Russia: Demographics & ethnography Start‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||
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About the un-sourced figures and false citations of sources.
Hi, I'm Sextus Caedicius. Why do you keep adding un-sourced figures and use fake citations Kisteti? Claims on wikipedia have to be sourced, and it's most definitely not allowed to use sources which don't confirm your claim(as you did with magas.ru), this is hurtful to the spirit of Wikipedia. If these fake numbers and citations keep being added I'll have to contact an administrator, You're free to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions! --Sextus Caedicius (talk) 12:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)Sextus Caedicius
The numbers are incomplete first of all. And my edit was reverted to an even more false edit. The diaspora countries like Belgium, Norway, and other European countries are not even added.
Kisteti (talk) 00:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- If you want to add Diaspora countries and their populations you need sources, these are very important here on Wikipedia, or else it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. The numbers we have on the total population of Ingush people are the ones from the 2010 Russian national census and 2018 population estimate of Ingush people. Ingush people number roughly 450,000k according to the most trustworthy sources at hand, if you want to know how diaspora population numbers should look, take a look at Chechens and Ossetians, every number needs to be sourced. This is the last warning: if you keep adding unsourced figures I'm going to have to contact an Administrator. Dyal heqal lold. --Sextus Caedicius (talk) 04:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
The Chechen page has a number of 2 million based on an article were Kadyrov just says a randon number. You call this a valid source? Kisteti (talk) 17:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
This source says more than 500K just in the Republic of Ingushetia [1] This source says in the world over 700K [2] If Kadyrov's words are a valid source, than these are for sure.
--Kisteti (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Kisteti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I have explained to the mentioned user several times in edit history and the talk page that he can't just add population numbers he himself has arrived at(No Original research), the source behind the total population number backs the claim of -+450,000, however the mentioned user just keeps adding his own original research (e.g. vandalised past 4th warning). Sextus Caedicius (talk) 23:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
If there are over 500k just in Ingushetia, how can there be just 450,000 in the world then? I have added sources, google yourself 'Население Ингушетии 2020 год'. You'll see multiples sources verifying, it's OVER 500,000 just in Ingushetia.
--Kisteti (talk) 16:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- The sources @Kisteti: put with the claim of there being 700-750.000 are not official sources with data from any census or governmental estimates, they are from unsourced articles. The claim to there being 507.000 Ingush in Ingushetia alone is dishonest use of estimates. The estimate is that the population of the entire republic of Ingushetia is 507.000 people, including Russians, Chechens, Ossetians and every other ethnicity living in it, not only Ingush. I have reverted the numbers to what the 2010 Russian Census says. Deni Mataev (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
The sources I provide are not some randon excel file. If you guys won’t stop vandalising the Ingush page. I will start changing false information on the Chechen page. Because the 2 million number is based on an article of Kadyrov saying som random number, as well as the Syrian population numbers and EU, and others. Your sources are not actual data, just estimates as well. There is no Ossetian population in Ingushetia, and the Russian population is very small. The variety of people of different nationalities is much higher in Chechnya. Always was. Kisteti (talk) 02:03, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Kisteti: Again, the articles you provide are unsourced and not official statistics, in addition to dishonest use of other actual sources. The ones I provided are actual numbers of the Russian Census of 2010, not "some excel sheet". It is you who's vandalizing this page and spreading false information. From the 2010 Census it was shown that 93.46% of Ingushetia was Ingush. If we had applied this percentage to the estimate of 507.000 it would be around 470.000 Ingushes in Ingushetia. However this would be so called "original research" and therefore not permissible on Wikipedia. So your number using the entire population of Ingushetia in 2020 is wrong. And then to the issue of where you get your 200.000+ Ingushes outside of Ingushetia. There is no data to substantiate this claim. Either substantiate your claims with proper data or revert it back to the 2010 Census numbers Deni Mataev (talk) 09:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Deni Mataev: Filing complaints?? I provided sources.
https://showdata.gks.ru/report/278930/ => 2019
There is no data of Chechens outside Russia aswell. Just some articles and an estimation.
Hypocrisy is a thing. Look it up.
--Kisteti (talk) 07:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Kisteti: This is not about the number of Chechens, I do not see why you keep bringing this up as it has no bearing on this subject. You are free to go on the talk page there and argue for a consensus to change it. You have not however provided legitimate sources, no actual data from any census or official data, only some superficial articles which themselves are unsourced. And as I've said earlier you've put an 2020 estimate of 507.061 people FOR THE ENTIRE POPULATION of Ingushetia as Ingush, however we know for a fact that Ingushetia has several non-Ingush residents. It is outright false and dishonest to put this number up, as we know from the 2010 census that Ingush made up 93.46% of the population, so there is a 6% population at minimum which isn't Ingush. This is not an insignificant issue.
- In addition the only country outside of Russia with a large Ingush population is Kazakhstan at 15.000+ people. There is no data, estimates or any sources of any kind, from any governmental institution, to suggest a population of 200.000 or more outside of these countries. I will once again revert the numbers back to the Russian 2010 Census, which should stand until the Russian 2020 Census in October. Wait until then to change anything regarding the number of Ingush people Deni Mataev (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I bring this up, because for some reason only Chechens keep altering info on the Ingush page. We all know that a lot of information on the Ingush is being altered because of hostility at the moment. Plus, there is no data on Chechens outside of Russia, except for Kazakhstan. All the rest are estimations based on articles. I provided the same articles, and you keep changing it here and not on the Chechens page. For ex., the Ingush diaspora is very big in Turkey, and countries like Belgium, where the biggest Ingush diaspora in Europe is located. Many official networks and documentaries about the Ingush people always state that there are more or less 700,000 Ingush in the people in the world. Look up the project «Инугшский монолит»
PS: The last link I provided is from the same page you provided, and it clearly states the population of the republic of Ingushetia exceeds 502K in 2019.
So the page is going to be like this. You can only argue the estimation of the Ingush overal in the world, but then again you cannot disprove it as well. Kisteti (talk) 00:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Kisteti: You again fail to recognize that not all of Ingushetia is populated by Ingush people. Proportionally there are more non-Ingush in Ingushetia than there are non-Chechens in Chechnya according to the 2010 Census. It is outright false to say that the entire population of Ingushetia is Ingush. Additionally, you don't base facts on whether something can't be disproven, but rather with what can be proven. You cannot prove or provide any evidence to suggest that there are more than 200.000 Ingush people outside of Russia and Kazakhstan combined. You are forwarding an entirely false narrative which is unfactual.
- I will have a moderator come to settle this dispute, since we cannot come to terms Deni Mataev (talk) 13:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
You keep making up these weird excuses, we both know Chechnya is home to many non-Chechens. This was so throughout history. The numbers are there. I sent the last link, you can’t even disprove it anymore, cause it’s even from the same source you provided. Ask a moderator, I don’t care. You Chechens have a habit of altering parts of Ingush history. Kisteti (talk) 06:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Vandalism of the ‘History‘ section by user Reiner Gavriel
Why do you keep removing sourced material Reiner Gavriel and adding unproved theories? Ghalghai has nothing to do with the term Kxakxal. They do not even sound the same. Since you claim to be Japanese, that means that you don’t know the Ingush language. Same goes for the term “Nakchoy” which is only related to Chechens, specifically lowland Chechens (Ichkeria). As you can see all my edits show actual pages from books that prove every statement. You are not doing this. If you keep changing it I will ask an administrator to review. PS: You also are removing the term Kists from the page. See talk section about “Kists” This has already been agreed upon. You need to stop vandalising this page. --Kavkasos (talk) 00:26, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hello. First of all, what has my ethnicity to do with anything? Am I not allowed to be interested about other nations, inform myself about those? Are you going to forbid me from doing so? Second, I'm not Japanese, I'm partly Japanese. Kxa-kxal sounds more like Ghalghaj than the term Gelai, which you somehow accept despite the book you use as source claiming that the Gelai are Scythian and live in Dagestan. The first actual mention of the Ghalghaj as Kolkan backs up the theory of Kxa-kxal -> Ghalghaj. I did not remove the term Kist in any of my edits. The term "Nakhchoy" is not only related to Chechens, it was the selfname for Chechens and Ingush equally. Your claim around "specifically lowland Chechens" proves to me that you are not properly informed about this topic, since Ichkerian Chechens use the term Nokhchi, while the mountanious Chebarloy (still) say Nakhchi. All of my edits were backed up with sources while you have been warned several times and temporary banned prior for vandalising this page. --Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:21, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
You are allowed to be interested, but your lack of knowledge of the Ingush language is apparent, as Kxa-Kxal does not even sound anything like Ghal-Ghai. Plus, Kalkan is just a deviation from the term Ghalghai, this has been confirmed by famous hsitorians E. Kusheva and A. Genko. Gelai comes from the ancient deity Gel (Gal), and was considered the God of the Sun and sky, as Ingush and Chechens were pagan and the main Gods were Gal and Dyal. I can provide a dozen sources were it shows that Nakhchoy first and foremost was referred to lowland Chechens. Plus, there are only a couple sources beginning from the mid 19th crntury, that claim that the Ingush are considered Nakhchoy. Yet these are dubious, because earlier researchers claimed that that Ingush referred to themselves as Ghalghai. (See Pallas, Gyuldenshtadt, Bronevskiy).
About the part of the Gelai and Legai being Scythian, we both know very well that Lesghins are not Scythian, am I correct? So your point is already invalid. Secondly, all of the peoples of North Caucasus were called Scythian once, the same as they were called Circassian once. You should be aware of this. Even more so, here is another confirmation of the location of the Gelai See link: https://books.google.be/books?id=K3I4Y8gspxAC&pg=RA1-PA11&dq=Гелами+Галгаями&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3vY2YyP7qAhWvM-wKHWwRCPYQ6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=Гелами%20Галаями%20Галгаями%20Казбека&f=false
As you can see Strabo and Ptolemy locate the Gelai in the vicinity of the River Terek and Mount Kazbek. Plus, a lot of authors of the 19th century confirmed this. I provided the sources, and can provide more. --Kavkasos (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2020
Hey, I would like to correct some incorrect information on the Ingush page Ingush_people. Specificially the 'Etymology' and 'History' section. For some reason one user is allowed to alter information, others are not? I have some sourced material.
Etymology
Please change X (current): While popular folklore claims the endonym Ghalghaj comes from the word ghala (meaning tower/fortress, today city), historical development indicates it is a composition of the words kha and khal, which directly means three cities. Inhabitants of the 3 settlements Targim, Khamkhi and Egikal, who operated as one, started taking over surrounding Nakh areas and building the grounds of what would later turn into the modern Ingush nation.[1] This is supported by the first actual mention of the word in 1590, when the "mountain people Kolkan" attacked 2 Russian ambassadors in the Darial pass.[2]
Y (change to): The ethnonym Ingush derives from the Ghalghai village Angusht (Ongushté) in western Ingushetia. When Russians first came into contact with the Ghalghai people in Angusht, they mistakenly called them 'Angushi', which is preserved today in the form of 'Ingushi'.[3] While it is commonly accepted that the endonym Ghalghai comes from the Ingush word "ghala" (meaning tower/fortress), professors E.I. Krupnov and B.A. Alborov state that the term Ghalghai, is of a more ancient origin. Alborov noted, that the word Gal (Hal, Al), was once associated with "god" or "deity" among the ancient Ingush. Later on, the Ingush, as well as Chechens, referred to God as Dala ("Da" + "Ala"), litterally meaning "father-God".[4]
History
Please change X (current): In 1770, the elders of 24 Ingush tribes signed a treaty with Russia,[5] but are commonly considered under Russian rule from 1810, when 6 major teips of todays Ingushetia, signed an oath to fight off the enemies of Russia, particularly the Chechens and Kabardians.[6] Under Soviet rule during World War II the Ingush, along with the Chechens were falsely accused of collaborating with the Nazis and thus, the entire population was deported to the Kazakh and Kirghiz Soviet Socialist Republics. The Ingush were rehabilitated in the 1950s, after the death of Joseph Stalin, and allowed to return home in 1957, though by that time western Ingush lands had been ceded to North Ossetia.
Y (change to): The Ingush never had a feudal system.[7] They were always governerned by highly esteemed selected elders among the Ingush clans. In 1770, the elders of 24 Ingush tribes signed a treaty with Russia,[8] but are commonly considered under Russian rule from 1810. The Ingush, however, considered themselves independent, and were unwilling to conform to Russian laws, which led to various skirmishes with Russian forces in Ingushetia.[9]. Under Soviet rule during World War II the Ingush, along with the Chechens were falsely accused of collaborating with the Nazis and thus, the entire population was deported to the Kazakh and Kirghiz Soviet Socialist Republics. The Ingush were rehabilitated in the 1950s, after the death of Joseph Stalin, and allowed to return home in 1957, though by that time western Ingush lands had been ceded to North Ossetia. Akylas7 (talk) 05:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
@Akylas7, changed it, now it will be better if Chechens focus on Chechen articles and Ingush on Ingush. If you have any problems with the Chechen article then lets use the talk page again and come to a consensus. Asalamu Aleykum --Goddard2000 (talk) 17:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
@Goddard2000 Fair enough. Va'aleikum Assalam. --Akylas7 (talk) 17:14, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Creating a hostile article
Reiner Gavriel Why are you portraying the Ingush as traitors? It is not wise to generalize on all the Ingush people, because of several persons. Don't forget that part of the Chechens, als served in Ermolov's corps, should this be mentioned in the Chechen article as well? how about the Treaty of 1657? Or Ushurma Okotskiy (Akki) with his group, who was the first traitor to serve the Russians in 1588? Why are you emphasizing on this in the Ingush history section?
Take an example from Goddard2000, you are creating hostilities between Ingush and Chechens. --Akylas7 (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I wasn't aware that I am generalizing them as traitors. I simply added an important detail, since the previous sentence portrays a wrong image. The Ingush did not follow the Russian law and had their clashes like in Nazran in 1858, yet many of them joined the Russian ranks in the war and supported the decision of integrating themselves into the Russian empire. The Chechens that served in Ermolovs corps were a minority, while the majority of the Chechen people fought or supported the fight against Russia. If the majority of the Chechens did have allied with the Russians, like the Ingush, then it would've been worthy of being mentioned in the Chechen article, I agree. But as I already mentioned, that was not the case. Ushurma Okotskiy allied with the Russians in his fight against the Persians, he didn't sign a treaty to become part of Russia nor did he sign an oath to fight off other Chechens (including Ingush). He wasn't the first one to ally with the Russians either, it was Lars who was able to rule over the Darial pass with the help of Russia in the 1500s. While I don't claim he was an Ingush, it's usually Ingush that claim he was an Ingush. Greetings! --Reiner Gavriel (talk) 17:35, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
It is well known that the Ghalghai mountain clans (loamaroy) held themselves independently, and were more hostile towards the Russian Empire, as was stated by Moritz Engelhardt in 1811. This is also proven in the memoirs of Baron Rozen and F. Tornau. Like I said, it is very unethical to generalize the Ingush as traitors, since there were also traitors, that existed among Chechens, and every single nation in the Caucasus. Since you mentioned Utsig, then you are well aware of Saadulla, who fought for Evdokimov in 1858 along with 2000 Chechens, and made attacks on the villages of near rivers Assa and Fortanga. Since when is it okay to portray people badly in a Wikipedia article? This is not a place for propaganda. What you are doing is creating a bad image, for your own propagandic means and desires. Thus, creating a hostile article, you are not editing in good faith. Sun xov x'o mal va, ma yazde iz xamazh, ma de iz fitna ukhaz. Like Goddard2000 said, stick to your own pages, there is no need for this propaganda here. --Akylas7 (talk) 18:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- ^ Яковлев, Николай Феофанович. Ингуши.
- ^ Кодзоев, Н. Д. Российские и иностранные исследователи. и путешественники XVI—XIX вв. об Ингушетии и ингушах.
- ^ «Caucasian Highlander». Prague, 1924.
- ^ B.A. Alborov «Ingush Ghalierdi». Vol 1, 1979.
- ^ Johann Anton Güldenstädt. «Travels through Russia and the Caucasus Mountains». Vol. 1, 1787
- ^ Акты Кавк. Археогр. Комиссии. Т. IV . Тифлис. 1870 г., док. 1382. стр. 899—901.
- ^ John le Carré. «Our Game»
- ^ Johann Anton Güldenstädt. «Travels through Russia and the Caucasus Mountains». Vol. 1, 1787.
- ^ Baron F.F. Tornau. «Memoires Of A Caucasian Officer» (1832-1844)