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:Done. My apologies again for that whole mess. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&type=revision&diff=765864541&oldid=765350838 Here] is the diff of what I ''actually'' meant to edit/revert, without messing with the other changes and corrections since the lead was altered. Please let me know if you still have concerns on the ancap-back-to-anarchist undo. I'll apply it again, if there's no objections. Thanks! [[User:Finx|fi]] ([[User talk:Finx|talk]]) 21:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC) |
:Done. My apologies again for that whole mess. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&type=revision&diff=765864541&oldid=765350838 Here] is the diff of what I ''actually'' meant to edit/revert, without messing with the other changes and corrections since the lead was altered. Please let me know if you still have concerns on the ancap-back-to-anarchist undo. I'll apply it again, if there's no objections. Thanks! [[User:Finx|fi]] ([[User talk:Finx|talk]]) 21:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC) |
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: The SEP defines "self-ownership" as a position shared by both right and left-wing libertarians, and the debate is, if I understand it correctly, that some, ''but not all'' left-libertarians share that concept, thus it should be removed. Wouldn't such an attribution ("some left-libertarians") or similar be satisfactory? If not, I suggest either searching for sources that specify that it is not a concept shared by all left-libertarians (as far as I understand it there are some in the self-ownership article, I did not check) or starting an RfC for consensus. Until then, my suggestion is to leave the term in the lead (i.e. modify the current revision) and add the SEP as a source (it is, after all, what a reliable source says). As for "rule of law" only CATO seems to mention it. CATO is a right-wing libertarian website and is clearly describing that group (see "free markets", etc). The debate, as far as I understand it, is that this concept is not shared by left-libertarians. So if "rule of law" is to be kept it should be attributed to right-wing libertarians. Would that be a satisfactory compromise, {{ping|Finx}} {{ping|IWillBuildTheRoads}}? If not, then either a source should be found that says it's shared between everyone or it should not be added at all (i.e. the current revision should not be changed in this regard). That is my take on it in terms of policy, hopefully the proposed compromises will be satisfactory, though. [[User:Saturnalia0|Saturnalia0]] ([[User talk:Saturnalia0|talk]]) 17:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC) |
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FAQ
I just noticed that LuckyLag360 added his personal description of Center-libertarianism to the FAQ. I'm going to remove that for two reasons: Firstly, it's not based on any reliable sources (see also above), and secondly there is no indication there actually are frequently asked questions about Center-libertarianism. Huon (talk) 20:42, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- took you long enough to realize that it was added. The funny thing is that add was approved by another admin, might wanna get a consensus on this before you remove that to. LuckyLag360 (talk) 21:29, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- And who was that admin who approved it? We can ping them and ask them whether they have a problem with the removal. Huon (talk) 21:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure LuckyLag360 (talk) 22:26, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- And who was that admin who approved it? We can ping them and ask them whether they have a problem with the removal. Huon (talk) 21:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Libertarian possibilism unreliable source
Libertarian possibilism has a broken source[1] that is unreliable and does not verify anything in its sentence. it should be removed or fixed. LuckyLag360 (talk) 21:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Source was fixed but it has no mention of Libertarian Possibilism, which is what its sourced for. LuckyLag360 (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- Page 16-22. Article "Possibilisme libertaire".--Eduen (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
- Just a heads up Libertaire means Liberty in English not Libertarian. Steelstarz (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
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Why do we have an article that focuses on taxonomy of Libertarianism variants?
I created my account just now so that I could weigh in with opinion of this article. Please forgive me if I'm breaking rules that I do not yet understand.
Libertarianism is essentially Classical Liberalism, and the word "Libertarian" is used to avoid confusion with modern American liberalism. If something rejects most of the principles of Classical Liberalism then is it really Libertarianism? Even if you can find something to site, is there value in mentioning obscure, contrived ideas that detract from the basic tenets of Libertarianism?
In a short video, Nigel Ashford of Institute for Humane Studies explains the tenets of classical liberalism on which most classical libertarians agree. Bob Weeks summarizes those basic tenets: Liberty, Individualism, Skepticism about power, Rule of law, Civil society, Spontaneous order, Free markets, Toleration, Peace, and Limited government. (IHS video included) [2]
Sources to consider: http://www.learnliberty.org, http://www.cato.org, http://theihs.org
References
- ^ http://archivesautonomies.org/IMG/pdf/anarchismes/noiretrouge/NR-n41.pdf
- ^ Weeks, Bob. "Classical liberalism means liberty, individualism, and civil society". Voice for Liberty in Wichita. Retrieved 2016-12-22.
- I think this may be what happens sometimes when you get a contentious topic. Labeling the variants provides a place for "advocates" to say their piece, leaving alone the question of who really "owns" the main topic word. A similar problem exists because of the tension among various styles of anarchism.
- This is not ideal, but it may be easier to maintain than a completely neutral description that somehow tries to reconcile or paper over the disagreements between factions.
- Look at the FAQ posted at the head of this talk page for some examples of how some people may disagree with your formulation. Is "extol" the right word? —jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 00:20, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
I agree, that article seems to spend lots of time describing different branches of libertarianism, and not enough of the libertarian philosophy/ideology. When most people think libertarian, they think of right-libertarianism (which is similar to classical liberalism). But, a reader of the article would think that socialists ideologies are a bigger part of the movement than they actually are. The article only explains the non-aggression principle a few times, despite being the defining fundamental value of libertarianism (it should be explained more). Although it's not great, jmcgnh gives good reasons for why there's not much we can do about it. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 06:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Recent edits
@Finx:, thanks for your edits. I am reverting some parts that were not explained in the edit summaries and that I believe require an explanation. Care to provide a rationale in terms of policy for these changes? I'm listing them in my edit summaries and will copy the diffs here once it's done. Hopefully we can agree on what should be incorporated or not. 1. Ref removal 2. Wikilink removal and reordering I also fixed a missing space between words and a wrong wikilink. Saturnalia0 (talk) 20:19, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- Sure. As far as I can tell, the only reversion needing explanation is the change from "anarcho-capitalist" back to "anarchist" - right? I don't think I introduced the errors you corrected, but my apologies if I had. So, I tried to explain in the edit summaries but I can expand here. I think pretty much everything below is already cited in the article.
- The historic anarchist movement, which is a branch of the socialist movement, has always called for abolition of state
- On the other hand, "minarchists" (who are advocates for laissez-faire capitalism) wish to maintain it reduce it to a night-watchman state
- The historic anarchist movement is the origin of "libertarian" as a political label; the anarchist communist Joseph Dejacque coined the term
- The obscure, mostly American phenomenon born in the 1970s called "anarcho-capitalism" is a far-fringe outgrowth of laissez-faire/neoliberal politics – which also calls for abolition of state and considers itself a form of anarchism
- Anarcho-capitalism, of course, is wholly rejected by the entire historic anarchist movement as a form of anarchism, since - again - anarchism has always been anti-capitalist
- So, it really doesn't seem to make any sense to refer to something so irrelevant that it barely merited two sentences in the article on anarchism as if it were the most relevant form of anarchism, particularly for this article, if indeed you want to call it a form of anarchism at all. fi (talk) 20:55, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- Looking back at the other changes, I may have inadvertently reverted more than I meant to do. I intended only to undo some changes to the lead: the exclusively propertarian additions, the ancap bits and the clunky wording. I'm not sure how the sections below got reordered back to the way they were before. Seems like a pretty trivial detail and I don't really care which comes first, personally. I hope I didn't mess up any other corrections in the process. Apologies on that. fi (talk) 21:17, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- You need to explain why you're removing sourced material from the lead. This is what all reliable sources say on libertarianism, and Wikipedia can only say what reliable sources say (WP:RS). What exclusively propertatian additions, anarcho-capitalist bits, and clunky wording are you referring to in the lead? If you let me know, I can try to fix those. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 11:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- Reliable sources like Woodcock describe traditional anticapitalist anarchism, and reliable sources cited on the term's history point to a 19th century anarcho-communist coining the label in the sense that is the topic of this article. Is it you position that anarchists base their philosophy on "rule of law"? Or perhaps that communists start from a position of "self-ownership"? Could you please provide a reliable source for either of those claims? I rather doubt it, as those are liberal concepts. If you don't have reliable sources saying otherwise, they don't belong in the lead, and neither does anarcho-capitalism, specifically – or at least not any more than anarchist primitivism, for another fringe example that's barely relevant to the topic. The lead needs to address all major "libertarian" camps, instead of pretending like neoliberal ideologies own the label. fi (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- But, this isn't an article on anarchism, this is an article on libertarianism (I understand that the terms have some overlap). The first paragraph of the lead doesn't even mention anarchism, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. Citing the first usage of the term in political contexts is an etymological fallacy. Just because the first political ussage was by a communist, doesn't mean the contemporary meaning of the word has anything to do with communism (and this is supported by reliable sources). It is not my assumption that libertarians base their philosophy on the rule of law. It is what the reliable sources say on the matter. We have to say what the reliable sources say, and nothing more. I cannot provide a reliable source to the claim that communists start from a position of self-ownership, because I never stated it. Anarcho-capitalism wasn't mentioned in the first paragraph of the lead, so I don't know why you keep mentioning it. The lead just needs to make the main points that are affirmed by the reliable sources. You still haven't explained why you're removing reliably sourced material, and you haven't answered by question about the supposed clunky wording, ancap bits, and propertarian additions (or why that's even relevant to its removal). IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 18:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's very simple, if you elect to read the actual article, which I strongly suspect you have not done. "Anarchist," for over one and a half centuries, had meant the same thing as "libertarian" – referring to socialists, largely communists; "anarcho-capitalist" had not. "Anarcho-capitalism" is very marginally related to this topic. If you want to write an article exclusively dedicated to the last several decades of US neoliberalism and its fringiest outgrowths, there's plenty of articles for that. This is not one. fi (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're talking about, but you've made it clear that you're not talking about the first paragraph of the lead. Thus, I'm reverting it back to the version before the violations of WP:NPOV and rejections of WP:RS took place. If you have any further objections, please start a new discussion on the talk page. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 19:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- "I don't know what you're talking about" – yeah, this is a problem, per WP:COMPETENCE, which is actually the one policy I see applicable here, assuming good faith. You should familiarize yourself with the article until you know what I'm talking about. If, on the other hand, you do understand why communists and anarchists belong to the umbrella of libertarianism, let me know if I can help explain why communists and anarchists are not defined as exponents of liberal concepts, like self-ownership and rule of law. fi (talk) 05:25, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm familiar with the article, and I understand the terminology. I frankly don't care what communists and anarchists support. I care about what the reliable sources (WP:RS) say about the subject and nothing more. I said "I don't know what you're talking about" because I repeatedly asked you questions and (IMO) refuted your points, but you never addressed them. You responded with a long paragraph about anarcho-capitalism, and other things not mentioned in the lead. When I pointed out that you were missing the point, you only responded with another irrelevant long paragraph. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 03:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Re: "I frankly don't care what communists and anarchists support." – Then this is not the article for you. I suggest you go edit articles where you care about the subject matter in the title. You didn't refute anything and if you think what I said was irrelevant, then you're still having trouble understanding the basic concepts – perhaps because you don't care about them. fi (talk) 12:11, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm familiar with the article, and I understand the terminology. I frankly don't care what communists and anarchists support. I care about what the reliable sources (WP:RS) say about the subject and nothing more. I said "I don't know what you're talking about" because I repeatedly asked you questions and (IMO) refuted your points, but you never addressed them. You responded with a long paragraph about anarcho-capitalism, and other things not mentioned in the lead. When I pointed out that you were missing the point, you only responded with another irrelevant long paragraph. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 03:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'll try to expand on this to hopefully make it clearer, as I'm now being accused of disruptive and unconstructive editing by the user above, despite doing my best to explain the edit – or rather the revert to the previous, long-standing wording of the lead. As explained by the FAQ above and the actual contents of the article, Wikipedia editors have decided to dedicate this article to libertarianism as an umbrella term, for all political philosophies going by that name. This includes both the right wing, neoliberal philosophies going by this name (mainly in the US) since the late 20th century and the socialists that have been going by this name since the mid 19th century. CATO's definition of libertarian is indeed true for CATO's brand of libertarianism; however, CATO does not represent traditional socialist anarchism or anarchist communism or libertarian Marxism. It represents the right-wing ideologies that call themselves libertarian. Attributing "rule of law" to anarchists or "self-ownership" to communists is akin to starting the lead with "libertarians advocate abolition of private property and capital." While this is very obviously well sourced and uncontroversially true for socialist libertarians, it clearly does not apply to the right-wing libertarians described below. Now that we've established that CATO, among other right wing advocacy groups, does not own the word libertarian, consider how self-ownership and rule of law applies to anarchists/communists. Might certain communists conceivably agree with some formulation of "self-ownership" that's sufficiently dissimilar from the way that it's used by right-wing libertarians? Sure, and I can think of a few examples. Do some anarchists act in defense of "rule of law" in the context of states and liberal capitalist society? Absolutely. Are these political camps defined as exponents of either one? Not at all. They want a radical transformation of society that's neither based on propertarian precepts nor governed by states or state laws. I would hope we have sufficient citations in the article already to establish that anarchists have a few teensy objections to states, um, existing. Let's try and read past the first two sentences of the article and take a short glance at the FAQ before making ambitious edits that don't make a lick of sense. fi (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- You did not do your absolute best to explain the edit. In addition to what I said in my post above about your discussion on the talk page, you also provided no edit summary for your reversions. When I reverted your reversion, I mentioned that there was no reason given for the reversion. Once again, you reverted it with no edit summary. You didn't even remotely try to explain the edit. That's not me assuming bad faith, that's just me pointing out that you did not give a reason for the reversion. This combined with the fact that the edit removes reliably sourced material is why I left a disruptive editing warning on your talk page. The CATO Institute is not the only citation given. There are four citations from reliable sources given about the definition and key ideas of libertarianism. They all point to what is discussed in the lead paragraph I have been advocating. If you need further proof, I'll give you a fifth source. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is certainly a reliable source, says "Second, in addition to the better-known version of libertarianism—right-libertarianism—there is also a version known as 'left-libertarianism'. Both endorse full self-ownership, but they differ with respect to the powers agents have to appropriate unowned natural resources (land, air, water, minerals, etc.)." [emphasis added] They acknowledge left-libertarianism (which I have been trying to do aswell), and still mention that all libertarians still support self-ownership. I don't care one iota about your analyses about left-libertarian thought in these talk pages. Per Wikipedia's guidelines (WP:OR and WP:RS), I only care about what the reliable sources say on the matter. Even so, I have attempted to keep the lead paragraph compatible with left-libertarianism. For example, I removed "free markets" from the lead because it's a propertarian idea even though most reliable sources say it's a key aspect of libertarianism. So, all propertarian parts of the lead are removed, unless you consider self-ownership to be propertarian. But, even the SEP acknowledges that self-ownership is still a key aspect of left- and right-libertarianism. So, the argument is moot at this point. I concede that we could remove the rule of law. It's pretty important for libertarians IMO, but may not be necessary for the lead. You still need to explain why you're removing sourced material. Can you also explain what "anarcho-capitalist bits" and "clunky wording" are in the lead because I could try to fix them. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- Re: "you also provided no edit summary for your reversions" – This is false. I provided edit summaries. As far as the definition of libertarianism, I've explained all I can. It's not on you to keep the lead "compatible" with "left-libertarianism"; the lead should simply state the facts instead of making things up by selectively pointing to definitions of right-wing libertarianism. I hope this is clear enough. We have plenty of sources which say libertarians want to abolish private property – Woodcock made no mention of US neoliberalism, for example. And yet, all except you are capable of understanding why those sources don't describe the USLP. fi (talk) 12:11, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- And regarding the SEP, which I never removed as a citation, the "left-libertarianism" it describes is obviously not the same libertarianism as, say, Joseph Dejacque's anarcho-communism. Notice, for example, how the SEP page makes zero mentions of socialism, even though anarchism is a branch of the socialist movement. This is similar to another source in the lead listing, "right-libertarianism," (relative) "left-libertarianism" and "libertarian socialism" as a separate category, in the author's context. That's because the topic of these pieces is Nozick and Locke, and the relative "left" and "right" in terms of the "libertarianism" introduced to the US in the late 20th century. To borrow a cited quote from the lead of the self-ownership article: "Anarchism shares with liberalism a radical commitment to individual freedom while rejecting liberalism's competitive property relations." In other words, if you want to charge anarchists with being committed to self ownership at all (which is a poorly sourced claim in the first place – probably because anarchists tend not to base autonomy on terms denoting property), or other liberal values, you'd have to qualify that their interpretation of those concepts will usually differ radically from the liberals'. The "left-libertarians" mentioned in the article on self-ownership (like Hillel Steiner, Peter Vallentyne, Philippe Van Parijs, Michael Otsuka, and David Ellerman) belong to the same relative left; they are neither traditional (socialist) anarchists, nor socialists broadly. They're not advocating for the abolition of wages, capital and private property. Instead, at their leftiest and most radical, they make essentially reformist arguments for (I quote) "income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources." fi (talk) 13:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- You did not do your absolute best to explain the edit. In addition to what I said in my post above about your discussion on the talk page, you also provided no edit summary for your reversions. When I reverted your reversion, I mentioned that there was no reason given for the reversion. Once again, you reverted it with no edit summary. You didn't even remotely try to explain the edit. That's not me assuming bad faith, that's just me pointing out that you did not give a reason for the reversion. This combined with the fact that the edit removes reliably sourced material is why I left a disruptive editing warning on your talk page. The CATO Institute is not the only citation given. There are four citations from reliable sources given about the definition and key ideas of libertarianism. They all point to what is discussed in the lead paragraph I have been advocating. If you need further proof, I'll give you a fifth source. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is certainly a reliable source, says "Second, in addition to the better-known version of libertarianism—right-libertarianism—there is also a version known as 'left-libertarianism'. Both endorse full self-ownership, but they differ with respect to the powers agents have to appropriate unowned natural resources (land, air, water, minerals, etc.)." [emphasis added] They acknowledge left-libertarianism (which I have been trying to do aswell), and still mention that all libertarians still support self-ownership. I don't care one iota about your analyses about left-libertarian thought in these talk pages. Per Wikipedia's guidelines (WP:OR and WP:RS), I only care about what the reliable sources say on the matter. Even so, I have attempted to keep the lead paragraph compatible with left-libertarianism. For example, I removed "free markets" from the lead because it's a propertarian idea even though most reliable sources say it's a key aspect of libertarianism. So, all propertarian parts of the lead are removed, unless you consider self-ownership to be propertarian. But, even the SEP acknowledges that self-ownership is still a key aspect of left- and right-libertarianism. So, the argument is moot at this point. I concede that we could remove the rule of law. It's pretty important for libertarians IMO, but may not be necessary for the lead. You still need to explain why you're removing sourced material. Can you also explain what "anarcho-capitalist bits" and "clunky wording" are in the lead because I could try to fix them. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- "I don't know what you're talking about" – yeah, this is a problem, per WP:COMPETENCE, which is actually the one policy I see applicable here, assuming good faith. You should familiarize yourself with the article until you know what I'm talking about. If, on the other hand, you do understand why communists and anarchists belong to the umbrella of libertarianism, let me know if I can help explain why communists and anarchists are not defined as exponents of liberal concepts, like self-ownership and rule of law. fi (talk) 05:25, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're talking about, but you've made it clear that you're not talking about the first paragraph of the lead. Thus, I'm reverting it back to the version before the violations of WP:NPOV and rejections of WP:RS took place. If you have any further objections, please start a new discussion on the talk page. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 19:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have no objection to the current "anarchists and anarcho-capitalists" wording, even though one could argue that there's a problem with giving "anarcho-capitalists" that much weight. fi (talk) 01:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- It's very simple, if you elect to read the actual article, which I strongly suspect you have not done. "Anarchist," for over one and a half centuries, had meant the same thing as "libertarian" – referring to socialists, largely communists; "anarcho-capitalist" had not. "Anarcho-capitalism" is very marginally related to this topic. If you want to write an article exclusively dedicated to the last several decades of US neoliberalism and its fringiest outgrowths, there's plenty of articles for that. This is not one. fi (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- But, this isn't an article on anarchism, this is an article on libertarianism (I understand that the terms have some overlap). The first paragraph of the lead doesn't even mention anarchism, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. Citing the first usage of the term in political contexts is an etymological fallacy. Just because the first political ussage was by a communist, doesn't mean the contemporary meaning of the word has anything to do with communism (and this is supported by reliable sources). It is not my assumption that libertarians base their philosophy on the rule of law. It is what the reliable sources say on the matter. We have to say what the reliable sources say, and nothing more. I cannot provide a reliable source to the claim that communists start from a position of self-ownership, because I never stated it. Anarcho-capitalism wasn't mentioned in the first paragraph of the lead, so I don't know why you keep mentioning it. The lead just needs to make the main points that are affirmed by the reliable sources. You still haven't explained why you're removing reliably sourced material, and you haven't answered by question about the supposed clunky wording, ancap bits, and propertarian additions (or why that's even relevant to its removal). IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 18:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- Reliable sources like Woodcock describe traditional anticapitalist anarchism, and reliable sources cited on the term's history point to a 19th century anarcho-communist coining the label in the sense that is the topic of this article. Is it you position that anarchists base their philosophy on "rule of law"? Or perhaps that communists start from a position of "self-ownership"? Could you please provide a reliable source for either of those claims? I rather doubt it, as those are liberal concepts. If you don't have reliable sources saying otherwise, they don't belong in the lead, and neither does anarcho-capitalism, specifically – or at least not any more than anarchist primitivism, for another fringe example that's barely relevant to the topic. The lead needs to address all major "libertarian" camps, instead of pretending like neoliberal ideologies own the label. fi (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- You need to explain why you're removing sourced material from the lead. This is what all reliable sources say on libertarianism, and Wikipedia can only say what reliable sources say (WP:RS). What exclusively propertatian additions, anarcho-capitalist bits, and clunky wording are you referring to in the lead? If you let me know, I can try to fix those. IWillBuildTheRoads (talk) 11:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to try to redo my revert correctly without changing the parts I assume you wanted to discuss. fi (talk) 21:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- Done. My apologies again for that whole mess. Here is the diff of what I actually meant to edit/revert, without messing with the other changes and corrections since the lead was altered. Please let me know if you still have concerns on the ancap-back-to-anarchist undo. I'll apply it again, if there's no objections. Thanks! fi (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- The SEP defines "self-ownership" as a position shared by both right and left-wing libertarians, and the debate is, if I understand it correctly, that some, but not all left-libertarians share that concept, thus it should be removed. Wouldn't such an attribution ("some left-libertarians") or similar be satisfactory? If not, I suggest either searching for sources that specify that it is not a concept shared by all left-libertarians (as far as I understand it there are some in the self-ownership article, I did not check) or starting an RfC for consensus. Until then, my suggestion is to leave the term in the lead (i.e. modify the current revision) and add the SEP as a source (it is, after all, what a reliable source says). As for "rule of law" only CATO seems to mention it. CATO is a right-wing libertarian website and is clearly describing that group (see "free markets", etc). The debate, as far as I understand it, is that this concept is not shared by left-libertarians. So if "rule of law" is to be kept it should be attributed to right-wing libertarians. Would that be a satisfactory compromise, @Finx: @IWillBuildTheRoads:? If not, then either a source should be found that says it's shared between everyone or it should not be added at all (i.e. the current revision should not be changed in this regard). That is my take on it in terms of policy, hopefully the proposed compromises will be satisfactory, though. Saturnalia0 (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)