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::::Perhaps we should request a checkuser to find out if that IP is your sockpuppet. You have a history of editing articles to insert references to The Post Chronicle. I wonder if you are an employee of the company, or perhaps are [[Marc Centanni]] himself. This is certainly a matter that bears further investigation. There is nothing "libelous" about pointing out that a Web site's disclaimer of responsibility makes it unsuitable for use as a reliable source on Wikipedia. That's a statement of opinion, protected by the First Amendment. I suggest that you perhaps should review media law. You should also review [[WP:NLT|our no legal threats policy]], which states that users who make legal threats against the encyclopedia or its users will be indefinitely blocked. [[User:FCYTravis|FCYTravis]] ([[User talk:FCYTravis|talk]]) 11:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC) |
::::Perhaps we should request a checkuser to find out if that IP is your sockpuppet. You have a history of editing articles to insert references to The Post Chronicle. I wonder if you are an employee of the company, or perhaps are [[Marc Centanni]] himself. This is certainly a matter that bears further investigation. There is nothing "libelous" about pointing out that a Web site's disclaimer of responsibility makes it unsuitable for use as a reliable source on Wikipedia. That's a statement of opinion, protected by the First Amendment. I suggest that you perhaps should review media law. You should also review [[WP:NLT|our no legal threats policy]], which states that users who make legal threats against the encyclopedia or its users will be indefinitely blocked. [[User:FCYTravis|FCYTravis]] ([[User talk:FCYTravis|talk]]) 11:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC) |
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::::And yes, it is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ashley_Alexandra_Dupré&diff=prev&oldid=200045973 blatantly] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ashley_Alexandra_Dupré&diff=200045973&oldid=200045933 obvious] that you and the IP are the same person. I've a mind to block you for sockpuppetry and legal threats immediately, unless you drop the act and start making a rational case for why PostChronicle.com's gossip should be considered a reliable source. [[User:FCYTravis|FCYTravis]] ([[User talk:FCYTravis|talk]]) 11:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC) |
::::And yes, it is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ashley_Alexandra_Dupré&diff=prev&oldid=200045973 blatantly] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ashley_Alexandra_Dupré&diff=200045973&oldid=200045933 obvious] that you and the IP are the same person. I've a mind to block you for sockpuppetry and legal threats immediately, unless you drop the act and start making a rational case for why PostChronicle.com's gossip should be considered a reliable source. [[User:FCYTravis|FCYTravis]] ([[User talk:FCYTravis|talk]]) 11:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: Sherlock, err...Travis, don't quit your day job. And take a course on how the internet works, mainly about IP numbers, sharing and spoofing. While I admit to residing in the state of NJ, I am in no way shape or form connected to this company. Wikipedia is pretty cool but it is also a haven for little "Eichman's" who have elevated senses of self worth. I visit that site every day, have talked with management and I'm offended on their behalf. There are a ton of people with no journalistic or editorial background making snap and arbitrary decisions about quite a few sites. This particular one sticks in my craw. This newspaper, which has quite a large circulation in north Jersey, has been cited on FOX News, CNN and in the U.K. for too numerous stories to recount. Why don't you present an argument that contains an example of how this company is "Un-reliable." Until it is proven to be "un-reliable" it should be given the benefit of the doubt. You should also be careful about your media law knowledge, because you are misinformed if you think you can publicly impune anyone or any company's crediblity. Wikipedia, because of it's footprint on the web, is held to a different standard. And I know internet law pal. You don't want the newspaper on the Dupre page, fine. But I would delete this thread and all other negative communication regarding the Post Chronicle if I were you. And that's all I have to say about that. |
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==[[TMZ.com]] as a source== |
==[[TMZ.com]] as a source== |
Revision as of 12:29, 22 March 2008
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Article worthiness. Recommend deletion/merge
She is beginning to get more attention with a number of news articles focusing primarily on her [1]. I think at this point she merits her own article. Reggie Perrin (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
This page should be deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlafreak3551 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Delete?
- Oppose. Most famous, um, hooker in America, rivalling Lindsay, Paris, and Britney in Google searches---therefore now being offered contract to be the face of the new "No. 9" vodka being offered by Georgi, etc., AND her also meriting WP's mention, and this despite the third word of my statement. --Justmeherenow (talk) 19:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose (keep) better known than quite a few subjects of wikibios and there's more to come since she's the star witness in the upcoming trial. Besides, I hear she has a "heart of gold". Reggie Perrin (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep, Very notable; she contributed to the fall of an American Governor, she is easily verified, her music career has definitely gotten a boost. She is about as notable as Monica Lewinsky.--Uga Man (talk) UGA MAN FOR PRESIDENT 2008 20:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose (keep). This is no "15 minutes of fame". In addition to her coverage in major newspapers and magazines (New York Times[2], Newsweek[3], Newsday[4],etc [5] she will soon be worth millions of dollars and through appearances in films, magazines and undoubtedly talk shows, etc.[6], -- KeepItClean (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- If you think it should be deleted then take it to WP:AFD. This isn't the process. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
From the BLP policy
Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy.
When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. In the best case, it can lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, it can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic.
(emphasis mine)
This article should instead be merged with the Eliot Spitzer prostitution scandal. It isn't necessary to know every biographical detail such as what business her father owned, what languages her tattoos are in, where she lived, etc. The only thing that is notable is her contact with Spitzer. Cheers.--Burzum (talk) 02:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- I tried that with an AFD and it was snowballed keep, and precedents were thrown in that thread. Please read that thread and see why there was a unanimous keep for this article. Calwatch (talk) 02:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing general notability. I'm arguing that she is only notable for one or two things and therefore an extensive personal history is not encyclopedic and does not preserve privacy IAW the BLP policy. This was not discussed in your AFD. If we want to keep this article everything except her interactions with Spitzer should be removed. I also think the remaining stub article should then be merged with the scandal article. Cheers.--Burzum (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Her sudden success on Aimie Street is notable - reaching top price in the shortest time. She also seems to have propelled Aimie Street to a new level of popularity so it appears that her musical career is "notable" (if she has indeed earned over a million dollars from downloads this makes her more successful than most professional musicians in the US) and while this is certainly a result of the Spitzer scandal it's not particularly relevant to the Spitzer articles. It's quite likely she will become a C-level celebrity so there is a point in having the article but I agree it must have a neutral tone to it. However, removing everything from it but the Spitzer scandal actually is worse from a BLP perspective, I think, since that's the most negative aspect of her biography. Reggie Perrin (talk) 03:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please nominate the articles for a merge and put appropriate tags on their pages so more of the WP community can weigh in.
- Although we should check to make sure we haven't sensationalized her life tabloid style, I do think we can encyclopedically cover its outline in a manner deserving of her---genuine notoriety. Genuine? Yes, after all, subject even has her own detailed New York Times "biography-in-a-side-column-box."(See here!) (Of course that's maybe not saying much since some these days think the Times is a tabloid, I guess. lol (Seriously!)) --Justmeherenow (talk) 03:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- When one (allegedly) commits a crime such as prostitution, and brings down the governor of New York in the process, there is really not an expectation of a high degree of privacy. Steve913 (talk) 04:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- She is a person first and a prostitute second, and he brought himself down. She did not solicit him, and even if she did, he is responsible for his own mistakes.
- I feel that the existence of this article is unethical because she has not yet willingly released many of these details to the public. --unsigned
when the 15 minutes is up this will be up for speedy deletion--Wikiscribe (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Others' attepts toward turning notoriety into notability, cf.:
- . . . . . . . . Porn-star-who-ran-for-Governor-of-Nevada Melody Damayo
- World's-most-famous-living-prostitute-and-a-Nevada-icon Jessi Winchester
- --Justmeherenow (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Once again, we nominated it for AFD, and it failed completely, and Spitzer is at least an order of magnitude more important than someone from the state of Nevada. I will assure you that any call for CSD will be met with sending it to the full AFD process instead. Calwatch (talk) 05:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
In addition to this, I dont think we have heard the last from her yet. Besides as of now I think she may still continue to pop up in the news as long as the after affect of the Spitzer "Saga" continues.
205.210.159.33 (talk) 21:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Post and the Daily News as sources
Do either of these actually meet WP:RS? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- The Village Voice weighs in on the NY tabloids' reporting.
- Oh, and on a more serious note---a more helpful comment would be to specify what assertion in this article sourced in a NY tab you doubt the reliability of. (Sourcing stuff is work. Sorry about that.) So, if we're seeking information about subject /x/ and we know that /x/ has been interviewed by /y/, this is a source for information about /x/ taking into account whatever the possible slant of whoever it is that is /y/. Thus, what "relying on the most reliable sources" means is to take everything as possibly slanted and to favor those with an earned reputation for accuracy, it does not mean to simply dismiss out of hand anything from any source prejudicially predetermined as unacceptable (as attractive an option as that may seem to the lazy). --Justmeherenow (talk) 23:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read WP:RS and answer the question yourself.--Uga Man (talk) UGA MAN FOR PRESIDENT 2008 22:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps I have and given the circumstances I think a wider discussion about their reliability for our purposes for this article is in order? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please DO help us provide WP's encyclopedic coverage of this scorned-and-celebrated party girl through specifying which assertions of the article ought be thought controversial or doubtful. --Justmeherenow (talk) 00:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- The VV report casts doubt on the Izler story so I've hidden the paragraph about it for now. I have no doubt that Izler said it, I just doubt that he was telling the truth:) Reggie Perrin (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- From here: "We knew that we had found a rock star escort when we met Ashley," Jason Itzler told CNN's Larry King Live late on Thursday.
"She was spectacular. In my opinion, she was the hottest, sexiest escort we ever had," Itzler said. "We were getting easily $2 000 an hour for her, with three, four, five-hour minimums." --Justmeherenow (talk) 23:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)- At issue is not whether Itzler said these things but whether or not he's telling the truth or just trying to get some attention for himself. Reggie Perrin (talk) 00:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I dig the context that Dupre's a living person who likely did not want it generally known (that is, other than to potential customers) that she was an escort----whether for Emperors Club or NY Confidential. (Yet the funny thing is it's unlikely for many of the clients of NY Confidential's 19-year-old brunette "Victoria" girl, who was said to have formerly served drinks to diners at the Gansevoort, to step forward and say "yea" or "nay" to identify whether or not Emperors Club VIP's "Kristen" really is indeed the same girl.) --Justmeherenow (talk) 01:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- At issue is not whether Itzler said these things but whether or not he's telling the truth or just trying to get some attention for himself. Reggie Perrin (talk) 00:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- From here: "We knew that we had found a rock star escort when we met Ashley," Jason Itzler told CNN's Larry King Live late on Thursday.
- Perhaps I have and given the circumstances I think a wider discussion about their reliability for our purposes for this article is in order? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The Daily News is IMHO just as much of a reliable source as the Boston Herald or Chicago Sun times is. Just because they publish in a tabloid format does not mean they are tabloid papers. The post has credibility issues but they are about on par with the television media. Calwatch (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate the Voice writers' giving her impressions on the NY tabs' reporting. And I agree with her sense that Itzler's claim he just recently recognized "Kristen" as Dupre may well be disingenuous. (That is, the paroled-felon Itzler, who is required to never associate with anyone engaged in criminal activity---I don't know, such as, say, procuring? In a business famously insular and in relation to the owner of Emperors Club who has lived within walking distance from Itzler's familial home?) --Justmeherenow (talk) 01:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Can we add a line stating that the Village Voice has questioned Itzler's claim since Dupre was not one of the women arrested when his agency was shut down? Reggie Perrin (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable. --Justmeherenow (talk) 02:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Can we add a line stating that the Village Voice has questioned Itzler's claim since Dupre was not one of the women arrested when his agency was shut down? Reggie Perrin (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
One source says she worked with Dupre at the Viscaya club in 2004 while Itzler claims she was working at the Hotel Gansevoort in 2004. Are the two establishments connected at all? Of course, it's quite possible she worked at more than one bar at the same time (or consecutively in the same year) or that one of the sources is lying. Reggie Perrin (talk) 03:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Update: Itzler's current social introduction/dating service is DNA Diamonds. --Justmeherenow (talk) 22:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Ad has but a generic busty brunette in it
It's patently obvious that the (nonetheless-primarily-sourced) web advertisement for escort "Kristen" does not in actuality have Miss Dupre in it (and this in part to probably help keep the real escorts' identities secret?) This from a description in the old New York Magazine piece about the workings of Emperors Club VIP's prototype high-cost call girl agency: namely, NY Confidential:
“If they ask for Nicolette, I take out the three-by-five card with NICOLETTE written on top. It lists the contacts of girls who kind of look like the fake Nicolette. What blows my mind is the stupid bastards spend hours searching the sites looking for their super-fantasy, are willing to shell out $700 an hour, and then when someone else knocks on the hotel-room door, they go, ‘Oh, whatever.’ They can still go back to Indianapolis, show the girl in the picture to their buddies, and say, ‘See her? Like, awesome, dude!’ ”
--Justmeherenow (talk) 02:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree... the fact is that GFE site is locked down so it is difficult to independently verify the context of who it is anyway. As an indicator of how the VIP club operates, it is notable for that, but should be on the Emperor's Club VIP page. Calwatch (talk) 03:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Image
Would it violate copyright to add this image to the article. It is the most popular image of her, and its all over the internet particularly in use by news outlets.--Uga Man (talk) UGA MAN FOR PRESIDENT 2008 05:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. She never formally released the picture to the public; it was something they found on her MySpace and are blasting all over the place. She claimed that whoever is blasting the picture was doing so without her authorization. Calwatch (talk) 06:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
DYK nom
I nominated the page for WP:DYK here...if anyone can improve the hook, or think of a better one, you're absolutely welcome to take a crack at it. I'll do some more work on expanding the article and cleaning up the references today. Nesodak (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Since the "Sheen tryst" remains unconfirmed
independent of Itzler's at the least hyberbole(?), let's shorten it to a phrase. I dunno. "...whose claims link Dupre to the, um, reformed badboy actor ? (sorry.. getting carried away.. ) And add to it Sheen's publicist's once denial in pro-forma reaction to Itzler's cell-block payphone calls to the Post about, in part, a mystery-girl "dark-haired former Hotel Gansevoort hostess." Since the Times' line was busy. --Justmeherenow (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have a link to the Sheen publicist's denial? Nesodak (talk) 15:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Here. :^) --Justmeherenow (talk) 15:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Better? --Justmeherenow (talk) 15:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
NY Post cover
Dupre's attorney has issued a press release challenging fair use of his client's photos...see discussion at WP:ANI here. Nesodak (talk) 04:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Link dump
Just some links to some further sources, will cull later for useful info. Nesodak (talk) 14:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- http://commercial-archive.com/node/143002
- http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/3/ashley_alexandra_dupre_not_rich_yet_will_she_ever_be_
- http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/3/amie_street_s_new_star_ashley_alexandra_dupre
- http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/3/tale_of_the_tape_ashley_alexandra_dupre_vs_the_barenaked_ladies
- http://www.nypost.com/seven/03152008/news/regionalnews/songs_have_a_catchy_hook_102009.htm?page=0
- http://www.nypost.com/seven/03152008/news/regionalnews/whoreible_ordeal__dad_102007.htm
- http://www.nypost.com/seven/03132008/news/regionalnews/the_gal_who_laid_gov_low_101740.htm?page=0
- http://www.nypost.com/seven/03152008/news/columnists/sudden_hit_on_par_with_all_the_other_pop_102051.htm
Occupation
Is "party girl" an occupation? If not it shouldn't be listed as such in the infobox. Reggie Perrin (talk) 19:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- I changed it to professional party girl AND prostitute. Which is accurate...but I believe also more appropriate, ironically, than the purely legal and/or more formally "encyclopedic" term prostitute, alone, for a biography of a living person. (If you don't believe me, find out for yourself. Ask a hooker whether she'd rather be called a whore, in a friendly tone of voice, or a prostitute. :^) The difference is a professional party girl comes back from appointments loaded with cash from her entertaining, while a prostitute is a person sitting in a childhood family friend's living room squirming at being listed in the newspaper as being arrested as such.) --Justmeherenow (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Update: someone came along and didn't like the ambiguous (yet still quite accurately descriptive) non-official job title of professional party girl and deleted it, so I replaced it with call girl, it's euphemism-turned-synonym-for-prostitute equivalent. Cheers. --Justmeherenow (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ashley Dupre's age
She is actually 32 years old. --Topk (talk) 13:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- OK, since all sources say she's 22 except for one outlier from an ID that's off by exactly ten years, let's make an elementary synthesis of the available information.
- According to People magazine (click link), although Ashley Youmans was "set to graduate from [...Wall High School's] Class of '04, Ashley abruptly disappeared near the end of her sophomore year." (Ashely was set to graduate when she was----um, in her late twenties?)
- Ashley's mother, Carolyn Capalbo, <Whoooo-hoo!...> lol (see picture), is 46. (Forty-six minus thirty-two is----um, fourteen?)
- Surely Dupre (ne Youmans) would not have been the only at-one-time underaged model/party girl who could have benefitted from possessing a genuine ID that nonetheless fraudulently overstated her age by exactly ten years. -Justmeherenow (talk) 14:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Statements sourced only to Jason Itzler
We are not going to include his statements, as they have not been verified by any other source, and the very sources reporting them have been questioning their veracity. This is a biography of a living person, and we are going to be sensitive as to what we include. Just because it's been published somewhere, doesn't mean we have to put it in a Wikipedia biography. Do not reinsert without discussing here on the talk page. FCYTravis (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, it is a BLP issue (particularly in relation to the Charlie Sheen claim) and Itzler's claims are in doubt. Reggie Perrin (talk)
- Itzler's ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ 7-diamond quote (emphasis mine):
"Spitzer was the attorney general who took down seven or eight escort agencies, mine being one of them, mine maybe being one of the more well-known. After Spitzer took down these escort agencies, in a weird way, I'm watching the story, I'm thinking he's a hypocrite, it's kind of funny. And all of a sudden, you know, one of the main people that he took down, my girl is the girl that took him down, so, it's kind of like, that's my girl. It's a little crazy."
- Anyway, below is the stuff Deleciónistaed all of a piece from the article. (And if we find it that controversial, after we discuss it we can remove it from the talk page.) Is there anything at all we should distill from this, prior further secondarily sourced verifications? --Justmeherenow (talk) 03:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
(Veronica and NY Confidential)
Jason Itzler, who ran a New York escort service called NY Confidential from 2003 to 2005, claimed to have recognized Dupré when photos of her were shown on CNN in the first days of the Spitzer scandal.[1] According to Itzler, they met while she was working as a cocktail waitress at the Hotel Gansevoort in 2004, and she began working for him on the side, using the alias Victoria.[2] Itzler also claimed that he had sent Dupré, accompanied by another prostitute, for an assignation with the actor Charlie Sheen — a claim denied by Sheen.[3] NY Confidential was shut down and Itzler sent to prison by Spitzer's New York State Attorney General's office in 2005.[2] Michael Clancy of The Village Voice, citing reports that Dupré was not arrested when Itzler's operations were shut down, noted that Itzler's claims as yet remained unverified and wondered if "the self-proclaimed 'King of All Pimps' [was] angling for another 15 minutes in the spotlight."[1]
References
- ^ a b Clancy, Michael (2008-03-14). "Sex and the City: The Wild Life of Ashley Alexandra Dupre". Runnin' Scared. The Village Voice. Retrieved 2008-03-16.
{{cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|coauthors=
(help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|publisher=
(help)- ^ a b Evans, Sean (2008-03-14). "She came to N.Y. looking for record deal instead she got hooker ring offer". Daily News. Retrieved 2008-03-16.
{{cite news}}
: Unknown parameter|coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help)- ^ "Jailed pimp tattles on Sheen". PageSix.com. 2006-05-09. Retrieved 2008-03-16.
- On the plus side the material is balanced, while on the negative side most of it isn't of that much importance, really, and somewhat unnecessarily tends toward the sensational.
- Surely there must be some way to cut the whole thing down to a quick sentence absent any of its particlurs--one that would be placed in the aftermath of the tryst, where mention is made that, say, "Jason Itzler of the former escort agency NY Confidential went on a lot of talk shows making a claim that Ashley had once worked for him, which remains unsubstantiated,"? --Justmeherenow (talk) 03:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I like what you've done to distill it down to a brief mention in the "Media Coverage" section - I think it's appropriate and neutral, and doesn't run afoul of WP:BLP. I'm sure it will eventually be either confirmed or denied in the inevitable highly-paid interview she makes with the media. Nesodak (talk) 00:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Corroborations by McLennan and by court papers
New York Magazine's 16 March piece references Natalie McLennan conversing with its author concerning her having gone to escort appointments in the company of Dupre. --Justmeherenow (talk) 22:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Court documents corroborate that Dupre work for NY Confidential and after its demise, for Velvet Traces a.k.a. Gateau Victoux. A confederate of Itzler's at Confidential was Dupre's b-friend, who then started Traces while Itzler was enjoying the 7-diamond cuisine on "the Rock" (Rikers). So I'm putting a NY Post citation into the appropriate place in the article and deleting our formerly necessary disclaimer. restoring deleted text to the "Earlier years" section that had been awaiting this corroboration. --Justmeherenow (talk) 06:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Allegations of Abuse
I find this unsubstantiated allegation to be, at the least, irritating. This has been jumped on by those claiming that all those entering this field of endeavour have been abused. At the same time, it does a diservice to those "street" prostitutes who are (and have) been truely abused by the authorities, the johns, the pimps, the drug dealers and quite often by someone in their past.
At this level, chosing this career is more a statement "I don't want to do the work needed to get a real career and earn my place in society". Unfortunately, such unsubstantiated comments will tend to be misused for perhaps decades to come.
209.115.238.67 (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Birthdate
I restored the birthdate - it was apparently released by her attorney, according to both TMZ and the Post Chronicle.[7] I left a note at FCYTravis' talk page. Nesodak (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Does not matter. She is a minor public figure, and unless there is a good reason for republishing it here, we shouldn't. "Wikipedia includes dates of birth for some well-known living persons where the dates have been widely published, but editors should exercise caution with less notable people." FCYTravis (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Caution, of course... but that doesn't mean that the birthdate ought to be removed under all circumstances. Btw, reading the section on her Musical career makes me doubtful whether she still can be considered a less notable person. I think there is enough evidence that currently she is at least a well-known living person, and will remain so, at least until nobody talks about this scandal anymore. I think that the inclusion of her birthdate is in full accordance with Wikipedia's rules. --Catgut (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree - also the fact that she herself has released the birthdate (through her attorney) argues against the fact that she wants it kept private. Has she contacted Wikipedia to have it removed? Nesodak (talk) 23:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Of course her age is relevant to the subject matter, especially since she may have been underage when she took the photos for GGW. I don't understand the reasoning behind removing the dob, its verifiable fact, and much more accurate than stating that it is unknown. --Uga Man (talk) UGA MAN FOR PRESIDENT 2008 02:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Absolutely...I can understand situations where you wouldn't want to publish someone's birthdate - BLP mentions identity theft as an issue, and I imagine there are cases where say, for instance, actresses can't get parts because people think they are too old. But that doesn't seem a concern here. On the contrary, it seems that she and/or her attorney are intentionally putting the birthdate out there, in an attempt to prevent the Girls Gone Wild people from taking additional profits from her image. I don't think the argument that she is a "public figure against her will" holds that much water given the fact that sources indicate her attorney is negotiating with media outlets for sales of her story and likeness rights. I've tried to discuss this with FCYTravis on his talk page but he just doesn't seem very forthcoming in regards to responding, so it seems we have consensus to add the birthdate back in. Obviously Ms. Dupre can complain to Wikipedia anytime she wants the birthdate removed, and I would not object to it in that case. Anyone here is welcome to add it back in...if nobody else does, I can do so when I do some more work on the article tomorrow, barring some overriding Wikipedia policy trumping the consensus here. Nesodak (talk) 05:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Done. There was enough time to present arguments against reinserting her birthdate, or to prove that Dupre was a less notable person whose birthdate had to be kept out of the article. On the contrary, it seems as if the publication of her birthdate has even been promoted by her representatives. I'd suggest that anyone who disagrees with this majority's view should first present his or her arguments sustaining his/her position, and then wait for the outcome of a respective discussion. As always, any edit war would be undesirable and counterproductive. --Catgut (talk) 11:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Absolutely...I can understand situations where you wouldn't want to publish someone's birthdate - BLP mentions identity theft as an issue, and I imagine there are cases where say, for instance, actresses can't get parts because people think they are too old. But that doesn't seem a concern here. On the contrary, it seems that she and/or her attorney are intentionally putting the birthdate out there, in an attempt to prevent the Girls Gone Wild people from taking additional profits from her image. I don't think the argument that she is a "public figure against her will" holds that much water given the fact that sources indicate her attorney is negotiating with media outlets for sales of her story and likeness rights. I've tried to discuss this with FCYTravis on his talk page but he just doesn't seem very forthcoming in regards to responding, so it seems we have consensus to add the birthdate back in. Obviously Ms. Dupre can complain to Wikipedia anytime she wants the birthdate removed, and I would not object to it in that case. Anyone here is welcome to add it back in...if nobody else does, I can do so when I do some more work on the article tomorrow, barring some overriding Wikipedia policy trumping the consensus here. Nesodak (talk) 05:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Caution, of course... but that doesn't mean that the birthdate ought to be removed under all circumstances. Btw, reading the section on her Musical career makes me doubtful whether she still can be considered a less notable person. I think there is enough evidence that currently she is at least a well-known living person, and will remain so, at least until nobody talks about this scandal anymore. I think that the inclusion of her birthdate is in full accordance with Wikipedia's rules. --Catgut (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Birthplace/hometown
I notice that a lot of the original source material states that she grew up (at least during her teenage years) in Belmar, New Jersey, while our article says Wall, New Jersey (which redirects to Wall Township, where she went to high school.) Has anyone found clarification for this? Also the infobox says that she was born in Beachwood - do we have a source for that? Nesodak (talk) 05:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Girls gone Wild
Ashlee was initially offerred by Girl's Gone Wild to appear nude in its magazine. [8] It was later found out that she has already appeared nude in it's videos. [9] Bigdaddy718 (talk) 12:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've recast discussion of Miami Beach aught-five Spring break footageto this.
Image:Girls Gone Wild - Ashley Dupre.jpg Image of the 17-year-old Dupré featured in the soft-porn Girls Gone Wild video Spring Break 2005: Anything Goes (which footage is advertised on Dupré's website)
On March 19, 2008, the soft-porn website Girls Gone Wild featured video of Dupré shot in Miami Beach, Florida, when Dupré was 17.[1][2] and the footage soon thereafter came to be advertised on Ashley Dupré's self-titled website.[3] Girls Gone Wild founder Joe Francis said, "All nude images of Ms. Dupre were taken in public places and contain no sexual contact. In Florida, where Ms. Dupre was filmed, the law allows even women under the age of 18 to be filmed nude with their consent."[4]- --Justmeherenow (talk) 02:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- There is no evidence that the site in question is an "official" site - in fact, it reads like a spam-magnet Googled mashup of stuff found on the Internet about her. I have deleted all mention of it from this article, pending some verification that she is responsible for it. FCYTravis (talk) 05:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Views of this page
Here's a link to the number of views of this page since creation. Nesodak (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Post Chronicle links
Despite its "newspapery" sounding name, "The Post Chronicle" is a self-published opinion/blog organ, not a reliable, edited, fact-checked, vetted news source. At the bottom of the front page, its management specifically disclaims any responsibility for the truthfulness or accuracy of anything it posts. This, to me, is the hallmark of a "source" that we cannot consider reliable, especially for the biography of a living person. FCYTravis (talk) 23:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- No opinion on The Post Chronicle - TMZ.com is run by a major media corporation, however. I restored the TMZ ref. Not sure why the Hustler offer was deleted as well; it was supported by a second reference. Nesodak (talk) 23:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it have been more in the keeping with WP's mission to not wholly succumb to Delecionistaism within this fairly stable article (eg re Hustler Mag's 1 mill offer etc)? This could have been easily accomplished, after deleting all the various
NY Post[Chronicle] citations, through merely placing "fact" tags on assertions the bonefides of which the consensus editors don't really question (and which would not have resulted in degrading rather than improving WP's encyclopedic coverage of its subject Dupre). Just sayin'. :^) --Justmeherenow (talk) 23:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)- Yes - no offense, FCYTravis, but your lack of communication can be frustrating - I've tried to engage you on your talk page, with no response. This article is pretty closely monitored - would it be possible to state your concerns here on the talk page, and allow at least a few minutes for them to be addressed, before swooping in and deleting information that is not defamatory or harmful? If you're concerned about the reliability of sources, at least please allow a little time for the article authors to find some alternate sources for you. It's much easier than trying to reconstruct what has been deleted after several intervening edits on a high-traffic article. Nesodak (talk) 00:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- TMZ.com is a celebrity gossip site. We can, should and will demand better sources than that. There's plenty of CNN/NYTimes/Salon/Orlando Sentinel sourcing, which have reputations for quality journalism and restraint. I inadvertently removed a section when deleting links; thank you for catching that and restoring it. FCYTravis (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- lol. n/p. --Justmeherenow (talk) 00:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- TMZ.com is editorially vetted, however you may feel free to subsitute an alternate source. So far I have found the birthdate information reprinted in various major publications; however, they all quote TMZ as the original source. Nesodak (talk) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- TMZ.com is a celebrity gossip site. We can, should and will demand better sources than that. There's plenty of CNN/NYTimes/Salon/Orlando Sentinel sourcing, which have reputations for quality journalism and restraint. I inadvertently removed a section when deleting links; thank you for catching that and restoring it. FCYTravis (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- The Post Chronicle is a major publication in the North East. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.122.202 (talk) 00:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that statement needs a [citation needed] tag on it. Any site which specifically disclaims editorial responsibility for any and all of its content cannot possibly be described as a reliable source. Responsible news sources stand behind what they publish. I quote from the home page, The Post Chronicle accepts no responsibility for the accuracy or inaccuracies of any story or opinion. That's not acceptable. FCYTravis (talk) 00:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Smokefan2007 (talk) Well I called and spoke to the Post Chronicle and they are a private media company based in Northern New Jersey. The reson for their disclaimer is for the three categories in which they publish gossip and rumor. They also publish a ton (sorry no citation) of hard news. They seem to be similar to the New York Post/Page Six.
- Well, that is essentially an admission that we shouldn't be citing it. If it's gossip and rumor, it doesn't belong in a Wikipedia biography. End of story. FCYTravis (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Smokefan2007 (talk) Well I called and spoke to the Post Chronicle and they are a private media company based in Northern New Jersey. The reson for their disclaimer is for the three categories in which they publish gossip and rumor. They also publish a ton (sorry no citation) of hard news. They seem to be similar to the New York Post/Page Six.
- I'm afraid that statement needs a [citation needed] tag on it. Any site which specifically disclaims editorial responsibility for any and all of its content cannot possibly be described as a reliable source. Responsible news sources stand behind what they publish. I quote from the home page, The Post Chronicle accepts no responsibility for the accuracy or inaccuracies of any story or opinion. That's not acceptable. FCYTravis (talk) 00:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes - no offense, FCYTravis, but your lack of communication can be frustrating - I've tried to engage you on your talk page, with no response. This article is pretty closely monitored - would it be possible to state your concerns here on the talk page, and allow at least a few minutes for them to be addressed, before swooping in and deleting information that is not defamatory or harmful? If you're concerned about the reliability of sources, at least please allow a little time for the article authors to find some alternate sources for you. It's much easier than trying to reconstruct what has been deleted after several intervening edits on a high-traffic article. Nesodak (talk) 00:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it have been more in the keeping with WP's mission to not wholly succumb to Delecionistaism within this fairly stable article (eg re Hustler Mag's 1 mill offer etc)? This could have been easily accomplished, after deleting all the various
The fact that we are even debating this is an enigma. Techically, wikipedia isn't a reliable source since it can be edited by anyone. I find that to be ironic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smokefan2007 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- We can't cite Wikipedia either. Wikipedia is definitely not a reliable source. All information here must be verifiable from information published by reliable sources. That includes established newspapers and professional Web media outlets, academic journals, published books, etc. FCYTravis (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Let me understand this. The Post Chronicle, an established a reputable media outlet in the northestern US is disqualified as a "reliable" source because it runs a disclaimer and publishes rumor and gossip in three categories. What about the other 10 categories of hard news?
TMZ runs rumor and gossip, NY Post as Smokefan points out, run rumor and gossip. In fact, just about every major publication now does so.
Smoke you should contact TPC again and see if they appreciate the way their company is being represented here. Frankly it's borderline slander and detrimental to their overall business. If it was me, I'd sue WP's arse off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.122.202 (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well whoever you are, you have a good idea. I never really thought of it in that fashion. It is libelous now that I give it some thought. I'll give them a holler. I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate unpaid and unqualified people discerning their viability. Since the history page is a publicly accessed page, the company's reputation can be, and was, impuned and maligned. Interesting. Smokefan2007 (talk)
- Perhaps we should request a checkuser to find out if that IP is your sockpuppet. You have a history of editing articles to insert references to The Post Chronicle. I wonder if you are an employee of the company, or perhaps are Marc Centanni himself. This is certainly a matter that bears further investigation. There is nothing "libelous" about pointing out that a Web site's disclaimer of responsibility makes it unsuitable for use as a reliable source on Wikipedia. That's a statement of opinion, protected by the First Amendment. I suggest that you perhaps should review media law. You should also review our no legal threats policy, which states that users who make legal threats against the encyclopedia or its users will be indefinitely blocked. FCYTravis (talk) 11:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- And yes, it is blatantly obvious that you and the IP are the same person. I've a mind to block you for sockpuppetry and legal threats immediately, unless you drop the act and start making a rational case for why PostChronicle.com's gossip should be considered a reliable source. FCYTravis (talk) 11:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well whoever you are, you have a good idea. I never really thought of it in that fashion. It is libelous now that I give it some thought. I'll give them a holler. I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate unpaid and unqualified people discerning their viability. Since the history page is a publicly accessed page, the company's reputation can be, and was, impuned and maligned. Interesting. Smokefan2007 (talk)
- Sherlock, err...Travis, don't quit your day job. And take a course on how the internet works, mainly about IP numbers, sharing and spoofing. While I admit to residing in the state of NJ, I am in no way shape or form connected to this company. Wikipedia is pretty cool but it is also a haven for little "Eichman's" who have elevated senses of self worth. I visit that site every day, have talked with management and I'm offended on their behalf. There are a ton of people with no journalistic or editorial background making snap and arbitrary decisions about quite a few sites. This particular one sticks in my craw. This newspaper, which has quite a large circulation in north Jersey, has been cited on FOX News, CNN and in the U.K. for too numerous stories to recount. Why don't you present an argument that contains an example of how this company is "Un-reliable." Until it is proven to be "un-reliable" it should be given the benefit of the doubt. You should also be careful about your media law knowledge, because you are misinformed if you think you can publicly impune anyone or any company's crediblity. Wikipedia, because of it's footprint on the web, is held to a different standard. And I know internet law pal. You don't want the newspaper on the Dupre page, fine. But I would delete this thread and all other negative communication regarding the Post Chronicle if I were you. And that's all I have to say about that.
TMZ.com as a source
Given FCYTravis' edit-warring over TMZ.com as a ref, can we have some comments on its reliability? Here is the article in USA Today stating that content of that website is is "researched and vetted for accuracy". Nesodak (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to citing essentially any gossip publication as a source; but noting that we've cited it a zillion times elsewhere, there should probably be a broader debate on that, so I reverted myself for now. FCYTravis (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Does Dupre continue to authorize sale of the GGW video?
I simply memorialize here that there was an "as-tasteful-as-possible-under-the-circumstances" screenshot (which is to say, the frontal view of Dupre-in-her-bikini, as she yanked on a pair of shorts used as a coverup) from a GGW spring break video was deleted in order for WP not to give too much weight to presumably embarrassing-to-her, youthful indiscretions. Yet I believe that should it become established she continues to authorize the video's sale, then our rationale in this regard would at that point no longer stand. --Justmeherenow (talk) 08:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- ^ Associated Press. "Spitzer escort's 'Girls Gone Wild' videos surface". CNN.com. Retrieved 2008-03-18.
- ^ TMZ (2008-03-19). "Ashley Dupre Gone "Wild" -- Legal or Jailbait?". Retrieved 2008-03-19.
{{cite web}}
: Check date values in:|date=
(help) - ^ http://www.ashleydupre.net/
- ^ http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-ashley-dupre-photos-pictures-spitzer,0,2003460.story?track=rss