Jzyehoshua (talk | contribs) |
|||
Line 708: | Line 708: | ||
:Perhaps you would prefer [http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama here]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red">11</font></b>]]</sup>''' 20:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
:Perhaps you would prefer [http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama here]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red">11</font></b>]]</sup>''' 20:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
||
{{hab}} |
{{hab}} |
||
⚫ | |||
== Coverage of Controversies? == |
|||
I notice that conservative political profiles have mentioned on them scandals and public criticisms such as Palin's (McCain's this time last year was noticeably critical, unlike Obama's) yet not liberals. I imagine this to be because of the disproportionate impact liberals have on the internet, a fact, by the way, which is statistically provable. According to the 2009 political typology report by the Pew Research Center, there are 9 different profiles of voters, 3 Republican, 3 Democrat, and 3 Moderate. The 17% that are overwhelmingly socially liberal (19% of registered voters), and the only wealthy one of the 3 Democrat groups, are also the group of all 9 to go online most frequently for their news (37%, with no other group but the Moderate Upbeats, at 34%, close - no other group but the Republican Enterprisers is at even 26%). |
|||
http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=945 |
|||
At any rate, I am proposing the following section, although, I notice that Wikipedia is now changing to avoid sections labeled 'Political Controversies' even though I noticed another politician with just such a section just today, so perhaps it would be best to not label it that, but instead make it merely historical referenced, as part of his senate career: |
|||
===================================== |
|||
==Political Controversies== |
|||
===Support for 'Infanticide'=== |
|||
Former 2004 Senate opponent [[Alan Keyes]], who entered the 2004 Senate race after Obama's original opponent, [[Jack Ryan]], dropped out due to a sex scandal, began accusing Obama just one day after entering the race of taking the 'slaveholder's position' because Obama termed children surviving late-term abortions "fetus]es]" and supported the right of hospitals to let them die of abandonment |
|||
<ref>{{cite news |title=Keyes assails Obama's abortion views |date=August 9, 2004 |url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5654128/ |work=Associated Press |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref>. Obama in 2003, before the [[Illinois Senate]], questioned whether a bill known as the Born Alive Infants Protection Act could be summarized as follows:<ref>{{Cite web |title=State of Illinois General Assembly 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript |publisher=Illinois General Assembly |date=March 30, 2001 |url=http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf |pages=85-87 |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref> |
|||
"[[Patrick O'Malley (American politician)|Senator O’Malley]], the testimony during the committee indicated that one of the key concerns was – is that there was a method of [[abortion]], an [[induced abortion]], where the — the [[fetus]] or [[child]], as – as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the [[womb]]. And one of the concerns that came out in the testimony was the fact that they were not being properly cared for during that brief period of time that they were still living. Is that correct? Is that an accurate sort of descriptions of one of the key concerns of the bill?" |
|||
After Senator O'Malley answered in the affirmative, Senator Obama's reply included the following: |
|||
"Number one, whenever we define a [[Viability (fetal)|previable fetus]] as a person that is protected by the [[equal protection clause]] or the other elements in the [[Constitution]], what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a nine-month-old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute. For that purpose I think it would probably be found unconstitutional. The second reason that it would probably be found unconstitutional is that this essentially says that a doctor is required to provide treatment to a previable child, or fetus, however way you want to describe it. Viability is the line that has been drawn by the Supreme Court to determine whether or not an abortion can or cannot take place. And if we're placing a burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as -- as is necessary to try to keep that child alive, then we're probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality." |
|||
During his time in the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama would vote against other bills addressing this subject of 'live birth abortion', including the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (which included statements by [[John Cullerton|Senator Cullerton]] that closely mirrored the aforementioned and later arguments of Obama)<ref>{{Cite web |title=State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript |publisher=Illinois General Assembly |date=March 18, 1997 |url=http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans90/ST031897.pdf |pages=61-63 |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref> and the Induced Birth Infants [[Liability]] Act (with both Senators Obama and Cullerton speaking, Obama elaborating).<ref>{{Cite web |title=State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript |publisher=Illinois General Assembly |date=April 4, 2002 |url=http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST040402.pdf |pages=30-35 |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref> |
|||
In August of 2008, [[FactCheck|Factcheck.org]] officially recognized some truth to the claims of infanticide, stating "We find that, as the [[NRLC]] said in a recent statement, Obama voted in committee against the 2003 state bill that was nearly identical to the federal act he says he would have supported. Both contained identical clauses saying that nothing in the bills could be construed to affect legal rights of an unborn fetus, according to an undisputed summary written immediately after the committee's 2003 mark-up session."<ref>{{Cite news |last=Henig |first=Jess |title=Obama and 'Infanticide' |publisher=FactCheck.org |date=August 25, 2008 |url=http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref> |
|||
===Chicago Politics=== |
|||
As reported on by the [[Chicago Tribune]]<ref>{{Cite news |last=Jackson |first=David |coauthors=Long |title=Barack Obama knows his way around a ballot |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |date=April 3, 2007 |url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070403obama-ballot-archive,0,5297304,full.story |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref> and later the [[Houston Press]]' Todd Spivak<ref>{{Cite news |last=Spivak |first=Todd |title=Barack Obama and Me |newspaper=Houston News |date=February 26, 2008 |url=http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/full |accessdate=December 17, 2009}}</ref>, Obama defeated early political opponents by challenging their [[petition]] signatures. In this way he was able to defeat activist and popular incumbent [[Alice Palmer (Illinois politician)|Alice Palmer]], who had earlier supported him, when she was forced to hurriedly collect petition signatures before the filing deadline. |
|||
As Spivak points out about the [[legislative]] record of Senator Obama, "It's a lengthy record filled with core [[liberal]] issues. But what's interesting, and almost never discussed, is that he built his entire legislative record in Illinois in a single year." Then Senate [[Majority Leader]] [[Emil Jones]] was approached by young Senator Barack Obama, who told him "You have the power to make a [[United States Senator]]."<ref>{{Cite news |last=Weisskopf |first=Michael |title=Obama: How He Learned to Win |newspaper=Time Magazine |location=Chicago,IL |date=May 8, 2008 |url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1738494-2,00.html |accessdate=May 8, 2008}}</ref> |
|||
During his last year in the Illinois Senate Obama sponsored 26 [[Bill (proposed law)|bills]] that were passed into law. Jones had Obama craft legislation dealing with key issues in the news. But what is more, as reported on by Spivak, "Jones appointed Obama [[Sponsor (legislative)|sponsor]] of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more [[Seniority in the United States Senate|seniority]] than Obama and had spent years championing the bills. 'I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty [[Republican]] committee [[chairmen]],' State Senator [[Rickey Hendon]], the original sponsor of landmark [[racial profiling]] and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. 'Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.'" |
|||
============ |
|||
Now, all of those are mainstream criticisms of Barack Obama. I would like to see the reasoning behind those who would deny the inclusion of them. I would also ask, if there is a consensus to be achieved on whether to put this in, how long will it take, and how will it be decided? After all, if hypothetically, liberals were more obtuse in refusing to allow criticisms of Obama yet conservatives were able to agree to allow valid criticisms of conservative candidates, would that mean that just because one side is hypocritically unjust in disallowing a consensus that variable and discriminatory means should be permitted to coexist? |
|||
--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] ([[User talk:Jzyehoshua|talk]]) 23:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
:Are you kidding? This isn't a political advertisement website that has a place for one side or the other to post their political adds against political figures. If you want to go around [[Wikipedia]] and accuse [[WP:BLP]] of killing children, you're not going to last very long. My suggestion for you is to either drastically reduce the size of your last edit here(there is a 500 word limit) and strike the portions that are purposely inflammatory, or just revert the whole thing. [[User:DD2K|DD2K]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 23:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
::Hey, hey, hey, keep the ad hominems to yourself. If you want to accuse me of using political ads then why don't you say what part of the heavily sourced facts you disagree with? Those are major sources I'm using to back up every little statement, even the inflections and tones of voice, when referring to Obama. The least you can do is state what you disagree with. |
|||
::I am not sure if those citations I gave are easily clicked on, I was trying to figure out how, so they may not work here in the discussion, but I will post them out. |
|||
::1. Keyes assails Obama's abortion views, August 9, 2004, [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5654128/], Associated Press. |
|||
::2. State of Illinois General Assembly 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 30, 2001, [http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf], pages=85-87 2009. |
|||
::3. State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 18, 1997, [http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans90/ST031897.pdf], pages=61-63. |
|||
::4. Obama and 'Infanticide', FactCheck.org, August 25, 2008, [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html]. |
|||
::5. Barack Obama knows his way around a ballot, Chicago Tribune, April 3, 2007, [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070403obama-ballot-archive,0,5297304,full.story]. |
|||
::6. Barack Obama and Me, Houston News, February 26, 2008, [http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/full]. |
|||
::7. Obama: How He Learned to Win, Time Magazine, May 8, 2008, [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1738494-2,00.html]. |
|||
::8. |
|||
::Look, I could play you and take the other side and say you shouldn't have the negative stuff about the Bridge to Nowhere or her governorship stuff on Sarah Palin's website because this isn't a place for 'political ads'. Just because it's politically controversial does not mean it is untrue, un-historical, factually inaccurate, or defamatory. It's only defamatory if not very clearly true and unsourced. Which is why I challenge you to back up your accusations against me and show even one word I said that is a matter of opinion rather than simply covering the subjects. |
|||
::It's because I don't think Wikipedia should treat itself like a political campaign website that I am opposing you on this. You're treating Obama's page here like a glorified billboard praising his beautiful attributes while avoiding anything critical of him, and denying the very different manner of approach used elsewhere for politicians on Wikipedia. I am saying that you should do one or the other. Either be willing to show the factual criticisms of him, or remove the criticisms for all other politicians. |
|||
::And again, if you think I am being opinionated or not backing up any statements in any way - then show how. Say it. Where's the beef? I wrote a well-sourced article and if you're going to throw around attacks like that against it and against me, then at least show the courtesy of saying why you disagree with them. Anyone can accuse an article or article writer. It's a whole other thing to actually provide reasoned arguments and logic-based critiques. |
|||
::As soon as I wrote this, I had someone come on my page and tell me I had to be [censored] kidding. Another one who wasn't even a moderator came and told me the post was reverted and then laughed when I asked them why it was reverted, told me I needed to get my eyes checked. There is a liberal community on the web that composes less than 20% of the American populace but will exert their influence over the rest of society whenever they can to further their agendas by silencing free speech through whatever means necessary. |
|||
We saw that in the large scale with the leaking of the climate change emails, which showed the liberal members of the scientific community were willing to go so far as bias in peer review and discrimination to remove or disallow all alternate points of view - and any evidence that did not fit their beliefs. |
|||
::--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] ([[User talk:Jzyehoshua|talk]]) 05:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
⚫ | |||
This article is blatantly in favor of Obama. There isn't even a criticisms area. In the economic section, not a word is devoted to any of the bailouts made available to Wall Street or foreign banks. Nothing is stated about the trillions the Fed handed over to recipients they refuse to disclose. The AIG scandal is left completely out. There is nothing in this article that lends any opposing voice to Obama's presidency. |
This article is blatantly in favor of Obama. There isn't even a criticisms area. In the economic section, not a word is devoted to any of the bailouts made available to Wall Street or foreign banks. Nothing is stated about the trillions the Fed handed over to recipients they refuse to disclose. The AIG scandal is left completely out. There is nothing in this article that lends any opposing voice to Obama's presidency. |
Revision as of 05:37, 18 December 2009
Template:Community article probation
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Template:WikiProject Columbia University
|
Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83 |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 7 sections are present. |
RFC: The Use of slang or informal language in a featured article.
I have started this RFC to avoid the back and forth editing over the use of the phrase "Rising star" in the article. The issue, as I see it, depends on two conflicting ideas, and I am not sure what the appropriate way to handle this is. Here, from my take, are the two ideas that are the source of the conflict:
- Wikipedia:Featured article criteria mandates that a featured article is "well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard."
- It is also important that Wikipedia article faithfully represent the information in the source material they cite.
So here is the crux of the problem. The source article, which is from a reliable source, uses the phrase "rising star". The idea that is trying to be expressed here is not under dispute. He was clearly a "rising star" in the sense of having a meteoric rise in popularity and importance due to his democratic senate primary win in 2004. The fact that such a rise in popularity and importance occured is not under dispute at all. Such an occurance is well documented in reliable source, and as such, it should most certainly have a prominent place in the article. The fact is a very important one, and should not be minimized or marginalized in any way. The problem is that the term "rising star" is slang, it does not represent writing which is "brilliant, and of a professional standard" as should be expected of an encylopedia article. The source material uses the phrase, but there must be some way that we can capture the concept while using language which is appropriate to the encyclopedic nature of this article. This RFC is intentionally being narrowly defined as how to deal with the phrase "rising star" from linguistic point of view. This is not an open debate over Obama's politics or importance or anything else. I just want to know how should we faithfully represent the source material without resorting to using the same slang that the source material uses. --Jayron32 20:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Put it in quotes "rising star" to indicate it is the wording of the source, and not a product of the article prose/style? Tarc (talk) 20:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's a novel idea, but rather self-evident once you put it like that. What about taking it a step further. Why not do something like this:
- "His landslide win in the Democratic Party primary during the 2004 Illinois Senate race, caused USA Today to call him a "rising star" in the Democratic Party."[4]
- Such phrasing would maintain the integrity of the source material, but also make it clear that Wikipedia is repeating the use of slang in another source; such direct quoting would seem to be a reasonable solution to the problem, since it attributes the informal tone to the source material, rather than leaving it as part of the article. That seems a very reasonable solution. I think as long as we both directly quote the phrase, and directly name the source in the article, it solves the problem. What does anyone else think? --Jayron32 21:05, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's a novel idea, but rather self-evident once you put it like that. What about taking it a step further. Why not do something like this:
If the informal phrase "rising star" is used, it should be used as a direct quote to a source. However, I would prefer to avoid the informality of that term altogether, and provide a more encyclopedic wording of the same concept. There are occasionally catch phrases that become closely identified with a biographical subject, and are used by many sources. For example, Reagan as "the Teflon president" might ascend to this, or "Friend of Bill [Clinton]" might. Both of those are informal, but have become almost tropes, and might be mentioned as such. The term "rising star" is used much more generically, with little specific affinity to Obama; he has been described that way in many sources, but many other politicians have also been so described. Hence there is no special reason to insist on the informality for this article. LotLE×talk 22:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- This RfC—based on Jayron32's unsubstantiated personal opinion that "rising star" is "slang"—is unfounded. The proposal to use scare quotes and attribute the description "rising star" to only a March 18, 2004 USA Today article—one of multiple, authoritative, cited sources for the description—is unneeded, inappropriate and unacceptable. Newross (talk) 19:53, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Rising star
- Jayron32's October 21, 2009 edit removing this sentence added to the lede six months ago by QueenofBattle:
is an improvement in accuracy—his U.S. Senate primary election landslide victory in March 2004 made him a rising star nationally in the Democratic Party; being a rising star nationally in the Democratic Party led to his selection to give the keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004.His prime-time televised keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004 made him a rising star nationally in the Democratic Party.
- Unitanode's October 21, 2009 edit removing "as a star" from this 2004 U.S. Senate campaign subsection sentence revised eight months ago by Happyme22:
left it three words shorter.a combined 9.1 million viewers saw Obama's speech, which was a highlight of the convention and elevated his status as a star in the Democratic Party.
- Unitanode's October 21, 2009 edit removing "rising star" from this 2004 U.S. Senate campaign subsection sentence revised seven months ago by me (Newross):
and rewriting it to say:In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29% ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
left it awkward, inaccurate and unfaithful to the cited sources.In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29% ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which raised his prominence within in the national Democratic Party almost overnight, and started speculation about a presidential future.
The noun "rising star" is:
- not a WP:Peacock term, as claimed by Jayron32 and Unitanode
- not Way too biased, as claimed by 67.60.50.5
- not slang, as claimed with no substantiation by Jayron32 using silly comparisons to actual slang phrases like "cool dude" and "the bitchinest cat on the block"
- not a colloquialism or "informal English", as claimed with no substantiation by Jayron32
- not found in reference works like:
Cassell's dictionary of slang
Informal English : puncture ladies, egg harbors, Mississippi marbles, and other curious words and phrases
McGraw-Hill's dictionary of American slang and colloquial expressions
NTC's dictionary of American slang and colloquial expressions
The Oxford dictionary of modern slang
The concise new Partridge dictionary of slang and unconventional English
Slang! : the topical dictionary of Americanisms
Stone the crows : Oxford dictionary of modern slang
etc. - according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 242 years old and defined as:
a person or thing that is growing quickly in popularity or importance in a particular field <a rising star in politics>
- used in professionally written newspaper news articles over the last quarter century about the selection of these Democratic and Republican National Convention keynote speakers:
Mario Cuomo (1984), Ann Richards (1988), Thomas Kean (1988), Bill Bradley (1992), Phil Gramm (1992), Evan Bayh (1996), Susan Molinari (1996), Harold Ford, Jr. (2000), Barack Obama (2004), Mark Warner (2008).
- used in professionally written Encyclopædia Britannica articles about:
politicians Eric Cantor, Brian Joseph Lenihan, Peter Mandelson, George Osborne, Najib Abdul Razak
physicist Enrico Fermi
History of Central Asia - The Middle Ages - The Mongol epoch - Mongol rule (Timur)
Japan - Domestic Affairs (Book of the Year 2001)
The U.S. 2002 Midterm Elections (Book of the Year 2002)
Germany - Government and Politics (Book of the Year 2003)
The U.S. Election of 2004 (Book of the Year 2004)
etc.
The noun "star" is:
- according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, over eight centuries old and defined as:
5a : the principal member of a theatrical or operatic company who usually plays the chief roles
5b : a highly publicized theatrical or motion-picture performer
5c : an outstandingly talented performer <a track star>
5d : a person who is preeminent in a particular field - used once in the professionally written Encyclopædia Britannica article about Barack Obama
(which is one-fourth the length of this amateurishly written Wikipedia article about Barack Obama)
These U.S. and international newspaper, newsmagazine, news service, and television and radio news networks reported that Barack Obama was a "rising star" in the national Democratic Party after his March 17, 2004 U.S. Senate primary election landslide victory and before his July 27, 2004 Democratic National Convention keynote address:
- The Boston Globe
- Chicago Sun-Times
- Chicago Tribune
- Christian Science Monitor
- Daily Herald (Arlington Heights)
- International Herald Tribune
- The New York Times
- Newsweek
- Peoria Journal Star
- The Philadelphia Inquirer
- South Florida Sun-Sentinel
- St. Petersburg Times
- USA Today
- The Wall Street Journal
- The Washington Post
- The Washington Times
- Daily Nation
- The Globe and Mail
- The Independent
- Associated Press
- Newhouse News Service
- ABC News
- CBS News
- NBC News
- CNN
- MSNBC
- PBS
- NPR
etc.
in professionally written news articles such as:
- Tilove, Jonathan (Newhouse News Service) (March 18, 2004). "Barack Obama: black Senate candidate a rising star." Mobile Register, p. A6.
- Howlett, Debbie (March 18, 2004). "Dems see a rising star in Illinois Senate candidate". USA Today.
- Harwood, John. (March 31, 2004). "Presidential politics overshadows rise of state-level stars." The Wall Street Journal, p. A4.
- Romano, Lois (April 10, 2004). "Kerry sprinkles jobs message with attacks on Iraq policy." The Washington Post, p. A4.
- Fornek, Scott (April 12, 2004). "Obama's poll puts him far ahead of Ryan." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 7.
- Kelley, Kevin (April 13, 2004). "Obama ahead in US Senate race." Daily Nation.
- Kuhnhenn, James (May 24, 2004). "With seven retirements, control of Senate is at stake in election." The Philadelphia Inquirer, p. A02.
- Kinzer, Stephen (June 26, 2004). "Candidate, under pressure, quits Senate race in Illinois." 'The New York Times, p. A8.
- Schoenburg, Bernard (June 26, 2004). "Ryan quits Senate race; state GOP braces for a tough fight against popular Democrat." Peoria Journal Star, p. A1.
- Mendell, David (July 7, 2004). "Fundraising has set record, Obama says; $4 million raked in in the last quarter." Chicago Tribune, p. 1 (Metro).
- Healy, Patrick (July 13, 2004). "Kerry hones campaign themes; with the big event two weeks away, picks up pace, cash." The Boston Globe, p. A3.
- Sweet, Lynn (July 14, 2004). "Dems plan to showcase Obama, Reagan." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 26.
- Zuckerman, Jill; Mendell, David (July 15, 2004). "Obama to give keynote address." Chicago Tribune, p. 1.
- Krol, Eric (July 15, 2004). "Convention spotlight to shine on Obama." Daily Herald (Arlington Heights), p. 15
- Gibson, William E. (July 18, 2004). "Parties prep for prime time, but networks cut coverage of conventions." South Florida Sun-Sentinel, p. 1A.
- Miller, Steve (July 21, 2004). "Ryan hangs on to Illinois ballot; delay in withdrawal worries GOP, blocks new candidates." The Washington Times, p. A04.
- Lannan, Maura Kelley (Associated Press) (July 22, 2004). "Times get tougher for Ill. GOP; in the land of Lincoln, one Senate candidate dropped out, and replacements aren't jumping in." The Philadelphia Inquirer, p. A03.
- Wills, Christopher (Associated Press) (July 25, 2004). "Ready to take his place on national stage; Democrats' rising star will give speech at convention." The Herald-Sun (Durham, North Carolina), p. A5.
- Zeller Jr., Tom; Truslow, Hugh K. (July 25, 2004). "Democrats, lend me your ears." The New York Times, p. 12 (Week in Review).
- Smith, Adam C. (July 25, 2004). "The true Kerry may emerge in Boston." 'St. Petersburg Times, p. 1A.
- Brackett, Ron (July 25, 2004). "The Parties' big parties." St. Petersburg Times, p. 10A.
- Knowlton, Brian (July 26, 2004). "Convention themes aim for the center; Democrats in Boston." International Herald Tribune, p. 1.
- . (August 2, 2004). "Star Power. Showtime: some are on the rise; others have long been fixtures in the firmament. A galaxy of bright Democratic lights." Newsweek, pp. 48–51.
- Milligan, Susan (July 27, 2004). "In Obama, Democrats see their future". The Boston Globe, p. B8.
- Paulson, Amanda (July 27, 2004). "Showcasing a coterie of new Democratic stars." Christian Science Monitor, p. 10.
- McCarthy, Shawn (July 27, 2004). "Minorities looking for gains in battle for the presidency; support seen as critical in key states." The Globe and Mail, p. A3.
- Cornwell, Rupert (July 27, 2004). "Democratic Convention: an unknown rookie, but can Obama be first black president?" The Independent (London), p. 5.
- Merzer, Martin; McCaffrey, Shannon (July 27, 2004). "Looking ahead with eye on past." The Philadelphia Inquirer, p. A01.
- Chancellor, Carl (July 27, 2004). "A rising star gets a key role tonight; Barack Obama, the keynote speaker, already has proven he can reach across societal divides and win support." The Philadelphia Inquirer, p. A10.
- Wertheimer, Linda (July 27, 2004). "Obama to rise to stage in Boston." Morning Edition, NPR
- Brackett, Elizabeth (July 27, 2004). "Rising star." The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, PBS
etc.
The cited March 18, 2004 New York Times and USA Today news articles and the two chapters (pages 235–259)—about the period between Obama's March 17, 2004 landslide U.S. Senate primary election and his July 27, 2004 Democratic National Convention keynote address—in the David Mendell (author of the Encyclopædia Britannica article about Barack Obama) book Obama: From Promise to Power should be sufficient WP:Reliable sources to support this amateurishly written Wikipedia article's sentence:
In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29% ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
Newross (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- First, I don't think you are going to win any arguements here by continuing to refer to Wikipedia in such derogatory terms as an "amateurishly" written article. You seem to be missing the very basics of Wikipedia, namely that it is an encyclopedia written not by professionals, but rather by everyday folk. Also, there seems to be little need for the chronology of the sentence's edits, including identifying specific editors, as Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. No one owns their individual contibutions. Lastly, haven't we already reached consensus on this?? QueenofBattle (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- I find this whole discussion to be incredibly shallow and unnecessary. For Christ’s sake, It’s just wording. It’s laughable.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 21:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- By amateurishly-written vs. professionally-written, I meant written-by-everyday-folk vs. written-by-professional-writers.
I did not mean to disparage the hard work of editors who have made positive contributions to this article—many of whom have been driven away by its pervasively hostile and unpleasant editing environment.
This article meets many featured article criteria and is not poorly written, but its strength has never been criteria 1(a): that "its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard."
My point was that an accurate, reliably sourced term that is not slang, not a colloquialism , not informal language, and is used in professionally-written Encyclopædia Britannica articles, should not be excluded from use in this written-by-everyday-folk encyclopedia article. - I noted when the changed sentences were last revised—6 months, 8 months, and 7 months ago—to show that the sentences had been stable.
I noted who had last revised the changed sentences to show why they might be concerned about the changes.
I agree that editors do not own their Wikipedia contributions, but it is not unreasonable for an editor who has endeavored to find the best available references and carefully word a sentence to accurately reflect those references, would take issue with casual changes to it made for bogus reasons (e.g. claiming—based on unsubstantiated personal opinion—that "rising star" is "way to biased", or a peacock term, or slang, or a colloquialism , or informal English not used in professionally-written encyclopedia articles). - No, we haven't already reached consensus on this.
Newross (talk) 17:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Very brief reply
You appeal to authority, citing David Mendell, author of the EB article on Pres. Obama, as someone who used that phrase. Yet, you fail to mention that the article he wrote doesn't actually use the phrase. Do you care to comment a to why you think that might be? We are not a news outlet, a radio talk program, or any of the other sources you cite. That these sources call him that allows us to quote them calling him that, but to call him that in an encyclopedia article seems PEACOCK-y, and not just to me. There are others here who agree that if we use the term, it needs to be in quoting a source, and even Mullen himself didn't put that in the EB article, at all. UA 20:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was appealing to evidence that ten Encyclopædia Britannica articles using the term "rising star" to describe politicians demonstrates that it is used in professionally-written encyclopedia articles and is not informal English.
- I did not say David Mendell used the term "rising star" in his Encyclopædia Britannica article about Barack Obama; I said he used the word "star" once in his Encyclopædia Britannica article about Barack Obama.
- I cited chapters 17, 18, and 19 (pages 235–271) from David Mendell's book Obama: From Promise to Power as one of four sources for the sentence:
because it is good source and refers to "his rising star" (on page 247) and being "a rising star" (on page 268).In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29% ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- Newross (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be necessary to say, I concur completely with Newross on the linguistic and encyclopedic appropriateness issues. The very section we are currently writing/reading was titled "RFC: The Use of slang or informal language in a featured article". On that basis several editors weighed in with support of removing the term, and in doing so repeated or expounded on the misnomers "slang" and "informal language". Yet the term in question, rising star, is neither slang nor informal language, and this fact presumably comes as a surprise to those editors who have thus far weighed in. (Making it more surprising when someone claims a consensus has already been reached—on the basis of a collective misunderstanding that has already come to light?!) It seems to me that, at a certain point in time, the fact that Barack Obama was a "rising star" was the argument against him as much as it was the argument for him, so peacockery is an odd complaint now.
- Jimmy Carter was anything but a rising star in the party in the years prior to his presidential run, with the popular response being "Jimmy who?" Richard Nixon, on the other hand, was so far from being a rising star as to be thought of as yesterday's news—"You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore". That some people are and others are not rising stars is neither an irrelevant nor a superficial aspect of their path to the White House. I don't see what the problem is with noting that here, given the plethora of reliable sources Newross points out for the term's application to Obama dating to that period of several months alone, that Obama was in fact a rising star.
- Where I differ from Newross, however, is the time period for which the term is most appropriately used. Election to the state senate doesn't make you a rising star, it makes you a state senator—one of more than a thousand otherwise anonymous state senators in the country—unless you distinguish yourself otherwise and/or fate or a recognition of your potential results in other doors opening for you. Obama's true rising star period—and the one worth acknowledging in the lead—revolves around his address to the convention, beginning with the second two-thirds of the refs Newross gives, which are about him being picked to give that convention address and not actually about his state senate win—and reverberating across the country with the national press coverage and increased name recognition afterward. It was his fame (and comportment, eloquence and compelling story, etc.) in this period, and not in the pre- and post-state senate win period—that allowed for his swift progression to U.S. senator two years later and president two years after that, a rather swift and biographically quite remarkable ascendancy. (Is a singer, for example, a rising star the moment a local showcase draws the attention of a big-time agent and manager and record company, or at the moment they make their national debut?) Did dozens of local and national media and Dem party people see Obama's potential earlier? Certainly. Is that the part of Obama's rising star status that bears being singled out in the lead? I would argue that it is not. Had Obama not been picked to give the convention speech—or had he fumbled it miserably—his star might well have been limited to that of big fish in the Illinois pond, at least for a few more years. Had Obama won the primary but merely came in a strong second in the general for the state senate, I'm guessing he would've been encouraged from inside and outside the party to run for U.S. Senate anyway, allowing for continued ascendancy. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and setting a course or breaking a stasis may be the most significant point from the standpoint of the individual, but from the standpoint of the journey—the bio—the "rising" part within the party comes in the shift from a local to a national stage. To give more emphasis on star status in the national party to the state senate win specifically than we do on the convention speech, from pick to delivery to reaction, is I hope an obvious mistake, and I reiterate that Newross' own refs seem to support that.
- To the initiator of the RfC, Jayron32, then, from "the linguistic point of view", there is no basis to object to the use of the term, free from quotes or textual attribution, in the manner that QueenofBattle added it (as the result of discussion at the time, if I recall correctly), and the way to deal with it is to restore it as it has stood these past six months (or in some improved way), linked to the period surrounding his convention speech, and not to his state senate win. Abrazame (talk) 08:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Reply to RFC Restricting my commentary to the nature of the language of "rising star," I think Newross' research on this point is conclusive, and it can be used without scare quotes in the narrative voice of the article. RayTalk 16:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Reply to RFC The term "rising star" is widely used in several fields, it clearly applies here, it has and can be used in professional writing, it is engaging. Thus, it is fine for use in this article without quotes or in-text attribution. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Belated reply to RFC I have to agree with Newross, Ray, Wasted Time R and any others I might have missed - the term "rising star" is completely appropriate for this article. Tvoz/talk 03:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your responses.
I don't quite understand Abrazame's references to Obama's election to the state Senate.
No one said his elections to the state Senate (in 1996, 1998, and 2002) made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party in 2004.
- I am not recommending using "rising star" in the lede, which per WP:LEADCITE is a summary of the article and does not cite any references.
- I am saying that in the 2004 U.S. Senate campaign subsection of this article, "rising star" is the best and most historically accurate description of Obama's status in the national Democratic Party the morning after his March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate primary election landslide victory—as reported in the cited references: David Mendell's 2007 book Obama: From Promise to Power and in contemporaneous news articles "As quickly as overnight, a Democratic star is born" in The New York Times and "Dems see a rising star in Illinois Senate candidate" in USA Today.
- Obama's status as a rising star in the national Democratic Party and the favorite to win an important Republican-held U.S. Senate seat (the U.S. Senate was then narrowly divided with a 51-49 Republican majority), landed him on the Kerry campaign's short list of potential Democratic National Convention keynote speakers along with several Democratic governors from swing states: first-term Governors Jennifer Granholm, 45, of Michigan; Janet Napolitano, 46, of Arizona; Mark Warner, 49, of Virginia; Bill Richardson, 56, of New Mexico; and second-term Governor Tom Vilsack, 53, of Iowa.
- Kerry selected Obama as keynote speaker after being impressed by Obama while campaigning with him in Chicago on April 8–9, 2004[5] and again on June 29, 2004,[6][7]—four days after E. J. Dionne's Washington Post column "In Illinois, a star prepares" and the withdrawal of Obama's Republican opponent Jack Ryan,[8][9]—and one day after the July 5, 2004 issue of Time magazine hit the newsstands with a large color picture of Obama accompanying the two-page article "Dreaming about the Senate" on pages 34–35, followed on page 36 by the article "Leaving blacks cold" about the Kerry campaign's tepid support by blacks. On July 2, 2004, the Kerry campaign informed Obama that they had chosen him to be the DNC keynote speaker.
- After the Illinois Senate adjourned at 8:13 pm CDT on Saturday, July 24, 2004, Obama flew from Springfield, Illinois to Boston to appear on three of the five television network news Sunday morning talk shows.
- As the lead guest on Tim Russert's Meet the Press on NBC, Russert's second question to Obama was about Ryan Lizza's Atlantic Monthly article "The Natural. Why is Barack Obama generating more excitement among Democrats than John Kerry?"[10]
- As the lead guest on Bob Schieffer's Face the Nation on CBS, the show began with:[11]
SCHIEFFER: So we'll ask our guests, Senator Obama, and we must say Senator Obama is now being talked about as being kind of a rock star of Democratic politics. He's run a sensational race for the Democratic nomination for the Senate out here. And he has been chosen to give the keynote address. Do you feel any pressure?
Newross (talk) 02:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- The last I'll say about this is, I thought we were writing an encyclopedia article, not a magazine article. If one person in this discussion can cite even one example of an encyclopedia article using such a term without it being a direct quote from a source, I'll completely cede the point. I don't think you'll find such an article, because that doesn't sound like encyclopedic language. UA 02:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- IMO using a metaphor such as "landslide victory" doesn't seem encyclopedic either. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:32, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Newross, I acknowledge that the rising of Obama's star notably includes his primary and electoral wins. But as I pointed out, 2/3 of your usage references in your main post here are actually from the time after he was chosen in July to give the DNC keynote speech. Even in your response most recently above, your quoting of questions dated to July 25 and reference of then-yet-unpublished articles support my assertion, not your own, as of course the velocity of the rise in his "rock star" status had just been given the turbo boost of its first national evidence: the gathering decision and ultimate choice in July as the convention's keynote speaker. That trajectory would not have been spoken of so frequently in that period if Kerry had chosen Bill Richardson or Tom Vilsack, as you note having been on his short list, to give the keynote instead of Obama, and Obama had not had that opportunity to take the national stage.
- IMO using a metaphor such as "landslide victory" doesn't seem encyclopedic either. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:32, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do have that timeline straight. My apologies for condensing the broader election cycle timeline in my statement—his progression to U.S. senator was a few months later, not two years later. Indeed, there are only 100 actively serving U.S. senators at a given moment, unlike the thousand-plus state senators; there are two major party nominees for each seat that is up, so that particular point of mine is diluted though not nullified. I also take your point that you are speaking about the article, not the lead, and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to stand corrected on both points.
- Obviously he was everything he was in either timeframe, and obviously the leap in going from state senator to U.S. senator is automatically a hugely significant one in notability, national relevancy and "stardom", so it's not that I'm disagreeing with you or your refs, nor would I object to the usage of the term where you suggest, I simply think it's more appropriate (and, again, supported by the refs) for the period a few months later, represented by the following paragraph in the bio, where it originally had been.
- To Unitanode and Gordon Ecker (and Newross), and most relevant to the question posed in this RfC, am I also mistaken that Newross has correctly cited the Encyclopædia Brittanica as using the term "rising star"? After the two supportive replies following my post, the most recent two posts here completely ignore the bulk of Newross' statements above. Do the Encyclopædia Britannica articles of which Newross speaks cite quotes by others rather than using the language themselves? Could we get quotes featuring a couple of those usages to help us clarify the encyclopedic issue and make/revise our decisions here? Abrazame (talk) 07:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Obama's March 2004 U.S. Senate primary election landslide victory made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party—as reported by news articles from March 17, 2004 to July 14, 2004.
- Obama being a rising star in the national Democratic Party led to his selection as Democratic National Convention keynote speaker—as reported by news articles from July 15, 2004 to July 27, 2004.
- If Obama had not been selected as DNC keynote speaker, the Atlantic Monthly would still have published Ryan Lizza's article "The Natural. Why is Barack Obama generating more excitement among Democrats than John Kerry?" (which does not mention the Democratic National Convention nor Obama's selection as its keynote speaker) on the first day of the Democratic National Convention on July 26, 2004.
- If Obama had not been selected as DNC keynote speaker, then like the other rising stars on the short list to be keynote speaker but who were not selected, he would have had another prime-time speaking role at the convention.
- If Jennifer Granholm had been selected as DNC keynote speaker over Obama instead of vice versa, Obama may have only appeared on one of five television network news Sunday morning talk shows (e.g. Bob Schieffer's Face the Nation on CBS).[12]
- Being selected as the keynote speaker of a national political party convention is an honor, but it doesn't make someone a political "rock star" if they are not already at least "rock star-esque":
- Fornek, Scott (April 12, 2004). "Obama's poll puts him far ahead of Ryan." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 7:
Vying to become only the third African American elected to the U.S. Senate in the last 100 years, Obama has enjoyed mostly positive media coverage since his victory, with party leaders and pundits invariably dubbing him "a rising star." Last week, a CNN reporter dubbed Obama a "rock star-esque candidate."
- Fornek, Scott (April 12, 2004). "Obama's poll puts him far ahead of Ryan." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 7:
Some professionally-written Encyclopædia Britannica articles using the term "rising star":
- "Abu Abbas." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Abbas grew up in a Palestinian refugee camp in Syria and, under the nom de guerre Abu Abbas, became a rising star in Ahmad Jibril's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine–General Command, which was known for its daring, ruthless, and frequently disastrous attacks on Israel.
- "Jerry Bailey." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Bailey enjoyed considerable success around the country prior to establishing his presence as a rising star on the New York state circuit in 1982.
- "Anne Bracegirdle." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Bracegirdle retired at the height of her career, about 1707, when she began to be eclipsed by the rising star of Anne Oldfield.
- "Eric Cantor." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
After his election to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, Cantor was considered a rising star among House Republicans; he became chief deputy whip of the Republican caucus after only two years.
- "history of Central Asia." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Furthermore, instead of seeking the assistance of petty eastern European princes, Tokhtamysh hitched his wagon to the rising star of Timur, with whose support he reasserted Mongol supremacy in Russia.
- "John Zachary DeLorean." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
A rising star in the automotive industry, DeLorean helped to revitalize Packard before leaving in 1956 to join General Motors.
- "Enrico Fermi." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
In 1929 Fermi, as Italy's first professor of theoretical physics and a rising star in European science, was named by Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini to his new Accademia d'Italia, a position that included a substantial salary (much larger than that for any ordinary university position), a uniform, and a title (“Excellency”).
- "Cathy Freeman." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Cathy Freeman's silver medal in the 400-metre run at the 1996 Games in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S., introduced this rising star from Australia to the Olympic world.
- "Neil Gaiman." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
The work established them as rising stars in the comic world, and soon the two were noticed by publishers on both sides of the Atlantic.
- "Jan Lechoń." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Lechon was considered a rising star of new Polish poetry.
- "Brian Joseph Lenihan." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Well regarded for his affable manner, he was seen as one of the rising stars of the Fianna Fail party, along with his ally Charles Haughey--later prime minister--whom he succeeded as minister of justice in 1964.
- "Peter Mandelson." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
He promoted Kinnock’s modernization agenda and ensured high media profiles for some of Labour’s rising stars, then in their 30s, such as Blair and Brown.
- "George Osborne." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
* "Najib Abdul Razak." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.Osborne entered Parliament in 2001, and he was quickly seen as a rising star.
Early in his parliamentary career, Najib Razak smoothed relations between the government and the hereditary ruling class in the Pahang region, and he was seen as one of the rising stars within the United Malays National Organization (UMNO).
- "Rick Rubin." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
After hearing “It’s Yours,” Russell Simmons, who was already a rising star in the hip-hop scene, joined Rubin at Def Jam.
- "The U.S. 2002 Midterm Elections." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
At one point Republicans appeared poised to replace a rising Democratic star, Sen. Robert Torricelli of New Jersey, who was admonished by his Senate colleagues following an ethics investigation into his campaign contributions and acceptance of personal gifts.
Re: landslide victory
- Multiple contemporaneous news articles described Obama's March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate primary election win as a "landslide victory":
- Fornek, Scott; Herguth, Robert C. (March 17, 2004). "Obama defeats Hull's millions, Hynes' name; Consistent effort results in landslide for Hyde Parker." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 2:
Maybe it wasn't such a bad ballot name after all. Barack Obama, who went from Hawaii to Harvard to Hyde Park, won a landslide victory in the Democratic primary Tuesday, bringing him one step closer to becoming the only African American in the U.S. Senate.
- Mendell, David (March 17, 2004). "Obama routs Democratic foes; Ryan tops crowded GOP field; Hynes, Hull fall far short across state." Chicago Tribune, p. 1:
Barack Obama, an African-American state senator and former civil-rights lawyer from Hyde Park, won a landslide victory over six competitors Tuesday to assume the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate, setting the stage for a crucial contest in November that could tip the balance of power in Congress. Obama, 42, whose initial campaign strategy was to build a coalition of blacks and liberal whites, instead surprised even his strategists by amassing broad support from throughout the party. He won over not only urban black voters, but also many suburban whites. With 89 percent of precincts reporting around the state, Obama led his next closest rival, Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes, by 54 percent of the vote to 23 percent, as expected strong support for Hynes from Chicago's Democratic machine failed to materialize.
- Moe, Doug (March 18, 2004). "Tommy and Co. disliked paper." The Capital Times, p. 2A:
Barack Obama, who won a landslide victory in Tuesday's Democratic U.S. Senate primary in Illinois, is "of counsel" with the law firm Miner, Barnhill and Galland, which has offices in Chicago and Madison. Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review and a highly-sought-after attorney upon graduating. He picked the Miner, Barnhill and Galland firm because of its strong reputation as a civil rights firm. "A spectacular guy," Chuck Barnhill said Wednesday of Obama, who, if elected, would be the third black ever to serve in the U.S. Senate. One of the others, Carol Moseley Braun, also was an attorney with the Miner, Barnhill firm.
- Fornek, Scott (March 18, 2004). "Obama's appeal spans racial lines; Dem Senate candidate built diverse coalition on universal issues." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 9:
He ran television commercials featuring images of white and black Democratic icons—from the late Sen. Paul Simon to the late Mayor Harold Washington. He built a coalition that spanned racial, ethnic and religious lines. He talked about issues with universal appeal to Democrats—from his opposition to the war in Iraq to his call to repeal President Bush's tax cuts. And he embraced his African-American heritage while reaching out to all voters. Those were the building blocks of Barack Obama s landslide victory in the Illinois Democratic primary for U.S. Senate. But the foundation was the candidate himself. The product of a racially mixed marriage, he had a stellar resume that includes a Harvard education, years of community activism and experience as a state senator from Hyde Park, factors that contributed to his ability to win votes across racial lines.
- Polansek, Tom (March 18, 2004). "No rest for the winners; Obama, Ryan hit campaign trail after primary wins." The State Journal-Register, p. 7:
In Tuesday's Democratic primary, Obama won a landslide victory with 53 percent of the vote in a field of seven candidates. On the Republican side, Ryan won 36 percent of the vote in an eight-way race.
- Howlett, Debbie (March 19, 2004). "Dems see a rising star in Illinois Senate candidate." USA Today, p. 4A:
Three weeks ago, state Sen. Barack Obama appeared to be an also-ran among the eight Democrats running in Illinois for the nomination to an open U.S. Senate seat. Today, three days after his landslide victory in that crowded field, the self-described "skinny guy with the funny name" is the odds-on favorite to win in November and become the only African-American in the Senate and only the third black senator since Reconstruction. Partisans in Washington consider him a shooting star in the November elections. A few whisper about a presidential future.
- Polansek, Tom (May 3, 2004). "Winning strategies differ among black politicians." The State Journal-Register, p. 1:
Days after Barack Obama won a landslide victory in the Democratic U.S. Senate primary, former Gov. Jim Edgar said skin color had ceased to be an issue in Illinois politics. Obama, an African-American state senator from Chicago, ran strong in white areas and beat opponent Dan Hynes in Hynes' own Chicago ward.
- Fornek, Scott; Herguth, Robert C. (March 17, 2004). "Obama defeats Hull's millions, Hynes' name; Consistent effort results in landslide for Hyde Parker." Chicago Sun-Times, p. 2:
- The noun "landslide" is:
- according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 171 years old and defined as:
2a : a great majority of votes for one side
2b : an overwhelming victory
- according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 171 years old and defined as:
- The term "landslide victory" is used in many professionally-written Encyclopædia Britannica articles, including:
- "Calvin Coolidge." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Running on the slogan “Keep Cool with Coolidge,” he won a landslide victory over conservative Democrat John W. Davis and Progressive Party candidate Robert La Follette, gaining about 54 percent of the popular vote to Davis's 29 percent and La Follette's nearly 17 percent; in the electoral college Coolidge received 382 votes to Davis's 136 and La Follette's 13.
- "Dwight D. Eisenhower." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Democrats again selected Adlai E. Stevenson and named Senator Estes Kefauver of Tennessee as his running mate, but Eisenhower's great personal popularity turned the election into a landslide victory, the most one-sided race since 1936, as the Republican ticket garnered more than 57 percent of the popular vote and won the electoral vote 457 to 73.
- "Indian National Congress." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Nevertheless, her New Congress Party scored a landslide victory in the 1971 elections, and for a period it was unclear which party was the true rightful heir of the Indian National Congress label.
In the parliamentary elections held in March 1977, the opposition Janata Party scored a landslide victory over the Congress Party, winning 295 seats in the Lok Sabha (the lower house of India's Parliament) against 153 for the Congress; Gandhi herself lost to her Janata opponent. - "Labour Party." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
This “New Labour” agenda, combined with highly professionalized political marketing, produced a landslide victory in the general election of 1997, returning Labour to power after 18 years of Conservative Party rule and securing Tony Blair's appointment as prime minister.
In 2001 the party won a second consecutive landslide victory, capturing a 167-seat majority—the largest-ever second-term majority for any party in the House of Commons. - "Richard M. Nixon." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Renominated with Agnew in 1972, Nixon defeated his Democratic challenger, liberal Sen. George S. McGovern, in one of the largest landslide victories in the history of American presidential elections: 46.7 million to 28.9 million in the popular vote and 520 to 17 in the electoral vote.
- "Scotland." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
After Labour won a landslide victory in the general elections of May 1997—in which the Conservatives lost all their Scottish seats and the SNP took 6 seats in Parliament—the Labour government of Tony Blair called a referendum for establishing a Scottish Parliament with a broad range of powers, including control over the country's education and health systems.
- "Margaret Thatcher." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
Thatcher won election to a second term in a landslide—the biggest victory since Labour's great success in 1945—gaining a parliamentary majority of 144 with just over 42 percent of the vote.
- "Calvin Coolidge." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009.
- Restored longstanding sentence with historically accurate description from multiple cited authoritative contemporaneous WP:Reliable sources:
Newross (talk) 22:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- And, I have undone it. You surely have the most words here about this subject, but you are the only one who feels the wording "rising start" is appropriate. The clear consensus is to leave the wording as it is, which is what my reversion has restored. QueenofBattle (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no clear consensus or justification whatsover for YOUR revert. Newross (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- You mean other than all the discussion above?! I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you about this; it's plain to see that you are the only one toting this wagon. QueenofBattle (talk) 01:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, actually, several editors responded to the RFC in support of the wording "rising star". Tvoz/talk 03:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, both QueenofBattle and Newross are incorrect. Newross has clearly (and amply) presented the basis for "rising star" as encyclopedically appropriate wording, whether anybody wishes to acknowledge it or not. However, the longstanding use of the term in the article, as I indicated and defended as most appropriate, was in reference to his keynote address, and not where Newross has added it at the primary win. I realize there has been a lot of verbiage involved in this discussion but editors are quick to dismiss one or two points, as QueenofBattle's post of 25 October shows. I'm quite disappointed that nobody has weighed in on this since the most recent (1 November) spate of Newross' thorough research. When an editor so fully throws himself into tracking down watertight evidence supporting usage, etc., it should not simply go ignored for weeks. I would request that my own points also be adequately responded to. Abrazame (talk) 05:55, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- I still think we should try to use more formal, less poetic language when it is practical. I'll bring it up on Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- On balance I would go with "landslide" but try to find more formal and precise ways to say "rising star" and "overnight". Though a metaphor, landslide is specialized and widely used term with respect to election results, and there is no better way to say it as far as I know. "Rising star" is almost always used imprecisely, and begs the question of what they are a star of. I'm surprised that Encyclopedia Brittanica uses it outside of the entertainment field (music, films, and perhaps sports) where it does serve as a specialized term. It can probably be said more precisely, e.g. that Obama was perceived within the Democratic Party as a viable / attractive future candidate for high office. "Overnight" is usually hyperbole should only be used if literally true; otherwise we should be more specific, e.g. "in the next several days" or "by the end of the week", etc. But even if true it sounds like hyperbole and we should use a term that makes it clear we mean it, e.g. "by the next morning". We source facts to reliable sources, not necessarily word choice and tone. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Rising star which I have never considered to be slang. Newross's evidence clearly shows that this is true. The current version (using prominence) is incredibly awkward, and, as mentioned above, doesn't keep the integrity of the sourced material. Deserted Cities (talk) 16:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- On balance I would go with "landslide" but try to find more formal and precise ways to say "rising star" and "overnight". Though a metaphor, landslide is specialized and widely used term with respect to election results, and there is no better way to say it as far as I know. "Rising star" is almost always used imprecisely, and begs the question of what they are a star of. I'm surprised that Encyclopedia Brittanica uses it outside of the entertainment field (music, films, and perhaps sports) where it does serve as a specialized term. It can probably be said more precisely, e.g. that Obama was perceived within the Democratic Party as a viable / attractive future candidate for high office. "Overnight" is usually hyperbole should only be used if literally true; otherwise we should be more specific, e.g. "in the next several days" or "by the end of the week", etc. But even if true it sounds like hyperbole and we should use a term that makes it clear we mean it, e.g. "by the next morning". We source facts to reliable sources, not necessarily word choice and tone. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- I still think we should try to use more formal, less poetic language when it is practical. I'll bring it up on Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, both QueenofBattle and Newross are incorrect. Newross has clearly (and amply) presented the basis for "rising star" as encyclopedically appropriate wording, whether anybody wishes to acknowledge it or not. However, the longstanding use of the term in the article, as I indicated and defended as most appropriate, was in reference to his keynote address, and not where Newross has added it at the primary win. I realize there has been a lot of verbiage involved in this discussion but editors are quick to dismiss one or two points, as QueenofBattle's post of 25 October shows. I'm quite disappointed that nobody has weighed in on this since the most recent (1 November) spate of Newross' thorough research. When an editor so fully throws himself into tracking down watertight evidence supporting usage, etc., it should not simply go ignored for weeks. I would request that my own points also be adequately responded to. Abrazame (talk) 05:55, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, actually, several editors responded to the RFC in support of the wording "rising star". Tvoz/talk 03:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- You mean other than all the discussion above?! I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you about this; it's plain to see that you are the only one toting this wagon. QueenofBattle (talk) 01:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- The issue is that it's informal speech that uses a metaphor that doesn't describe the situation completely or squarely - not that it's slang as such. A star is a stellar object in the night sky; a "rising star" by extension is a metaphor for something that, having appeared faintly on the horizon thereafter rises and thereby become more visible. In common speech a star is a person who has gained fame and adoration, not necessarily respect or power, among a wide part of the populace - without respect to their reputation among experts or insiders. The term is most commonly used to describe entertainment personalities so using it to describe politicians is a metaphor about a metaphor. To say that Obama became a star doesn't mean he became a real contender, or entered the corridors of power. It is to say that a large number of political non-insiders became fans. Is that specifically what we want to say about him, or could we describe it more precisely? Perhaps he did capture the popular imagination then. But he also showed himself to be an up-and-coming political candidate then, which is a somewhat different thing. Taking this back to entertainment, you might say that Sean Penn became a "rising star" after Fast Times at Ridgemont High. But you could not say that Mickey Rourke became a rising star after Diner (film) or Rumble Fish, even though among critics and film lovers that was a much more auspicious beginning. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- The noun rising star may have arisen centuries ago as a metaphor, but according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, since 1767 it has been defined as:
and used this way in professionally-written encyclopedia articles.a person or thing that is growing quickly in popularity or importance in a particular field <a rising star in politics>
- Newross (talk) 22:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Much informal speech has old origins. "Rising star" is clearly colorful as opposed to precise language. That particular dicdef is not quite right, although "particular field" hints at the issue; there is a connotation of fandom and popular support with respect to a certain group, not importance as such. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- The noun rising star may have arisen centuries ago as a metaphor, but according to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, since 1767 it has been defined as:
How about if everyone takes a look at the current text, which avoids the controversial and POV-ish term "rising star"? It seems to present the operative point in an encyclopedic manner. QueenofBattle (talk) 23:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- "Rising star" isn't controversial or POV-ish. Its a common term. So common, in fact that Encyclopedia Brittanica uses it, as do many newspapers, including one that specifically mention BHO. Deserted Cities (talk) 01:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Common? Perhaps given its use in EB. POV-ish? I think so given that one doesn't refer to another they may dislike as a "star". Controversial? Clearly so given the many, many paragraphs of text discussing it on this very talk page... QueenofBattle (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Just to be sure, assuming you mean the following, I believe it is accurate, neutral, and well written:
... In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which quickly raised his prominence within the national Democratic Party, and started speculation about a presidential future. ...
- --4wajzkd02 (talk) 04:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- QueenofBattle’s dislike of Obama is not a valid reason to remove a neutral, well-sourced, historically accurate description of Obama as a rising star in the national Democratic Party, which led to his selection to give the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
- This narrowly framed RFC: The Use of slang or informal language in a featured article was initiated on October 22, 2009 by Jayron32
based on their unsubstantiated claim that "rising star" was slang or informal English not used in professionally-written encyclopedia articles.
Both of these claims have been thoroughly refuted with extensive references to many dictionaries and many professionally-written Encyclopædia Britannica article.
- For seven months—from March 24, 2009 to October 21, 2009—this featured article said:
fully supported by a citation to these contemporaneous WP:Reliable sources:In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- Mendell, David (March 17, 2004). "Obama routs Democratic foes; Ryan tops crowded GOP field; Hynes, Hull fall far short across state". Chicago Tribune, p. 1.
- Davey, Monica (March 18, 2004). "As quickly as overnight, a Democratic star is born." The New York Times, p. A20.
- Howlett, Debbie (March 19, 2004). "Dems see a rising star in Illinois Senate candidate." USA Today, p. A04.
- Scheiber, Noam (May 31, 2004). "Race against history. Barack Obama's miraculous campaign." The New Republic, pp. 21–22, 24–26 (cover story).
- Finnegan, William (May 31, 2004). "The Candidate. How far can Barack Obama go?" The New Yorker, pp. 32–38.
- Dionne Jr., E. J. (June 25, 2004). "In Illinois, a star prepares." The Washington Post, p. A29.
- Mendell, David (2007). Obama: From Promise to Power New York: Amistad/HarperCollins. ISBN 0060858206, pp. 235–259.
- p. 247: "Word of Obama's rising star was now extending beyond Illinois, spreading especially fast through influential Washington political circles like blue-chip law firms, party insiders, lobbying houses."
- p. 268: "His campaign fund-raising was now moving at a furious pace and the buzz around him as a rising star was increasing by the hour."
- This historically accurate, reliably sourced sentence should not have been revised, as it was, by Unitanode on October 21, 2009,
in response to 67.60.50.5's comment just 55 minutes earlier on October 21, 2009 that this article was Way too biased,
changing:- "overnight" → "almost overnight" (changed by QueenofBattle on November 15, 2009 → "quickly")
- this article should be historically accurate and follow the cited reliable sources and say "overnight".
- Why be inaccurate and say "almost overnight" or vague and say "quickly"?
- this article should be historically accurate and follow the cited reliable sources and say "overnight".
- "made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party" → "raised his prominence within the national Democratic Party"
- this article should be historically accurate and follow the cited reliable sources and say "made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party".
- What prominence in the national Democratic Party did Obama previously have that was raised?
- Are "rising stars in the national Democratic Party" often selected to give the keynote address at Democratic National Conventions?
- Or are "raised prominences within the national Democratic Party" often selected to give the keynote address at Democratic National Conventions?
- this article should be historically accurate and follow the cited reliable sources and say "made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party".
- "overnight" → "almost overnight" (changed by QueenofBattle on November 15, 2009 → "quickly")
- Obama's rapid rise to national prominence in 2004:
- from February 2004 when he was in second place—and the least-known—of the five top Democratic U.S. Senate primary candidates in Illinois
- to December 2004 when he was on the cover of the year-end double issue of Newsweek as "Who's Next"—on the newsstand next to the year-end double issue of Time magazine with George W. Bush on the cover as Man of the Year
- is one of the most important parts of his biography, and this article should be historically accurate and follow the best, contemporaneous WP:Reliable sources available.
- Newross (talk) 05:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- WTF?! "QueenofBattle’s dislike of Obama is not a valid reason to remove a neutral, well-sourced, historically accurate description..." Who in the hell said I disliked Obama? How about we stick to the article and shy away from trying to assess other editors' motivations? Hell, I wasn't even the latest to remove the term "rising star"! It's uncivil and just plain uncalled for. My opposition to the use of the term "rising star" is largely because it is unencylopedic opinion, despite the many, many (and many, many) paragraphs Newross has devoted to defending or somehow attempting to justify it. Clear evidence that there is controversy surrounding the use of such a term. We don't win any arguments around here by dumping our homework on the table and giving an A to the heaviest pile. Pursuasion, compromise and consensus is the trick; yes, I'm sure I've read that somewhere... QueenofBattle (talk) 10:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- About the rising star. I don't see how this term is POV or incorrect in anyway. For someone to go from a single parent home to being the first African-American President, if that isn't someone who could be described as a "rising star" than it would be incorrect to call Einstein a genius, the Pope Holy, or to say Google's a search giant. His opposition can label him a 'celebrity', but 'rising-star' is far-fetched? Oh yeah, I forgot, 'celebrity' is, apparently, derogatory. 174.0.198.29 (talk) 05:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Of course, "genius" is a definitional term reserved for one with a very high IQ, while "holy" is a term for one who has been vested with certain religious trappings. "Rising star" and "giant" used as has been suggested are NPOV opinion, no matter how many times they are used in the press. QueenofBattle (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- About the rising star. I don't see how this term is POV or incorrect in anyway. For someone to go from a single parent home to being the first African-American President, if that isn't someone who could be described as a "rising star" than it would be incorrect to call Einstein a genius, the Pope Holy, or to say Google's a search giant. His opposition can label him a 'celebrity', but 'rising-star' is far-fetched? Oh yeah, I forgot, 'celebrity' is, apparently, derogatory. 174.0.198.29 (talk) 05:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- WTF?! "QueenofBattle’s dislike of Obama is not a valid reason to remove a neutral, well-sourced, historically accurate description..." Who in the hell said I disliked Obama? How about we stick to the article and shy away from trying to assess other editors' motivations? Hell, I wasn't even the latest to remove the term "rising star"! It's uncivil and just plain uncalled for. My opposition to the use of the term "rising star" is largely because it is unencylopedic opinion, despite the many, many (and many, many) paragraphs Newross has devoted to defending or somehow attempting to justify it. Clear evidence that there is controversy surrounding the use of such a term. We don't win any arguments around here by dumping our homework on the table and giving an A to the heaviest pile. Pursuasion, compromise and consensus is the trick; yes, I'm sure I've read that somewhere... QueenofBattle (talk) 10:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Instead of offering any evidence whatsoever, QueenofBattle's arguments are:
- POV-ish? I think so given that one doesn't refer to another they may dislike as a "star".
- Who in the hell said I disliked Obama? How about we stick to the article and shy away from trying to assess other editors' motivations? It's uncivil and just plain uncalled for.
- My opposition to the use of the term "rising star" is largely because it is unencyclopedic opinion.
- We don't win any arguments around here by dumping our homework on the table and giving an A to the heaviest pile.
- Newross (talk) 22:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Pardon, recall this article is on probation, so we should all try extra hard to WP:AGF, be WP:CIVIL, not turn into a WP:BATTLEGROUND, and, of course, WP:LSMFT. The latter being a humor injection attempt --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- And, Newross, exactly what is your point? I've been subjected to an ad hominem attack from you for which civility demands an apology, and your response is to repeat my comments as though one cannot easily read them no more than an inch of computer screen above. Am I the only one who's trying to figure our what kind of goofy parallel universe we have fallen into here? The term rising star is of an unencyclopedic tone and it is opinion, hence its use is not appropriate here. How many different ways do I need to say that?! QueenofBattle (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Pardon, recall this article is on probation, so we should all try extra hard to WP:AGF, be WP:CIVIL, not turn into a WP:BATTLEGROUND, and, of course, WP:LSMFT. The latter being a humor injection attempt --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Instead of offering any evidence whatsoever, QueenofBattle's arguments are:
(<-) Gosh, am I the only editor old and dumb enough to actually have smoked unfiltered Luckies?
- I completely agree that the accusation of QoB's political bias is unconstructive and unwarranted. Speculation of editors' motives is fruitless and generally "fighting words"; I'll also add that while I've not agreed with every edit QoB has made, I don't question that editor's scrupulous good faith.
- I also don't believe this (to me) minor issue of wording is worth the Sturm und drang. We've had more than one version of the text. The current text seems fine to me.
- I recognize that others haven't weighed in on this issue lately, but perhaps like me they thought it was already resolved? Or perhaps the issue isn't imprtant enough to bother?
Respectfully, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 21:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't see much of a difference between the two edits that seem to be causing so much back and forth. Perhaps if someone quoted a Democratic official proclaiming Obama a 'rising star' that could be inserted, but otherwise, what does it matter? Honestly, both entries seem relevant. Isn't there some sort of compromise that can be worked out? I don't see any real WP:POV pushing here, just wording differences. DD2K (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Proposed alternate version
I don't really care if we go with rising star, but I think the current phrasing (as cited by 4wajzkd02 above) is too wordy and somewhat awkward. Is the following better:
In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won in an unexpected landslide, finishing with 53% of the vote in a seven candidate field, and beating the runner-up by 29 percentage points. The win drew the attention of Democrats nationwide, prompting speculation about a possible Presidential campaign.
I dropped victory after landslide because its redundant (you wouldn't say he won in an unexpected victory). I also think the part about finishing 29 points ahead is currently too long. And most relevant to the issue at hand, changed out the last phrase to a more conversational form. Deserted Cities (talk) 05:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am also fine with this proposed wording (or something substantially similar to it). QueenofBattle (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Seeing no objection to my version, I've switched it. This doesn't close the issue on using "rising star," etc. Deserted Cities (talk) 22:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Changing:
- "landslide victory" → "victory"
- "29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival" → "beating the runner-up by 29 percentage points"
- is not a big deal; and hinges on whether you think "beating the runner-up" is more encyclopedic than "ahead of his nearest Democratic rival"; and whether you think reinforcing that the win was against Democratic primary opponents is helpful.
- Changing:
- The purpose of the last half of the sentence (which Deserted Cities broke off into a second sentence) was to highlight that Obama's unexpected landslide victory in the March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate Democratic primary election
made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party overnight and
started speculation about a presidential future overnight,
as supported by the cited best available contemporaneous WP:Reliable sources.- Being a rising star in the national Democratic Party guaranteed him a speaking role at the 2004 Democratic National Convention and put him on the shortlist to be considered—along with other rising stars—as a possible keynote speaker.
- Speculation in the news media about a possible presidential future, begat more speculation in the news media about a possible presidential future:
- in news profiles before his July 3, 2004 selection as convention keynote speaker
- in news profiles after the July 15, 2004 announcement of him as convention keynote speaker
- in news interviews at the convention before his July 27, 2004 keynote address
- in news commentary after his July 27, 2004 keynote address
- But Obama's unexpected landslide victory in the March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate Democratic primary election did not:
- directly "draw the attention of Democrats nationwide"
- directly "prompt speculation about a possible Presidential campaign”
- The purpose of the last half of the sentence (which Deserted Cities broke off into a second sentence) was to highlight that Obama's unexpected landslide victory in the March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate Democratic primary election
- The sources for this sentence report (and emphasize the suddenness with which)
Obama's unexpected March 16, 2004 U.S. Senate Democratic primary landslide victory made him
overnight (i.e. on March 17, 2004) a rising star in the national Democratic Party
(which is responsible for planning the Party's quadrennial presidential nominating conventions) and
overnight (i.e. on March 17, 2004) started speculation about a presidential future:- Brown, Mark (March 17, 2004). Voters warmed to Obama, the next hot politician. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 2:
Obama has the potential to be the most significant political figure Illinois has sent to Washington since Abraham Lincoln.
If he is elected in November, Obama will immediately replace Colin Powell as the person most talked about to be the first African-American elected president of the United States. That's a heavy load to put on any 42-year-old. Everybody who goes to the U.S. Senate thinks he's going to be president someday. Obama is one of the handful who really could be.
- Brown, Mark (March 17, 2004). Voters warmed to Obama, the next hot politician. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 2:
- The sources for this sentence report (and emphasize the suddenness with which)
- The sources for this sentence report Obama becoming a rising star "in the national Democratic Party"—
not "among Democrats nationwide":- Fornek, Scott (April 12, 2004). Obama's poll puts him far ahead of Ryan. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 7:
To some degree, the numbers mirror the primary results. Obama, 42, a state senator from Hyde Park, won a majority of 53 percent against six Democrats, while Ryan, 44, a Wilmette investment banker-turned-schoolteacher, won his eight-way nominating contest with a plurality of 36 percent.
Vying to become only the third African American elected to the U.S. Senate in the last 100 years, Obama has enjoyed mostly positive media coverage since his victory, with party leaders and pundits invariably dubbing him "a rising star." Last week, a CNN reporter dubbed Obama a "rock star-esque candidate."
- Fornek, Scott (April 12, 2004). Obama's poll puts him far ahead of Ryan. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 7:
- The sources for this sentence report Obama becoming a rising star "in the national Democratic Party"—
- I propose restoring the historically accurate, fully sourced sentence that was stable in this featured article for seven months—
from March 24, 2009 to October 21, 2009—prior to changes by:
Unitanode on October 21, 2009, QueenofBattle on November 15, 2009, and Deserted Cities on November 16, 2009
but making "national Democratic Party" wikilink to: Democratic_Party_(United_States)#Current_structure_and_composition
to make it crystal clear that Obama:- was only a "rising star" in the national Democratic Party
- was not a "rising star" among Democrats nationwide
- was not a "rising star" to the public at large
- was not a "rising star" to those who dislike Obama:
In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- Newross (talk) 02:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Proposal rejected. As you note, several editors have made edits to bring us to this point. Edits that have generally been met by acceptance in the spirit of collaboration by almost everyone except you, who seems to be failing to get the point. The current text is fine and reflects much consensus on this point. Enough is enough. QueenofBattle (talk) 02:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- I propose restoring the historically accurate, fully sourced sentence that was stable in this featured article for seven months—
- Or:
- retain the opening of Deserted Cities' November 16, 2009 revision:
In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won in an unexpected landslide, finishing with 53% of the vote in a seven candidate field, and beating the runner-up by 29 percentage points. The win drew the attention of Democrats nationwide, prompting speculation about a possible Presidential campaign.
- make the election results parenthetical with em dashes,
- change "and beating the runner-up by 29 percentage points" → "29 percentage points ahead of the runner-up"
- restore the closing of Newross' March 24, 2009 revision that accurately reflects the cited sources
and was stable in this featured article for seven months until October 21, 2009:In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won an unexpected landslide victory with 53% of the vote in a seven-candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of his nearest Democratic rival, which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- change "in the national Democratic Party" → "within the national Democratic Party
(the national attention mentioned in the cited sources was from leaders of the national Democratic Party, specifically: presumptive U.S. Presidential nominee John Kerry, U.S. Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, Democratic National Committee (DNC) chairman Terry McAuliffe, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC) chairman Jon Corzine):In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won in an unexpected landslide—finishing with 53% of the vote in a seven candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of the runner-up—which overnight made him a rising star within the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- retain the opening of Deserted Cities' November 16, 2009 revision:
- Newross (talk) 13:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Nope, still rejected. You haven't addressed the concerns of any of the other editors, you have merely restated your arguments. You have offered no collaboration, no compromise, no nothing. Until you do, we are going to have a real tough time moving forward on this. QueenofBattle (talk) 14:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Or:
New version
The entire basis for this RfC:
an unsubstantiated claim that the term rising star was slang and/or informal English not used in professionally-written encyclopedia articles,
has in the assessment of most editors who have commented here, been thoroughly refuted by evidence to the contrary.
Seeing no discussion of the legitimate issue that I have raised: that the latest revision no longer accurately reflected the cited sources,
I have implemented a version which does accurately reflect the cited sources:
In the March 2004 primary election, Obama won in an unexpected landslide—finishing with 53% of the vote in a seven candidate field, 29 percentage points ahead of the runner-up—which overnight made him a rising star within the national Democratic Party and started speculation about a presidential future.
- Mendell, David (March 17, 2004). "Obama routs Democratic foes; Ryan tops crowded GOP field; Hynes, Hull fall far short across state". Chicago Tribune, p. 1.
- Davey, Monica (March 18, 2004). "As quickly as overnight, a Democratic star is born." The New York Times, p. A20.
- Howlett, Debbie (March 19, 2004). "Dems see a rising star in Illinois Senate candidate." USA Today, p. A04.
- Scheiber, Noam (May 31, 2004). "Race against history. Barack Obama's miraculous campaign." The New Republic, pp. 21–22, 24–26 (cover story).
- Finnegan, William (May 31, 2004). "The Candidate. How far can Barack Obama go?" The New Yorker, pp. 32–38.
- Dionne Jr., E. J. (June 25, 2004). "In Illinois, a star prepares." The Washington Post, p. A29.
- Mendell, David (2007). Obama: From Promise to Power New York: Amistad/HarperCollins. ISBN 0060858206, pp. 235–259.
- p. 247: "Word of Obama's rising star was now extending beyond Illinois, spreading especially fast through influential Washington political circles like blue-chip law firms, party insiders, lobbying houses."
- p. 268: "His campaign fund-raising was now moving at a furious pace and the buzz around him as a rising star was increasing by the hour."
Newross (talk) 20:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- "Seeing no discussion ... have implemented a version...". Pardon, but no discussion should not by itself give leave to make a change, nor do I see that their has been consensus on your issue. Additionally, RFCs expire in a month. This was opened 1 month and 9 days ago, but discussion was still being held 17 days ago (a quick review indicates). So, as I understand it:
- if still open, I believe a change is procedurally incorrect,
- if closed, then the RFC can't be used to justify a change not documented as agreed to in the RFC.
- Cheers, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Before anybody reverts this, I'd like to advise we check ourselves and make sure our actions are not determined by dudgeon or prejudice, by which I mean perception of the "slanginess" of the Encyclopedia Britannica term "rising star". I do wish Newross would have considered the point I raised with him that the preponderance of his sources were dated to the time surrounding the convention speech and that this actually represents the notable period of ascent, but he is correct in everything he states, including the fact that the opposition to his suggestion had nothing whatsoever to do with the veracity of his claims and sources. 4's points are presumably valid, but protocol shouldn't take preference to the digestion of salient facts in determining the editorial value of so thoroughly researched and reliably sourced a suggestion. While this particular word is not a huge issue with me, the broader issue at play here—editors at this page trying to arrive at balance between facts and ideologies, especially when they are (or they imagined readers would be) put off by terms they wouldn't use, regardless of the preponderance of reliable sources who objectively have. Newross is clearly not of the delinquent ilk that previously marred these pages and it's the flat refusals to revisit initial reactions to consider his (yegads) ample sourcing that seem to be the break with editorial protocol that beg comment here. Abrazame (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- You make very good points.
- "Before anybody reverts","protocol shouldn't take preference " - I did not feel strongly enough about either version, nor about the process (What's that saying - there are no rules?) to revert.
- "not a huge issue with me" - nor with me. I suspect this may be why there's been little discussion - others may feel the same way.
- "Newross is clearly not of the delinquent ilk" - agree.
- "ample sourcing" - also agree, but...
- "slanginess" of the Encyclopedia Britannica term "rising star" and "balance between facts and ideologies" - my concern is regarding both issues.
- I believe that the term, as used (not in a quote) gives the perception that the article is not-neutral in that section. I thought there was a proposal to provide a quote from a notable source (e.g., "...such that the AP referred to him as a "...rising star in the Democratic party..."). This would address my concerns, and hopefully those of other editors. Cheers, --4wajzkd02 (talk)
- Respectfully, I didn't say "slanginess", I said "prejudice, by which I mean perception of the 'slanginess'..." It was an allusion to Stephen Colbert's illusory "truthiness". My point is that, given the usage by the Encyclopedia Britannica, the most highly regarded print encyclopedia, I don't think the previously expressed hunches about the term by a handful of editors at this page are valid. I mean no offense; I have had to admit I was wrong in my understanding of something a time or two at this page.
- You make very good points.
- Before anybody reverts this, I'd like to advise we check ourselves and make sure our actions are not determined by dudgeon or prejudice, by which I mean perception of the "slanginess" of the Encyclopedia Britannica term "rising star". I do wish Newross would have considered the point I raised with him that the preponderance of his sources were dated to the time surrounding the convention speech and that this actually represents the notable period of ascent, but he is correct in everything he states, including the fact that the opposition to his suggestion had nothing whatsoever to do with the veracity of his claims and sources. 4's points are presumably valid, but protocol shouldn't take preference to the digestion of salient facts in determining the editorial value of so thoroughly researched and reliably sourced a suggestion. While this particular word is not a huge issue with me, the broader issue at play here—editors at this page trying to arrive at balance between facts and ideologies, especially when they are (or they imagined readers would be) put off by terms they wouldn't use, regardless of the preponderance of reliable sources who objectively have. Newross is clearly not of the delinquent ilk that previously marred these pages and it's the flat refusals to revisit initial reactions to consider his (yegads) ample sourcing that seem to be the break with editorial protocol that beg comment here. Abrazame (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- As to "balance between facts and ideologies", that's something we must not strive for. Facts are facts and belong in an encyclopedia. Ideology is something that exists in a realm irrespective of facts that may or may not support that ideology; ideology causes prejudiced reactions against concepts it vomits back before digesting, rather than absorption of the facts. When current facts fly in the face of ideology, or of once-popular predictions, these editors decide to remove them, regardless of the veracity of the facts. Elsewhere on this page are mysteriously stalled discussions about article edits wherein reliably sourced facts were removed in favor of a neutered POV that ignores the facts. This is not the same as neutral POV, which accepts facts whether or not we like them or wish they had occurred due to some different policy or at some different point in time.
- To your suggestion that we use the term in a quote, that misses the whole point of Newross' sourcing. The whole point of all those refs (a thousand points of leitmotif?) is that this isn't a couple of people using the term, it's a good many, enough to warrant the usage outside of quotes. We did this elsewhere when, if I recall correctly, someone here was catering to pessimism about the economy's recovery thus far and so wanted to cite an actuarial fact as the opinion of a single economist. That's not a good editor's default position. We need to do our best to understand what is being discussed in an article and discern facts and figures (that can be simply declared) from feelings and ideologies (which, if relevant at all, would need to be quoted).
- Obama's celebrity was universally accepted in 2008, so much so that it was used against him by his detractors. As these many, m-a-n-y references prove, the potential of his celebrity was injected into the bloodstream of and felt throughout his party in the middle and latter part of 2004. This is Wikipedia. The whole point is that we are reporting what others have said. We don't need to put it all in quotes in order to make that point, it's a given as it is backed up by the refs. The objection that someone here raised, that someone reading might not use the phrase about Obama, misses the point (and is itself POV by proxy), as the whole point is that we are stating that Obama became this within his own party. This isn't about the presumed ideological prejudices of "someone reading the article", it's about Barack Obama. Dozens of sources acknowledge this as a fact. So clearly we can authoritatively acknowledge this as a fact without singling out one of these many sources. Such a thing would mislead the reader, as it suggests this was a characterization promoted by a single media outlet. The purpose of this article is not to represent the opinions of the AP, and not to cower from the specter of the hypothetical unpersuaded detractor of the president, but to represent facts.
- As I said, my persistence in this issue isn't simply to make this point in the service of this one word, but to extrapolate this throughout the discussions of reliably sourced facts that start only to stop short of digestion here. Salient and relevant facts shouldn't be removed, or mitigated, or relegated to quotes pinned on individuals or groups when they are in fact sourced to reliably sourced data and understood and represented in their proper context. Abrazame (talk) 23:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- You make more excellent points (and sorry for missing the allusion - I am slow, sometimes). Your key points, I believe, are (a) "enough to warrant the usage outside of quotes" and (b) "Facts are facts" (with the thought provoking note about "stalled discussions about article edits wherein reliably sourced facts were removed in favor of a neutered POV that ignores the facts"). No one should dispute point b. in any way (although I think that the editing process sometimes yields compromises as a counterbalance to long arguments - my recommendation regarding the use of quotes was such a compromise). As for point a., to what extent does WP:CONSENSUS come into play? On this topic, we've had lots of discussion, and even an RFC (which I think is still open), with clear consensus. It may be that other editors don't care enough about the fine point of using the phrase "rising star" or not to care to comment. Then what? You've certainly made me think hard about this issue.
- As I said, my persistence in this issue isn't simply to make this point in the service of this one word, but to extrapolate this throughout the discussions of reliably sourced facts that start only to stop short of digestion here. Salient and relevant facts shouldn't be removed, or mitigated, or relegated to quotes pinned on individuals or groups when they are in fact sourced to reliably sourced data and understood and represented in their proper context. Abrazame (talk) 23:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) For other editors who don't want to wade through all these millions of words yet would answer our call for them to join or revisit, I would distill and distinguish the elements that need to be addressed as follows:
- The most highly respected Encyclopedia Britannica freely uses the term "rising star" in the context of politicians. In light of this fact about the Encyclopedia Britannica, it's hard to see how consensus at Wikipedia would maintain that the term is "unencyclopedic".
- Seeing as how this preeminent usage wasn't represented in this discussion until after several editors weighed in with their prior conceptions that the phrase was unencyclopedic, it would help if they would revisit this particular element of the discussion and, after considering this fact and perhaps reviewing the examples, would declare whether their conception is steadfast in the face of this fact, or if this fact changes their perception.
- At the very beginning of this thread and prior to any referencing or supportive materials by Newross, three editors posited the solution of using quotes as a way of including the term. Reams of references later, all four official respondents to the RfC—three editors familiar to this page including myself and one invited by the RfC—voted unequivocally to support the statement without the use of quotes. This makes five clear-voiced votes to the RfC, subsequent to the references that support the term as encyclopedic and as widespread, in favor of the declarative usage, including Newross. The only clear-voiced vote against, though not officially cast, has been QueenofBattle. In fact, it is nearly only QueenofBattle who has been arguing against, and reverting, this point. For him to argue, in this context, that there is no consensus, simply because he doesn't agree, seems to fly in the face of the concept of RfCs, consensus, indeed the very idea of facts. Gordon Ecker came out in opposition of landslide and didn't weigh in on the shooting star term; however, after announcing that he would raise the issue at Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid, he didn't return to announce that there was absolutely no enthusiasm for denouncing the use of metaphor—in fact, our own Wikidemon having articulated the most thorough response against the broad suggestion, given the fact that common, plain language is so full of metaphor that we barely even notice it.
So while QueenofBattle sees no consensus, I see one person refusing to address the facts (QueenofBattle), one person sincerely considering the deeper issues but not yet having arrived at a position (4wajzkd02), a handful of people who weighed in at the outset with suggestions but no clear position before any references were presented and who have not returned to the discussion in almost a month and a half, indicating no intention to do so, and five people who have officially voted in favor of using the term, sans quotes, in the article. This is our consensus. Three proffering a suggestion but avoiding the discussion like the plague, five for, one against, one on the fence. Sounds like consensus to me. Abrazame (talk) 02:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I missed at least a million of the words in this discussion. But as I have stated before, I continue to dislike the informal metaphor "rising star", and see no reason to use it in this article. There are plenty of other formal and non-metaphorical ways to say the same thing, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone is arguing for the informal metaphor. If it is used, it will not wreck the article, but it will make it every so slightly less well written. LotLE×talk 02:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not refusing to address anything, so let's just lay off that tired attempt, shall we? What I have asked for, and what has yet to be provided, is a pursuasive arguement for making the change. All I see is the same discussion posted over and over, with no response to my questions. No effort to engage in a dialogue. No anything other than, once again, trying to pick a fight with me. If there are several editors "on the fence" (and there are), their views should not be disregarded simply because there are five "for". And, I agree with LotLE's point, immediately preceeding. What I can support is something to the effect of "...which according to [insert RS here] made him a rising star over night...," which I believe is in the spirit of NPOV and will help address the concerns of me, 4wajzkd02, (maybe LotLE, too?) and others. So, Abrazame and Newross, please tell the rest of us here, why this may not be acceptable to you, if it is not. QueenofBattle (talk) 17:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still here. I haven't commented because my opinion hasn't changed significantly. I could live with either version but prefer the one without "overnight" and "rising star" because those terms give an appearance of informality of tone and perhaps non-neutral bias. I believe they are used properly here and sourced, and that there is no actual bias, but they don't add significantly to the article and may cause slight loss of confidence because of the way they read. A more specific term, e.g. "by the next day" or "within several days" or the like, would do the trick. As an aside, I don't think anyone is disagreeing much on substance, only on wording, so if revert warring is a bad thing it's especially silly here. I don't think consensus is clear enough either way, or that failing consensus it's clear enough what the status quo version was, to really opine on how it should read pending a resolution to the discussion. Why not just draw straws, or let the most recent revert stand, whichever way that happens to be? - Wikidemon (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hearing (or seeing) no objection to my proposal from last week, I will make the change. Other than Newross, who seems hell-bent on having his/her way through a continual edit war, are there any other objections to this? QueenofBattle (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Like I tried to place in this absurdly long discussion about almost nothing, or very little difference, either version reads fine to me. Perhaps if someone finds a quote from a Democratic official proclaiming Barack Obama a 'rising star' they could quote and cite that official. That would read better than citing a media outlet. In any case, either version looks good. Perhaps we can discuss it in a non-aggressive fashion and come up with a consensus. I really don't think anyone is that far away from the other person, and this whole section is way too long and needs to be decided and archived. DD2K (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hearing (or seeing) no objection to my proposal from last week, I will make the change. Other than Newross, who seems hell-bent on having his/her way through a continual edit war, are there any other objections to this? QueenofBattle (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still here. I haven't commented because my opinion hasn't changed significantly. I could live with either version but prefer the one without "overnight" and "rising star" because those terms give an appearance of informality of tone and perhaps non-neutral bias. I believe they are used properly here and sourced, and that there is no actual bias, but they don't add significantly to the article and may cause slight loss of confidence because of the way they read. A more specific term, e.g. "by the next day" or "within several days" or the like, would do the trick. As an aside, I don't think anyone is disagreeing much on substance, only on wording, so if revert warring is a bad thing it's especially silly here. I don't think consensus is clear enough either way, or that failing consensus it's clear enough what the status quo version was, to really opine on how it should read pending a resolution to the discussion. Why not just draw straws, or let the most recent revert stand, whichever way that happens to be? - Wikidemon (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not refusing to address anything, so let's just lay off that tired attempt, shall we? What I have asked for, and what has yet to be provided, is a pursuasive arguement for making the change. All I see is the same discussion posted over and over, with no response to my questions. No effort to engage in a dialogue. No anything other than, once again, trying to pick a fight with me. If there are several editors "on the fence" (and there are), their views should not be disregarded simply because there are five "for". And, I agree with LotLE's point, immediately preceeding. What I can support is something to the effect of "...which according to [insert RS here] made him a rising star over night...," which I believe is in the spirit of NPOV and will help address the concerns of me, 4wajzkd02, (maybe LotLE, too?) and others. So, Abrazame and Newross, please tell the rest of us here, why this may not be acceptable to you, if it is not. QueenofBattle (talk) 17:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- A note of clarification to 4wajzkd02 regarding "a change is procedurally incorrect" if this RfC is still open, and to Wikidemon regarding "it's clear enough what the status quo version was." The status quo version for the seven months before this RfC—and for three days after this RfC was opened—was: "...which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party..."
- Why remove "overnight" which was literally true and was emphasized in multiple sources cited for the sentence?
- Why attribute "which made him a rising star within the national Democratic Party" to only one ("according to The New York Times") of the multiple sources cited for the sentence??
Newross (talk) 03:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- Because it doesn't sound right. Or it sounds less right than citing a source. Who is proclaiming Barack Obama a 'rising star'? Wikipedia? While it is sourced, it should be attributed to that source when writing the article. As for why the change, Wikipedia editors often changes the wording in articles in order to improve upon the project. I've been ambivalent for the most part on the wording, but I thought the last version was the best so far. Seeing as that seems to be the consensus, I am changing it back. Except for leaving 'overnight'. That is also cited. DD2K (talk) 04:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- Really and truly, if you can write something like "seeing as that seems to be the consensus," I think it's safe to say you haven't actually read this thread, right? Can we get some people up in here who have actually read what Newross has cited, if not my suggestion that there is consensus for Newross' edits or QueenofBattle's suggestion that his lone refusal to accept this and a lot of ambivalence in the face of the support I note means there is no consensus? Abrazame (talk) 09:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
It is inappropriate to attribute the term "rising star" solely to The New York Times when it was used ubiquitously—including the multiple sources (The New York Times, USA Today, Obama: From Promise to Power) cited for it.
There has been no consensus to change the accurate, fully sourced, pre-RfC wording: "...which overnight made him a rising star within the national Democratic Party..." Newross (talk) 15:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? Me, 4wajzkd02, LotLE, Wikidemon, DD2K all seem to be OK with the change. Newross and Abrazame seem to be the only two that believe in their version of consensus. The NYT is one of the RS that termed him a rising star, although not the only RS. Attributing it to the NYT is in no way inaccurate or inapproriate. QueenofBattle (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- But concensus isn't a vote and a great deal of the issues raised by yourself and various other editors have been answered ad naseum. Just using one of a half dozen sources reduces the WP:Weight of the rising star term to irrelevance. Because many major newspapers articles, news organizations, and books about the president use the term rising star, so should we because we have to use what the WP:RS say, unless you have found some sources that indicate that there is a dispute somewhere? I've heard the mighty Rush Limbaugh calling Obama a rising star, sarcastially mind you but rising star isn't a pov term unless you want it to be. I for one have issues with the reasons for its omission more so than its ommission itself. There is far too much wiki-lawyering over the point, which is itself very well supported by reliable sources. I doubt that the same standard is applied to many other articles for such a widely used term. 161.150.2.57 (talk) 21:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- (EC) I am OK with the change, and agree that the attribution seems fine. Regarding the latter, it seems that the concern is that attributing this to the NYT somehow diminishes the statement (i.e., implies that only the times provided this appellation). I don't read it that way. Regardless, ould adding something like "numerous sources, including the NYT," help? --4wajzkd02 (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. The discussion seems to carry much acrimony, not wrapped anymore around the use of the term, but rather about the attribution. I do not believe it is appropriate to present the term as an established fact. There are many RS using the term (as we have learned), but the question is no longer about RSourcing. It is about attribution of the term. Attribute it to the NYT or to any of the other RS (I don't give a flip), but we must attribute it to someone or someones. QueenofBattle (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- 4wajzkd02, I agree. I was going to add something like that myself. 'Numerous sources, including the NYT' seems like it would fit well within the article. DD2K (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- If we must 'attribute' the use of common english to a source, I'd recommend the AP given that they repersent like what, 1700 newspapers (including the NYT, and hundreds of other newspapers)and 5000 other news sources(radio and television mainly). Saying "the AP classified Barack Obama as a rising star" is equivilent to saying "Barack Obama is (or rather was in 2004) a rising star." considering that virtually every US newspaper uses the AP as a primary source and most international papers would default to the AP as well concerning issues such as this. I'm amazed at the level of wrangling over this. Are there any sources that disagree with Barack's rising star status? I can see the desire not to use 'is' statements, however in this case I doubt that level of caution is justified. A person going from an unknown to President of the United States in a perior of 4 years seems to need a term, and the term that has always been used in politics is rising star(of which Obama is one of the greatest examples in terms of his rise). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.88.102 (talk) 03:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Featured Article?
Obama has been President of the United States for 10 months only. For those of you who don't know, that's less than one year. As to why this is a featured article, while President George Bush's isn't, I have no clue. He hasn't done enough noteworthy things in his life to make this one of "Wikipedia's best articles". The man isn't even a year into his presidency yet! His life before his presidency is uneventful. In addition to all of that, much of this page demonstrates Wikipedia's major flaw of bias opinions in articles. Within the "Economic Management" section, it says "Various economists have credited the stimulus package with helping to create economic growth", and while it mentions the opinions of possibly only a few individuals, it mentions nothing about any opposing arguments made from any credible sources. This article is about a less-than-noteworthy individual to be a featured article and also fails to completely Wikipedia standards. i do not feel it should be a featured article and think that the star in the upper right hand corner should be removed. --Stevedietrich (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- This has been a featured article since well before he ran for president. "Featured Article" status is not a way of conferring an honor upon the subject of an article. Rather, it is a way of recognizing articles that are well-written and meet certain criteria for quality on Wikipedia. I'm really not sure I would call the President of the United States "less than noteworthy" but it doesn't really matter. Far less well-known subjects also have featured articles written about them. --Loonymonkey (talk) 21:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- (after edit conflict) Featured Articles are those that have appeared on the front page of Wikipedia, and have if necessary survived a review process to ensure that they are still of sufficient quality. The assessment is based on the quality of the article and, sometimes, interest to a general audience. They are not rewards to the article subject nor are they based in the case of people on their amount of experience or whether they deserve it. We can't go back in time to change history - the article was on the front page so it is a featured article. Why would you think that having Obama as a featured article would mean we should have Bush as opposed to, say, the Prime Minister of England or premier of some other country? They definitely are not tit-for-tat matters where featuring a thing of one persuasion necessitates featuring another for balance - although I'll note that on election day 2008 Obama's and John McCain's articles were both featured, a huge effort in terms of editing time and as far as I know a first for Wikipedia. If you want to know the process by which this became a featured article - twice - you can follow the links relating to the featured article nominations and reviews. If you have a specific suggestion for the economics section feel free to propose it but, again, "balance" is not really a goal here. It is to present the prevailing viewpoints and any significant minorities. Most, perhaps nearly all, economists would say that an economic stimulus of federal deficit spending does exactly that - it creates a short term stimulus to the economy. One of the cites I believe describes a "consensus" among economists, although if you read the sections immediately above this one there was a reasonable objection to using the word "consensus" even though the source said so. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Today's Featured Article is on Henry Wells (general). I'm not sure whom we need to feature as the tit-for-tat pair to Wells :-) (it indeed looks like a nice article, FWIW, of someone I had not myself heard of before today). LotLE×talk 22:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
I understand. Thank you for explaining this to me. However I think in response to the economy, that opposing views should be expressed right next to the supporting views, because balance I believe IS ESSENTIAL to a good, and certainly a featured Wikipedia page, or else the article becomes biased. If it only shows one side of the argument, then readers new to the subject may not even know objection exists, technically speaking. It is our jobs as contributors to Wikipedia to present facts and to give a reader understanding of a topic. I understand now why the article is Featured.--Stevedietrich (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- Balance does not mean that "the good" must be equally weighted by "the bad". Please familiarize yourself with WP:NPOV. Tarc (talk) 13:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"The man isn't even a year into his presidency yet!" - This statement indicates that only through a significant time period, in office, he can truly succeed. The truth is, this man has already won the nobel peace prize for his incredible efforts, both nationally and internationally. He has also, might i add, lived a very full and debated life before coming to his current position. If you think that people are only noteworthy when they have spent a reasonable time in office, then think again. This man has already a lot more to say for both his life, and presidency, than George bush. The fact is, this brilliant wikipedia article reflects his life fully. Stakingsin (talk) 13:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"this man has already won the nobel peace prize for his incredible efforts" -- Are you serious? "This man" himself said he has not earned this honor. While I agree with you that Barack is certainly noteworthy, I can not see how ANYONE could see the award as anything but a political statement by a small liberal-leaning group. And to say that this article with WP restrictions and limited space "reflects his life fully" is just a ludicrous. Codron (talk) 17:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Recent Afghanistan speech
Are people planning on creating a subarticle on this? If so where is the article being worked on? Remember (talk) 01:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I would think it would belong in the article on the Presidency of Barack Obama. This is a biographical article, and more time will need to pass before we know the biographical legacy on Barack Obama's life. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with OuroborosCobra, Presidency of Barack Obama is where it should be mentioned. 24.12.93.206 (talk) 23:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, we really need to resist dumping everything that happens while the man is president into his BLP. QueenofBattle (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- To keep our 1:5 ratio of substantive, straightforward responses at this page, I'd note that User:Remember was not suggesting it be added to this article, and tell him that it's my guess from these responses (and no others) that no editor active at this page is working on one. You would be welcome to try your hand at creating one yourself if you'd like. It may prove useful in determining what, if anything, to distill about the speech and/or reaction to it to the Presidency or Public image articles. Good luck. Abrazame (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, we really need to resist dumping everything that happens while the man is president into his BLP. QueenofBattle (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
img not showing up?
Is it just me or is the image under the "Presidency" section not showing up? (File:US_President_Barack_Obama_taking_his_Oath_of_Office_-_2009Jan20.jpg) Despite the code appearing correct the thumbnail image is not being generated. [[File:US President Barack Obama taking his Oath of Office - 2009Jan20.jpg|thumb|right|Barack Obama takes the [[oath of office]] of the president of the United States.]]
I already refreshed the page but no image...It only seems to show up when I specify the image size right after the file name.
-- GateKeeper (talk) @ 08:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- I see that image in the Presidency section fine, at the appropriate size. Can anybody explain why this user is having this trouble? Abrazame (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Is the right chart filled out currectly?
Banned user |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It says [3] next to "christian" for his religon which should not be mentioned... if it should be mentioned I doubt that's accurate and I don't see anything about how he got to be Senator of Ilinois. he was not native to that state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B.o.isdevil (talk • contribs) 18:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
|
Afghanistan
Starting a new section though there is a similar one above. Obviously we currently have a section on Afghanistan, but it is now outdated given recent events. The speech last week was by far his most important statement to date, and discussing the newest strategy is a bigger deal then mentioning the fact that McChrystal replaced McKiernan. I don't think we should necessarily expand that section (or only expand it slightly), but rather condense what we have now and then update the situation, probably using some of the basics here and elsewhere (I'm not sure which sub-article, if any, in the "Obama series" has the latest info on the war in Afghanistan).
Are there any objections to me working on some revisions along these lines? I'm not trying to import every detail from his presidency into his bio article, but since we already talk about Afghanistan and would at least behoove us to keep the information current. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 23:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- No objections by me. I believe it's a good idea to update the main page with a mention that the POTUS gave a significant speech on the war and is sending X amount of new troops.
- Although most of the new information should go into the Presidency_of_Barack_Obama article, there should definitely be a mention here too. DD2K (talk) 00:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Considering that it does represent a major policy decision, and possibly his most significant action regarding Afghanistan to date in his presidency, I would support revising the section. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
why isnt obama being the FIRST president to use a teleprompter not their? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gofrog1 (talk • contribs) 01:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well first, this comment doesn't belong here. Secondly, President Obama is not the first President to use a teleprompter, Dwight D. Eisenhower was. Truman could have been the first, but declined to use one. Every other President after Eisenhower used one at one time or the other. President Reagan used a teleprompter almost exclusively:
- Also, the main reason President's like Reagan and Obama use a teleprompter is because they are good at it and it's more comfortable for them to use than the index cards that were used before(and still in some cases). I hope that answers your seemingly innocent question. DD2K (talk) 01:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Getting back to Afghanistan, I recommend keeping the addition to the Afghan war section short, as for example, adding these two sentences to the end of the current last paragraph: "McChrystal requested still more reinforcements in a report submitted the following August. After an extensive policy review, Obama announced in a speech at West Point that he would send an additional 30,000 U.S. troops, with the expectation that troop levels could be reduced again after 18 months." I think that covers the vital points: the source of the request, the fact that there was a substantial review, the notable venue for the announcement, and the idea that Obama views it as a temporary increase. We could give the duration of the review, since it was much remarked upon, but I think it's a little too minor for inclusion. At first I thought we'd need to say that McChrystal was implementing a counterinsurgency plan, but on review I think it's already implied by the earlier mention that McChrystal was chosen because his background made him a good choice to implement a counterinsurgency strategy. We might soon want to add a short sentence on the debate that accompanies the congressional financial authorization, if enough Democrats oppose and Republicans support to make the party reversal notable. CouldOughta (talk) 04:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
First Nobel peace prize winner who leads two wars
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Please add this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.47.238 (talk) 20:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
(<-) WP:DNFTT - WP:SOAPBOXing editor previously blocked for WP:3RR, misuse of multiple IPs for block evasion, as documented here --4wajzkd02 (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC) |
Attempts on life?
Nothing is said on the attempts on his life of which there were allegedly four. Kind of useful information considering that he is the prez 99.236.221.124 (talk) 05:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
See the articles 2008 Barack Obama assassination scare in Denver and Tennessee.--JayJasper (talk) 05:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
- The IP referred to "allegedly four" attempts. Were there more than two documented? --4wajzkd02 (talk) 21:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
First African-American President?
It is not definitively known who was the first African-American president, and evidence exists that other presidents besides Obama may have had African American ancestry. Evidence is particularly strong for Warren G. Harding, who in some reports is stated as saying he himself had no idea whether or he was of African American ancestry. The Harding case has been studied extensively in academia, and through genealogical reports there is a very strong case to be made that Harding may indeed be the first african american president. As such i believe that the sentence stating that barak obama is the first african american president be changed to either state that he is possibly the first african american president rather than the definitive statement that is currently in the article. I had previously changed this and added a footnote from a reliable academic source from yale. The change would only add one word of prose to the text, and would allow this article to conform with the Warren G. Harding article which states (and has so for quite some time) that President Harding could possibly be the first African American president.XavierGreen (talk) 15:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- Obama is credited by the vast majority of sources to be the first African-American president. Obscure, speculative, or technical arguments to the contrary aren't enough for Wikipedia to go against the grain on this. Race is a socially constructed concept, albeit with some roots in ancestory, appearance, genetics, ethnicity, etc. Harding did not self-identify and was not perceived by others as African-American during his lifetime - in fact, he denied it and the only public proponent of the notion was a racist antagonist who dug up old family rumors and scandals that Harding wanted suppressed. The question is not whether there is a traceable tie to an ancestor from Africa. We all have African ancestry. But in this case there is very little dispute that Obama is African-American, and very little acceptance now or during his lifetime that Harding was. The source in the Harding article says that if it had been revealed that Harding had an African ancestor, then the whites of America would have rejected him as black according to the [racist] one-drop rule at the time. Those two qualifications are important. He never was revealed to be black so it's all a contingent argument, and if he had been it would have been according to the standards of the time, not today's standards. By today's evidence and standards, Obama is African-American and Harding was not. All of this could make an interesting footnote to the Obama article, akin to the New York Times piece on the subject, but the article is too long to get into tidbits. Once we get into ancestry and genealogy, Obama is related to Dick Cheney and the British royal family. We could devote entire articles to distant relations. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wikidemon is absolutely right. People thought of him as being a White person. Even if there were Blacks/African-Americans in his family tree, that wouldn't make him Black/African-American. Barack Obama is the first Black/African-American President. Harding shouldn't be able to get that honor based on a technicality. SMP0328. (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- I agree totally with Wikidemon. The only 'evidence' that Harding had African ancestry is from his political opponents that tried to pin the label on his for political reasons and as a derogatory hit piece. According to the theory of evolution, we all came from Africa. Small technicalities that have no basis in fact don't belong in a WP:BLP. There is no concrete proof. In fact, the innuendo is flimsy at best. DD2K (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- There were allegations that the Harding family had African American ancestry before Warren G. Harding was even born. This is not an issue of race, it is an issue of origin. You have confused race with origin. It is possible to be an African-American and not see oneself as being black. The term African-American does not constru self identified race. The wikipedia definition of African American states "In the United States, the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." Had the article stated that Barack Obama was the first black president i would not have brought the arguement up, however it states that he is the first African-American president. I do not advocate removing the sentence, only to insert the word possibly as there is still doubt from reliable academia. As for the arguement that Obama should not be denied the honor of being black, i think that would be a unsourcable matter of opinion.XavierGreen (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- As per Wikipedia:BLP the entire sentance would have to be removed, as there is no way to identify whether or not Barak Obama was indeed the first African American president.XavierGreen (talk) 19:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- The keyword there is "allegations"; we're talking about a period of history where accusing someone of having "Negro blood" was a serious slur. There is little to substantiates these things about past presidents, none of whom was ever widely described as being anything but Caucasian. We're not about to insert dubious qualifiers like "probably" into this article. Tarc (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- That Obama is the first African-American president is verified by the vast majority of reliable sources. There's no mistake about the term - African American, which in American discourse is more or less synonymous with black, refers to race as socially constructed, a blend of self and external identification, not distant or speculative ancestry. At any rate, the job of the encyclopedia is to report what the sources say (that Obama is the first AA president) and then if necessary explain that for the reader, not to decide on our own definitions in advance then try to fit the facts into them. It is an interesting historical footnote, and would make an interesting footnote here, to say something like "Although Obama is the first president known to be of recent black African ancestry, and the first to be acknowledged generally as African-American, there were allegations made during the lifetime of a former president, Warren Harding, that Harding's great-grandmother was black." However, there are very few sources for this historical curiosity, and not enough as a WP:WEIGHT matter for Wikipedia to go against the grain of the sources. That may be useful in a different article. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- I did not make up this definition i am espousing, it is present on the African-American page, it is not synonymous with the term black. The term African-American refers to ethnicity similar to German-American or Mexican-American, whilst the term black refers to race such as white or latino do. Not all of the sources state Obama is the first african-american president. There are even books on the subject that state he is not. I do agree that there is a signifigant difference between Obama and Harding, so would adding the word self-identified with a footnote be a more acceptable solution? The statement currenty in the text does not comform toWikipedia:BLP as it cannot be completely verified because there are sources stating to the contrary. As for weight, there are dozens of sources which suggest that Harding is of African-American ancestry. There are sources from Yale University stating this. Now if you don't regard that as a reputable source what do you?XavierGreen (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- The question of BLP violations, and removing the statement that Obama is the first African American president, are red herrings and don't bear further discussion, at least not from me. We have broad consensus to the point of adding a FAQ (see #2, above), and the overwhelming weight of the sources. As far as I know there are no reliable sources that say Obama is not the first AA president on account of there being an AA before him, and scant few that claim that he isn't AA because of some different version of AA. Regarding whether Harding is worth a footnote or parenthetical comment here, I haven't seen many sources that mention the theories regarding Harding's ancestry in the context of Obama (sources that discuss Harding outside of the context of Obama are impertinent, because describing them in the article would constitute WP:SYNTH). A few sources, even a few thousand, does not establish much weight next to the hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions that describe Obama as the first AA president. I think we've laid out our positions, and my opinion is as I said that it's interesting but not substantial enough to be worth a mention here. You're welcome to try to gain consensus and if the balance of other editors here thought it is worth mentioning I would defer to that. But it seems a long shot. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- German Americans are Americans of German descent, not persons born in Germany. I doubt that a discussion that has lasted only 6 hours could be considered to have reached consensus. As for a reliable source, Harding himself stated that he did not know if he was of African-American decent or not, and left the possibility open. See http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/nov08/. Another possible solution that would allievate my concerns, would be to change the word African-American to black and add a footnote about Harding. That change would seem to be acceptable since you believe the two words are one and the same.XavierGreen (talk) 22:04, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- As for FAQ#2 it does not address my concerns as i am not putting forth the arguement that Obama is not an African American, which is the scope of that faq.XavierGreen (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- The overwhelming consensus, and reliable sourcing, indicate Barack Obama is the first African American President. There would have to be at least some sort of reliable information to even consider changing the lede. There is not, it's all speculation and innuendos, and there is no possible way that it will be or should be changed. We are not going to change the wording on the fact that Obama is the first AA President because of some accusations made towards Harding or his family. That should be the end of this. No criteria for change.DD2K (talk) 23:12, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- The question of BLP violations, and removing the statement that Obama is the first African American president, are red herrings and don't bear further discussion, at least not from me. We have broad consensus to the point of adding a FAQ (see #2, above), and the overwhelming weight of the sources. As far as I know there are no reliable sources that say Obama is not the first AA president on account of there being an AA before him, and scant few that claim that he isn't AA because of some different version of AA. Regarding whether Harding is worth a footnote or parenthetical comment here, I haven't seen many sources that mention the theories regarding Harding's ancestry in the context of Obama (sources that discuss Harding outside of the context of Obama are impertinent, because describing them in the article would constitute WP:SYNTH). A few sources, even a few thousand, does not establish much weight next to the hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions that describe Obama as the first AA president. I think we've laid out our positions, and my opinion is as I said that it's interesting but not substantial enough to be worth a mention here. You're welcome to try to gain consensus and if the balance of other editors here thought it is worth mentioning I would defer to that. But it seems a long shot. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- I did not make up this definition i am espousing, it is present on the African-American page, it is not synonymous with the term black. The term African-American refers to ethnicity similar to German-American or Mexican-American, whilst the term black refers to race such as white or latino do. Not all of the sources state Obama is the first african-american president. There are even books on the subject that state he is not. I do agree that there is a signifigant difference between Obama and Harding, so would adding the word self-identified with a footnote be a more acceptable solution? The statement currenty in the text does not comform toWikipedia:BLP as it cannot be completely verified because there are sources stating to the contrary. As for weight, there are dozens of sources which suggest that Harding is of African-American ancestry. There are sources from Yale University stating this. Now if you don't regard that as a reputable source what do you?XavierGreen (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- That Obama is the first African-American president is verified by the vast majority of reliable sources. There's no mistake about the term - African American, which in American discourse is more or less synonymous with black, refers to race as socially constructed, a blend of self and external identification, not distant or speculative ancestry. At any rate, the job of the encyclopedia is to report what the sources say (that Obama is the first AA president) and then if necessary explain that for the reader, not to decide on our own definitions in advance then try to fit the facts into them. It is an interesting historical footnote, and would make an interesting footnote here, to say something like "Although Obama is the first president known to be of recent black African ancestry, and the first to be acknowledged generally as African-American, there were allegations made during the lifetime of a former president, Warren Harding, that Harding's great-grandmother was black." However, there are very few sources for this historical curiosity, and not enough as a WP:WEIGHT matter for Wikipedia to go against the grain of the sources. That may be useful in a different article. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- The keyword there is "allegations"; we're talking about a period of history where accusing someone of having "Negro blood" was a serious slur. There is little to substantiates these things about past presidents, none of whom was ever widely described as being anything but Caucasian. We're not about to insert dubious qualifiers like "probably" into this article. Tarc (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
(<-)As te editor that reverted XavierGreen's addition on this topic, I agree with those that oppose the addition (everyone else who has commented, so far). --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
*Digging even a little further into this, I see that this has been removed numerous times from the Warren G. Harding article, and it doesn't belong even there. Wikipedia editor Stude62 provides a long explanation why this does not belong on Wikipedia, and then again here.
*Hardings ancestry is listed here, and there is nothing there about any African American ancestors. This addition is nothing but innuendos and accusations to this portion of Harding's life. This not only doesn't belong in the Barack Obama article, it doesn't belong in the Warren G. Harding article(except for mentioning that it was a racial attack made by Harding's opponents), and surely doesn't belong in the List of African American firsts as this same editor inserted here. Someone should contact an admin and have these removed. Giving a NYT link that discusses the issue but provides no proof means nothing. The same with claiming that Yale is a reliable source. Neither pieces prove anything and there is nothing to the pieces but accusations made by other people. DD2K (talk) 03:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- What about the words spoken by President Harding himself? The source you cited for his ancestry is not complete, nor does Ancestry.com regulary state the ethnicity of anyone. Such a presumtion that it infers anything would be synthesis. I did not edit the Warren Harding article to state what is there currently, someone else did and i would not have used the source they suggested as there are more reputable sources such as the one i presented earlier. I do believe it belongs somewhere, and if i am turned down here that does not mean that it should not be listed on the African American firsts page.XavierGreen (talk) 05:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to erase history here, certainly Obama can stand up for himself BLP-wise. That Harding was accused of being of African descent (by a racist, but not without some basis, and without insinuating that African ancestry is anything to be disparaged) is certainly true. Perhaps he was. That is information of an encyclopedic nature. The issue, I think, is where to put it and how to describe it. I have been advocating that this main article about Obama is not the best place. That doesn't mean we should ignore it though. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- His own words? You mean when he said "how do I do" or something like that, when asked if one of his ancestors ever 'jumped the fence'? That's your proof? Listen, 75 years from now if some editor tries to edit the Barack Obama article with notes from the Jerome Corsi book to claim Obama was the first Kenyan born American President, there would be the same reaction. You can't use cited text from a political attack book, with no basis in mainstream reality, to make claims on Wikipedia. Where it should be mentioned is the Warren G Harding article, and only there as a political attack. There is absolutely no basis in fact for these claims. DD2K (talk) 11:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- What about the words spoken by President Harding himself? The source you cited for his ancestry is not complete, nor does Ancestry.com regulary state the ethnicity of anyone. Such a presumtion that it infers anything would be synthesis. I did not edit the Warren Harding article to state what is there currently, someone else did and i would not have used the source they suggested as there are more reputable sources such as the one i presented earlier. I do believe it belongs somewhere, and if i am turned down here that does not mean that it should not be listed on the African American firsts page.XavierGreen (talk) 05:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
His former pastor/alias
Answered, no reason to leave thread open. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Why isn't his former anti americain pastor mentioned in his page. He called this man his mentor and a mentor is one who helps create a man. Also why isn't his alias mentioned in the page. Barry Sotto or however it was spelled. These are signs of the liberal bias that is always be thrown at wikipedia. If you wish to be taken serious then include the bad with the good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.101.172.61 (talk) 04:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Often in wikipedia, a persons mentor is mentioned in their bio. By hiding his, we are covering up Barracks influences in his life. Also my mention of Barry Sotto has nothing to do with his citizenship. I just think its important to name a persons AKA's in their bio. Example my name is Daniel but I have been known as Danny. Therefore if I had a wiki bio I would want that included. Barrack Bio should include his also known as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.101.172.61 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
|
Coverage of Controversies?
I notice that conservative political profiles have mentioned on them scandals and public criticisms such as Palin's (McCain's this time last year was noticeably critical, unlike Obama's) yet not liberals. I imagine this to be because of the disproportionate impact liberals have on the internet, a fact, by the way, which is statistically provable. According to the 2009 political typology report by the Pew Research Center, there are 9 different profiles of voters, 3 Republican, 3 Democrat, and 3 Moderate. The 17% that are overwhelmingly socially liberal (19% of registered voters), and the only wealthy one of the 3 Democrat groups, are also the group of all 9 to go online most frequently for their news (37%, with no other group but the Moderate Upbeats, at 34%, close - no other group but the Republican Enterprisers is at even 26%).
http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=945
At any rate, I am proposing the following section, although, I notice that Wikipedia is now changing to avoid sections labeled 'Political Controversies' even though I noticed another politician with just such a section just today, so perhaps it would be best to not label it that, but instead make it merely historical referenced, as part of his senate career:
=========================
Political Controversies
Support for 'Infanticide'
Former 2004 Senate opponent Alan Keyes, who entered the 2004 Senate race after Obama's original opponent, Jack Ryan, dropped out due to a sex scandal, began accusing Obama just one day after entering the race of taking the 'slaveholder's position' because Obama termed children surviving late-term abortions "fetus]es]" and supported the right of hospitals to let them die of abandonment
[1]. Obama in 2003, before the Illinois Senate, questioned whether a bill known as the Born Alive Infants Protection Act could be summarized as follows:[2]
"Senator O’Malley, the testimony during the committee indicated that one of the key concerns was – is that there was a method of abortion, an induced abortion, where the — the fetus or child, as – as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the womb. And one of the concerns that came out in the testimony was the fact that they were not being properly cared for during that brief period of time that they were still living. Is that correct? Is that an accurate sort of descriptions of one of the key concerns of the bill?"
After Senator O'Malley answered in the affirmative, Senator Obama's reply included the following:
"Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a nine-month-old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute. For that purpose I think it would probably be found unconstitutional. The second reason that it would probably be found unconstitutional is that this essentially says that a doctor is required to provide treatment to a previable child, or fetus, however way you want to describe it. Viability is the line that has been drawn by the Supreme Court to determine whether or not an abortion can or cannot take place. And if we're placing a burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as -- as is necessary to try to keep that child alive, then we're probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality."
During his time in the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama would vote against other bills addressing this subject of 'live birth abortion', including the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (which included statements by Senator Cullerton that closely mirrored the aforementioned and later arguments of Obama)[3] and the Induced Birth Infants Liability Act (with both Senators Obama and Cullerton speaking, Obama elaborating).[4]
In August of 2008, Factcheck.org officially recognized some truth to the claims of infanticide, stating "We find that, as the NRLC said in a recent statement, Obama voted in committee against the 2003 state bill that was nearly identical to the federal act he says he would have supported. Both contained identical clauses saying that nothing in the bills could be construed to affect legal rights of an unborn fetus, according to an undisputed summary written immediately after the committee's 2003 mark-up session."[5]
Chicago Politics
As reported on by the Chicago Tribune[6] and later the Houston Press' Todd Spivak[7], Obama defeated early political opponents by challenging their petition signatures. In this way he was able to defeat activist and popular incumbent Alice Palmer, who had earlier supported him, when she was forced to hurriedly collect petition signatures before the filing deadline.
As Spivak points out about the legislative record of Senator Obama, "It's a lengthy record filled with core liberal issues. But what's interesting, and almost never discussed, is that he built his entire legislative record in Illinois in a single year." Then Senate Majority Leader Emil Jones was approached by young Senator Barack Obama, who told him "You have the power to make a United States Senator."[8]
During his last year in the Illinois Senate Obama sponsored 26 bills that were passed into law. Jones had Obama craft legislation dealing with key issues in the news. But what is more, as reported on by Spivak, "Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills. 'I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen,' State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. 'Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.'"
==
Now, all of those are mainstream criticisms of Barack Obama. I would like to see the reasoning behind those who would deny the inclusion of them. I would also ask, if there is a consensus to be achieved on whether to put this in, how long will it take, and how will it be decided? After all, if hypothetically, liberals were more obtuse in refusing to allow criticisms of Obama yet conservatives were able to agree to allow valid criticisms of conservative candidates, would that mean that just because one side is hypocritically unjust in disallowing a consensus that variable and discriminatory means should be permitted to coexist?
--Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? This isn't a political advertisement website that has a place for one side or the other to post their political adds against political figures. If you want to go around Wikipedia and accuse WP:BLP of killing children, you're not going to last very long. My suggestion for you is to either drastically reduce the size of your last edit here(there is a 500 word limit) and strike the portions that are purposely inflammatory, or just revert the whole thing. DD2K (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hey, hey, hey, keep the ad hominems to yourself. If you want to accuse me of using political ads then why don't you say what part of the heavily sourced facts you disagree with? Those are major sources I'm using to back up every little statement, even the inflections and tones of voice, when referring to Obama. The least you can do is state what you disagree with.
- I am not sure if those citations I gave are easily clicked on, I was trying to figure out how, so they may not work here in the discussion, but I will post them out.
- 1. Keyes assails Obama's abortion views, August 9, 2004, [13], Associated Press.
- 2. State of Illinois General Assembly 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 30, 2001, [14], pages=85-87 2009.
- 3. State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 18, 1997, [15], pages=61-63.
- 4. Obama and 'Infanticide', FactCheck.org, August 25, 2008, [16].
- 5. Barack Obama knows his way around a ballot, Chicago Tribune, April 3, 2007, [17].
- 6. Barack Obama and Me, Houston News, February 26, 2008, [18].
- 7. Obama: How He Learned to Win, Time Magazine, May 8, 2008, [19].
- 8.
- Look, I could play you and take the other side and say you shouldn't have the negative stuff about the Bridge to Nowhere or her governorship stuff on Sarah Palin's website because this isn't a place for 'political ads'. Just because it's politically controversial does not mean it is untrue, un-historical, factually inaccurate, or defamatory. It's only defamatory if not very clearly true and unsourced. Which is why I challenge you to back up your accusations against me and show even one word I said that is a matter of opinion rather than simply covering the subjects.
- It's because I don't think Wikipedia should treat itself like a political campaign website that I am opposing you on this. You're treating Obama's page here like a glorified billboard praising his beautiful attributes while avoiding anything critical of him, and denying the very different manner of approach used elsewhere for politicians on Wikipedia. I am saying that you should do one or the other. Either be willing to show the factual criticisms of him, or remove the criticisms for all other politicians.
- And again, if you think I am being opinionated or not backing up any statements in any way - then show how. Say it. Where's the beef? I wrote a well-sourced article and if you're going to throw around attacks like that against it and against me, then at least show the courtesy of saying why you disagree with them. Anyone can accuse an article or article writer. It's a whole other thing to actually provide reasoned arguments and logic-based critiques.
- As soon as I wrote this, I had someone come on my page and tell me I had to be [censored] kidding. Another one who wasn't even a moderator came and told me the post was reverted and then laughed when I asked them why it was reverted, told me I needed to get my eyes checked. There is a liberal community on the web that composes less than 20% of the American populace but will exert their influence over the rest of society whenever they can to further their agendas by silencing free speech through whatever means necessary.
We saw that in the large scale with the leaking of the climate change emails, which showed the liberal members of the scientific community were willing to go so far as bias in peer review and discrimination to remove or disallow all alternate points of view - and any evidence that did not fit their beliefs.
- --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
NPOV
This article is blatantly in favor of Obama. There isn't even a criticisms area. In the economic section, not a word is devoted to any of the bailouts made available to Wall Street or foreign banks. Nothing is stated about the trillions the Fed handed over to recipients they refuse to disclose. The AIG scandal is left completely out. There is nothing in this article that lends any opposing voice to Obama's presidency.
I believe I'm done editing Wikipedia articles. Places have turned into travel brochures instead of accurate representations of the areas (Downtown Eastside is an excellent example of this propagandizing) and living persons are often idolized. When an individual steps up to fix the article, it is often removed by rabidly partisan Wiki-ers. Wikipedia is nothing like it was in years past. What began as an honest attempt is now a mouthpiece in a popularity contest.
NoHitHair (talk) 23:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Probably because you are looking in the wrong article. Most of those things would be in the Presidency of Barack Obama, not this, which is a biography of the man, not a play by play of his presidency. Have fun leaving though, it's always great to work with people who shout a lot and then say they hate you. Don't let the Internet ports slam in your ass as you close them. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- ^ "Keyes assails Obama's abortion views". Associated Press. August 9, 2004. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ "State of Illinois General Assembly 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript" (PDF). Illinois General Assembly. March 30, 2001. pp. 85–87. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ "State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript" (PDF). Illinois General Assembly. March 18, 1997. pp. 61–63. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ "State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript" (PDF). Illinois General Assembly. April 4, 2002. pp. 30–35. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ Henig, Jess (August 25, 2008). "Obama and 'Infanticide'". FactCheck.org. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ Jackson, David (April 3, 2007). "Barack Obama knows his way around a ballot". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
{{cite news}}
: Unknown parameter|coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help) - ^ Spivak, Todd (February 26, 2008). "Barack Obama and Me". Houston News. Retrieved December 17, 2009.
- ^ Weisskopf, Michael (May 8, 2008). "Obama: How He Learned to Win". Time Magazine. Chicago,IL. Retrieved May 8, 2008.