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==Albanian name== |
==Albanian name== |
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I added the albanian name off Zalongo dance and of Soul. The article is partial, representing greek nationalist position and , arguing that Souliotes were greek. The user "dr. k." reverted twice my editing and called me disruptive thretening with "sanctions". An event protagonized by albanian speaking population is presented as only greek . And "dr. k" reverts my adds and call me disruptive only because I gave the albanian names. I am sad with this censorship granted by wikipedia [[User:Dimitrihector|Dimitrihector]] ([[User talk:Dimitrihector|talk]]) 21:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC) |
I added the albanian name off Zalongo dance and of Soul. The article is partial, representing greek nationalist position and , arguing that Souliotes were greek. The user "dr. k." reverted twice my editing and called me disruptive thretening with "sanctions". An event protagonized by albanian speaking population is presented as only greek . And "dr. k" reverts my adds and call me disruptive only because I gave the albanian names. I am sad with this censorship granted by wikipedia [[User:Dimitrihector|Dimitrihector]] ([[User talk:Dimitrihector|talk]]) 21:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:For your information, Vallja e Zallongut is already mentioned on the Lead section and it is well sourced. I am sorry but I fail to see your point in adding the translated name twice. --[[User:SilentResident|👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk ✉️]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs 📝]])</sup> 17:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:47, 12 August 2018
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On 7 July 2015, Dance of Zalongo was linked from The New York Times, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history. |
Correcting the Article
I am correcting parts of the article that seems to have been added only for POV pushing reasons. It is a well known fact that the Catastrophe of Souli and especially the Dance of Zalongo are important events in Greek History. For decades (actually from 19th century) the dance of Zalongo is celebrated through out Greece. Every Greek school-kid have seen in his schools years at lest one performance of the dance and at list one school play dramatizing the mass suicide. Obviously it is a well known event of modern Greek history.
Since when it became "important part of Albanian history"? Since when the Albanians celebrate the Zalongo Dance? I imagine that through out the Schools of Albania, school kids celebrate the heroic fight of the Souliot women against the Albanian forces of (another Albanian)Ali Pasha. It is quite impossible to believe!
However the Albanian song is a completely different thing. I agree that a reference for it should remain in the article. Although I don't believe that it was any popular at all. Unfortunately the only reference seems to be a book from 1962. It must have some more information were it was actually sang. If it came out to be actually popular (for at list some period) then we should re-add the lyrics (the lyrics by the way seem more like a poem and less than a song.I have moved the lyrics to the source)
Seleukosa (talk) 23:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a contest on songs which were more or less popular than others. The Albanian song (and dance) is part of the Albanian folklore and properly referenced. It is based on a good secondary source (Zihni Sako is a well-known folklorist) and properly reflected in the article. I take it that you speak Albanian since you think that it looks like a poem, and not a song. Can you please confirm? I myself, if I see verses wouldn't know if they can be sang or not. --Sulmues (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC) To say it all, I am surprized that there were Greek songs on a tragedy that occurred to the Albanian people of Suli, but I guess that came from their hellenization given their participation in the Greek War of Independence. --Sulmues (talk) 23:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- You didn't seem to understand what the problem is. It is not if the song was popular ( obviously wasn't) but if the Dance of Zalongo has any significant importance in the Albanian history. (Obviously not.) The way the article was written, suggested that as Greeks celebrated the Souliotes the same happened in Albania in the same extent. Not at all!!As for the Albanian song the reference remained but in it proper dimension. And by the way the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and they fought against the Ottoman Albanian forces! You migth considered them Albanians but they didn't consider themselves! It is actually surprising that a song even existed in Albania celebrating the Souliotes who were excellent in destroying the Albanian forces!!Seleukosa (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted most of Seleukosa's changes. I see no reason to relegate the Albanian text into a footnote while citing the Greek text in full – no matter how they compare in terms of relative popularity in their respective countries, they seem both eminently interesting to me. I also very strongly object against the addition of "Although the army of Ali Pasha which destroyed Souli was mainly Albanian…". This "although" insinuates a heavy POV message: "people of the same nation cannot go to war with each other; therefore, if A was at war with B, and B was a member of nation X, then A cannot naturally be part of the history of X". This thought is (a) unsourced original research, and (b), frankly, naive in the extreme.
Next thing, I will bring back elements of the old intro from a few months back. The term "dance of Zalongo" still refers primarily not to any of these popular dance songs (Greek, Albanian or otherwise), but to the legendary event itself, the dance supposedly performed by the women on the cliff in that situation. The article currently glosses over this, and the idea to factor this history aspect out into "catastrophy of Zalongo" seems not to have stuck, and I don't believe it was in line with common usage anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- I do agree that the Albanian song has an interest but yet we don't know anything about it since the source only cites a book and not the exact reference.(obviously it was not popular or even known. The same happens with many folk Greek songs who are only known to researchers). I still don't agree that the incident is part of the Albanian history in such a way that it should appear in the opening paragraph. Why it is? Because an Albanian force took part in the Souliote wars? Or because the Souliotes are considered Albanians? Well the fact is that despite their possible initial origin the Souliotes/Arvanites thought themselves as Greeks, fought as Greeks and incorporate themselves in the Greek nation. In other articles the "self-determination" is enough even for the creation of nations but not for the Souliotes/Arvanites.)As for the paragraph that FutPer find it heavily Pov, he didn't grasp the meaning. This might be my fault. What I meant was that although the Albanian force was the one that destroyed Souli (and from them the Souliot women tried to escape) the incident had an impact on the them also. It had nothing to do with nationalities but with the fact that the (mainly)Albanian force of Ali Pasha was mortal enemy with the Souliotes. It is not common to have a song written for your enemy. To assume that that paragraph had anything to do with nationalities is frankly, naive in the extreme. To Summarise a)I agree that the song should remain. It is actually interesting although I would like to see more information about it. b) I don't agree that this incident is of any importance for the Albanian history except for the fact that the mainly Albanian force of Ali Pasha participate in the fight.I dont think that anyone can actually believe that the incident was an "Albanian tragedy"(sic) that user Sulmuel suggested above, but since it had an impact in Albania it should be mention in the paragraph about the song.Seleukosa (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- You are still caught in the same error: "A and B were at war with each other, A belonged to nation X, therefore B cannot belong to nation X". The syllogism is wrong because it presupposes: "people of the same nation do not go to war against each other". Which is, patently, ridiculously, wrong, and in the fluid situation of Balkan ethnic identities in the early 19th century it is even more wrong than at all other times. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- I am not saying at all the above Futer! Please do not add your explanation in my words! What I said was only about making a song for your mortal enemy. Regardless nationalities! Of course people of the same nation keep going on war with each others!! Constantly. But that is not the case with the Souliote/Ali Pasha war, since the Souliotes did not consider themselves Albanians!Seleukosa (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- I do agree that the Albanian song has an interest but yet we don't know anything about it since the source only cites a book and not the exact reference.(obviously it was not popular or even known. The same happens with many folk Greek songs who are only known to researchers). I still don't agree that the incident is part of the Albanian history in such a way that it should appear in the opening paragraph. Why it is? Because an Albanian force took part in the Souliote wars? Or because the Souliotes are considered Albanians? Well the fact is that despite their possible initial origin the Souliotes/Arvanites thought themselves as Greeks, fought as Greeks and incorporate themselves in the Greek nation. In other articles the "self-determination" is enough even for the creation of nations but not for the Souliotes/Arvanites.)As for the paragraph that FutPer find it heavily Pov, he didn't grasp the meaning. This might be my fault. What I meant was that although the Albanian force was the one that destroyed Souli (and from them the Souliot women tried to escape) the incident had an impact on the them also. It had nothing to do with nationalities but with the fact that the (mainly)Albanian force of Ali Pasha was mortal enemy with the Souliotes. It is not common to have a song written for your enemy. To assume that that paragraph had anything to do with nationalities is frankly, naive in the extreme. To Summarise a)I agree that the song should remain. It is actually interesting although I would like to see more information about it. b) I don't agree that this incident is of any importance for the Albanian history except for the fact that the mainly Albanian force of Ali Pasha participate in the fight.I dont think that anyone can actually believe that the incident was an "Albanian tragedy"(sic) that user Sulmuel suggested above, but since it had an impact in Albania it should be mention in the paragraph about the song.Seleukosa (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Tagged reference
I have also tagged the ref entry currently given as:
- "JSTOR (Organization) (1954). Journal of the International Folk Music Council, Volumes 6-10. Published with the assistance of the International Music Council, under the auspices of United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation for the International Folk Music Council by W. Heffer, 1954."
When, o when, will people learn that to cite from a journal you need to cite the author, title, pages, and volume of the specific article, not just the name of the journal (and certainly not "JSTOR", which is neither an author nor even a publisher, but a mere archiving service)? When somebody has please fixed this, the related footnotes will need fixing too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Which source are you referring to Seleukosa? If you are referring to the Sako one, it dates 1962. Sako had studied Filology in Athens, Greece, then he taught Albanian in Moscow, USSR, after which he returned and was the head of the Folklore Institute in the Academy of Sciences of Albania. He has lots of monographies and a good article in the Albanian WP. Could you please AGF a little more? --Sulmues (talk) 11:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I made another edit, because it seems like the Dance of Zalong is the typical syrtos dance, which it wasn't. The dance is a very old one and danced only in Suli and in the Zalong mountain according to folklorist and writer Mihallaq Qilleri Marko Boçari Suloiti, Miti dhe e Verteta. --Sulmues (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Salmuel I don't think that this source is valid. It is almost impossible to verify if this has any historical value behind it. One of the sources of the article(Folk Dancing for Students and Teachers) actually names the dance as syrtos. However I don't believe that anyone actually can tell what was the dance in an almost legendary event. I think it is better to remove it all together.Seleukosa (talk) 12:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, we have contrasting sources. I saw your removal of Qilleri [1]. Since it's going to be again whether the Dance of Zalongo was Greek (syrtos), vs Albanian (Parga and Suli back then were inhabited by Albanians), better leave it without going deeper in the kind of dance. Fine. --Sulmues (talk) 12:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Parga and Souli were never "inhabitant by Albanians". Praga is a known Greek town and during the Ottoman era was mainly inhabited by Greeks. Souli was an area with Arvanite population. Arvanite/Souliotes may have been initialy of Albanian origin but they heavily intermix with local Greeks and were completely Hellenized. As we have said before, Arvanite/Souliotes self-determined as Greeks and you can not call them Albanians.Seleukosa (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- 1. Suliots was ethnic albanian Chams, not Arvanit, Arvanit means the greek-orthodox albanians in midle of grece and on the islands. 2. Isent true that the suliots was completly hellenized, watch the Albanian-Greek dictionary from Marko Boqari,3. Parga was inhabitant by albanians too, type only "parga albanians" in google/books and in 1 min. u will find the answer. The ethnical border in the history has not the same national border today.greets--80.218.232.7 (talk) 21:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- Parga and Souli were never "inhabitant by Albanians". Praga is a known Greek town and during the Ottoman era was mainly inhabited by Greeks. Souli was an area with Arvanite population. Arvanite/Souliotes may have been initialy of Albanian origin but they heavily intermix with local Greeks and were completely Hellenized. As we have said before, Arvanite/Souliotes self-determined as Greeks and you can not call them Albanians.Seleukosa (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
It would be Parga, not Praga. Seleukosa. There are several sources that refer to Arvanites and Souliotes as Albanians. You might want to get familiar with the respective articles. --Sulmues (talk) 12:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
OR
The Albanian version of the song appears to be totally wp:OR. Apart from the fact that the reference is imposible to verify [[2]], both Despo and Mosko (as the lyrics mention them) didn't die at Zalongo, thus this song can't have earned the title "Song/Dance of Zalongo".Alexikoua (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Illiad spoke about people talking to the gods and has many historical inaccuracies.This doesn't make it an wp:OR.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:50, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
You need to address the issues above. For the record this addition is wp:OR, there isn't such a song in the supposed reference (you might have seen the vn tag which was placed earlier). Even if such lyrics exist the title of the song can't be 'Dance of Zalongo' because it describes a diferrent event.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
As done in the Cham Albanians page added in the correct Dance of Zalongo song in Albanian (from Rrapaj folksongs book) and its all sourced. If anyone wants the page from the book for further info, i can send a scanned page to them via email (its in Albanian though) and send me a message on either my English or Albanian talk page so i can so. The previous Albanian song in this article was about the Souliotes but regarding a different incident at the village of Riniassa or Rizo as its known today when some Souliotes women where cornered by Ali's troops. So it was not applicable here. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 12:25, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Albanian name
I added the albanian name off Zalongo dance and of Soul. The article is partial, representing greek nationalist position and , arguing that Souliotes were greek. The user "dr. k." reverted twice my editing and called me disruptive thretening with "sanctions". An event protagonized by albanian speaking population is presented as only greek . And "dr. k" reverts my adds and call me disruptive only because I gave the albanian names. I am sad with this censorship granted by wikipedia Dimitrihector (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- For your information, Vallja e Zallongut is already mentioned on the Lead section and it is well sourced. I am sorry but I fail to see your point in adding the translated name twice. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 17:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)