Softlemonades (talk | contribs) →Trafigura: Reply Tag: Reply |
Cambial Yellowing (talk | contribs) rfc Tag: WikiLeaks |
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:::I think that comes under [[WP:JDL]]. It's always worth trying to see if there's anything in particular that triggers that but they said nothing specific to justify the tag so I'll remove it. [[User:NadVolum|NadVolum]] ([[User talk:NadVolum|talk]]) 23:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
:::I think that comes under [[WP:JDL]]. It's always worth trying to see if there's anything in particular that triggers that but they said nothing specific to justify the tag so I'll remove it. [[User:NadVolum|NadVolum]] ([[User talk:NadVolum|talk]]) 23:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::::That was what I thought but didnt want to remove the tag since I had started the article [[User:Softlemonades|Softlemonades]] ([[User talk:Softlemonades|talk]]) 23:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
::::That was what I thought but didnt want to remove the tag since I had started the article [[User:Softlemonades|Softlemonades]] ([[User talk:Softlemonades|talk]]) 23:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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==RfC: Assange and the Trafigura report== |
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{{rfc|bio}} |
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Should the following subsection about Assange publishing a report into the [[2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump]] be included in the article, beneath "early publications" in the section "WikiLeaks"? <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">[[User:Cambial Yellowing|<i style="color:#999900">Cambial </i>]]— [[User talk:Cambial Yellowing|<b style="color:#218000">foliar❧</b>]]</span> 14:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC) |
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<Proposed section>: |
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===Trafigura report and super-injunction=== |
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In September 2009 Assange helped publish the ''Minton Report'', a scientific report about the [[2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump]].<ref name=Cha17>{{cite book |last1=Chadwick |first1=Andrew|author-link=Andrew Chadwick|title=The Hybrid Media System: Politics and Power |date=2017 |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |location=Oxford |isbn=978-0-19-069673-3|quote=The paper [The Guardian] had used WikiLeaks data early on. During 2009 the British high court upheld so-called superinjunctions preventing the Guardian from reporting on Barclays Bank's alleged tax avoidance and oil trading company Trafigura's alleged dumping of toxic waste in the Ivory Coast. Superinjunctions forbid all media discussion of the injunctions they cover, so WikiLeaks agreed to host documents that British judges had ruled must be kept secret, undermining the court's decision.|pages=103–129 |edition=Second|chapter=Power, Interdependence, and Hybridity in the Construction of Political News: Understanding WikiLeaks|url=https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-hybrid-media-system-9780190696733?cc=gb&lang=en&}}</ref><ref name=Sma14>{{cite book |last1=Smartt |first1=Ursula |last2=Mansfield |first2=Michael |title=Media & Entertainment Law|chapter=Freedom of Public Information|date=2014 |publisher=[[Routledge]] |location=London |isbn=978-0-415-66270-3 |pages=301–337|author-link2=Michael Mansfield|edition=Second|quote=WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange describes this process as 'principled leaking', and all material is vetted by a team of experts for authenticity...The website has become a conduit for publishing material under its premise that every person has a right to freedom of information. It was WikiLeaks that exposed the full Trafigura scandal by releasing the (super)injuncted documents.|url=https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315815633/media-entertainment-law-2-ursula-smartt}}</ref><ref name=Obo19>{{cite journal |last1=Oborne |first1=Peter |title=He's a Hero, not a Villain |journal=British Journalism Review |date=2019 |volume=30 |issue=3|quote=Julian Assange is responsible for breaking more stories than all the rest of us put together. Here are examples of a tiny handful of the stories he has published or helped to publish...The Guardian obtained a report into the effects of waste-dumping in Africa by the oil giant Trafigura. After Trafigura took The Guardian to court to get an injunction, it was WikiLeaks that published the suppressed report by John Minton, which detailed the severe health effects that could be caused by the toxic waste...These are stonking good stories, each and every one in the public interest, which we would not know but for Julian Assange.|pages=43–47|publisher=[[SAGE Publishing]]|location=London|doi=10.1177/0956474819873574}}</ref><ref name=Fow20Traf/> Thirty{{nbh}}thousand claimants were suing the oil firm [[Trafigura]] in London, in one of the largest class-action suits brought before a British court, after the firm had illegally exported toxic waste and then had it dumped in [[Abidjan]] in [[Ivory Coast]].<ref>{{cite news |title='Dirty tricks' over toxic waste |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8260955.stm|location=London|work=[[BBC News]]|quote=One of the largest class action lawsuits ever brought before the British courts is about to be settled. The case follows the illegal dumping of toxic waste in the Ivory Coast three years ago, which has been the subject of a continuing Newsnight investigation.|publisher=BBC |date=17 September 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Dumping ground |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/program/people-power/2009/5/21/dumping-ground|quote=In the largest class action in British history, human rights lawyer, Martyn Day, is representing 30,000 Ivorians against the world’s third-largest oil trader, Trafigura.|work=[[Al-Jazeera]] |date=21 May 2009 |language=en}}</ref> When ''the Guardian'' newspaper had asked the company about the report, it responded by having its law firm [[Carter-Ruck|Carter{{nbh}}Ruck]] obtain a [[super-injunction]] (in ''[[RJW v Guardian News and Media Ltd]]'') to prevent discussion by the media of either the contents of the report or the existence of the injunction itself.<ref name=Cha17/><ref name=Fow20Traf>{{cite book |last1=Fowler |first1=Andrew |title=The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks' Fight for Freedom |date=2020 |publisher=[[Melbourne University Press]] |location=Melbourne|pages=221–228|isbn=978-0-522-87685-7|edition=2nd |url=https://www.mup.com.au/books/the-most-dangerous-man-in-the-world-paperback-softback--1}}</ref> After publication of the document itself, Assange published two editorials on Wikileaks about the situation:<ref name=Fow20Traf/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Assange |first1=Julian |title=Guardian Still Under Secret Toxic Waste Gag |url=https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Guardian_still_under_secret_toxic_waste_gag |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120501031410/https://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Guardian_still_under_secret_toxic_waste_gag|archive-date=27 June 2021|url-status=dead|work=[[Wikileaks]] |date=14 Oct 2009}}</ref> {{bq|Assange argued that the secret gag order "remains in effect, and entirely prevents the reporting of the report's contents"....Assange said that because of the damaging threat of legal costs, UK newspapers had silently removed some of the original dumping investigations from their databases. "For example, the Independent's 'Toxic shame: thousands injured in African city' no-longer 'exists' except at WikiLeaks"}} Wikileaks maintained the report on its site and linked to it on the social network [[Twitter]], where they encouraged journalists to break the injunction's censorship. After a question was tabled about the report in the [[House of Commons of the United Kingdom|House of Commons]] under [[parliamentary privilege]], Trafigura's law firm Carter{{nbh}}Ruck claimed the injunction was ''[[sub judice]]'' and tried to prevent discussion of the affair in parliament itself.<ref name=Fow20Traf/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Leigh |first1=David |title=Carter-Ruck in new move to stop debate in parliament|location=London|publisher=Guardian Media Group|url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/15/carter-ruck-trafigura-parliament-injunction |work=The Guardian |date=15 October 2009|quote=The law firm Carter-Ruck has made a fresh move that could stop an MPs' debate next week by claiming a controversial injunction it has obtained is 'sub judice'...Carter-Ruck partner Adam Tudor today sent a letter to the Speaker, John Bercow, and also circulated it to every single MP and peer, saying they believed the case was 'sub judice'. If correct, it would mean that, under Westminster rules to prevent clashes between parliament and the courts, a debate planned for next Wednesday could not go ahead.}}</ref><ref name=Pon09>{{cite news |last1=Ponsford |first1=Dominic |title=Trafigura: 'Never again should a newspaper be barred from reporting Parliament'|location=London|url=https://pressgazette.co.uk/archive-content/trafigura-never-again-should-a-newspaper-be-barred-from-reporting-parliament/|quote=The injunction had already been rendered obsolete by the whistle-blowers' website Wikileaks which published the Minton report in full some weeks ago – making it easily findable online via Google. Last week Carter Ruck claimed that the injunction as phrased stopped The Guardian from reporting a parliamentary question asked by MP Paul Farrelly about the matter. On Tuesday they allowed the injunction to be varied to allow the reporting of Farrelly's question.|work=[[Press Gazette]] |publisher=Progressive Media International |date=19 October 2009}}</ref> The publicity generated about the easy availability of the report on the Wikileaks website, and subsequently its publication by the Norwegian broadcaster [[NRK]], led Carter-Ruck to agree to a modification of the injunction.<ref name=Fow20Traf/><ref name=Sif11>{{cite book |last1=Sifry |first1=Micah L. |title=Wikileaks and the Age of Transparency|url=https://www.counterpointpress.com/books/wikileaks-and-the-age-of-transparency/|date=2011|quote=The only thing The Guardian could say was that the case involved Carter-Ruck, a prominent legal firm that specializes in working with global corporations. The British blogosphere went into overdrive speculating about the case, and swiftly zeroed in on a report, posted to WikiLeaks, connecting the oil commodity firm Trafigura to toxic dumping off the coast of Africa. Apparently Carter-Ruck was trying to keep the issue from surfacing publicly and had obtained a court injunction barring coverage of a pending question that was being raised on the matter by a member of Parliament. The word 'Trafigura' also took off on Twitter, making Carter-Ruck's legal efforts essentially moot. It was a textbook example of WikiLeaks at its most powerful, preventing the suppression of information that everyone agreed deserved to be aired in public.|publisher=Counterpoint |location=Berkeley |isbn=9781582437798}}</ref> The affair caused a furore and prompted a wider discussion in the British press about the continued use of super-injunctions.<ref name=Fow20Traf/><ref name=Pon09/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Cohen |first1=Noam |title=Twitter and a Newspaper Untie a Gag Order |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/technology/internet/19link.html |work=[[The New York Times]] |date=19 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Bowers |first1=Mary |title=Trafigura Report on Dumped Waste in Ivory Coast Revealed |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trafigura-report-on-dumped-waste-in-ivory-coast-revealed-tsj8tcthszc |work=[[The Times]]|location=London |date=17 October 2009 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=How the Trafigura story came to be told|location=London|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/16/trafigura-carter-ruck-the-guardian |work=The Guardian |date=16 October 2009}}</ref> |
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As Wikileaks' editor, Assange commented about super-injunctions to the publishing industry trade publication [[Journalism.co.uk]] that "In 2008, the paper was served with six. In 2007, five. Haven't heard of these? Of course not, these are secret gag orders; the UK press has given up counting regular injunctions".<ref>{{cite news |last1=Townend |first1=Judith |title=Trafigura and the Minton Report: 'Super injunction' was lifted after the horse had bolted|url=https://www.journalism.co.uk/news-features/trafigura-and-the-minton-report--super-injunction-was-lifted-after-the-horse-had-bolted/s5/a536178/|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120527015019/https://www.journalism.co.uk/news-features/trafigura-and-the-minton-report--super-injunction-was-lifted-after-the-horse-had-bolted/s5/a536178/|archive-date=27 May 2012|url-status=live|location=Brighton|work=[[Journalism.co.uk]] |publisher=Mousetrap Media Ltd |date=19 October 2009}}</ref><ref name=Fow20Traf/> |
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{{talk-reflist}} |
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<end> |
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===!Votes=== |
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*'''Include''' The report and subsequent [[RJW v Guardian News and Media Ltd|injunction]], and the report's publication on WikiLeaks, were the subject of news coverage in several national newspapers and the BBC,<ref name=Pon09>{{cite news |last1=Ponsford |first1=Dominic |title=Trafigura: 'Never again should a newspaper be barred from reporting Parliament'|location=London|url=https://pressgazette.co.uk/archive-content/trafigura-never-again-should-a-newspaper-be-barred-from-reporting-parliament/|quote=The injunction had already been rendered obsolete by the whistle-blowers' website Wikileaks which published the Minton report in full some weeks ago – making it easily findable online via Google. Last week Carter Ruck claimed that the injunction as phrased stopped The Guardian from reporting a parliamentary question asked by MP Paul Farrelly about the matter. On Tuesday they allowed the injunction to be varied to allow the reporting of Farrelly's question.|work=[[Press Gazette]] |publisher=Progressive Media International |date=19 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Beckford |first1=Martin |last2=Watt |first2=Holly |title=Secret Trafigura report said ‘likely cause’ of illness was release of toxic gas from dumped waste |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6350262/Secret-Trafigura-report-said-likely-cause-of-illness-was-release-of-toxic-gas-from-dumped-waste.html |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]] |date=16 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Leigh |first1=David |title=Trafigura drops bid to gag Guardian over MP's question |url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/oct/13/trafigura-drops-gag-guardian-oil |work=The Guardian |date=13 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Bowers |first1=Mary |title=Trafigura report on dumped waste in Ivory Coast revealed |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trafigura-report-on-dumped-waste-in-ivory-coast-revealed-tsj8tcthszc |work=[[The Times]]|date=7 June 2023 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title='Toxic waste' report gag lifted |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8311885.stm |work=[[BBC News]] |date=17 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Ivorian dumping report published |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8312780.stm |work=[[BBC News]] |date=17 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Beckford |first1=Martin |last2=Watt |first2=Holly |title=Secret Trafigura report said ‘likely cause’ of illness was release of toxic gas from dumped waste |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6350262/Secret-Trafigura-report-said-likely-cause-of-illness-was-release-of-toxic-gas-from-dumped-waste.html |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]] |date=16 October 2009}}</ref> as well as some coverage in the international press.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Todd |first1=Tony |title=Press freedom prevails after parliament gag attempt is dropped |url=https://www.france24.com/en/20091014-press-freedom-prevails-after-parliament-gag-attempt-dropped |work=[[France 24]] |date=14 October 2009 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Cohen |first1=Noam |title=Twitter and a Newspaper Untie a Gag Order |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/technology/internet/19link.html |work=The New York Times |date=19 October 2009}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Twitter helped quash injunction, UK newspaper says |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/urnidgns002570f3005978d80025764f004ed448-idUS56414279520091014 |work=Reuters |date=15 October 2009 |language=en}}</ref> WikiLeaks was directly referred to in debate in the UK national parliament. Academic sources including a textbook on Media & Entertainment Law,<ref name=Sma14>{{cite book |last1=Smartt |first1=Ursula |last2=Mansfield |first2=Michael |title=Media & Entertainment Law|chapter=Freedom of Public Information|date=2014 |publisher=[[Routledge]] |location=London |isbn=978-0-415-66270-3 |pages=301–337|author-link2=Michael Mansfield|edition=Second|url=https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315815633/media-entertainment-law-2-ursula-smartt}}</ref> a chapter on WikiLeaks in a work on political communication in the media,<ref name=Cha17>{{cite book |last1=Chadwick |first1=Andrew|author-link=Andrew Chadwick|title=The Hybrid Media System: Politics and Power |date=2017 |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |location=Oxford |isbn=978-0-19-069673-3|pages=103–129 |edition=Second|chapter=Power, Interdependence, and Hybridity in the Construction of Political News: Understanding WikiLeaks|url=https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-hybrid-media-system-9780190696733?cc=gb&lang=en&}}</ref>, and a history of Assange and WikiLeaks,<ref name=Fow20Traf>{{cite book |last1=Fowler |first1=Andrew |title=The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks' Fight for Freedom |date=2020 |publisher=[[Melbourne University Press]] |location=Melbourne|pages=221–228|isbn=978-0-522-87685-7|edition=2nd |url=https://www.mup.com.au/books/the-most-dangerous-man-in-the-world-paperback-softback--1}}</ref> detail the publication and its effect. The latter reproduces Assange's editorial at the time of publication.<ref name=Fow20Traf/> Other sources on the history of Assange/WikiLeaks discuss Assange's publication of the report and its significance.<ref name=Obo19>{{cite journal |last1=Oborne |first1=Peter |title=He's a Hero, not a Villain |journal=British Journalism Review |date=2019 |volume=30 |issue=3|quote=Julian Assange is responsible for breaking more stories than all the rest of us put together. Here are examples of a tiny handful of the stories he has published or helped to publish...The Guardian obtained a report into the effects of waste-dumping in Africa by the oil giant Trafigura. After Trafigura took The Guardian to court to get an injunction, it was WikiLeaks that published the suppressed report by John Minton, which detailed the severe health effects that could be caused by the toxic waste...These are stonking good stories, each and every one in the public interest, which we would not know but for Julian Assange.|pages=43–47|publisher=[[SAGE Publishing]]|location=London|doi=10.1177/0956474819873574}}</ref><ref name=Sif11>{{cite book |last1=Sifry |first1=Micah L. |title=Wikileaks and the age of transparency|url=https://www.counterpointpress.com/books/wikileaks-and-the-age-of-transparency/|date=2011|quote=The only thing The Guardian could say was that the case involved Carter-Ruck, a prominent legal firm that specializes in working with global corporations. The British blogosphere went into overdrive speculating about the case, and swiftly zeroed in on a report, posted to WikiLeaks, connecting the oil commodity firm Trafigura to toxic dumping off the coast of Africa. Apparently Carter-Ruck was trying to keep the issue from surfacing publicly and had obtained a court injunction barring coverage of a pending question that was being raised on the matter by a member of Parliament. The word 'Trafigura' also took off on Twitter, making Carter-Ruck's legal efforts essentially moot. It was a textbook example of WikiLeaks at its most powerful, preventing the suppression of information that everyone agreed deserved to be aired in public.|publisher=Counterpoint |location=Berkeley |isbn=9781582437798}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last1=Greenberg |first1=Andy |title=This machine kills secrets: how WikiLeakers, cypherpunks and hacktivists aim to free the world's information|url=https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/412983/this-machine-kills-secrets-by-andy-greenberg/9780753540510|date=2012 |publisher=[[Penguin Books]] |location=London |isbn=9780753540510}}</ref> It's directly relevant to the article subject and part of a neutral narrative. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">[[User:Cambial Yellowing|<i style="color:#999900">Cambial </i>]]— [[User talk:Cambial Yellowing|<b style="color:#218000">foliar❧</b>]]</span> 14:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC) |
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===Discussion=== |
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{{talk-reflist}} |
Revision as of 14:13, 7 June 2023
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AI image
@NadVolum I didnt know how bad Bild was, and agree with removing it. I think it should be replaced with TF1 the most popular channel in France [1] and secondary coverage from Libertatea in Romania [2]
TF1 adds details like MIA tweeting it and deleting it Softlemonades (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- I saw this image circulating on Twitter but didn't realize it was a fake! Nevertheless, my surprise doesn't make this notable, but the additional sources you've provided appear to meet RS. I've restored your edit with the aforementioned citations. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well if it is making the rounds I guess so. It just seemed to be not much to do with actual news and there will be lots of these pictures going around. I added wings to a persons picture years ago, I don't expect automated versions of that sort of thing to become notable. It's rubbish and hopefully people will get fed up of them. Here's something to go on if you really can't stop stuffing the article Congressional Effort to End Assange Prosecution Underway. NadVolum (talk) 19:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Russia responds to EU over criticism on arrest of US journalist I would count as another rubbish one. Neither the picture nor Russia's remarks are going to have an effect one way or the other and hav practically nothing to do with Assange himself. NadVolum (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- I support removing this information. It is trivia. Jack Upland (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- A "super virale" AI image? Really!? Yes, Bild Zeitung is popular, the highest-circulation daily newspaper in Europe for a long time - bad and inferior. Replaced with TF1 the most popular commercial TV-channel in France - bad and inferior. We already have a bloated article, why stuff the article with such clearly non-encyclopedic irrelevancies, that are not related to him and his biography? Time to move on.--91.54.19.113 (talk) 23:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- I see the errors of my ways in regards to restoring this, I don't think there is enough weight to include this in the page. I will not contest a removal. Kcmastrpc (talk) 00:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
TF1 the most popular commercial TV-channel in France - bad and inferior
what?- Associated Press and France24 too. And the first time Russian government caught using AI generated images for disinformation. Softlemonades (talk) 03:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- I see the errors of my ways in regards to restoring this, I don't think there is enough weight to include this in the page. I will not contest a removal. Kcmastrpc (talk) 00:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- A "super virale" AI image? Really!? Yes, Bild Zeitung is popular, the highest-circulation daily newspaper in Europe for a long time - bad and inferior. Replaced with TF1 the most popular commercial TV-channel in France - bad and inferior. We already have a bloated article, why stuff the article with such clearly non-encyclopedic irrelevancies, that are not related to him and his biography? Time to move on.--91.54.19.113 (talk) 23:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- I support removing this information. It is trivia. Jack Upland (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
"[T]he image circulating online was generated using AI. It was posted on Twitter under the username "The Errant Friend", who confirmed to the AP that it was not real.
"The Errant Friend", who declined to give a real name for safety reasons, said the photo was produced using the latest update of Midjourney, version 5. The online tool allows users to generate images using simple text prompts, and the new iteration can produce convincing images mimicking real photos. Since its release last month, there has been a flood of realistic but entirely synthetic images of high profile figures on social media
Through Twitter direct messages, the user said the image was created to depict Assange’s “documented suffering in Belmarsh,” further adding that it was designed as “part of a viral movement for Julian’s freedom.” The user also provided the AP with a screenshot showing the text prompt on Midjourney". Burrobert (talk) 04:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- Right, it was made by an Assange supporter. The article text says that twice, and could maybe be clearer about how AI made it. Its all the same to me, I just linked to the AI generated art article.
- France24 confirms what AP said and adds
Since the start of the war in Ukraine, Russian embassies have been regularly sharing fake images in order to discredit Ukrainian and Western authorities, like this fake news story about Ukrainians vandalising Nazi symbols at the World Cup or these fake anti-Ukrainian ads. Embassies have also shared false information about Russian attacks in Ukraine, such as this claim that Russia had launched strikes on an ammunition depot, when in fact it hit a shopping mall that was open to the public.
The image of Julian Assange in prison is the first example of an AI-generated image used by a Russian embassy to spread disinformation that our team has identified.
Softlemonades (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Prisoner in first sentence
This was suggested above and it is a good idea because it describes what Assange has been doing for the past few years. Jack Upland (talk) 01:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose it does take up a sizable chunk of the article, and seems to be what he is most notable for. Slatersteven (talk) 09:34, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- This is not how RS generally characterise the article subject. No RS indicate that this is what he is notable for, which is what the first sentence of the lead is to lay out. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where. It should be in plain English. Try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject.
MOS:FIRST Softlemonades (talk) 11:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)- The word “prisoner” is a noun for a person; it is not a location. In this case it is not supported by RS as something article subject is notable or known for. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Prison is a location. When it was
suggested above
when you reverted it before Cambial, it referred to being a prisoner in Belmarsh, that is a location - Almost every RS talks about it, hes known for it Softlemonades (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Prison is a location. When it was
- The word “prisoner” is a noun for a person; it is not a location. In this case it is not supported by RS as something article subject is notable or known for. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- The last of the four paragraphs in the lead goes into that, I think it is covered quite adequately. Personally I think the lead could be trimmed quite considerably. NadVolum (talk) 10:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Its odd that something he is not primarily noted for takes up something like half the article. Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- There's two million people in prison in america, many for extremely long periods. It is not something any are notable for that I can think of. NadVolum (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Birmingham Six is the ort of thing people become notable for being in prison for. Probably something like ten percent of the prisoners in america didn't do what they are in prison for but even so are not notable unless possibly they get out in notable circumstances. NadVolum (talk) 14:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- But the lede reflects the article, not the importance of something outside of the article. Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Assange is in prison for what he is notable for. Not the other way round. Same as for most any other prisoner. I see no need to duplicate it in the lead. NadVolum (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- MOS:FIRST says we should say where he is
- And he has become more notable because of his case and because of being in prison. Thats why the Belmarsh Triburnal exists and Al Jazeera calls him a cause celebre [3] Every article hes had written about him since 2019 is because of his case and because hes in prison Softlemonades (talk) 12:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- You left out 'and often' in the description of MOS. And I think most people interpret that as saying something like 'Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician ...', not that he currently lives in Florida. The lead already has a paragraph about him being in prison. The lead should be smaller I think. NadVolum (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- If Assange were free to move around I think itd be different, but hes not so the "and often" seems like itd apply Softlemonades (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- You left out 'and often' in the description of MOS. And I think most people interpret that as saying something like 'Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician ...', not that he currently lives in Florida. The lead already has a paragraph about him being in prison. The lead should be smaller I think. NadVolum (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Assange is in prison for what he is notable for. Not the other way round. Same as for most any other prisoner. I see no need to duplicate it in the lead. NadVolum (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- But the lede reflects the article, not the importance of something outside of the article. Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Prisoner seems to imply that he has been convicted of a crime. At least from my POV. Unless we are talking about using the term political prisoner which we can wikilink and is probably accurate. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:15, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Prisoner implies hes in prison. Many people are in prison while they wait for trial. Thats how bail works Softlemonades (talk) 11:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- 'Prisoner implies to me' would be a more correct way to phrase that. It doesn't look like it implied it to who you're replying to. None of us is the measure of the world. NadVolum (talk) 11:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Prisoner means someone in prison, which clearly applies to Assange.Jack Upland (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- 'Prisoner implies to me' would be a more correct way to phrase that. It doesn't look like it implied it to who you're replying to. None of us is the measure of the world. NadVolum (talk) 11:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Hardly the most important thing about him. There's lots of prisoners in the world. NadVolum (talk) 06:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Hardly the most important thing about him
Theres lots of Australians, editors, publishers in the world too Softlemonades (talk) 13:51, 15 May 2023 (UTC)- Being an editor or publisher can be a route to becoming notable. Compare to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, he cetainly spent enoug time in prison but it isn't what he is notable for and therefore in Wikipedia for. NadVolum (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hes not notable for being Australian but we include that too because MOS says, just like it says
The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where.
- First sentence for biographies says the same thing, and his being in prison and his case is what hes most notable for now. Its not what made him notable first but hes notable for it now. They even count how long hes been in prison. The UN did reports about how he was detained
- Should we do an RFC? Because I think we agree on the policy but were arguing the same points about whats notable and not convincing each other. Does it matter after the changes that Cambial made? Softlemonades (talk) 16:19, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you feel it is so important then by all means go ahead and set up an RfC. I see his being a prisoner as being already covered in the lead and I don't think it is impotrtant wenough to cover twice and I don't see it as being any basis for his notability and more than I would for practically any other prsioner who became notable except ones like the Birmingham six. NadVolum (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just didnt know how to solve the lock and didnt want to argue forever. More people came to Talk so I think its ok Softlemonades (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you're going to raise an RfC I think you'f need to explain what prisoner means or includ esome other term like detainee. Despite the sophistry above too many people think prisoner means convicted, for instance Cambridge dictionary 'a person who is kept in prison as a punishment', Collins dictionary 'A prisoner is a person who is kept in a prison as a punishment for a crime that they have committed'.NadVolum (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Did you read all of the definitions, or just pick the one you liked? O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you feel it is so important then by all means go ahead and set up an RfC. I see his being a prisoner as being already covered in the lead and I don't think it is impotrtant wenough to cover twice and I don't see it as being any basis for his notability and more than I would for practically any other prsioner who became notable except ones like the Birmingham six. NadVolum (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hes not notable for being Australian but we include that too because MOS says, just like it says
- Being an editor or publisher can be a route to becoming notable. Compare to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, he cetainly spent enoug time in prison but it isn't what he is notable for and therefore in Wikipedia for. NadVolum (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose in general, "prisoner" is a state of being not a profession or characteristic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- The article subject is one of the most well known modern political prisoners. He would not meet the definition of prisoner without the qualifying term, as he has never been convicted. Essentially he is held as an Enemy combatant although I suspect the latter really only applies to the US treatment on the matter (those held at Guantanamo). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well, of course he's a prisoner if he is in prison. People can be in prison for years without conviction, usually awaiting trial. We would not say "politcal prisoner" without a preponderance of reliable sources using the term. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- The dictionary definitions above show it would definitely need some qualification if put in. NadVolum (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- Read all of the definitions. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- That's not the point. Finding a definition so A is a B does not mean that B is a reasonable descrption of A. One might as well say Casey Jones was an engineer. NadVolum (talk) 07:57, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- Read all of the definitions. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- The dictionary definitions above show it would definitely need some qualification if put in. NadVolum (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- I do not think Assange is a political prisoner, do you have a source for this? I thought he was a fugitive from justice and hiding out in foreign territory to avoid extradition. Andre🚐 00:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, there are many sources for it here including president of mexico saying it here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
- Time for a RfC? Saying that he is more notable as an editor than as a prisoner seems to be an absurdity to me.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree but if there is an RfC we should do what NadVolum said and
explain what prisoner means or includ esome other term like detainee
becausetoo many people think prisoner means convicted
Softlemonades (talk) 15:15, 21 May 2023 (UTC)- What about saying he is a "prisoner in the UK currently fighting extradition to the US"?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think thats better, maybe add "while" so maybe if you do an RfC ask what people think about
prisoner in the UK while fighting extradition to the US
ordetained in the UK while fighting extradition to the US
- I like
challenging
better thanfighting
because I think its not not as charged but thats a different issue Softlemonades (talk) 13:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- What about saying he is a "prisoner in the UK currently fighting extradition to the US"?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree but if there is an RfC we should do what NadVolum said and
- If you want to state Prisoner you first need to deal with the target article which states "The term applies particularly to serving a prison sentence in a prison.". Assange hasnt been convicted. If you want to use Political prisoner instead this would be a different matter. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thats one reason I think detained works better or would get less argument about it. I think it also is how Assange an Wikileaks have ABOUTSELFed for years
- I dont think political prisoner will get consensus because so much disagreement about Assange and like the article says
there is no internationally recognized legal definition of
political prisoner. With disagreement about Assange and unclear definition, I dont think itll get agreement. But it can be included in an RfC - After reading others comments I think the word most likely to get agreed is
detained
Softlemonades (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)- Assange claims in the Guardian and letter to the King that he is a political prisoner, stating “As a political prisoner, held at your majesty’s pleasure on behalf of an embarrassed foreign sovereign, I am honoured to reside within the walls of this world class institution,” . That should be due and we can summarize to state that the article subject claims he is a political prisoner. I have added it to the body here and would support it being added to the lede, but that can be discussed here more (so I didnt bother to add that since we are discussing). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think "detained" would falsely suggest he wasn't a prisoner. He definitely is.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- roughly the same in terms of google hits for detained 252k and prisoner 293k. Here we can see the definition of prisoner doesnt read like our wikipedia destination reads, saying " a person deprived of liberty and kept under involuntary restraint, confinement, or custody" so maybe my assumption that it means convicted is wrong and that simply the target article needs to be updated. I note that this talk page wouldnt be the place to discuss that, and also qualify my statement that it probably should be updated before we consider linking to it. If we want to use the term prisoner in the lede, given that Assange claims he is a political prisoner, this full term could certainly be used in the lede. 'Assange is confined at Belmarsh pending extradition and asserts he is a Political prisoner. That would be fine in the lede. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think we've got to take account of some major dictionaries including convicted in their primary definitions. People will assume they know what it means without reading what Wikipedia has written about it. I don't quite see what google counts has got to do with all this. NadVolum (talk) 07:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- roughly the same in terms of google hits for detained 252k and prisoner 293k. Here we can see the definition of prisoner doesnt read like our wikipedia destination reads, saying " a person deprived of liberty and kept under involuntary restraint, confinement, or custody" so maybe my assumption that it means convicted is wrong and that simply the target article needs to be updated. I note that this talk page wouldnt be the place to discuss that, and also qualify my statement that it probably should be updated before we consider linking to it. If we want to use the term prisoner in the lede, given that Assange claims he is a political prisoner, this full term could certainly be used in the lede. 'Assange is confined at Belmarsh pending extradition and asserts he is a Political prisoner. That would be fine in the lede. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think "detained" would falsely suggest he wasn't a prisoner. He definitely is.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Assange claims in the Guardian and letter to the King that he is a political prisoner, stating “As a political prisoner, held at your majesty’s pleasure on behalf of an embarrassed foreign sovereign, I am honoured to reside within the walls of this world class institution,” . That should be due and we can summarize to state that the article subject claims he is a political prisoner. I have added it to the body here and would support it being added to the lede, but that can be discussed here more (so I didnt bother to add that since we are discussing). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you want to state Prisoner you first need to deal with the target article which states "The term applies particularly to serving a prison sentence in a prison.". Assange hasnt been convicted. If you want to use Political prisoner instead this would be a different matter. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Summarising bio in lead
Softlemonades you've not attempted any justification for your recent revert. What is your objection to the phrases "Assange took an interest in computers from an early age." and "He founded WikiLeaks with a group of other activists in 2006. As its output was gaining significantly wider prominence in 2010, Assange became the organisation's spokesperson." Both of these summarise considerably more detailed coverage in the body.
You state in your edit summary "dont attribute to me
", even though the precise wording about events in 1996 used is directly attributable to you - why? Cambial — foliar❧ 15:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- In the absence of any reason whatsoever for an objection to this entirely neutral content, I’m going to put a version of it back on the page. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- You can put it back, but putting in edit summaries that youre using my language when making changes to things makes it sound like you have my consensus when you didnt bring it up, so I reverted it and asked you not to attribute it to me in the same edit history. Before I could say anything on your Talk page about your edit summaries again, the network went down. This is first day logged back in Softlemonades (talk) 20:36, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't have bothered reverting it if you didn't object to it. You can alway put your thoughts here if that sort of thing really bothers you but really I couldn't give a rat's arse about something like that. NadVolum (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- You are right, thank you for saying so calmly and helpfully. I wouldve clarified right away or self reverted my revert I dont know which but my connection died. But youre right I shouldve gone to Talk here or uw-mislead and not revert. Edit historyy isnt the home for it. Softlemonades (talk) 21:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't have bothered reverting it if you didn't object to it. You can alway put your thoughts here if that sort of thing really bothers you but really I couldn't give a rat's arse about something like that. NadVolum (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Trafigura
@NadVolum: You say there’s no mention of Assange in the Trafigura reporting. You did read the content before deleting though , right? Assange is mentioned several times , his direct involvement in the leaks being reported in a scholarly history of WL[1] and his being quoted by British press about the injunctions. Why do you claim Assange is not mentioned?
You’ve also restored unsourced content to the page - a link to nothing but a list of years - not supportive of any content - and content with no source cited. Please remove the unsourced content. Cambial — foliar❧ 09:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- No I missed where his nasme had been stuck into this article at the end of that section. They seem minor as head of Wikileaks rather than anything particular. The place I looked at mainly was 2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump which is the main article about this, and he is not mentioned even once there. Might I suggest that you put something there about his contribution before trying to stick a section here about it? Not that I think it really meakes the cut for a whole section rather than as something Wikileaks did with him in charge. 10:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've removed the unsourced contentent again. Sorry didn't noticed you'd done that I thought it was just moved aroundd by the other insertion. NadVolum (talk) 10:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just checked the two citations about Assange you had put in. The first was to Wikileaks and I couldn't get at it, I think we'd want a secondary cite. The second one commenting on the press and injunctions could be okay here but wouldn't justify dragging te whole section in. NadVolum (talk) 10:28, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a closer look. The secondary cite would be Fowler 2020, which discusses it in some detail (p.221):[2]
Carter-Ruck had managed to obtain what is known as a super-injunction. It prevented the Guardian from revealing any information covered by the injunction, including the fact that there was an injunction at all...
- Fowler then goes on to describe the publication in events surrounding the injunction in detail. He also writes (pp.223-224):[3]
It caused a furore. It was one thing to censor the press and quite another to silence Parliament. In the end, Carter-Ruck posted a statement on the company website saying that it had never been its intention to prevent the press reporting on Parliament and that it had since agreed on changes with the Guardian to the gagging order...
- The author describes that (pp.224-225):[4]
...Julian Assange launched a blistering attack on how free speech had not been saved in the UK. In a WikiLeaks online editorial, Assange argued that the secret gag order against the Trafigura report ‘remains in effect, and entirely prevents the reporting of the report’s contents’. He argued it was not the only one. The previous month he said the Guardian revealed it had been served with ten secret gag orders—so-called ‘super-injunctions’—since January. In 2008, the paper was served with six. In 2007, five. ‘Haven’t heard of these?’ asked Assange. ‘Of course not—these are secret gag orders; the UK press has given up counting regular injunctions.’
Assange said that because of the damaging threat of legal costs, UK newspapers had silently removed some of the original dumping investigations from their databases. ‘For example, the Independent’s “Toxic shame: thousands injured in African city” no-longer “exists” except at WikiLeaks,’...We are back at the UK censorship status quo, which may be described, without irony, as privatised feudalism.’
- (This is the Wikileaks article I linked to - you're right that should have used the secondary citation). Fowler later describes Assange's continuing involvement in the debate about such injunctions (p.225-228):[5]
Several months later he [Assange] confronted Professor Alasdair Mullis, an acclaimed expert on defamation law and the editor of the book Carter-Ruck on Libel and Privacy. At a debate sponsored by the European Union, Mullis pointed out that while he was not connected to Carter-Ruck, he did have an issue with the BBC.
- Fowler then goes on to describe the details of Assange's participation at the conference panel in some detail, with extensive quotes.
- Based on Fowler and the press reports, would you support a section focused on Assange's involvement in opposition to the injunction, and about the publishing of the report online (which many Twitter users then linked to as described in the newspaper reporting.) ? Cambial — foliar❧ 11:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC) Cambial — foliar❧ 11:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a closer look. The secondary cite would be Fowler 2020, which discusses it in some detail (p.221):[2]
- This still doesnt seem DUE for Assanges page Softlemonades (talk) 13:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- He was always a public face of WikiLeaks
Assange launched WikiLeaks eight years later, in January 2007, in Nairobi, at the World Social Forum.
[4] - Its the second longest section in the Wikileaks section and almost as long as the Unredacted cables section. We quote and emphasise Assanges editorials but not secondary sources and we say
The affair caused a furore
but not what that means or according to who. Theres background information that doesnt need to be there. - I dont think we have to remove all of it, but we should trim it and maybe merge to Early publications Softlemonades (talk) 15:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Your quote from CJR does not demonstrate that Assange was always the public face of Wikileaks. Your claim about the quotes are inaccurate; the quotes are reproduced and commented on in the secondary source already cited. The background information (presumably you mean the first 3 or 4 sentences) is necessary to contextualise Assange's actions to end the censorship i.e. publication of the report, editorials on wikileaks, comments to others. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Your quote from CJR does not demonstrate that Assange was always the public face of Wikileaks
He personally launched it at that event, and did a lot of other events. The wiki already saysFrom 2007 to 2010, Assange travelled continuously on WikiLeaks business, visiting Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America.
Your claim about the quotes are inaccurate; the quotes are reproduced and commented on in the secondary source already cited.
Theyre quotes from Assange, not from people assessing him or his or Wikileaks impact. Fowler comments on it but I think only repeats one of the quotes, but its still just Assanges quote. Were not quoting a secondary sources view. And the section mostly cites one secondary source.The background information (presumably you mean the first 3 or 4 sentences) is necessary to contextualise Assange's actions to end the censorship i.e. publication of the report, editorials on wikileaks, comments to others
Some of it can be trimmed, people can click on wiki links if they need more information.- Assange also isnt mentioned at 2006_Ivory_Coast_toxic_waste_dump#Minton_Report_and_legal_controversy or RJW_v_Guardian_News_and_Media_Ltd. Its not clear from there or the text on this article what his impact on it was. It sounds like he just was doing his job at Wikileaks and had opinions like always Softlemonades (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Theyre quotes from Assange
.. which are considered sufficiently noteworthy to reprint in a scholarly biography. This article is a biography of Assange.Assange also isnt mentioned at
a different article. This talk page is for discussing this article. Other articles are not sources for this one.Its not clear from there or the text on this article what his impact on it was
. This is, in fact, discussed in the second paragraph. But again, this is a biography of Assange and his work. This is an early example of Assange's work, hence its clear relevance to this article.- You've suggested this is "undue weight", and tagged it as such, which is about the weight given to sources, not to topics. What source do you think is being given excessive weight? Cambial — foliar❧ 18:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Theyre quotes from Assange.. which are considered sufficiently noteworthy to reprint in a scholarly biography. This article is a biography of Assange.
Fowlers biography isnt scolarly and like I said I dont think he reprints the first quote. Hes also the main source for the section.Assange also isnt mentioned at a different article. This talk page is for discussing this article. Other articles are not sources for this one.
I didnt say it was a source for this one, Cambial. Stop being silly. But if his impact wasnt important enough to mention in any other article, is it important enough to get this much focus?This is, in fact, discussed in the second paragraph.
No, Wikileaks' impact is discussed. Not Assanges. Theres no mention of his editorials having any impact.This tag may be used on sections of articles that discuss one aspect of the section topic in too much detail. This is especially true if the content focuses on a relatively unimportant aspect of the topic while ignoring items of greater importance or coverage.
The whole topic gets too much focus here- If you dont think one word you wrote can be trimmed you should re read WP:OWN Softlemonades (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Fowlers biography isnt scolarly
. The Fowler biography is scholarly. It's published by a major university press, and so will have been through that publisher's editorial board. Its author is a veteran and authoritative, highly-respected journalist. The book is in its second edition.I didnt say it was a source for this one
. No, but you did sayAssange also isnt mentioned at 2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump
, as though these other articles should somehow be the measure of what we include here. They are not, and whether it's mentioned on another article (which may be good or very poor, I don't know) is not relevant. If you stop making facetious arguments such as that, other editors will not be compelled to respond to your facetious argument in a way that you perceive as "silly
".Wikileaks' impact is discussed. Not Assanges
No, the book is a biography of Assange and makes clear that Assange was the editor of Wikileaks at the time they published this. The main bits Fowler writes about the editorialthat Assange wrote are: "While some celebrated what they saw as a victory for freedom of speech, Julian Assange launched a blistering attack on how free speech had not been saved in the UK. In a WikiLeaks online editorial, Assange argued that the secret gag order against the Trafigura report ‘remains in effect, and entirely prevents the reporting of the report’s contents’....Assange said that because of the damaging threat of legal costs, UK newspapers had silently removed some of the original dumping investigations from their databases. ‘For example, the Independent’s “Toxic shame: thousands injured in African city” no-longer “exists” except at WikiLeaks,’ Assange wrote: ‘Now is not the time to be distracted from this reality, or to see the unravelling of a grotesque attack on parliamentary reporting as a step forward; it is a return to last week. We are back at the UK censorship status quo, which may be described, without irony, as privatised feudalism.’ Assange wanted no congratulatory mutual praise or celebrations of victory." Fowler moves on to the debate with Mullis. The quote on the article is sourced directly from the Wikileaks editorial from which Fowler quotes, but we could potentially switch it for one of the quotes from that section of the book. I think the one used is more representative.If you dont think one word you wrote can be trimmed
We should trim things where there is a compelling reason to do so. You haven't suggested a reason. You haven't indicated why you think this is "too much" detail. Given you think it appropriate to add three paragraphs about an online chat allegedly involving Assange that lasted a couple of hours, this is an extraordinary claim. Your animosity toward Assange and emotions about the article are affecting your judgement here, it seems. Cambial — foliar❧ 22:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)The Fowler biography is scholarly. It's published by a major university press
The publisher doesnt make it scholarly. And its had more than 2 editions, or been updated more than twiceWikileaks' impact is discussed. Not Assanges No, the book is a biography
Thats great but I was responding to you talking about the second paragraph of the text in the section. And you knew that. But if you keep changing the subject the Talk page is pointlessGiven you think it appropriate to add three paragraphs about an online chat allegedly involving Assange that lasted a couple of hours, this is an extraordinary claim.
Your animosity toward Assange and emotions about the article are affecting your judgement here, it seems.
The chat was part of the indictment against him, and I was ok when others wanted to edit it. If you think three paragraphs on something from the indictment makes less sense than three paragraphs and a block quote on two editorials, then Id like to hear you explain why. You know youre supposed to comment on content, not editors. You could just as easily be accused of bias, and only one of us has been banned from Wikileaks and Assange related pages in the past. Softlemonades (talk) 13:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)- There are also accuracy problems
After a question had been tabled about the report in the House of Commons under parliamentary privilege, Trafigura's law firm Carter‑Ruck claimed the injunction was sub judice and tried to prevent discussion of the affair in parliament itself.[6][7][8]
- But looking at your sources
- Fowler says
In the end, Carter-Ruck posted a statement on the company website saying that it had never been its intention to prevent the press reporting on Parliament and that it had since agreed on changes with the Guardian to the gagging order so that the newspaper could report on the issue.
- The Guardian says
Carter-Ruck said in a letter and press release that, although the Speaker had discretion over sub judice questions, "we believe the proceedings to have been and to remain 'active' within the definition of House Resolution ... of 15 November 2001 in that arrangements have been made for the hearing of an application before the Court". Bercow had told MPs the previous day: "It is not sub judice under the house's rules ... There is no question of our own proceedings being in any way inhibited."
- And Press Gazette says
Solicitors Carter-Ruck said the final decision was subject to the Speaker’s discretion
- Why leave out Carter-Ruck saying they didnt intend to do that, and that they and everyone else agreed the decision was Parliaments? Softlemonades (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- There are no accuracy problems. You are confusing statements by the institution in question as though they are the reliable source. WP:MANDY is relevant: the law firm would say that. The reliable source says 'The law firm Carter-Ruck has made a fresh move that could stop an MPs' debate next week by claiming a controversial injunction it has obtained is "sub judice"... Carter-Ruck partner Adam Tudor today sent a letter to the Speaker, John Bercow, and also circulated it to every single MP and peer, saying they believed the case was "sub judice".' Carter-Ruck denying it does not change what the reliable source says. You've just been arguing that there is too much detail. Now you claim we should add more detail (Carter-Ruck's WP:MANDY-ish denial). You seem confused as to what you want. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- Bercow isnt from Carter-Ruck. And if someone says theyre saying the opposite of what we say they said, thats not ok. Press Gazette and Guardian both make it clear Carter-Ruck said it at the time and MPs thought there was still a risk. We cant say what they worried about was what happened in wiki voice, the RSes dont do that
- Im not saying more detail should be added. Im saying 1 that whats there is misleading to make it seem more important. And 2 none of it shows Assanges importance to the event. And 3 there are things that dont belong on a biography of Assange, because these editorials arent special. He wrote lots of editorials. These didnt change things, the text in the article makes that clear. It was Wikileaks publishing the report.
The publicity generated about the easy availability of the report on the Wikileaks website, and subsequently its publication by the Norwegian broadcaster NRK, led Carter-Ruck to agree to a modification of the injunction
- There are no accuracy problems. You are confusing statements by the institution in question as though they are the reliable source. WP:MANDY is relevant: the law firm would say that. The reliable source says 'The law firm Carter-Ruck has made a fresh move that could stop an MPs' debate next week by claiming a controversial injunction it has obtained is "sub judice"... Carter-Ruck partner Adam Tudor today sent a letter to the Speaker, John Bercow, and also circulated it to every single MP and peer, saying they believed the case was "sub judice".' Carter-Ruck denying it does not change what the reliable source says. You've just been arguing that there is too much detail. Now you claim we should add more detail (Carter-Ruck's WP:MANDY-ish denial). You seem confused as to what you want. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- Your quote from CJR does not demonstrate that Assange was always the public face of Wikileaks. Your claim about the quotes are inaccurate; the quotes are reproduced and commented on in the secondary source already cited. The background information (presumably you mean the first 3 or 4 sentences) is necessary to contextualise Assange's actions to end the censorship i.e. publication of the report, editorials on wikileaks, comments to others. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I wouldnt object to moving it to Wikileaks or List of material published by Wikileaks and we can rephrase that one line to attribute it. I just dont think it belongs here. Softlemonades (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Bercow isnt from Carter-Ruck.
Bercow is not a reliable source: The Guardian is the reliable source. They say what is written in the text, so the text is not misleading on that point (nor any other). Fowler has already made clear, in his biography of Assange, that Assange was the editor and publisher at the time, and Assange refers to their publication of the report in the editorials from which Fowler quotes. The canard that "oh well Assange wasn't important" is a facetious argument that does not bear scrutiny.He wrote lots of editorials
- that is likely wrong. What's relevant is that a scholarly biography discusses this editorial (written by the editor about the media organisation's recent publication) at length. I disagree about whether it belongs here. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Bercow is not a reliable source: The Guardian is the reliable source.
And Guardian and Press Gazette both quote Bercow. Three RSes say things that arent in the text.Assange was the editor and publisher at the time
Assange was editor for almost every Wikileaks release and publisher for every Wikileaks release.The canard that "oh well Assange wasn't important" is a facetious argument that does not bear scrutiny.
The text of the article doesnt explain his importance or give any impact that he directly made. You havent explained any importance or impact of his editorials.He wrote lots of editorials - that is likely wrong.
He wrote editorials and statements for every major releaseWhat's relevant is that a scholarly biography discusses this editorial (written by the editor about the media organisation's recent publication) at length.
The book talks about lots of things that dont get an entire section, and the book is about Wikileaks as much as about Assange as a person. Softlemonades (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I wouldnt object to moving it to Wikileaks or List of material published by Wikileaks and we can rephrase that one line to attribute it. I just dont think it belongs here. Softlemonades (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Only some of the releases and Assange's editorials are considered particularly noteworthy by reliable scholarly sources, such as this one. You say "You havent explained any importance or impact of his editorials.
" This is a biography explaining events in Assange's life, not an assessment of how significant each event was on the wider world. There are undoubtedly more examples of Assange's work prior to 2010 that are considered noteworthy to his biography in RS. They can be added in future as well. Their impact on the world at large is not relevant to inclusion. If that were a criterion, none of the content about the US pursuit of Assange would be included, because it had little impact on the wider world. Cambial — foliar❧ 19:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
This is a biography explaining events in Assange's life
Like I said before, its just as much about Wikileaks as about Assange. Stop calling it a biography like all the focus is on him. The full title isThe Most Dangerous Man In The World: The Inside Story On Julian Assange And WikiLeaks
orThe Most Dangerous Man In The World Julian Assange And WikiLeaks' Fight For Freedom
for a reason. Its nota biography explaining events in Assange's life
its a book about Wikileaks and Assanges role in it.There are undoubtedly more examples of Assange's work prior to 2010 that are considered noteworthy to his biography in RS
You still havent established that it was noteworthy about Assange, just that a 300 page book about Wikileaks talked about it. And its been moved there until you get real consensus it belongs here Softlemonades (talk) 23:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)- When I write
This is a biography explaining events in Assange's life
, by "this" I'm referring to this Wikipedia article. Consensus was established to include the section on this topic a month ago. One editor objecting a month later does not eradicate that. If you want to propose concrete changes to the text (which, despite all your rhetoric you're yet to do) then let's discuss. The argument "it's not really about Assange", despite scholarship stating it is about Assange, and a contemporary source referring to Assange in his role as editor, carries little to no force. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)- The section does seem excessively long in an article that is already bloated.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- There was no consensus a month ago. One editor dropping one objection a month ago is not consensus that it belongs here.
- I didnt even delete the text, I moved it to the Wikileaks article where i belongs. h
When I write This is a biography explaining events in Assange's life, by "this" I'm referring to this Wikipedia article.
And the text was mostly about Wikileaks, which is where it belonged.- Another editor has objected now. I notice you listen to them and trim it when they say its too long, but when I do you say its perfect and not one word should be trimmed Softlemonades (talk) 11:41, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- I asked the specific question "would you support this..?" and Nad replied in the affirmative. I've never said "
its perfect and not one word should be trimmed
" nor anything close to that in meaning. You need to stop making things up about what other editors have said: repeatedly doing so is uncivil, and the ban on such uncivility is a key pillar of how this site operates. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)- 1 I was obviously sarcastic
- 2
If you dont think one word you wrote can be trimmed We should trim things where there is a compelling reason to do so. You haven't suggested a reason.
I said it was too long. You reacted differently Softlemonades (talk) 12:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- I asked the specific question "would you support this..?" and Nad replied in the affirmative. I've never said "
- When I write
References
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World Julian Assange and WikiLeaks’ Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks’ Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. p. 221. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks’ Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 223–224. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks’ Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 224–225. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks’ Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 225–228. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks' Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 221–228. ISBN 9780522876857.
- ^ Leigh, David (15 October 2009). "Carter-Ruck in new move to stop debate in parliament". The Guardian. London.
- ^ Ponsford, Dominic (19 October 2009). "Trafigura: 'Never again should a newspaper be barred from reporting Parliament'". Press Gazette. London: Progressive Media International.
Rfc on "prisoner" in first sentence
Should the first sentence of the article say that Assange is a "prisoner fighting extradition to the US" or something like this? Jack Upland (talk) 05:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
@Jack Upland: It’s probably worth tightening up the wording slightly so it’s more specific - the “something like this” leaves a lot of room for interpretation. RfC’s work best when the proposal is absolutely clear. Cambial — foliar❧ 06:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, the RfC should be more specific and have more options, like prisoner, detained and political prisoner Softlemonades (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
I agree with Cambial that this probably fails RFC brief. Please add "Assange is incarcerated and claims he is a Political prisoner" as an option. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
I supported it but I think theres SNOW against it Softlemonades (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Silly idea for a first sentence by itself and combined with what is there presently it would be too long. There is a long discussion above, surely someone could have come up with an actual implementable proposal after all that discussion? NadVolum (talk) 12:15, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - This isn't something that should be mentioned in the first sentence of a biography. This is fairly slam dunk case per MOS:ROLEBIO. Also per MOS:FIRSTBIO which states the first sentence should state
"main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.)"
- Nemov (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC) - Oppose per above. Not something that should be mentioned first, especially the act of "fighting" extradition. 777burger user talk contribs 20:26, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Assange has been a prisoner since 2019. He has not been an editor or publisher since then. The first sentence is stuck in time and violates MOS:FIRST.Jack Upland (talk) 02:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - Being a prisoner is not what he is notable for. He is notable for Wikileaks, which makes him an activist, publisher, etc. That is what needs to be in the 1st sentence, not being a prisoner, even if that's what he is right now. We don't start biographies of historical figures with things like "Abraham Lincoln is a corpse" even though that's what he is right now, and likewise, we shouldn't say "Julian Assange is a prisoner" or anything like it. Fieari (talk) 05:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Good argument - but oh dear, I can just see the trolls doing that! ;-) NadVolum (talk) 08:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- We clearly say Lincoln is dead in the first sentence of his bio.
Abraham Lincoln (/ˈlɪŋkən/ LINK-ən; February 12, 1809 – April 15, 1865) was an American lawyer, politician, and statesman who served as the 16th president of the United States from 1861 until his assassination in 1865.
Jack Upland (talk) 05:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[Special:Contributions/124.168.92.109|124.168.92.109]] (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC)- We mention his assassination, which tells the reader he is dead, but don't use the words "is dead", "is a corpse", or "is {anything like dead}". The key to my argument is that things following the "is" in the lead sentence are the things for which the subject is primarily notable for. "Abraham Lincoln was an American lawyer, politician, and statesman ..." not "Abraham Lincoln was an American Lawyer, politician, statesman, and {corpse/assassination victim/dead man/etc}." The declarative "is/was" is important. Fieari (talk) 06:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- The date of death is also a give-away.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- We mention his assassination, which tells the reader he is dead, but don't use the words "is dead", "is a corpse", or "is {anything like dead}". The key to my argument is that things following the "is" in the lead sentence are the things for which the subject is primarily notable for. "Abraham Lincoln was an American lawyer, politician, and statesman ..." not "Abraham Lincoln was an American Lawyer, politician, statesman, and {corpse/assassination victim/dead man/etc}." The declarative "is/was" is important. Fieari (talk) 06:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- Support. He is currently a prisoner fighting extradition to the US, and has spent many years trying to avoid extradition, including living in an embassy. Seems to me he is currently known for either being a prisoner or trying to avoid being a prisoner. This isn't about what he is(i.e the "Lincoln corpse" example) it's about his status. 331dot (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- He's known for Wikileaks. That hasn't changed. Nemov (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- People are known for more than one thing Softlemonades (talk) 13:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Per MOS:ROLEBIO:
The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph.
Wikileaks is what made Assange notable. Nemov (talk) 16:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)- Thanks for copying and pasting that. More than one thing made him notable. You can disagree, thats ok Softlemonades (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- People are known for more than one thing Softlemonades (talk) 13:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- He's known for Wikileaks. That hasn't changed. Nemov (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Hes known for this as well as Wikileaks now, but I think the RfC should be restarted with more specific options. Like Cambial said
the “something like this” leaves a lot of room for interpretation. RfC’s work best when the proposal is absolutely clear
Softlemonades (talk) 13:40, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- The RfC is specific about 'first sentence'. You say 'as well as Wikileaks'. They can't both fit in the first sentence and being a prisoner is not what the US is trying to extradite him for. NadVolum (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
The RfC is specific about 'first sentence'.
What does that have to do with more specific phrasing options?They can't both fit in the first sentence
Yes they canbeing a prisoner is not what the US is trying to extradite him for
no one said that? Softlemonades (talk) 19:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- The RfC is specific about 'first sentence'. You say 'as well as Wikileaks'. They can't both fit in the first sentence and being a prisoner is not what the US is trying to extradite him for. NadVolum (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above.
I'd like to say he would not self identify as a prisoner, but it is hard to say. It might be interesting to put questions to him as to how he feels about it.That aside, we should not make that his identity for him. There are people whose primary notoriety is that they got incarcerate, but not Assange. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just noticed he wrote to King Charles describing himself as a "political prisoner". I still think it should not be in the first sentence. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE is pretty clear about avoiding contentious terms, only recognizing what the subject is most notable for, and preference for not overloading the first sentence (rather spreading out the information). His current incarceration is not only contentious, but it's not what he is primarily known for and it'd be far more naturally presented in the proceeding paragraph or two. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose in lead sentence, but not necessarily in lead paragraph (Summoned by bot) Being a prisoner is not at the core of the subject's notability--neither as an abstract matter when attempting to use the opening statement to describe the topic with consideration of all relevant context, nor as WP:WEIGHT applies as a more formulaic matter. As such, prioritizing such a description in the lead sentence in this fashion is not just counterintuitive, it's just plain awkward and unencyclopedic. Virtually the entire following four and a half paragraphs are concerned with discussing the circumstances and particulars of Assange's detention, so it's not as if the average reader is likely to lack insight to his status as a consequence of the article's format, even if they were somehow unaware when arriving here. I will say that, it is a also a little awkward, the fashion in which those paragraphs follow, without a single statement summarizing and setting up discussion of those details at the head, so an explicit statement pertaining to Assange's detention somewhere in the second or third sentence would not necessarily be a bad idea. But putting that info into the lead sentence (where his most fundamental features as a notable subject are being summarized), as proposed, just does not lead to a smooth reading or optimal clarity for the reader. SnowRise let's rap 20:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose – sounds like poor writing. User:Fieari also makes a good point. This reminds me of the lead sentences that say "X is a ..., ..., and convicted felon" – it just reads like an attempt to portray the the subject a little more negatively. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose – per others, this isn't his primary notability and would 'dis-joint' the relatively sequential account which leads towards his current incarceration. Pincrete (talk) 07:37, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - As already mentioned before, his being a prisoner is not what made him notable. Also, his prisoner status can change at any time in the future. JoseJan89 (talk) 10:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- And we can change the first sentence at any time.Jack Upland (talk) 00:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
O'Hagan opinion on FBI letter
RSPs quote lots of things that arent encyclopedic or noteworthy for wikipedia. O'Hagan isnt an FBI or law enforcement expert. His refusal to cooperate belongs, his analysis of FBI doesnt
Plus According to Andrew O'Hagan, during the 2011 Egyptian revolution after Mubarak closed the mobile phone networks, Assange and others at WikiLeaks hacked into Nortel to reverse it.[1]
I think there are better opinions we could add, like Gabriel Shipton saying they might be preparing another indictment to strengthen the charges. Hes kind of an expert on the Assange case. But I think the speculation might be early to add Softlemonades (talk) 15:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- That bit from O'Hagan sounds very unlikely indeed - I wonder what sort of thing he garbled into that! If the FBI were willing to try and use Thordarson in the indictment I guess they could try using this to bolster their case! I find the FBI drive to do anything they can incredible and very disquieting. NadVolum (talk) 18:38, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- This is turning into a forum.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think probably what happened is O'Hagan mixed up Assange hacking into Nortel when he was twenty with Wikileaks releasing documents at that time of the Arab Spring. Basically got his dates wrong and thought it had something to do with the then current situation. NadVolum (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Some twitterati think it is rubbish as well. I can't see anyone else has picked it up pro or con. NadVolum (talk) 12:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Assange was asked the question about what he did tofor the business in Egypt in Julian Assange: The man who came to dinner, the man who saved Egypt and the answer there? "it's difficult to disentangle". And that's it besides saying about a time he spent in Egypt and learnt something about the place. I'm even more certain the O'Hagan story is just mixed up - if you read the Ghosting artice you'll see he was discussing Assanges hacking when young at the same time. NadVolum (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ O’Hagan, Andrew (2014-03-06). "Ghosting". London Review of Books. Vol. 36, no. 5. ISSN 0260-9592. Retrieved 2023-05-02.
Further evidence of CIA spying/How Julian affected the British establishment
El Pais has published further evidence today that the CIA was spying on Assange’s privileged conversations with his lawyers. Where should we put this?[5] Editors may be interested in this fascinating diagram of how Julian's work has impacted UK establishment figures.[6] If anyone can find an appropriate version of the graphic, we should add it to Julian's bio. Some writers have concluded that the UK courts handling of Julian's case is partly the result of the connections made in the diagram. Burrobert (talk) 06:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have a folder marked GW, I have no connection to the company. Lets wait and see what the court actually finds. Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- Has somebody said you worked for them and have you got data in the folder they'd really want? Or what is the purpose of that remark? NadVolum (talk) 11:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- No, but my point is its not evidence, its an accusation. So lets wait to see what the court finds, we are not a newspaper. Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Wikipedia is not a court. It paraphrases what is in reliable sources. Which can go wrong of course, like I'm pretty certain the quote in the article from O'Hagan I discuss above is wrong but it is in the article and would probably need an RfC to remove. We do not need to wait for court sentences. But even cour sentences can be wrong. NadVolum (talk) 11:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- But we also do not have to include everything either, I do not see what these accusations add, that we don't already say (that he was spied on). Slatersteven (talk) 11:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- The article already suffers form bloat because everything ever said about him must go in. When it is saying what we are saying, why? Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- You're changing your grounds. PLease put in your actual grounds to start with rather than doing gish gallop. Anyway Surveillance of Julian Assange is an obvious place for this and I believe it would be due there. The graphic of the relationship between the various groups in Britain is interesting but we'd definitely need a reliable source to draw the lines. NadVolum (talk) 12:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have long argued that we need to stop adding odd lines here and there, that has never changed. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with NadVolum, it belongs at Surveillance of Julian Assange
- If we get more information we can add it here. Right now its allegations without all the information. Theres a police report that we dont know what it says, or why the information wasnt included. Adding all of that here would be too much, and just the headline information would be misleading. Theres an article dedicated to this, and it should go there
- When we get more information and can explain it clearly and without confusing people or taking up a lot of space, we can add it here Softlemonades (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- You're changing your grounds. PLease put in your actual grounds to start with rather than doing gish gallop. Anyway Surveillance of Julian Assange is an obvious place for this and I believe it would be due there. The graphic of the relationship between the various groups in Britain is interesting but we'd definitely need a reliable source to draw the lines. NadVolum (talk) 12:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Wikipedia is not a court. It paraphrases what is in reliable sources. Which can go wrong of course, like I'm pretty certain the quote in the article from O'Hagan I discuss above is wrong but it is in the article and would probably need an RfC to remove. We do not need to wait for court sentences. But even cour sentences can be wrong. NadVolum (talk) 11:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- No, but my point is its not evidence, its an accusation. So lets wait to see what the court finds, we are not a newspaper. Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- Has somebody said you worked for them and have you got data in the folder they'd really want? Or what is the purpose of that remark? NadVolum (talk) 11:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
I wasn't aware you had created an article dedicated to the surveillance of Julian inside the Ecuadorian embassy. That would be a good place for the new El Pais material. Still looking for a non-copyrighted version of the chart mentioned above. Burrobert (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I found so much and that section of the page was so long that if I added it all there would have been a split right away so I just started a new page and added a Main Page link to that section of the Assange page Softlemonades (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have added a paragraph about the El Pais material to that article. Apparently one of our editors thinks the article is biased in some way. Burrobert (talk) 15:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think it was an IP editor. There is a message on Talk Softlemonades (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think that comes under WP:JDL. It's always worth trying to see if there's anything in particular that triggers that but they said nothing specific to justify the tag so I'll remove it. NadVolum (talk) 23:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- That was what I thought but didnt want to remove the tag since I had started the article Softlemonades (talk) 23:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have added a paragraph about the El Pais material to that article. Apparently one of our editors thinks the article is biased in some way. Burrobert (talk) 15:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
RfC: Assange and the Trafigura report
Should the following subsection about Assange publishing a report into the 2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump be included in the article, beneath "early publications" in the section "WikiLeaks"? Cambial — foliar❧ 14:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
<Proposed section>:
Trafigura report and super-injunction
In September 2009 Assange helped publish the Minton Report, a scientific report about the 2006 Ivory Coast toxic waste dump.[1][2][3][4] Thirty‑thousand claimants were suing the oil firm Trafigura in London, in one of the largest class-action suits brought before a British court, after the firm had illegally exported toxic waste and then had it dumped in Abidjan in Ivory Coast.[5][6] When the Guardian newspaper had asked the company about the report, it responded by having its law firm Carter‑Ruck obtain a super-injunction (in RJW v Guardian News and Media Ltd) to prevent discussion by the media of either the contents of the report or the existence of the injunction itself.[1][4] After publication of the document itself, Assange published two editorials on Wikileaks about the situation:[4][7]
Assange argued that the secret gag order "remains in effect, and entirely prevents the reporting of the report's contents"....Assange said that because of the damaging threat of legal costs, UK newspapers had silently removed some of the original dumping investigations from their databases. "For example, the Independent's 'Toxic shame: thousands injured in African city' no-longer 'exists' except at WikiLeaks"
Wikileaks maintained the report on its site and linked to it on the social network Twitter, where they encouraged journalists to break the injunction's censorship. After a question was tabled about the report in the House of Commons under parliamentary privilege, Trafigura's law firm Carter‑Ruck claimed the injunction was sub judice and tried to prevent discussion of the affair in parliament itself.[4][8][9] The publicity generated about the easy availability of the report on the Wikileaks website, and subsequently its publication by the Norwegian broadcaster NRK, led Carter-Ruck to agree to a modification of the injunction.[4][10] The affair caused a furore and prompted a wider discussion in the British press about the continued use of super-injunctions.[4][9][11][12][13]
As Wikileaks' editor, Assange commented about super-injunctions to the publishing industry trade publication Journalism.co.uk that "In 2008, the paper was served with six. In 2007, five. Haven't heard of these? Of course not, these are secret gag orders; the UK press has given up counting regular injunctions".[14][4]
References
- ^ a b Chadwick, Andrew (2017). "Power, Interdependence, and Hybridity in the Construction of Political News: Understanding WikiLeaks". The Hybrid Media System: Politics and Power (Second ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 103–129. ISBN 978-0-19-069673-3.
The paper [The Guardian] had used WikiLeaks data early on. During 2009 the British high court upheld so-called superinjunctions preventing the Guardian from reporting on Barclays Bank's alleged tax avoidance and oil trading company Trafigura's alleged dumping of toxic waste in the Ivory Coast. Superinjunctions forbid all media discussion of the injunctions they cover, so WikiLeaks agreed to host documents that British judges had ruled must be kept secret, undermining the court's decision.
- ^ Smartt, Ursula; Mansfield, Michael (2014). "Freedom of Public Information". Media & Entertainment Law (Second ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 301–337. ISBN 978-0-415-66270-3.
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange describes this process as 'principled leaking', and all material is vetted by a team of experts for authenticity...The website has become a conduit for publishing material under its premise that every person has a right to freedom of information. It was WikiLeaks that exposed the full Trafigura scandal by releasing the (super)injuncted documents.
- ^ Oborne, Peter (2019). "He's a Hero, not a Villain". British Journalism Review. 30 (3). London: SAGE Publishing: 43–47. doi:10.1177/0956474819873574.
Julian Assange is responsible for breaking more stories than all the rest of us put together. Here are examples of a tiny handful of the stories he has published or helped to publish...The Guardian obtained a report into the effects of waste-dumping in Africa by the oil giant Trafigura. After Trafigura took The Guardian to court to get an injunction, it was WikiLeaks that published the suppressed report by John Minton, which detailed the severe health effects that could be caused by the toxic waste...These are stonking good stories, each and every one in the public interest, which we would not know but for Julian Assange.
- ^ a b c d e f g Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks' Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 221–228. ISBN 978-0-522-87685-7.
- ^ "'Dirty tricks' over toxic waste". BBC News. London: BBC. 17 September 2009.
One of the largest class action lawsuits ever brought before the British courts is about to be settled. The case follows the illegal dumping of toxic waste in the Ivory Coast three years ago, which has been the subject of a continuing Newsnight investigation.
- ^ "Dumping ground". Al-Jazeera. 21 May 2009.
In the largest class action in British history, human rights lawyer, Martyn Day, is representing 30,000 Ivorians against the world's third-largest oil trader, Trafigura.
- ^ Assange, Julian (14 Oct 2009). "Guardian Still Under Secret Toxic Waste Gag". Wikileaks. Archived from the original on 27 June 2021.
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timestamp mismatch; 1 May 2012 suggested (help) - ^ Leigh, David (15 October 2009). "Carter-Ruck in new move to stop debate in parliament". The Guardian. London: Guardian Media Group.
The law firm Carter-Ruck has made a fresh move that could stop an MPs' debate next week by claiming a controversial injunction it has obtained is 'sub judice'...Carter-Ruck partner Adam Tudor today sent a letter to the Speaker, John Bercow, and also circulated it to every single MP and peer, saying they believed the case was 'sub judice'. If correct, it would mean that, under Westminster rules to prevent clashes between parliament and the courts, a debate planned for next Wednesday could not go ahead.
- ^ a b Ponsford, Dominic (19 October 2009). "Trafigura: 'Never again should a newspaper be barred from reporting Parliament'". Press Gazette. London: Progressive Media International.
The injunction had already been rendered obsolete by the whistle-blowers' website Wikileaks which published the Minton report in full some weeks ago – making it easily findable online via Google. Last week Carter Ruck claimed that the injunction as phrased stopped The Guardian from reporting a parliamentary question asked by MP Paul Farrelly about the matter. On Tuesday they allowed the injunction to be varied to allow the reporting of Farrelly's question.
- ^ Sifry, Micah L. (2011). Wikileaks and the Age of Transparency. Berkeley: Counterpoint. ISBN 9781582437798.
The only thing The Guardian could say was that the case involved Carter-Ruck, a prominent legal firm that specializes in working with global corporations. The British blogosphere went into overdrive speculating about the case, and swiftly zeroed in on a report, posted to WikiLeaks, connecting the oil commodity firm Trafigura to toxic dumping off the coast of Africa. Apparently Carter-Ruck was trying to keep the issue from surfacing publicly and had obtained a court injunction barring coverage of a pending question that was being raised on the matter by a member of Parliament. The word 'Trafigura' also took off on Twitter, making Carter-Ruck's legal efforts essentially moot. It was a textbook example of WikiLeaks at its most powerful, preventing the suppression of information that everyone agreed deserved to be aired in public.
- ^ Cohen, Noam (19 October 2009). "Twitter and a Newspaper Untie a Gag Order". The New York Times.
- ^ Bowers, Mary (17 October 2009). "Trafigura Report on Dumped Waste in Ivory Coast Revealed". The Times. London.
- ^ "How the Trafigura story came to be told". The Guardian. London. 16 October 2009.
- ^ Townend, Judith (19 October 2009). "Trafigura and the Minton Report: 'Super injunction' was lifted after the horse had bolted". Journalism.co.uk. Brighton: Mousetrap Media Ltd. Archived from the original on 27 May 2012.
<end>
!Votes
- Include The report and subsequent injunction, and the report's publication on WikiLeaks, were the subject of news coverage in several national newspapers and the BBC,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] as well as some coverage in the international press.[8][9][10] WikiLeaks was directly referred to in debate in the UK national parliament. Academic sources including a textbook on Media & Entertainment Law,[11] a chapter on WikiLeaks in a work on political communication in the media,[12], and a history of Assange and WikiLeaks,[13] detail the publication and its effect. The latter reproduces Assange's editorial at the time of publication.[13] Other sources on the history of Assange/WikiLeaks discuss Assange's publication of the report and its significance.[14][15][16] It's directly relevant to the article subject and part of a neutral narrative. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
References
- ^ Ponsford, Dominic (19 October 2009). "Trafigura: 'Never again should a newspaper be barred from reporting Parliament'". Press Gazette. London: Progressive Media International.
The injunction had already been rendered obsolete by the whistle-blowers' website Wikileaks which published the Minton report in full some weeks ago – making it easily findable online via Google. Last week Carter Ruck claimed that the injunction as phrased stopped The Guardian from reporting a parliamentary question asked by MP Paul Farrelly about the matter. On Tuesday they allowed the injunction to be varied to allow the reporting of Farrelly's question.
- ^ Beckford, Martin; Watt, Holly (16 October 2009). "Secret Trafigura report said 'likely cause' of illness was release of toxic gas from dumped waste". The Daily Telegraph.
- ^ Leigh, David (13 October 2009). "Trafigura drops bid to gag Guardian over MP's question". The Guardian.
- ^ Bowers, Mary (7 June 2023). "Trafigura report on dumped waste in Ivory Coast revealed". The Times.
- ^ "'Toxic waste' report gag lifted". BBC News. 17 October 2009.
- ^ "Ivorian dumping report published". BBC News. 17 October 2009.
- ^ Beckford, Martin; Watt, Holly (16 October 2009). "Secret Trafigura report said 'likely cause' of illness was release of toxic gas from dumped waste". The Daily Telegraph.
- ^ Todd, Tony (14 October 2009). "Press freedom prevails after parliament gag attempt is dropped". France 24.
- ^ Cohen, Noam (19 October 2009). "Twitter and a Newspaper Untie a Gag Order". The New York Times.
- ^ "Twitter helped quash injunction, UK newspaper says". Reuters. 15 October 2009.
- ^ Smartt, Ursula; Mansfield, Michael (2014). "Freedom of Public Information". Media & Entertainment Law (Second ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 301–337. ISBN 978-0-415-66270-3.
- ^ Chadwick, Andrew (2017). "Power, Interdependence, and Hybridity in the Construction of Political News: Understanding WikiLeaks". The Hybrid Media System: Politics and Power (Second ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 103–129. ISBN 978-0-19-069673-3.
- ^ a b Fowler, Andrew (2020). The Most Dangerous Man In The World: Julian Assange and WikiLeaks' Fight for Freedom (2nd ed.). Melbourne: Melbourne University Press. pp. 221–228. ISBN 978-0-522-87685-7.
- ^ Oborne, Peter (2019). "He's a Hero, not a Villain". British Journalism Review. 30 (3). London: SAGE Publishing: 43–47. doi:10.1177/0956474819873574.
Julian Assange is responsible for breaking more stories than all the rest of us put together. Here are examples of a tiny handful of the stories he has published or helped to publish...The Guardian obtained a report into the effects of waste-dumping in Africa by the oil giant Trafigura. After Trafigura took The Guardian to court to get an injunction, it was WikiLeaks that published the suppressed report by John Minton, which detailed the severe health effects that could be caused by the toxic waste...These are stonking good stories, each and every one in the public interest, which we would not know but for Julian Assange.
- ^ Sifry, Micah L. (2011). Wikileaks and the age of transparency. Berkeley: Counterpoint. ISBN 9781582437798.
The only thing The Guardian could say was that the case involved Carter-Ruck, a prominent legal firm that specializes in working with global corporations. The British blogosphere went into overdrive speculating about the case, and swiftly zeroed in on a report, posted to WikiLeaks, connecting the oil commodity firm Trafigura to toxic dumping off the coast of Africa. Apparently Carter-Ruck was trying to keep the issue from surfacing publicly and had obtained a court injunction barring coverage of a pending question that was being raised on the matter by a member of Parliament. The word 'Trafigura' also took off on Twitter, making Carter-Ruck's legal efforts essentially moot. It was a textbook example of WikiLeaks at its most powerful, preventing the suppression of information that everyone agreed deserved to be aired in public.
- ^ Greenberg, Andy (2012). This machine kills secrets: how WikiLeakers, cypherpunks and hacktivists aim to free the world's information. London: Penguin Books. ISBN 9780753540510.