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*'''Support''' per nom, in particular the citation: ''"occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently".''[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ProperNames/ProperNames21.html] Wikipedia has a style manual — let's use it. In addition, Wikipedia is a serious general reference that strives to present a wide scope of information to a worldwide audience (see also [[WP:BIAS]]) It is not a fansite or even a music encyclopedia (cf. [[Allmusic]]) so it should eschew nonstandard typography that serves to obscure the nature of the subject to a reader unfamiliar with it. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Georgia"> '''AjaxSmack''' </font></span>]] 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' per nom, in particular the citation: ''"occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently".''[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ProperNames/ProperNames21.html] Wikipedia has a style manual — let's use it. In addition, Wikipedia is a serious general reference that strives to present a wide scope of information to a worldwide audience (see also [[WP:BIAS]]) It is not a fansite or even a music encyclopedia (cf. [[Allmusic]]) so it should eschew nonstandard typography that serves to obscure the nature of the subject to a reader unfamiliar with it. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Georgia"> '''AjaxSmack''' </font></span>]] 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' It is less-than-encyclopedic to be using stylized forms of stage names such as “k.d. lang”, “[[Misha|Mi$ha]]” and [[Eminem|EMINƎM]]. More encyclopedic titles for this particular entertainer are “Kathryn Dawn Lang” or “K.D. Lang” and all others, such as typing “k.d. lang” into the search field simply redirect. This isn’t about picking on Kathryn or her fans, but in properly addressing the concerns of fans and certain editors active on articles for ''other'' entertainers. These people, faced with push-back on having titles with stylized stage names, question what they perceive as a double standard. [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 02:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Capitalization and the MOS
WP:MOSCL states "For proper names and trademarks that are given in mixed or non-capitalization by their owners (such as k.d. lang, adidas and others), follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." That seems to directly address whether to capitalize K.D.Lang's name throughout the article. Standard text formatting and capitalization rules are to capitalize proper names. It even goes on to say that "[t]he mixed or non-capitalized formatting should be mentioned in the article lead, or illustrated with a graphical logo." I fail to see any ambiguity here, and I can't understand why anyone would continue to revert standard capitalization back to all lowercase. Andyparkerson (talk) 00:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- Cause that portion of the MOS is stupid. Especially in cases like this where lang is NOT known anywhere under the capitalized version of K D Lang and when we make arbitrary exceptions for things like iPhone. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you don't like the MOS, change it. That is where this argument needs to occur. Andyparkerson (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) already says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." The most common name of k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K.D. Lang. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.12.52 (talk) 13:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME does not address matters of capitalization with a single word. But it does link to WP:MOSTM, which provides detailed guidelines for handling nonstandard capitalization (and by and large suggests to dismiss it). Our guidelines for music related articles (WP:MUSTARD) also link to that page, in the context of band and artist names. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- WP:MOSTM is about trademarks and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. K.d. lang is a person's name (not even a "stage name" as you keep pretending), not a trademark. —Angr 14:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- exactly how do you define "stage name" so that it does not include lang's lower case spacing adjusted monicer? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- A stage name is a type of pseudonym, a name that is significantly distinct from one's official, legal name, and taken for use as a performer. Using one's initials, or using a full name and an initial, or using only one given name when one has several, or using a nickname that is derived from one's given name, doesn't qualify as a pseudonym. Using any one of the last names one has legally borne in the course of one's life doesn't qualify as a pseudonym either. Whoopi Goldberg is a stage name for Caryn Elaine Johnson. George Burns is a stage name for Nathan Birnbaum. But A. A. Milne, C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, E. B. White, E. E. Cummings, and E. M. Forster are not pseudonyms for Alan Alexander Milne, Clive Staples Lewis, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Elwyn Brooks White, Edward Estlin Cummings, and Edgar Morgan Forster. And k.d. lang, with any capitalization and any spacing between the initials, is not a pseudonym for Kathryn Dawn Lang. It's just the version of her name that she uses professionally. —Angr 21:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- exactly how do you define "stage name" so that it does not include lang's lower case spacing adjusted monicer? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- WP:MOSTM is about trademarks and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. K.d. lang is a person's name (not even a "stage name" as you keep pretending), not a trademark. —Angr 14:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME does not address matters of capitalization with a single word. But it does link to WP:MOSTM, which provides detailed guidelines for handling nonstandard capitalization (and by and large suggests to dismiss it). Our guidelines for music related articles (WP:MUSTARD) also link to that page, in the context of band and artist names. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) already says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." The most common name of k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K.D. Lang. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.12.52 (talk) 13:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you don't like the MOS, change it. That is where this argument needs to occur. Andyparkerson (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Hurrah! Her name isn't capitalized! Thus ends (I hope) one of wikipedia's more ludicrous disputes and its root, a flaw in the MOS. 81.132.83.199 (talk) 10:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but the first paragraph makes a point of saying that there is no space between the initials and cites two references. One of which is her own site, which doesn't appear to say anything on the subject at all (although their typography suggests that her webmaster prefers to set it without a space), and the other is Who2.com, which clearly uses the space. I think it's fine to treat the space as a matter of style and leave it out, but to specifically state that it must be left out appears to be not correct.Vanhorn (talk) 05:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Capitalization discussion at the manual of style
For all interested parties, there is a discussion going on right now at the Manual of Style about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes (like k.d. lang, for example). -- Irn (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- "...about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes...." How very Wiki-ish. Is this an inbred "culture" or what?
WP:MOSCAPS is quite clear that this article can and should be renamed: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources." In addition to the singer's own web site (a primary source) we do have reliable third party references proving that k.d. lang is correct. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was Moved to k.d. lang. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 18:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
K.D. Lang → k.d. lang — As WP:MOSCAPS says, "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources." (emphasis mine) The all-lowercase spelling of "k.d. lang" is verified through multiple third-party sources in the article, indicating that the all-lowercase spelling is the most common use. Therefore, the article should be moved to match. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 18:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree It should be moved. as per WP:MOSCAPS. Jenafalt (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree The correct title of this article is lowercase. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 01:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support, k.d. lang is one of the most prominent people who don't capitalise their name. Thryduulf (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Neutral - there's considerable outside use, but I'm not sure why we should allow people who decide on a whim not to capitalize their name to do so when we explicitly do not endorse the same from any other subject. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 18:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support Per WP:MOSCAP. -- Irn (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:MOSTM. Typographical eccentricities are not an inherent part of a name. — AjaxSmack 01:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Comment You're citing the MOS guideline on trademarks, but this is a personal name, which is covered elsewhere in the MOS. -- Irn (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Comment it appears from the logs and talk page archives that the page was originally at the all lowercase spelling, and there was consenus against moving it to the capitalised title in 2005. It was subjected to various move wars, including at least one cut and paste move in 2007-8 with the outcome of all discussions on the talk that the correct title is k.d. lang. It was seemingly then moved to the present title, against consensus, last year. Thryduulf (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- The article can always be move-protected. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
OpposeWeakSupport, wasn't there already a discussion/consensus on keeping with the caps? See also caps at E. E. Cummings... I'll try to provide more rationale when I get the time. -M.Nelson (talk) 02:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- E. E. Cummings explicitly didn't self-identify in lowercase. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Changed vote to Weak support per nom citing MOSCAPS; see also Grammy website (search k.d. lang; results come in lowercase). It's weak because I still seem to recall some sort of caps consensus; also I personally just don't like the lowercase. -M.Nelson (talk) 02:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't like it is not a valid reason to support or oppose anything. Regarding the consensus, as far as I can see from the talk page and its archive there has only ever been consensus for lowercase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thryduulf (talk • contribs) 09:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, that's why it's a support rather than oppose. If consensus has been lowercase (which it appears to have been, by looking at talk), then my consensus argument could obviously be disregarded without comment from me; my WP:IDON'TLIKEIT is just my opinion, and wasn't meant to influence move consensus. Either way, these can be disregarded because I have....
- Changed vote to "Support" because though this is not, in my opinion, a 'personal name' as mentionned at MOSCAPS, there seems to be precedent with band names such as moe. and múm; this 'artist name' should be no different. Also as I mentionned previously, there is general usage (ie Grammys) of lowercase. Sorry for the confusing flip-flopping. -M.Nelson (talk) 17:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support, per above this should have happened a while ago. -- Banjeboi 15:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
k.d. lang, not K. d. lang
The result of the debate to move was to make the title of the article k.d. lang, not K.d. lang, which is what has actually happened. I think it needs to be moved again. Jenafalt (talk) 09:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Page names cannot start with a lowercase letter. Hence the use of {{lowercase title}} to pretend that it does. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 01:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Is fixed now, thanks. Jenafalt (talk) 07:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
"vegetarian" vs. "vegan"?
(Sorry, seems my account has gone.)
In the article, I see k.d. lang described as vegetarian, while at the same time, she's listed in the list of vegans. Should this be changed here? --78.53.218.135 (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- If you can find evidence of one or the other make the change, but they aren't mutually exclusive and "vegetarian" is the safe option.78.86.61.94 (talk) 03:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Poor photo
Surely there must be a better photo than that. It looks like Paul Whitehouse choking on a phlegm-ball, or a lemon. Melonbonce (talk) 10:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I found one with the right license at flickr and uploaded it. Let's hope this one meets your standards. --CutOffTies (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Requested move: k.d lang → K. D. Lang
K.d. lang → K. D. Lang – We have guidelines that stipulate the use of conventional capitalization for musician names (MOS:MUSIC), for trademarks (WP:MOSTM), and in article titles (WP:CAPS). All three apply here. So case closed? Not so fast. There is some curious language in MOSCAPS that carves out an exception tailored to this article. As the guideline explains, “Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized." This is terrible logic and the potential for mischief is obvious. (“If Lang can get an exception, why can’t Seven be Se7en?”) So I’m hoping that after we move the article we can cut this cute little pustule out of the guidelines. The subject’s name is given in the proposed form by CNN, Amazon, and the New York Times. The libraries are all cataloging her work under “K D Lang”, according to Worldcat. Kauffner (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
The relevant guidelines are:
- “Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists.” (MOS:MUSIC)
- The “standard rule" is as follows:
- 8.4 Capitalization of personal names. Names and initials of persons, real or fictitious, are capitalized.” Chicago Manual of Style, p. 388. (P. D. James is given as an example.) CMOS provides this explanatory note on its Web site: “Occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently."[1]
- “Choose among styles already in use...and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English” (WP:MOSTM)
- Adhere “to conventions [for capitalization] widely used in the genre.” (WP:CAPS)
- "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)." (MOSCAPS) Kauffner (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
survey
- oppose; I see lowercasing as significantly less problematic than all-caps, especially for personal names (as opposed to stage names). There is a long tradition dating back at least to e.e. cummings of using lowercase, and it presents as significantly less self-aggrandizing than all-caps. I see this as akin (though not perfectly so) to the capitalization exceptions we make for iTunes and eBay. Powers T 19:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- oppose See above debate, WP:MOSCAP -- Irn (talk) 20:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- oppose: This has already been established as the case for all lower case names and set up as an exception per previous consensuses.—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- oppose. referenced as lowercase everywhere. Alarbus (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- So the The New York Times doesn't count? I was sure this nomination would get some kind of reaction. But it doesn't look anyone bothered to read it. Kauffner (talk) 23:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. The singer has trademarked the name in the form "k. d. lang". So "k. d. lang" is indeed a trademark, and when used as one, attracting the rights that trademarks are intended to confer (in commercial or public life), it therefore comes under WP:MOSTM. But the story is complicated. That MOS page includes these provisions (beyond what has already been pointed out above):
- Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names
- Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official"
- Trademarks rendered without any capitals are always capitalized
- So if we are citing the form "k. d. lang" as it is used in commercial or public life, and if that is truly the relevant consideration, then clearly the title ought to be "K. D. Lang" ("Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if ...").
- This argument is not to be dismissed lightly. At a recent RM, Bollinger Bands was kept capitalised ("Bands") at the insistence of Bollinger himself, on the basis that it happened to be recently trademarked (though it is a generically used technical term that the article did not even mention was trademarked). From this and some other recent cases, it seems that there is a job of clarification to do at WP:MOSTM.
- NoeticaTea? 06:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Support – per MOS:TM, even though it's not perfect. Dicklyon (talk) 07:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose: We should be using MOS to ensure articles are written in a suitably consistent style, not as an excuse to amend people's identities. It's her stage name - WP:V is a policy, MOS is a guideline. Ben MacDui 12:45, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Is there an actual problem here? No. It's widely known that the singer in question styles herself "k. d. lang"; what's the problem with using this style in Wikipedia? Equally, if the article had been titled "K. D. Lang", would that be an actual problem to be changed the other way? No. This discussion is just another example of a desire to impose unnecessary conformity. If all the time that editors spend arguing about fringe matters of style were spent on creating and correcting content, Wikipedia would be much better. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think I answered these questions already in the nomination. Yes, it's creating a problem. The problem is not so much with the article title itself, but rather the fact there is a special loophole in the guidelines tailored to this article. This allows editors to argue that if Lang can have her lowercased initials, celeb X should be able to have his all caps/numeral/dollar sign whatever. There are three separate guidelines that stipulate standard capitalization for musician names in article titles. So there are plenty of instructions already. All that needs to be done is to remove the language that creates the loophole. Kauffner (talk) 13:35, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it's creating a problem. No, at most it creates a potential problem. There's no actual problem. So there's no need for any change. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- At any rate, the argument is one that several editors are currently deploying. Otherwise, I would never have heard of this singer or article. There are certainly plenty of sources to justify moving the subject's name to the proposed form. Kauffner (talk) 14:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see the problem with drawing a line between respecting an artist's desire to have her personal name lowercased, and accommodating similar requests for uppercasing or special characters. That may not be where some people want the line drawn, but it's where the line has been for a long time. Powers T 15:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- "Is there an actual problem here?" Yes. Either a reader is familiar with K.D. Lang or is not. For readers familiar with her, there is little potential for confusion if her name is capitalized (i.e., there are no other K.D. Langs). However, for readers unfamiliar with her, a lowercase personal name in English is incongruous at best and confusing at worst. There is a reason Wikipedia has a style manual: to reduce confusion and reach as broad an audience as possible, not just readers of a certain age, background, or nationality (see the intro to WP:MOS as well as WP:BIAS). Cutesy typography, even if temporally and geographically appropriate, is not worthy of a general reference work with a worldwide purview. — AjaxSmack 19:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. The use of the "consistency" argument as a tool to fix a "I Don't Like It" is inappropriate. Consistency is to use the name of the artist as used by the artist. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom, in particular the citation: "occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently".[2] Wikipedia has a style manual — let's use it. In addition, Wikipedia is a serious general reference that strives to present a wide scope of information to a worldwide audience (see also WP:BIAS) It is not a fansite or even a music encyclopedia (cf. Allmusic) so it should eschew nonstandard typography that serves to obscure the nature of the subject to a reader unfamiliar with it. — AjaxSmack 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- Support It is less-than-encyclopedic to be using stylized forms of stage names such as “k.d. lang”, “Mi$ha” and EMINƎM. More encyclopedic titles for this particular entertainer are “Kathryn Dawn Lang” or “K.D. Lang” and all others, such as typing “k.d. lang” into the search field simply redirect. This isn’t about picking on Kathryn or her fans, but in properly addressing the concerns of fans and certain editors active on articles for other entertainers. These people, faced with push-back on having titles with stylized stage names, question what they perceive as a double standard. Greg L (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)