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:::: I don't understand how the discussion of what anarchists think of anracho-capitalists is undue if anarchocapitalists literally decided to use "anarcho" as part of their name. I disagree that ancaps understand anarchism as "no rulers", since they support wage labour and private property. But I digress; your opinions about the matter are not important here, because we have to follow what the sources say, not what you personally believe. The existence of the Criticism section is completely justified, and such sections are present all around Wikipedia: [[Capitalism]], [[Fascism]], [[Socialism]], [[Anarchism]] and so on. The "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" section is very due because it discusses why anarcho-capitalism includes "anarcho" in its name despite being rejected by anarchists, a quite significant talking point. I think it's farcical to compare Rothbard's lofty ideas to Eistein's general relativity - we are after all talking here about Rothbard's ideas, and that's why a secondary source is useful to talk about them (and that's something that we, nota bene, also do in the article about general relativity). Also it's worth noting that general relativity is a scientific theory while anarcho-capitalism is a political idea: the former attempts to describe physical reality, while the latter talks about someone's opinions about how the world should look like. Finally, I am not sure you understand the need for [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources: once again, we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, opinions and thoughts - that's not "secondary analysis" as you put it, that's a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source. This is exactly why we don't base biographies on autobiographical texts, but rather secondary sources that have at least vetted the statements to some extent. Likewise when we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, if we only base the text on primary sources, we perform our own interpretation of what he is saying ([[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:OR]])- this is why we need secondary sources that we can refer to, so that such interpretation can be attributed to someone via citation. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 13:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
:::: I don't understand how the discussion of what anarchists think of anracho-capitalists is undue if anarchocapitalists literally decided to use "anarcho" as part of their name. I disagree that ancaps understand anarchism as "no rulers", since they support wage labour and private property. But I digress; your opinions about the matter are not important here, because we have to follow what the sources say, not what you personally believe. The existence of the Criticism section is completely justified, and such sections are present all around Wikipedia: [[Capitalism]], [[Fascism]], [[Socialism]], [[Anarchism]] and so on. The "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" section is very due because it discusses why anarcho-capitalism includes "anarcho" in its name despite being rejected by anarchists, a quite significant talking point. I think it's farcical to compare Rothbard's lofty ideas to Eistein's general relativity - we are after all talking here about Rothbard's ideas, and that's why a secondary source is useful to talk about them (and that's something that we, nota bene, also do in the article about general relativity). Also it's worth noting that general relativity is a scientific theory while anarcho-capitalism is a political idea: the former attempts to describe physical reality, while the latter talks about someone's opinions about how the world should look like. Finally, I am not sure you understand the need for [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources: once again, we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, opinions and thoughts - that's not "secondary analysis" as you put it, that's a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source. This is exactly why we don't base biographies on autobiographical texts, but rather secondary sources that have at least vetted the statements to some extent. Likewise when we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, if we only base the text on primary sources, we perform our own interpretation of what he is saying ([[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:OR]])- this is why we need secondary sources that we can refer to, so that such interpretation can be attributed to someone via citation. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 13:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::: I think a helpful example might be [[Democratic People's Republic of Korea]] - despite its name, we don't go ahead and state that it's a democratic country, despite it [[Elections in North Korea|holding elections]]; we don't dismiss any discussions about it as a debate over definition of terms. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 13:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
:::: I think a helpful example might be [[Democratic People's Republic of Korea]] - despite its name, we don't go ahead and state that it's a democratic country, despite it [[Elections in North Korea|holding elections]]; we don't dismiss any discussions about it as a debate over definition of terms. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 13:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::::: I laughed when you said {{tq|"I disagree that ancaps understand anarchism as "no rulers", since they support wage labour and private property."}}, but then in the very next sentence said {{tq|"your opinions about the matter are not important here, because we have to follow what the sources say, not what you personally believe"}}. Your refusal to accept that many people can correctly use "anarchy/anarchism" in [https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=anarchism a simple primary meaning of no rulers/no government] shows that you are unable to hold multiple views and definitions in your thoughts, revealing your own bias. That bias I think prevents you from being an objective participant in this re-write. The rest of your claims related to UNDUE weight of outside anarchist views is likewise biased in favor for that ideology, not based on relative weight in sources that discuss anarcho-capitalism, where its often, at most, a minor aside. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
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Anarcho-capitalism and anarchism
What's the point in stating in the lead that anarcho-capitalism is a "modern school of anarchist thought" when there's a note that literally states "The wider anarchist movement rejects anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism, see Anarcho-capitalism and other anarchist schools"? It should just states "Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy and economic theory". There're Anarchism and capitalism and Issues in anarchism that can discuss that with more informations and better clarifications; we don't need to put anarcho-capitalism and anarchism everywhere, especially when "[t]he wider anarchist movement rejects anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism", which reliable sources generally agree/support. Anyway, this article still has multiple issues, @Czar: maybe you can do something about it?--Davide King (talk) 08:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2019
The following referral does not lead to dispute resolution organizations, but instead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux#Views
Top of this URL then reads:
"Stefan Molyneux From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Dispute resolution organizations)"
CHANGE dispute resolution organizations TO dispute resolution organizations Lolileinchen (talk) 11:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @Lolileinchen:, the Dispute resolution organizations redirect makes no sense and so I will arrange for it to be deleted. Thanks, Fish+Karate 12:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2020
Hello,
I propose the addition of some words in the opening frase of the article:
Please change: "Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy and economic theory that advocates..."
to: "Anarcho-capitalism is one of the neoliberal schools of thought that as political philosophy and economic theory advocates..."
I believe it whould make the article more acurate since the terms "libertarianism"-"anarchocapitalism" are both invented and promoted by the austrian school. Such the "austrian school" as "libertarianism" are already part of the "neoliberalism" article in wikipedia. And that's correct since the main carachteristic of neoliberalism as described in wikipedia is practically the main principal of "libertarianism" (pro free market and private initiative against state control and market regulations)
Borodin bonobo (talk) 15:14, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Given the controversial topic of this article, I would also want to see consensus supporting this change before implementing it via an edit request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Responding to the updated request, you still haven't pointed to reliable sources that use this description. I recommend starting a discussion of sources here below. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:02, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Anarcho-capitalism and anarchism again
Knight of BAAWA, you reverted me, claiming WP:POV. Sentence reads as if anarchocapitalists aren't anarchists. Which they are
which could be argued to be pushing a POV the other way around. As I noted here, I was merely making the lead conform to the main body (the lead is supposed to be a summary of the main body). The main body does not support your rationale for your second revert (WP:POV. And we can't marginalize people. And, since anarchocapitalists are anarchists, we must use the word "other"
). It is not supported by given references. The relevant section, titled Anarchism and capitalism, also does not support your view and then it merely quotes Rothbard at large first claiming that anarcho-captalism is the only true anarchism and then that they are not anarchist but nonarchist. Furthermore, neither Anarchism nor History of anarchism, both of which are good articles, make mention of anarcho-capitalism or other disputed schools like national-anarchism. Anyway, in my first revert I actually removed the comma. The phrase and from anarchists who support personal property and oppose private ownership of the means of production [...]
is perfectly fine because it says that anarcho-capitalism is distinguished from anarchists who oppose the private ownership of the means of production which is undoubtedly true, so there is no need for the other
qualifier which may imply that anarcho-capitalism is anarchist when there is no consensus that it is as you wrote. Contrary to your claim, without the comma, it does not imply that it is distinguished from all anarchists, yet you reverted me again with the same misleading rationale, so I suggest that you self-revert.--Davide King (talk) 13:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- It does read as if anarchocapitalists aren't anarchists. And we have sources which show they are, in fact, anarchists. As you should be aware: SOURCES MATTER. Verifiability matters. And the sources verify that anarchocapitalists are anarchists. So please: abide by the spirit of Wikipedia. Abide by the sources. Thank you. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 00:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, without the comma, it does not; and it also goes the other way around, like anarcho-capitalists are undoubedtly anarchists when this is not a fact. Merely talking about sources does not mean much; please show us.
“ | Some argue that anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism,[1][2][3] although this has been contested[4] or rejected,[5][6][7][8] including an individualist–socialist divide.[4] Many others deny that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism at all,[9][10] or that capitalism is compatible with anarchism,[9][11] seeing it as a form of New Right libertarianism.[9] | ” |
- ^ Bottomore, Tom (1991). "Anarchism". A Dictionary of Marxist Thought. Oxford: Blackwell Reference. p. 21. ISBN 0-63118082-6.
- ^ Outhwaite, William. The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought, Anarchism entry, Blackwell Publishing, 2003, p. 13: "Their successors today, such as Murray Rothbard, having abandoned the labor theory of value, describe themselves as anarcho-capitalists".
- ^ See the following sources:
- Bullosk, Alan; Trombley, Stephen (ed.) (1999). The Norton Dictionary of Modern Thought. W. W. Norton & Company. p. 30.
- Barry, Norman (2000). Modern Political Theory. Palgrave, p. 70.
- Adams, Ian (2002). Political Ideology Today. Manchester University Press. ISBN 0-7190-6020-6, p. 135.
- Grant, Moyra (2003). Key Ideas in Politics. Nelson Thomas. p. 91. ISBN 0-7487-7096-8.
- Heider, Ulrike (1994). Anarchism: Left, Right, and Green. City Lights. p. 3.
- Avrich, Paul (1996). Anarchist Voices: An Oral History of Anarchism in America. Abridged paperback edition. p. 282.
- Tormey, Simon (2004). Anti-Capitalism, One World. pp. 118–119.
- Raico, Ralph (2004). Authentic German Liberalism of the 19th Century. École Polytechnique, Centre de Recherche en Épistémologie Appliquée, Unité associée au CNRS.
- Busky, Donald (2000). Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey. Praeger/Greenwood. p. 4.
- Heywood, Andrew (2002). Politics: Second Edition. Palgrave. p. 61.
- Offer, John (2000). Herbert Spencer: Critical Assessments. Routledge. p. 243.
- ^ a b Franks, Benjamin (August 2013). Freeden, Michael; Stears, Marc (eds.). "Anarchism". The Oxford Handbook of Political Ideologies. Oxford University Press: 385–404. doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199585977.013.0001.
- ^ Rothbard, Murray (1950s). "Are Libertarians 'Anarchists'?". Lew Rockwell.com. Retrieved 1 April 2020.
- ^ Wieck, David (1978). "Anarchist Justice". In Chapman, John W.; Pennock, J. Roland Pennock, eds. Anarchism: Nomos XIX. New York: New York University Press. pp. 227–228. "Out of the history of anarchist thought and action Rothbard has pulled forth a single thread, the thread of individualism, and defines that individualism in a way alien even to the spirit of a Max Stirner or a Benjamin Tucker, whose heritage I presume he would claim – to say nothing of how alien is his way to the spirit of Godwin, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, and the historically anonymous persons who through their thoughts and action have tried to give anarchism a living meaning. Out of this thread Rothbard manufactures one more bourgeois ideology." Retrieved 7 April 2020.
- ^ Peacott, Joe (18 April 1985). "Reply to Wendy Mc Elroy". New Libertarian (14). June 1985. Archived 7 February 2017 at the Wayback Machine. Retrieved 7 April 2020. "In her article on individualist anarchism in the October, 1984, New Libertarian, Wendy McElroy mistakenly claims that modern-day individualist anarchism is identical with anarchist capitalism. She ignores the fact that there are still individualist anarchists who reject capitalism as well as communism, in the tradition of Warren, Spooner, Tucker, and others. [...] Benjamin Tucker, when he spoke of his ideal "society of contract," was certainly not speaking of anything remotely resembling contemporary capitalist society. [...] I do not quarrel with McElroy's definition of herself as an individualist anarchist. However, I dislike the fact that she tries to equate the term with anarchist capitalism. This is simply not true. I am an individualist anarchist and I am opposed to capitalist economic relations, voluntary or otherwise."
- ^ Baker, J. W. "Native American Anarchism". The Raven. 10 (1): 43‒62. "It is time that anarchists recognise the valuable contributions of individualist anarchist theory and take advantage of its ideas. It would be both futile and criminal to leave it to the capitalist libertarians, whose claims on Tucker and the others can be made only by ignoring the violent opposition they had to capitalist exploitation and monopolistic 'free enterprise' supported by the state." Retrieved 7 April 2020.
- ^ a b c Marshall, Peter (1993). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. Oakland, California: PM Press. p. 565. ISBN 978-1-60486-064-1.: "In fact, few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice, Their self-interested, calculating market men would be incapable of practising voluntary co-operation and mutual aid. Anarcho-capitalists, even if they do reject the State, might therefore best be called right-wing libertarians rather than anarchists."; Sabatini, Peter (Fall/Winter 1994–1995). "Libertarianism: Bogus Anarchy". Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed (41).
{{cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) "Within Libertarianism, Rothbard represents a minority perspective that actually argues for the total elimination of the state. However Rothbard's claim as an anarchist is quickly voided when it is shown that he only wants an end to the public state. In its place he allows countless private states, with each person supplying their own police force, army, and law, or else purchasing these services from capitalist venders. [...] [S]o what remains is shrill anti-statism conjoined to a vacuous freedom in hackneyed defense of capitalism. In sum, the "anarchy" of Libertarianism reduces to a liberal fraud."; Meltzer, Albert (1 January 2000). Anarchism: Arguments for and Against. AK Press. p. 50. ISBN 978-1-873176-57-3. "The philosophy of "anarcho-capitalism" dreamed up by the "libertarian" New Right, has nothing to do with Anarchism as known by the Anarchist movement proper."; Goodway, David (2006). Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow. Liverpool Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-84631-025-6.: "'Libertarian' and 'libertarianism' are frequently employed by anarchists as synonyms for 'anarchist' and 'anarchism', largely as an attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of 'anarchy' and its derivatives. The situation has been vastly complicated in recent decades with the rise of anarcho-capitalism, 'minimal statism' and an extreme right-wing laissez-faire philosophy advocated by such theorists as Murray Rothbard and Robert Nozick and their adoption of the words 'libertarian' and 'libertarianism'. It has therefore now become necessary to distinguish between their right libertarianism and the left libertarianism of the anarchist tradition."; Newman, Saul (2010). The Politics of Postanarchism. Edinburgh University Press. p. 53. ISBN 978-0-7486-3495-8.: "It is important to distinguish between anarchism and certain strands of right-wing libertarianism which at times go by the same name (for example, Murray Rothbard's anarcho-capitalism). There is a complex debate within this tradition between those like Robert Nozick, who advocate a 'minimal state', and those like Rothbard who want to do away with the state altogether and allow all transactions to be governed by the market alone. From an anarchist perspective, however, both positions—the minimal state (minarchist) and the no-state ('anarchist') positions—neglect the problem of economic domination; in other words, they neglect the hierarchies, oppressions, and forms of exploitation that would inevitably arise in a laissez-faire 'free' market. [...] Anarchism, therefore, has no truck with this right-wing libertarianism, not only because it neglects economic inequality and domination, but also because in practice (and theory) it is highly inconsistent and contradictory. The individual freedom invoked by right-wing libertarians is only a narrow economic freedom within the constraints of a capitalist market, which, as anarchists show, is no freedom at all". - ^ See the following sources:
- K, David (2005). What is Anarchism?. Bastard Press.
- Marshall, Peter (1992). Demanding the Impossible. Chapther 38. London: Fontana Press. ISBN 0-00-686245-4.
- MacSaorsa, Iain (2009). Is 'Anarcho' Capitalism Against the State?. Spunk Press.
- Wells, Sam (January 1979). Anarcho-Capitalism is Not Anarchism, and Political Competition is Not Economic Competition. Frontlines 1.
- ^ See the following sources:
- Peikoff, Leonard (1991). Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. Chapter "Government". Dutton Adult.
- Doyle, Kevin (2002). Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates, and Pirate Utopias. New York: Lexington Books. pp. 447–448.
- Sheehan, Seán M. (2003). Anarchism Reaktion Books. p. 17.
- Kelsen, Hans (1988). The Communist Theory of Law. Wm. S. Hein Publishing. p. 110.
- Tellegen, Egbert; Wolsink, Maarten (1998). Society and Its Environment: an introduction. Routledge. p. 64.
- Jones, James (2004). The Merry Month of May. Akashic Books. pp. 37–38.
- Sparks, Chris. Isaacs, Stuart (2004). Political Theorists in Context. Routledge. p. 238.
- Bookchin, Murray (2004). Post-Scarcity Anarchism. AK Press. p. 37.
- Berkman, Alexander (2005). Life of an Anarchist. Seven Stories Press. p. 268.
- Anarcho-capitalists as part of anarchism seems to be the minority and remains a controversial and contested view, so
we cannot objectively call them that given the contentious nature of them using that label
as argued by BeŻet.--Davide King (talk) 08:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Anarcho-capitalists as part of anarchism seems to be the minority and remains a controversial and contested view, so
Rewrite
@Cinadon36: @Czar: I ping you again because I believe this article really needs improvement and rewrite; and I believe that, since you worked at Anarchism and other anarchist-related articles which became Good articles, you can probably do a good job, maybe not to make it a Good article at once but at least to better explain what anarcho-capitalism is because I do not think is clear. Is it simply anarchism and free markets? Or is it radical neoliberalism? Because there may well be individuals, who use or have used the anarcho-capitalist label, who may well be closer to mutualism or to anarchism without adjectives or pan-anarchism and thus may well be anarchists and anarcho-capitalism in this sense would be part of anarchism, but in my understanding that is not what the anarcho-capitalist movement is about. Some anarcho-capitalist may see it simply as voluntarism and accepting all other anarchist schools, but anarchism is not voluntarism; it is about free association which is different from voluntarism (see Voluntary slavery). In other words, the anarcho-capitalist movement seems to want to abolish the welfare state, any regulation and privatise everything, i.e. radical neoliberalism.
Furthermore, there are clear issues or differences on economics and property between anarcho-capitalism and the wider anarchist movement which makes communists and individualists closer to each other than anarcho-capitalists are to the individualists (admittedly, the individualists are often conflated, in my opinion wrongly, with the anarcho-capitalists). Anarchists oppose capitalism, including interest, profit, rent, usury and wage slavery (which is different from some form of wage labour that anarchists may support; those who do, they support the worker receiving the full value of their labour which again is different from profit), anarcho-capitalism does not seem to have issue with at least one of that. In other words, anarcho-capitalism is not opposed to capitalist and landowners as long as property was justly acquired which puts it at odd with the wider anarchist movement.
One thing to consider is that anarcho-capitalism seems to be mainly and largely an American phenomenon and that it did not developed or came out from the anarchist movement but rather from the Old Right and 19th-century liberal tradition. Whatever influence anarchists such as Tucker or Spooner may have had on anarcho-capitalism and people like Rothbard, their normative claims and related socialist doctrines were rejected. Like national-anarchism is considered to be a far-right trojan horse, anarcho-capitalism seems to be more related to neoliberalism than anarchism, with its emphasis on privatisation, hence radical neoliberalism that wants to privatise everything, including the state. While it may not be as easy to discount as with national-anarchism, I do not believe it is just as easy to take it at face value that anarcho-capitalism is part of anarchism. Unlike both anarcho-capitalism and national-anarchism, anarcho-primitivism, another controversial anarchist school, did developed and came out of the anarchist movement, even as an anarchist critique of anarchism, as part of the post-left anarchy development, hence why I would consider it part of anarchism and the wider anarchist movement.
The fact that anarcho-capitalists seem to use capitalism for free markets, which is at odds with the wider anarchist movement usage which is that of the actually existing class system, seems to further confirm that anarcho-capitalism may have some general overlaps with anarchism but that it did not developed out of the movement or came out from it. Several conservatives may also label themselves anarchists based on their opposition to the state, but they still support unnatural, man-made or otherwise coercive hierarchies, hence why they may be called akratists rather than anarchists and the same may apply to anarcho-capitalists. I hope Cinadon36 and Czar can share their thoughts, feel free to correct me and hopefully do an analysis of sources to improve the article and better explain what anarcho-capitalism is.--Davide King (talk) 13:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think where you are getting tripped up is in the idea that you are interpreting this topic in relation to the "wider anarchist movement" (you use that phrase a lot) and want to define it using a word salad of other -isms, which themselves can have muddy definitions. Treat the topic as a thing unto itself. This article does not need a radical rewrite. It does not need more commentary about what it isn't. -- Netoholic @ 14:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Those templates, which I have not put and go back to July 2019, respectful disagree.--Davide King (talk) 15:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've removed the templates from your post as those are for articles and don't need to be literally seen here. BeŻet added those, but has since done some editing, so we'll have to ask him whether he thinks some/all of those issues have since been addressed. -- Netoholic @ 16:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Netoholic, sorry about that and thanks for removing that, I should have shown a diff. which is what I did now. Anyway, Czar pretty much wrote below what is wrong with the article and why the templates are still valid.--Davide King (talk) 08:55, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've removed the templates from your post as those are for articles and don't need to be literally seen here. BeŻet added those, but has since done some editing, so we'll have to ask him whether he thinks some/all of those issues have since been addressed. -- Netoholic @ 16:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Those templates, which I have not put and go back to July 2019, respectful disagree.--Davide King (talk) 15:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Anarcho-capitalists are not objectively anarchists. They might consider themselves anarchists, but we cannot objectively call them that given the contentious nature of them using that label. We already have whole paragraphs about how anarchists don't consider anarchocapitalists to be part of their movement, and we list many of the reasons why. Therefore, if we want to adhere to WP:NPOV, we shouldn't call them anarchists outright, but explain why anarchocapitalists think they are anarchists, and why others disagree. I haven't reviewed the article in a while, so would have to do that first, but from what I remember this was already clearly outlined in the text. In terms of saying "other anarchists", since anarchocapitalists are not clearly defined as part of anarchism, and anarchism has quite clearly defined boundaries, saying "other anarchists" is wrong in this context, and I have reverted it. BeŻet (talk) 19:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- They are objectively anarchists. And sources confirm it. This is Wikipedia; that's how things work. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to understand what you mean by "sources confirm it". Do some right libertarian and anarchocapitalist writers refer to them as anarchists? Without a doubt. Does the vast majority of anarchists (if not all of them) disagree with labelling this political movement as such? Also, no doubt about it. Like I said, we should be writing that anarchocapitalists see themselves as anarchists, and provide their justifications, however we cannot objectively state that they are, because it's a fringe view held predominantly by anarchocapitalists themselves, and therefore requires attribution. BeŻet (talk) 10:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Merely writing this does not mean much without actually providing some sources in support of this view.--Davide King (talk) 08:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- At first blush, the sourcing is severely lacking throughout the entire article. Many primary sources, not enough independent (read: non-Mises) secondary source commentary about anarcho-capitalism (and not specifically Rothbard). As a tertiary source, WP cares about what secondary source analysis has been done on the subject, not what anarcho-capitalists write about themselves, and to focus disproportionately on the latter creates undue weight. Davide, I suggest discussing specific passages/claims that need better sourcing and/or posing specific questions for focused discussion. Many paragraphs certainly need to be rewritten and some sections might be better off revised from scratch if better sources are available. (not watching, please
{{ping}}
) czar 01:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Czar: I think BeŻet can probably tell you better about such specific sections and passages since BeŻet added those templates, but I believe your comments are spot on. My issue was with
and from anarchists
--->and from other anarchists
in the lead.--Davide King (talk) 09:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I took upon myself to try and improve the article some time ago, as there were a lot of issues present. Since I've added the templates, a lot of content has been rewritten and/or removed, however I still believe a lot of the issues remain. The main issue is, a lot of fragments in the article were written from the point of view of an anarcho-capitalist, and thus with their understanding of terms and interpretation of facts. There is a reason why we have a glossary that someone helpfully added to aid in understanding of what anarchocapitalists are talking about. Because of this issue, we had a huge case of WP:OR and portraying opinions as facts. An example of this issue was present in the Historical precedents section, which listed examples of anarchic societies that were not described as "anarchocapitalist" anywhere in the sources (inclusion of which only makes sense if you assume that any example of anarchism is an example of anarchocapitalism). There are also a few non sequitur statements that seem to only make sense to anarchocapitalists (and with their understanding of the world), and a lot of opinions presented as facts without attribution (I've fixed most of those now). For certain statements to make sense, you need to understand the "anarchocapitalist context", that is, all of the assumptions and beliefs held by ancaps. For example, anarchocapitalists don't see wage labour as hierarchical, a view not shared with probably every other political philosophy. Finally, there are a lot of unsourced statements that need citations. BeŻet (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- BeŻet, thanks for your comment. I think this is a fair analysis. Another issue is that it took for granted that it was anarchist, for example referring to anarchists as left-wing anarchists (a page which was actually deleted and turned into a redirect to discuss the issue) and which I changed to those anarchists or simply anarchists. This was also reflected in the use of terms such as traditional anarchists which are not really used by scholars (they use classical anarchism and they use it to refer to a specific period, not to social anarchism as anarcho-capitalists seem to imply) and is really only used by anarcho-capitalists in another way to imply that they are anarchists, just not traditional anarchists or whatever that means. Apart from left-wing people like Bookchin, it is also mainly anarcho-capitalists that draw a sharp difference between communists and individualists or make it such bigger issue of the debates and issues between the two schools than they really were.
- I believe even Rothbard wrote that the economics of 19th-century individualist anarchists were still "socialist doctrines" and thus "nonsense", so I dispute how much influence Tucker and Spooner really had on Rothbard and anarcho-capitalists, for example noting that "the individualist anarchists laid great stress on their nonsensical banking theories, their political order that they advocated would have led to economic results directly contrary to what they believed"; i.e. the individualist anarchists believed that their free-market theories would lead to equality of condition, equality of access to the means of production and equal opportunity which would counteract any potential tyranny in a market society, so they did not advocated market means for market means' shake as anarcho-capitalists may do because the latter do not seem to care about its results whereas the individualists did care and that is why the communists and individualists were closer than it is assumed and many communists were individualists and vice versa; they wanted very similar ends, they simply had different means to achieve that. I believe this is something that makes anarcho-capitalism diverge from anarchism and that is why it may be seen more as radical neoliberalism than anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 11:48, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- BeŻet, you are also right about wage labour. Several liberals also viewed wage labour as wage slavery.--Davide King (talk) 11:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I also agree that "radical neoliberalism" is a lot more apt descriptor than "anarchism"; however I won't be pushing for including this term, unless a significant portion of sources talk about this. What is important here however is distinguishing sources that come from within the political "movement", and those from outside of it. Anarchocapitalists are free to identify as whatever they want, but in an encyclopedia we need to follow the general scholarly consensus on the matter, and thus not unconditionally include them in the anarchist movement. It seems clear to my that a WP:NPOV approach is to say that, while anarchocapitalists consider themselves to be anarchists, this opinion is not mutual, and the justification for both stances should be included. I guess this is a long-winded way of saying: yes, I share your concern regarding the phrase "other anarchists". BeŻet (talk) 13:06, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- BeŻet, I agree with your comments. The point is that even anarcho-capitalists have recognised this. Rothbard wrote that anarcho-capitalists are not anarchists. Of course, Rothbard meant that anarcho-capitalism is the only true anarchism, but since anarchism refers to those left-wing anarchists, anarcho-capitalism is not anarchist. I do not think this has changed; as shown by our Anarchism and History of anarchism, anarchism is still those so-called left-wing anarchists and anarcho-capitalism is not really discussed. Some searches to start may be
anarcho-capitalism "neoliberalism"
on Google, Google Scholar and JSTOR;anarcho-capitalism "radical neoliberalism"
on Google (we may also get different results if we change"neoliberalism"
to"neo-liberalism"
since some works may prefer the latter usage); andanarcho-capitalism
on Google Scholar and JSTOR.--Davide King (talk) 14:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- BeŻet, I agree with your comments. The point is that even anarcho-capitalists have recognised this. Rothbard wrote that anarcho-capitalists are not anarchists. Of course, Rothbard meant that anarcho-capitalism is the only true anarchism, but since anarchism refers to those left-wing anarchists, anarcho-capitalism is not anarchist. I do not think this has changed; as shown by our Anarchism and History of anarchism, anarchism is still those so-called left-wing anarchists and anarcho-capitalism is not really discussed. Some searches to start may be
- I also agree that "radical neoliberalism" is a lot more apt descriptor than "anarchism"; however I won't be pushing for including this term, unless a significant portion of sources talk about this. What is important here however is distinguishing sources that come from within the political "movement", and those from outside of it. Anarchocapitalists are free to identify as whatever they want, but in an encyclopedia we need to follow the general scholarly consensus on the matter, and thus not unconditionally include them in the anarchist movement. It seems clear to my that a WP:NPOV approach is to say that, while anarchocapitalists consider themselves to be anarchists, this opinion is not mutual, and the justification for both stances should be included. I guess this is a long-winded way of saying: yes, I share your concern regarding the phrase "other anarchists". BeŻet (talk) 13:06, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Czar: I think BeŻet can probably tell you better about such specific sections and passages since BeŻet added those templates, but I believe your comments are spot on. My issue was with
Thanks Davide King for pinging me and I am really flattered by your nice words. Unfortunately, I can not contribute significantly in this interesting article. Real life is consuming more and more of my free time and I have already undertaken another wp article (not related to anarchism). I 've had a look at this specific article and I agree with the template that there are multiple issues that need to be addressed. Most pressing problem in my opinion is the weak verification of the text. Sources are not the best available, most of them are not third-party or even secondary. Cinadon36 07:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Cinadon36, thanks to you for your response. That is really unfortunate (and I hope everything is fine) because I truly believe you could greately improve this article. I agree about those issues that need to be addressed. Anyway, I also pinged you and Czar because the issue on whether anarcho-capitalism is anarchist or part of the anarchist movement came out again and I thought you two could probably do a better job on searching sources, what they say and what is the consensus on the issue. One thing I forgot to add in my post above is that anarcho-capitalists seem to be more like that Herbert Spencer's associate (I do not remember the name) who claimed to be anarchist and anarchists lambasted him, including the individualist Tucker, who pointed out how they defended capital and land's owners and I believe also criticising Spencer for emphasizing welfare for poor and working-class people but not for the rich and monopolists of capital and land. I wish I could remember this British self-professed anarchist, it was literally written and sourced on his Wikipedia page, I hope you can help me find it. Just to show this was nothing new.--Davide King (talk) 09:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that the quality of a lot of the sources leave a lot to be desired. A lot of them are blog posts or references to primary material - what we need is good quality secondary sources. BeŻet (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that is obvious by now. Did you find anything interesting in the Google Scholar and JSTOR links I wrote here?--Davide King (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Those search links would likely result in WP:CHERRYPICKING, since you have a foregone conclusion as to the relationship between the terms and that search will only deliver items which would confirm it. -- Netoholic @ 13:45, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this makes no sense because the links were about
"anarcho-capitalism"
and I merely added those about anarcho-capitalism and neoliberalism (I may add those about anarcho-capitalism and anarchism or libertarianism too) because BeŻet wrotehowever I won't be pushing for including this term, unless a significant portion of sources talk about this
and I thought those links could be useful in verifying how many sources talk about that, if it is significant, due, etc. I even asked if BeŻet found anything interesting in the links specifically because I wanted to avoid bias.--Davide King (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this makes no sense because the links were about
- Those search links would likely result in WP:CHERRYPICKING, since you have a foregone conclusion as to the relationship between the terms and that search will only deliver items which would confirm it. -- Netoholic @ 13:45, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that is obvious by now. Did you find anything interesting in the Google Scholar and JSTOR links I wrote here?--Davide King (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that the quality of a lot of the sources leave a lot to be desired. A lot of them are blog posts or references to primary material - what we need is good quality secondary sources. BeŻet (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Removal of unsourced content
Since it has been a year since the templates went up, and there doesn't seem to be anyone interested in backing up the original claims inserted in this article (and it's not the job of other editors to try and figure out where specific claims have originated from), I will be soon removing paragraphs that are missing sources. I think it will be better for the article to be shorter but with more sourced material, rather than longer with a lot of unverified information. In general, I'd like to remove:
- The Economics subsection that has no citations bar one primary source for one sentence, which talks about Rothbard and his opinion on Cold Warriors.
- Sentences that use the Don Stacy "source" (which is a review of the book), as nearly all of them, if not all of them, failed verification. If the editor who added this source was trying to reference the book itself, a full citation is needed.
- Unsourced content in the Common Property section, including the content that failed verification.
- Unsourced content in the Contractual Society section
- Unsourced content in the History section, including the paragraph that failed verification.
- The two unsourced claims in Medieval Iceland
- The non sequitur statement in the Criticism section (which is also unsourced)
- The whole of the literature section - there are no sources nor criteria explaining why any of the books there belong in this article. The fiction section is lacking citations.
If anyone would like to "rescue" this content, now is the time to add sources. Thanks! BeŻet (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- The Literature section is fundamentally a MOS:FURTHER reading section, and doesn't strictly require citations (like other External links) especially where its just a simple list of works. If further commentary is made, such as in the Literature>Fiction section, then of course citations are needed. I'd really prefer also if we could focus efforts on one section at a time. There is WP:NODEADLINE and I get the feeling that we're going to have too many hands in the pot trying to make a lot of changes at once. -- Netoholic @ 20:14, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't want to remove everything in one go, but rather do it over the course of a week or more. In terms of the literature section, it still required justification – for instance, who decides whether a 1885 text or a 1935 book has anything to do with anarchocapitalism, considering it was "invented" in the 50s or 60s? Any text that is not clearly and unequivocally about anarchocapitalism should include a justification/citation. BeŻet (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Some of those early books are listed because of their strong influence on the development of AnCap and because they express similar sentiments (without calling themselves the precisely same name as was later developed). I certainly think prose is better than a simple list, but I don't think its an urgent priority. -- Netoholic @ 13:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Moreover, the opposing view is Wikipedia:The deadline is now. Misinformation can spread quickly. BeŻet (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, since the questioned parts are tagged with {{cn}} or {{failed verification}}, the problem of misinformation being spread is minimized because readers are alerted. Some of those tags are very new and we need to give time for the problems to be addressed. -- Netoholic @ 13:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- The main tag complaining about unsourced information has been here for nearly a year. The individual inline tags may have been introduced later, but that doesn't change the fact that this information has been unsourced for quite some time without anyone willing to provide the missing citations for the original claims. We should slowly start removing the content now. BeŻet (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- How about improving the content? It could be that the original citations or link between citation and text has been lost due to prior mass removals. It could also be that simple searches could be found to cite content. Now I know you're next reply is going to say "the WP:BURDEN is on those wanting to include disputed content", but that's a bit narrow thinking. I think if people see a large number of blanket removals by editors not likewise putting in effort to improve where possible, that would be seen as counterproductive. And yes, if inline tags were recently added, then those should be given enough time to be remedied. The main tag is not license to remove specific content which was only recently challenged. -- Netoholic @ 19:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- It is not other editors' responsibility to try to locate the source of specific claims. I am in fact trying to improve the content, but I am not going to spend hours researching and searching for a source that fits a specific sentence. If a quick google search doesn't return anything, it's justified to remove the content instead. Finally, the content wasn't "only recently challenged": all content on Wikipedia needs citations. When the main template went up, it was challenging all unsourced content. Feel free to update the content that is planned to be removed, like you did with common property (appreciated). BeŻet (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- How about improving the content? It could be that the original citations or link between citation and text has been lost due to prior mass removals. It could also be that simple searches could be found to cite content. Now I know you're next reply is going to say "the WP:BURDEN is on those wanting to include disputed content", but that's a bit narrow thinking. I think if people see a large number of blanket removals by editors not likewise putting in effort to improve where possible, that would be seen as counterproductive. And yes, if inline tags were recently added, then those should be given enough time to be remedied. The main tag is not license to remove specific content which was only recently challenged. -- Netoholic @ 19:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- The main tag complaining about unsourced information has been here for nearly a year. The individual inline tags may have been introduced later, but that doesn't change the fact that this information has been unsourced for quite some time without anyone willing to provide the missing citations for the original claims. We should slowly start removing the content now. BeŻet (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Well, since the questioned parts are tagged with {{cn}} or {{failed verification}}, the problem of misinformation being spread is minimized because readers are alerted. Some of those tags are very new and we need to give time for the problems to be addressed. -- Netoholic @ 13:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't want to remove everything in one go, but rather do it over the course of a week or more. In terms of the literature section, it still required justification – for instance, who decides whether a 1885 text or a 1935 book has anything to do with anarchocapitalism, considering it was "invented" in the 50s or 60s? Any text that is not clearly and unequivocally about anarchocapitalism should include a justification/citation. BeŻet (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- @BeŻet: You're proving what I said about the undesirable effects of too-rapid removal of content. It becomes a confusing frenzy of back-and-forth, not affording people a chance to fix and respond. Let's chill out a bit and focus on one section at a time - you seem to have some disagreements over my rewrite of "Common property", so let's hash that out before moving forward. Why exactly do you think that section needs attribution, when Holcombe is not putting forward novel ideas, but rather summarizing the ideas put forward by AnCap writers? -- Netoholic @ 12:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- First and foremost, the WP:STYLE of the text is not encyclopedic: things like "the question then becomes" and "the solution might be" are not acceptable. Secondly, you are saying yourself that Holcombe is summarizing ideas put forward by ancaps. That's why the easiest way to solve this is by attributing this pondering to anarcho-capitalists. I am not sure why you reverted my changes that were trying to remedy the situation? Finally, the "solution" presented is not self-explanatory - it is suggested that ownership could be transferred into private hands, but there is no mentioning of what does that achieve. It can be deduced that ancaps simply think that "private is better", but without attributing these thoughts to ancaps it comes across as something that should be obvious to the reader, while it's not. BeŻet (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Holcombe in his paper is doing the work of attributing lines of thought to specific other writers. We are citing Holcombe as a summary of AnCap thought on the subject of common property. We don't need to attribute (to specific writers or to unnamed "anarchocapitalists") these ideas, only summarize them. If there are more works on common property & anarcho-capitalism, we can incorporate them. Direct attribution is only done when a primary source is being used, but Holcombe is secondary. It sounds like you feel, though, that Holcombe's work isn't explaining the details you're looking for, and that's irrelevant. We present the source as it is, not how we want it to be. I took the content and summarized it for our purposes, but if you have a better summary of Holcombe's paper, then put it forward. -- Netoholic @ 14:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- First and foremost, the WP:STYLE of the text is not encyclopedic: things like "the question then becomes" and "the solution might be" are not acceptable. Secondly, you are saying yourself that Holcombe is summarizing ideas put forward by ancaps. That's why the easiest way to solve this is by attributing this pondering to anarcho-capitalists. I am not sure why you reverted my changes that were trying to remedy the situation? Finally, the "solution" presented is not self-explanatory - it is suggested that ownership could be transferred into private hands, but there is no mentioning of what does that achieve. It can be deduced that ancaps simply think that "private is better", but without attributing these thoughts to ancaps it comes across as something that should be obvious to the reader, while it's not. BeŻet (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Considering what happened, I believe always more it should be rewritten. I do not mean this literally; I mean that we should act like this is a new article and start from the scratch by searching what reliable sources, especially academic ones, say. Because even if we find sources for those uncited claims and other issues, they may be undue or not really discussed. On the other hand, we may find new information that is actually due but it is not in the main body. Only after we have done this, only after we have actually searched on the topic and sources, making a list and discuss them, can we see whether the article needs to be totally rewritten, almost or very little, or whether we just need to add the refs and avoid edit wars. That is why I still hope Cinadon36 and Czar can help us in doing exactly this.--Davide King (talk) 15:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I think that ample time has been given for the sourced to be added to the article, and it is not unreasonable to remove unsourced content. Reverting such changes back to unsourced versions is not a valid thing to do. There are no rules regarding how quickly unsourced content can stay in the article, and such content can be removed at any time. Unsourced content is often marked and left in the article if there is a chance that someone will come back and add appropriate references. But since this hasn't happened for a long time, it seems unlikely now. I tried to behave fairly and give a final warning on the discussion page before removing the content (and keep the deletion pace at a reasonable rate), but having said that, there really isn't any valid reason to revert removal of unsourced content. As explained in WP:BURDEN: The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material
and Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source
- the rules are pretty clear. BeŻet (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason to hold off on editing the article. The points made above re: burden of verifiability and the state of the article are valid. There are some sections that can be improved/rewritten and there are others that are based solely on affiliated sources that need TNT. The points I made last week about lack of independent, secondary source analysis and over-reliance on primary sources still stand. As for other/new sources, I need to keep digging, but I know I at least have some passages from Radicals for Capitalism I can use. Pretty amazing it's not already in the article, but also a sign of how much work remains to be done. czar 07:09, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another argument for paring it down is that it's so leviathan and messy that I'm sitting here with multiple sources and there's nowhere to even begin. The article starts with Ethics but ends up being mainly about Rothbard without explaining why we're hearing so much from him, but it's really more a tour through a series of primary sources. It reads like an essay when this overview should be about what secondary sources summarize about anarcho-capitalist thought. The long block quotes are jarring/overkill, as are the separate sections on History/Historical precedents: Again, why are we citing Rothbard's claims about the historical precedent for his thought? If Rothbard's self-analysis was vetted, an independent, secondary source would analyze it without the conflict of interest. There's just a whole lot to be excised before the real work can even begin. If you'd prefer to go section by section, we can do that, but realize that a lot of what is here is unusable. czar 21:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- One of the major sources of bloat in this article is from editors adding an WP:UNDUE amount of content related to the historical anarchist viewpoint on how anarcho-capitalism is "not real anarchy". This is a fairly minor point of debate overall and comes down to definition of terms. AnCaps use the strict definition of the term "anarchy" (ie "no rulers") and believe that only thru coercion can you stop the free market, anarchists use it to mean "no hierarchy" and believe that the free market is coercion. This point need not be covered all over the place as it is currently (the lead, and Philosophy, "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism", History, and Criticism sections, etc). The Criticism section should be eliminated per WP:STRUCTURE. The "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" is massively WP:UNDUE as we wouldn't dedicate sections to the views of other -isms (note that an article on this topic at Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism was a massive failure). Rothbard's analysis to the topic is just as valid as Einstein's analysis of General relativity - there is no conflict of interest as Czar calls it - but of course if secondary sources quote Rothbard, as they often do, then we should also. But it need not be a requirement where Rothbard himself is giving the secondary analysis, like in the "Historical precedents" section. -- Netoholic @ 23:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I don't understand how the discussion of what anarchists think of anracho-capitalists is undue if anarchocapitalists literally decided to use "anarcho" as part of their name. I disagree that ancaps understand anarchism as "no rulers", since they support wage labour and private property. But I digress; your opinions about the matter are not important here, because we have to follow what the sources say, not what you personally believe. The existence of the Criticism section is completely justified, and such sections are present all around Wikipedia: Capitalism, Fascism, Socialism, Anarchism and so on. The "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" section is very due because it discusses why anarcho-capitalism includes "anarcho" in its name despite being rejected by anarchists, a quite significant talking point. I think it's farcical to compare Rothbard's lofty ideas to Eistein's general relativity - we are after all talking here about Rothbard's ideas, and that's why a secondary source is useful to talk about them (and that's something that we, nota bene, also do in the article about general relativity). Also it's worth noting that general relativity is a scientific theory while anarcho-capitalism is a political idea: the former attempts to describe physical reality, while the latter talks about someone's opinions about how the world should look like. Finally, I am not sure you understand the need for WP:SECONDARY sources: once again, we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, opinions and thoughts - that's not "secondary analysis" as you put it, that's a WP:PRIMARY source. This is exactly why we don't base biographies on autobiographical texts, but rather secondary sources that have at least vetted the statements to some extent. Likewise when we are talking about Rothbard's ideas, if we only base the text on primary sources, we perform our own interpretation of what he is saying (WP:SYNTH and WP:OR)- this is why we need secondary sources that we can refer to, so that such interpretation can be attributed to someone via citation. BeŻet (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think a helpful example might be Democratic People's Republic of Korea - despite its name, we don't go ahead and state that it's a democratic country, despite it holding elections; we don't dismiss any discussions about it as a debate over definition of terms. BeŻet (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I laughed when you said
"I disagree that ancaps understand anarchism as "no rulers", since they support wage labour and private property."
, but then in the very next sentence said"your opinions about the matter are not important here, because we have to follow what the sources say, not what you personally believe"
. Your refusal to accept that many people can correctly use "anarchy/anarchism" in a simple primary meaning of no rulers/no government shows that you are unable to hold multiple views and definitions in your thoughts, revealing your own bias. That bias I think prevents you from being an objective participant in this re-write. The rest of your claims related to UNDUE weight of outside anarchist views is likewise biased in favor for that ideology, not based on relative weight in sources that discuss anarcho-capitalism, where its often, at most, a minor aside. -- Netoholic @ 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- I laughed when you said
- One of the major sources of bloat in this article is from editors adding an WP:UNDUE amount of content related to the historical anarchist viewpoint on how anarcho-capitalism is "not real anarchy". This is a fairly minor point of debate overall and comes down to definition of terms. AnCaps use the strict definition of the term "anarchy" (ie "no rulers") and believe that only thru coercion can you stop the free market, anarchists use it to mean "no hierarchy" and believe that the free market is coercion. This point need not be covered all over the place as it is currently (the lead, and Philosophy, "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism", History, and Criticism sections, etc). The Criticism section should be eliminated per WP:STRUCTURE. The "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" is massively WP:UNDUE as we wouldn't dedicate sections to the views of other -isms (note that an article on this topic at Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism was a massive failure). Rothbard's analysis to the topic is just as valid as Einstein's analysis of General relativity - there is no conflict of interest as Czar calls it - but of course if secondary sources quote Rothbard, as they often do, then we should also. But it need not be a requirement where Rothbard himself is giving the secondary analysis, like in the "Historical precedents" section. -- Netoholic @ 23:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another argument for paring it down is that it's so leviathan and messy that I'm sitting here with multiple sources and there's nowhere to even begin. The article starts with Ethics but ends up being mainly about Rothbard without explaining why we're hearing so much from him, but it's really more a tour through a series of primary sources. It reads like an essay when this overview should be about what secondary sources summarize about anarcho-capitalist thought. The long block quotes are jarring/overkill, as are the separate sections on History/Historical precedents: Again, why are we citing Rothbard's claims about the historical precedent for his thought? If Rothbard's self-analysis was vetted, an independent, secondary source would analyze it without the conflict of interest. There's just a whole lot to be excised before the real work can even begin. If you'd prefer to go section by section, we can do that, but realize that a lot of what is here is unusable. czar 21:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)