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**** That's actually the crux of this issue, Tim. You think that "the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box", so no composer article could possibly be improved by an infobox. I don't accept that any editor - even one as eminent as yourself - can pre-judge the suitability of every article for an infobox and I'll continue to oppose your attempts to straight-jacket every one of these articles into the form that you have decided they should have. The [[Beethoven]] article has an infobox with eight key facts (at least two of which are not mentioned in the lead), along with a link to his works and a specimen signature. Those don't explain why Beethoven is among the greatest of composers, but they do satisfy the need that someone might have to place Beethoven's life in time and location. Biographical infoboxes rarely explain ''why'' a subject is interesting, but do help with the 'when' and 'where' of their life, regardless of the topic area for which the subject is notable. If the infobox doesn't make a net improvement to the article, let's not have it; but let's have a reasoned discussion, rather than a diktat from those who think they know best. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 16:51, 7 August 2016 (UTC) |
**** That's actually the crux of this issue, Tim. You think that "the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box", so no composer article could possibly be improved by an infobox. I don't accept that any editor - even one as eminent as yourself - can pre-judge the suitability of every article for an infobox and I'll continue to oppose your attempts to straight-jacket every one of these articles into the form that you have decided they should have. The [[Beethoven]] article has an infobox with eight key facts (at least two of which are not mentioned in the lead), along with a link to his works and a specimen signature. Those don't explain why Beethoven is among the greatest of composers, but they do satisfy the need that someone might have to place Beethoven's life in time and location. Biographical infoboxes rarely explain ''why'' a subject is interesting, but do help with the 'when' and 'where' of their life, regardless of the topic area for which the subject is notable. If the infobox doesn't make a net improvement to the article, let's not have it; but let's have a reasoned discussion, rather than a diktat from those who think they know best. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 16:51, 7 August 2016 (UTC) |
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*****[http://www.infodocket.com/2013/04/05/who-reads-wikipedia-new-statistics-from-the-wikimedia-foundation/ Who Reads Wikipedia?]--[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 00:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC) |
*****[http://www.infodocket.com/2013/04/05/who-reads-wikipedia-new-statistics-from-the-wikimedia-foundation/ Who Reads Wikipedia?]--[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 00:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC) |
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****Tim, I agree that ''all'' the important facts can't be squeezed into an infobox. But from the POV of a reader who is in search of an individual, simple fact, e.g., "Where was Holst born?", it is certainly true that "the only fact that is important to me at the moment" could easily be placed in an infobox. Right now, to find Holst's birthplace, you have to search through 400 words first. So imagine that you ''don't'' actually care why Holst is awesome. Imagine that you really only want to know if he is a potential subject for the homework that your history-of-music teacher ordered on "Dead Composers from England". And imagine that you can't read English easily. From that POV, an infobox would be very helpful in meeting your needs. Or perhaps you're looking for a list of his compositions, which appears halfway through the article, and again in the navbox, which is invisible on mobile devices (=about half of our readers). Having that at the top would be handy for that reader.<br> More generally: are we at risk of imposing a single narrative on readers? Is there only one Correct Way™ to use an article? Are we starting to think that [[No true Scotsmen|All True Readers]] want to know the whole story, as explained in 9,000 carefully chosen words, and to design articles not only to support this rare person, but also to ignore and exclude the others? Perhaps we should spend more time thinking about our average reader, rather than our ideal one. This particular article gets about 400 views on an average day. Based upon research with mobile platform, many of those 400 readers never progress past the lead, and very few – maybe just one or two each day – read the whole thing. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 09:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC) |
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== ArbCom == |
== ArbCom == |
Revision as of 09:14, 8 August 2016
![]() | Gustav Holst is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 21, 2014. | ||||||||||||
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Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hidden comments
The problem with hidden comments along the lines of "Don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them" is that it has a chilling effect on editors who don't understand that Wikiprojects have no standing to demand that an infobox may not be added. The decision on having an infobox or not is a matter for consensus on each article, and that is policy. If there has already been a discussion on a particular article, and a consensus reached not to have an infobox, then it is helpful to have an html comment drawing the editor's attention to that (possibly archived) discussion, and I'd be very much in favour of maintaining such notes. That is, however, not the situation here, as I can find no previous discussion of an infobox on this article. It is not acceptable to have a note which effectively prevents any consensus from being discussed, as if the matter were already settled by fiat of a single editor or Wikiproject. We build this encyclopedia by allowing people to edit, not forbidding it for no good reason. --RexxS (talk) 19:10, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oh dear rex, a bit of overkill on the hyperbole there! "Chilling"? "Fiat"? "Forbidding"? A note that "prevents any consensus from being discussed"? Untrue, of course: it does not prevent anything of the sort, and the talk page is still open and accessible to all who wish to discuss things. What the note does do, is to alert others that the addition may be contentious on this article; it is, thus, an attempt to avoid edit warring. – SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
First we were told that failure to have a hidden comment made it hard for editors to know not to add an infobox. Now you say that the hidden comment has a "chilling effect." The fact is that you just want to have a pile of code at the top of every article containing redundant infobox information, even in these arts biographies, usually riddled with errors and always emphasizing unimportant factoids at the expense key information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Should the hidden html comment, <!-- please do not add an infobox: see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical infoboxes]]-->
be removed from this article? RexxS (talk) 20:08, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Help:Hidden text gives examples of where hidden text is appropriate, and where it is not. One of the examples of inappropriate use is: *Telling others not to perform certain edits to a page, unless there is an existing policy against that edit.
- When it is a mere consensus that a certain edit should not be performed, the hidden text should be worded more softly to suggest to the editor to consult the talk page (or archive page if appropriate) for the current consensus prior to making the edit. Since consensus can change, it is inappropriate to use hidden text to prohibit making a certain edit merely because it would violate an existing consensus.
The policy relating to the use of infoboxes is at WP:INFOBOXUSE:
The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
In the case of this article, there is no previous discussion about infoboxes and no existing consensus. --RexxS (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Support removal
- Support The hidden comment here clearly breaches our guidelines on its use. It is nothing more than a pre-emptive measure to put editors off adding an infobox to the article, despite the absence of any previous debate. --RexxS (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal. There is no good to reason to treat the addition of an infobox differently from other edits: all can be reverted and discussed if it seems necessary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal: There was a clear directive from ArbCom that the "local consensus" of a wikiproject on infoboxes is not applicable, and that each article is to be considered on a case by case basis. This hidden comment, in fact, is a violation of the sprit of the ArbCom decision, though I don't think the decision specifically addressed this hidden comment issue. FWIW, it's also instruction creep. Montanabw(talk) 03:44, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal because it's inappropriate. However, I'd support a /FAQ at the top of the talk page that says (if true) that editors here have discussed it and decided against an infobox, with a suitable link to WP:Consensus can change. (NB that "editors here" does not mean "members of a WikiProject having a discussion elsewhere in an effort to make blanket rules for all articles that interest them".) WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal noting that the rule is that consensus on any individual page is sufficient for inclusion or exclusion on that page, and no project may mandate inclusion or forbid exclusion by a consensus found only on a talk page of such a project. That said, I would suggest that a positive consensus for inclusion of an infobox for this page would make sense as a requirement before any infobox here is added. Collect (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Per Arbcom and WP:CONLOCAL. It's a pretty clear case of overreach. --Izno (talk) 20:10, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Per RexxS & Izno. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:43, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal - our guideline is clear on this matter WP:ADVICEPAGE...oppose votes seem to lack any policy base for a position. That said a link to a discussion on this talk page would be fine...but not to a random project essay that clearly lacks community support.. -- Moxy (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support removal - for all the reasons stated above. As a reader, I find value in infoboxes and find such a hidden comment an unneccessary distraction. This RfC is a good example. We now have to devote time to discussing the obvious one-sided use of the hidden comment instead of focusing our attention on improving the encyclopedia for the benefit of its readers. Atsme📞📧 19:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- As the comment is hidden, I'm honestly unsure how it is "a distraction". I'm not challenging your support for the removal of the comment, but I just wonder if you could clarify just how the comment is a distraction to our readers? – SchroCat (talk) 19:23, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi, SchroCat - I'll begin by saying I did not say "the comment is a distraction to our readers" - that was what you gleaned from my comment for whatever reason. I find it curious that perceptions can be so different and often wonder how on earth that happens. Hopefully your response will help me in the future with regards to making my comments unambiguous. My exact statement was that I "find such a hidden comment an unneccessary distraction"' which I followed with "This RfC is a good example." How did you equate that into it being a distraction for our readers? Atsme📞📧 20:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Your semantic games aside, I'm still perplexed how a hidden common is a distraction. The RfC is also hardly a distraction: no-one is being forced to read or comment on the thread. Could you explain how the hidden common is a distraction? – SchroCat (talk) 21:05, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Semantic games?" If only that were the case but unfortunately I don't have time to play games. My comments were sincere so let's get back to focusing on content. I support what the OP stated in his reason for removal, and feel that he presented a well-drafted argument for removal. Warning tags are placed on BLPs and various other topics where there may be DS or PP because they actually do create situations where editors need to be aware (or risk being blocked). This is not one of those instances. It reminds me of subject headlines in some of the spam email I've received, like Please contact the IRS regarding your intention to create a Sect 501 (c)(3).
Editing WP articles is a daunting enough task without adding "do not add" requests which has a tendency to be distracting. Atsme📞📧 21:48, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- I really don't want to continue this, but I'm still perplexed how the text is, somehow, "a distraction"? I know your comments were sincere and made in all good faith, but I am just trying to understand how a hidden comment can be thought of as a distraction. Can you explain, without comparing to unconnected things like spam email? Did you mean to say "distraction on", or did you mean something else? – SchroCat (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am more than happy to help clarify, SchroCat, and will mix in a hypothetical situation to demonstrate. As an occasional WikiGnome who focuses on ledes, when I see !<----please do not....----> at the top of the edit page I will take the time to investigate. When I first arrived here, I checked out the hidden comment and followed the links before I made my decision to support removal. I would have done the same thing had I arrived at the article to edit so it created a *(distraction)* by taking me away from editing. When I arrived at the project page I did a speed read, and landed at the 2nd link *(2nd distraction)* to discover there was no policy prohibiting the addition of a biographical infobox. Curious, so why the hidden comment? Could it be a case of WP:OWN? *shrug* I like infoboxes, and consider them helpful so now we're at the *(3rd distraction)*. In an effort to avoid disruption, I probably would not have added an infobox and chances are, would have forgotten the edits I was there to make in the first place. But hey, if this RfC ends in your favor, I would consider adding !<---please do not make any edits to this article without proposing them on the TP first---> 😉 Atsme📞📧 02:08, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Semantic games?" If only that were the case but unfortunately I don't have time to play games. My comments were sincere so let's get back to focusing on content. I support what the OP stated in his reason for removal, and feel that he presented a well-drafted argument for removal. Warning tags are placed on BLPs and various other topics where there may be DS or PP because they actually do create situations where editors need to be aware (or risk being blocked). This is not one of those instances. It reminds me of subject headlines in some of the spam email I've received, like Please contact the IRS regarding your intention to create a Sect 501 (c)(3).
- Support removal per WP:FAITACCOMPLI, WP:DRAMA, WP:NOT#SOAPBOX, WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND, and the aforementioned CONLOCAL and ADVICEPAGE: There is no consensus discussion on record about whether to have an infobox at this article, so the "warning" HTML comment is jumping the gun; it's inappropriate claim-staking by the anti-infobox contingent. The reason to remove it is that retaining it would be a signal to this faction that they can insert this message in every single article that does not presently have an infobox. Those who oppose infoboxes need to ask themselves if they would be okay with the pro-infobox camp going to all articles without infoboxes and adding
<-- please add an infobox: see WP:INFOBOXUSE -->
. Exact same thing (and I would oppose that as well). WP is not about sailing to new lands and planting flags. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Oppose removal
- No. An attempt to avoid edit wars and the dramah that follows is to be welcomed. – SchroCat (talk) 20:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- No - per SchroCat. Too much time is wasted talking about the same things over and over again. A factual note, such as this, saves all the ensued drama which would, inevitably, disrupt the article. CassiantoTalk 20:18, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal – per Jerome Kohl and Laser brain. Further: the references to Help:Hidden text are misguided; that's a Help page, not a guideline. The guideline at MOS:DONTHIDE, or more pointedly at MOS:COMMENT, says nothing of the sort. In fact, it says the opposite. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal - We had a case only the other day where a well-meaning editor added an info-box to a Featured Article at which there was a consensus against a box. The mistake was quickly corrected, but a message like this (with amended wording if wanted) would have saved that editor embarrassment and wasted effort. Tim riley talk 06:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal - tweak the language per below, if there has never been an infobox in this article, then there is already an existing consensus not to have one, if an editor wants to add one, then the onus is on them to establish a consensus for inclusion.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal – If the wording needs to be adjusted, that's just fine, but I have seen too many cases where an editorcomes across a composer article, notices it hasn't got an infobox, puts one in, has it reverted, and then whines "nobody told me there was a problem, and I've wasted a lot of time an effort on this." It is a simple fair warning to the unwary, as long as it isn't worded to sound like a policy or guideline.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:14, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal — If consensus on this article is to not use an infobox — there must be some way to communicate this to those who would otherwise spam-add infoboxes to everything. Most of the time a lack of infobox is not a conscious decision — but based upon a lack of things to put in the infobox. Here is a deliberate decision, this reflects consensus on the page and is independent of whether policies forbid certain edits — consensus does. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- @CFCF: But there is no consensus on this article not use an infobox, and certainly nothing yet that can be communicated to those who might add an infobox. If there is "a deliberate decision" here, as you seem to think, please supply a link to that decision. Even on an article where there is consensus, our guideline at Help:Hidden text refutes your conclusion: "Since consensus can change, it is inappropriate to use hidden text to prohibit making a certain edit merely because it would violate an existing consensus.". --RexxS (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal – Internal comments like this do preempt good faith editors from wasting their available editing time. This alone is worth the price of admission. By normal editing, the comment will be vetted for clarity and policy compliance; this is proper and should remain in continuing practice.--John Cline (talk) 13:07, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose removal Hidden comments work reasonably well; I don't think many drive-by editors check an article talk page before making whatever edit they intend and these comments at least give them an indication to check first. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:31, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Sagaciousphil: Nobody would disagree with asking drive-by editors to check an article talk page if there were a previous discussion to check. But in this article, there is none. How does your reasoning fit with that? --RexxS (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- There's a discussion to check now (pity the poor innocent drive-by editor) and no consensus for adding a box. Tim riley talk 18:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- The editors who expanded the article and brought it to the level of quality it presently shows appear to have made a considered decision not to include an info box as the HTML comment was added on the day the work began. It has since been peer reviewed and successfully undergone an FAC. The hidden comment simply reflects the consensus of the main editors and reviewers that an IB is not thought pertinent on this article. To check beforehand also shows at least a modicum of respect towards the hardworking editors who gave their time and effort to provide 'readers' with an excellent quality article. SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:46, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- So they forbade an infobox even before starting work on the article. "
Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
" Where is that "discussion and consensus"? The "main editors" of this article have no more right to prohibit other editors from adding an infobox than they have to prohibit any edit that does not breach policy. Checking for prior discussion is a good thing; but attempts by the "main editors" to enforce a preemptive ban without any prior discussion shows a lack of respect towards hardworking editors like Graham11 who gives his time and effort to keep articles compliant with our policies and guidelines. --RexxS (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2016 (UTC)- Well you see, Rexx, before the Wikipedia authorities' ruling there was among involved editors a quiet consensus – now ruled ultra vires – that we just didn't add I-Bs for composer Life and Works articles. I can't quite recall your contributions to any of the articles, but never mind, as now, courtesy of the massed IB troops, we have a detailed discussion that confirms that there still is no consensus to add a box. Tim riley talk 20:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, Tim, I was already aware that a small clique had appointed themselves the arbiters of what was best for the readers of these articles. You'll have to excuse me, but I must have missed your edict that only editors who have previously contributed to one of your articles should be entitled to edit, or even have an opinion on them. I'm afraid the discussion below shows no consensus to exclude an infobox, either. Nevertheless, when your hidden comment prohibiting editing gets removed from this article, I'll be happy to contribute a policy-compliant notice requesting editors who are considering adding an infobox to check that discussion first. I'll even explain to you how to write one, or you can copy the example I made earlier at William Walton --RexxS (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Well you see, Rexx, before the Wikipedia authorities' ruling there was among involved editors a quiet consensus – now ruled ultra vires – that we just didn't add I-Bs for composer Life and Works articles. I can't quite recall your contributions to any of the articles, but never mind, as now, courtesy of the massed IB troops, we have a detailed discussion that confirms that there still is no consensus to add a box. Tim riley talk 20:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- So they forbade an infobox even before starting work on the article. "
- @Sagaciousphil: Nobody would disagree with asking drive-by editors to check an article talk page if there were a previous discussion to check. But in this article, there is none. How does your reasoning fit with that? --RexxS (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
And the attempt to alter that previous "quiet consensus" -- by a classical music editor -- got so nasty so fast that it was what gave rise to the ArbCom case. Montanabw(talk) 23:42, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Is "consensus to exclude an infobox" required? That strikes me as a novel interpretation of WP:DISCUSS and WP:BRD. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Discussion
Who cares? Its an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored. Anyone who actually wants to put in an infobox will do so. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:41, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- I care because I believe it can dissuade a new editor who isn't familiar with the policy from adding an infobox, even if they felt it would improve the article. It lends a false authority to the WikiProject, contrary to WP:CONLOCAL. --RexxS (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- I think a third option, rewording the comment, should be available.--John Cline (talk) 20:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Where there has been prior discussion, then I maintain that a comment pointing to it is helpful, for example, I made this edit to William Walton. But where no discussion about an infobox has ever taken place on the article talkpage, I don't believe there can be any rewording that helps the potential editor. --RexxS (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Of course there can: it's not beyond the capacity of a sentient being to come up with an alternative. You just don't want anything there. – SchroCat (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I don't see why not. WP:HIDDEN is perfectly clear on how this should be done: soften the wording to make it clear that this is no prohibiting policy, but requesting the courtesy of discussing it first. I have WP:BOLDly done this in the present case, as well as in half a dozen cases I encountered just before getting to this one, which is the first where I found any discussion at all.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- WP:HIDDEN is indeed perfectly clear: "When it is a mere consensus that a certain edit should not be performed, the hidden text should be worded more softly to suggest to the editor to consult the talk page (or archive page if appropriate) for the current consensus prior to making the edit" (my emphasis). It does not say "Where there is no existing consensus, the hidden text should require the editor to seek consensus on the talk page before making an edit." We'd never have an encyclopedia if everybody had to get permission to edit beforehand. There's no existing consensus here and no justification for requiring editors to seek one before editing. See WP:BRD. --RexxS (talk) 22:33, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I don't see why not. WP:HIDDEN is perfectly clear on how this should be done: soften the wording to make it clear that this is no prohibiting policy, but requesting the courtesy of discussing it first. I have WP:BOLDly done this in the present case, as well as in half a dozen cases I encountered just before getting to this one, which is the first where I found any discussion at all.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Of course there can: it's not beyond the capacity of a sentient being to come up with an alternative. You just don't want anything there. – SchroCat (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- Where there has been prior discussion, then I maintain that a comment pointing to it is helpful, for example, I made this edit to William Walton. But where no discussion about an infobox has ever taken place on the article talkpage, I don't believe there can be any rewording that helps the potential editor. --RexxS (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Point of order, but this hidden comment removal occurred on several pages and now the issue is being litigated across multiple talk pages. We should centralize the discussion somewhere so people can comment in one place. That being said, these types of notices are quite useful to content editors who spend their time building and maintaining pages. I've seen them on plenty of music articles advising people not to add/remove genres, on the Elvis article instructing people not to keep adding infobox fields that don't have consensus, etc. This type of disruption almost always occurs in infoboxes because every know-all wants to roll by and add tidbits of information whether it's sourced and in the article or not. So we save ourselves a bit of time by saying "Look here before you do this." I fail to see the problem. --Laser brain (talk) 21:16, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Looking closer at the hidden notice: "please do not add an infobox: see Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical infoboxes": A reader of the hidden notice can't follow the link, only sees a label with the appearance of authority. A reader who takes the time to copy the link location arrives at the top of the project page because the section header "Biographical infoboxes" doesn't exist. A reader who still doesn't give up but searches for the term "infobox" finds a piped "here" and gets to a section of the project guidelines. What will such a reader think? - Can we agree that this confusing wording should not be kept?Finding a new wording would take time, - couldn't we just try to do without the hidden notice? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- new day: Francis helped to a better link, so I could strike most of the above. The question is still the same: couldn't we just try to do without the hidden notice? I suggest to drop it for some, and leave it for others, as a test. - DYK that I will have another DYK about peace today? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:18, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe it is a browser issue, but when I look at the message it reads somewhat differently: "please do not add an infobox without first obtaining consensus on the article Talk page: see Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes". I agree that linking syntax in hidden text is useless, and if the section header no longer exists, then it should be updated. Why throw out the baby with the bathwater? Is it simply because we are too lazy to update the information?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:39, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- PS: I just checked the link, and apparently the section header has just been restored, because I was not redirected to the top of the page.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:42, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That's not what the notice says now. You may have missed the edit an hour and a half ago; it now reads:
"please do not add an infobox without first obtaining consensus on the article Talk page: see Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes"
.
- As for
"Finding a new wording would take time, - couldn't we just try to do without the hidden notice?"
I am not sure what the rush is. The text from before the most recent edit has been there for some time, so I don't know why we need to suddenly rush to delete it today (along with the same deletion on several other pages – which verges on the disruptive IMO). Any open-minded and flexible approach should be able to come up with alternative wording if the consensus is that a replace,went is needed. – SchroCat (talk) 22:43, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That's not what the notice says now. You may have missed the edit an hour and a half ago; it now reads:
Just remove the damn things where they are a generic hidden notice, and no new wording. Further "please do not add an infobox" is contrary to what ArbCom flat-out ordered us all to do -- fight it out article by article by article. (Which none of us particularly like--that much, at least probably unites the pro- and anti- infobox factions) To the extent that individual articles, post-ArbCom, have endured an infobox war, a consensus was, however grudgingly, granted, and both sides have beaten the issue to a standstill, perhaps in those limited cases a hidden note with the permalink to the "consensus" could be included with a caution to the editor that they should consult before adding or removing. Montanabw(talk) 03:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- So, you haven't read "the damn thing", either. It presently asks to do exactly what you demand: fight it out article by article. Now, would you like to start over again, or just withdraw your comment?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- ArbCom spoke, and until they reinstate WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, this is all we have, article by article. Not sure what you mean by "haven't read," I've read this whole section...the bottom line is that the WP Classical music projects have exploded repeatedly over this issue, it will never be resolved, I've yet to see a debate that doesn't devolve down to an ILIKEIT/IDONTLIKEIT discussion, and a lot of people who would normally get along rather well are at loggerheads and go straight for the jugular whenever the topic arises. Someday, we will have a universal infobox policy and these ridiculous debates will end, but I suspect it will be years from now. Montanabw(talk) 08:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I amicably disagree. The classical music project hasn't exploded, nor the composers project. In this whole discussion, we need to read only one comment, the first one in this section: "Its an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored." Thank you, Only in death does duty end, for nailing it. We are discussing if an invalid should be there or not. I say "not" to keep it simple, but if it's there, also no harm. All this talk about dramah and edit war seems a bit exaggerated. When was the last time that a newbie added an infobox which was reverted? When was the last edit war? - Thank you, Tim, for being so considerate of the other user's time ;) - How about the experiment to leave half of the composers changed without the notice, the others with it, and observe? My prediction is that it makes no difference, so could be safely omitted. - People die, and we still talk about a hidden notice, really? I am going to write a Requiem article now, thinking of Kevin. (With an infobox, naturally.) Only in death does duty end. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Gerda, dearest, it wasn't a music article I referred to, but I am not so naive as to flag up another article where the Info-box Panzers can immediately roll. Remind us about Kevin and what he has to do with this discussion? Tim riley talk 14:04, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- There are no Info-box Panzers, unless you can provide a reference for their existence. Why are you so afraid? -
Kevin. (I thought everybody knew that.)--Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 31 July 2016 (UTC)- I should not have answered the question. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, come off it, Gerda! Pro-IB bullies banned score= ? No names, no pack-drill. Never ran across this Kevin, but I see from your link that he was a sacked admin. What's he got to do with this current discussion? Tim riley talk 14:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Tim riley: I believe Gerda is referencing the fact that Kevin Gorman appears to be dead and hence she will think of him while she writes a Requiem article. --Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Laser brain, For what it's worth, although I had heard the news about KG, I'm also confused about what he (or GA's requiem) have to do with the discussion here. (Not that I'm after any explanation - there is no connection). - SchroCat (talk) 15:18, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Requiescat. We are all God's creatures, and to be prayed for by anyone who can pray (which I know from private exchanges includes both Gerda and me). Nonetheless I am unsure why the poor soul is being dragged in here unless it's to camouflage the tanks, which would be rather inappropriate in my view. Tim riley talk 15:22, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Gerda, your intention to drag in a recently deceased editor to detract away from the matter in hand is bloody disgusting. Please stick to the matter in hand. CassiantoTalk 18:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Repeating from above: we need to read only one comment, the first one in this section: "Its an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored." Please leave me alone with assumptions about my intentions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- If you want your intentions to be left alone, then stop making references to the deceased. They don't care, they can't answer, they are dead. It's too morbid for comfort to keep hearing you turn helpful discussions into an obituary and people are sick of hearing it. Secondly, you indicate that you agree with Only in death - a coincidence, I hope - that "Its[sic] an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored", so why have you supported a removal? Surely, you should be neutral on the matter? CassiantoTalk 06:50, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am not neutral to keeping an invalid notice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Then I find your posts deliberately confusing. CassiantoTalk 13:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Surely all invalid notices should be removed? "This article has no refs–oops, except for those 16, I guess that this unref notice is invalid" usually militates in favor of removal, not an indifference towards the presence of a known-to-be-invalid notice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 10:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Then I find your posts deliberately confusing. CassiantoTalk 13:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am not neutral to keeping an invalid notice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- If you want your intentions to be left alone, then stop making references to the deceased. They don't care, they can't answer, they are dead. It's too morbid for comfort to keep hearing you turn helpful discussions into an obituary and people are sick of hearing it. Secondly, you indicate that you agree with Only in death - a coincidence, I hope - that "Its[sic] an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored", so why have you supported a removal? Surely, you should be neutral on the matter? CassiantoTalk 06:50, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Repeating from above: we need to read only one comment, the first one in this section: "Its an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored." Please leave me alone with assumptions about my intentions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Gerda, your intention to drag in a recently deceased editor to detract away from the matter in hand is bloody disgusting. Please stick to the matter in hand. CassiantoTalk 18:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Requiescat. We are all God's creatures, and to be prayed for by anyone who can pray (which I know from private exchanges includes both Gerda and me). Nonetheless I am unsure why the poor soul is being dragged in here unless it's to camouflage the tanks, which would be rather inappropriate in my view. Tim riley talk 15:22, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Laser brain, For what it's worth, although I had heard the news about KG, I'm also confused about what he (or GA's requiem) have to do with the discussion here. (Not that I'm after any explanation - there is no connection). - SchroCat (talk) 15:18, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Tim riley: I believe Gerda is referencing the fact that Kevin Gorman appears to be dead and hence she will think of him while she writes a Requiem article. --Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- There are no Info-box Panzers, unless you can provide a reference for their existence. Why are you so afraid? -
- Gerda, dearest, it wasn't a music article I referred to, but I am not so naive as to flag up another article where the Info-box Panzers can immediately roll. Remind us about Kevin and what he has to do with this discussion? Tim riley talk 14:04, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I amicably disagree. The classical music project hasn't exploded, nor the composers project. In this whole discussion, we need to read only one comment, the first one in this section: "Its an invalid notice anyway and can be safely ignored." Thank you, Only in death does duty end, for nailing it. We are discussing if an invalid should be there or not. I say "not" to keep it simple, but if it's there, also no harm. All this talk about dramah and edit war seems a bit exaggerated. When was the last time that a newbie added an infobox which was reverted? When was the last edit war? - Thank you, Tim, for being so considerate of the other user's time ;) - How about the experiment to leave half of the composers changed without the notice, the others with it, and observe? My prediction is that it makes no difference, so could be safely omitted. - People die, and we still talk about a hidden notice, really? I am going to write a Requiem article now, thinking of Kevin. (With an infobox, naturally.) Only in death does duty end. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- ArbCom spoke, and until they reinstate WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, this is all we have, article by article. Not sure what you mean by "haven't read," I've read this whole section...the bottom line is that the WP Classical music projects have exploded repeatedly over this issue, it will never be resolved, I've yet to see a debate that doesn't devolve down to an ILIKEIT/IDONTLIKEIT discussion, and a lot of people who would normally get along rather well are at loggerheads and go straight for the jugular whenever the topic arises. Someday, we will have a universal infobox policy and these ridiculous debates will end, but I suspect it will be years from now. Montanabw(talk) 08:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- It is a misnomer to say that this page has "no existing consensus" even if "there is no previous discussion". In my opinion, that fallacy is the impetus of this debate's failing! No page on Wikipedia exists without the collaborative assent of others; itself, the foremost act of consensus building across the project. In the absence of local discussion, editing discretion is always subject to the accepted best practices achieved by some earlier consensus.
- In particular, it is unequivocally clear that the decision to include an infobox, or not, is a style preference. As such, deference is generally given to the earliest edit to establish the preference. In a dispute without factors of mitigation, (like policy or an overriding consensus), the status quo should be, and most often is, upheld. The hidden comment should merely reflect the established preference, without prejudice, unless and until it is superseded itself.
- Therefore: depending on the prevailing style, at times the hidden comment could say, in effect:
Whereas: at times, it could perhaps say:Consensus for this article favors the inclusion of an infobox. It should not be removed unless the preference is superseded by competent means like an office action or a reversing consensus on the talk page.
Consensus for this article favors the omission of an infobox. One should not be added unless the preference is superseded by competent means like an office action or a reversing consensus on the talk page.
- Thank you, and best regards.--John Cline (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- And thank you, John! A gracious and impartial suggestion that could well form a basis for a protocol we could all sign up to. Tim riley talk 13:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry John, but the decision on including an infobox is a matter of content, not style, and ArbCom made that clear in its decision at WP:ARBINFOBOX (a good example is "
infoboxes combine elements of content and style, but the decision whether to have them or not is presumably a content issue, not a style issue
" at WT:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes. The fallacy in your argument is that any part of the content of an article may be absent at some point in its development - for example this article had no "Legacy" section for at least six years - but that does not imply that consensus is against inclusion of such content. Similarly, the absence of an infobox does not imply any consensus not to have one. In fact the maxim is "silence is consent" and any editor ought to be free to add content, including an infobox, to any article if they believe it improves the article. If they are reverted, they should expect a reason founded in policy from the reverting editor. That is how we should all be editing and these hidden comments fundamentally undermine that process and encourage OWNership. - The comments you propose breach the guidance at WP:HIDDEN. For articles where a consensus has been reached in accordance with policy (see WP:INFOBOXUSE: "Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.") it is not appropriate to state "One should not be added"; any such comment should do no more than draw the editor's attention to the debate where the existing consensus for the article was established. For articles where no prior debate has taken place, no restriction should be placed on an editor's ability to improve the content. --RexxS (talk) 16:51, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- "Presumably" does give a little leeway (and it's not the first time Arbcom have possibly erred). I have seen others refute the "content" argument, stating it is a formatting question. – SchroCat (talk) 17:11, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- All this Wikilawyering by editors who haven't hitherto contributed to the article doesn't address the commonsense point that if an info-box is agreed to be otiose in a featured article on composer X there is a 99.99% chance that the same considerations will apply to composers Y, Z et al. If a box is added to any it will be quickly removed, I should think, and though the adder can of course if he /she wishes make his/her pitch to seek a consensus for its restoration it seems to me a sad waste of his/her time when he/she is unlikely to succeed and could be using his/her time to more useful effect. That's what the hidden pointer is there for. Tim riley talk 20:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it would be far more convenient, Tim, if you could somehow arrange that only the OWNers of an article get to have a say in its content. That's not gonna happen. Find me a citation for that "99.99% chance" because I'm calling bullshit on it. I'm surprised that someone like yourself doesn't understand that similar articles can be very different in their suitability for having an infobox. You only have to look at Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 6 #Infobox and Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 13, for example, to see reasonable debate leading to opposite outcomes - both discussions being precipitated by an unaffiliated editor who had no prior edits to the article. Please let the normal processes of bold editing and sensible discussion take their course; these articles don't exist for the convenience of their editors, but for the benefit of their readers. --RexxS (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Why do you always dive for the gutter with an unfounded and stupid accusation of OWNership rex? It's tediously predictable in every IB discussion. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean it's ownership: it's a difference of opinion, not proof,of ownership. I may as well accuse you of attempting OWNership on the top right-hand corner of all articles for the sense you make with it. – SchroCat (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The argument was taken to the gutter by "
All this Wikilawyering by editors who haven't hitherto contributed to the article
". Anyone who thinks that having contributed to an article is a prerequisite to participation in a debate is expressing OWNership behaviour, and they need to be called on it. Do you think that only editors who are part of the "core group" should have the ability to make decisions on an article's content? --RexxS (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The argument was taken to the gutter by "
- Why do you always dive for the gutter with an unfounded and stupid accusation of OWNership rex? It's tediously predictable in every IB discussion. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean it's ownership: it's a difference of opinion, not proof,of ownership. I may as well accuse you of attempting OWNership on the top right-hand corner of all articles for the sense you make with it. – SchroCat (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The omission of an infobox at an article's creation does not establish a preference. Inclusion of a hidden comment or an edit summary expressing a preference does, and, in the absence of overriding mitigation, it should be respected. The examples I offered above are for illustration only; to show flexability in use of hidden comments. They are not proposed in any way. The decision to include a "Legacy" section is not shown as an editing preference anywhere on Wikipedia. Decisions regarding the positive use of an infobox v. its desirous omission as well as AD v. CE, mm/dd/yy v. dd/mm/yy, and "References" v. "Citations" v. "Footnotes", to the positive use of the serial comma, as I have done here, are all preferences that are given deference and they should be respected along with all of the others.
- In concluding my regards, I leave this observation: the saddest component of this embarrassing dispute is that it is manufactured by the most highly esteemed, (for experience, knowledge, and capability), of our editing community. You guys, most certainly, already knew of everything I spoke, and also know whatever I could devise about Wikipedia and her best editing practices; yet I am here – sucked in to the time-sink this debate has become, (over years). I've done well in avoiding it until now. I mark it a fools errand and the time spent in its service, wasted – I could have already mowed my lawn which I will now accomplish in late fashion. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- So John, you think that it's OK for an editor to "mark their territory" by inserting a comment forbidding others to add an infobox? It clearly puts your comments into context. --RexxS (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- I hope you were speaking in jest, <redacted>.--John Cline (talk) 05:23, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm a well-known teetotaler, John Cline, so your aspersions are unfounded. I find your amateur attempts at psychiatry offensive, but I'll give you a chance to redact them before I take up your behaviour at ANI. --RexxS (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't believe an ANI thread is warranted by my comment, and my decision to redact it is not motivated by your threat to open a thread there. It is sufficient that it was offensive to you that I apologize, and that it detracts from this discussion that I redact it from view.--John Cline (talk) 20:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm a well-known teetotaler, John Cline, so your aspersions are unfounded. I find your amateur attempts at psychiatry offensive, but I'll give you a chance to redact them before I take up your behaviour at ANI. --RexxS (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- I hope you were speaking in jest, <redacted>.--John Cline (talk) 05:23, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it would be far more convenient, Tim, if you could somehow arrange that only the OWNers of an article get to have a say in its content. That's not gonna happen. Find me a citation for that "99.99% chance" because I'm calling bullshit on it. I'm surprised that someone like yourself doesn't understand that similar articles can be very different in their suitability for having an infobox. You only have to look at Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 6 #Infobox and Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 13, for example, to see reasonable debate leading to opposite outcomes - both discussions being precipitated by an unaffiliated editor who had no prior edits to the article. Please let the normal processes of bold editing and sensible discussion take their course; these articles don't exist for the convenience of their editors, but for the benefit of their readers. --RexxS (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- All this Wikilawyering by editors who haven't hitherto contributed to the article doesn't address the commonsense point that if an info-box is agreed to be otiose in a featured article on composer X there is a 99.99% chance that the same considerations will apply to composers Y, Z et al. If a box is added to any it will be quickly removed, I should think, and though the adder can of course if he /she wishes make his/her pitch to seek a consensus for its restoration it seems to me a sad waste of his/her time when he/she is unlikely to succeed and could be using his/her time to more useful effect. That's what the hidden pointer is there for. Tim riley talk 20:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- "Presumably" does give a little leeway (and it's not the first time Arbcom have possibly erred). I have seen others refute the "content" argument, stating it is a formatting question. – SchroCat (talk) 17:11, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry John, but the decision on including an infobox is a matter of content, not style, and ArbCom made that clear in its decision at WP:ARBINFOBOX (a good example is "
- And thank you, John! A gracious and impartial suggestion that could well form a basis for a protocol we could all sign up to. Tim riley talk 13:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
IMHO, whoever it was in here somewhere suggested an FAQ here on the talk page that showed a link to the last debate and the consensus reached, that IS how they handle the pages with actual controversies, such as, for example Talk:Barack Obama. No need to clutter the edit box at all. Montanabw(talk) 22:50, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- I generally agree.--John Cline (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Infobox?
Gustav Holst | |
---|---|
![]() Holst, c. 1921 (photograph by Herbert Lambert) | |
Born | Gustavus Theodore von Holst 21 September 1874 |
Died | 25 May 1934 London | (aged 59)
Works | List of compositions |
In the discussion above, CFCF said "Here is a deliberate decision, this reflects consensus on the page". It is not, because no consensus was ever established, but can be now. This being a featured article with one principal editors Tim riley, I would no have dared to even suggest an infobox, hidden notice or not, just for respect ;) - Please keep to what the arbs requested: civility, and sticking to this particular infobox for this article, not infoboxes in general. I, as a reader, like to have the facts about birth and death in one place, and an easy access to his list of works. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:36, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oh FFS... No need to repeat the same key details as are in the lead. There is no metadata argument here as the festering cesspit of Wikidata as the factoids are already present there. – SchroCat (talk) 12:54, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Infoboxes exist to repeat key details, including those in the lede, in a convenient and accessible format. As such they do so by consent on the majority of Wikipedia articles, and in almost every article on which they are used. Even setting aside the fallacy in your objection on those grounds, the proposed infobox includes information not stated in the lede of this article. The machine-readable metadata emitted by the infobox - again, as is done by consent on the majority of Wikipedia articles - is available to in-broswer tools while their operator is viewing the article; the existence of Wikidata does not negate that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose -- Please move on, for god's sake! CassiantoTalk 13:17, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- No info box required when it is merely repeating the same facts already covered in the lead. Jack1956 (talk) 13:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- An easily refuted canard; see my comment, above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose infobox The article became a FA in May 2013 without one, so it seems pointless to be discussing why it suddenly needs to have one now. The hidden comment mentioned above has been there a long time and it has been "respected". Not seeing how respect=infobox. We hope (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Here's an editor looking for some respect on his/her choice of no infobox on Giulio Cesare. We hope (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- WP:CANVASS applies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The people running the FA process gave made clear that the presence or otherwise of an infobox is not a factor in awarding FA status. Therefore, the award of that status does not proscribe the subsequent addition of an infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Here's an editor looking for some respect on his/her choice of no infobox on Giulio Cesare. We hope (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Mentioning the people that run FAC is a straw man: it's the fact the article has gone through an open community-supported review process (actually two, when the PR process is taken into account). As the question of the IB was not raised in either of those processes, there is a strongly implied consensus that it is not needed. - SchroCat (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- No one is suggesting that the FA process precludes an infobox if the article had none previously. It's the timing which caused the comment-fine for 3+ years not to have one and now suddenly it's of vital importance. We hope (talk) 18:14, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The lack of mention of an infobox is not evidence of any consensus on its exclusion. The policy is "
Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
" The absence of a discussion is not now, and never has been, a discussion, no matter how much you'd like to delude yourself otherwise. --RexxS (talk) 17:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am not deluded rex, so take your ever-snide comments elsewhere. The lack of discussion on a point does not mean that there is no consensus, and the two open review processes did not feel that this article was somehow incomplete or lacking without the need of an aesthetically unpleasant and unpleasing box at the top. – SchroCat (talk) 18:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Off topic bear baiting
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- Support infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Dont care to vote ...but idiotboxes help the idiots. We should not assume all like only one way to absorb information. Its really to bad there is a small segment of editors that still dont understand why the quick-info-box is useful to some and that its a bad idea to only have one format.--Moxy (talk) 15:15, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- With the exception of the idiotbox metaphore, I am in certain agreement with Moxy who is concise and
spot onprimarily correct. I'll even reserve my own vote. I will say that to my observation, the spirit of Arbcom's ruling is not evident by the extraneous discussion being imposed on this page.--John Cline (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC) - Oppose infobox, per Cassianto and We hope, above. This whole overinflated discussion is pointless. Let's have done with it and move on.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: Gerda says: "This being a featured article with one principal editor Tim riley..." – not quite; I see I have 165 edits as against Tim's 74, and we were equal partners in the drive towards featured status. As Gerda will know, I have not objected in the past to infoboxes that give basic identifying information; my worry is the extent to which such boxes later become magnets for trivia. I don't believe it would be the end of the world if a box like that at the top of this thread were to be imposed, but nor do I see any great necessity to do it, other than to end this dreary farrago of argument and misrepresentation – if it would. Brianboulton (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Please excuse that I mentioned Tim only, - I should at least have said one of many (The tool was not available when I posted). Had I mentioned more names it would have been called canvassing. Thank you for your comment. Can the fact that Beethoven is without trivia for more than a year somehow lessen your worries? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support infobox. The example infobox shown above is just as aesthetically pleasing as the current image. It would make available at a glance several pieces of information not immediately apparent in the nearby lead: place of birth, place of death, age at death, as well as an immediate link to his compositions. That is a convenience for the reader and is in line with practice at the vast majority of articles on Wikipedia. Readers expect to find this sort of information in articles such as Holst. It also emits the following microformats: vcard, nickname, bday, birthplace, deathdate, deathplace - all of which are helpful to third-parties who wish to reuse our content on Holst. --RexxS (talk) 17:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose infobox. While sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader, or include ... irrelevant or inappropriate information". Here are some reasons why I disagree with including an infobox in this article: (1) The box emphasizes unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, such as "Death Place", in competition with the WP:LEAD section which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points about the article are already discussed in the Lead, or adequately discussed in the body of the article, the box is redundant. (3) It takes up valuable space at the top of the article and hampers the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, as updates are made to the articles but not reflected in the redundant info in the box, and they tend to draw more vandalism and fancruft than other parts of articles. (5) The infobox template creates a lot of code near the top of the edit screen that discourages new editors from editing the article. (6) It discourages readers from reading the article. (7) It distracts editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. See also WP:DISINFOBOX. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:32, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The lack of basic understanding of how people use the internet is a big problem with those trying to limit access to information....visualizations show that users often read Web pages in an F-shaped pattern ....- How readers use the internet . Also very odd to hold a position that benefits editors over readers. Want to keep readers or make them read your great articles...spoon feed them some basics and maybe just maybe they will read on.....no tibits of info here...on they go somewhere else to find it.--Moxy (talk)
- Ah yes, how stupid we all are in comparison to you. It's a crying shame that none of us with a flexible approach to IB use have any knowledge of the Internet, despite the generic articles you've posted. They miss the point on IBs unfortunately, but I doubt I could convince you otherwise. (And as to the nonsense that we are
"trying to limit access to information"
, that's just unfettered, gibbering bollocks: the information is all there (in the lead, obviously), and it's put in context, with background. "Limit access"? Thanks for the laugh on that one. – SchroCat (talk) 20:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC) - A flexible approach? Your advocating one-way of presenting information over different ways....in no world is one way a flexible approach. I understand you think that forcing readers to read your whole article is better...but if you had read the links above you would see that is not the best approach. Some of our readers dont have unlimited data nor do all have the comprehension skills to read an in context. Your doing our readers a disservice by forcing your limited POV on articles you come across. Very odd if you believe your POV on this has more weight then those at Goggle, Bing and other encyclopedias....but i guess it is possible they are all wrong in presenting data in many forms. We should tell them all that the research they do into this is wrong... because we have a few editor here that say other wise. ...this is what is laughable. Moxy (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- My "limited POV"? Good grief... and yes, I've read the articles before. I was unswayed by them know and they carry even less weight with me now. Oh goo, my opinion, simply for being different to yours, is now laughable. You really are becoming increasingly tendentious in your posts. As to Google and Bing... they are not encyclopaedias and have very different agendas to us. Britannica (as the closest model to ours) provides dates of birth and death only, and none of the other ephemera collected even in the example version here. – SchroCat (talk) 22:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- What we need is editors that have an understanding of how to present info to differ segments of the population. What is laughable is thinking one way is best over many ways as others have done. I understand you think that only one way of presenting data is best but dont you think its odd so many here and all over the net seem to chose different ways of presenting the same data? Why are we different and why should we change the format that has made us a leader on the net? -- Moxy (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- As I have had to ask you on several previous occasions, please do not tell me what I think: your misrepresentation here is as off target as it has been on every single previous occasion you have done it before. – SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes yes yes...more run around language......hard to have a debate when people think its all about them. You do good work here..its to bad your on the wrong side of a debate that is fundamental to our readers. I wish debating with you was easier but not all have this skill set (apparently I am one of those according to you.) In the future all i ask is you try to reply to the questioned asked or assuming its all about you. -- Moxy (talk) 00:31, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, no, no. It's not "run around language": in recent discussions I have had to ask you numerous times (10? 12?) not to misrepresent what I have said. It's a very, very poor way for you to communicate, and tendentious in the extreme. As to being on the "wrong side", the same could be said of you, as we are dealing with opinions in how to format a selection of factoids repeated elsewhere. I'm fairly sure I've had to explain this to you before as well, but I'm sure it won't be the last time. – SchroCat (talk) 07:06, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- Here we go again ...no reply worth anything. No clue why you think its about you when people make comments.-- Moxy (talk) 15:22, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- As you've been replying to my posts with comments directed at me, it's blindingly obvious to any sentient being you were engaging in dialogue with me. Thankfully, as you now appear not to be talking to me, I won't have to bother responding to your increasingly disconnected statements. - SchroCat (talk) 15:26, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes yes yes...more run around language......hard to have a debate when people think its all about them. You do good work here..its to bad your on the wrong side of a debate that is fundamental to our readers. I wish debating with you was easier but not all have this skill set (apparently I am one of those according to you.) In the future all i ask is you try to reply to the questioned asked or assuming its all about you. -- Moxy (talk) 00:31, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- As I have had to ask you on several previous occasions, please do not tell me what I think: your misrepresentation here is as off target as it has been on every single previous occasion you have done it before. – SchroCat (talk) 22:49, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- What we need is editors that have an understanding of how to present info to differ segments of the population. What is laughable is thinking one way is best over many ways as others have done. I understand you think that only one way of presenting data is best but dont you think its odd so many here and all over the net seem to chose different ways of presenting the same data? Why are we different and why should we change the format that has made us a leader on the net? -- Moxy (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- My "limited POV"? Good grief... and yes, I've read the articles before. I was unswayed by them know and they carry even less weight with me now. Oh goo, my opinion, simply for being different to yours, is now laughable. You really are becoming increasingly tendentious in your posts. As to Google and Bing... they are not encyclopaedias and have very different agendas to us. Britannica (as the closest model to ours) provides dates of birth and death only, and none of the other ephemera collected even in the example version here. – SchroCat (talk) 22:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Ah yes, how stupid we all are in comparison to you. It's a crying shame that none of us with a flexible approach to IB use have any knowledge of the Internet, despite the generic articles you've posted. They miss the point on IBs unfortunately, but I doubt I could convince you otherwise. (And as to the nonsense that we are
- Ssilvers, your collection is the perfect example of what not to do. The same collection appeared already for Jean Sibelius: please stick to this short box for this article, and don't be afraid that it would grow (see my comment to Brian above). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - per Ssilvers: waste of space and unhelpful to readers for this sort of article, though admirable elsewhere. Stick to the box-free form for this article. Tim riley talk 19:43, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - per Ssilvers, who has put the case for not including an IB most cogently. Alfietucker (talk) 20:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Those searching for information on the internet are "infoboxed" before they arrive at the WP article. At present the Gustav Holst article has no infobox on WP. a Bing search a Google search Both major search engines display an infobox at right with basic information, so before anyone even gets to WP, they have this information available to them, and if that's all they want, don't even need to show up at WP. We hope (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Perfect example of how useful the boxes are....so useful that others have adopted the format that has made Wikipedia a leader in disseminating information. as seen above both searchers are great with links to the kids etc. So people looking for this fast info will come here then just go back to the Google search because it has more info at a glance. looks like people here are going out of there way to make us loose readership? Dont like the way info is presented here ...fuckoff go somewhere else is this the message being promoted here.-- Moxy (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment (edit conflict) – I'll be darned! You're right, We hope! I've become so used to advertisements showing up in that space to the right that I automatically ignore whatever is there, on grounds that it is almost certainly useless. Just like an infobox.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Those searching for information on the internet are "infoboxed" before they arrive at the WP article. At present the Gustav Holst article has no infobox on WP. a Bing search a Google search Both major search engines display an infobox at right with basic information, so before anyone even gets to WP, they have this information available to them, and if that's all they want, don't even need to show up at WP. We hope (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment If people have already gotten the basics from a search engine infobox, they don't need to come to the article to get it. They come to the article for more than the basic information. In many cases, with close to 2 million stubs, this information is sorely lacking. "fuckoff go somewhere else" is certainly the message when a reader hopes to find more information at a WP article and finds a sentence or two with an infobox. We hope (talk) 20:06, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- I generally think it should be the article writer's decision on whether to include one. I certainly don't see that this would make much different, the information given in it is miniscule.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:58, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- WP articles don't have single writers, except in rare cases of obscure topics, and that's still covered by WP:MERCILESS. See also WP:OWN#Statements, example #3. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
back to Holst and his music please
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- Oppose Couldn't agree more with Ssilvers, their statement is spot on. Infoboxes don't help with organisation, I see no need to repeat key facts that are already mentioned in the lead. JAGUAR 17:39, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose as redundant and visually unappealing. Might as well WP:SNOW this. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:38, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
- I support adding an infobox because it would improve the article by making the vital facts about Holst's life more accessible for readers. I fail to see how it would oversimplify or mischaracterize anything. An infobox is complementary to, not competitive with, the lead section. --Albany NY (talk) 13:50, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Utterly delusional. CassiantoTalk 18:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- There's a lot of it about, especially among editors who have no history at all with this article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:20, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Utterly delusional. CassiantoTalk 18:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support adding an infobox — populated with relevant information. Infoboxes are useful for a number of reasons, giving a quick overview of the type of information that really doesn't need to repeated in the lede — and if we're afraid that readers will ignore the text in favor of the infobox then we can safely assume they will ignore both if we obscure the information. Infoboxes serve a good purpose and we can never assume that readers will be coming from google. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 20:15, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- What "relevant information" would that be, other than what is in the lead section? CassiantoTalk 20:18, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Family, place of death, inspiration, alma mater, major compositions — basically what normally is in these infoboxes, and it should definately include some repetition of what is in the lede. Arguing against an infobox because the information is in the lede is saying that the lede should be basically a list of facts — not normally considered good writing. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Quite a lot of pointless unconnected details mentioned there, including Family, place of death, inspiration, alma mater, major compositions. As to
"Arguing against an infobox because the information is in the lede is saying that the lede should be basically a list of facts"
, that straw man is too ridiculous to bother dealing with properly. – SchroCat (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2016 (UTC)- These are all highly relevant for an infobox — which gives a quick glance for example of which movement this composer was part of. It isn't a strawman in that it is entirely true — too often are articles written as lists of facts — infoboxes help by removing the need to repeat or cram all that information into the lede. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Are you saying that this article is "a list of facts"? If not, then your argument is indeed a straw man here. As to family, place of death and alma mater, these in no way 'give a quick glance for example of which movement this composer was part of', or at least not without a lot of additional explanation. – SchroCat (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- These are all relevant for specific purposes — place of death is very relevant for potential reuse, because it helps determine whether the copyright is in the public domain. Alma mater and movement are all simple to portray in the infobox when someone quickly needs to glance these things, not wishing to dive into the entire article to find out. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 09:58, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Are you saying that this article is "a list of facts"? If not, then your argument is indeed a straw man here. As to family, place of death and alma mater, these in no way 'give a quick glance for example of which movement this composer was part of', or at least not without a lot of additional explanation. – SchroCat (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- These are all highly relevant for an infobox — which gives a quick glance for example of which movement this composer was part of. It isn't a strawman in that it is entirely true — too often are articles written as lists of facts — infoboxes help by removing the need to repeat or cram all that information into the lede. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Quite a lot of pointless unconnected details mentioned there, including Family, place of death, inspiration, alma mater, major compositions. As to
- Family, place of death, inspiration, alma mater, major compositions — basically what normally is in these infoboxes, and it should definately include some repetition of what is in the lede. Arguing against an infobox because the information is in the lede is saying that the lede should be basically a list of facts — not normally considered good writing. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- What "relevant information" would that be, other than what is in the lead section? CassiantoTalk 20:18, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- We need the place of death in an IB because
"it helps determine whether the copyright is in the public domain"
? I'm afraid that shows a complete lack of knowledge of copyright law: the place of death of an individual has nothing to do with copyright. As to the rest, the lead contains all the relevant key information about an individual, and does so putting the information in context, and so anyone interested in Holst won't have to "dive into the entire article": it's all laid out for them in the top. - SchroCat (talk) 10:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- We need the place of death in an IB because
- Please add the places of birth of death to the lead. I had to dive rather low to find the latter. You will then be in conflict with the MoS, of course, where the mentioning of the places of birth and death is not recommended for the lead unless they are of significance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) x 3 There is nothing to "make true" Gerda. As I said:
"the lead contains all the relevant key information"
(emphasis added). That stands correct, unless we want to bloat out the lead with the superfluous. I see your addition has already accepted that the place of death is not of significance (and if it's not significant enough for the lead, it's certainly not significant enough for an IB) - SchroCat (talk) 10:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, you're wrong — it has implications for GATT-restoration. I did not say it unambiguously tells us whether something is in copyright or not, just that the knowledge is useful and helps determine copyright status.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- If you are relying on an IB for something that has "implications for GATT-restoration" - and something you now admit is ambiguous in terms of copyright, then it's a straw man when it comes to an IB discussion. - SchroCat (talk) 10:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, not at all — these are relevant facts that traditionally have been presented in infoboxes. Your arguments are against infoboxes in any article, which is frankly a discussion that does not belong here. As for this article — there are as of yet no arguments for why it is better of without an infobox that can give simple access to relevant information.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
"arguments are against infoboxes in any article"
: not true. I am considering the case for this article in my responses."there are as of yet no arguments for why it is better of without an infobox"
: you have given no arguments why for this article there is a need to include it. As this article has been without an IB from inception in 2002 to date, including through through two community review processes without an IB, the onus is to make the argument for adding a box for this page.- You have provided a misleading straw man on copyright (nothing to do with this article) and—to (mis)quote you—your arguments are for infoboxes in any article, which is frankly a discussion that does not belong here". - SchroCat (talk) 10:38, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- No, not at all — these are relevant facts that traditionally have been presented in infoboxes. Your arguments are against infoboxes in any article, which is frankly a discussion that does not belong here. As for this article — there are as of yet no arguments for why it is better of without an infobox that can give simple access to relevant information.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- If you are relying on an IB for something that has "implications for GATT-restoration" - and something you now admit is ambiguous in terms of copyright, then it's a straw man when it comes to an IB discussion. - SchroCat (talk) 10:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, you're wrong — it has implications for GATT-restoration. I did not say it unambiguously tells us whether something is in copyright or not, just that the knowledge is useful and helps determine copyright status.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 10:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Do you even know how to write a decent article, or do you think the secret in excellent writing lies within a load of bulleted factoids? CassiantoTalk 22:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- That is the absolute opposite of my argument. Resorting to ad hominem attacks often causes one to lose track of what is being argued for. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:54, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is nothing ad hominem about what I've said: I've merely questioned your preference for a bulleted list over professionally written prose. I think you have to have a memory like a sieve to forget what this subject is about. CassiantoTalk 23:09, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Once again, this is bordering on actionable incivility. If you go back to any of my comments you will see that I argue against bulleted lists.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 09:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- There's nothing uncivil about one editor asking another which they prefer, list-like points within an infobox, or professionally written prose. But congratulations, you've now managed to shoehorn the first cliché essay in; just one more to go and you've got the pair. CassiantoTalk 12:16, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Civil or not, the question of preference of parameter-value pairs (I guess that is what you mean by "list-like points") or prose has nothing to do with this discussion. The question here is if a few parameter-value pairs may appear in addition to the untouched prose, for those readers who, for whatever reason, prefer that, or if these readers will not be served, as for the last 14 years (calculated below). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was under the impression we were talking about infoboxes and Carl Fredrik's preference of "parameter-value pairs". If that's got nothing to do with this discussion, then I must've dreamt up the last week. CassiantoTalk 20:02, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was not clear. Our (the editors") preferences don't matter as long we have in the article both, "parameter-value pairs" and prose. Then the readers can take what THEY prefer, which may be one day this, another day that. It's called accessibility. - By asking Carl Fredrik's preference, you make it sound like it's either/or. Nobody I know has so far suggested to replace the prose by an infobox ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- People who rely on infoboxes to read an article are non-readers, IMO. I try to not cater for them in the arts articles I write. But here's an idea: Maybe we should just all go home and save our time writing quality articles. Instead, let's replace all the prose with one bloody great big infobox each. I had no idea the clap-trap we write to FA status can be such a burden on the poor old fact hunters. CassiantoTalk 22:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is nothing in ACCESSIBILITY that requires the use of an IB: this is just another straw man (or a clutching at straws, at any rate). – SchroCat (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Accessibility is about making the information accessible, in different ways. I didn't say anything about "requires". I accept that you, Cassianto, don't cater for readers you don't find worthy of your "beautifully crafted articles" (quoted from The Rite of Spring, 2013) I (and others) want to cater also for the other readers. Again, the infobox suggested (not great and big) is not to replace, but to support. I praised a user the other day for "I don't see any logical reason to make information harder to access." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'll go back to what I said way back up the page: the key details as are in the lead, and not just that, they very key details are in the opening sentence, accessible to all. More than that, the opening sentence actually provides the context of why we have an article on him. - SchroCat (talk) 08:21, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Accessibility is about making the information accessible, in different ways. I didn't say anything about "requires". I accept that you, Cassianto, don't cater for readers you don't find worthy of your "beautifully crafted articles" (quoted from The Rite of Spring, 2013) I (and others) want to cater also for the other readers. Again, the infobox suggested (not great and big) is not to replace, but to support. I praised a user the other day for "I don't see any logical reason to make information harder to access." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is nothing in ACCESSIBILITY that requires the use of an IB: this is just another straw man (or a clutching at straws, at any rate). – SchroCat (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- People who rely on infoboxes to read an article are non-readers, IMO. I try to not cater for them in the arts articles I write. But here's an idea: Maybe we should just all go home and save our time writing quality articles. Instead, let's replace all the prose with one bloody great big infobox each. I had no idea the clap-trap we write to FA status can be such a burden on the poor old fact hunters. CassiantoTalk 22:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was not clear. Our (the editors") preferences don't matter as long we have in the article both, "parameter-value pairs" and prose. Then the readers can take what THEY prefer, which may be one day this, another day that. It's called accessibility. - By asking Carl Fredrik's preference, you make it sound like it's either/or. Nobody I know has so far suggested to replace the prose by an infobox ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was under the impression we were talking about infoboxes and Carl Fredrik's preference of "parameter-value pairs". If that's got nothing to do with this discussion, then I must've dreamt up the last week. CassiantoTalk 20:02, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Civil or not, the question of preference of parameter-value pairs (I guess that is what you mean by "list-like points") or prose has nothing to do with this discussion. The question here is if a few parameter-value pairs may appear in addition to the untouched prose, for those readers who, for whatever reason, prefer that, or if these readers will not be served, as for the last 14 years (calculated below). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- There's nothing uncivil about one editor asking another which they prefer, list-like points within an infobox, or professionally written prose. But congratulations, you've now managed to shoehorn the first cliché essay in; just one more to go and you've got the pair. CassiantoTalk 12:16, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Once again, this is bordering on actionable incivility. If you go back to any of my comments you will see that I argue against bulleted lists.Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 09:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- There is nothing ad hominem about what I've said: I've merely questioned your preference for a bulleted list over professionally written prose. I think you have to have a memory like a sieve to forget what this subject is about. CassiantoTalk 23:09, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- That is the absolute opposite of my argument. Resorting to ad hominem attacks often causes one to lose track of what is being argued for. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 22:54, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Do you even know how to write a decent article, or do you think the secret in excellent writing lies within a load of bulleted factoids? CassiantoTalk 22:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support infobox per nom. Unless there is a unique new argument in here somewhere, this article would benefit from an infobox for the same reason virtually all articles benefit from an infobox. If anyone has anything new to say, do point it out. Montanabw(talk) 20:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Further comment: This article was created as a stub on 15 April 2002. In its long journey from a single line to a current FA and former TFA it has not had an infobox. Now, I have heard it argued in other discussions that the presence of an infobox in an article over x years should be regarded as an ipso facto consensus for its continuing presence. I agree with that point of view; I have listened to people, learned my lessons and would not support the removal of an established infobox from any article on the grounds of my personal preference. Why, though, should the argument not run just as well in the opposite fashion – why shouldn't the absence of an infobox for 14 years be equally considered an ipso facto consensus for its omission, and be respected as such? That consensus would seem to me to have more validity than the garnering of supports and opposes by each side, to produce an illusory majority that can be overturned in a re-run six, twelve, eighteen months hence. Is that what we want, endless arguing, insults, ill-feeling, the same points ground out again and again ad infinitum? Enough is enough, surely. There are many more constructive things we could be doing. Brianboulton (talk) 23:19, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment to further comment: It is perhaps time to reflect on what consensus is and, more especially, what it is not. As usual, Brianboulton is perfectly correct: precedence is ipso facto consensus, and what we are discussing here is not simply do we like or dislike infoboxes, but is there consensus for a change to the status quo. Because consensus is not established by a simple up-and-down vote (which, as both Brianboulton and the referenced definitions of consensus state, could easily result in a constant flip-flopping back and forth, as the narrow margin of one vote is overturned by an equally narrow margin in the next), we are talking about a broad agreement amongst the editors actively involved on this article to change the article's established condition. No matter how many further "votes" may be cast—one way or the other—it is plain that there is no consensus for change, and it is time (perhaps some would say long past time) to close this fruitless debate as "no change".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:08, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Response to Brian: The top of this talk says "Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so." - I didn't update. I only asked the question if this article could be improved by a box which shows at a glance has together when and where he lived and died, and his compositions. If the answer is no, I can live with that. However I felt that not even the question was understood ;) - If we disregard the comments dealing with infobox in general, not much is left of this long discussion. Thank you, Brian, for your model on FA Percy Grainger! Looking forward to the birthday of Albert Ketèlbey (with a nice hidden message). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Infoboxes are a can of worms. Paul August ☎ 21:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's essentially a content-free statement. Please provide an actual rationale. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Really? Must I? Then per Ssilvers above. Paul August ☎ 20:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support: Infoboxes are a de facto standard feature of articles now. Years of isolated campaigning against them have totally failed to turn the ship around, and it's time to just give it a rest. Infoboxes are especially helpful for mobile users, to get basic details without having to wade through a huge pile of content that is difficult to read on such devices. We already know that the majority of our users are accessing WP via mobile at least part of the time. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:16, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Support - infoboxes are good things. Sometimes a reader doesn't have time to read all the prose and can just glance at the infobox if they need a date, or something. I find them to be quite useful. Atsme📞📧 02:10, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Comment -- As I've said elsewhere, people who rely on Infoboxes to better understand a subject are, in my opinion, non-readers. I do not cater for them; I cater for people who have the intelligence to be able to string a couple of sentences together. CassiantoTalk 07:45, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NOTYOU. This is also fallacious on several other levels. The presence of an infobox has no effect of any kind on how you get to write content in the article. Readers who depend on infoboxes on a device with a 2.5 inch by 4.5 inch screen are unlikely to do so on a 26 in monitor. The most common use of infoboxes is not to "better understand" a subject anyway, but to get a précis, or some particular bit of commonly sought information (e.g. era of a composer, platforms for which a video game was released, taxonomic tree of a species, etc.); reading the full text of the article is how ones gets a better understanding of the subject. We don't get to dictate to our readers how they use our articles, or for what purpose. Some want them for nothing but source citations and do not trust a word that we've written on the topic. Others want to do nothing but but skim for basics on a wide range of topics to boost their trivia night scores. Others want to exclusively read every nuance of everything we write about early-modern British composers. And WP is written for all of them. It probably takes more, not less, reading comprehension ability to understand infoboxes than regular prose, because the former is not written in complete sentences but in highly clipped table format with a lot of the semantics dropped. I'm sure millions of our readers appreciate having their intelligence insulted by you, though. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:25, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- It is worth taking Cassianto's comment very seriously. We have room on Wikipedia for all sorts of editors and I wouldn't wish to discourage those who immerse themselves so deeply in the articles they edit, that they feel invested in their work. It is not unnatural to want readers to take in the whole article when you've spent so much time and effort in writing the bulk of it. Cass, SchroCat, Tim and the others produce great work, and I can understand why they don't want something that appears to devalue their efforts, even if I don't agree with the conclusions they reach about infoboxes. In this case, the contrary argument is mainly that half of our readers come from countries where English is not the first language. The English Wikipedia is unique in being the largest Wikipedia by a substantial margin, and we ought to cater for the many readers who have difficultly in understanding English, but have no article in their own language. Gustav Holst has articles in nearly 50 languages (although I doubt that there are very many native Esperanto or Latin speakers to cater for), but that still leaves a lot of potential readers who may find it easier to pick out some basic information from the infobox than from the lead. --RexxS (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think that this does get to one real crux of the issue: Many who oppose infoboxes have previously stated things like "have the intelligence to be able to string a couple of sentences together..." implying that unless you read the entire article, you shouldn’t bother reading it at all. Yet, many people seek basic information, and it is often a question of time or interest, not intelligence (and frankly, even if they are of limited proficiency, shouldn’t we draw them in?). An infobox is a good place to put the information most often sought by the non-aficionado on a topic, precisely so it does not clutter a well-written lead. Montanabw(talk) 23:56, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Question for Montanabw: You have cught my attention with an intriguing notion, but I am not quite certain what it is you mean. You hold that an infobox is a good place to put information "so it does not clutter a well-written lead". Could you expand on this, please? What information should be removed from a well-written lead (on fgounds that it would clutter it) and put in an infobox instead? I think this is the first time I have heard an argument for leaving basic information out of the lead, in favour of putting clutter into an infobox. This cannot possibly be what you meant to say.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Further: "if they are of limited proficiency, shouldn’t we draw them in?" – Simple Wikipedia is thataway, without an infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Both SMcCandlish and Montana have inadvertently highlighted one of the main reasons why attempts to impose infoboxes on all WP articles are strongly resisted by certain factions. Both these editors appear to see the box as a useful repository for trivia, rather than as a means of summarising "key facts" which is what it was originally devised for. There may be differences of opinion as to what are the key facts in individual cases, but the arguments that infoboxes should be used to store factoids to enable readers "to boost their trivia night scores", or as a good place to hold information to avoid "lead clutter", are new ones on me – and nothing to do with WP policy. I have said earlier that I would not particularly object to the limited box presented at the top of this thread, but in view of these recent comments I wonder for how long it would be left in this format? If a clutter of out-of-context trivia is the first thing that our readers see, how is that going to help their understanding of a subject? Brianboulton (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Jerome Kohl: There are quite a few examples of where an infobox contains information that doesn't appear in a well-written lead. An example I'm familiar with is {{infobox medical condition}}, where there are fields for the ICD-10 and similar. These are simply an aid to classification and don't render well in prose, so don't actually appear anywhere else in the article; they certainly would clutter the lead. A similar situation applies to {{infobox drug}} where most of the fields don't appear elsewhere. And you can look at Template talk:Video game reviews for examples of discussions about whether release dates are better just in the infobox or rendered into prose in the text. At some point, as Brianboulton says, the information spills over into trivia; but I'm afraid that we'll all find that one person's "trivia" is often another person's "vital information", and we have to treat other editors' opinions with respect. --RexxS (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Congratulations on making the first serious attempt in this discussion to persuade anyone to change their mind. Please tell me more. Since the currently proposed infobox contains nothing in addition to the basic data contained in the lede (apart from a link to the List of compositions by ...), what kind of information would you suggest should be added, in order that this infobox would contribute useful information that does not belong in the lead, along the lines of the non-biographical examples you have offered?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the kind words, Jerome, but I have to admit I wasn't trying particularly to change anyone's mind; rather I was hoping to add further information to the debate, so that people could make a more informed decision. Whether someone supports or opposes an infobox on any given article will depend on the weight they ascribe to multiple aspects: functionality, aesthetics, the degree to which the key information can be concisely summarised, and probably others. When I try to weigh up the common advantages of at-a-glance convenience for readers, reader expectation, microformats and structured data for re-users against the common disadvantages of aesthetics, maintenance, and opposition by the core editors of the article, I don't see an overwhelming strength of argument for either side in this case. My natural inclination is to give more weight to the metadata aspects, but I can see that many others may allow very little weight to those, and reach an opposite conclusion to me. I'm not too worried about that as long as they have considered seriously the arguments before reaching their decision. To answer your direct question: Out of the six pieces of information in the illustrative infobox above, three don't appear in the lead: Holst's place of birth, his place of death and his age at death - they possibly don't fit well into the lead (which is why they are more useful in an infobox). If I were to suggest another piece of information that might be appropriate for the infobox, not summarised in the lead, that would be years active (1890–1934, perhaps?), as it should give the reader an immediate insight to the period in which he was composing - but of course, it is only useful if there's general agreement about the dates, and preferably a source. --RexxS (talk) 23:22, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Congratulations on making the first serious attempt in this discussion to persuade anyone to change their mind. Please tell me more. Since the currently proposed infobox contains nothing in addition to the basic data contained in the lede (apart from a link to the List of compositions by ...), what kind of information would you suggest should be added, in order that this infobox would contribute useful information that does not belong in the lead, along the lines of the non-biographical examples you have offered?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Jerome Kohl: There are quite a few examples of where an infobox contains information that doesn't appear in a well-written lead. An example I'm familiar with is {{infobox medical condition}}, where there are fields for the ICD-10 and similar. These are simply an aid to classification and don't render well in prose, so don't actually appear anywhere else in the article; they certainly would clutter the lead. A similar situation applies to {{infobox drug}} where most of the fields don't appear elsewhere. And you can look at Template talk:Video game reviews for examples of discussions about whether release dates are better just in the infobox or rendered into prose in the text. At some point, as Brianboulton says, the information spills over into trivia; but I'm afraid that we'll all find that one person's "trivia" is often another person's "vital information", and we have to treat other editors' opinions with respect. --RexxS (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Both SMcCandlish and Montana have inadvertently highlighted one of the main reasons why attempts to impose infoboxes on all WP articles are strongly resisted by certain factions. Both these editors appear to see the box as a useful repository for trivia, rather than as a means of summarising "key facts" which is what it was originally devised for. There may be differences of opinion as to what are the key facts in individual cases, but the arguments that infoboxes should be used to store factoids to enable readers "to boost their trivia night scores", or as a good place to hold information to avoid "lead clutter", are new ones on me – and nothing to do with WP policy. I have said earlier that I would not particularly object to the limited box presented at the top of this thread, but in view of these recent comments I wonder for how long it would be left in this format? If a clutter of out-of-context trivia is the first thing that our readers see, how is that going to help their understanding of a subject? Brianboulton (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Further: "if they are of limited proficiency, shouldn’t we draw them in?" – Simple Wikipedia is thataway, without an infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Question for Montanabw: You have cught my attention with an intriguing notion, but I am not quite certain what it is you mean. You hold that an infobox is a good place to put information "so it does not clutter a well-written lead". Could you expand on this, please? What information should be removed from a well-written lead (on fgounds that it would clutter it) and put in an infobox instead? I think this is the first time I have heard an argument for leaving basic information out of the lead, in favour of putting clutter into an infobox. This cannot possibly be what you meant to say.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think that this does get to one real crux of the issue: Many who oppose infoboxes have previously stated things like "have the intelligence to be able to string a couple of sentences together..." implying that unless you read the entire article, you shouldn’t bother reading it at all. Yet, many people seek basic information, and it is often a question of time or interest, not intelligence (and frankly, even if they are of limited proficiency, shouldn’t we draw them in?). An infobox is a good place to put the information most often sought by the non-aficionado on a topic, precisely so it does not clutter a well-written lead. Montanabw(talk) 23:56, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- It is worth taking Cassianto's comment very seriously. We have room on Wikipedia for all sorts of editors and I wouldn't wish to discourage those who immerse themselves so deeply in the articles they edit, that they feel invested in their work. It is not unnatural to want readers to take in the whole article when you've spent so much time and effort in writing the bulk of it. Cass, SchroCat, Tim and the others produce great work, and I can understand why they don't want something that appears to devalue their efforts, even if I don't agree with the conclusions they reach about infoboxes. In this case, the contrary argument is mainly that half of our readers come from countries where English is not the first language. The English Wikipedia is unique in being the largest Wikipedia by a substantial margin, and we ought to cater for the many readers who have difficultly in understanding English, but have no article in their own language. Gustav Holst has articles in nearly 50 languages (although I doubt that there are very many native Esperanto or Latin speakers to cater for), but that still leaves a lot of potential readers who may find it easier to pick out some basic information from the infobox than from the lead. --RexxS (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NOTYOU. This is also fallacious on several other levels. The presence of an infobox has no effect of any kind on how you get to write content in the article. Readers who depend on infoboxes on a device with a 2.5 inch by 4.5 inch screen are unlikely to do so on a 26 in monitor. The most common use of infoboxes is not to "better understand" a subject anyway, but to get a précis, or some particular bit of commonly sought information (e.g. era of a composer, platforms for which a video game was released, taxonomic tree of a species, etc.); reading the full text of the article is how ones gets a better understanding of the subject. We don't get to dictate to our readers how they use our articles, or for what purpose. Some want them for nothing but source citations and do not trust a word that we've written on the topic. Others want to do nothing but but skim for basics on a wide range of topics to boost their trivia night scores. Others want to exclusively read every nuance of everything we write about early-modern British composers. And WP is written for all of them. It probably takes more, not less, reading comprehension ability to understand infoboxes than regular prose, because the former is not written in complete sentences but in highly clipped table format with a lot of the semantics dropped. I'm sure millions of our readers appreciate having their intelligence insulted by you, though. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:25, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose 'Readers' are by definition able to read; the key information can readily be gleaned from the first sentence of the lead. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:21, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's a bit oversimplified. Blind users are unable to read, and yet we do count them as "readers" and editors. Some dyslexic readers value infoboxes precisely because it minimizes the need to read a gray blur of text, which is something that they aren't "readily" able to do. We also get feedback from people who struggle with English, who prefer infoboxes because they don't have to read sentences (or paragraphs, or more, depending upon which specific fact is being sought) if they can find it quickly in an infobox. This isn't necessarily an argument for or against an infobox in this specific article, but I think it is important to remember that different people get information from Wikipedia in different ways. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:54, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- A kind thought in theory, but the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box. I know from experience that we tend to end up with name of spouse and place of burial etc etc, which don't help all that much to convey in a couple of dozen words why, e.g. Mozart is among the greatest of composers. Where one can get the essential facts into an i-b, I am an enthusiastic proponent of them. The article I am currently aiming to take to FAC will have an i-b, because it will be helpful and relevant. But they aren't always. Tim riley talk 16:16, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's actually the crux of this issue, Tim. You think that "the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box", so no composer article could possibly be improved by an infobox. I don't accept that any editor - even one as eminent as yourself - can pre-judge the suitability of every article for an infobox and I'll continue to oppose your attempts to straight-jacket every one of these articles into the form that you have decided they should have. The Beethoven article has an infobox with eight key facts (at least two of which are not mentioned in the lead), along with a link to his works and a specimen signature. Those don't explain why Beethoven is among the greatest of composers, but they do satisfy the need that someone might have to place Beethoven's life in time and location. Biographical infoboxes rarely explain why a subject is interesting, but do help with the 'when' and 'where' of their life, regardless of the topic area for which the subject is notable. If the infobox doesn't make a net improvement to the article, let's not have it; but let's have a reasoned discussion, rather than a diktat from those who think they know best. --RexxS (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Who Reads Wikipedia?--Moxy (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
- Tim, I agree that all the important facts can't be squeezed into an infobox. But from the POV of a reader who is in search of an individual, simple fact, e.g., "Where was Holst born?", it is certainly true that "the only fact that is important to me at the moment" could easily be placed in an infobox. Right now, to find Holst's birthplace, you have to search through 400 words first. So imagine that you don't actually care why Holst is awesome. Imagine that you really only want to know if he is a potential subject for the homework that your history-of-music teacher ordered on "Dead Composers from England". And imagine that you can't read English easily. From that POV, an infobox would be very helpful in meeting your needs. Or perhaps you're looking for a list of his compositions, which appears halfway through the article, and again in the navbox, which is invisible on mobile devices (=about half of our readers). Having that at the top would be handy for that reader.
More generally: are we at risk of imposing a single narrative on readers? Is there only one Correct Way™ to use an article? Are we starting to think that All True Readers want to know the whole story, as explained in 9,000 carefully chosen words, and to design articles not only to support this rare person, but also to ignore and exclude the others? Perhaps we should spend more time thinking about our average reader, rather than our ideal one. This particular article gets about 400 views on an average day. Based upon research with mobile platform, many of those 400 readers never progress past the lead, and very few – maybe just one or two each day – read the whole thing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's actually the crux of this issue, Tim. You think that "the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box", so no composer article could possibly be improved by an infobox. I don't accept that any editor - even one as eminent as yourself - can pre-judge the suitability of every article for an infobox and I'll continue to oppose your attempts to straight-jacket every one of these articles into the form that you have decided they should have. The Beethoven article has an infobox with eight key facts (at least two of which are not mentioned in the lead), along with a link to his works and a specimen signature. Those don't explain why Beethoven is among the greatest of composers, but they do satisfy the need that someone might have to place Beethoven's life in time and location. Biographical infoboxes rarely explain why a subject is interesting, but do help with the 'when' and 'where' of their life, regardless of the topic area for which the subject is notable. If the infobox doesn't make a net improvement to the article, let's not have it; but let's have a reasoned discussion, rather than a diktat from those who think they know best. --RexxS (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- A kind thought in theory, but the important facts about a composer can't be squeezed into an info-box. I know from experience that we tend to end up with name of spouse and place of burial etc etc, which don't help all that much to convey in a couple of dozen words why, e.g. Mozart is among the greatest of composers. Where one can get the essential facts into an i-b, I am an enthusiastic proponent of them. The article I am currently aiming to take to FAC will have an i-b, because it will be helpful and relevant. But they aren't always. Tim riley talk 16:16, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- That's a bit oversimplified. Blind users are unable to read, and yet we do count them as "readers" and editors. Some dyslexic readers value infoboxes precisely because it minimizes the need to read a gray blur of text, which is something that they aren't "readily" able to do. We also get feedback from people who struggle with English, who prefer infoboxes because they don't have to read sentences (or paragraphs, or more, depending upon which specific fact is being sought) if they can find it quickly in an infobox. This isn't necessarily an argument for or against an infobox in this specific article, but I think it is important to remember that different people get information from Wikipedia in different ways. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:54, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
ArbCom
The question on the hidden texts (which has widened into a more general thread) has been raised at Arbcom: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Amendment request: Infoboxes. Interested parties are open to make comments should they wish. – SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 7 August 2016 (UTC)