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::::Yep, Newimpartial explains as well as I could what's wrong with "gender critical", though I do think my edit summary was clear enough. Onto the next point: "criticism" isn't appropriate (death threats, say, are not criticism), but neither is "attacks" in our own words. Bit clunky to say {{tq|what ''The Times'' deemed to be "attacks" on Stock}} but it's the only thing I can think of. Very unclear from the source ''who'' specifically Falkner is commenting about (maybe that's intentional on the part of Falkner, or ''The Times''). Is there a longer quote by Falkner that makes clear what she is talking about? — [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]] ('''[[User talk:Bilorv|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]''') 19:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
::::Yep, Newimpartial explains as well as I could what's wrong with "gender critical", though I do think my edit summary was clear enough. Onto the next point: "criticism" isn't appropriate (death threats, say, are not criticism), but neither is "attacks" in our own words. Bit clunky to say {{tq|what ''The Times'' deemed to be "attacks" on Stock}} but it's the only thing I can think of. Very unclear from the source ''who'' specifically Falkner is commenting about (maybe that's intentional on the part of Falkner, or ''The Times''). Is there a longer quote by Falkner that makes clear what she is talking about? — [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]] ('''[[User talk:Bilorv|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]''') 19:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::The student group's statement, that has received public support from staff members, doesn't include any "death threats". If Falkner wasn't referring to anything the student group or academics at the University of Sussex have said or done, but something else, she should have made that clear. In any event, we shouldn't pay much attention to random comments on the Internet; anyone can claim to receive "death threats", and TERF groups have a long history of (often baselessly) interpreting any random comments on social media that they don't like as "death threats" and using it as anecdotal evidence in support of their views. The main issue in this case is the demand by the student group (without any death threats) and the response to it. --[[User:Amanda A. Brant|Amanda A. Brant]] ([[User talk:Amanda A. Brant|talk]]) 21:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
:::::The student group's statement, that has received public support from staff members, doesn't include any "death threats". If Falkner wasn't referring to anything the student group or academics at the University of Sussex have said or done, but something else, she should have made that clear. In any event, we shouldn't pay much attention to random comments on the Internet; anyone can claim to receive "death threats", and TERF groups have a long history of (often baselessly) interpreting any random comments on social media that they don't like as "death threats" and using it as anecdotal evidence in support of their views. The main issue in this case is the demand by the student group (without any death threats) and the response to it. --[[User:Amanda A. Brant|Amanda A. Brant]] ([[User talk:Amanda A. Brant|talk]]) 21:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::As I've alluded to in another section, The Times' coverage of this has been very sensationalistic. According to [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9c463e40-2ac7-11ec-a1c0-649c1183346f?shareToken=bb5f89aa08ae6890a44946c08d6bfb6f The Times] Stock has been told by the Sussex Police that she {{tq|"must keep off campus and teach solely online because of threats to her personal safety."}}. However according to [https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2021/10/12/trans-row-professor-accuses-union-of-ending-her-career-at-sussex-university/ Brighton and Hove News], published an hour later, the Sussex Police said "We have established that police have not advised the victim in this case to stay away from the university campus." [[WP:RSP]] says that {{tq|"The Times, including its sister paper The Sunday Times, is considered generally reliable."}}, however I'd argue that in this case their reporting is anything but accurate. I would be inclined to treat any reporting by the Times as suspect. [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 21:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:11, 13 October 2021
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Allegations of transphobia
A section of this article alleges that Stock has made transphobic comments and tweets and that this has caused some controversy. My position is that Stock's "critical views on the UK Gender Recognition Act and trans self-identification" are mentioned at the beginning of the article, with three supporting citations, and as long as this isn't a real controversy that garners sufficient mainstream media attention or in some way affects Stock's work or influence, it need not be reiterated, certainly not to the extent that it is at the moment, with a full paragraph that is practically as long as the rest of the article. Additionally, the material I am referring to lacks sufficient citations, and the sources provided are not impartial—a tweet Stock has made, and a story in an LGBTQ publication—hardly neutral or strong sources that would suggest any sort of controversy worth mentioning. The user who has added this material has been insistent on reasserting their edits, so I'm putting it up here for discussion. If this receives no response within a week, I will delete the offending paragraph once more. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 00:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
A mobile user edited the paragraph later, leaving a sentence about toilets. I reverted to content of neutral tone version from Revision as of 01:05, 2 January 2021 by Revirvlkodlaku which provides reference to the debate I describe below in Talk. I regard this version as a first draft btw, but the current choice is whether the article should contain short, general, neutral tone statement. Mattymmoo (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- Have reverted your edit per WP:BLP. Twitter is not a sufficient source. Nor is it appropriate to label a subject without any reference to sources - that does not qualify as a neutral tone. Best to wait for any discussion to play out here before making further edits. AutumnKing (talk) 10:25, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I've done some work to add section headings and more detail to these sections including additional references and new information.John Cummings (talk) 18:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
debate on sex and gender is hindered by labelling participants
The debate about sex and gender is taking place in many fora, often with very poorly defined boundaries. This debate bears on National legislation in the UK, in Scotland, on the regulation of sport, schools & prisons, and on social conduct and language. That debate should be covered, if possible, elsewhere on Wikipedia, but can be referred to here as Stock is a leading participant. I support the stance taken by [[User talk:Revirvlkodlaku|talk] , the paragraph should be deleted. Mattymmoo (talk) 13:07, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. CatCafe (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- What precisely are the two of you agreeing about? What are you proposing? Newimpartial (talk) 11:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Debate on sex and gender is hindered by labelling participants. Why does this even have to be stated? Certainly we can do better than say that person is not on our team. I was surprised when I came here that somehow the article did not attempt to weaken her status because of her positions. That Wikipedia had not completely caved for fear of no longer being part of the cool kids. I was surprised by the fact in this one case, Wikipedia resisted folding again to its weaknesses. Let's go for two in a row. Nanabozho (talk) 18:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Transgender identity
Stock has notable views with transgender or gender identity not people according to most sources. So I am unsure why it is reverted back to her having an issue with people. Which people? This source says "However, although Stock rejects gender identity theory, she doesn’t reject trans people."[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by CatCafe (talk • contribs)
- The section on this in the body is sourced to The Argus, in which the relevant passage is as follows:
“However, many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”
Dr Stock vehemently denies that she opposes trans rights.
She said: “I gladly and vocally assert the rights of trans people to live their lives free from fear, violence, harassment or any discrimination.
“I think that discussing female rights is compatible with defending these trans rights.
“This has nothing to do with any particular trans people – it is about a general structural issue in our society and how to deal with it.”
- Neither Stock nor Argus invokes the concept of "identity" or "identity theory" here - she describes it as a
general structural issue in our society
that is concerned withmany trans women
in particular. That sounds to me like an issue with (certain) transgender people. Newimpartial (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)- Putting "people" is a rhetorical trick used by activists where they conflate their demands for specific policies and their metaphysical ideas with "people", thus allowing them to tar any critics of those specific policies and ideas as attackers of transgender people. Never mind that some transgender people, like Buck Angel, Blaire White, Debbie Hayton, etc. disagree with these unelected activists and self-proclaimed "allies". It is thus POV and inappropriate. Nothing quoted above supports this terminology - quite the opposite, e.g. as noted here. Any fair reading of the sources shows that Stock's issue isn't with "people" per se, but the legal and societal doctrine of gender self-identification - that male/female/other are a matter of self-proclamation only. Crossroads -talk- 20:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Nah those and other sources confirm it's about identity or rights - not people, I concur with Crossroads edit and explanation here[2]. CatCafe (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Crossroads, rather than charging in on the steed of rhetoric, maybe you could deal with the example I provided at length, in which the
doctrine of gender self-identification
is not invoked at all. And as far as I can tell, your strawman argument about activists and celebrities has nothing to do with this article. - And CatCafe, Stock is specifically disclaiming that the issue is about
rights
, isn't she? She is saying it is about people - but not particular trans people, rathermany trans women
. Who are normally understood by nom-philosophers also to be people. Newimpartial (talk) 20:34, 8 October 2021 (UTC)- I take that as you making the argument that 'Transgender women' is a more appropriate phrase than 'Transgender people'. Point taken, but I still believe the sources are better reflected using the term 'identity' or similar. CatCafe (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- No, "transgender women" are a subset of "transgender people". Other arguments made by Stock apply to transgender people other than transgender women. Newimpartial (talk) 20:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Absolutely, and even in the source quoted above, she says that
This has nothing to do with any particular trans people – it is about a general structural issue in our society and how to deal with it.
Not people, but something structural. This article saysHer current research project focuses on conflicts of interests between trans women and natal women, and how to resolve them. Here, she examines arguments against expanding the concept of “trans women” to include anyone self-identifying as such.
It's about gender self-ID. This book review saysIt was also a statement of a new orthodoxy, one in which sex gives way to feeling, and feeling trumps facts. This is the central argument of Kathleen Stock’s controversial new book...
This book review shows she speaks ofgender identity theory
. These are the first three I checked; there are plenty more. It is clear that the sources speak of her as criticizing the concept of gender self-identification. Crossroads -talk- 20:52, 8 October 2021 (UTC)- Crossroads, did you read the passage I quoted above? It placed your quote in context - in that instance, she is concerned specifically about
many trans women
and their role. - I have already documented that the first of the points made in this article is not about gender self-identification (a concept that doesn't even come up in the relevant section). Do I have to go through each of the other points supported in the article as well, or will you accept reality: that
gender identification
isn't the only aspect RS indicate her as being concerned with? Newimpartial (talk) 20:59, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Crossroads, did you read the passage I quoted above? It placed your quote in context - in that instance, she is concerned specifically about
- Absolutely, and even in the source quoted above, she says that
- No, "transgender women" are a subset of "transgender people". Other arguments made by Stock apply to transgender people other than transgender women. Newimpartial (talk) 20:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- I take that as you making the argument that 'Transgender women' is a more appropriate phrase than 'Transgender people'. Point taken, but I still believe the sources are better reflected using the term 'identity' or similar. CatCafe (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Crossroads, rather than charging in on the steed of rhetoric, maybe you could deal with the example I provided at length, in which the
- Nah those and other sources confirm it's about identity or rights - not people, I concur with Crossroads edit and explanation here[2]. CatCafe (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Putting "people" is a rhetorical trick used by activists where they conflate their demands for specific policies and their metaphysical ideas with "people", thus allowing them to tar any critics of those specific policies and ideas as attackers of transgender people. Never mind that some transgender people, like Buck Angel, Blaire White, Debbie Hayton, etc. disagree with these unelected activists and self-proclaimed "allies". It is thus POV and inappropriate. Nothing quoted above supports this terminology - quite the opposite, e.g. as noted here. Any fair reading of the sources shows that Stock's issue isn't with "people" per se, but the legal and societal doctrine of gender self-identification - that male/female/other are a matter of self-proclamation only. Crossroads -talk- 20:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes Newimpartial. I'm well aware of what a subset is, duh. You just seemed to be making a point about 'women'. I don't think much of any of the above you present supports you want for it to say 'people'. CatCafe (talk) 21:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Did you read anything I quoted? Her argument even there is about those trans women's self-identification. Self-ID/gender identity is how RS, versus your original research, relay her viewpoints. Certainly "people" doesn't cover her other points about self-ID. It is pure POV framing. Crossroads -talk- 21:06, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
, Crossroads, please take a deep breath and read my comment above where I quoted the passage surrounding (and including) your selected quotation. The Argus - the first RS we cite in the section - does not attribute the views of Stock's (that we are citing it for, on the issue I'm quoting her on) to self-ID
. I'm not the one doing WP:OR or POV framing
here. I am simply reading the source we use. What is it with you and ASPERSIONS, anyway?
I also don't understand what you mean by "people" doesn't cover her other points about self-ID
. If she held these views, but not concerning people, do you think she would have attracted the criticism she has? Her views about trans people and societal structures are rather the point, not something more abstract. Or at least, the RS say so. Newimpartial (talk) 21:14, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- And I'm saying that when sources summarize Stock's views, they describe it as a gender self-ID matter. Fixating on a phrase plucked from "The Argus" doesn't change this. Your proposed text is like if we said "X has been criticized for his views on Black lives" in an article about someone who actually opposed defunding the police. The result is activist editorializing. Crossroads -talk- 21:25, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- That isn't a sensible parallel. The RS for this article note several controversial views of Stock's. Some are about self-ID and some aren't, but they are all about transgender people. I am not fixating on
a phrase plucked from the Argus
, I am evaluating the sources as a whole. Newimpartial (talk) 21:31, 8 October 2021 (UTC)- Which claims and sources aren't about gender self-ID? And regarding the Argus, what is "general structural issue in our society" about if not gender self-ID (per context)? Crossroads -talk- 21:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- From the current article,
Stock has called for trans women who have male genitalia to be excluded from women's changing rooms, characterising them as "still males" who may be sexually attracted to women.
That's not self-ID (per the source given). - Likewise, our PinkNews source points out,
In January, 600 philosophers signed a letter criticising the decision to give Stock an OBE. In the letter, the academics expressed concern about a “tendency to mistake transphobic fear mongering for valuable scholarship, and attacks on already marginalised people for courageous exercises of free speech”
. That isn't limited to the discussion of self-ID. There is clearly more at stake. Newimpartial (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)- That source doesn't say it's "not self-ID". Non-op trans women in women's changing rooms clearly is self-ID - they are in there because of self-ID. And PinkNews, itself a biased source, there attributes that view to the letter itself. Crossroads -talk- 22:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Re:
Non-op trans women in women's changing rooms clearly is self-ID - they are in there because of self-ID
- that's nonsense, or at least OR. There are lots of legal frameworks, including the one I live under, that "allow non-OP trans women in women's changing rooms" without being based on self-ID in the sense Stock discusses in her work. So you're inserting terms like "non-OP trans women" that neither Stock nor our sources use, then twisting them to make a claim that neither Stock nor the sources make. As I said, nonsense, or at least OR. - As far as the philosophers' letter is concerned, my point is that the RS documents that they are concerned about views of Stock's that extend well beyond "self-ID". It is these concerns that define the issues to be reflected in this article - in fact, other people's concerns about Stock's work is a major component of her Notability by now, and if anything is under- represented in the article. Newimpartial (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- When we get to specifics, the crux of the controversy is 'what is a woman?', gender-identity stuff. Those views are what the open letter speaks of:
Stock is best-known in recent years for her trans-exclusionary public and academic discourse on sex and gender, especially for opposition to [amendments to*] the UK Gender Recognition Act and the importance of self-identification to establish gender identity...* Erratum: the original version of this letter incorrectly stated that Stock opposes the UK’s Gender Recognition Act. This was an error; it should have said that Stock is well-known for opposing amendments to the Gender Recognition Act that would have made it easier for people to self-identify their gender.
[3] Crossroads -talk- 22:47, 8 October 2021 (UTC) - I added sources here. Crossroads -talk- 23:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- When we get to specifics, the crux of the controversy is 'what is a woman?', gender-identity stuff. Those views are what the open letter speaks of:
- Re:
- That source doesn't say it's "not self-ID". Non-op trans women in women's changing rooms clearly is self-ID - they are in there because of self-ID. And PinkNews, itself a biased source, there attributes that view to the letter itself. Crossroads -talk- 22:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- From the current article,
- Which claims and sources aren't about gender self-ID? And regarding the Argus, what is "general structural issue in our society" about if not gender self-ID (per context)? Crossroads -talk- 21:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- That isn't a sensible parallel. The RS for this article note several controversial views of Stock's. Some are about self-ID and some aren't, but they are all about transgender people. I am not fixating on
@CatCafe:, @Crossroads:, @Newimpartial: could the three of you please stop engaging in an edit war. I understand that there is a disagreement upon the wording. I am trying to read, catch up, and figure what the sources that are being used are saying so that I can contribute, however the constant revert/addition/revert cycle is making this difficult. Thanks. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:16, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- I just added supporting cite to the lede because Newimpartial is putting CN tags there. The lede currently looks fine and a good reflection of the rest of the article IMO. There should be no need for the cites in the lede that Newimpartial is demanding, but here we are. CatCafe (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Removed.
Crossroads tried to use a SPS reflecting the subject's POV to define what is controversial about their views. That doesn't work at Graham Linehan, and it doesn't work here either. It is a basic NPOV and ABOUTSELF fail. Reliable sources are required.Newimpartial (talk) 23:45, 8 October 2021 (UTC) explanation below Newimpartial (talk) 00:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)- Strike your falsehoods. Which of these three ([4][5][6]) is an SPS? None of them are; they are all top-quality published RS. And I never did any such thing at Graham Linehan either. Crossroads -talk- 23:52, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Do keep in mind that rejecting clearly good sources is a sign of WP:Tendentious editing; see WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH and WP:REMOVECITE. Crossroads -talk- 23:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- I explain this situation below; the self-published source was added in the same sequence of edits, and I mistook it as being about the same issue (and mistook where the quotation for "gender identification" came from, since I also saw the phrase on her faculty page). Anyway, I apologize for my confusion. Newimpartial (talk) 00:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. Crossroads -talk- 00:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- You do realize that none of the sources you've added supports "transgender identification", the phrase you've been revert-warring into the article? Or do you? Newimpartial (talk) 00:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. Crossroads -talk- 00:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- I explain this situation below; the self-published source was added in the same sequence of edits, and I mistook it as being about the same issue (and mistook where the quotation for "gender identification" came from, since I also saw the phrase on her faculty page). Anyway, I apologize for my confusion. Newimpartial (talk) 00:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Removed.
- Ok. Taking the lead from revision as of 23:17 UTC, 8 October 2021, the contentious sentence appears to be
She has gained public attention for her views on transgender identification.
Prior to the edit war, per the revision at 20:36 UTC 7 October 2021 the sentence readShe has gained public attention and criticism for her views on transgender people.
- In the revision from 7 October, the sentence was uncited however was supported by the section labelled "Views on transgender people". As of the 8 October revision, that section has also been changed to "Views on transgender identification".
- The crux of the disagreement appears to be whether the criticisms of Stock are because of her views on transgender people, as per 7 October, or on transgender identification, as per 8 October.
- Starting with an analysis of the sources used in the "Views on" section on 7 October, Stock's own words are largely limited to the area of transgender identification. The criticisms however are not. In The Argus[ref 9] the criticism is a quote from an activist and refers to trans people. In The Spectator [16] criticism is restricted to the single unattributed quote "transphobic bigot". Citations 10-15 do not mention or contain any critical views. Citation 18 is a repetition of citation 14. Citations 19-28 deal with Stock being appointed as a trustee of the LGB Alliance, and criticism of that organisation. PinkNews [29] says that Stock
has faced considerable backlash over her views on gender identity.
in the opening paragraph, and in quotes from the student protest against her say that she is atransphobe
and that she isespousing a bastardised version of ‘radical feminism’ that excludes and endangers trans people”.
. The Times [30] contains the same quotes from the same group of students, and is used in the same manner. Citation numbers in this paragraph are based on 7 October revision linked above. - The citations used in the 8 October revision are the same, except they have been renumbered.
- Next, looking at citations for the sentence in the lead as of 8 October. The Guardian [3] links criticism of Stock against trans people, per the open letter relating to her OBE. The BBC [4] limits criticism of Stock to transphobia. The Times Higher Education [5] also limits criticism of Stock to transphobia. Citation numbers in this paragraph are based on the 8th October revision linked above.
- So, based on an analysis of the sources, criticism of Stock is either generalised to transphobia, or per both commentary on the OBE open letter and comments made by the students currently protesting against her, trans people. In my opinion, based on reading the sources in the article, where Stock is being criticised according to those criticising her, it is either generalised transphobia, or it is specifically against trans people. The opinion that the criticism is because of or limited to her views on transgender identification comes from Stock herself. Per WP:NPOV we have a duty to cover both points. As such I don't think either wording of the lead is properly balanced. Likewise I believe the "Views on" section heading is somewhat reductionistic, given that while Stock asserts she is writing only about transgender identification, those criticising her take a much broader view of the situation.
- As such, I would propose the following change to the lead. "She has gained public attention for her views on transgender identification[3][4][5], which have been criticised as transphobic[22][23]". I am unsure of what change to make to the "Views on" section heading. Please note that the numbers in brackets for this suggestion refer to the citations as ordered on the 8th October revision linked above. They may have changed since. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes OK, but now it has been pointed out that the phrase 'gender identification' rather than 'transgender identification' better reflects the sources [3],[4]&[5]. Is the lede the best place for the criticism i.e. "...been criticised as transphobic[22][23]", or would this be best placed in the body? CatCafe (talk) 00:51, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Re "gender identification" v "transgender identification", I saw that discussion happened while I was reading the sources. It's an easy one to fix in that sentence. As for criticism, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, so it needs to be in both. Given that the Sussex University subsection already mentions how she is being criticised for her views on trans people, I believe adjusting the wording of the first paragraph in the "Views on" section is most appropriate. Proposal: "Stock has called for trans women who have male genitalia to be excluded from women's changing rooms, characterising them as "still males" who may be sexually attracted to women. For these views she has been criticised as being transphobic, although she has denied opposing trans rights, saying..." Everything after the ellipsis is kept as it currently is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sideswipe9th (talk • contribs) 01:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- "Transgender people" was first inserted in this edit and was first challenged in these edits, having been there for only 2 hours and 42 minutes. That's no "prior to the edit war"; it has never been stable like that or had consensus.
- This source analysis seems to be directly compiling the words/claims of criticism by Stock's detractors as quoted in sources, and arguing how to describe the criticism based on that. That is WP:Original research and WP:Synthesis; we should be relying on how WP:Secondary sources describe the dispute as a whole, not just the words of her opponents that they report on. This is especially since, as you note,
Stock's own words are largely limited to the area of transgender identification. The criticisms however are not.
Especially as a BLP, we should be sticking to the secondary description of the issue as a whole, not doing our own compilation of what critics say, since their criticisms diverge from what she actually says apparently. - "Transphobia" is listed at WP:LABEL, which
are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.
(Emphasis added.) I'm not seeing that threshold met, and even if it were, that would need to be attributed, not just a WP:WEASEL "criticized as". - "Gender identification" instead of "transgender identification" is fine. Crossroads -talk- 03:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Stating that Stock
has gained public attention for her views on gender identification
is still both vacuous and WEASEL language, however, since it still gives the reader no idea where she stands on these issues or what form ofattention
they have received. This has primarily been critical attention, including calls from both students and her academic peers for her employment to be terminated - that is what the sources actually indicate, not that she has blithely "gained public attention for her views". Choke me on my own vomit, why don't you. Newimpartial (talk) 05:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)- I'd be fine with something like "She has been the subject of controversy for her views on gender identification." The calls to be fired belong in the body but not in the lead; since that is a currently highly-active campaign, putting that in the lead seems like boosting that campaign, which is inappropriate per WP:NOTADVOCACY. "Controversy" covers that plenty well. Crossroads -talk- 14:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get that the objective of the campaigns doesn't belong in the lede. I think "subject of controversy for her opposition to gender self-identification" might work: at least that would indicate the main point she is making, to which her critics object. Newimpartial (talk) 15:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Firstly WP:NOR does not apply to talk pages, as it would make it impossible to evaluate article content and sources. Secondly this is explicitly not WP:SYNTH. We had this discussion on another article's talk page about what synth is and is not. Synth is combining of two or more sources to reach a conclusion not supported by either, A + B = C. Of the three sources recently added to the lead, two of them (BBC and Guardian) both state in their own voice that Stock is being accused of transphobia. The THE article uses transphobic in an anonymous quote.
- With respect to the sources in the "Views on" section, the reason I said
Stock's own words are largely limited to the area of transgender identification
is because the majority of the sources in that section are either written by Stock (The Economist), an uncritical interview with Stock (The Badger, The Guardian second cite ), or present Stock's words in an uncritical way (The Guardian first cite, The Standard, The Spectator). Outside of the subsection on the campaign by students at Sussex University, the only two sources that even mention criticism of Stock are The Telegraph and The Sunday Times, both of which try to dismiss it as propaganda by activists and Stonewall. - Having done a review of the sources in the article, the balance of the sources is currently skewed towards either pro-Stock or uncritical of Stock. Now that's not unexpected for a relatively small article that's been expanded recently, but it is something we should address.
- It's also important to note that 600 of her peers said that
"Stock is best-known in recent years for her trans-exclusionary public and academic discourse on sex and gender, especially for opposition to [amendments to*] the UK Gender Recognition Act and the importance of self-identification to establish gender identity, and for advocating that trans women should be excluded from places like women’s locker rooms or shelters."
in an open letter written after her OBE award. That would not happen if her views were not controversial, and I would suggest that the chief objection at this time is because of a lack of balance in the sources. - To sum up, it is correct in saying that transphobia is best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources. However at the present time we have a relatively biased source selection that does not mention the criticism at all. Of the RS that do mention criticism, they all state that she has been accused of transphobia. Given the widespread criticism of Stock, especially by her peers, we should address the balance issue in the sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:49, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think we can agree that if RS are missing from the article, they should be added. The distribution of views in RS may not always be what we expect, though, and whether a wiki article has POV/bias is defined based on the sources, so it may not be that those sources are unrepresentative. They may be, or may not be. Regarding 'NOR on talk pages', when I speak of NOR I am speaking of proposed article text. Crossroads -talk- 04:26, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get that the objective of the campaigns doesn't belong in the lede. I think "subject of controversy for her opposition to gender self-identification" might work: at least that would indicate the main point she is making, to which her critics object. Newimpartial (talk) 15:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with something like "She has been the subject of controversy for her views on gender identification." The calls to be fired belong in the body but not in the lead; since that is a currently highly-active campaign, putting that in the lead seems like boosting that campaign, which is inappropriate per WP:NOTADVOCACY. "Controversy" covers that plenty well. Crossroads -talk- 14:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Stating that Stock
- Yes OK, but now it has been pointed out that the phrase 'gender identification' rather than 'transgender identification' better reflects the sources [3],[4]&[5]. Is the lede the best place for the criticism i.e. "...been criticised as transphobic[22][23]", or would this be best placed in the body? CatCafe (talk) 00:51, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Sentence on published works in lede
Newimpartial, what's wrong? You add a CN tag on the lede demanding new sources, and then I make a minor edit and add a source as you demand one, then you delete it. Re the following sentence: "She has published on aesthetics, fiction, imagination, sexual objectification, sex, gender, and sexual orientation."[7]. CatCafe (talk) 23:54, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- I mistook the self-published reference that you added as being a response to my failed verification tag. You are quite correct that the ABOUTSELF source is fine for the sentence you quote, but that wasn't the point where verification had failed, per my tag. As I say, I was confused by this. Sorry. Newimpartial (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
See also David Miller
There appears to be some similarities between the cases of Kathleen Stock and David Miller. The two points of similarity are, firstly, the reference to the need to protect "academic freedom" as a defence against action by the university and, secondly, the criticism of each academic coming from the student body. Here are some quotes from each persons Wiki page: Kathleen Stock:
- Equalities minister Kemi Badenoch, barrister Allison Bailey, and writer Julie Bindel spoke in Stock's defence, while vice-chancellor Adam Tickell condemned the campaign as a threat to academic freedom.
- A student with a transgender girlfriend said: "People I love very much are trans and are clearly upset by Professor Stock. There is the matter of academic freedom but these things should have limits. If someone wanted to espouse racist rhetoric in a lecture hall, should they be allowed to because of academic freedom?"
- [Stock] said that months previously she had complained to the University of Sussex alleging it had failed to protect her and to safeguard her academic freedom.
- Oxford historian Selina Todd described Tickell's statement as paying " lip service to academic freedom while assuring students of the university's 'inclusivity'" and criticised the Universities and Colleges Union for their silence.
- The head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Baroness Falkner of Margravine, described the attacks on Stock as disgraceful and said further regulation is needed. She said: "The rights of trans people must of course be protected, but the attempt to silence academic freedom of expression is the opposite of what university life is about".
David Miller:
- In a statement, Bristol University said it did "not endorse the comments made by Professor David Miller about our Jewish students" and also said "Equally, we must balance the rights and often wide-ranging views of students and staff with institutional policies and national law concerning academic freedom and freedom of speech."
- A few days later, Daniel Finkelstein, in a column in The Times, wrote that "waywardness has a place in academic life" and was sceptical of the merits of "cancel culture" .
Burrobert (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Are there any reliable sources that make this connection? Otherwise, inserting the link seems like WP:OR to me. There is some guidance here: MOS:SEEALSO. AndyGordon (talk) 14:38, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Not directly relevant. Better placed in the article on Academic Freedom. Should be removed from here Mattymmoo (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- There is no policy stating that the See also section should only contain links that have been made by reliable sources. "Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense". Burrobert (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Still, the core content policies including WP:OR apply to all Wikipedia content, and the choice of "See also" links is part of the content. AndyGordon (talk) 16:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Are you saying we can't use "editorial judgment and common sense" because they involve original research? Burrobert (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Dear @Burrobert, yes. Content policies like Wikipedia:No original research need to be at the heart of good editorial judgment. But also I wanted to apologise, as when I pointed you to MOS:SEEALSO I should have added that it was all that I could see specifically about "see also" and the phrase "editorial judgment and common sense" is not very informative. AndyGordon (talk) 18:37, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Are you saying we can't use "editorial judgment and common sense" because they involve original research? Burrobert (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Still, the core content policies including WP:OR apply to all Wikipedia content, and the choice of "See also" links is part of the content. AndyGordon (talk) 16:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- There is no policy stating that the See also section should only contain links that have been made by reliable sources. "Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense". Burrobert (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
WP:OR includes: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. So far, a source for what links Stock to Miller has not been provided. Mattymmoo (talk) 18:01, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Better-source tag on Lesbian and Gay News
@CatCafe: just to let you know I've reverted the revert. Per consensus at RSN archive 334, LGN is an unreliable source. Editors need to check both WP:RSP and WP:RSN when determining if a source is or is not reliable. WP:RSP is only for sources that are frequently discussed. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- OK are we saying that LGN are not reliable when stating Stock's sexual-preference and what the University LGBT and Women's groups said against the VC? I will remove them for you.CatCafe (talk) 01:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Multiple questions here. With respect to the University LGBT and Woman's Officer statements, that claim appears accurate and verifiable per primary sources. With respect to the quote from Janice Turner, that does not appear in the LGN article.
- The issue however is that the source itself is unreliable. Please see Template:Better source needed for why it's appropriate right now to put a better-source tag into the citation, so that a reliable source stating the same claim can be substituted in when one is found. I'll be doing a search some time tomorrow for this, but that tag serves as a note for any other editor to find a reliable source that can be used in its place. Until a better source can be found, or if there is no better source, it is better to leave the statement from the USSU in place. I'd remove citation 15 from the sentence quoting Janice Turner however as that's not verifiable. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:02, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- @CatCafe: please stop disruptive editing. For now the Template:Better source needed is the correct way to handle this situation until a better source can be found, or if after a search no such better sources then those statements can be removed. For now, leave it alone and search for a better source to slot in as a replacement. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please don't accuse me of disruptive editing when I revert my own edits after I receive legitimate criticism. I would consider that you are disruptive editing when you refuse to allow me to revert my own edits. It you want to add the text under discussion please find a RS. CatCafe (talk) 02:08, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Find me the policy that says reverting my own edits is disruptive editing. You criticised my addition - I removed it. Please stop the accusations in edit notes. CatCafe (talk) 02:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately due to time zones, it is 3am where I live. I will be searching for a better source for this tomorrow after I wake up. However the purpose for the better-source tag is so that any editor can preform that search and make the necessary change. Note that better-source is different from Template:Unreliable source?. Unreliable source is when a claim made is suspect. Better-source is when a claim made is not suspect, but the source of the claim is. The statement that USSU made in response to their vice chancellor is verifiable per primary sources. Namely the USSU Twitter account. However the secondary source currently used for that statement is unreliable. It's fine to leave the statement in for now, pending a search for a better source.
- WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, point 5. Per WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM
Instead of removing article content that is poorly presented, consider cleaning up the writing, formatting or sourcing on the spot, or tagging it as necessary.
I have tagged the problematic part of the article content, so that I or another editor can correct it later. This is proper policy in this situation. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC)\- User:Sideswipe9th you are being unreasonable. You criticised my work and you put on CN tags. Then you convinced me that my sources were not RS, so I removed my own additions and cite and I'm in in the process of finding new sources to satisfy you. But then you are reverting my reverts of my own work and putting back nonRS. Why do you want to reintroduce back the nonRS you've criticised - that makes little sense considering you want it gone. Unless you are wanting to editwar? Now you want to make official complaints about me. Please realise that I'm trying to edit to fix the problem you raised, and you're doing the reverting. CatCafe (talk) 02:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- I do not want the claim gone, I want the source fixed. I did not criticise your work, I criticised the source. There is a large difference. I fully support the additions you've been making to the article over the last few days, they're good. And noting the statements by the USSU LGBT+ society and SU Women's officer is important given what is happening on the Sussex campus right now. The issue is not with the content, it's with the attribution of the content. The purpose of the Template:Better source needed tag is so that any editor can see that there's a problem with a source, but it's not related to the claim the source is making, so that a more appropriate source can be found. The claim is verifiable through primary sources, the secondary source that was in use is unreliable. Leave the claim be, but fix the source problem. If a reliable secondary source cannot be found for that claim, then state it here before removing the tag and the source. Until that has been done, it is appropriate to leave the better source tag in place, so that multiple editors can see that there is a specific problem with that source, and not the claim that the source is making. One editor may not find a better source, but multiple editors searching for it might.
- The reason why I made the complaint is because the actions taken are making fixing this one small source problem far more difficult than they need to be. I thought it was a WP:3RR violation, clearly I erred in the interpretation of that rule. I had tried to resolve the situation here, however you kept the same removal which was not necessary. The statement is fine. The only thing that needs fixed is the source being used for it. That's all. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes you erred IMO as well. And I found one new source for you you instantaneously - even after the Women's Officer had deleted her tweet for whatever reason. Now perhaps you can find an additional source re the LGBT+ Society comment - otherwise half the sentence (I added) needs removing. I'm trying to help you out here. CatCafe (talk) 03:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- User:Sideswipe9th you are being unreasonable. You criticised my work and you put on CN tags. Then you convinced me that my sources were not RS, so I removed my own additions and cite and I'm in in the process of finding new sources to satisfy you. But then you are reverting my reverts of my own work and putting back nonRS. Why do you want to reintroduce back the nonRS you've criticised - that makes little sense considering you want it gone. Unless you are wanting to editwar? Now you want to make official complaints about me. Please realise that I'm trying to edit to fix the problem you raised, and you're doing the reverting. CatCafe (talk) 02:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Find me the policy that says reverting my own edits is disruptive editing. You criticised my addition - I removed it. Please stop the accusations in edit notes. CatCafe (talk) 02:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please don't accuse me of disruptive editing when I revert my own edits after I receive legitimate criticism. I would consider that you are disruptive editing when you refuse to allow me to revert my own edits. It you want to add the text under discussion please find a RS. CatCafe (talk) 02:08, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- @CatCafe: please stop disruptive editing. For now the Template:Better source needed is the correct way to handle this situation until a better source can be found, or if after a search no such better sources then those statements can be removed. For now, leave it alone and search for a better source to slot in as a replacement. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- OK are we saying that LGN are not reliable when stating Stock's sexual-preference and what the University LGBT and Women's groups said against the VC? I will remove them for you.CatCafe (talk) 01:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Alright. So the only source I can find for the Sussex Uni LGBT Society response to the vice chancellor is a Twitter post they put out on 9 October. This doesn't appear to have been picked up by any reliable secondary sources. With regards to the Student's Union at Sussex, they put out a statement on 8 October on their website, although I can't find a secondary source for this either at least in English. I know there's one French language secondary source currently in the article, but I'm not fluent enough in any second language to check non-English sources. Given that the women's officer at USSU has since deleted her post and USSU Twiter account for some reason, I'd suggest we link to the statement on the USSU website instead of a archived Twitter post.
On the topic of last night. Removing those statements in that manner was kind of a nuclear option. As I said before, the issue wasn't with the content in the article, it was with the source being used to support the content. The content didn't need to be removed at the time, all it needed was a Template:Better source needed until one or more editors could preform that search. I would have done it at the time, but it was late and I was getting ready for bed. As such I tagged that source in the hope that any editor could have seen the issue and resolved it before I woke up, without needing to remove the content until we could be sure that there were no reliable secondary sources for it. If it hadn't been resolved by the time I woke up, I'd have taken a look myself when I had the time/energy to do so. That is established procedure in these circumstances as the sentence itself was not contentious and was verifiable as factual based off primary sources. As such, I saw the wholesale removal of those sentences as disruptive. I tried to discuss it with you @CatCafe:, however for some reason that's still unclear to me you preferred to remove the content entirely pending. When it appeared as though we were in an edit war, I did a quick read of the WP:3RR and thought that this was a clear cut violation. Obviously my interpretation of that rule differs from the admin who reviewed it. As such I apologise for getting it wrong and taking that action. It would help if I could understand why you wanted to proceed in that way, as it seems to me that it would make it difficult for more editors than ourselves to engage with fixing the sourcing. I hope that helps you understand why I took the actions I did last night, and I'd suggest that outside of helping me to understand why you felt removal was the only option (which may be a topic for your/my talk page and not here per WP:NOTAFORUM) we leave it here and move on. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes on all that, there seems not to be good sources for the sentence: "The university's LGBT+ society and the Student Union Women's Officer both criticised the Vice Chancellor's response" - but I note the next paragraph expands on the Student Unions position. So I have removed the said sentence and we can rely on the better sourced next paragraph. CatCafe (talk) 01:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- But not to be outdone editor Newimpartial, rather than contribute here, thinks it better to report me at ANI for doing this. I have invited Newimpartial to contribute and discuss here, and assist with RS needed, but so far they can't be bothered, preferring to have me reprimanded. CatCafe (talk) 01:16, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Campaign by students and reactions section
I've just done a first pass review on the reactions subsection to the ongoing campaign at Sussex university, removing and combining repetitive information, and re-ordering the paragraphs to better fit chronological order of events. I also clarified the distinction between comments made by the Sussex branch of the UCU from those made by the national organisation, as well as noting that the Sussex branch executive had received threats as a result of their statement. I'm still a little unhappy with the final paragraph, some of which would fit better in the first paragraph. Chiefly the statements by Baroness Falkner and Liz Truss, so I may take another pass at this later if no-one else does. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please note that CatCafe has been blocked for a week for 3RR, and so may not be available to comment for a while. Newimpartial (talk) 02:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I saw that, thanks. More just a note here to keep myself right given what happened over the last 24 hours here, as I don't want that edit to be seen as disruptive. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:36, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding CatCafe, Talk:Jessica Yaniv#Kiwi Farms drawing (for which reason he was also permanently blocked) is particularly illuminating. His edits come across (as many others have noted) as extremely biased and parts of this article previously gave the weird impression of being a hagiography. I suggest that we remove his recent biased edits. The article subject is primarily known for her anti-gender views and activism, and the current wording of the lead, which only refers to unspecified "views on gender identification", doesn't adequately summarise who she is or what she is known for. For example the letter signed by 600 academics (mostly philosophers) in response to the OBE should be mentioned; it received a huge amount of coverage and made her a well-known figure. We should also include something about the student protests and the UCU response, that Stock herself said "effectively ended" her career (so there's really no question that it's significant). --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 08:58, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Amanda A. Brant: you should comment on content, not contributor; additionally, "indefinite" is not "permanent", and I don't know why you're using he/him pronouns for CatCafe but I don't believe you're correct. — Bilorv (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Bilorv: pointing out that another editor has been indefinitely blocked from contributing to another article in these content areas (BLP and gender), for attempting to add a deeply abusive image is not a personal attack. Neither is pointing out that in light of their being temporarily fully blocked from Wikipedia that perhaps their recent edits should be checked to ensure no WP:NPOV violations. This is a contentious area, and ensuring the correct level of balance is a fine line to tread at the best of times. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Amanda A. Brant: you should comment on content, not contributor; additionally, "indefinite" is not "permanent", and I don't know why you're using he/him pronouns for CatCafe but I don't believe you're correct. — Bilorv (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
An attempt at summarising some of the key issues discussed in the article:
- Kathleen Mary Linn Stock OBE (born November 1972) is a professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex.[1] She has published on aesthetics, fiction, imagination, sexual objectification, sex, gender, and sexual orientation.[2] She has gained public attention for her views on gender identification.[3][4][5] Stock received broad media attention when she was criticised for "transphobic fear mongering" in a letter signed by 600 philosophers and other academics, who objected to her receiving an OBE. In October 2021, a student campaign calling for her dismissal received significant media attention. Stock said a statement by the University and College Union in support of the students' right to protest against transphobia at the university had "effectively ended" her career.[6][7]
Balance
This article includes no less than 8 or 9 statements in support of Stock from people who have themselves been criticized for transphobic or at least problematic comments and activism. Many of them are active in the same fringe movement or organizations. It includes ridiculous variations of the "I have a black friend so I can't be racist" fallacy by quoting the world's only trans anti-trans activist (Debbie Hayton). Of course you can find one or two black people who might say outrageous things about other black people, but should their views dominate articles on racism? Are they representative of the group they claim to speak for, is the key issue here.
In comparison, the only criticism included in the article is the criticism from large and representative groups, including her own trade union with its 120,000 members, and a collective statement by 600+ philosophers and other academics. We should remove the "I have a trans friend" stuff about Hayton (a fringe figure with an unremarkable career as a schoolteacher) and only include the "letter of support" from Tickell because it is representative of something or someone (he speaks for the university). That, in addition to the coverage of her own views on the subject, is more than enough to represent her own (fringe) position. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 11:59, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Also, oddly, the editorial stance of The Times seems to carry disproportionate WEIGHT with certain readers, for some reason or other. Newimpartial (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree, it doesn't add anything new to the article, it's just more of the same conspiratorial propaganda from the anti-gender movement that serves to bombard the reader with a British anti-LGBT, right-wing perspective reminiscent of the Orbán regime in Hungary. We shouldn't approach this issue solely from a UK perspective at all; the anti-gender movement operates internationally, and they are criticized in other countries as well. They are certainly not viewed as mainstream in any other part of Western Europe. Consider Hungary: Our articles are not bombarded with newspaper articles from right-wing Hungarian newspapers that push the Orbán line on everything from LGBT to the rule of law; on the contrary the mainstream European perspective on these issues dominate our coverage. We shouldn't treat the UK differently in that regard. As far as LGBT issues are concerned, the UK is an outlier, just like Hungary, and we should treat the national debate in the country's right-wing press with far more caution. There is also a quality issue here; the coverage of LGBT issues in the British right-wing press has been criticized repeatedly for being conspiratorial and sensationalist, so they are not really very good sources when they are used just for commentary. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 12:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- In fact, PinkNews and the two Times and Telegraph newspapers are all considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Philip Cross (talk) 13:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- The issue is not whether The Times in general is accepted as a source, but whether we need to bombard the article with a dozen comments representing a British right-wing, conspiratorial anti-LGBT perspective, and whether the article on Stock (a member of a very fringe movement, i.e. trans-exclusionary radical feminists) should include five or six times more support than criticism. It's an issue of balance, not only in terms of the local debate in the UK (or more precisely in its right-wing press), but globally. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 13:23, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, Philip, we use BIASEDSOURCES on WP, but that doesn't mean we have to weigh the sources so heavily on one side of a dispute - particularly through the use of editorials. Newimpartial (talk) 13:35, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I did not add The Times editorial. Multiple feminists associated with The Guardian would take a similar view to those who have written for The Times. PinkNews appears to be the only UK reliable source taking a different view on this issue. Philip Cross (talk) 13:42, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- The reliable academic sources geneally take
a different view
, as does the RS reporting on the student activists. Newimpartial (talk) 13:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)- Having had a brief look previously at recent coverage of Stock, when trying to find a secondary source for the statements made by USSU and their LGBT+ Society, there appears to be more media coverage about Stock and her views than about those criticising her. I agree however that the article is biased somewhat heavily in favour of Stock's position at the moment, with more statements in support of her than against. I would advocate for removing the recently added paragraph on the letter from The Times. The letter itself was written by only 16 trans people, some of whom are non-notable, and the reporting of it in The Times is disproportionate. 16 people does not the trans community make. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- The reliable academic sources geneally take
- I did not add The Times editorial. Multiple feminists associated with The Guardian would take a similar view to those who have written for The Times. PinkNews appears to be the only UK reliable source taking a different view on this issue. Philip Cross (talk) 13:42, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- This problem also increases with endless new additions about statements from the same (TERF) group and published in the same anti-LGBT newspaper, that now dominates the article in an inappropriate way.[8] This is not Stock's personal website, it's an encyclopedic article about her. Also note how misleading the edit is: The source makes it clear it's a statement from "GC Academia Network", a TERF group (self-described "gender-criticals"), and the statement itself uses extremist language ("women's sex-based rights", a term only used by the TERF movement), while the edit misleadingly claims they are just prominent academics (they aren't). --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have to agree, especially with regards to the open letter from the GC Academia Network. While more names have been added to the open letter since the Times piece was written, currently at 1259, about half (608) of the names on it are from students. Even limiting the search to the first 800 names as they are being added sequentially, results in over half (417) being students. As such The Times' reporting of it is overly sensationalistic, and misleading when it says "mainly university staff". Yes what I'm saying is OR, but to clarify I'm not saying we should criticise The Times' in the article, I'm saying that we should remove that statement entirely. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- This problem also increases with endless new additions about statements from the same (TERF) group and published in the same anti-LGBT newspaper, that now dominates the article in an inappropriate way.[8] This is not Stock's personal website, it's an encyclopedic article about her. Also note how misleading the edit is: The source makes it clear it's a statement from "GC Academia Network", a TERF group (self-described "gender-criticals"), and the statement itself uses extremist language ("women's sex-based rights", a term only used by the TERF movement), while the edit misleadingly claims they are just prominent academics (they aren't). --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Alex Sharpe review
There is now an additional academic review of Material Girls by a critical legal scholar, which someone more patient than I could work into this article: [9] Newimpartial (talk) 14:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that is exactly the kind of thorough, high-quality sources this article desperately needs. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 14:35, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Use of "gender critical"
@Bilorv: I've just reverted your last edit removing the term "gender critical" from the article. Its use in this manner is supported by the sources used in the article, though maybe an argument could be used for putting it into quotation marks rather than removal. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- And I have reverted it back. This is a term that was created and is endorsed by one side of a debate; WP:LABEL applies. Newimpartial (talk) 17:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Good point! I had forgotten that. Thanks. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Speaking of value-laden labels, what about the paragraph about Falkner's comment which speaks of "attacks" on Stock in Wikipedia's voice? Referring to the student protests and the statements by UCU and academics who have supported the protests or otherwise criticised her as "attacks" doesn't seem neutral. I tried changing it to criticism of Stock, which it is, but an editor instantly changed it back to attacks simply because the source used that biased and value-laden label. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think the solution here would be to put the word "attacks" in quotation marks, the same as "disgraceful" is, to clarify that the choice of language there is Falkner's/the sources and not Wikivoice. Or possibly to see if there's an alternative source for that section those comments, without The Times' paraphrasing of Falkner's words, and then modify that paragraph to better fit the source? Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, Newimpartial explains as well as I could what's wrong with "gender critical", though I do think my edit summary was clear enough. Onto the next point: "criticism" isn't appropriate (death threats, say, are not criticism), but neither is "attacks" in our own words. Bit clunky to say
what The Times deemed to be "attacks" on Stock
but it's the only thing I can think of. Very unclear from the source who specifically Falkner is commenting about (maybe that's intentional on the part of Falkner, or The Times). Is there a longer quote by Falkner that makes clear what she is talking about? — Bilorv (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)- The student group's statement, that has received public support from staff members, doesn't include any "death threats". If Falkner wasn't referring to anything the student group or academics at the University of Sussex have said or done, but something else, she should have made that clear. In any event, we shouldn't pay much attention to random comments on the Internet; anyone can claim to receive "death threats", and TERF groups have a long history of (often baselessly) interpreting any random comments on social media that they don't like as "death threats" and using it as anecdotal evidence in support of their views. The main issue in this case is the demand by the student group (without any death threats) and the response to it. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 21:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I've alluded to in another section, The Times' coverage of this has been very sensationalistic. According to The Times Stock has been told by the Sussex Police that she
"must keep off campus and teach solely online because of threats to her personal safety."
. However according to Brighton and Hove News, published an hour later, the Sussex Police said "We have established that police have not advised the victim in this case to stay away from the university campus." WP:RSP says that"The Times, including its sister paper The Sunday Times, is considered generally reliable."
, however I'd argue that in this case their reporting is anything but accurate. I would be inclined to treat any reporting by the Times as suspect. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I've alluded to in another section, The Times' coverage of this has been very sensationalistic. According to The Times Stock has been told by the Sussex Police that she
- The student group's statement, that has received public support from staff members, doesn't include any "death threats". If Falkner wasn't referring to anything the student group or academics at the University of Sussex have said or done, but something else, she should have made that clear. In any event, we shouldn't pay much attention to random comments on the Internet; anyone can claim to receive "death threats", and TERF groups have a long history of (often baselessly) interpreting any random comments on social media that they don't like as "death threats" and using it as anecdotal evidence in support of their views. The main issue in this case is the demand by the student group (without any death threats) and the response to it. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 21:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, Newimpartial explains as well as I could what's wrong with "gender critical", though I do think my edit summary was clear enough. Onto the next point: "criticism" isn't appropriate (death threats, say, are not criticism), but neither is "attacks" in our own words. Bit clunky to say
- I think the solution here would be to put the word "attacks" in quotation marks, the same as "disgraceful" is, to clarify that the choice of language there is Falkner's/the sources and not Wikivoice. Or possibly to see if there's an alternative source for that section those comments, without The Times' paraphrasing of Falkner's words, and then modify that paragraph to better fit the source? Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Speaking of value-laden labels, what about the paragraph about Falkner's comment which speaks of "attacks" on Stock in Wikipedia's voice? Referring to the student protests and the statements by UCU and academics who have supported the protests or otherwise criticised her as "attacks" doesn't seem neutral. I tried changing it to criticism of Stock, which it is, but an editor instantly changed it back to attacks simply because the source used that biased and value-laden label. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- ^ "Kathleen Stock : University of Sussex". University of Sussex. 2021. Archived from the original on 9 October 2021.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
philpeople
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Badshah, Nadeem; and agency (2021-10-07). "University defends 'academic freedoms' after calls to sack professor". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2021-10-07.
A university has said it will not tolerate threats to "academic freedoms" after a professor faced calls to be sacked over her views on gender identification.
- ^ Lawrie, Eleanor (2021-10-08). "University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row". BBC News. Archived from the original on 2021-10-08.
The University of Sussex's vice chancellor has defended a professor after protesters tried to have her sacked for her views on gender identity.
- ^ Grove, Jack (2020-01-07). "Kathleen Stock: life on the front line of transgender rights debate". Times Higher Education (THE). Archived from the original on 2020-01-07.
"It is quite a strange situation to work somewhere where people make it clear that they loathe you," reflected Kathleen Stock, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex, on the backlash she faced for her views on gender identification.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
ucu
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Cite error: The named reference
guardian2021-10-12
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).