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*I'm fine with whatever consensus we develop with regards to the "best known for" phrase, provided that it's civil and not edit-warring (speaking of which, I'll hold back on editing the lead myself until the [[WP:ANEW]] thread is dealt with). I would tend to support its inclusion if we can find a source to support it. If we can't, I'll see how else I can reword it without the phrase; "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer who co-founded Wikipedia."? That could work if we can't find a source for "best-known", but it just doesn't seem as engaging to me. (Then again, Wikipedia's not an action novel, so we shouldn't be sacrificing truth and verifiability for pizzazz.) EDIT: How about "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer. Along with [[Jimmy Wales]] he co-founded the online encyclopedia Wikipedia."? It would also make who the other co-founder was clearer. – [[User:John M Wolfson|John M Wolfson]] ([[User talk:John M Wolfson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/John M Wolfson|contribs]]) 05:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC) |
*I'm fine with whatever consensus we develop with regards to the "best known for" phrase, provided that it's civil and not edit-warring (speaking of which, I'll hold back on editing the lead myself until the [[WP:ANEW]] thread is dealt with). I would tend to support its inclusion if we can find a source to support it. If we can't, I'll see how else I can reword it without the phrase; "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer who co-founded Wikipedia."? That could work if we can't find a source for "best-known", but it just doesn't seem as engaging to me. (Then again, Wikipedia's not an action novel, so we shouldn't be sacrificing truth and verifiability for pizzazz.) EDIT: How about "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer. Along with [[Jimmy Wales]] he co-founded the online encyclopedia Wikipedia."? It would also make who the other co-founder was clearer. – [[User:John M Wolfson|John M Wolfson]] ([[User talk:John M Wolfson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/John M Wolfson|contribs]]) 05:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC) |
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**There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 05:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC) |
**There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 05:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC) |
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***That's fair enough. I think there should be a section on the founder drama (and there already is under "Origins of Wikipedia" if I'm not mistaken), but there's no reason to bring it up in the lead, especially if this is to become an [[WP:FAC|FAC]] as I would like it to be someday. – [[User:John M Wolfson|John M Wolfson]] ([[User talk:John M Wolfson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/John M Wolfson|contribs]]) 05:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:46, 28 June 2019
Larry Sanger was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Everipedia, blockchain, Larry Sanger
"Larry Sanger joins Everipedia to put encyclopedias on the blockchain" – Sanger has been in web news this past week. See web search. ––A Fellow Editor– 11:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Everipedia
Sanger has joined Everipedia. Someone should add that fact to this article. [1] 82.15.199.219 (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
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Quote from original creator of Wikipedia
"Neutrality is important because it supports independent judgment. It is only independent judgment that can be properly scientific. If you want to force the minds of your readers, then you're just being another flavor of dogmatist," Sanger wrote on his Wikipedia talk page on December 22, 2017. We can add this to the article. It is a self-published primary source. Thoughts. QuackGuru (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2017
Revert most recent edit by Javnwekjkkji9. 2602:306:3357:BA0:D5B2:E302:AB85:EC2E (talk) 18:29, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia's article on Wikipedia
If one goes to Wikipedia's own article on Wikipedia and looks through its history, one will see that the page was created by Larry Sanger. Does anybody think that Sanger's role in creating the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia could go in this article on Sanger? Vorbee (talk) 17:21, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
- The edit history of all content on Wikipedia was purged in the early days. We don't know who started that article. QuackGuru (talk) 02:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Failed verification
Lawrence Mark Sanger (/ˈsæŋər/;[1] born July 16, 1968[failed verification]) is an American Internet project developer, co-founder of Wikipedia, and the founder of Citizendium.[2][3][4]
The sources at the end of the sentence failed to verify July 16, 1968. See WP:FAILEDVERIFICATION. Also see MOS:LEADCITE: "The lead must conform to verifiability, biographies of living persons, and other policies." Content that fails verification does not conform to Verifiability policy. QuackGuru (talk) 16:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
We are done here per policy. QuackGuru (talk) 13:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
See WP:FAILEDVERIFICATION: "Material that fails verification may be tagged with {{failed verification}} or removed. When using templates to tag material, it is helpful to other editors if you explain your rationale in the template, edit summary, or on the talk page." I explained my rationale based on policy in my edit summary and here on the talk page.
See MOS:CITELEAD "The lead must conform to verifiability, biographies of living persons, and other policies." How could failed verification content conform to Verifiability policy? Does Verifiability policy allow for failed verification content?
This edit does not address that the content fails verification. Stating "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body [...] editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead" - there are enough citations in the lead, and the DOB is not particularly controversial or contentious. the cite in the early life section is sufficient, and the lead merely repeats that date"[2] does not address that the content fails verification. The claim "should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead" suggests the citation is redundant but when other citations at the end of the sentence do not verify the claim it can't be redundant. If the citation was redundant then another citation in the first sentence would also verify the claim. The claim "there are enough citations in the lead" does not mean other citations at the end of the sentence verify the claim. Other citations at the end of the sentence do not verify the claim. I can't think of any policy based argument for content to fail verification. The easiest way to resolve the issue would be to restore the non-redundant citation. QuackGuru (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Co-founder dispute
"best known for being the co-founder of Wikipedia" That's patently nonsense. He is the co-founder. The weasel words are nonsensical. For a controversial article citations definitely belong in the lede. Replacing sourced content with unsourced or not verifiable content confirms citations are best for the lede for this article. QuackGuru (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Best known for" is not in of itself a weasel word (see WP:BKFIP, etc.), and I do not dispute that he is in fact the co-founder of Wikipedia (nor does anybody other than Jimbo, if I'm not mistaken.) I apologize for any misunderstanding, but I'm trying to streamline the lead to be less cluttered and more encyclopedic (with the ultimate aim of taking this to WP:FAC, a process Sanger founded). You're right that WP:LEADCITE doesn't outright prohibit citations in the lead, but they're unnecessary in this article IMO, and LEADCITE notes that
Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material.
I left the citations for stuff like his pronunciation which are not covered in the lead, but I don't think the rest are necessary, given that Sanger isn't that controversial outside of Wikipedia, and I attempted to address intra-Wikipedia controversy in the lead. My statements were only reworded versions of those already in the lead, which should have already been in the body. here is my version of the lead for reference when consensus wants to develop. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- The citation does not verify "best known for being". The wording does dispute whether Sanger is the co-founder. Please do not add content that is not verifiable. When an editor adds content that fails verification that means citations should stay in the lede. Please don't bring up the co-founder dispute to Wikipedia articles. Please don't try to gain consensus for disputing Sanger is the co-founder. QuackGuru (talk) 07:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I do not agree that "best known for" casts doubt onto his being the co-founder, as it's not something to the effect of "who claims to be", "alleged", etc. However, you do have a point that it might be otherwise problematic with verification. Would you be willing to accept the rest of my work on the lead if I reword it to remove that phrase? If not I can ask for a third opinion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- You have shown citations are needed. Please do not remove citations from this lede, especially when you are replacing sourced content with misleading and bias content against a living person. I can't easily check verification without the citations remaining in the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 07:32, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- Generally speaking if something is in the lead it should already be in the body. You can check for verification there, therefore lead citations are generally an unnecessary clutter. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- See "In addition to his work on Wikipedia..." The source that was close by did not verify this part. QuackGuru (talk) 07:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is a transition in prose that does not need a citation per WP:SKYBLUE, IMO. I see we are at a bit of an impasse here, so I have sought a third opinion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- See again "In addition to his work on Wikipedia..." The source that was close by did not verify this part. You did not acknowledge you added unsourced content. There is a lot more unsourced new content. See "Interested in online learning early on...". No source verifies this claim.
- See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_underkill#Citations_in_the_lead
- See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Why_most_sentences_should_be_cited
- How come you are replacing sourced content with content that is not verifiable with any source? I can't check for verification anywhere when you are adding new content without a citation. Do you agree you won't add new content that is unsourced? QuackGuru (talk) 07:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was only trying to reword content that was already in the body, I apologize if I inadvertently introduced anything new. Let's see how the third opinion goes. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 08:03, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- The more I look the more problems I found. See "His relationship to Wikipedia has been rocky; he has attempted to found several websites to rival Wikipedia..." That is bias and misleading. There was an inaccurate statement about child pornography added to the lede. That was disgusting.
- You added new content. That was not done inadvertently. Above you wrote "That is a transition in prose that does not need a citation per WP:SKYBLUE, IMO." That confirms it was not done inadvertently. You did not provide verification for the new content. What source verifies the new content or what it per WP:SKYBLUE? Please address the question. Do you agree you won't add new content that is unsourced? QuackGuru (talk) 08:07, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- The lengths to which you have gone to "prove" that I did such actions deliberately lead me to longer be able to assume the assumption of good faith on your part. Per Bastun I have attempted to make a compromise in the lead, changing only the first sentences. If you see any necessary changes in formatting feel free to make them yourself, but please do not revert or undo this change. Please bring up any lingering big issues on this talk page, the edit-warring noticeboard, or the dispute resolution noticeboard.– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 13:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was only trying to reword content that was already in the body, I apologize if I inadvertently introduced anything new. Let's see how the third opinion goes. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 08:03, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is a transition in prose that does not need a citation per WP:SKYBLUE, IMO. I see we are at a bit of an impasse here, so I have sought a third opinion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- See "In addition to his work on Wikipedia..." The source that was close by did not verify this part. QuackGuru (talk) 07:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- Generally speaking if something is in the lead it should already be in the body. You can check for verification there, therefore lead citations are generally an unnecessary clutter. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- You have shown citations are needed. Please do not remove citations from this lede, especially when you are replacing sourced content with misleading and bias content against a living person. I can't easily check verification without the citations remaining in the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 07:32, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I do not agree that "best known for" casts doubt onto his being the co-founder, as it's not something to the effect of "who claims to be", "alleged", etc. However, you do have a point that it might be otherwise problematic with verification. Would you be willing to accept the rest of my work on the lead if I reword it to remove that phrase? If not I can ask for a third opinion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 07:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- The citation does not verify "best known for being". The wording does dispute whether Sanger is the co-founder. Please do not add content that is not verifiable. When an editor adds content that fails verification that means citations should stay in the lede. Please don't bring up the co-founder dispute to Wikipedia articles. Please don't try to gain consensus for disputing Sanger is the co-founder. QuackGuru (talk) 07:21, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- What an odd dispute - "best known as co-founder of Wikipedia" is a) accurate, and b) in no way a challenge to the fact that he co-founded Wikipedia. Odd edit summaries, too - what BLP was "re-inserted" and fixed by you removing a space from a reference name? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:12, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I've declined QuackGuru's full protection request. Airplaneman (talk) ✈ 15:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- User:Airplaneman, do you think contacting the WMF would help? This should not happening on this article given the high profile nature. QuackGuru (talk) 17:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute, which is not the purview of the WMF. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 17:18, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- See this diff. He is not currently an "American epistemologist". Please read the archives. This was discussed before. The part "best known for being" not supported by the citations in the body. He may be *best known* for being a critic of Wikipedia. The part "educational websites such as" is misleading. The other websites are not described as educational websites. The part "such as" does not make much sense. Given this is a live article the changes should not stay in the article. The lede says "He is the former editor-in-chief of Nupedia,[9]" In September 2017, it was announced that Sanger had joined Everipedia as chief information officer.[20][21] Adding Nupedia and Everipedia to the first paragraph is duplication. The citation did not verify Everipedia in the first paragraph. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
A request for a Third Opinion in regard to this dispute has been removed (i.e. declined) since a third opinion was given by Bastun after the filing of that request. Bastun's opinion can either be seen as a Third Opinion or a third editor entering the dispute (and Third Opinions are only available in disputes between exactly two editors). If addition moderated content dispute resolution is desired, consider making a request at Dispute Resolution Noticeboard or filing a Request for Comments after, in either case, carefully reading the instructions there. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:39, 27 June 2019 (UTC) This is an informational posting only and I am not watching this page; contact me on my user talk page if you wish to communicate with me about this.
- An edit-war discussion is underway regarding the contents of this discussion. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:20, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I became aware of this page due to its listing on WP:3O. I don't want to wade into the edit war dispute; I am not planning to touch the article in any way, but from a content dispute perspective, I was hoping that perhaps another voice might help add a little clarity. My opinion is that I agree with Bastun; I certainly did not read the lead as somehow lessening Mr. Sanger's status as co-founder of Wikipedia. In fact, we state so clearly in Wikipedia's voice, not attributed to a third party ("so-and-so source claims he is the co-founder of Wikipedia"). We use this construct all the time: for example, Cary Elwes is
best known for his roles as Westley in The Princess Bride, Robin Hood in Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
In my personal opinion, this wording does not imply in the least that there is any doubt that he appeared in both movies as the respective characters, but only that he is potentially known for other, ostensibly lesser accomplishments as well. There certainly is no disrespect intended by saying so, and I don't think we are doing Mr. Sanger a disservice by stating it in those terms. I suppose you could argue that we are merely assuming that he is "best known" for that particular accomplishment, but it is certainly a common way of saying "this is what Wikipedia thinks his most important accomplishment is". One could possibly consider that WP:OR, but then again, if we were to simply state "Larry Sanger is the co-founder of Wikipedia" as the first sentence of the lead, I think we are making the exact same statement. All the "best known for" does in this instance is clarify that there are other things he might also be known for that aren't mentioned in the first sentence. I hope this helps.
For what it's worth, Googling "Larry Sanger" "wikipedia" "co-founder" yields about 4 times the results that "Larry Sanger" "wikipedia" "critic" does. Again, this is hardly statistically valid, but it's at least nominal verification that we aren't completely out in left field. In fact, most of the spot-checking I did when I ran the second query had Mr. Sanger being introduced, often in the title of the article, as "Co-Founder Larry Sanger". CThomas3 (talk) 04:23, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Best known for
Can we focus on diff which adds "best known for being the co-founder of Wikipedia" to the lead. I know #Co-founder dispute deals with the topic, but that section is a lost cause as it tries to cover other points as well, and it got off to a bad start with QG's hard-to-understand claims about weasel words and a suggestion that "best known for" somehow casts doubt on whether "co-founder" is correct (QG: both those points are wrong).
Problems:
- The lead should be a summary of what is in the article, and the article does not say anything about "best known".
- While editors on this page might regard Sanger as best known for his role in Wikipedia, I doubt whether more than a tiny number of editors, and almost none of Wikipedia's readers, would recognize Sanger's name.
- What does "best known" add to the article? Just assert that he co-founded Wikipedia and leave readers to decide whether that is significant.
- Assertions must be verifiable, and particularly must be referenced when challenged. The exceptions are WP:CALC which does not apply, and WP:BLUESKY mentioned above. BLUESKY is an essay which does not overrule the WP:BURDEN policy. BLUESKY states that not everything needs a citation, which is reasonable. However, the "best known" claim is an editor's opinion which may not be shared by people familiar with Sanger's other work.
I think "best known for" was first added on 27 June 2019—I don't remember seeing it in this article before. Why should it be kept? Assertions are never kept on the basis of original research using Google or anything else. Johnuniq (talk) 05:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm fine with whatever consensus we develop with regards to the "best known for" phrase, provided that it's civil and not edit-warring (speaking of which, I'll hold back on editing the lead myself until the WP:ANEW thread is dealt with). I would tend to support its inclusion if we can find a source to support it. If we can't, I'll see how else I can reword it without the phrase; "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer who co-founded Wikipedia."? That could work if we can't find a source for "best-known", but it just doesn't seem as engaging to me. (Then again, Wikipedia's not an action novel, so we shouldn't be sacrificing truth and verifiability for pizzazz.) EDIT: How about "Lawrence Mark Sanger ... is an American epistemologist and internet project developer. Along with Jimmy Wales he co-founded the online encyclopedia Wikipedia."? It would also make who the other co-founder was clearer. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 05:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that. Johnuniq (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's fair enough. I think there should be a section on the founder drama (and there already is under "Origins of Wikipedia" if I'm not mistaken), but there's no reason to bring it up in the lead, especially if this is to become an FAC as I would like it to be someday. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 05:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that. Johnuniq (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)