Timeshift9 (talk | contribs) amend comment |
Timeshift9 (talk | contribs) comment |
||
Line 295: | Line 295: | ||
::^^^ I agree with every word of this. For the record, this page has been directly linked [http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/wikipedia_confesses_a_certain_bias/ here], written 31 October (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kevin_Rudd&oldid=154773887 here] for revision). I can only assume this was what PB was referring to? [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] 08:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
::^^^ I agree with every word of this. For the record, this page has been directly linked [http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/wikipedia_confesses_a_certain_bias/ here], written 31 October (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kevin_Rudd&oldid=154773887 here] for revision). I can only assume this was what PB was referring to? [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] 08:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
||
:::I'm planning to have a more thorough look at this page and what else could be gainfully added to it after I'm finished with uni for the year. That should be early November, by which point the election ''should'' be called and there'll be more traffic here anyway. [[User:BigHaz|BigHaz]] - [[User_talk:BigHaz|Schreit mich an]] 09:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
:::I'm planning to have a more thorough look at this page and what else could be gainfully added to it after I'm finished with uni for the year. That should be early November, by which point the election ''should'' be called and there'll be more traffic here anyway. [[User:BigHaz|BigHaz]] - [[User_talk:BigHaz|Schreit mich an]] 09:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
||
::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Howard&diff=163460708&oldid=163460190 Here's someone] with a vested interest doing some real whitewashing. [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] 01:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:04, 10 October 2007
Biography: Politics and Government B‑class | ||||||||||
|
Australia: Politics B‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||||||||
|
Image to be deleted
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RuddFamily.JPG - can anyone else see why this should be deleted if kevin07.com copyright allows its use? Timeshift 18:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
good point, kevin07.com own it and allow free use? Whats the reason for it being deleted? and who authorised it needs to be asked?--203.192.92.73 12:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
The Strip Club Story
Since there's already been at least one addition and removal of the "Kevin in the strip club" story, I think it's a good idea to hash it out here so that a consensus can be established. Basically, what does everyone think about whether or not it belongs in this article? I can see a couple of different viewpoints, but you're welcome to have more:
- It's a significant piece of information and belongs in the article somewhere with appropriate sourcing etc (I should say here that "with appropriate sourcing etc" is non-negotiable).
- It's a storm in a teacup which people will have forgotten next week and therefore has no place here whatever.
- We won't know whether it has any bearing on his life until later, but we should keep it in just in case.
- We won't know whether it has any bearing on his life until later, in which case we can re-insert it when/if it becomes relevant.
My own view inclines towards the idea of re-inserting it if it becomes more relevant, but I'm only one man. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- When he has a nice, big, through article and this incident is clearly established as important to his life, then it should be included. While the article is small, its inclusion gives undue weight to the incident and this is not neutral. Michael talk 11:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- At the moment I would agree it is borderline one sentence and not more. The Liberals haven't really grabbed a hold of it at all.. Howard and Rudd are on the front pages on a regular basis anyway, so if this keeps on getting a solid coverage over an extended period, then it will be notable.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to wait a while (say weeks) before putting it in. It's too early to gauge the significance of it. Peter Ballard 12:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Just wait until tomorrow. You'll have your pick of front-page newspaper stories to cite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yeti Hunter (talk • contribs) 12:11:50, August 19, 2007 (UTC).
- I'm inclined to wait a while (say weeks) before putting it in. It's too early to gauge the significance of it. Peter Ballard 12:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Normal tabloid garbage. The story might do the rounds tomorrow, but will be forgotten shortly afterwards. If the story becomes the target of a protracted smear campaign ala Mark Latham and the taxi driver, then perhaps it would be included. Recurring dreams 12:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it should be included, don't wait until it's old news. If it becomes old news and irrelevant, take it down when the heat dies. Until then, put it up but give it a Current Events banner. It is already having an effect on Rudd's polls, which in itself worth a mention. Eedo Bee 14:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- A no-brainer to me- controversies and scandals are particularly relevant for political figures. This is not a disputed incident, and its importance ought to be self-evident for a national political leader. Gordon Campbell has a section on his drunk-driving offense while vacationing; needless to say Bill Clinton includes discussion of his alleged personal peccadilloes. While reasonable people may dispute the relevance of such things with respect to supporting these people politically, there is no doubt such information is highly relevant. Gabrielthursday 20:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think there's a difference between Campbell and Clinton and Rudd. Campbell was actually convicted of a crime, and Clinton's dalliances dominated the news for months, nearly ending up with his impeachment. Additionally, both men led their particular places (BC and the USA). There's no whiff of crime or impeachment for Rudd, and he also isn't the Prime Minister. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-kiss-and-makeup-as-rudds-halo-slips/2007/08/19/1187462091914.html
- Of course it should be included, don't wait until it's old news. If it becomes old news and irrelevant, take it down when the heat dies. Until then, put it up but give it a Current Events banner. It is already having an effect on Rudd's polls, which in itself worth a mention. Eedo Bee 14:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
68.255.236.21 18:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a big story at the moment, sure, but realistically, just how many biographical articles mention that the subject was at a strip joint? If it has some major effect or it emerges he fathered a child in the brothel next door or something, sure, but until then, I'd leave it out. If the story grows legs and wings, maybe it will add some colour. Rudd's main problem is that he's as bland as a pair of old socks. --Pete 22:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
If this escalates in to a larger story or begins to tie in with another part of Rudd's campaign, then perhaps. But until then, i've had far more relevant material deleted, so there's no question over this one (for now at least). Timeshift 23:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey guy's, I would strongly recommend that the information about K.Rudds strip club story be inserted, but in an extremely small way. I would suggest the following sentence, and if people think it's good then I'd reccommend it be added under *religious views* or a new category. Submission follows: "On August 19 2007, Glenn Milne, a political journalist contributing to "The Sunday Telegraph", alledged that Kevin Rudd had visited the New York gentleman's club "Score's" while visiting the United States for a UN conference. Kevin Rudd confirmed the allegation, however cited that it was a mistake, caused by having "too much to drink" (ref, http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,22268275-5001021,00.html). Following the admission, political commentators have called into question Kevin Rudd's discipline and personal credentials.(refs, http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,22268275-5001021,00.html , http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/christian_socialist_found_in_strip_bar/desc/ )" :End Submission. I think this is the appropriate coverage of this issue, 2 sentences that adequately sum up the issue in a non pov way, well backed up with references. Responses welcome please! Will post if no issues are raised in the next day. Cheerio: --Brynic 03:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The point about this discussion is that we're trying to work out a consensus, and saying "Will post if no issues are raised in the next day" is the opposite of that. There's a considerable body of opinion here arguing that it may well blow over into irrelevance, so I wouldn't simply go adding material tomorrow. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 03:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with the wording proposed, though the references seem appropriate. There would appear, in my view, to be a little interpretation in the proposed wording, and certainly a report of a confirmed fact should not be described as an allegation. Let's not forget WP:BOLD regarding making edits- proposing to add tomorrow is hardly inappropriate, but is rather entirely reasonable. With respect to Pete's comment, very few politicians have been publicly identified as having gone to a strip club; and due to the nature of their occupation, this is important to a degree that is not present with respect to, for example, professional athletes. This was a front page story in Australia. Gabrielthursday 04:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- You're interpreting WP:BOLD in completely the wrong way. Timeshift 04:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with the wording proposed, though the references seem appropriate. There would appear, in my view, to be a little interpretation in the proposed wording, and certainly a report of a confirmed fact should not be described as an allegation. Let's not forget WP:BOLD regarding making edits- proposing to add tomorrow is hardly inappropriate, but is rather entirely reasonable. With respect to Pete's comment, very few politicians have been publicly identified as having gone to a strip club; and due to the nature of their occupation, this is important to a degree that is not present with respect to, for example, professional athletes. This was a front page story in Australia. Gabrielthursday 04:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hey Bighaz, sorry about the next day thing. I simply meant that if people were supporting, I would post it. Obviously, you are against it, and I won't post. *posting timeframe revoked*. I agree with Gabrielthursday, that this was large scale news in australia, and certainly should be reported. Speculation as to whether this will *blow over into irrelevance* is, in my opinion, irrelevant to this argument, as it is the responsibility of this resource to post information relevant at the time. If, in a months time, it is irrelevant, it can certainly be deleted. That's my opinion anyway, but as I said, I have decided not to post, but others can feel free to use my words. --137.219.189.218 04:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I take your point. What I can foresee happening, though, is a prolonged edit war if people were to start adding things before some kind of consensus is worked out here - and an edit/revert war is hardly what anyone wants, I trust. In an ideal world, if we end up deciding that it does merit an inclusion in the main article, we'd then be able to work out the best way to write it up. That may or may not happen, but I think we all owe it to each other to try here. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 04:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- If anybody inserts a strip club reference, I'll take it out immediately. It's not notable, simply because visiting a strip joint is something just about every man does at least once. You'll note that all Australian politicians are shying away from giving direct answers to similar questions - because for most of them the answer would be "Hell, yes!" It's like inserting a reference to a politician visting a bar and getting sozzled - so commonplace as not to be worth mentioning. If there is anything more to the story, which I strongly doubt, then the notability issue will become moot. --Pete 05:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I take your point. What I can foresee happening, though, is a prolonged edit war if people were to start adding things before some kind of consensus is worked out here - and an edit/revert war is hardly what anyone wants, I trust. In an ideal world, if we end up deciding that it does merit an inclusion in the main article, we'd then be able to work out the best way to write it up. That may or may not happen, but I think we all owe it to each other to try here. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 04:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think the strip club incident is trivial. However, the story is notable because of the huge issue that News Ltd papers are making it. Front page headline on every major paper in the country. With coverage like that, who are we to then say it is non-notable? I think it should be added to the Wiki, but worded to say something like "Newspapers made headlines of his visit to a strip club". It can always be modified as the story plays out. Also, in a week there should be opinion polls, which could be added, like "his popularity plummeted as a result", or "it didn't affect his popularity at all". Whether we like it or not, it has been made into a major news story. The story may also yet have more mileage as more info comes in. For example, he was asked to go to the club by a News Ltd journo. The one who broke the story was also a News Ltd journo, who himself has a reputation for bad behaviour while drunk. Same journo who destroyed Brogden. Who knows which way this story will go. Cheers, Lester2 06:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I gave Glenn Milne a lift to the airport a few weeks back. He's just a journo, doing his job and getting stories. This story might be hot stuff in the papers now, but for a biographical article it's nothing. Lester2, you're big on current events, so why don't you go write up a story on Wikinews, where this is legitimate? --Pete 06:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
How come there's nothing on the strip club scandal in the article? Even if it is not a large incident it is still receiving front page nationwide coverage which makes it notable. Do I think that a person should be judged based on their completely legal actions? No. Does the Australian public care about it? Yes. To exclude it would be in violation of WP:NPOV. Guycalledryan 07:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Whether or not it is in fact important enough to turn up here is precisely what we're discussing here. It may yet turn into something like Mark Latham's altercation with a taxi driver, but the question of whether it is in fact significant enough to rate a mention is still an open one. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I stand by my earlier comments. This is tabloid garbage, and in fact got far less oxygen than I thought it would originally. The government even declined to comment about it. What's the political/ personal significance of this story? Just because something makes the news on one day doesn't make it notable; this is wikipedia, not wikinews. Recurring dreams 07:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
WHO CARES ABOUT IT (210.56.73.12 08:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC))
This is an Encyclopedia we have policies to deal with these types of events WP:BLP, WP:NPOV are good starting points. As such trivial sensationalized stories on Politicians about events that occurred four years ago shouldn't be included into any article, by all means feel free to write about these event on Wikinews thats where these types of stories belong. You can even link it to this article, unless it results in KR resigning the matter is most likely to be forgotten beyond the next few days. As a guide to its notability the news here in Perth has reported that John Howard declined to comment on the matter, something he didnt do with the events surrounding Mark Latham which were significant to end his career. Also remember that we are building to an election within the next six months so there will a host of irrelevant stories about all the politicians paraded through the media. Gnangarra 09:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a massive story right now... It has been a front pager for two days and the lead story on ABC news (among others) two nights in a row. I fail to see how anyone could dispute this was worth a mention. Pure and absolute bias too the strongest degree. This is not just another media beat-up ala Brian Burke. It is a major story... yet wikipedia is rufusing to even MENTION it... is someone scared? 58.178.89.177 09:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- all this can be summed up in one Policy WP:NOT#NEWS. Gnangarra 09:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because Wikipedia has never had a recent news event mentioned on it... this is a joke 58.178.89.177 13:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wikipedia hasn't had every recent news event mentioned on it, for starters. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because Wikipedia has never had a recent news event mentioned on it... this is a joke 58.178.89.177 13:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- all this can be summed up in one Policy WP:NOT#NEWS. Gnangarra 09:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok - a full paragraph or subsection is certainly not warranted on this issue - but a fair argument could be put up for a simple one sentence on this issue such as "In mid-August 2007 there was brief controversy involving the attendance of Kevin Rudd at a New York 'gentleman's club' while he was posted there as a UN observer four years earlier." It could even be cut down more, but even more trivial matter have been covered on Wikipedia! Sound reasonable? ronan.evans 05:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Initially I said "wait", but I think we've seen enough to know it will be with us for a long time - like Malcolm Fraser's trousers, Latham breaking the taxi driver's arm and Alexander Downer in heels. I think it needs a short paragraph. Though I don't care if we wait a little longer before doing so. Peter Ballard 12:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
In my opinoion it deserves a mention has it shows that he doesn't adhere to his own policy. It will affect the publics opinion of him, and as such should be retained. Lukeluke112 09:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure which policy of the ALP conflicts with it, but perhaps I just haven't been following politics closely enough. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
You guys realise that this event occurred about 4 years ago? It was only brought up by the pro-liberal media for what seemed like one day, just to attack him. But it's really quite irrelevent now.
DarthSidious 10:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)DarthSidious
Omissions
There are numerous interesting things that are missing from the article- onethat stands out is that Kevin Rudd actually supported the invasion of Iraq based on him thinking there were WMD's there,he did not even get the bad inteligence on the matter, it was his own thoughts. “I’ve said repeatedly that there is a significant threat of weapons of mass destruction from Iraq,” Rudd declared in September 2002. “Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction—this is a matter of empirical fact,” he told the State Zionist Council of Victoria in October 2002. “Biological weapons is right in the middle of the sandwich when it comes to the critique currently, legitimate critique, of the Iraqi regime,” he added shortly before the invasion.
Why is this not mentioned? He later made a statement to channel 7 that convieniently forgot his previous stand. This quote that was not based on evidence puts into question his ability to tell the trutth and also his memory. His foreign policy is also questionable when he makes generalisations about a foreign country possibly having WMD's Liquor box 07 03:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Be bold and get editing then.--Yeti Hunter 10:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC) I dont know how! i think the page is locked —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.199.248 (talk) 06:30, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
- Many people believed the evidence was irrefutable, then changed their view when they realised it wasn't - this was the case all over the world, and on both the left and right of politics. The fact it was borderline fraudulent only came out after extensive inquiries later on. Beazley as Opp Leader (and probably Rudd as opp foreign affairs spokesman) would have received briefings from the relevant departments showing them evidence that doesn't normally get seen by the public, and it would have been fair to assume that this evidence was reliable - keeping in mind that neither individual is an expert in logistics or intelligence, as with all but a very few politicians. Orderinchaos 15:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The article glosses over Rudd's role in the Qld public service. He was well known and disliked as a result of his attitude toward cost cutting at the expense of: 1. Public service efficiency 2. Long term planning 3. The welfare of staff. It is significant that the result of these cuts are now being seen in the infrastructure failings on the Queensland executive. The parlous state of roads, schools, health and water are dirctly as a result of Rudds poor planning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbingley (talk • contribs) 07:23, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
- Again, if you feel that there's an omission, be bold and add the relevant information - with sources, of course. I'll see what I can rustle up myself, but I'm a busy man. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Iraqi weapons of mass destrution is besides the point, he was silly enough to believe Bush, Blair and Howard pushing the cover story alot of people did not think they where lieing/miss informed by liars just like he did.
Howard etc also said the WMDs existed, Howard also said he would keep interest rates down but thats another lie--203.192.92.73 12:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sure you will find numerous mentions to Howard, interest rates, WMD - this is the point people are trying to make here: Why is Rudd's position at the time of the invasion (more or less exactly the same) not mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.213.149 (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because nobody's added it yet? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd bet a rather large sum of money that if someone was "bold" and added it, it would be promptly removed and explained away in the manner you have seen in the above comments. 70.189.213.149 18:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- If that happened, then (assuming the information was sourced reliably), you'd be within your rights to re-add it. If it's just added without a source or with an unreliable one, then yes it would be promptly removed. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'd bet a rather large sum of money that if someone was "bold" and added it, it would be promptly removed and explained away in the manner you have seen in the above comments. 70.189.213.149 18:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- The WMD quotes should be in the article, if properly cited. It's important information on an important issue.--Lester2 05:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
inacuracy
I'm pretty sure that Labor were already in front in the polls before Keven Rudd won the leadership. However the article says that soon after he became leader they were in front. I think it would be better to say soon after Rudd won the leadership labors polling improved dramatically from 51% 2 party preferred to 56% 2 party preferred within X amount of weeks or by X date.(those figures are just examples not facts) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muppet man67 (talk • contribs) 12:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's correct - this site graphs the polls (although can't be cited as a RS) and shows it was in Labor's favour for most of 2006, with occasional exceptions. Orderinchaos 15:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
why did this get changed back? I read that someone wanted a citation but I dont see why it needs to be cited any more then the statement as it stands currently which is factually incorrect. If you think a citation is needed then find one or remove that whole section. Its just dumb to revert back to a statement that has been established as inacurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muppet man67 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Dr Death
completely misrepresents the Goss days.
No mention of his nickname "Dr Death"
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20867254-601,00.html
No mention of the document shredding in the Heiner affair just " this position Rudd was arguably Queensland's most powerful bureaucrat."
Given the details on the John Howard page the omissions are quite surprising.
Or the Courier Mail investigation into his property tax avoidance (Dilkera Street)
http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/goss/oneill.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.222.105 (talk) 03:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The book sighted describes his Nickname: Dr Death. (Stirling Taylor 11:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
- If you feel factual relevant information is missing that could be incorporated consistent with neutral point of view and Biographies of living persons policy (noting that Wikipedia is not tabloid), then be bold and add it. To reduce the likelihood of being reverted, use meaningful Edit Summaries, seek consensus for disputed/controversial additions and/or justify them on the article talkpage. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 12:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Introductory Paragraph
I'm not sure if this is the case for articles on politicians, but the leading paragraph says that if "If Kevin Rudd wins a majority of the lower house... he will become the next PM". Fair enough that may be the case, but to an extent is not a certainty, and i personally think that it should be changed to something more simplistic such as he is contesting for the PM position in the upcoming election. Sir Jimmy 11:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- From memory, the paragraph was worded that way so that readers unfamiliar with the Westminster system would be able to understand precisely how he was contesting for the Prime Ministership. It's not the most elegant of sentences, although I'd say that if the ALP wins a majority then Rudd's chances of being PM are roughly around the 100% mark, and I'm certainly willing to hash out a better phrasing of things here if you're up for it. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let's just keep it the way it is for a few months. Then it just has to be changed to "Kevin Rudd is the current Prime Minister of Australia." --BrianFG 23:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't agree. I think the article lead-in should stick with present facts. Introducing conditional "if" statements about hypothetical future events (regardless of their likelihood or not) is unencyclopedic. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 14:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with Brendan, until the election he's officially recognised as leader of the opposition, what happens after the election is speculation. Additionally the lead is a summary of the article this isnt discussed anywhere in the article. Gnangarra 14:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Religious views
I take issue with this section having so much prominence. His TOC is 1 Early life, 2 Early career, 3 Federal politics, 4 Political views, and 5 Religious views. I'm thinking that maybe it would be better to put political views and religious views under federal politics as sub-headings? Timeshift 23:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- His religious views have been very prominent - they deserve the place that they have in the article. Let's just leave it as is. JRG 12:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
New image
Can someone confirm if the person next to Rudd is his son? Timeshift 08:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Second picture here - who thinks the older son is the same person? Timeshift 08:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure they're one and the same. The tall bloke in the white shirt in the second shot is definitely the elder son, so I think the caption for the first shot is correct in the article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- But the first shot? Timeshift 09:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Like I said, I'm pretty sure he's the same one as the elder son in the second shot. So if the guy in the white shirt in the family-standing-in-hallway shot is the elder son, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the guy next to KR in the marching photo is his son as well. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- But the first shot? Timeshift 09:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure they're one and the same. The tall bloke in the white shirt in the second shot is definitely the elder son, so I think the caption for the first shot is correct in the article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- His son has a name - it is Nicholas - not sure of the spelling. JRG 12:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Crystal
"Should Labor win a majority of lower house seats at the upcoming 2007 federal election, Rudd will succeed John Howard and become the 26th Prime Minister of Australia."
This isn't a prediction, it's a fact of the current situation. Quoting from WP:CRYSTAL: "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place" sounds like the situation we have here. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 14:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
There are many facts of the current situation that we can predicate upon "if X happens, then Y will be the outcome". That doesn't make it encyclopedic. Are you arguing that the election outcome is "almost certain"? Moreover, what would happen to the certainty of the asserted "fact" if something happened to Rudd between the election and his (presently hypothetical) swearing-in as PM? Or any other event that invalidates the alleged "fact", for that matter?
The problem with making statements about the future is that you can never account for all the variables. That's one reason why encyclopedic articles avoid them. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 14:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC). Refer to discussion above at #Introductory Paragraph
- Point well taken. However, I'd make two arguments against that. Firstly, should the ALP win the election, Rudd's chances of becoming Prime Minister are roughly 100%. Yes, there's a chance that something may occur in between election night and the swearing-in of a possible new government, but I don't subscribe to the view that that invalidates a sentence such as the one we have here. Secondly, the paragraph was written that way in order that someone unfamiliar with the Westminster system would understand what it means that Rudd is the Opposition Leader etc etc. If there's a good way of explaining that without being ambiguous, I'm all for changing it. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
General exposition of the Westminster system of government belong elsewhere, not in an article about Kevin Rudd. The material in question (as pointed out by Gnangarra) is not included anywhere else in the article. Predicating the inclusion of a self-contained statement (in the lead section) on one possible future outcome is generally against policy (WP:CRYSTAL), against guideline (WP:LEAD), non-factual, speculative and unencyclopedic. Articles are not horoscopes. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 23:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
How about making Leader of the Opposition (his primary claim to fame) more prominent, so the user can click to find out what that means. I've always been of the opinion that if someone doesn't know how to click a link to get more information, they shouldn't be using Wikipedia. So the intro reads something like this. Paragraph 1: Kevin Rudd (born whenever) is the Australian Federal Leader of the Opposition. (Paragraph break for emphasis). Paragraph 2: Rudd entered parliament in 1998, yada yada, and replaced Kim Beazley as ALP Leader and Leader of the Opposition in December 2006. He will lead Labor at the Australian general election 2007. Peter Ballard 03:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the reasoning of Brendan and Peter here. I have long thought this particular passage has been "unique" to any other political article, and slants the article to much towards Rudd worship. It violates WP:CRYSTAL, doesn't read like an encyclopedic article, and doesn't deal with the here and now. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 03:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'd have no objection to rewrite along the lines of what Peter Ballard's proposing either. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Peter B. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 10:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've changed the article lead, in line with Peter's suggestion, to:
- Kevin Michael Rudd (born 21 September 1957), is Leader of the Opposition in the Australian Parliament.
- Rudd entered parliament in 1998, representing the Division of Griffith, Queensland, and replaced Kim Beazley as leader of the Australian Labor Party in December 2006. He will lead Labor at the 2007 federal election.
- --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 02:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Changed back. How you can achieve consensus yet I do not know. Please ask more widely. JRG 04:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- This discussion started here on the 6th, since then only User:BigHaz has participated saying it should be kept, but he has since said I'd have no objection to rewrite along the lines of what Peter Ballard's proposing either. that was on the 13th. From whats been said there is consensus, if you now wish to change it you should start a fresh discussion first. Gnangarra 05:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
you don't consider my opening this discussion as participating? WikiTownsvillian 05:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Even then, my earlier comments weren't saying that it should be kept so much as explaining why it was written the way it was written. If I wasn't so busy offline these days, I would probably have taken a more active role in addressing the concerns being raised and trying to come up with a suitable intro, so I'm very glad that Peter proposed something and got the ball rolling. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- What happened to my comments? I posted something here earlier... oh well. I don't think either of these are adequate, to be honest. Let's put this out to a wider audience - not just the talk page. JRG 05:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Controversey Section
I recently came across the following section on the article. This section casts very negative light on Mr. Rudd, and if unture presents amazing problems for WP:BLP. The text I removed is below. I suggest someone give s ource before it's added back in:
==Controversy== [[Image:Kevstrip.JPG|thumb|right|A 'Kevin Rudd' stripper that mocked the issue on [[The Chasers War on Everything]] ([[ABC]] program)]] Unfortunately for Mr.Rudd, it was recently discovered that, on one of his visits in [[New York]], he made his way into a [[strip club]] along with some of his male (and one female) friends.<br />Rudd claims that he never intended to be 'Captain Perfect' and tries to express that this is a mistake that many other [[Australian]] men would make.<br />Since the incident, there hasn't been much media attention to this issue, but the moment is constantly brought up on comical shows and performances.
--YbborTalk 02:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- There's been discussion about whether to include this pretty much ever since the story broke, and consensus has (so far) been not to, so you did the right thing to remove it from the article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Consensus already formed on strippergate. And I think it shows the user's POV that he takes a screenshot of a Chaser parody of women dancing in Kevin07 paraphanalia, and calls them "Kevin Rudd strippers on Chaser". May I take the chance to remind that the issue only helped to consolidate Rudd's lead in the polls, especially amongst males. Timeshift 09:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not a unanimous consensus. As I indicated, "strippergate" is roughly on par with Fraser's trousers, Downer's heels and Latham and the taxi driver's arm, all of which are mentioned in their respective articles. I think the stripper incident needs a brief mention. Peter Ballard 05:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- To be fair, consensus need not be unanimous. That's why I said that "so far" consensus has been not to include it, since reasonable arguments in favour of including it will certainly be entertained. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 23:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- As above, consensus need not be unanimous. I continue to disagree that it's worth mentioning - do we really want this page to become a list of Liberal smears and wedges pre-election? Timeshift 23:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- To be fair, consensus need not be unanimous. That's why I said that "so far" consensus has been not to include it, since reasonable arguments in favour of including it will certainly be entertained. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 23:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Consensus means rational arguments should be answered. Could someone please explain why Fraser's trousers, Downer's heels and Latham's taxi get a mention, but Rudd at the strip club does not. To me they are all roughly equivalent. Peter Ballard 00:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Consensus certainly does mean that and - at least AFAIK - this discussion is the first time that all of those incidents have been raised together. I can't speak to Fraser and Latham, but certainly Downer is still caricatured as wearing fishnets and heels in the press, which suggests that the incident has sort of "taken on a life of its own", if I can put it that way. With the exception of a press reaction right at the time, there doesn't seem to be any real "life of its own" sensibility to the strippers. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong here, since I'm the first to admit I'm not following the news as closely as I'd like to right now. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Consensus means rational arguments should be answered. Could someone please explain why Fraser's trousers, Downer's heels and Latham's taxi get a mention, but Rudd at the strip club does not. To me they are all roughly equivalent. Peter Ballard 00:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well I've heard plenty of references to it. It is of course impossible to be certain that it will hang around Rudd forever; but judging by the examples I offered above, it is probable that it will. Peter Ballard 13:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm always wary of calls to censor politicians' history. I think it's better to bias towards inclusion rather than omission. The stripclub thing could always be included in a section about the 2007 election campaign, where various issues about Rudd's background were dredged up. We're not dredging up new information, we are just reflecting the media storm that was generated by it, and reflecting the general coverage of Kevin Rudd. Ask someone on the street what they know about Kevin Rudd, and more people will mention the strip club issue than anything else. Whether we think it should or shouldn't be in the public domain is not the point. We should be reflecting the outside media, and reflecting what Kevin Rudd is generally known for, and like it or not, the strip club is one of the more known aspects of him. I mean, I personally don't care if Alexander Downer chooses to wear fishnets, but that's what he's generally known for.--Lester2 02:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Lester2. It's a matter of getting the balance right -- include too much and the BLP becomes an tabloid piece, include too little and it becomes beige and sterile. On this issue, I support a minor inclusion, in the appropriate section, describing the "strippergate" revelation in its political context, in proportion to other included matters of similar relevance. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 15:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Aortic valve replacement section
I'm leaning towards a weak keep - assuming that we show the same level of interest in other party leaders. Starting this discussion now as to form a consensus and avoid another revert war. Timeshift 23:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- I haven't been following the news as closely this week as I'd like to, so I might be barking up the wrong tree. As I understand it, the story only came up on something like Sept 17/18, so ideally I'd like to see it be talked about for a bit longer than it has been before it appears here. After all, it may turn out that it's an absolute non-issue now. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 23:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW it's worth mentioning (if we are mentioning this) that Rudd did the Kokoda track last year. Is this wedge/smear number 124? Timeshift 23:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe there's a question as to whether K.R's medical history should have been put into the public domain by the media (ie, Nine Network), but now that it's out there the issue can't be put back into its box. It's receiving significant media coverage, therefore it should be included in this article.--Lester2 02:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW it's worth mentioning (if we are mentioning this) that Rudd did the Kokoda track last year. Is this wedge/smear number 124? Timeshift 23:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- I support a minor inclusion, in an appropriate section, describing the heart-op news, in its correct context and in proportion to other included matters of similar relevance. Currently it appears chronologically (under Political provenance). I think it would fit better in its political context (ie. the contemporary political/media hype) as that, not the event itself, is what makes it notable/relevant. This would mean adding it onto the end of the Leader of the Opposition section, or in a new subsequent section about the 2007 election campaign (and its lead-up). --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 17:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- I support inclusion to the same extent as John Howard's hearing impediment is included. (Stirling Taylor 09:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
Rudd Quotes should be deleted
In accordance with the discussion on the John Howard Page:
"Exclusive use of, and sole reliance upon, Howard's quote"
All of Kevin Rudd's quotation's require deletion if they cannot be substatiated by someone other than Kevin Rudd, or someone who is not relying on Kevin Rudd. (Stirling Taylor 09:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
- No, don't agree at all. The discussion on the Howard page was over the quotes in that page, and did not agree upon a wiki-wide consensus.Recurring dreams 09:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
You can't have it both ways. Either exlusive reliance on a quote from the subject of a wiki page is permissable for reference on that page or it isn't. (Stirling Taylor 10:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
- I agree with Recurring dreams. Stirling Taylor, please seek consensus for your views. Your interpretation of what justifies inclusion of quotes are not reflected in Wiki policy. Consensus on the removal of one quote in another article for specific agreed reasons does not imply that all quotes, everywhere, should also be removed. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 10:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Brendan: Please clarify: Is text based on "Exclusive use of, and sole reliance upon," the subject of a wiki page acceptable"? (Stirling Taylor 11:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
- I don't understand the question. Please see my earlier response. Try to phrase your editorial views in terms of Wikipedia policy and/or how your proposed changes will improve the article/encyclopedia. If you disagree with the inclusion/exclusion of content on the John Howard article, go the Howard talkpage and start/participate in a discussion about that. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 11:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Addition of Mark Latham quotes regarding Rudd
If on the John Howard page Peter Costello quotes from a book are relevant, then I see no reason why Mark Latham quotes from his book aren't relevant to Kevin Rudd. (Stirling Taylor 09:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
- Need to be sourced. And also have to consider their relevance in this context. Recurring dreams 09:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
He was the Shadow Minister and the comments of the Labor party Leader at that time about his performance are relevant. I will type the entire quote out if you prefer? (Stirling Taylor 10:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
Is the material you're seeking to include reliable. Does it give rise to a neutral point of view? Does it have weight or is it trivial? Please elaborate and seek consensus before re-adding the disputed material. Please avoid 3RR. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 10:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The point of view is from the previous Leader of the Australian Labor Party. Surely you are not suggestion previous leaders of political parties cannot provide a point of view on a current member of that party? If that's the case, quotations from *all* previous members should be removed. Would you like the page references from Latham's Diary?
The material has weight as it has been reported from the FIRST PERSON. It is reported by someone who was at the meeting and one of the main players of the meeting. I trust you are not suggesting all first person material should be removed. It is indeed factual. No libel case has been raised regarding the written material.
It can be considered neutral as it has been published (without challange) by someone who no longer has any political interest or benefit to be gained from it's publication.
(Stirling Taylor 11:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
I don't agree with the suggestion that Mark Latham's allegation about Kevin Rudd "burst into tears" has weight in an encyclopedic biography. It's not relevant. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 11:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Photo should be removed
The photo of Rudd and his son should be removed - there must be tens of thousands of photos available of Kevin Rudd, why should one of him with his son be up there? The family of politicians should not be included, they did not run for public office. Sad mouse 17:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- feel free to upload one of these tens of thousands of available photos, I think you will find it harder than you think. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 10:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- find me three (or even two or one) other images with similar permissions to use freely. kgo. Timeshift 10:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Latest image
I think for duplication's sake, it's a good idea to have the latest image on Rudd's page with the crop of the last image on Rudd's page on the 2007 election page. My 2c. Timeshift 12:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
New Image
May i say thank you to whoever uploaded the new kevin rudd image. Its much nicer! (58.107.165.52 04:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC))
Whitewash?
Much as I'm loathe to agree with Andrew Bolt, this article really looks like a whitewash to me. The only criticism I can see is from Tony Abbott over RU486. How about some of the other criticisms: Dr. Death,[1] glass jaw,[2] strip club, questionable decisions to avoid wedge politics,[3] wife's (alleged) business conduct[4]? Peter Ballard 05:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- Go for it... keeping in mind that the article has to comply with wikipedia policies not Bolt's righteous fantasy world. I don't think avoiding wedge politics could be considered questionable though considering how badly the ALP has been screwed by wedge politics in previous elections. I would also hesitate about the strip club/glass jaw stuff for notability reasons and if business conduct stuff is mentioned Rudd's wife has her own article. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 06:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- ^^^ I agree with every word of this. For the record, this page has been directly linked here, written 31 October (see here for revision). I can only assume this was what PB was referring to? Timeshift 08:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm planning to have a more thorough look at this page and what else could be gainfully added to it after I'm finished with uni for the year. That should be early November, by which point the election should be called and there'll be more traffic here anyway. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- Here's someone with a vested interest doing some real whitewashing. Timeshift 01:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm planning to have a more thorough look at this page and what else could be gainfully added to it after I'm finished with uni for the year. That should be early November, by which point the election should be called and there'll be more traffic here anyway. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- ^^^ I agree with every word of this. For the record, this page has been directly linked here, written 31 October (see here for revision). I can only assume this was what PB was referring to? Timeshift 08:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)