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We need to work out how to factor some material between the historical sections here and the article [[Anarchism in Spain]]. They cover a lot of the same territory; in general, we will want the main narrative in one place and a link and a summary in the other. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC) |
We need to work out how to factor some material between the historical sections here and the article [[Anarchism in Spain]]. They cover a lot of the same territory; in general, we will want the main narrative in one place and a link and a summary in the other. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:It seems to make more sense to put a "main article" template over though, especially because that article isn't cited at all, and this one will be cite very well;) Hmmm, citing that article could be a big project in and of itself. [[User:Murderbike|Murderbike]] ([[User talk:Murderbike|talk]]) 02:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC) |
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inspired the fascist flag?
"It inspired the flag of Fascist Falange."
I know they're both red and black, but "inspired"? That would imply idelogical similarities between the anarchists and fascists, a silly proposition at best. --Tothebarricades.tk 00:40, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Needs cleanup.
The article is grammatically incorrect and needs cleanup to make it easier to read.FET 02:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sentence makes no sense
In the First Congress of the CNT (taken place in 1911, year in which the union received its name officially) a general strike, reason for the one was already summoned which the union was declared illegal up to 1914.
This sentence makes no sense, I am not even sure what it is supposed to mean. Can someone correct it please?
UnHoly 21:32, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Trade union or federation?
Is CNT a trade union, like the article currently states, or is it actually a federation of more or less independent regional and sectoral trade unions? / Alarm 13:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Final Paragraph
It is interesting to note that many authoritarian left wing and right wing movements have made a point of appropriating the colors of anarcho-syndicalists in particular in order to try to lessen or re-direct their popularity and impact at crucial times in history.
Is there any sort of evidence for this at all? It seems to me that it's an attempt to boost the supposed significance of this group by suggesting groups such as the Nazis and Soviets were somehow terrified of it - which is, of course, ridiculously POV.
--Cruci 17:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The Sandinistas appropriated it, but I thought they were the only ones. -- 69.243.54.110 01:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Infobox
I added the infobox, but I don't have current info about the secretary general, or membership. I also moved the CNT-FAI flag into the box - is that the best image, or should it be just the CNT logo?--Bookandcoffee 17:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- The flag does it. Or does CNT-FAI have another logo? I should add the SAC flag to Sveriges Arbetares Centralorganisation, come to think of it. Jobjörn 18:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The secretary general is Rafael Corrales Valverde http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Corrales
Notes and refs
I've never seen a Notes section like the one in this article. I think it should changed to not only be more editor-friendly, but consistent with other wikipedia articles. If nobody has a problem with it, I'll go ahead and do it. Murderbike (talk) 22:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Not to defend this implementation, but I have found a separate footnotes/references section useful in a manner similar to the use in academic articles e.g. body of text: "Dave was not actually a cat, but a chihuahua" footnote: "For an account of allegations surrounding Dave's felinity, see Obrador, 1994" reference: "Obrador, Consuela, "Anthropomorphic Felines" in Journal of Furry Thought, vol.4 issue 3 pages 43-45". This is what this article was aiming for, I think, though the refs here are arguably unreliable. For a proper implementation of this system, see here. Skomorokh incite 00:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't think it's not useful, just having never seen it, it through me. I haven't checked WP:MOS, though I assume it it stayed in William Gibson, it's probably acceptable, eh? As to the rest, I think a lot of the places that now have OR tags, could maybe just get FACT tags, as they seem fairly obvious points, though some of them would have to be reworded. Sorry to not be specific though, I don't have much time. But well done on the other fixes. Murderbike (talk) 01:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Seeing you tagged the footnotes section, what do you suggest is changed about it? Murderbike (talk) 20:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- Basically, avoid self-references and addressing the reader. It should make factual claims, backed up by reliable sources, or in the case that it's simply a reference, be converted to <ref> format. Skomorokh incite 05:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, they mostly seem to just be links to outside info on the CNT website, links to images, or "further reading" type of material. I don't know that much of it really even deserves to stay in at all. Murderbike (talk) 05:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- Basically, avoid self-references and addressing the reader. It should make factual claims, backed up by reliable sources, or in the case that it's simply a reference, be converted to <ref> format. Skomorokh incite 05:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- Seeing you tagged the footnotes section, what do you suggest is changed about it? Murderbike (talk) 20:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't think it's not useful, just having never seen it, it through me. I haven't checked WP:MOS, though I assume it it stayed in William Gibson, it's probably acceptable, eh? As to the rest, I think a lot of the places that now have OR tags, could maybe just get FACT tags, as they seem fairly obvious points, though some of them would have to be reworded. Sorry to not be specific though, I don't have much time. But well done on the other fixes. Murderbike (talk) 01:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Essay
Oh yeah, and do you think that the whole thing reads like an essay? Just certain parts? Murderbike (talk) 05:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- Essay might not be the best tag to use, but I think there is definitely a tone problem here - it reads as if it is a report by a single author drawing from primary sources. This is probably an issue concerning Wikipedia as a tertiary resource rather than secondary, but it is perhaps also due to differing style requirements on the Spanish Wikipedia compared to ours. The article needs recasting according to our writing style guidelines. Skomorokh incite 20:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- Do you see it as the same in the history section and the sections before describing how the union works? And is the "wikify" referring to something separate, or is it redundant with the other two? Murderbike (talk) 21:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
transcluded from Skomorokh's talk page
Hey, so I did a bit of work on this article over the holidays, lots of sourcing, changing a lot of awkwardly translated wording, etc. So I wanted to see if you'd be up for outlining in detail the problems you see with the article that warrant the tags at the top, so I can keep plugging away at it and try to get it up to Good Article status. Hope your break was good! Murderbike (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- It is good, and hopefully will continue to be so to the extent that I will be unable to comply with your request. Cleanup tags are just cries for attention (and possibly warning), and seeing as you're attending to the article, they are superfluous so I have removed them for now.
- Off the top of my head some things to consider would be integrating some of the sub-subsections and the blockquotes of the Organzation and function section (i.e. Plenary sessions), subsectioning the Civil War section (as a rule, no less than one and no more than three full-length paragraphs per subdivision) and integrating, removing or radically expanding the Noted members section. In most cases, the lists should be integrated (e.g. committees and secretaryships).
- I'd also question whether the Org section goes into too much (uncited) detail about the unions structure - undue weight might be a concern here. Given access to the Beevor/Fernandez/Martinez books the history section could very quickly be brought up to a Good article standard of citation - similar to the bulk of Anarchism in Cuba. And obviously, that Footnotes section needs to be overhauled completely. Good luck with it! Skomorokh incite 15:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Organizational section
On the whole, unlike Skomorokh, I think the lengthy organizational section is useful. True bottom-up organization like this is so unusual that I think a detailed description is informative. However:
- It will need to be cited.
- Can anyone clarify the following sentence: "Direct representatives of the craft and general unions attend the CNT Congress with agreements from previous assemblies, independently from the local and regional levels."
In particular, in "agreements from previous assemblies" is very confusing. What assemblies, precisely? Does "previous" just mean "smaller and held earlier in the process" or does it refer to assemblies from previous years? - Jmabel | Talk 19:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- this is actually an issue i've been meaning to get to. In the Roca Martinez article (see sources, it's a PDF), what appears to be the "craft" unions that are referred to in this translation, are referred to as "branch" unions. "To be a 'branch union', which is a union of workers in the same field of activity..." The article frequently refers to "Various Posts" branches as well, which seem to be random members that don't necessarily have a group of people in their workplace or trade that they are directly affiliated with (outside of the broader organization). I'll try to read it (again) more thoroughly today and see if this sentence can be cleared up. Murderbike (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- As well, I don't really understand referring to the National Confederation as the "Anarchosyndicalist" really makes sense, along with the diagram showing the structure listing "Anarchosyndicalist". Again quoting from Roca Martinez, "The unions in one place are linked through the Local Federation; the local federations through a Regional Confederation; the regional confederations through the National Confederation, which in turn is federated to the AIT..." I would change the header to National Confederation, and change the diagram, partly because we can cite it, and partly because I feel like the "Anarchosyndicalist" qualification may just be a glitch of translation. Murderbike (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed the header, does anyone know how to change the chart? Murderbike (talk) 09:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I think this addresses more clearly the original quote in question: "Almost all the unions are 'Various posts' sections. It is in these that decisions are made and that delegates are elected who then attend the regional plenary sessions. Here, all the union delegates from a region meet...Some unions, particularly the less active ones, usually send their resolutions - properly stamped by the branch - by fax to the Regional Committee or the the place that the Plenary session meets." (p.110) So, I THINK that the "previous" may just refer to "lower" in the confederal hierarchy. Murderbike (talk) 22:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- As well, I don't really understand referring to the National Confederation as the "Anarchosyndicalist" really makes sense, along with the diagram showing the structure listing "Anarchosyndicalist". Again quoting from Roca Martinez, "The unions in one place are linked through the Local Federation; the local federations through a Regional Confederation; the regional confederations through the National Confederation, which in turn is federated to the AIT..." I would change the header to National Confederation, and change the diagram, partly because we can cite it, and partly because I feel like the "Anarchosyndicalist" qualification may just be a glitch of translation. Murderbike (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- this is actually an issue i've been meaning to get to. In the Roca Martinez article (see sources, it's a PDF), what appears to be the "craft" unions that are referred to in this translation, are referred to as "branch" unions. "To be a 'branch union', which is a union of workers in the same field of activity..." The article frequently refers to "Various Posts" branches as well, which seem to be random members that don't necessarily have a group of people in their workplace or trade that they are directly affiliated with (outside of the broader organization). I'll try to read it (again) more thoroughly today and see if this sentence can be cleared up. Murderbike (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Regional Federations
I was thinking that maybe the map and list of all the regional federations could just be condensed into one item. The two things take up way more space than the actual text of the section, and I think the whole list of federations may be a little to weighty. Any thoughts? Murderbike (talk) 23:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe you can transform it into a smaller list (as some regions are the same as the geographic autonomous communities) this way:
- Andalusia
- Aragon-La Rioja
- Asturias-León
- Canary Islands
- Catalonia-Balearic Islands
- Central (Madrid, Castile and León and Castile-La Mancha minus León, Albacete and Burgos)
- Extremadura
- Galicia
- Levante (Valencian Community and Albacete)
- Murcia
- North (Basque Country, Cantabria, Navarre and Burgos)
Or maybe put it into prose.--Wafry (talk) 00:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- Alternatively, the image could be updated with the list converted to a key (in the cartographical sense). Given the coloration of the list, the section is in effect a separated map and key. Images are generally preferable to prose where illustration is concerned, I feel. See Spain#Languages for an example of a superior key/image combination of Spanish territory. Skomorokh incite 00:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, a combined image/list would be awesome. I don't really have any experience with that kind of thing though, anyone else? Murderbike (talk) 00:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Layout
Does anyone know a clean way to get a margin between the text and those three right-aligned tables? - Jmabel | Talk 06:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've just added adjustable borders to the first two, is that what you meant? Skomorokh incite 13:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Revista Polémica
I cleaned up a citation that I've now characterized as "A series of three articles about the Scala Case from the CNT point of view", but I'm not sure it really qualifies under our policy about reliable sources. This series of three articles is part of the Revista Polémica site. I know that they do put out an actual magazine, but it's not clear whether these articles by Jesús Martínez actually appeared in the magazine. He is a moderator on the site, so he isn't just a random person blogging there, but it's not clear how much that means (e.g. a Wikipedia administrator doesn't speak for Wikipedia editorially, just in process matters). Also, what exactly is Revista Polémica's relationship to the CNT? - Jmabel | Talk 07:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about RP, but I did find a source that referred to that case, though not by name. I added it to the text, so really, I don't know that the footnotes to the CNT's opinions about it are all that necessary, other than just providing links to opinions. Murderbike (talk) 09:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- As well this] book in Spanish talks about it, and I THINK it says that the explosion turned out to be a police infiltrator, but maybe your Spanish can make better sense of what's written, and use it as a better source than the RP site? Murderbike (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Massive list of posters
What do you think we should do with that massive list of pages full of posters that are currently in a footnote? Previously, it was just a bunch of basically blind URLs, all captioned as "here" (see Click here for why that is a bad idea). Now they are properly explained, but the result is a monster footnote. Is there any way conforming to MoS that we can give this a section of its own (maybe within external links) and still somehow use this to cite for the statement about their use of posters? - Jmabel | Talk 18:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- How about just changing it to this article, which is A) in English, and B) doesn't just SHOW posters, but talks a lot about them. Murderbike (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- No objection to that—go for it—but somewhere (probably in external links) we should keep links to the posters, which are really worth a look. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Done and done. Murderbike (talk) 09:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- No objection to that—go for it—but somewhere (probably in external links) we should keep links to the posters, which are really worth a look. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
"under the dictatorship"
I've added a bit to this section, though the mix of the new material and the old is a bit awkward at the moment. Does this article warrant an "under construction" tag at the top? Murderbike (talk) 23:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
CNT congresses
In the article, there is a reference to the "CNT 7th congress (in Granada)" but the table shows a 7th congress in Bilbao, and an 8th in Granada. Something is wrong, either the number, the place, or the table. - Jmabel | Talk 05:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- The Spanish version says VIII, not 7th, I fixed it. Murderbike (talk) 09:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Anarcosindicalismo básico
There are a lot of translated quotations from Anarcosindicalismo básico in the article, some of them translated rather poorly. They are attributed as Basic anarcho-syndicalism. Is there a published translation of this work? If so, we should quote the published translation. If not, and if we intend to keep this many quotations (and I think they are generally good) we should translate these passages more carefully and include the Spanish originals of passages in footnotes. In either case, we should (if at all possible) include page numbers in footnotes (using the Harvard-style citation we use elsewhere) and be clear about what edition we are quoting. - Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Similarly for the quotation from Joan Ferrer and any others originally in Spanish, Catalan, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 05:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like Basic Anarchosyndicalism is here, though it appears to be only parts of it, I haven't taken a good gander at it yet. Not sure about the other one, I'll look around. Murderbike (talk) 09:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- It looks like the Manuel Villar book comes in French, but I couldn't find it in English, and none of the others either. Murderbike (talk) 09:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- The PDF you posted had all quotes in the article but one. I've changed those I could.--Wafry (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Awesome, thanks! Murderbike (talk) 19:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wordings look much improved, but the citations still need to be brought in line. - Jmabel | Talk 20:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, for the Spanish-language Anarcosindicalismo básico: there seems to be an online PDF at [1], but there is no way to tell that the text corresponds to any particular edition. Worth linking? (This is mostly for the one quotation we've had to translate ourselves, which, judging by this copy, is not all that literal a translation, though accurate in spirit.) - Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Orwell
Similarly, it looks like Orwell is at least slightly misquoted, but I don't have the original at hand. - Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reliable source for first quote:[2]. Unreliable sources for second:[3] [4]. Skomorokh incite 23:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So many quotes
Ok, so I'm mainly asking this in the context of wanting to bring this article up to at least GA status, if not FA. Does it seem like all the huge quotes are a bit much, and should be worked into the text as much as possible? I'm thinking particularly of the Basic Anarchosyndicalism stuff, and the two largish quotes from Orwell (which unfortunately is not browseable on Google Books, maybe I'll see if the library has it). Murderbike (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- According to WP:QUOTE, quotes should only be included when using a unique phrase/term or when dealing with controversial issues. I doubt that many of the issues illustrated by quotations in this article are controversial. I propose that a quotation only be used here where its rhetorical impact, eloquence or precision make it clearly superior to a summary, or where a summary would somehow contravene neutrality, original research or verifiability policy. Skomorokh incite 23:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have to say: in this case, I favor keeping at least most of these quotations. They capture a tone that is relevant to the subject matter. - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm with Jmabel on this one -- quotes capture flavor; they're pictures in words. It looks fine from "Methods" on below; the only reason it looks bad (IMO) in the material prior to the "Methods" & "History" sections is because of the profusion of variant typographies -- bulleted lists, charts, pictures, lots and lots of wiki-subsections, and relatively little text. If that were cleaned up I think the quotes would appear more balanced. --Lquilter (talk) 07:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have to say: in this case, I favor keeping at least most of these quotations. They capture a tone that is relevant to the subject matter. - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
"Multitudinary"
"…multitudinary meetings…": an odd phrase. Does this simply mean "mass meetings" or something else? - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've never heard this term, in english or spanish. Murderbike (talk) 06:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe a mangling of "multitudinous"? --Lquilter (talk) 07:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
"Subventions"
"One year later, a group of CGT members left this union to be able to receive subventions…" Does "one year later" here mean in 1980 or 1990? Two different events had just been alluded to. Also "subventions" is vague (and, in English, rather obscure). Does it refer specifically to some kind of government subsidy, and if so precisely what? - Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I had never heard that word before, but I'm pretty sure what that's referring to is the money that the CNT has gotten from the government since the transition as compensation for all of its assets being confiscated by the Franco governement. I wouldn't really no what else to call it, "settlement" money, or something. Seems like it would have to get explained a bit more. Murderbike (talk) 06:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- A/ In 1989 CGT split from CNT, and in 1990 es:Solidaridad Obrera (España) split from CGT. B/ Here subventions meant subsidies (The same state subsidies refered to a paragraph before, i.e. economic help from the State to the Union). I hope it helps.--Wafry (talk) 17:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- OK, just to be sure, "subsidies" are definitely different than the money the CNT has received as compensation for the property it lost as a result of the Franco regime. Do you mean just money from the government that maybe all unions get? Murderbike (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- A/ In 1989 CGT split from CNT, and in 1990 es:Solidaridad Obrera (España) split from CGT. B/ Here subventions meant subsidies (The same state subsidies refered to a paragraph before, i.e. economic help from the State to the Union). I hope it helps.--Wafry (talk) 17:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
German-language article
We might want also to look at the corresponding (stubby) German-language article. I notice, for example, that its lead (which is really all there is to it) mentions the peak membership during the Spanish Civil War, probably worth doing; also, it appears to give a whole different set of references, probably worth a look. - Jmabel | Talk 01:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Avoiding duplication
We need to work out how to factor some material between the historical sections here and the article Anarchism in Spain. They cover a lot of the same territory; in general, we will want the main narrative in one place and a link and a summary in the other. - Jmabel | Talk 01:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- It seems to make more sense to put a "main article" template over though, especially because that article isn't cited at all, and this one will be cite very well;) Hmmm, citing that article could be a big project in and of itself. Murderbike (talk) 02:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)