g. in Poznań area ? Of course. Why ? Because they were civilisationally backward, I don't know how much, perhaps 100 years behind but the differences between the east and the west were huge. How else could you explain all these needless tortures ? --Lysytalk 00:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Role of Sluzba Bezpeky
I think that we should also add information about UPA's Sluzba Bezpeky, which was kind of the political police, and whose members were regarded as the most ruthless, both to the Poles and those Ukrainians who disagreed. Tymek (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I thought about it too. They largely contributed to the terror among Ukrainians in Volyn. --Lysytalk 23:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Sources
I've reviewed the sources of the article, and while some are indeed scholarly books or other publications, there are many that are just some more or less obscure webpages, magazines etc. Can we try to use quality sources only ? Otherwise we'll never be able to make it a decent article ... --Lysytalk 07:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
Now the article says Two is three. Either the title is Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia or the first sentence should be in Volhynia only.Xx236 (talk) 10:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- The title is not descriptive. The scope is explained in the lead. Please see the discussion above. --Lysytalk 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Geography and the Germans
As much as German influence has to be taken into consideration, I think it is an exaggeration to claim that the massacres were result of German policies. This sentence in the lead However it culminated in the bloodshed only when Germans occupied Galicia and Volhynia and began encouraging inter-ethnic violence in the territories they controlled is a simplification, which tries to put too much blame on the Germans. Let me point out some facts:
- we all know that in 1942-1943 the Germans controlled not only western Volhynia, but also eastern part of the province, around the city of Zhitomir. A numerous Polish minority lived and still lives there, yet local Ukrainians did not attack their Polish neighbors. Why? Did the Germans stop their divide and conquer policies at the border town of Korzec?
- I find it odd that almost all Poles were killed in the Ukrainian-populated county of Sarny, yet in the neighboring, Belarusian-populated counties of Pinsk and Luniniec, there were no massacres. Did the Germans want to divide the Poles and the Ukrainians, but not the Poles and the Belarusians? Odd, isn’t it?
- massacres in Eastern Galicia continued well into 1945, even after the war. There are cases in which Poles set to leave their hometowns and go to Silesia, were killed at the eleventh hour. What do the Germans have to do with it?
Please note that all massacres took place only in territories with strong presence of OUN-UPA, as this organization did not exist in pre-1939 Soviet Ukraine. Elsewhere, in ethnically-mixed lands, there was no slaughter of this scale.
Awaiting comments. Tymek (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Massacres in Volhynia actually preceded OUN-UPA control over the nationalist movement there. The later massacres occuring in Eastern Galicia may often have had different causes than the ones in Volyn. Sometimes they were the result of perceived Polish collaboration with Soviet forces. For example, read pages 117-119 here: [22]. This is one example. Polish informants in the village of Snovychi, Galicia, led to a Soviet raid in January 1945 that resulted in 74 Ukrainian rebels being captured. In reprisal, when UPA returned to the village eight Polish men and one Polish woman from the village were tied up and burned alive in their houses. Polish collaboration with the Soviet authorities as informants was so significant that after the Poles were deported from east Galicia en amsse at the end of 1945 the local NKVD officers were complaining that they no longer had any informants to let them know what was going on in the villages.Faustian (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- There were tens of thousands of Ukrainians who also collaborated with the Soviets and who fought in the Red Army. Still, I would be happy to get the answer about German influences, which are IMO grossly exaggerated. Also, IMO, events in Eastern Galicia were direct continuation of massacres of Volhynia. With regards. Tymek (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and those ones from Western Ukraine were also treated savagely by UPA. For example, wives of Red Army soldiers were often murdered in a very brutal way. However, regular people (peasants) seemed to have been much less invovled in Galicia than in Volyn during the massacres. I don't know why. This is my Original Research, but I speculate whether higher educational level in Galicia may have contributed. Or perhaps also the efforts of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The hierarchs of the Greek Catholic Church tried very hard to prevent involvement in massacres (the Church's head threatened any participant or even any associate of participants with excommunication). Volyn was Orthodox, however.Faustian (talk) 17:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- There were tens of thousands of Ukrainians who also collaborated with the Soviets and who fought in the Red Army. Still, I would be happy to get the answer about German influences, which are IMO grossly exaggerated. Also, IMO, events in Eastern Galicia were direct continuation of massacres of Volhynia. With regards. Tymek (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tymek, that the last sentence in the lead, while true, suggests a simple and false answer to the question of responsibility. I'll try to rephrase/expand it a bit. --Lysytalk 16:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Let we look at Soviet-German front-line at the time, when the Galicia “action” stared – i.e. since end of 1943 – all becomes clear. . So OUN(B)-UPA “success” in 1943 and “fault” of 1944 in Galicia very simple – they lost support of masters. So “stories” of Poles- “soviet agents” killed in 1943-44 for “soviet collaboration” in January 1945 – so it’s still OUN(B)-UPA indulge attempt by “12 Germans battalions defeated by UPA-ghost fighters” author
- I once again highly recommend IMT materials – “same objectives”.Jo0doe (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Also look this one [23] - and wording here http://www.ukemonde.com/bandera/ - isn't actions of editors look sweety similar? Jo0doe (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian police
I've tried to link to an article about the Ukrainian collaborationist police but couldn't find it. Is there an article similar to Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202 but about the Ukrainian police, not Polish ? --Lysytalk 17:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- This article, though focussed on Jewish issues, is a good one about Ukrainian nationalist police: [24].Faustian (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- May be OUN(B) proponent police?
- I assume such articles does not exist in WP because “group of editors known of thousands lienes” in WP will be strongly oppose to such historical facts Jo0doe (talk) 11:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje16/text11.htm
In his final report on "The Solution of the Jewish Question in Galicia," SS- Gruppenfьhrer and General Lieutenant of the Police Fritz Katzmann singled out those who aided him in the difficult job of making the District of Galicia judenfrei. They were "the forces of the Security and Order Police, the Gendarmerie, the Special Service and the Ukrainian Police." Kaztmann, SS- Gruppenfьhrer und Generalleutnant der Polizei, "Lцsung der Judenfrage in Galizien," 30 Juni 1943, International Military Tribunal, Nьrnberg, German, USA Exhibit 277, L-18, p. 18 (consulted in YVA, O6/28-1). Katzmann's authoritative report is quoted here because, in spite of the evidence of numerous German documents as well as eyewitness testimonies, the involvement of the Ukrainian police in the destruction process is often passed over in silence or denied in Ukrainian circles. At the Conference on Jewish-Ukrainian Relations in Historical Perspective (McMaster University, 1983) a man who claimed to have served as a Ukrainian policeman under the Nazi occupation challenged statements made by Aharon Weiss and denied that the Ukrainian police took part in anti-Jewish actions. When, as co-editor for history of Encyclopedia of Ukraine, I added a sentence about participation in the murder of Jews to the article on "Ukrainian Auxiliary Police," the sentence was stricken from the final version
Jo0doe (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't know this article was about Jews.Faustian (talk) 03:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- So we spoke why - despite the numerous of liens there still not exist a lot of articles similar to Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202
and why info about the western Ukrainian collaborationist police hardly to find at the "top western historians" from Ukrainian DiasporaJo0doe (talk) 07:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't you write such an article rather than bring in irrelevent information to this one's talk pages? As for top western historians - the info about Ukrainian collaborationist police is found in Himka, isn't it?Faustian (talk) 13:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Directly relevant. It's my practice - I put info which not exist at article at talk page first - so the other editors can incorporte it into. If they want not or distort it (as with UPA case) - I wait and do it by myself. So did you point hardly to find and western Ukrainian collaborationist police ? So any other name - may be at Subtelnyy and Masoci? How fair ? Or they just put Soviet POW first and silence about free-will OUN(B) members?Jo0doe (talk) 16:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Polite wording - "misleading statements"
So here [25] is intresting statement and comments on it [26] - so as a follow up here a further [27] Jo0doe (talk) 09:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is off-topic and belongs in the discussion page of the article Lviv Civilian Massacre (1941).Faustian (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Jo, You neglected to give a reference to the Ukrainian State Security Department. Here are copies of the original letters in English and the documents they received. [[here]] or this here Bandurist (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Numbers
139590 persons (Osadnik as of from pre September 1, 1939 Polish territories (West Ukraine and West Belarus) as of April 1940 were relocated. As of August 1941 109233 of them were Poles .
In 1941 also were deported 88097 persons from all newly acquired territories (Baltic countries, Besarabia, West Ukraine and Belarus. Source - Ivan Bilas. Repressive-punishment system in Ukraine. 1917-1953 Vol.2 Kyiv Lybid-Viysko Ukrainy, 1994 ISBN 5-325-00599-5 from State Archive of Russian Federation
As of 1939 there were 327,9 thousands Catholics (presumably all Poles) at Volhynia voyevodstvo. As of September 1 , 1944 there were 41,8 thousands Poles at Volinia region and ~50 thousands in Rivne region (both – major part of pre 1939 Volhynia voyevodstvo) Source – Stepan Makarchuk - “Volhynia population losses in 1941-47” p 201-203 at Independent Cultural Weekly. #28 Lviv 2003
Mobilized to Soviet&Polish Armies as of 23 September 1944 from Rivne region – 98 693 Ukrainians and 5262 Poles from Volhynia region 79 472 Ukrainians and 3067 Poles, from Ternopilska region – 105 761 Ukrainians and 30 072 Poles. Source – p.305 from Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army Kyiv 2004.
So may be better to fix “millions of deported in 1939-41” as there 1.173.170 trudposelentsy at GULAG (including 137K osadniki and 77 K refugees) total by end of 1941Jo0doe (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- Also would be usefull this link with numbers http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/g_1.htm http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/g_2.htm Jo0doe (talk) 09:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian victims
According to Polish sources UPA killed thousands of Ukrainians, many of them before the massacres of Poles started. Xx236 (talk) 10:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that's not the point of the article
{{{ BoxingWear - BWear - Miranda }}} (talk) 21:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC) This Wikipedia should cover all problems proportionally, not selected ones. Xx236 (talk) 09:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I softend the language in the article in three places: 1) Polish historiography is not univcoal, the 'tendencies' are covered in the link provided. 2) The word 'only' in terms of when UPA was formed sounds defensive. The second half of the sentence make the point on its own. 3) I moved the word 'most' to reflect the uncertainty more accurately.
I did not intend to alter in principle the content in these passages. 79.173.3.223 (talk) 13:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
WP:QS and SPS
Look like group of editors attempt to use a WP as a whitewashing vehicle for murderers by the inserting a Fringe theory adopted by tiny community which reflect mass extermination of children women and elders simply because they Poles as a reaction to the “despite the fact that the vast majority of the population of Volyn was Ukrainian (see the table), practically all government and administrative positions, including the police, were assigned to ethnic Poles”. While notable extensive usage of WP:QS and WP:SPS published at Lwow– namely Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 92, Сивицький, М. Записки сірого волиняка Львів 1996 с.184. Despite the fact of availability of joint Polish-Ukrainian historians conclusion and plenty of historically sealed materials.Jo0doe (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Edit war warning
If the edit warrring continues, I'll protect this article. Please discuss things on talk, not just edit war.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I expect no arguments for blanking and QS reinstating in article - simply group of editors tend to exploit the WP for own proposes-- Jo0doe (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- You should prbably just block JoeDoe rather than protect the article - most of his edit history consists of edit warring on different topics related to Ukraine.Faustian (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- And most of edit warring initiated by same cooperative of editors. And all edit warring related to removal by cooperative of editors “undesired info” about Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists – Bandera (OUN-B)fraction Nazi origin and collaboration, war crimes etc. – but not to UKRAINE as allegedly claimed above.
- You should prbably just block JoeDoe rather than protect the article - most of his edit history consists of edit warring on different topics related to Ukraine.Faustian (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Untrue. Jo0doe (talk) has also been quite active in edit warring the Holodomor article: [28]. The real pattern behind Jo0doe (talk)'s disruptions is not "related to removal by cooperative of editors “undesired info” about Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists" (I, for example, have added much such undesirable info myself) but about attacking the most anti-Soviet historical topics in Ukraine. I do not know Jo0doe (talk)'s political beliefs, but I can speculate about them because his devotes his disruptions to going after the two topics that most divide Blue from Orange Ukraine - UPA and the Holodomor (just as an example, in reaction to Yushchenko stipulating that monuments to the Holodomor be built, politicians in places such as Crimea put up monuments devoted to the victims of UPA.) Faustian (talk) 13:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Cooperative of editor much more liked to pose OUN-B proponents or sponsored by OUN publications as RS for WP.
A perfect collections – isn’t:
- Сивицький, М. Записки сірого волиняка Львів 1996
- Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban
- newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940
- Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians
While a “wrong history” removed without explanation
- СПІЛЬНИЙ ВИСНОВОК УКРАЇНСЬКИХ ТА ПОЛЬСЬКИХ ІСТОРИКІВ ЗА ПІДСУМКАМИ ІХ-Х МІЖНАРОДНИХ НАУКОВИХ СЕМІНАРІВ (Варшава, 5-11 листопада 2001 р.)
- Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Chapter 5
- http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/g_1.htm
Simply because they not allow to perpetrate a hoax in WP for cooperative of editors.
As you’ve point out – no discussion intent exist – simply provocative messagesJo0doe (talk) 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Taking into account the recent edits - I can conlcude what affort were given to hoax the WP by distorting the facts and give a wrong emphasis to events -- Jo0doe (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- There is no "cooperative of editors." It's just you against everyone else. Here is Jo0doe (talk)'s edit history: [29]. Everything that is not talking (in JoeDoe's case, talking means nasty arguments), is edit warring, typically massive reversions that are themselves reverting by one of many editors. Since Jo0doe (talk) limits his disruptions to Ukrainian topics, most of the people who revert him seem to be Ukrainians. But not exclusively - he has also engaged in revert warring with User:Narking as seen here: [30]. As for Jo0doe (talk) 's accusations of "hoaxing", he has also accused me of hoaxing because I provided the year 1972 instead of 1973 for a reference.
- The real question is - why is he allowed to continue being disruptive? One reason may be that a lot of administrators are unfamiliar with the content and prefer to stay away from the mountain of info. But behind that smokescreen is the fact that Jo0doe (talk) engages in disruptive behavior.Faustian (talk) 13:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So – just another “Austrian officer” case. So here article which reflected the OUN-B activities [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], [Ukrainian Insurgent Army ] [Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941] allegedly claimed as “Ukrainian topic” – not – it actually should be placed as Galician’s Fascist activities category – it’s may be for some extremists look like Ukrainian, but that is not true. As regards hoaxing – see a short list of such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army/Archive_03#WP:NOHOAXES – most of them perpetrated by editor recently nominated me as “troll” and “clown”. All edit warring as spin around explained in War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora by J O H N - P A U L H I M K A
- Cooperative of editor would like to compose WP articles to match this “black spot” – see examples what they don’t like to see or distort to justify or downgrade the facts
- UPA
OUN -B General Instruction adopted in 1941 “ Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), Poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.” [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], There exist a several documented cases when such redistributed arms to Poles self-defense units were confiscated by Nazi’s and such Polish settlements were immediately after exterminated by OUN/UPA. Some survived Poles found shelter near the Soviet partisan’s camps. [35] In second half of 1943 in some areas they together with polish self defense units conducted cooperative actions against UPA; in 1944 such actions reached a larger scale. [36]
- [Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941]
- Memorandum dated 8 May 1941, entitled “General Instructions for all Reich Commissioners in the Occupied Eastern Territories”.
In these instructions to his chief henchmen Rosenberg outlines the political aims and purposes of the attack. …. The Ukraine shall become an independent state in alliance with Germany
- Apparently convinced that the group of Stetsko had the backing of the Germans Metropolitan Sheptitskyy wrote a pastoral letter in which he exhorted the people to support the newly proclaimed government “the scarifies which the final attainment of our goals require demand above all dutiful obedience to the just orders of the government which do not conflict with God’s law.” Moreover he declared:
We greet the victorious German Army as deliver from enemy. We render our obedient homage to the government which has been erected. We recognize Mr.Yaroslav Stetsko as Head of State Administration of the Ukraine. The pastoral letter was read over the radio by chaplain of Nachtigall Battalion Father Hryn’okh the same morning. It appeared to have removed any doubts which may have been lingering in the mind of most prominent Ukrainians in Lviv concerning the origin of the Stets’ko government. [12
Indeed it can’t be found at Ukrainian Diaspora source what OUN/UPA adopt a Hitler salute as official greetings
- IV Окремі постанови 2.ОУН уживає свойого окремого організаціного прапору червоної та чорної краски.
- 3.Організаційний привіт має форму піднесення випростованої правої руки в право-скіс вище висоти вершка голови. Обовязуючи слова повного привіту: «Слава Україні» - відповідь –«Героям слава». Допускається скороченн привіту – «Слава»- «Слава».
But WP is not Ukrainian Diaspora Online property – so cooperative effort to hoax WP [32] by Blank Spots in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora should be limited Jo0doe (talk) 16:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing up Himka. Another example of your using him out of context. Speaking of Ukrainian nationalist antisemitism, Himka concluded: [33]
- "Ukrainian nationalism incorporated little modern anti- Semitic ideology. (32) The main thrust of the Ukrainian struggle was directed against Russians and Poles; the Jews were merely adjunct. Ukrainian nationalism never developed the fully articulated anti-Semitism that existed in Polish, Russian, Hungarian or Romanian nationalisms. (33) Ukrainians and Ukrainian nationalists may have disliked Jews, but they did so on traditional or on real-political grounds; rarely would they demonize Jews or place them at the center of some conspiracy. None the less, in the era of nationalism anti-Semitic ideology was widespread in Eastern Europe, and certainly the Ukrainians were frequently exposed to it, even if they did not incorporate it into their own nationalist discourse. In some cases, anti- Semitism was a major component of the ideology of nationalist movements with which the Ukrainian national movement engaged in intense conflict, such as Polish National Democracy in Austrian Galicia and interwar Poland and the Russian Black Hundreds in tsarist Ukraine. In certain states within which the Ukrainians found themselves, anti-Semitism suffused the political culture (late imperial Austria, imperial Russia, interwar Poland, interwar Romania). This constant exposure to anti-Semitic ideology probably facilitated its acceptance when it was also espoused, in a more lethal form, by the German occupation authorities.
- "...A remarkable example is the decision by the Bandera movement to infiltrate the Ukrainian police units set up by the Germans. Although the police units were at first largely recruited from the pre-existing police forces, volunteers were also accepted, especially after the Germans realized that the pre-existing police formations, particularly in the pre-1939 Soviet Ukraine, included a large number of Communist party members in their ranks. The Bandera movement, that is, the radical wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was intent on establishing a Ukrainian state and understood that it needed an armed force to achieve this goal. Participation in the police units would provide Ukrainian nationalists with some training and with arms. Indeed, the thousands of Ukrainian policemen who deserted in the fall of 1942 contributed immensely to the formation of the Bandera- dominated UPA. (37) Prior to that the Bandera movement had virtually taken over a police academy in Rivne, where the Banderites stockpiled weapons and taught recruits to prepare for "a war of liberation of Ukraine against Germany" until their activities were uncovered by the Germans in the spring of 1942. (38) The nationalists of the Bandera movement reckoned that as the front moved eastward, relatively few German forces would be left in Ukraine. At that point, the Ukrainian police could overwhelm the German civil administration ("If there were fifty policemen to five Germans, who would hold power then?"). (39)
- Of course, infiltrating the Ukrainian police formations meant taking part in anti-Jewish actions. Apparently, this did not constitute an obstacle of conscience for the radical nationalists. In fact, taking part in some actions was probably useful, since weapons could be confiscated during ghetto clearings and added to the stockpile. (40) When the Germans discovered the stockpiles associated with the Rivne academy, the members of the Bandera movement denied that they were theirs and said they belonged to Jews. (41) According to the Germans, to finance their activities, the Banderites raised some of their contributions from Jews, whom they often blackmailed. (42) On the other hand, the Bandera movement provided some Jews with false papers. (43) The impression created by the German documentation is that the extreme Ukrainian nationalists were so indifferent to the fate of the Jews (44) that they would either kill them or help them, whichever was more appropriate to their political goals."
- WP is not Jo0doe (talk) online property, you know. All your words are just a smokescreen for your one-man edit warring.Faustian (talk) 21:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you -
Ukrainian nationalism incorporated little modern anti- Semitic ideology
It's a articles about past not modern. Read carefully "Blank spot" article--Jo0doe (talk) 08:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Tymothy Snyder vs. Original Archival Research
A classic example of article disruption by Jo0doe (talk) . Here is the reversion: [34]. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources. The article, referenced to secondary sources such as Timothy Snyder, states that: "During 1939-1941 1.450 million inhabitants were deported by the Soviet authorities, of whom 63.1% were Poles, and 7.4% were Jews.[6] Others escaped from the Soviet-occupied territories to the areas controlled by Germans. Several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including Polish officers from Sovietannexed territories murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8] The deportations and murders deprived the Poles of their community leaders."
Jo0doe (talk) apparently decided that the reliable secondary sources indicated that the Soviets were too brutal, so he tried to add archival data to contradict the conclusions of the secondary source [35]: According to declassified NKVD data 309-321 thousands of Poland citizens were deported in 1940-41 from annexed by USSR Poland territory, of those 10864 was died by July 1, 1941. Amongst them non less then 80 thousands were Jews refugees. From captured and interned in 1939-40 130 242 of Polish Army military personnel 42 400 were released , approximately 43 thousands transferred to occupied by Germans territory, 15131 were executed in 1940. While according to Timothy Snyder, several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including the Polish officers from Soviet occupied Poland murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8].
So, we see Jo0doe (talk) using original research to try to discredit a reliable secondary source on an article page. This disuptive editor has beendoing such tricks on the UPA page and the Holodomor page for months, then engaging in low level revert wars to try to include his version. This has been going on for months. Because he has been allowed to continue, we see the pattern of his disruptions expanding into other articles such as this one. When will he finally be blocked? Any admins following this article?Faustian (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
He has been trying to do the same in the Russian wiki and Ukrainian wiki. The reaction to him there has been swift and strong. Here people are too nice to him. Bandurist (talk) 16:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Editors now try spoil the WP:Credibility by including deliberately in it propaganda originated from student work - see
- УКРАЇНСЬКО-ПОЛЬСЬКЕ ПРОТИСТОЯННЯ У ВЕРЕСНІ 1939 РОКУ У ТОГОЧАСНІЙ ПРЕСІ ТА СПОМИНАХ ОЧЕВИДЦІВ
[36] and similar quality of other sources by cooperative of editor.--Jo0doe (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
An interesting reading
Collaboration in Eastern Galicia: The Ukrainian police and the Holocaust Gabriel N. Finder; Alexander V. Prusin
East European Jewish Affairs, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter 2004, pp. 95–118 ISSN 1350-1674 (print); 1743-971X (online)
Some text would be useful for article.
The Soviet occupation of eastern Galicia from September 1939 to June 1941 reinforced Ukrainian national ambitions in the region. Since Soviet rule spelled the demise of the despised Polish state, a considerable number of Ukrainians initially welcomed the Soviets and occupied higher levels in the Soviet administration.
Ukrainian collaboration purposefully enabled the redistribution of social capital and space in the region in an effort to establish a nationally homogenous Ukrainian state, a ‘Ukraine for Ukrainians’. A Ukrainian police force was a cornerstone of this policy
While Ukrainian police forces distinguished themselves in Lwow, they were active helpers of the Germans throughout eastern Galicia, in the countryside as well as in towns. The Ukrainian police was also deployed in the repression of the area’s Polish population. For example, on 1 November 1941 Ukrainian policemen in Stanislawow took part in a mass round-up of the Polish intelligentsia (and the city’s Jews). The Ukrainian police actively participated in round-ups of Poles for forced labour in Germany. In their marching songs Ukrainian policemen would sing ‘death to the Lakhs [Poles] and the Judeo-Moscovite commune.’59 The brevity of this essay does not permit us to discuss the role of Ukrainian police forces in the persecution of ethnic Poles, but in this regard we would like to make one observation. Within the context of the Ukrainian restructuring of western Ukraine (eastern Galicia and Volhynia), Poles constituted a significant threat to Ukrainian aspirations of hegemony in the region. Thus in Volhynia in March 1943 and then in Galicia in August of the same year the leadership of OUN-B initiated the forcible mass removal of the Polish population in which deserters from the Ukrainian police force in Volhynia played a
conspicuous role.
and esppecially that conclusion
Violence generated by war and escalating to genocide became the tool of Ukrainian nationalist dreams, laying the foundations for a prospective – and chimerical – Ukrainian state on the basis of conquest, subjugation and, ultimately, the annihilation of Ukraine’s principal enemies in eastern Ukraine – Jews and Poles.
--Jo0doe (talk) 13:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Jo: You can get more pertenant information like this from the Flat Earth Society site here and discuss it on the forum here. They would appreciate your "scholarly" input and erudition. Bandurist (talk) 13:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Polish police under Soviet occupation
The article says Cases where Polish police collaborating with the NKVD handed over documentation regarding the activities of Ukrainian nationalists were common. What Polish police was allowed to act in Volhynia under Soviet occupation ? I'm interested in the original context of this information in the source as I expect this sentence is misplaced in the article. --Lysytalk 15:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- There was no Polish police in Volhynia under the Soviets. All Polish policemen were arrested as soon as the Red Army entered the area, and many of them perished in the Katyn Massacre. I have no idea why this untrue sentence is in the article. Tymek (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please help out with proper references, so we can have that allegation fixed as soon as possible. Thanks in advance. --Poeticbent talk 17:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Recent Changes
The current version seems to changed repeatedly by a Polish user in a way that seems to deliberately cloud issues involving certain Polish actions. With respect to the book Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999, Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-10586-X Google Books, Snyder states that Polish kapos murdered Bandera's brothers. He also stated that In the Chelm region, 394 Ukrainian community leaders were said to have been killed by the Poles on the grounds of Nazi collaboration. An editor unhappy with these facts places "Allegedly" before the first one and a "check" tag after the second, even though the second fact is referenced by the book and page number (it is incidentally in the first paragraph on that page). If we decide to do this kind of thing to facts we don't like, a Ukrainian editor with similar attitudes can just as easily add "alleged" in front of and "check" after any referenced fact about Ukrainian crimes. If a fact is referenced, please leave it alone.Faustian (talk) 11:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- You don’t get it, do you? What upsets me is NOT your source but your blanket reverts wiping out improvements I made, unrelated to the book by Snyder. I can see you didn’t notice reference I fixed earlier to Władysław Filar. You are NOT looking at what you’re doing, and that’s not good. – Going back to the English language. You cannot say that one version only (your version) is the “correct” one (in summaries to your revert war naturally), while in fact the next sentence clearly states that the allegations were DENIED by actual Auschwitz witnesses. I repeat, if the allegations were denied by some witnesses in the camp, than the Bandera brothers were only ALLEGEDLY (English please) the victims of Polish kapos. Snyder is but one source, Devin Owen Pendas (which I provided) is another. --Poeticbent talk 19:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- The source indicated that Polish witnesses denied the involvement of Kral, not the involvement of Polish kapos in general, so based on that source one cannot place allegedly in front of what Snyder says. In another reliable source has something contrary to Polish kapo involvement, then of course allegedly (or some other way of stating that sources differ) would be appropriate. But all that you have provided is a source stating that a t atrial, Polish witnesses denied the involvement of Kral. So I am fixing it to reflect what the sources state.Faustian (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Sticking to what the source says
Please see: [37]. Someone changed the article to state the 100 abandoned churches were converted, which is blatantly not what the source stated. Let's not let nationalism cloud one's edits.Faustian (talk) 23:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
latest changes to the article
Faustian would you stop reshaping this article a bit? your addition of this text: During the German occupation, the Polish government in exile and the Home Army considered that Volhynia would have to be returned to Poland after the war. Polish commanders had explaiwend that this would involve a war against Ukrainians followed by a swift "armed occupation. is useless. It was a very normal situation that the Poles supposed that Volhynia which was a part of Poland occupied by the Nazis would return to Poland, that can hardly be called a "plan". That was some pathetic excuse by the Ukrainian Nationalist to barbarically murder civilians for ethnic cleansing. Loosmark (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- His edit is factual and makes the section more informational and well rounded. Stop pushing your Polish POV against facts.--Львівске (talk) 17:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- what "Polish POV against facts"? Loosmark (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Faustian included cited facts which contributed to the tension among the sides. Your argument is that the part about Poland wanting to make war should be swept under the rug.--Львівске (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- What cited facts, the fact that the Poles normaly expected that their country will be restored as it was before being attacked by the Nazis is a fact that "contributed tension among sides"? Is that an excuse for the mass massacres of civilians? Loosmark (talk) 18:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why would the Poles "expect" that disputed territory be returned to them? Is this assuming Poland won, or what? Wikipedia isn't a place for assumptions. --Львівске (talk) 18:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Because it is a normal that a country which is occupied by a brutal regime expects that it will be restored when the occupation ends. It's as simple as that. Same as for example the French expected that the Basque lands will remain part of France when the Nazis move out. Loosmark (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- In the historical context, there was no assumption than the Nazis would even lose. Second, it was disputed territory by 4 parties, so to assume anything is just ignorant. Third, considering WW2 began due to TOV Polish occupation of German territories, how could Poland expect anything be returned at all?--Львівске (talk) 18:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- WW2 began because of Polish occupation of German territories?!? Jesus, no wonder wikipedia is turning into a joke... Loosmark (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- So if you had it your way, the re-taking of the Polish Corridor should be censored as well? Good grief! --Львівске (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are simply embarrassing. I've seen people arguing all kind of crazy things on wikipedia, but that the WW2 began because of Poland beats everything off. I'm out of words. Loosmark (talk) 19:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Have a sugar coated version of history in Poland or something?--Львівске (talk) 19:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's the version of history accepted in all normal countries, in fact i've never heard of any country having anything different. I'm curious, are people in your country taught in schools that the WW2 started because of Poland? Loosmark (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- WW2 started because Germany invaded Poland, which happened because Poland refused to cede the lands they obtained in the Treaty of Versailles back. Are you denying this fact? This is common knowledge... --Львівске (talk) 19:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- You claimed that the WW2 started due to quote: Polish occupation of German territories. Every country i heard of (including Germany) accepts the truth that war was started because of the Nazis' criminal agressive policies. Are you still claiming that the WW2 started due to something Poland has done? Loosmark (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Name one person who claims that WW2 was started because of "criminal aggressive policies," that's an oversimplistic, biased, revisionist way of putting things. --Львівске (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- The WW2 started because of Hitler and the Nazis. Do you agree with this or not? Loosmark (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree, as it is far too simplistic for such a world changing event. I think it would be more fair to say that WW2 started because of WW1. --Львівске (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Name one person who claims that WW2 was started because of "criminal aggressive policies," that's an oversimplistic, biased, revisionist way of putting things. --Львівске (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- You claimed that the WW2 started due to quote: Polish occupation of German territories. Every country i heard of (including Germany) accepts the truth that war was started because of the Nazis' criminal agressive policies. Are you still claiming that the WW2 started due to something Poland has done? Loosmark (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- WW2 started because Germany invaded Poland, which happened because Poland refused to cede the lands they obtained in the Treaty of Versailles back. Are you denying this fact? This is common knowledge... --Львівске (talk) 19:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's the version of history accepted in all normal countries, in fact i've never heard of any country having anything different. I'm curious, are people in your country taught in schools that the WW2 started because of Poland? Loosmark (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Have a sugar coated version of history in Poland or something?--Львівске (talk) 19:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are simply embarrassing. I've seen people arguing all kind of crazy things on wikipedia, but that the WW2 began because of Poland beats everything off. I'm out of words. Loosmark (talk) 19:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- So if you had it your way, the re-taking of the Polish Corridor should be censored as well? Good grief! --Львівске (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- WW2 began because of Polish occupation of German territories?!? Jesus, no wonder wikipedia is turning into a joke... Loosmark (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- In the historical context, there was no assumption than the Nazis would even lose. Second, it was disputed territory by 4 parties, so to assume anything is just ignorant. Third, considering WW2 began due to TOV Polish occupation of German territories, how could Poland expect anything be returned at all?--Львівске (talk) 18:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Because it is a normal that a country which is occupied by a brutal regime expects that it will be restored when the occupation ends. It's as simple as that. Same as for example the French expected that the Basque lands will remain part of France when the Nazis move out. Loosmark (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Faustian included cited facts which contributed to the tension among the sides. Your argument is that the part about Poland wanting to make war should be swept under the rug.--Львівске (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- what "Polish POV against facts"? Loosmark (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Radek's comments below are factual and ought to be included in the article. The general picture is that Poland wanted to reestablish control over Volhynia, populated by that time (thanks tot he Soviets and Germans) by 8% Poles, and were preparing for a military conflict to establish control. The OUN chose to preempt this in mid-twentieth century fashion by slaughtering and driving out the remaining Poles.Faustian (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Text based on Snyder
The Snyder book is searchable on Amazon: [38]. While the text added to the article is in the book (in fact, it's taken almost verbatim - thus constituting a copy vio) what's left out is the context of the paragraph and some key passages in the Snyder book. Basically the Polish government in Exile entertained the possibility that, after Hitler's attack on Stalin, the Second World War would end in a similar way as the First World War - with mutual exhaustion of Germany and Soviet Union. In this case they believed that fighting between some Ukrainians and Poles was likely to break out and that this was something that Polish forces should prepare for, since they wished to reestablish pre WWII borders. The "armed occupation" part obviously refers to the fact that this imagined state of affairs would require an increased military presence in those regions of pre war Poland where this was more likely. At the same time, the book states, the Polish Government in Exile supported the idea of an independent Ukraine although they wanted it to be established on pre-war Soviet territory. The text further states that this idea of possible war with some Ukrainians in the event of Russian and German exhaustion became stronger after 1943 due to the collaboration of some Ukrainians with the Nazis.
Importantly the text also notes (previous page) that OUN-B THOUGHT EXACTLY THE SAME THING. They also expected an eventual exhaustion of Germany and Soviet Union and afterward a confrontation with the Poles. The difference was that because of this they thought they had to move WHILE WWII was still going on - whereas the Poles where only planning for the future - and this is partly what led to initial actions against Poles in the region.
As it has been entered now, the text in the article does not represent the source in a NPOV, balanced, manner.radek (talk) 21:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- What do you suggest the text be changed to to maintain neutrality? I'm having a hard time seeing any bias for malice in the disputed prelude section as it is.--Львівске (talk) 21:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Radek's intepretation of Snyder is absolutely correct. My question is how, specifically, the included parts violate NPOV.Faustian (talk) 22:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well isn't that clear? You only entered text what the Poles were planning, and nothing about the OUN-B plans making it look like as if the OUN-B massacres were some sort of a reply to something - they weren't, they just wanted to massacre as many civilians as possible to ethnically cleanse the teritory. Loosmark (talk) 11:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- OUN-B plans were preemptive - based on the understanding that Poland would try to retake the territory. As Snyder noted on page 168, "the preemptive strikes against Poles envisioned by the OUN-B were not military operations but ethnic cleansing." Your phrase "they just wanted to massacre as many civilians as possible to ethnically cleanse the territory" is just one POV among many. Although there is no doubt that they wanted to ethnically cleanse the territory, and no doubt that they murdered 10,000s of people in brutal ways, there is considerable controversy among historians whether the murders were themselves an OUN-B goal with respect to the ethnic cleansing, whether they were done on the initiative of the local OUN commanders, etc. The idea that the OUN simply wanted to murder for the enjoyment of it or whatever and that national reasons were merely an excuse has been discredited as the fantasy of Polish nationalists: [39]. Faustian (talk) 13:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly murdering brutaly 10,000s civilians is so sickening that the article should concentrate on that rather than on what the excuses used for the murdering were. After all even the Nazis were killing Jewish people because of "preemptive" reasons but wikipedia doesn't care for their reasons and rightly so. Loosmark (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- The article does concentrate on that. Doing so doesn't mean we ignore underlying causes, one of which is Polish claims on the territory. One source (Snyder) explicitly states that the ethnic cleansing was a preemptive strike by OUN with respect to Polish-Ukrainian conflicts over the territory.Faustian (talk) 15:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly murdering brutaly 10,000s civilians is so sickening that the article should concentrate on that rather than on what the excuses used for the murdering were. After all even the Nazis were killing Jewish people because of "preemptive" reasons but wikipedia doesn't care for their reasons and rightly so. Loosmark (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- OUN-B plans were preemptive - based on the understanding that Poland would try to retake the territory. As Snyder noted on page 168, "the preemptive strikes against Poles envisioned by the OUN-B were not military operations but ethnic cleansing." Your phrase "they just wanted to massacre as many civilians as possible to ethnically cleanse the territory" is just one POV among many. Although there is no doubt that they wanted to ethnically cleanse the territory, and no doubt that they murdered 10,000s of people in brutal ways, there is considerable controversy among historians whether the murders were themselves an OUN-B goal with respect to the ethnic cleansing, whether they were done on the initiative of the local OUN commanders, etc. The idea that the OUN simply wanted to murder for the enjoyment of it or whatever and that national reasons were merely an excuse has been discredited as the fantasy of Polish nationalists: [39]. Faustian (talk) 13:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well isn't that clear? You only entered text what the Poles were planning, and nothing about the OUN-B plans making it look like as if the OUN-B massacres were some sort of a reply to something - they weren't, they just wanted to massacre as many civilians as possible to ethnically cleanse the teritory. Loosmark (talk) 11:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Faustian, I have to respectfully disagree here. As I said before the POV is not in what was included but what was excluded. I will try to come up with something that's more balanced but gimme a bit because this is a sensitive issue and I'm busy with real life stuff. Couple things; Poland did want to "retake" the territories, but they wanted to "retake" them from the Nazis (or Soviets), not from Ukrainians as it is being implied. It's true the OUN-B plans were "preemptive" but that leaves out the fact that they were also "murderous". There isn't that much distance between "ethnic cleansing" and "massacre as many civilians as possible" - so the POV is essentially the same as in Snyder. The "true" motives of OUN-B and whether or not they acted according to a central directive or on (widespread) local initiative are indeed controversial but they don't concern any of the text from Snyder that is being reffed. It IS important that whatever motivations OUN-B had, these are not presented as excuses for the murders which is what I think Loosmark is (in my view, rightly) worried about. Yes, the Polish Government in Exile regarded Volhynia, Galicia and other regions as part of the Polish state and OUN-B didn't - but the fact that the PGiE's goal was reestablishment of Poland in its prewar borders (which is a perfectly normal goal for an exiled government to have) is very much secondary to what the title of this article states this article is about.radek (talk) 15:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I look forward to your corrections and trust, by your comments here, that they will be appropriate. I generally agree with what you are saying. About "retaking" - yes, it was about retaking from the Germans, but it was understood by the Poles that doing so this would involve (as in 1919) taking also from the local Ukrainians who made up the majority of the population, and that doing so would involve an armed conflcit against those local Ukrainians. While we know that the UPA's implementation of its preemptive ethnic cleansing was murderous, it is still controversial about whether its plans were murderous. I agree 100% that the article ought not make excuses for UPA crimes. On the other hand, explanations are absolutely necessary and Polish plans for Volhynia are an important piece explaining UPA's plans that resulted in the massacres in Volhynia.Faustian (talk) 15:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Radek, I don't think it's fair to say that a Polish effort to retake Western Ukraine / this region would be directed only at the Nazis and Soviets. It goes without saying that a Polish military campaign to retake the area, especially if against Ukrainian regiments of the Red Army, would result in significant amount of Ukrainian civilian casualties. How the massacres acted as a preemptive measure are an important factor for understanding why the massacres took place.--Львівске (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- From the text in the source and other sources I think that the PGiE thought that they might have to fight against OUN-B and other possible militias. Whether or not this would involve civilian casualties and how many is just speculation (Original Research) not found in the source.radek (talk) 08:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- And since when to preempt a military campaign you have to slaughter 60.000 to 80.000 civilians, mainly women and children? This is sick logic. Loosmark (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- A Polish campaign to retake this territory would have undoubtedly resulted in significant Ukrainian civilian casualties, no?--Львівске (talk) 16:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- And? Is that a good an excuse to start to mass murder innocent civilians? Loosmark (talk) 16:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Nobody said it was "a good excuse." It was, however, an underlying reason for the events. The elimination of the Polish population would make Polish retaking of Volhynia more difficult and useless (the Polish military would be fighting to gain territory with no Poles living in it).Faustian (talk) 16:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- It's not for anyone here to decide whether it was a just reason or not, but it was in fact a reason and should not be censored to support your POV--Львівске (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are right, nobody here is to decide that because it is already decided: nobody with a sane brain would argue that there could be a "just reason" for murdering so many innocent civilians. Loosmark (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think the key is to explain OUN-B's thinking here (roughly, "if we don't act now, Poles will retake this area later), but be honest about what they thought was a best way to preempt this ("ethnically cleans the Poles from the region, including murdering lots of civilians, while we still have the chance since the Germans will look the other way").radek (talk) 08:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- There clearly needs to be a section about the OUN-B's ideology in the background section, with a redirect to the main page about the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. I will try to work on tht later today if someone else doesn't do so first. A lot of the other background information (about Polish policies, Soviet and German policies) included in the article are important because they explain how the OUN, originally a fringe organization, grew in popularity and was then able to take over a large segment of western Ukrainian society. Without the OUN-B's dominance, it is likely that the massacres would not have occurred or would have been much smaller in scale. It is obvious that the OUN-B's program called for the ethnic cleansing of majorty-Ukrainian inhabited territories. As for the thinking about murdering lots of civilians - there seems little doubt that this was the thinking of many of the local commanders in Volyn. However it is a matter of contention whether this was the goal of the OUN-B itself.Faustian (talk) 13:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think the key is to explain OUN-B's thinking here (roughly, "if we don't act now, Poles will retake this area later), but be honest about what they thought was a best way to preempt this ("ethnically cleans the Poles from the region, including murdering lots of civilians, while we still have the chance since the Germans will look the other way").radek (talk) 08:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are right, nobody here is to decide that because it is already decided: nobody with a sane brain would argue that there could be a "just reason" for murdering so many innocent civilians. Loosmark (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, how about something like this, replacing the present text up to the word "Nevertheless". Note that parts of it are based on Snyder but I rephrased. Also I tried to incorporate Faustian's concern about who was responsible (local commanders vs. HQ - the part in the parentheses is there for clarification and is not necessary). I've also tried to balance the need to explain a "reason" with a descriptive account of what was about to happen, so as not to give an impression that the "reason" is an "excuse". Please comment:
After Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union, both the Polish government in Exile and Ukrainian Nationalists of the OUN-B considered the possibility that in the event of mutual military exhaustion of Germany and the Soviet Union, the region would become a scene of conflict between Poles and Ukrainians. The Polish Government in Exile, which wanted the region returned to Poland, planned for such a possibility as part of its overall plan for a future anti-Nazi uprising. This view was strengthened by some Ukrainian nationalists' collaboration with the Nazis, so that by 1943 no understanding between the Home Army and OUN was possible. On the other hand, OUN-B came to believe that it had to move fast while Germans still controlled the area to preempt future Polish efforts at re-establishing Poland's pre-war borders. The result was that at least local OUN-B commanders in Volyn and Galicia (if not the OUN-B leadership itself) decided that an ethnic cleansing of Poles from the area, through terror and murder, was necessary.
radek (talk) 16:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- I would add something about the fact the the Polish government planned for a 'military action. Otherwise it seems perfect to me. What do you think about the following:
After Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union, both the Polish government in Exile and the Ukrainian Nationalists of the OUN-B considered the possibility that in the event of mutual military exhaustion of Germany and the Soviet Union, the region would become a scene of conflict between Poles and Ukrainians. The Polish Government in Exile, which wanted the region returned to Poland, planned for a swift armed occupation (if the word "occupation" seems POV-ish I'm open to a synonym) of the territory as part of its overall plan for a future anti-Nazi uprising. This view was strengthened by some Ukrainian nationalists' collaboration with the Nazis, so that by 1943 no understanding between the Polish government's Home Army and OUN was possible. On the other hand, the OUN-B came to believe that it had to move fast while the Germans still controlled the area in order to preempt future Polish efforts at re-establishing Poland's pre-war borders. The result was that the local OUN-B commanders in Volyn and Galicia (if not the OUN-B leadership itself) decided that an ethnic cleansing of Poles from the area, through terror and murder, was necessary.
Faustian (talk) 17:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- I don't like the word "occupation" simply because it seems to be implying that the Poles would be "occupying" politically foreign territory whereas it was pre-war Polish territory (and in this context sort of implicitly equivocates it with "Nazi occupation"). I don't know ... "presence"? "control"? Both of these would make the "swift" grammatically incorrect. Looking it up on the Thesaurus [40] maybe something like "swiftly achieved military control"? "military administration"?radek (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Isn't the "through terror and murder" part redundant? Ie; "Germany decided that war with the Poles, through shooting and bombing, was necessary". It kind of goes without saying. --Львівске (talk) 19:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Not really. If I murder somebody and keep it a secret no one else is terrorized. But if I go all Godfather on them and murder them so that everyone knows then everyone will be terrified of me - which might be a goal in and of itself. BTW, I've been in a dispute with a user who was trying to remove refs from the article based precisely on the fact that shooting civilians and bombing civilians is not the same thing (the refs said "strafing" not "bombing"). Wikipedia can get a little pedantic sometimes but it's also good to be precise.radek (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Some of the methods used in Volyn (beheading people, etc.) went beyond "ethnic cleansing" and can be viewed as horrible enough to warrant explicit description. I'm not pushing to have this phrase in, but I don't object to other editors wanting it in; it seems appropriate.Faustian (talk) 19:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Szawlowski as Recommended Reading
He has been discussed on this talk page twice already - here: [41] and here: [42]. Summary: the man is not a historian, but a lawyer. In his works, he makes claims such as barbarity was a Ukrainian cultural tradition, and that Ukrainians were worse than Soviets, who were worse than Germans. he words of Polish historian Rafal Wnuk [43], "The most serious allegations are made by R. Szawlowski. He claims that all Ukrainians inhabiting ethnically-mixed territories are responsible for ethnic crimes against Poles. He considers these crimes crueler than those committed by Germans or Soviets." Szawlowki's work disparages actual historians while praising obvious propagandists such as Wiktor Poliszczuk. It would be inapropriate to draw readers' attention to Szawlowski as a recommended reading for further information. If we go down that road, we might as well throw in some Ukrainian nationalist sources too. There are surely sources that serve as better recommended reading. Specifically, I'm replacing Szawlowski's work as recommended reading with Snyder's Reconstruction of Nations, described by him as "the first scholarly treatment in English of the totality of Polish-Ukrainian ethnic cleansing between 1943 and 1947" (pg. 9).Faustian (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I oppose this deletion, he seems to have researched the events in detail. Loosmark (talk) 15:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- His level of research seems to be irrelevent if it is done in the service of propaganda. Particularly with respect to controversial topics, we ought to very careful about the sources we use and apply the highest standards. A man who concludes the Soviets were worse than Germans, and that Ukrainians were worse than both Soviets and Germans, a man who is a lawyer and not even a historian, whose works contain a lot of attacks on legitimate historians, falls far below that standard.Faustian (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- According to source presented above he did not say that the Ukrainians were worse than both the Soviets and the Germans but rather He considers these crimes crueler than those committed by Germans or Soviets. Yes it can be argued that what he wrote is wrong but frankly if you read the describtions of the crimes in Volhynia by some people who managed to escape, it is completely sickening. Loosmark (talk) 15:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- His level of research seems to be irrelevent if it is done in the service of propaganda. Particularly with respect to controversial topics, we ought to very careful about the sources we use and apply the highest standards. A man who concludes the Soviets were worse than Germans, and that Ukrainians were worse than both Soviets and Germans, a man who is a lawyer and not even a historian, whose works contain a lot of attacks on legitimate historians, falls far below that standard.Faustian (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
All one-sided, biased nationalist propaganda needs to be removed. All of it. It's the major problem with both this and the UPA article and if deleting this guy is a step in the right direction then it needs to be done now and kept out forever.--Львівске (talk) 16:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Lvivskie try to understand Polish point of view. For Polish UPA are killers. About 150 thousands victims - this is huge number. Events from the past will not justify genocide.--Paweł5586 (talk) 11:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Pawel, understand that the article must maintain a neutral point of view.--Львівске (talk) 19:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see Szawlowski as recommended reading in the article, did you already take it out (I'm fine with taking him out of any recommended reading section - I dislike these section generally anyway)? He is mentioned as having written a foreword to a book that is used as a source but my understanding here is that the actual article that is being used as ref was written by other researchers. I don't think that this disqualifies the use of the book as a source - particularly since sometimes in these kinds of volumes it's the publisher that decides on the forward writer and the contributors don't have a say or opinion on that - though if you want to remove the mention of his forward from the citation that's fine.radek (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Interesting Background Material
Describes violent Polish anti-Ukrainian "pogroms" in the 1930's:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/comment13.htm
Ought to be briefly integrated into the article.Faustian (talk) 22:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Stop making things up, there were no pogroms. The situation of the Ukrainian minority in Poland between the wars wasn't perfect but the situation was similar in all multiethnical countries in Europe at the time. Loosmark (talk) 23:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- "The most widespread and intense violence took place in the anti-Ukrainian pogroms of 1934-1938. For this, alas, we do not need to rely on Polish or Ukrainian accounts alone. Monsignor Dr. Philippe Cortesi, the Papal Nuncio in Warsaw, condemned the violence in a private letter to the Polish Minister of Internal Affairs regarding just one such event of 2-3 November 1938. Polish members of the 'En-De' ('National Democracy', a militant Polish patriotic-nationalist organization) attacked Ukrainian students in their dormitories in Warsaw, unhindered by Polish police who stood by watching the brutal violence, and who waited until the end of the riots to arrest Ukrainian students for disturbing the peace. Several Ukrainian institutes were attacked, with the subsequent "destruction of everything that falls into the hands of the aggressors." A Ukrainian shop was destroyed when Polish "nationalist fanatics" set fire to the interior and then hurled a screaming young Ukrainian woman into the flames. The worst violence occurred at the Ukrainian Catholic seminary, located a mere 200 meters from the central office of the Polish state police. In the Polish crowd's iconoclastic rage, irreparable damage was done to the interior of the Ukrainian church, where icons were defiled and a priceless portrait of St. Peter destroyed. The seminary was ravaged as the angry Polish crowd systematically broke apart furniture and hurled the pieces through broken windows to the streets below. In all, at least eight Ukrainians were hospitalized with serious injuries, and two were killed. Consistent with its usual policy, the official Polish press remained mysteriously silent about such incidents. And wherever possible, the Polish police confiscated and suppressed Ukrainian underground newspapers and publications where the incidents were discussed."
The author also uses the word "genocide" to refer to the events discussed in this article. The author also describes this incident as "the worst violence". "Pogrom" is an unfortunate choice of words here (as is perhaps "genocide").radek (talk) 23:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- By worst violence he meant in reference to the events of 2-3 November 1938. The author is clearly a reliable source here is his CV: [44] and this review was apparently published by Harvard.Faustian (talk) 23:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we should also include the information in the article that the Ukrainian terrorists murdered the Polish minister of interior in June 1934. Loosmark (talk) 23:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why not? The assassination of Holowko is already in the article. I hope you're not suggesting that assassinating the interior minister in 1934 justifies throwing a screaming Ukrainian woman into a fire in 1938. I hope you're not using OUN-B logic.Faustian (talk) 23:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the seconf world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 77
- ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 79
- ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 85
- ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 90 (from Krakowski visti #29, 17 April, 1940 p. 4)
- ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 91