CaradhrasAiguo (talk | contribs) |
Geographyinitiative (talk | contribs) →Neutrality is disputed: :::: The higher-level Wikipedians have not been engaged in the process here. I know you want the character 进 on this page, but it's not from Taiwan. Including the form with this character is outside the scope of this article. There's no re-litigation- this will be the first time that this particular issue is brought up for the 10 year upper-level Wikipedians and I feel they will agree with me and not agree with this consensus. ~~~~ |
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::Okay, good. Now I am saying that the consensus that was reached is in conflict with Wikipedia Neutrality policy. [[User:Geographyinitiative|Geographyinitiative]] ([[User talk:Geographyinitiative|talk]]) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC) |
::Okay, good. Now I am saying that the consensus that was reached is in conflict with Wikipedia Neutrality policy. [[User:Geographyinitiative|Geographyinitiative]] ([[User talk:Geographyinitiative|talk]]) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::[[WP:STICK|Re-litigating a closed RfC on the same grounds]] is not going to work; the other participants did not accept the notion that the simplified characters' inclusion violates NPOV. <span style="color: #8B0000">Caradhras</span>Aiguo (<small>[[User talk:CaradhrasAiguo|leave language]]</small>) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC) |
:::[[WP:STICK|Re-litigating a closed RfC on the same grounds]] is not going to work; the other participants did not accept the notion that the simplified characters' inclusion violates NPOV. <span style="color: #8B0000">Caradhras</span>Aiguo (<small>[[User talk:CaradhrasAiguo|leave language]]</small>) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::: The higher-level Wikipedians have not been engaged in the process here. I know you want the character 进 on this page, but it's not from Taiwan. Including the form with this character is outside the scope of this article. There's no re-litigation- this will be the first time that this particular issue is brought up for the 10 year upper-level Wikipedians and I feel they will agree with me and not agree with this consensus. [[User:Geographyinitiative|Geographyinitiative]] ([[User talk:Geographyinitiative|talk]]) 18:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== Anti-communism == |
== Anti-communism == |
Revision as of 18:52, 18 December 2020
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Fascism
In all the election campaign, DPP uses the tactic that "if you love Taiwan, vote for DPP", "if you are true Taiwanese, vote for DPP", "if you vote for the pan blue parties, you are not Taiwanese", and furthermore, "if you vote for the pan blue parties, you are Chinese communist", "if you are fed in Taiwanese food, you should vote for true Taiwanese", "Pan blue parties are Chinese parties, not Taiwanese" (2000 & 2004 presidential election, 1998, 2001 and 2004 legistilative yuan members election)
DPP government insists to call the Fujian dialect as "Taiwanese", people who immigrated to Taiwan from China more than 100 years ago as true "Taiwanese", while ignoring the voices of Taiwanese aboriginal people.
From the definition fo Fascism in Wikipedia,
* exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual. * stresses loyalty to a single leader. * uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition. * engages in severe economic and social regimentation. * implements totalitarianism.
point 1: Over the years, even being more corrupted than the GMT government, its core voters follow the slogan of DPP "if you are true Taiwanese, vote for DPP". (2000 & 2004 presidential election, 1998, 2001 and 2004 legistilative yuan members election)
point 2: Chen Shui-bian. The most recent example, holding the 2004 referendum because Chen wants it, and then overturning the 2004 referendum results also because Chen doesn't like them, meanwhile millions of dollars are wasted. (2004 presidential election)
point 3: Use the "Government Information Office" to control medias with opposite openion. Control CTS, TTV and FTV and censor the news regarding opposite parties. Legalise underground radios who supported Chen in the 2004 elections.
point 4: Control the education system. In the official high school social study textbook, DPP government changed the text declares the constitution of ROC first written by GMT "may against the law", law of what is unclear.
point 5: From definition, all totalitarian régimes pose as the culmination of 'true' democracy as opposed to the liberal democracies that exercise the rule of law and respect property rights. In all elections, DPP claims that they are the true democracy, and to oppose DPP is to oppose democracy.
I would welcome Wilfried Derksen to challange the above points. bobbybuilder 18:12pm, 22 June 2005 (UTC)
- I am not convinced by the 5 points that it makes the DPP fascist. I would like to see some more Taiwanese reactions on that. At the other hand, it is clearly not a neutral point of view to call this party fascist. A sentence that the party stresses Taiwanese identity is not NPOV.
- I will revert the text since it is not NPOVElectionworld 20:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
NPOV in wikipedia means to be "neutral", not to be only "positive". If you ignore everything negative, then it is definitely not neutral. "A sentence that the party stresses Taiwanese identity is not NPOV."? Please explain. The definition is there, the facts are there, if you are not convinced, bring up other facts. Otherwise it is just your POV. bobbybuilder 22:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no particular reason to associate racism and fascism with the DPP. I say this as a very strong supporter of the KMT.
If you want to write a deeper article into why some Taiwanese think the DPP is racist and fascist, go ahead, but simply linking DPP to articles on racism and fascism without going into detail about why, won't work.
Roadrunner 22:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Taiwanese vote for A-bian, Chinese vote for Lien." DPP campaign 2000, 2004. "The flooding in Kaohsiung was caused by having too many Chinese coming here." DPP Kaohsiung local government 2003.
To your second point, the details about why are there, I cannot help if you want to read selectively.
Interesting point, many DPP workers also like to go to discussion forums and claim they are loyal KMT supporters, and pretend to be very naive about the current affair. bobbybuilder 22:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You can look at my long record of posting on wikipedia, and decide what I really believe.
Also, I included links to racism and fascism with context. One thing that you really have to understand is that most people in the world don't know Taiwan politics, and you have to explain the situation. Linking the DPP to racism and fascism simply makes no sense to most people.
Roadrunner 22:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Added some more stuff. Actually the main reason I had been holding off on expanding the article like I did with the the article on the Kuomintang is that I very much dislike the DPP, and would have preferred if someone who was very much pro-DPP started with a draft.
bobbybullder - if you want to convince people, you have to look and sound reasonable. Saying the ***DPP is a bunch of fascists*** just hurts your cause.
Roadrunner 22:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Please give information what oppositionals label the DPP as fascist and/or racist. I would like you to study what fascism is. Start studying Italy and the Mussolini era. You cannot compare the present government in any way which the fascist dictatorships. Electionworld 05:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pan-blue labels the DPP as fascist. If you do not understand the politics in Taiwan and cannot read Chinese newspaper, I suggest you pull out of the discussion. Are you trying to say Fascist disappeared after the Mussolini era? The definition of Fascism is in Wikipedia, I strongly suggest you study the history of Fascism first, it is not our job to educate you. Please give us examples why we cannot COMPARE the present government in Taiwan IN ANY WAYS with the Fascist dictatorships? bobbybuilder 19:21, 22 Jun 2005 (TST)
think tank
http://www.dppnff.tw/about.php
okay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.104.65.132 (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
RfC on including Simplified Chinese in Infobox Chinese for Democratic Progressive Party
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should this article include Simplified Chinese characters in its {{Infobox Chinese}} template? 17:28, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Background: A March 2020 RfC established in the Manual of Style on Chinese that both the Simplified and Traditional Chinese forms should be included in {{Infobox Chinese}} articles, with room for case-by-case exceptions. This RfC asks to determine whether this article would be such an exception. 18:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Survey (!votes)
- No- don't let biased POV creep onto Wikipedia like this. No source from the culture of the island itself is yet shown to be using the forms of the non-English name of the DPP with 进 and 党 in them. The DPP is not using the forms with 进 and 党 in them. The Taiwanese culture at large isn't either. It's all about the island. Let the island tell you what it wants. Let the sources from the island speak for themselves. No truly neutral POV encyclopedia article would include "non-native native language forms" in an article like this. This RfC question is not actually a question that can be decided on this level- it's just a blatant violation of neutral POV policy on Wikipedia. Wikipedia's English version encyclopedia just needs to document the forms of native language used in a specific area/by a specific organization/by a specific person, not add extra forms. The extra forms not used by the subject of the article are in the territory of a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. Wiktionary is a dictionary, and it has the forms of the name of the DPP with 进 and 党 in them- I made that page myself, to document a non-Taiwanese linguistic reality- see 民进党, etc. Not every topic needs simplified and traditional characters paired together as if they are considered equally legitimate or have equal status according to that person/organization/location- only the ones where that is demonstrable. So to me the question is: in Taiwanese society, is the DPP called by the name 民进党? Isn't it sad on some leve that we have users advocating for adding material not sourced to Taiwan to this article? Why do that? Isn't that a red flag? Of course, don't worry about mainland China articles needing to delete traditional Chinese forms- Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (the official mainland China dictionary of Mandarin Chinese), Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (2016) and historical/artistic sources all confirm the existence and usage (in a now secondary role) of what they call traditional characters. You can't overrule the NPOV policy of Wikipedia- it would be like the North Carolina Amendment 1 in which the people banned gay marriage by a vote, but the Supreme Court overruled it. In the same way, this question cannot actually be used to overrule neutral point of view (NPOV) policy for Wikipedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Details of Geographyinitiative's !vote
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- tl;dr: Display of the form '民进党' on this page violates the "prominence of placement" aspect of undue weight in WP:NPOV because it's not documented in natural native-to-native communication in the distinct culture group on Taiwan island and associated islands; BBC articles about Taiwan in simplified characters are not directed toward a Taiwanese audience. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- (PS No offense is meant to MarkH21 or CaradhrasAiguo by my arguments, but I think there is a real problem with the arguments they present.) Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:02, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes: By the recently-established general MOS consensus for all articles related to the Chinese language, the usage of Simplified Chinese for this subject in international media, and lack of arguments for removal specific to the Democratic Progressive Party:
Main details of MarkH21's !vote
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- Note: this is not a prominent inclusion in the article, nor is it even in the lead/body of the article. This is in the linguistic infobox on the right side of the page. — MarkH21talk 17:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC); second set of underlined words 18:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC); bolding & first set of underlined words 09:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
More details of MarkH21's !vote
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- It's a straw man to continue to focus solely on local usage. Nobody is arguing that Taiwan uses the Simplified Chinese form nor that Simplified Chinese should be the preferred form. However, the arguments for the removal of the Simplified form ignore its usage by international Chinese-language & English-language sources, international accessibility, and the WP:NPOV and WP:AUDIENCE issues from focusing solely on local usage. The argument presented for removal so far are so general that it is a relitigation of the March 2020 RfC. Hopefully other editors can determine and guide the rest of the conversation, because Geographyinitiative and I have said more than enough here. — MarkH21talk 10:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, per the general RFC from March 2020. (I also think it's helpful to readers—most people who can read Chinese are more comfortable with one form of characters or the other, so it's useful to provide both, regardless of which Chinese-speaking area the article is about.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I am not convinced by the NPOV argument that GeographyInitiative has attempted to present, by the mere fact (which I have mentioned previously) that Simplified is the standard in Singapore, frequently used by Malaysian Chinese and by Overseas mainland Chinese who have immigrated after the economic reforms on the mainland began in 1978. It is presumptuous WP:OR to assume these three groups oppose the DPP / pan-Green coalition as vociferously as the Communist Party of China does. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 01:44, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes this should put the simplified because as much as it is true that Taiwan usually does not use simplified chinese and as much as I wish that newspapers in the west use traditional, newspapers and books also give this as the chinese name for DPP. Adding both is better for world readers, especially western readers, to find this article and learn more about the DPP and see what most articles give as a name for DPP. I read many Wikipedia articles that provide names from the region and names from outside the region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.104.65.132 (talk) 17:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
- Pinging editors from the previous discussions here and here: Geographyinitiative, CaradhrasAiguo, WhisperToMe, Levivich. — MarkH21talk 17:45, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- What does "In general" mean to you in the wording of RfC? That we can force forms of language not from Taiwan onto Taiwan in the English Wikipedia articles of seemingly exclusively Taiwan articles? If it meant that, then the RfC violated the NPOV policy of Wikipedia. Where on Wikipedia do we add foreign language material not native to the area to the English Wikipedia article???? Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above comment was moved from the "Survey (!votes)" subsection underneath MarkH21's !vote. — MarkH21talk 18:02, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
In general
means forChina and Chinese-related articles
outside of the mentionedexceptions to the general rule
. As editors mentioned in the March 2020 RfC (in which I did not participate), the Simplified Chinese characters for the Chinese name is not an inherently different name. It's not a foreign language. — MarkH21talk 18:04, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Geographyinitiative: It’s not clear what you mean by
That's why I think this qualified for an exception under the old RfC, and the issue would not really be solved by this RfC.
This RfC is to determine consensus as to whether this article qualifies as an exception under the March 2020 RfC; this is not a replacement of the March 2020 RfC nor a contradiction of the March 2020 RfC. — MarkH21talk 19:52, 3 October 2020 (UTC)- The wording of this RfC is flawed and should ask for the old RfC's exception directly rather than obliquely. "Under the old RfC, they talked about exceptions. Should an exception apply here?" would be closer to the mark. But I'm saying that regardless of what anyone may think this current RfC means or a previous RfC and its exceptions means, or the way I understand the exception in the old RfC, Wikipedia is not a dictionary of foreign language terms (like Wiktionary is), and when you give "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to a form of a foreign language name not even used by this organization or used in the specific cultural group where this organization operates, you've clearly giving an undue weight to that extra form, and that's biased- a violation of the NPOV rules for Wikipedia. A flawed RfC or a misapplied RfC can't undue the NPOV policy of Wikipedia.
The argument that including 民进党 here is neutral is to say that people outside Taiwanese culture use the form 民进党 and that 民进党 is "not inherently different" from 民進黨. I would argue that since the two forms are not the same thing, that their difference is inherently obvious- you're saying a=a, but I'm saying the two a's are not the same. It's like I'm arguing about the Trinity or something. "Jesus and God the Father are both God"- but they are different in some respect- one of those respects being what they are recorded as doing in the Bible. Similarly, yeah, maybe you could pretend that on some level 民进党 is "not inherently different" from 民進黨, but that's on a theoretical level- the forms are actually different. The double negative in the words "not inherently different" means "inherently the same", but do the people in Taiwan culture think that? If they do, why aren't they demonstrated to be using the 民进党 form interchangeably with 民進黨? The whole point is that they are inherently different, and that's why we have people trying to add the extra form from outside Taiwan culture here- they want to add what constitutes a different form from 民進黨 on this page. Whether the difference is "inherent" or "not inherent", they acknowledge some degree of difference.
The fact is, these two forms have a different scope of actual usage in real life. It's not "wherever I see a traditional character, a simplified must be there too" (that's dictionary thinking, or thinking for the Mandarin Chinese version of Wikipedia, where the readers need all forms of all characters for all topics, otherwise they can't read). The 民进党 form has a different historical scope of usage. An encyclopedia would be sensitive to that and display usage concordant with their actual usage in the societies in question. It would be different if we could cite sources from Taiwan that use the form 民进党, but no one even tries to do that. I tried it above, and got below paltry results.
The policy proposed in opposition to my opinion believes in just ignoring what the linguistic situation is on the islands controlled by Taiwan and just adding things from the outside to otherwise seemingly exclusively Taiwan topics. My position is sensitive to the native language situation in Taiwan and leans on sources cited to the internal native language communications of the Taiwanese. Those sources can prove non-standard, simplified, Japanese-derived etc forms used by the Taiwanese, between the Taiwanese. Come on now- isn't my position more nuanced and neutral than the cookie-cutter "simplified right next to traditional even when they don't use it" position? Which sounds more like a neutral encyclopedia? The second position sounds like a neutral dictionary entry documenting Chinese character forms, not an encyclopedia article documenting / explaining foreign language usage in areas outside the English speaking world. In the context of an encyclopedia, it's adding extra foreign language content from outside Taiwan to Taiwan encyclopedia articles. That's the bias I'm talking about. It's undue "prominence of placement" to add 民进党 right below 民進黨 as if Taiwan culture puts 民进党 in a "second place" in amount of usage to the form 民進黨. In mainland China and elsewhere, they do seem to have a tiered system where their simplified character forms are given prominence over their traditional forms. Both of those forms and their relative cultural/historical status can be documented with relation to the actual usage situation in those areas. But English version Wikipedia is not a dictionary of various foreign language terms and forms of terms- that's Wiktionary.
I personally document alternative forms of non-English names for Taiwan geography and organizations on Wiktionary, whether or not those forms are used in Taiwan. That's what a dictionary does. Wiktionary is a dictionary of all terms for all things in all languages, so we want to know what Mongolian names for Canadian geography are. We want to know what forms of CJKV characters Singaporeans and Japanese and mainland Chinese people use to describe Taiwanese concepts. We want to know what terms Russians use to describe Estonian geography. English Wikipedia only covers the native language terms used by the natives between the natives of the area in question to talk about their geography/religion/organizations/people/concepts etc.
Therefore I say that the previous and current RfC do not restrain the operation of the NPOV policy of Wikipedia in relation to preventing giving "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to the form 民进党 like it is given, without citing any sources in Taiwanese-to-Taiwanese natural native communication. I invoked the exception of the old RfC because it seems like the right place to start- even in the strongest RfC that can be found to bolster making English Wikipedia a dictionary of non-Taiwanese forms of foreign language terms about Taiwan topics, they made a clear indication that there are definitely exceptions. But those exceptions are forced by NPOV policy anyway. The answer "simplified for a seemingly exclusively Taiwanese organization, regardless of native usage in their cultural group!" is jarring to the conscience with respect to a truly neutral encyclopedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- The wording of this RfC is flawed and should ask for the old RfC's exception directly rather than obliquely. "Under the old RfC, they talked about exceptions. Should an exception apply here?" would be closer to the mark. But I'm saying that regardless of what anyone may think this current RfC means or a previous RfC and its exceptions means, or the way I understand the exception in the old RfC, Wikipedia is not a dictionary of foreign language terms (like Wiktionary is), and when you give "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to a form of a foreign language name not even used by this organization or used in the specific cultural group where this organization operates, you've clearly giving an undue weight to that extra form, and that's biased- a violation of the NPOV rules for Wikipedia. A flawed RfC or a misapplied RfC can't undue the NPOV policy of Wikipedia.
RfC Wording
@MarkH21: I have modified the question for the RfC based on our discussion to change it to the actual basis for the non-NPOV claim I am making. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is not WP:RFCNEUTRAL. You are not supposed to make an argument in the statement itself. Your argument is made in the RfC itself. — MarkH21talk 18:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- @MarkH21: If you don't agree to the current rewording, let me know. Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above comments were moved from the end of the previous section. — MarkH21talk 18:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Your rewordings here and here do not adhere to WP:RFCNEUTRAL. RfC statements should be neutral; not inserting potential arguments for one direction. — MarkH21talk 18:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's because the effect of the RfC you are creating here is renedered null by the undue weight part of NPOV policy. There's a page for 民进党 and a page for 民進黨 on Wiktionary, so the claim that there is not some degree of difference is absurd- there are two pages. The question is what you intend to mean by "inherent". I'm saying that if 进 and 党 are not used by the DPP or in Taiwanese society, we have reached a threshold to say that they may not want to use those forms for a reason, or that they never learned them or know them. Following from that, I'm saying that inclusion on this encyclopedia article is a violation of NPOV policy by giving undue weight to material not sourced to the organization or Taiwanese society. Where do we do that on any other Wikipedia encyclopedia page? Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- You're making an argument for/against inclusion. This isn't a point about RfC wording. That's a point to contained within the RfC itself. — MarkH21talk 18:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- No I am not. As I understand it, I am making an argument that inclusion of 民进党 on the page is a violation of NPOV (neutral point of view) policy on Wikipedia. That question is not subject to RfC, unless NPOV policy is subject to RfC, which it isn't. Therefore, this RfC does not address my issue directly. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:36, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Everything pertaining to NPOV is subject to RfC. From the very first sentence of WP:RFC:
Whether to include Simplified Chinese in this article is a dispute; WP:NPOV is a policy; the infobox in Democratic Progressive Party is article content; these are all subject to RfCs. Just look at how many RfCs on NPOV at WT:NPOV and RfCs on NPOV at WP:NPOVN there have been. Not only have applications of the policy been decided by RfC, but the policy itself was largely written by RfC. — MarkH21talk 20:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content.
- @MarkH21: I intend no disrespect toward anybody here- maximally pro-PRC editors are part of the environment of the ideal form of Wikipedia, in that they would modulate inaccuracies and POV problems they find from their perspective; thanks to all of all opinions for participating in the discussion. These are the honest conclusions I have reached.
Yeah, there is a process to decide what's neutral and what's not. But how are we going say that the result is a neutral encyclopedia if we just ignore what forms they are actually using in Taiwan? What I perceive as the opposing position to mine would totally ignore anything happening in linguistics on Taiwan, while my position is sensitive to the actual situation on Taiwan. The proposed understanding opposing mine seems to force a form of the name of this organization not used in the native language on the island onto this page. The "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) given to 民进党 on this page right now is well beyond the existing cultural situation. There is no "second place" form of 民進黨 in Taiwan cultural existence, at least nothing analogous to the way traditional characters are relegated to "second place" in mainland China's official dictionaries, official standards of characters and etc. No one even tries to send me links from .tw websites using the form 民进党 in use between Taiwanese people. Isn't that a red flag?
I'm trying to imagine the situation to myself. If I were in the shoes of the opposing opinion, I would think to myself: "Hey, I'm not finding anything from Taiwan to legitimate the position about a native language-related proposal I'm taking about in a Taiwan topic. Maybe I am adding stuff outside the extant cultural context of Taiwan to a Taiwan article." If the Beijing government decided to change the simplified form of 进 to 井, hence creating the form 民井党 in their cultural context, according to this way of thinking, we would just go "Yep, and now I'm adding it to the English Wikipedia article for the DPP, regardless of any opinions in the DPP or usage in the Taiwanese cultural context." Is that the kind of neutral we are looking for here? In my ideal of what an encyclopedia and a dictionary would be, 民井党 would be added as an entry to Wiktionary, not to the English language version Wikipedia. It would probably be added to Mandarin Chinese Wikipedia's DPP article too.
The "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) given to 民进党 is undue, and that is shown by the facts on the ground in Taiwan, including for instance, no specific evidence discovered after my Google search above that 民进党 is used in natural native-to-native communication in Taiwan. That result can be overturned, but the users in favor of including 民进党 on this page don't even try because their proposed position totally ignores what's happening in Taiwan in terms of linguistic forms. That's not neutral, is it? Also, I was there for the 2020 election in Taiwan, and I walked past some minor DPP campaign headquarters all the time. I never saw any indication that any Taiwanese person was talking with another Taiwanese person and using the form 民进党 or 民井党 in natural native language handwriting. I did see the character 区 everywhere in handwriting in Taiwan (along with 區). I did see 台湾 everywhere (along with the more traditional forms). It's all about facts and sources and actualities, not dreams about what Taiwan coulda, woulda, or shoulda been/done/etc.
To my mind, this attempt to include 民进党 here is cookie-cutter thinking. "I see Chinese characters on English Wikipedia, therefore I must see mainland China's perspective on those Chinese characters." Well, what I'm saying is: not necessarily. I'm not saying "get all the simplified characters out of stuff related to Taiwan!" I'm saying this article is not yet justified to give the "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) it gives to 民进党- the current "prominence of placement" seems biased and not neutral if anything that happens in the culture of Taiwan matters at all to the decision on this question. If we throw out what's happening in Taiwanese culture as determinative of what shows up on this page, then yeah, we can add the Russian and Ethiopian forms of the name of the DPP to this English Wikipedia article too. I'm saying they don't use the form 民进党 yet (as far as we know) in their native communications with themselves. That's it. They very well may one day in the future! Who knows? They may use more and more simplified characters from mainland China or Japan over time, and that could be demonstrated. It's all about them and their unique cultural evolution. We should follow that cultural evolution. They may write it as 民進党 to avoid writing the bottom half of that character, but retaining the more traditional form in the middle. I saw hodgepodges of Japanese simplified forms, etc all mixed in together. What I'm saying is I didn't yet see "民进党" from a Taiwanese to a Taiwanese in the Taiwan cultural context. It's not neutral to run over other people's cultures in this fashion- "Whatever Beijing wants must appear on English Wikipedia's articles on Taiwan." Huh? And that's to be called "neutral"? No, it's biased against Taiwanese culture. Everything used in the reformed system of language for China from Beijing can be documented in Wiktionary, a dictionary, and in the Mandarin Chinese version of Wikipedia. The question is: are the Taiwanese buying it? I'm saying that in the case of the form "民进党", we don't have evidence that Taiwan is buying what Beijing is selling in terms of usage in Taiwan's internal native language communication.
You may say, "Why respect the opinion of this idiot on the internet?" I'm just letting Wikipedia know we are making a grave mistake by ignoring the actual linguistic situation in Taiwan with respect to the DPP when deciding to display the form 民进党 on the English language Wikipedia article. How could something that's not sourced from "there" be part of the native language from "there"? Where do we show non-native foreign language content on Wikipedia articles? I know there are some exceptions for etymologies and historical situations, but a wide ranging exception just to wedge in forms which originate from the PRC that Taiwan isn't even shown use is not only not neutral, it's absurdly non-neutral and biased against Taiwan's existing cultural context. It's like saying: "Here are the form of the name of the DPP those dumb-ass Taiwanese could be using if they would just wise up and realize how simple and easy this form is compared to the complex character form they use." It's a slap in the face. That's not reflective of a normal, neutral encyclopedia. Here's another example or two of some big non-neutral nonsense that I have fixed in our Wiki community: Reversal of Insane Extirpation of local language material by otherwise important user: [1]/[2] Xizang/Tibet: [3]/[4] District names in Kaohsiung [5], Wikipedia more pro-Hanyu Pinyin than Xinhua News Agency [6]/[7] etc etc. I am re-balancing the situation toward genuine neutral based on sources according to the guiding principles & rules of Wikipedia and I would caution you that I might be at least close to correct here too, and my viewpoint is likely not "one in seven billion". I know people are getting offended by this stuff. From a moral perspective, it's just crude and disrespectful to the people of Taiwan to add stuff on the English Wikipedia not reflective of Taiwan's cultural reality, and especially in this case. It's freaky to see stuff not from Taiwan on this page, treated like "oh yeah, and that's neutral buddy: accept that." Huh? But it's not neutral with respect to the culture in Taiwan though- not even close. We are editors, not a dead-hand for implementing some kind of misconstrued view of a past or future RfC. The old RfC called for exceptions and I'm telling you that my viewpoint is following the actual conditions and habits of language in Taiwan with respect to this specific topic. I'm awaiting rebuttal from that perspective, not vague allusions to simplified characters in BBC articles. That has no bearing on the issue.
No disrespect is intended toward anybody; thanks for participating in the discussion. These are the honest conclusions I have reached. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- @MarkH21: I intend no disrespect toward anybody here- maximally pro-PRC editors are part of the environment of the ideal form of Wikipedia, in that they would modulate inaccuracies and POV problems they find from their perspective; thanks to all of all opinions for participating in the discussion. These are the honest conclusions I have reached.
- Everything pertaining to NPOV is subject to RfC. From the very first sentence of WP:RFC:
- No I am not. As I understand it, I am making an argument that inclusion of 民进党 on the page is a violation of NPOV (neutral point of view) policy on Wikipedia. That question is not subject to RfC, unless NPOV policy is subject to RfC, which it isn't. Therefore, this RfC does not address my issue directly. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:36, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- You're making an argument for/against inclusion. This isn't a point about RfC wording. That's a point to contained within the RfC itself. — MarkH21talk 18:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's because the effect of the RfC you are creating here is renedered null by the undue weight part of NPOV policy. There's a page for 民进党 and a page for 民進黨 on Wiktionary, so the claim that there is not some degree of difference is absurd- there are two pages. The question is what you intend to mean by "inherent". I'm saying that if 进 and 党 are not used by the DPP or in Taiwanese society, we have reached a threshold to say that they may not want to use those forms for a reason, or that they never learned them or know them. Following from that, I'm saying that inclusion on this encyclopedia article is a violation of NPOV policy by giving undue weight to material not sourced to the organization or Taiwanese society. Where do we do that on any other Wikipedia encyclopedia page? Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- @MarkH21: If you don't agree to the current rewording, let me know. Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Subsection break
Inserted subsection break since this has nothing to do with the RfC wording anymore. — MarkH21talk 22:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: Hello! Your statement implies that Wikipedia is a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. The "most people" you are talking about is outside of Taiwan, right? Are we documenting non-English language usage by this organization or are we making a dictionary of Chinese character terms? That's the job of the crew over at Wiktionary- here's the dictionary entry you are looking for: 民进党. Yeah, that entry is of course appropriate for Wiktionary- in fact, I made that page myself- it's appropriate content for a dictionary. Did you consider anything about Taiwan culture or the DPP organization itself and whether or not people in Taiwanese society call the organization 民进党 before you said "yes" above? What other cultural groups/countries/etc have extra foreign language terms not sourced to their own culture on their English version Wikipedia articles? (Keep in mind- traditional characters are still an integral though secondary part of mainland China's linguistic standards- Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (the official mainland China dictionary of Mandarin Chinese), Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (2016) and historical/artistic sources all confirm the existence and usage. Do you acknowledge that you're voting to add extra material not from Taiwan to the DPP English Wikipedia article? If you do acknowledge that, how can you justify it? Do the organizations in your home country have foreign language material not sourced to your country given the kind of "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) on their English Wikipedia articles we are seeing here with the form 民进党 on this page? You'd have to admit that Taiwan isn't using the form 民进党, right? Is there any presence of the characters 进 and 党 in Taiwanese natural, native-to-native communication, especially with reference to the DPP? Is there any evidence the DPP is using the form 民进党 in their own cultural group? I got a Google result of about nothing when I searched for "site:.tw 民进党" on Google. I would urge you to reconsider and change your vote to neutral at very least if any of these arguments make sense to you. Thanks for your time. Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- This is not about imposing on anybody's culture. It's helpful to readers for us to include both sets of characters, and that was the consensus in the general RFC. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: Thanks for your response. Why is it helpful for an English language encyclopedia article to violate NPOV (neutral point of view) policy to give "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to dictionary content like 民进党 that is not sourced to the organization or the cultural group the organization is part of? Notice how no one tries to argue that Taiwanese people call the DPP 民进党 in their natural, native-to-native communication. Think about this my friend. What neutral encyclopedia would give an analogous "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to content from outside the culture where the organization operates for any other topic that we are giving to the form 民进党 in this article? What is actually representative of Taiwanese cultural reality? Don't you see the bias here? Keep in mind, the 民進黨 form of the name on this page is linked to Wiktionary, a dictionary where users can explore various names for the DPP used in various languages and linguistic systems not native to Taiwan culture, including 民进党. There are a lot of things that could be added to this page to make it "more informative" in some respect, like the Japanese pronunciation of DPP or the Russian Cyrillic name for the DPP, but the questions are: 1) Would those additions be consistent with the idea of an encyclopedia? 2) Would those additions be consistent with NPOV policy? A dictionary or an encyclopedia in another language is where we document names from outside Taiwanese culture, right? The consensus is not "a simplified for every traditional!"- the actual consensus is that exceptions exist, and that's what NPOV policy demands here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- In my experience it's not unusual for reference works written for English speakers to give both simplified and traditional characters. And it is certainly helpful to readers, for the reason I stated above. I don't see how this could violate NPOV, as long as we apply the same standard to areas that use simplified characters (which we do – see articles such as Shenzhen University and Kwong Wai Siew Peck San Theng). I don't think Japanese and Russian are relevant—this is an issue about two different written standards for Chinese, not about other languages. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: You write: "In my experience it's not unusual for reference works written for English speakers to give both simplified and traditional characters."
Response: What reference works? English encyclopedias? No neutral, English language encyclopedia- none- would include the form 民进党 in its DPP article. The writers would be sensitive to the culture of the organization they are documenting and realize that the 民进党 form is not used by the DPP.
You write: "it is certainly helpful to readers, for the reason I stated above." which was "I also think it's helpful to readers—most people who can read Chinese are more comfortable with one form of characters or the other, so it's useful to provide both, regardless of which Chinese-speaking area the article is about."
Response: "Wikipedia is not a dictionary, phrasebook, or a slang, jargon or usage guide. " (WP:NOTDIC). By the same logic, it might be "helpful" to include the Japanese name 民進党 on this page. Most readers might be interested to learn about this variation in Chinese characters used by Japan. Wouldn't that be helpful too? But the problem is: are we making a dictionary? No! It's an encyclopedia.
You write: "I don't see how this could violate NPOV, as long as we apply the same standard to areas that use simplified characters"
Response: Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (the official mainland China dictionary of Mandarin Chinese), Table of General Standard Chinese Characters (2016) and historical/artistic sources all confirm the existence and usage of traditional characters in a secondary role to simplified characters in mainland China. That's a solid basis for including traditional forms of names on English Wikipedia articles about China- traditional characters have a secondary status in that cultural situation. But just because China or Singapore use simplified characters doesn't mean Taiwan is using them with respect to this topic- and when we scratch the surface, they really don't use them at all with respect to the DPP at least. Go do the Google search and you will know what I'm arguing for: "民进党 site:.tw". There's only two propaganda sites easily sourced to mainland China in the first few pages of results.
You wrote: "this is an issue about two different written standards for Chinese, not about other languages"
Response: if what you wrote is true, why should we wantonly ignore the cultural reality in Taiwan with respect to this issue? I actually am just talking about specific cases warranting exception under the original RfC. (There could have been no effective agreement to violate NPOV anyway.)
It's biased to include non-English content in an English encyclopedia article not sourced to the organization or the cultural group the organization operates within. How could it even be neutral to include 民进党 here if there's no source from Taiwanese culture using that form of the name? There's not even an attempt to show that anyone in Taiwan calls DPP "民进党" when they communicate with other Taiwanese people in their native language. Isn't that a big red flag that this is not neutral? There's undue "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) here with respect to the form 民进党. (In some situations, simplified characters or variant characters are used in Taiwan, and that can be documented with sources.) Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- @Mx. Granger: You write: "In my experience it's not unusual for reference works written for English speakers to give both simplified and traditional characters."
- In my experience it's not unusual for reference works written for English speakers to give both simplified and traditional characters. And it is certainly helpful to readers, for the reason I stated above. I don't see how this could violate NPOV, as long as we apply the same standard to areas that use simplified characters (which we do – see articles such as Shenzhen University and Kwong Wai Siew Peck San Theng). I don't think Japanese and Russian are relevant—this is an issue about two different written standards for Chinese, not about other languages. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: Thanks for your response. Why is it helpful for an English language encyclopedia article to violate NPOV (neutral point of view) policy to give "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to dictionary content like 民进党 that is not sourced to the organization or the cultural group the organization is part of? Notice how no one tries to argue that Taiwanese people call the DPP 民进党 in their natural, native-to-native communication. Think about this my friend. What neutral encyclopedia would give an analogous "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to content from outside the culture where the organization operates for any other topic that we are giving to the form 民进党 in this article? What is actually representative of Taiwanese cultural reality? Don't you see the bias here? Keep in mind, the 民進黨 form of the name on this page is linked to Wiktionary, a dictionary where users can explore various names for the DPP used in various languages and linguistic systems not native to Taiwan culture, including 民进党. There are a lot of things that could be added to this page to make it "more informative" in some respect, like the Japanese pronunciation of DPP or the Russian Cyrillic name for the DPP, but the questions are: 1) Would those additions be consistent with the idea of an encyclopedia? 2) Would those additions be consistent with NPOV policy? A dictionary or an encyclopedia in another language is where we document names from outside Taiwanese culture, right? The consensus is not "a simplified for every traditional!"- the actual consensus is that exceptions exist, and that's what NPOV policy demands here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- This is not about imposing on anybody's culture. It's helpful to readers for us to include both sets of characters, and that was the consensus in the general RFC. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- @MarkH21: Hello! I have responded to all your points here as best I could. Is there any specific argument that I have not responded to in a manner satisfactory to you? I will limit myself to a bullet point response to any direct, specific questions you may be willing to ask me (but keep in mind, there's a background to my answers, probably the majority of which can be found somewhere on this page.) I sincerely urge you to change your position to 'neutral' or 'no' and stop supporting giving a clearly undue "prominence of placement" (WP:NPOV) to non-English material not sourced from the internal native communications Taiwanese culture group (进 and 党 in the context of the DPP) onto this English version Wikipedia encyclopedia article. Thanks for your time. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- The current wording of the RfC does not touch on the issue of whether the neutral point of view policy of Wikipedia is violated by adding the non-English content from outside the Taiwan culture group. If it wins, then that just means the NPOV is violated plus some users were strung together to attempt to defeat the NPOV encyclopedia ideal. The actual issue has to be addressed to address the issue: in the case of this page and its circumstances, can you give prominence of placement to foreign language content not native to Taiwan and still be a self-respecting neutral dictionary? The answer is of course no. Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Here's another evidence that my opinion should not be ignored: an English language word for Mount Everest, Chu-mu-lang-ma, was ignored for years by Wiktionary because it didn't fit with the Hanyu Pinyin-only mindset. I found three books, one of them the Guinness World Book of Records, one a scholarly source, and one a fiction novel, that used the term Chu-mu-lang-ma. We've got a huge bindspot in the Wiki world my friends, and I urge you to do the soul searching you ought to be doing. No more bias. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:59, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
@CaradhrasAiguo: Prove Taiwanese people are using the form 民进党 in their communication between themselves on the island. If you can't, what argument do you have for inclusion here? That people outside Taiwan use the form 民进党? So what if they do? This is not a dictionary, and adding that 民进党 here without evidence of any use of the characters 进 and 党 being used in this context between people in this area in their native language communication is a breach of the concept of an English language encyclopedia. Giving "prominence of placement" (WP:UNDUE) to something that Taiwan people aren't using between themselves? That's undue for an English encyclopedia- it's for a dictionary like Wiktionary or a Mandarin Chinese Encyclopedia, but not for an English language encyclopedia article that just gives the foreign language name that the locals call or have called their organizations. This is not a Singapore article- it's a Taiwan article as far as I can tell, and the Taiwanese people are not using the characters 进 and 党 when they refer to the organization. Keep in mind Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Table of General Standard Chinese Characters show the traditional characters in a secondary capacity and historical and artistic usage proves relevance on mainland China etc other articles. I'm talking about Taiwan, but you are talking about Singapore and other places. Things are different in different places. If Chiang Kai-shek had made up another set of Chinese characters, would you want your organizations/home/biographies etc to show those if your country had not accepted that standard? What if Singapore used it too? There are some cases were simplied-type characters are explicitly used in Taiwan culture. 进 and 党 are not used in this context in Taiwan my friend. How many people in Taiwan know the character 进? How many would use it in discussion of the DPP with another Taiwan person? It's an obvious POV problem- undue prominence of placement to something alien to Taiwan culture. Notice I did not say "Singapore" or refer to other communities. I said "Taiwan".Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- @CaradhrasAiguo: You brought up three groups: Singaporeans, Malaysian Chinese and overseas mainland Chinese. Why does that matter in a discussion of what Taiwan culture is like? Your "yes" vote does not address the culture in Taiwan. Why not address yourself rather to the question of the linguistic culture of Taiwanese people in Taiwan? Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
The neutrality issue is not dormant until it is resolved in favor of removing the non-Taiwanese name not used by the DPP or has been brought before a dispute resolution board that has specifically required inclusion of the non-Taiwanese name in this article. There is a major question about whether the prominence of placement given to a foreign language (non-English) name not used by the DPP or Taiwanese people in their native language communications with themselves does or does not violated WP:UNDUE in the context of an English language Wikipedia article. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have hidden the non-Taiwanese name [8] for the period of this disucssion since no evidence has yet been produced that 民进党 is in use in Taiwanese native language communications between native persons of Taiwan despite weeks of discussion. This temporary rationale seems reasonable to me to prevent a neutrality or POV issue, but if not so viewed by others, I understand. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Looks good to me, thats you! Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Geographyinitiative: The RfC is still running (they typically run for a month, see WP:ANRFC), you are the only one so far to support changing the status quo, and you have bludgeoned this discussion to death. You cannot continue your month-long edit war and push through your proposed change while the RfC is still running. Also, regarding your comment about finding a
dispute resolution board
, RfCs are one of the formal dispute resolution processes.This is not the first time you have been told this. You should self-revert immediately. — MarkH21talk 20:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)- @MarkH21: From your viewpoint, this is discussion does not rise above the level of "silly". But from my viewpoint, a poorly attended RfC is no legitimate basis for forcing what is clearly a non-neutral, non-Taiwanese name into a prominence of placement well beyond its status in Taiwanese culture a clearly Taiwanese article. Yeah, it's part of the first part of this dispute for you to try to get together a little group of ediotrs to get the POV material kept on the page. But once that stage is over, it doesn't mean your side has "won" if the majority is in favor of including what seems clear to be WP:UNDUE non-neutral material on the page ('prominence of placement' issue). At that point, I guess I just go to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, right? @Horse Eye's Back: Don't forget to vote on this issue if you want to! I don't care what side you are on, but it would be cool to see what you think. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- There have already been posts at NPOVN (diff), various WikiProjects (WP Taiwan, WP Political Parties, WP Politics, WP Chinese), and the Manual of Style (Main MOS page, MOS Chinese) to publicize this RfC beyond the usual RfC notification system. Asking the same question again at other noticeboards or talk pages would just be forum shopping.I agree that this RfC could have had more participants. But you bludgeoning the discussion with thousands of words and repeating arguments in a single discussion while refusing to drop the stick is a great way to discourage others from participating in an RfC. Also, there is no "winning" or "losing". You shouldn't view consensus-building discussions as battlegrounds and refrain from making unfounded accusations like
it's part of the first part of this dispute for you to try to get together a little group of ediotrs to get the POV material kept on the page.
— MarkH21talk 17:42, 30 October 2020 (UTC) - My preferred solution (putting Hakka and Taiwanese Hokkien on the same level as the different forms of Mandarin for Taiwan related articles) doesn't really seem to be on the table. I do in general support including both trad and simp Mandarin although I agree with your point that since the DPP has never said what their name is in simp we have a bit of a conundrum on what exactly to say. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: I think that the Hakka/Hokkien suggestion is reasonable, but isn't that more about showing romanizations and not really the topic of this RfC (and the related MOS discussions)? Showing romanizations outside of the hidden box is already implementable using Example text, Example text, Example text, etc. in {{Infobox Chinese}}. — MarkH21talk 18:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- There have already been posts at NPOVN (diff), various WikiProjects (WP Taiwan, WP Political Parties, WP Politics, WP Chinese), and the Manual of Style (Main MOS page, MOS Chinese) to publicize this RfC beyond the usual RfC notification system. Asking the same question again at other noticeboards or talk pages would just be forum shopping.I agree that this RfC could have had more participants. But you bludgeoning the discussion with thousands of words and repeating arguments in a single discussion while refusing to drop the stick is a great way to discourage others from participating in an RfC. Also, there is no "winning" or "losing". You shouldn't view consensus-building discussions as battlegrounds and refrain from making unfounded accusations like
- @MarkH21: From your viewpoint, this is discussion does not rise above the level of "silly". But from my viewpoint, a poorly attended RfC is no legitimate basis for forcing what is clearly a non-neutral, non-Taiwanese name into a prominence of placement well beyond its status in Taiwanese culture a clearly Taiwanese article. Yeah, it's part of the first part of this dispute for you to try to get together a little group of ediotrs to get the POV material kept on the page. But once that stage is over, it doesn't mean your side has "won" if the majority is in favor of including what seems clear to be WP:UNDUE non-neutral material on the page ('prominence of placement' issue). At that point, I guess I just go to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, right? @Horse Eye's Back: Don't forget to vote on this issue if you want to! I don't care what side you are on, but it would be cool to see what you think. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC) (modified)
On numerous occasions, I have brought up the seeming fact that the people in Taiwan are not using the characters 进 and 党 in the name form 民进党 in their native-to-native communications between themselves when they discuss the Democratic Progressive Party in daily life. It seems that this point is conceded as accurate since no one is contesting it and this fact is brushed under the rug. It's an unwillingness to see a stark reality: the name 民进党 is not part of Taiwanese society's linguistic culture. My question to you is: once you recognize that Taiwan is not using the form 民进党 for this organization, then why are you fighting to include this information on an English language encyclopedia article about this organization? Since you don't seem to believe Taiwan is using the form 民进党, how can adding this information on the page be "Wikipedia-neutral" vis-a-vis the Taiwanese cultural group? Don't you see there's a bias against Taiwanese culture by adding the name 民进党 right next to 民進黨, as if 民进党 has some kind of status in Taiwan culture? There is no attempt to rebut this point. You all go on to talk about unrelated topics like an RfC that includes a provision for exceptions that you don't want to explore and various ideas about Singapore and the BBC. But don't distract yourself from the issue: Taiwan is not using the name 民进党 in their society as far as we know. Once that argument is established, and it does seem to be established since it's not challenged and I only found two articles with .tw urls that had the form 民进党 (both were obvious mainland China propaganda- see above), then what's left honestly? Have a heart. Taiwan's not using the name 民进党 within their society. When do we add foreign language material on English Wikipedia? When it's from the society in question, not when it's "useful" or "common" etc. The point is, it's not part of the Taiwan culture. If 民进党 is foreign language material not sourced from Taiwan, it's dictionary content or content for another language version of Wikipedia. There's no encyclopedia that includes extraneous foreign language material in articles about an area and its organizations, people etc. In the absence of evidence that Taiwanese native communication between Taiwanese natives ever uses the form 民进党, it gives an unbelievably undue prominence of placement to something from outside Taiwanese culture to add 民进党 on this page right next to the actual name used in Taiwan, 民進黨. Here's another related question no one wants to pay attention to: how many Taiwanese people can read 进 and 党 at all? Come on now. Stop trying to justify 民进党 with sources outside Tawian and start trying to justify it with sources FROM Taiwan (if that's possible). Wikipedia is not a dictionary of useful information about foreign language terms not used by an organization/locality. Mainland China, etc location articles that display traditional characters below simplified characters are correct to do so: traditional characters are a secondary part of those cultures- see Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Table of General Standard Chinese Characters. But there's no "Table of General Standard Chinese Characters" from Taiwan with the characters 进 and 党, especially with reference to 民進黨. WP:UNDUE prominence of placement to the non-Taiwanese name seems to be an obvious case for non-neutral material since we have to refer to Singapore and the BBC to wedge it onto this page. Again, of course there are other circumstances where Taiwan articles or Taiwan-mainland China articles can be extremely justified in showing a form that's a simplified one, but there has to be some base level of recognition and deference to what the facts of Taiwanese linguistic culture are. 民进党 is a non-Taiwanese name as far as we know. It's morally dangerous to not hide it unless we have evidence to the contrary. Keep in mind, I'm not some random troll out here- I'm the editor that didn't let Wiktionary and Wikipedia forget that Wade-Giles and Tongyong Pinyin names are (or in some cases were) being used in English despite silly attempts to railroad them totally out of memory and mind as if English has to ignore its own history for some reason. Be fair to Taiwanese culture and remember this is an English encyclopedia article about a Taiwanese topic where no evidence of the name 民进党 from Taiwan culture is even being attempted to be presented. What if this was your culture, your heritage? At the base level: just because someone else uses something doesn't mean you do. I'm not talking about Singapore, I'm talking about Taiwan. Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- @MarkH21: How do you respond to my claim that no one in Taiwan is yet shown to be using the name 民进党 in Taiwanese native - to - Taiwanese native communication in their native language? If you had to focus on that issue alone and not the other factors you think are in your favor, what do you do? There's bias here people, and it's not right. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- You’ve repeated this dozens and dozens of times here and have ignored responses to it. Local usage is not the sole determining factor in an article, and it’s POV to solely focus on local usage.
This is the absolute last time I will repeat this – stop repeating yourself at everyone. You've made your argument and are now bludgeoning this discussion. — MarkH21talk 14:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)It's a straw man to continue to focus solely on local usage. Nobody is arguing that Taiwan uses the Simplified Chinese form nor that Simplified Chinese should be the preferred form. However, the arguments for the removal of the Simplified form ignore its usage by international Chinese-language & English-language sources, international accessibility, and the WP:NPOV and WP:AUDIENCE issues from focusing solely on local usage. The argument presented for removal so far are so general that it is a relitigation of the March 2020 RfC.
- Sorry if I have been misunderstood! Of course you are right that Simplified Chinese should not be the preferred form. I guess the meaning of the words "prominence of placement" has been misunderstood, or I did not communicate effectively. When I'm saying "prominence of placement" I'm not saying that anyone wants simplified characters to be first- I'm saying the presence of the form 民进党 on this page at all gives a prominence of placement to that form well beyond the station 民进党 enjoys in Taiwanese culture, which is near 0. It's not neutral to include something that is not shown to be used by the Taiwanese amongst themselves. Hopefully my meaning is clear now on the neutrality problem. It's too prominent to include a foreign language name that is not and was not part of Taiwanese culture on an English Wikipedia article. We don't include foreign language names not local to an area on their articles- it's undue. If you want that content, you go to that Wikipedia version or to a dictionary like Wiktionary. International usage of a non-English name not local to Taiwan is irrelevant to a Taiwanese-subject article in an English language encyclopedia article. Adding it implies that the form is equally (or secondarily) part of Taiwanese culture on some level, because the default conception of the reader is that all foreign language content on English Wikipedia articles is confined to the local names and usages (including historical) and doesn't go beyond that. That's why I'm saying WP:UNDUE prominence of placement. Traditional character names are clearly a secondary naming scheme in mainland China and perhaps other contexts based on historical and artistic usage, as well as the legal foundations Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Table of General Standard Characters. But in the Taiwan context, we didn't establish that the form 民进党 was secondary to 民進黨 in some way in Taiwanese culture. It's too prominent a placement to add a non-English language name that isn't demonstrated to be native Taiwanese at all in this article. Hopefully my position here makes more sense now. Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- You’ve repeated this dozens and dozens of times here and have ignored responses to it. Local usage is not the sole determining factor in an article, and it’s POV to solely focus on local usage.
Neutrality is disputed
Why does the article say this? What are the problems that should be fixed? Can I help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.104.65.132 (talk) 17:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm removing the neutrality tag. It appears to have been added by @Geographyinitiative: in relation to the above RfC on whether simplified versions should be included on the page. In any case, I don't think tagging the article as not neutral is the correct way resolve that dispute. DrIdiot (talk) 13:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Adding non-English linguistic symbols to a page that are not used by that organization for its internal communications strikes at the very heart of the neutrality question. I don't agree with your assessment that the page is neutral and am reversing it now. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Stop it. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:POV Just having some simplified characters doesn't mean the entire article is not written from a neutral point of view. DrIdiot (talk) 17:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Furthermore, there have been no new developments on the RfC for over a month, and there appears to be some consensus that the simplified characters can stay. DrIdiot (talk) 19:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your thoughts, but what do you know about Taiwanese culture that means you can arbitrarily determine the article is neutral even though it has a non-Taiwanese name on it? If you are Taiwanese, just provide evidence that the DPP is using the naming "民主进步党" in its communications with Taiwanese people, and my dispute is over. If you can't provide that evidence and if you have to resort to communications with non-Taiwanese locations or communication outside Taiwan, then what are you doing my friend? We don't add extra names not ever used in a given location or by a given person to an English language encyclopedia article. That's called "not neutral". Wiktionary is the dictionary you are looking for- this is an encyclopedia. Please don't treat me like a child by saying things like "Stop it." Again, as I said above, there can be no consensus to break Wikipedia neutrality policy- if you make that determination or someone else does, then I will take it to dispute resolution and very likely get a ruling in my favor. This is not a "stop it" kind of deal. I can't make any further comments here due to bludgeoning issues- if you want to discuss this further, please come to my talk page or show me somewhere else to chat about this. Thanks! Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC) (modified)
- I do not care about the simplified or not dispute, but the consensus is clear in the RfC. I am going to revert one more time, and if you revert again I will call an administrator. Feel free to get an administrator to rule on this yourself. DrIdiot (talk) 19:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- If the consensus is clear then close the discussion. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I do not care about the simplified or not dispute, but the consensus is clear in the RfC. I am going to revert one more time, and if you revert again I will call an administrator. Feel free to get an administrator to rule on this yourself. DrIdiot (talk) 19:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your thoughts, but what do you know about Taiwanese culture that means you can arbitrarily determine the article is neutral even though it has a non-Taiwanese name on it? If you are Taiwanese, just provide evidence that the DPP is using the naming "民主进步党" in its communications with Taiwanese people, and my dispute is over. If you can't provide that evidence and if you have to resort to communications with non-Taiwanese locations or communication outside Taiwan, then what are you doing my friend? We don't add extra names not ever used in a given location or by a given person to an English language encyclopedia article. That's called "not neutral". Wiktionary is the dictionary you are looking for- this is an encyclopedia. Please don't treat me like a child by saying things like "Stop it." Again, as I said above, there can be no consensus to break Wikipedia neutrality policy- if you make that determination or someone else does, then I will take it to dispute resolution and very likely get a ruling in my favor. This is not a "stop it" kind of deal. I can't make any further comments here due to bludgeoning issues- if you want to discuss this further, please come to my talk page or show me somewhere else to chat about this. Thanks! Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC) (modified)
@DrIdiot: I see that you are aware of the RfC above. From my vantage, this seems to unfortunately be yet more linguistic-related disruption from GI. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 23:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is a "disruption" in some sense, but I think I'm correcting the disruption in favor of WP:NEUTRALITY, not creating the disruption. I am a great editor who is doing amazing work on China-Taiwan etc. I also think CaradhrasAiguo has an interesting and important perspective that needs to be included. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I did not dispute that your Sinosphere area contributions have been valuable in general, please do not mention that here. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Whoever started the RfC never actually included the tag, so there's nothing to be done to close it. In any case, you can do it yourself. But as promised, I'll reach out to an admin to resolve this. DrIdiot (talk) 02:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @DrIdiot: The RfC tag was there while the RfC was running. RfC tags are automatically removed by a bot once 30 days has elapsed, so there is no RfC tag there anymore. — MarkH21talk 02:33, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @MarkH21: Thanks -- in any case I take it there's no need to explicitly close the discussion? Consensus seems very clear. DrIdiot (talk) 02:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @DrIdiot: RfCs do not need to be closed, particularly since the consensus is pretty clear. Per WP:RFCCLOSE:
If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable.
It seems that it would help to now have it closed, since Geographyinitiative has edit-warred with you to keep a POV tag based on their own interpretation of the RfC; a request has been posted at WP:RFCC. — MarkH21talk 02:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- @DrIdiot: RfCs do not need to be closed, particularly since the consensus is pretty clear. Per WP:RFCCLOSE:
- @MarkH21: Thanks -- in any case I take it there's no need to explicitly close the discussion? Consensus seems very clear. DrIdiot (talk) 02:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, good. Now I am saying that the consensus that was reached is in conflict with Wikipedia Neutrality policy. Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re-litigating a closed RfC on the same grounds is not going to work; the other participants did not accept the notion that the simplified characters' inclusion violates NPOV. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- The higher-level Wikipedians have not been engaged in the process here. I know you want the character 进 on this page, but it's not from Taiwan. Including the form with this character is outside the scope of this article. There's no re-litigation- this will be the first time that this particular issue is brought up for the 10 year upper-level Wikipedians and I feel they will agree with me and not agree with this consensus. Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re-litigating a closed RfC on the same grounds is not going to work; the other participants did not accept the notion that the simplified characters' inclusion violates NPOV. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, good. Now I am saying that the consensus that was reached is in conflict with Wikipedia Neutrality policy. Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Anti-communism
I propose to remove the claim that DPP has historically been anti-communist. The DPP is pro-Taiwan identity, which puts them at odds with the CPP, but does not make them anti-communist. DrIdiot (talk) 13:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Communism in Taiwan usually means CPP, so I don't think it's very inappropriate to describe the Democratic Progressive Party as anti-communist.--Storm598 (talk) 14:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Except when we’re talking about Taiwanese communists... Most of whom confusingly are also anti-CCP... Whats our sourcing for the claim? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'll second the request for a source, and note that the DPP would (likely) oppose any Chinese political party that pursued unification, whether it was communist or not. It just so happens the only (real) party in China, is communist. Conversely, the DPP does not actively oppose domestic communists who do not advocate for unification. DrIdiot (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)