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::I'm afraid I have to oppose such split/move. Usually we have an article of a currency first, and if the article grows larger, then we split off "Coins of ...", and then if that gets large, we have articles for individual denominations. What you're proposing is the reverse of this norm. And this article already has an image of a 2000 wen note. I can grab my coin and banknote catalog and start inputing all the denominations that have been issued. As with wén v.s. cash, I'm not against cash.--[[User:Chochopk|ChoChoPK]] (球球PK) ([[User talk:Chochopk|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Chochopk|contrib]]) 18:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC) |
::I'm afraid I have to oppose such split/move. Usually we have an article of a currency first, and if the article grows larger, then we split off "Coins of ...", and then if that gets large, we have articles for individual denominations. What you're proposing is the reverse of this norm. And this article already has an image of a 2000 wen note. I can grab my coin and banknote catalog and start inputing all the denominations that have been issued. As with wén v.s. cash, I'm not against cash.--[[User:Chochopk|ChoChoPK]] (球球PK) ([[User talk:Chochopk|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Chochopk|contrib]]) 18:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I'll endorse what AjaxSmack just said. I propose that we move this article to [[Cash (Chinese coin)]] or [[Chinese cash coins]] or [[Chinese cash (coins)]]. If there needs to be a separate article about the denomination, that portion can be split after the page move. I propose that the resulting (split) article on the denomination can be named [[Chinese |
:::I'll endorse what AjaxSmack just said. I propose that we move this article to [[Cash (Chinese coin)]] or [[Chinese cash coins]] or [[Chinese cash (coins)]]. If there needs to be a separate article about the denomination, that portion can be split after the page move. I propose that the resulting (split) article on the denomination can be named [[Chinese wen]], [[Chinese cash (copper currency)]], or [[Chinese copper cash (currency)]].--[[User:Endroit|Endroit]] ([[User talk:Endroit|talk]]) 18:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:25, 21 February 2008
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I read on a Chinese webpage regarding the square holes on the Chinese coins. The question was that if the hole is solely for threading the coins together, then why was it square? The theory was that the minting process back them was not very sophisticated and the minted coin usually have rough edges. A stack of coins would be stacked together and held still by a square rod through the square holes and the blacksmith would file the coin smooth as a group. I just read it from an article and the article didn't quote any source, so believe it or not! Kowloonese 00:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result was no consensus. Vassyana (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Chinese wén → Chinese cash — per WP:UE (use English for article titles), WP:UCN (use the most common name for article titles), and WP:OR (no original research). The use of the romanization in this case appears to be a creation of Wikipedia. See these sources for examples [1] [2] [3].
See the above two sections and Talk:Brunei ringgit#Requested Move for related discussion. A proposal to modify Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style that currently call for using non-English names for currencies is also under discussion at its talkpage. — AjaxSmack 22:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Numismatics Style guidelines have subsequently been changed to call for using English and using the common name of a currency. — AjaxSmack 04:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''
or*'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with~~~~
. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
- Oppose Cash is a foreign name for this currency. There's no reason to use a foreign name. Pinyin is hardly a creation of Wikipedia.
Dove1950 (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC) - Support Citations in book titles [4], New York Times [5], google books[6] support cash as English usage. For other examples of English (rather than pinyin) article titles for Chinese objects, see Tael, Mace, and Candareen.Erudy (talk) 01:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support Use English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose — "Chinese cash" needs to redirect to Chinese currency or Chinese yuan, or become a disambiguation. Note that there are many more types of "Chinese cash": See Template:Chinese currency and coinage. --Endroit (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- This appears to be a confusion between the Chinese monetary unit, discussed below, one-thousandth of a tael, and the generic sense of cash = "money", cognate with case, OED cash n1. The Chinese unit should be called one, any one, of the things English calls it, of which cash is probably the most common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per Endroit Bendono (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support: I've heard of "Chinese cash", and if I was looking it up on Wikipedia that's the first place I'd look. When a name is old and well-known, why are we trying to redefine the terminology on Wikipedia? Wén may be the Chinese name (I've never heard of it myself), but that's hardly a reason for supplanting the existing name. (And if anything, wén is the foreign name) Bathrobe (talk) 13:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- We already have the Cash (mass) article, which is another Chinese cash.--Endroit (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support as nominator for reasons given above. — AjaxSmack 04:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose -- unhelpful at this time, perhaps worth re-visiting in 2009. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- What does this mean? What's happening in 2009? — AjaxSmack 17:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support Its only the English Wikipedia which bends over backwards to incorporate "foreign" terms, despite the existence of WP:UE. Mcmullen writes (talk) 20:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support as per nom. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 18:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Comment — I believe most supporters here have failed to resolve the disambiguation issue for Chinese cash (disambiguation). To gracefully close this poll in conformance with WP:DAB and WP:NC, I propose that we move this article instead to Chinese cash coins or Chinese cash (coins), which will be a uniquely identifying name. This article talks more about the coins (rather than the denomination related to this coin), so it is an accurate name. (If there needs to be a separate article about the denomination, that portion can be split into Chinese wén later.)--Endroit (talk) 22:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Any additional comments:
Cash is not a foreign name, it's the English name. See external links above. — AjaxSmack 23:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wén was a Chinese currency. That makes an English name such as cash foreign.
Dove1950 (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)- Yes, and this is English Wikipedia where titles are at their common, English names (WP:UE, WP:UCN). — AjaxSmack 23:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I will support the resulted, possibly new, guideline from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Style#Guidelines change proposal. Fix a class of a problem, not an instance of a problem. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Numismatics Style guidelines have subsequently been changed to call for using English and using the common name of a currency. — AjaxSmack 04:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I will support the resulted, possibly new, guideline from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Style#Guidelines change proposal. Fix a class of a problem, not an instance of a problem. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and this is English Wikipedia where titles are at their common, English names (WP:UE, WP:UCN). — AjaxSmack 23:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just redirected Chinese cash to Chinese currency. Feel free to revert me, if you have a solid reasoning.--Endroit (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted your redirect because Chinese cash/wen, whatever we name it, is one type of Chinese currencies. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why does the term "Chinese cash" apply primarily to this article?... and not to any of the other articles covered under Template:Chinese currency and coinage?--Endroit (talk) 21:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted your redirect because Chinese cash/wen, whatever we name it, is one type of Chinese currencies. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I just redirected Chinese cash to Chinese currency. Feel free to revert me, if you have a solid reasoning.--Endroit (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- ← ← ← ←
This article is entirely appropriate and should not redirect. Chinese cash is a particular currency like a pound or dollar and a particular type of coin. Cash in this sense is not the same meaning as cash money and even the etymologies of the words are different. See cash article for details or the following passages:
From the Oxford English Dictionary entry for "cash, n.1":
- [ad. F. casse ‘a box, case, chest, to carrie or kepe wares in, also a Marchants cash or counter’ (Cotgr.), or its source It. cassa ‘a chest,..also, a merchants cashe or counter’ (Florio 1598):{em}L. capsa coffer, CASE. Mod.F. has caisse, Sp. caxa, Pg. caixa: the phonetic history of the Eng. word is not clear; the earliest known instances have cash; the sense ‘money’ also occurs notably early, seeing that it is not in the other langs.]
From the OED entry for "cash, n.2":
- [ad. (ultimately) Tamil k{amac}su (‘or perhaps some Konkani form of it’), name of a small coin, or weight of money:{em}Skr. karsha ‘a weight of silver or gold equal to of a tul{amac}’ (Williams); Singhalese k{amac}si coin. The early Portuguese writers represented the native word by cas, casse, caxa, the Fr. by cas, the Eng. by cass: the existing Pg. caixa and Eng. cash are due to a natural confusion with CASH n.1 From an early date the Portuguese applied caixa (probably on the same analogy) to the small money of other foreign nations, such as that of the Malay Islands, and especially the Chinese, which was also naturally made into cash in English. (Yule.)]
- A name applied by Europeans to various coins of low value in the East Indies and China: esp. a. The basis of the monetary system which prevailed in Southern India up to 1818; in this system 80 cash = 1 fanam, 42 fanams = 1 star pagoda (about 7s. 8d.).
Quoting OED: "The Chinese le (厘) and tsien (錢), coins made of an alloy of copper and lead, with a square hole in the centre whereby they are strung on cords; of these 1000 made a tael or liang (兩)." (Chinese characters and links added by Endroit.)
I don't know where the wén (文) designation for "Chinese cash" is sourced from. But the Japanese mon (文) dab says that mon/wén (文) originated in China during Northern Song, and subsequently introduced to Japan together with the qián (銭). (The Japanese mon (文) is derived from the Chinese wén (文).)
This means that lí (厘), qián (錢), and wén (文) all qualify for the "Chinese cash" designation under definition n.2, as well as the Chinese currency article which cover the square-holed copper coins. Perhaps Chinese cash should go to a dab.--Endroit (talk) 07:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Another point to consider is that the square-holed copper coins were used differently throughout history, and that the 1000 to 1 exchange ratio with the tael (兩) didn't always apply, or simply didn't exist at times.
- The Japanese Wikipedia's Sō sen/Sòng qián (宋銭) article describes in detail the Song Dynasty cash (宋錢), circulated throughout Asia a millenium ago. This is an early usage of the Chinese wén (文) not tied to the tael. OED's description is clearly the lí (厘), which is part of a later Chinese cash system.--Endroit (talk) 17:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- "Chinese cash" should be treated like catty or picul. Those who were born since 1985 may feel that jin is the only conceivable name for the Chinese unit of weight, but junking everything that people under 22 have never heard of doesn't seem like a very enlightened approach to increasing the sum of mankind's knowledge.
- Bathrobe (talk) 13:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- We already have an article for Chinese cash (厘). Here we are trying to make another article for Chinese cash (文). I tell you, the target name "Chinese cash" is way too ambiguous.--Endroit (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I am a native speaker of English. I do not speak Chinese. The entry title, whether "Chinese cash" or "Chinese wen" or something else, is not as important as the article's accuracy and clarity. This article is not clear. I suspect it is not accurate.
I am aware of three different uses of "cash" in connection with Chinese currency between the later part of the 18th century and World War One:
(1) cash : the traditional cast coin with the square hole;
(2) cash : the denomination unit appearing on the copper cash coins (without a hole and struck, not cast) that replaced traditional cash after 1900, the most common denomination being 10-cash. The Chinese equivalent would, presumably, also have appeared on token coins or "big cash" and on paper money previous to 1900; and,
(3) cash : a unit of account (1/1000 string) for debts and payments in copper (mace being used in English in connection with silver payments).
These three meanings of "cash" need disambiguation. If I understand correctly, Chinese 文 | wén is equivalent to English "cash" only in sense (2) above, and Chinese 錢 | qian is equivalent to (1) and (3). When referring to silver money, the tenth part of a "tael" (兩| liǎng) is/was Chinese 錢| qián, but this was called "mace" in English, never "cash". (We are not discussing weight as such, and we are not concerned with other meanings of "cash" in English, etc., etc. And I might add that I have never seen or heard English "cash" used to refer to knife or hoe money or coin.)Sivasova (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps we already have something like this...
- Chinese cash coin (usually 一文錢, literally meaning "one wén cash"), covered in Wiki by Chinese wén and Chinese currency : yes, this is the square-holed coin
- Chinese copper cash (currency) (文), covered in Wiki by Chinese wén and Chinese currency, perhaps not known by the European explorers & not covered in OED, introduced throughout Asia during Song Dynasty : yes & no, wén's history goes back a 1,000 years (or more)
- Chinese silver cash (weight & currency) (厘), covered in Wiki by Cash (mass) and Chinese currency, known by the European explorers & called le in OED, used during Qing Dynasty, tied in precisely to the Tael (1/1000) : no, I believe this is the silver cash unit Qing intended to be equivalent to one copper cash (wén)
- Chinese mace (錢 used as 1/10 tael), covered in Wiki by Mace (measurement) and Chinese currency, may not actually be considered "cash" because of its higher value (sorry I may have been mistaken before)
- Chinese cash (錢 used "in general") : I don't know if this is really covered in any of the Wiki articles, this is the general dictionary term for "small cash (coin)" in Chinese, called tsien in OED
- Also, I submit the following reference for your further reading:
- Please read carefully and understand that Chinese currency & weight units were usually equivalent, as the currency was inherently tied to the weight of the copper coins or silver ingots.--Endroit (talk) 17:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- In addition to creating the disambiguation page, we can split this article into two: Chinese cash coin (the bulk of this article) and Chinese wén (the portion describing the currency unit Wén/文). The other stuff like "knife money" and the first image can be moved to Chinese currency.--Endroit (talk) 18:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your help, but we seem to be talking at cross purposes. English terms and Chinese terms do not equate one to one (if they did, machines could do much better at translation). To comment on your comments:
- 1. The coin is 錢, the denomination is 一文. These are two different things. And we are not even talking about "what is written on the coin" as opposed to how the coin is talked about.
- 2. What "European explorers"? Chinese copper cash (pure copper struck coins as opposed to brass cast coins) were introduced in 1900, well past the age of exploration. Wen (文) is the denomination; this is clear from looking at coins. For example, the illustration of Y#5 on p.398 of 2008 Standard Catalog of World Coins 1901-2000 shows the denomination on the reverse as "20 CASH" and on the obverse as "文二十" I have been told the coin is 玫 (to distinguished it from the coin 錢). I would very much like to find out if this is true.
- 3. There is no such thing in English as a "silver cash" (see 4. below). And don't talk weights, because that is another issue.
- 4. Chinese 錢 is English "mace" when talking about silver currency, but "cash" when talking about copper currency.
- 5. Chinese 錢 used 'in general' may mean "cash" or "currency" or "coin" or "money", but this is somewhat outside our discussion.
- Please understand that Chinese currency and weight units use the same Chinese words, but currency and weight are two different things. And when discussing money, currency (meaning coins and paper) and the unit of account are two different things.
- Do me a favor Sivasova, and read the Tael article. Tell me if it describes tael as being BOTH the "weight" and "currency" unit, simultaneously. If you find it to be both "weight" and "currency", tell me if it's possible to separate the two.
- The same applies for Mace (measurement) (1/10 tael) and Cash (mass) (1/1000 tael), which are defined as fractions of the tael.--Endroit (talk) 03:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's too bad the "wén" word is hardly used in English. Here's a rare explanation in English, saying that the Wén (文) denominations existed in 1375, during Ming dynasty. The picture there shows a 1 string (貫) note, equivalent to 1000 wéns (文) in copper cash coins. A string (貫) of copper and a tael (兩) of silver are theoretically equivalent, but there's always a clear distinction made between the two.--Endroit (talk) 07:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- I just created the dab page Chinese cash (disambiguation), since there appeared to be some need for it.--Endroit (talk) 08:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Coin or denomination?
I need some clarification. This entry is certainly about English "cash", but is it about Chinese wén (文)?
I do not speak Chinese, only English, and I do not collect coins, but it is my understanding that the coin we call "cash" (the round cast coin with the square hole, not knife money or the other early moneys) is Chinese qian (錢). I thought Chinese wén (文), English "cash", was a denomination, not a coin, and that it was applied to the struck copper coins (without a hole) introduced in 1853, produced in great quantity in the 1890s, and standardized after 1900. I think these coins are usually called coppers in English, mei (玫) in Chinese, and are denominated in cash = wen.
It would be very helpful to have a Chinese speaker with a knowledge of numismatics comment on this. I would really appreciate having this cleared up for me.Sivasova (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'll hazard some guesses. There's not a one-to-one correspondence of cash and wén (文) for various historical and linguistic reasons. Cash in English can mean ¹cash (mass), ²the currency cash (i.e., Chinese cash), or ³Chinese copper coins in general (as in "a string of cash"). In Chinese, the cash mass is lí (厘) and the currency is wén (文). The only thing I guess they have in common is they're both 1/1000 of a tael, the currency being 1/1000 of a tael of silver.
- The word qián (錢) is today a generic word for money. Modern spoken Chinese grammar requires measure words before nouns (a little like the "loaf" in "a loaf of bread"). So to say dollar or cent in Chinese, you must say "a dollar of money" or "a cent of money." For the cash (wén/文) coins you refer to, some of which have "CASH" printed on them in English, the measure word is wén and for "one cash" you could say "yī wén qián" (一文錢), lit. "one cash of money."
- I don't know of any use of méi (玫) except in 玫瑰 (rose).
- To make it more confusing though, the Chinese qián (錢), in addition to being a word for money, is also a measure word itself and is a Chinese measure of mass called mace in English equal to 1/100 of a tael. This was probably used in earlier eras to denote a coin just as English "pound" is both weight and currency.
- This article deals with both the Chinese cash currency and copper cash in general.
- BTW, I'm no specialist in any of this so hold off before placing a bet on any of this.
— AjaxSmack 06:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input. I am aware of the other usage of the Chinese terms you refer to.
- I am not literate in Chinese; I am literate in English. My point is that this article is misleading and should probably be merged into Chinese currency. This article lumps together three different meanings of the English word "cash" when applied to Chinese currency. One use of "cash" is to refer to the denomination on the Western-style copper coins that ousted traditional cash after 1900. I believe this 'denomination' is Chinese "wen" (and it appears on the cash notes of 1853-1858). The article also labels as "cash" (in the accompanying image) both knife money and hoe money or coins. They are not called cash in English.Sivasova (talk) 13:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Article split
Copied from above: I propose that we move this article instead to Chinese cash coins or Chinese cash (coins), which will be a uniquely identifying name. This article talks more about the coins (rather than the denomination related to this coin), so it is an accurate name. (If there needs to be a separate article about the denomination, that portion can be split into Chinese wén later.)--Endroit (talk) 22:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- An article split is probably not a bad idea. However, the "Chinese" in the current title derives from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style guidelines that call for an adjective before a currency name. But if this article is to be about the coins rather than the currency denomination, then the "Chinese" as a direct part of the name is unneccesary. Just cash (Chinese coin) would suffice (cf. cash (mass)). As far as the term "wén" goes, it's rarely used (and bordering on original research with the tone mark). With changes in the guidelines, the English "cash" can be used. — AjaxSmack 17:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I have to oppose such split/move. Usually we have an article of a currency first, and if the article grows larger, then we split off "Coins of ...", and then if that gets large, we have articles for individual denominations. What you're proposing is the reverse of this norm. And this article already has an image of a 2000 wen note. I can grab my coin and banknote catalog and start inputing all the denominations that have been issued. As with wén v.s. cash, I'm not against cash.--ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 18:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'll endorse what AjaxSmack just said. I propose that we move this article to Cash (Chinese coin) or Chinese cash coins or Chinese cash (coins). If there needs to be a separate article about the denomination, that portion can be split after the page move. I propose that the resulting (split) article on the denomination can be named Chinese wen, Chinese cash (copper currency), or Chinese copper cash (currency).--Endroit (talk) 18:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)