Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk | contribs) Better place, I think |
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See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Population_history_of_Egypt&diff=1082989976&oldid=1082986100]. Is the editor right and should that be included in this article? Note that his edits almost all seem to be from an Afro-Centric perspective, which is his right if his edits meet our policies and guidelines. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC) |
See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Population_history_of_Egypt&diff=1082989976&oldid=1082986100]. Is the editor right and should that be included in this article? Note that his edits almost all seem to be from an Afro-Centric perspective, which is his right if his edits meet our policies and guidelines. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:There is a fair amount of controversy on how quick the end of the AHP was and whether it occurred at different times in different places, but 2400BC is definitively not one major step along the way according to all the climatology papers I've seen - 4.2 ka and 5.5 ka are. I note also that none of the researchers cited appear to be climatologists. Besides, if the birth of Ancient Egypt didn't coincide with the end of the AHP, this would reinforce rather than weaken any theory of Ancient Egypt not being African, I would think, unless the inhabitants of AHP Sahara somehow don't count as African. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 10:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC) |
:There is a fair amount of controversy on how quick the end of the AHP was and whether it occurred at different times in different places, but 2400BC is definitively not one major step along the way according to all the climatology papers I've seen - 4.2 ka and 5.5 ka are. I note also that none of the researchers cited appear to be climatologists. Besides, if the birth of Ancient Egypt didn't coincide with the end of the AHP, this would reinforce rather than weaken any theory of Ancient Egypt not being African, I would think, unless the inhabitants of AHP Sahara somehow don't count as African. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 10:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::4.2 thousand years ago is 2178 BCE [[User:Dunkleosteus77|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #8B0000;">Dunkleosteus77</span>]] [[User talk:Dunkleosteus77|'''(talk)''']] 00:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Green Sahara
I added this as an ALTNAME (which is also a redirect and probably is also a contender for COMMONNAME!) before noticing the above thread - so no doubt I'll be reverted! However, just to say that we shouldn't have a link back to the terminology section in the first sentence - per MOS:CIRCULAR. DeCausa (talk) 10:10, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DeCausa: See, I was thinking that MOS:SL would apply here rather than MOS:CIRCULAR as it's a section link and not a circular redirect. Green Sahara is certainly a common term but one catch is that it's also often applied to pre-Holocene AHPs which are more tangentially covered here.
I've been dallying with turning Green Sahara into a proper article with a different focus (more anthropology and more Sahara, for instance), actually. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- I've never noticed the last sentence of MOS:SL before. That does seem to override CIRCULAR - which does seem slightly odd but there it is in black and white! This is obviously an area of your expertise (which it isn't for me) - is Green Sahara a different concept to this article? The sources I looked at seemed to use it as a synonym. DeCausa (talk) 10:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DeCausa:There is a roughly 50-80% overlap, I'd say. That said, AHP also covers East Africa etc. which isn't within the Sahara, and AHP is mainly used for the Holocene GS while GS can also be applied to the Eemian etc. GS. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, I’ve self reverted the edits I made earlier which included adding “Green Sahara” to the Terminology section (where it’s currently not mentioned). There may be scope for a separate Green Sahara article. However, what I would say is that there needs to be a clearer explanation of “Green Sahara” and its relationship to the article title both in the lead and the body of this article. I certainly found this article looking for information about Green Sahara and would say it’s a more widely known name than the article title. In the article itself it often seems to be used as a synonym for the article title which possibly needs clarifying. For these reasons I think quite a prominent explanation is warranted. By the way - great article! I see it’s pretty much all your work.DeCausa (talk) 16:34, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DeCausa:There is a roughly 50-80% overlap, I'd say. That said, AHP also covers East Africa etc. which isn't within the Sahara, and AHP is mainly used for the Holocene GS while GS can also be applied to the Eemian etc. GS. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- I've never noticed the last sentence of MOS:SL before. That does seem to override CIRCULAR - which does seem slightly odd but there it is in black and white! This is obviously an area of your expertise (which it isn't for me) - is Green Sahara a different concept to this article? The sources I looked at seemed to use it as a synonym. DeCausa (talk) 10:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
File:Africa Climate 7000bp.png
I see that Tobby72 just added File:Africa Climate 7000bp.png to the page. I am not sure if it was already added in the past, but I am not so sure that it accurately reflects the scientific consensus on vegetation during the AHP. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:37, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- The website it comes from is interesting but it hasn't been updated since 1998 and links to a "new version" that is dead. As far as I can tell it only lead to one scientific publications, in Internet Archaeology (2001), which says a bit about the methodology. But yeah it looks very coarse and obviously not up-to-date. – Joe (talk) 13:05, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like this is supposed to be the most recent version of the website. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- Removed the image in the interim. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Looks like this is supposed to be the most recent version of the website. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the length tag
I'd like to disagree with the tag Dylanvt placed here - this is a very broad scope article (c.f WP:HASTE) that can't be neatly subdivided without prohibitive amounts of work (c.f also the peer review). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- It certainly doesn't need to be split, but I think it's worth considering. I could see the "causes" section (perhaps with the "background" section) being split off to a separate Causes of the African humid period article, and then summarized much more succinctly here. Also, is it possible to condense the bibliography? I know it doesn't affect the readable prose size, but we still have an enormous list of inline citations followed by the less enormous, and very neat, bibliography. Dylanvt (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, background isn't necessarily the same thing as cause and a lot of the academic literature on the AHP is precisely about its cause, so I am kind of wary of reducing its length relative to the other sections. The problem isn't just the amount of work involved in splitting it, but also that updating 2 or more articles with one source is more work than 1 article, and there is a lot of work every year in updating (a few tens of sources to use, out of a few hundred to check).
One day, this article will hit the size limits, I believe. I don't know how many years. But in light of the amount-of-work issue I'd rather wait until it happens.
Regarding the bibliography, I am not sure how to condense it. Maybe removing parameters like ISSN? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, background isn't necessarily the same thing as cause and a lot of the academic literature on the AHP is precisely about its cause, so I am kind of wary of reducing its length relative to the other sections. The problem isn't just the amount of work involved in splitting it, but also that updating 2 or more articles with one source is more work than 1 article, and there is a lot of work every year in updating (a few tens of sources to use, out of a few hundred to check).
I've just reverted material from Population history of Egypt that contradicts this article
See [1]. Is the editor right and should that be included in this article? Note that his edits almost all seem to be from an Afro-Centric perspective, which is his right if his edits meet our policies and guidelines. Doug Weller talk 09:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- There is a fair amount of controversy on how quick the end of the AHP was and whether it occurred at different times in different places, but 2400BC is definitively not one major step along the way according to all the climatology papers I've seen - 4.2 ka and 5.5 ka are. I note also that none of the researchers cited appear to be climatologists. Besides, if the birth of Ancient Egypt didn't coincide with the end of the AHP, this would reinforce rather than weaken any theory of Ancient Egypt not being African, I would think, unless the inhabitants of AHP Sahara somehow don't count as African. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- 4.2 thousand years ago is 2178 BCE Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 00:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)