adding archive box, removing duplicates of inactive discussions which are preserved in Talk:CounterPunch/Archive 1 |
→"Criticism": new section |
||
Line 48: | Line 48: | ||
::Steven Plaut has a long record of unfounded defamation of critics of Israel. An Israeli court has held his comments on one critic to be libellous. His views on third parties should be treated with extreme caution; they are in no way authoritative. The site "Think-Israel" is indeed a blog; it says of itself "Think of this site as a blog site for all of you who love Israel"[http://www.think-israel.org/index.html] It is also an extremmist hate site, which argues that "extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare" The article cited states that the left in America is "filled with treasonous lunatics and Hate-America neurotics, whose politics reflect little more than an infantile anger at Mommy and Daddy"; it is an unbalanced rant that has no place in Wikipedia, and certainly cannot be considered an acceptable source for the defamatory descriptions added to the article. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]]</span> 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC) |
::Steven Plaut has a long record of unfounded defamation of critics of Israel. An Israeli court has held his comments on one critic to be libellous. His views on third parties should be treated with extreme caution; they are in no way authoritative. The site "Think-Israel" is indeed a blog; it says of itself "Think of this site as a blog site for all of you who love Israel"[http://www.think-israel.org/index.html] It is also an extremmist hate site, which argues that "extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare" The article cited states that the left in America is "filled with treasonous lunatics and Hate-America neurotics, whose politics reflect little more than an infantile anger at Mommy and Daddy"; it is an unbalanced rant that has no place in Wikipedia, and certainly cannot be considered an acceptable source for the defamatory descriptions added to the article. <span style="font-family: Papyrus">[[User:RolandR|RolandR]]</span> 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC) |
||
== "Criticism" == |
|||
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CounterPunch&action=historysubmit&diff=402582410&oldid=402581736 This] should stay deleted because |
|||
# is an op-ed from he American Jewish Committee's associate director of communications |
|||
# repeats an accusation by [[Steven Plaut]] that saw him lose a libel case; noting this and claiming (unsourced) that others said the same doesn't make it any better |
|||
# Greenstein and Rance's opinion is sourced to [http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Politics/Atzmonreply.html this] which is not obviously a reliable source, and their opinion is not obviously notable anyway |
|||
# Sourced to [http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/articles/43907/Whyleftwinganti-ZionismisantisemitismByDanielGreenfield this oped] originally in a newspaper, republished by the "Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism". |
|||
Most of it isn't really ''criticism'' anyway, so much as a repetition of smears by political opponents of CounterPunch's contributors. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 21:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:49, 15 December 2010
Archive 1 (April 2005—Nov 2007) |
The Left-Wing Bias of this article
Given that the Paul Craig Wilson and William Lind are described as "paleoconservative" and Steven Plaut is described as a "right-wing commentator," why is there no mention anywhere about the radical left-wing ideologies of nearly all the other commentators from this newsletter? Cynthia McKinney, Fidel Castro, Edward Said, Noam Chomsky, Alexander Cockburn, Ralph Nader and Ward Churchill are notorious for their radical left-wing views. Can't we call a spade a spade here, instead of singling out one side, labeling them, and giving the other side a free pass? --Gerkinstock (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- agreed. a lot of the time conservatives are described in frank terms while radical lefties are indeed given a free pass. Im going in and evening out any bias that I find in this article, if thats okay with you. Smith Jones (talk) 03:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Criticism
The "Criticism" section reads:
- CounterPunch has also been criticized for publishing articles by authors such as Alan Cabal and Daniel A. McGowan who have defended the pro-Hitler perspective of Holocaust deniers such as Ernest Zundel. Zundel is the author of "The Hitler We Loved and Why", and Cabal's "sympathetic"[8] article in CounterPunch on holocaust denier Ernst Zündel titled "Star Chamber Redux: the Prosecution of Zundel", attracted controversy from the media, internet forums and blogs, and the Jeff Rense radio show,[9] In a March 2004 letter to the Adelaide Institute, Zundel referred to Cabal's article as "An amazing break-through".[10][11]
However, if you follow the link to the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies, it says:
- Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel (see Canada, above) was the subject of a sympathetic article in the February 1-15 , 2004 edition of the political newsletter CounterPunch, edited by pundits Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair. The article, by Alan Cabal, praised Zundel as a “painter and pacifist” who is being “persecuted” by the U.S. and Canadian governments. Cabal described Zundel as “the most widely recognized figure in the growing number of historians, both amateur and academic, questioning the veracity of orthodox accounts of the events which took place in the Nazi concentration camps during World War II ... The ‘Holocaust Industry’, as Norman Finkelstein dubbed it, behaves in every way like a fanatical cult. The persecution of Ernst Zundel has been and continues to be both relentless and utterly ruthless.” Cabal characterized the deportation proceedings against Zundel as “an affront to justice and public decency that goes far beyond anything that Mr. Zundel has to say.”
Notice that there is no citation for McGowan. The source does not say that Cabal "defended the pro-Hitler perspective of Holocaust deniers". Furthermore, the criticism in the Wyman Institute report is unfounded. Cabal's article can be found here: http://www.historiansbehindbars.com/amspress.html which is a website apparently run by David Irving and Ernst Zundel. The site contains copies of articles by George F. Will and many other writers as well as editorials from major Canadian newspapers all opposed to the legal actions taken against Zundel. Their concern is that Zundel's rights to freedom of speech and due process have been violated. Whether or not this accusation is correct, it does not put these writers into the holocaust-denial camp.
The footnote for the the Jeff Rense radio show cites the Institute for Historical Review. All it states is that Rense mentioned the Cabal article on his show, along with the Globe and Mail. It's irrelevant. There has been considerable discussion of this issue here.
However, any attempt to link CounterPunch to holocaust denial is totally unfounded and this section should be deleted. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Deleted those sentences, since no WP:RS evidence for either the article being "pro-Hitler" (yeah right, that's plausible for a leftwing publication like counterpunch) or the article creating controversy and being criticised. Also WP:SYNTHESIS issues based on non-reliable sources reacting. Rd232 talk 19:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Deleted a sentence on Alan Cabal (diff) which mischaracterised the source (they don't criticise counterpunch; they don't even actually criticise Cabal). Read what the source actually says! Also it's only one paragraph in the source.Rd232 talk 14:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Expunging Alan Cable (Alan Cabal)
It seems that Alan Cable is being summarily removed from a number of articles. New York Press, Gonzo Journalism, High Times, CounterPunch and perhaps others. I will leave it in your hands. Unomi (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps if you asked the person that did it, Unomi (and stopped hounding my edits) you might find out. Alan Cabals article has been deleted due to a lack of notability, so my main aim was in removing red links to an article which is unlikely to be recreated. What I discovered were mostly links that had been added to add credence to his notability, but without an article or any evidence of notability the whole references were occasionally unneeded. For example, as AC is not notable, there is no reason for him to be included as a notable contributor. This is after a length deletion discussion and review, and is not at all "summarily". See WP:AGF Verbal chat 07:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I am not hounding your edits, I happened to 'watch' the New York Press article while involved in the Alan cable AfD. The removal of the bare mention of Alan Cable is indeed summarily as it certainly was not put to the talk page where those that might be more acquainted with the material could make the judgment call. Unomi (talk) 08:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in arguing, after all you know me, that's not my style. The name attached to the redlinks removed was "Alan Cabal". I am familiar with the topic and made the justifiable decision to remove the red links, and in some cases remove the mention altogether. Each of these is justifiable and open to discussion on the appropriate article talk page. If you want "Alan Cabal" restored (rather that Alan cable) then please justify it per WP:BRD, leaving out the broad accusations per WP:AGF, on the appropriate page. I removed the name from this article as he was listed as a notable contributor without WP:RS, and the AfD and DRV found that he wasn't notable. Verbal chat 09:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- That seems like a sufficient argument in general. If Unomi wants to argue inclusion in particular articles, do so in each specific case - but note the need to establish relevance using secondary WP:RS when the community has agreed he's not notable enough for his own article. Rd232 talk 12:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I can't speak to the veracity of Cabals inclusion into other articles but he deserves no mention whatsoever at Gonzo Journalism and will be removed on sight from that article. His name insertion there was solely to manufacture evidence of his notability for his own article. L0b0t (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- The reasons for deleting Alan Cabal from the article can be found in the previous section above. The Four Deuces (talk) 10:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- I can't speak to the veracity of Cabals inclusion into other articles but he deserves no mention whatsoever at Gonzo Journalism and will be removed on sight from that article. His name insertion there was solely to manufacture evidence of his notability for his own article. L0b0t (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- That seems like a sufficient argument in general. If Unomi wants to argue inclusion in particular articles, do so in each specific case - but note the need to establish relevance using secondary WP:RS when the community has agreed he's not notable enough for his own article. Rd232 talk 12:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in arguing, after all you know me, that's not my style. The name attached to the redlinks removed was "Alan Cabal". I am familiar with the topic and made the justifiable decision to remove the red links, and in some cases remove the mention altogether. Each of these is justifiable and open to discussion on the appropriate article talk page. If you want "Alan Cabal" restored (rather that Alan cable) then please justify it per WP:BRD, leaving out the broad accusations per WP:AGF, on the appropriate page. I removed the name from this article as he was listed as a notable contributor without WP:RS, and the AfD and DRV found that he wasn't notable. Verbal chat 09:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I am not hounding your edits, I happened to 'watch' the New York Press article while involved in the Alan cable AfD. The removal of the bare mention of Alan Cable is indeed summarily as it certainly was not put to the talk page where those that might be more acquainted with the material could make the judgment call. Unomi (talk) 08:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Point: It now being a different subject than the individual's "notability", I think Unomi is discussing the removal of the person as if he never existed, and that runs contrary to everything wiki stands for. Changing the redlinks to non-links is certainly arguable, but removing the name itself seems a bit of a stretch. We all recognize that throughout wikipedia, nearly every article onalmost any subject might well include a name or two or contributory individuals that do not themselves have wiki articles. That is the proper part of creating balanced and truly encyclopedic articles. In this case, it is easily WP:Verified that Cabal wrote for CounterPubnch and New York Press, even if AfD's determined he did not meet notability requirements for a seperate article. His name being in those articles, or others in which made more than a passing contribution, meets the most basic guidelines for inclusion: WP:V. And though he may never have an article about his life on Wiki, the removal of every mention of his name seems to be taking his very existance a bit too far. Or am I just crazy? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 18:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- I would guess that CounterPunch has had hundreds of people writing for it during its history. Limiting those listed in the article to those that are demonstrably notable seems very sensible. If at some point consensus is that he is sufficiently notable, listing him would be fair enough.--Michig (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
There was no blanket removal ("as if he never existed"), and not even all of my very small number of edits removed his name in all cases. There is no need for this lack of good faith and the ridiculous accusations. Consensus for inclusion?exclusion in each case should be made on the associated talk page, and anyone can revert me and give their reasons per WP:BRD. In this case the removal seems to have been supported. I'm more than willing to accept an apology from the two editors that have made false claims here. Verbal chat 10:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Is CounterPunch a RS?
Is CounterPunch considered a reliable source for WP? If a CounterPunch article makes accusations against other people, can that accusation be aired as reliable? Just wondering. Stellarkid (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- the articles at counterpunch can be treated as opinion pieces attributable to the author. If the author is a reliable source then the article is a reliable source. nableezy - 23:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanx for your response. The article in question is not from a named author but something/one called "CounterPunch Wire." ? Stellarkid (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
- In that case I would just attribute it to Counterpunch itself, but would not use it as source for a statement of fact (and I am a regular counterpunch reader. I do find them to be reliable but it just isnt worth the hassle of using it as a source) nableezy - 19:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Steven Plaut and Faith Freedom International
Lately, RolandR has been reverting my additions to the criticism section of this article on the grounds that the citations are from "blogs," and therefore contravene Wikipedia's verifiability standard, even though these "blogs" aren't blogs at all, they are electronic articles published in authoritative websites that have been seen by millions of people and have had the legitimacy of their authority affirmed by notable people and scholars. So unless you (RolandR) have proof that the citations I am citing are from blogs or unverifiable/illegitimate sources, stop removing my citations or I will take this dispute with you to the Wikipedian authorities and accuse you of petty political censorship.77.103.8.120 (talk) 17:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- I came here via your posting on a WP:3O. We ask that you attempt to work out disputes on the articles talk page before listing it there. Also, please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors. meamemg (talk) 18:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- Steven Plaut has a long record of unfounded defamation of critics of Israel. An Israeli court has held his comments on one critic to be libellous. His views on third parties should be treated with extreme caution; they are in no way authoritative. The site "Think-Israel" is indeed a blog; it says of itself "Think of this site as a blog site for all of you who love Israel"[1] It is also an extremmist hate site, which argues that "extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare" The article cited states that the left in America is "filled with treasonous lunatics and Hate-America neurotics, whose politics reflect little more than an infantile anger at Mommy and Daddy"; it is an unbalanced rant that has no place in Wikipedia, and certainly cannot be considered an acceptable source for the defamatory descriptions added to the article. RolandR 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
"Criticism"
This should stay deleted because
- is an op-ed from he American Jewish Committee's associate director of communications
- repeats an accusation by Steven Plaut that saw him lose a libel case; noting this and claiming (unsourced) that others said the same doesn't make it any better
- Greenstein and Rance's opinion is sourced to this which is not obviously a reliable source, and their opinion is not obviously notable anyway
- Sourced to this oped originally in a newspaper, republished by the "Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism".
Most of it isn't really criticism anyway, so much as a repetition of smears by political opponents of CounterPunch's contributors. Rd232 talk 21:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC)