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Please explain how saying that if 100k Georgians die than all 97k Abkhaz die is not fascist? It makes no sense the way it is, so I'm reverting your revert. If you want to keep those lines in there than please clarify them. [[User:Pocopocopocopoco|Pocopocopocopoco]] 04:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC) |
Please explain how saying that if 100k Georgians die than all 97k Abkhaz die is not fascist? It makes no sense the way it is, so I'm reverting your revert. If you want to keep those lines in there than please clarify them. [[User:Pocopocopocopoco|Pocopocopocopoco]] 04:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Dear Mauco, Buffadren or whoever you are. The passage is already referenced and clarified. If you want to throw accusations of fascism around, you can do it elsewhere but not here. So please don't remove the referenced passages just because it doesn't particularly meet your POV. Thanks for your understanding, yours truly [[User:Kober|Kober]]<sup>[[User talk:Kober|Talk]]</sup> 06:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:28, 20 July 2007
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Reworking the Russian role section
As I'd promised I've written it anew. I want to point out that:
1. all the facts that had been there stayed. I've shortened a bit Georgian Parliament declarations but imho it's not a very big deal.
2. All the new facts were taken from the HRW report (VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR AND RUSSIA'S ROLE IN THE CONFLICT - http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf)
Finally I don't claim it's a comprehensive review of the issue and more facts may have to be added in future. Alaexis 17:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- OK. I agree that the HRW report is a good source, but it is outdated and not very comprehensive. It also lacks political analysis due to quite understandable reasons. I've got a collection of many citations from the Western scholarly works on this particular issue. Unfortunately, I have very limited time right now, but I'll add more info a bit later. Also, there has always been a strong suspicion that Russia exploited the Abkhazian war to force Georgia into the CIS and to achieve the ligitimization of the Russian military presence in Georgia (Soviet/Russian bases had officially been declared as occupational in 1991). Once referenced, this should also be mentioned in the article. It was a critical point in the contemporary Russo-Georgian relations. --KoberTalk 19:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Georgia's entry into the CIS has more to do with the civil war than with Georgian-Abkhaz war afaik. I don't know whether it should be added here also. Some political analysis is of course needed. I think that more global things should go to Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict article (or else I don't understand why it was created) Alaexis 19:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Kober is correct. Shevardnadze forced his government to sign the CIS agreement soon after fall of Sukhumi. Georgian membership in CIS was determined all due to Abkhaz conflict. Ldingley 20:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Name?
War in Abkhazia sounds rather informal, thus I propose this article be moved to Georgian-Abkhaz war (analogous to Georgian-Abkhaz conflict). sephia karta 22:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- warmish agree Alaexis 07:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose. Georgian-Abkhaz war sounds as if it was a war between the two separate countries - Georgia and Abkhazia - and ignores the fact the North Caucasian confederation and Russia were involved much more heavily than the ethnic Abkhaz fighters. Better move it to War of Abkhazia or Abkhazian War. We have War of Transnistria, not Moldovan-Transnistrian war; Nagorno-Karabakh War, not Azerbaijan-Karabakh war.--KoberTalk 07:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Alex, the UNPO itself is a controversial organization and its accounts are entirely based upon the information provided by its members (Abkhaz separatists in this case). If you have a BBC link on Karkarashvili's statement, please provide. Your addition is POV and more importantly, it is not veryfiable. --KoberTalk 11:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Cannot provide a link to BBC monitoring archive itself as it's a paid content. So I've given a link to the 'Conciliation Resources' site. Alaexis 11:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose like Kober --TheFEARgod (Ч) 14:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Karkarashvili
Yes, you are right. I've just remembered there was one of his expressions on that site and haven't checked which one. I'll try to find a source for another one when I have time. Alaexis 17:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
references
The removed text: Furthermore another helicopter reportedly carrying evacuated civilians was shot down on December 14 in the Tkvarcheli district resulting in 52 to 64 deaths (including 25 children).[1]
Where is that reference, where is the text? Copy the text or link here so i review it. Ldingley 16:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
These references are taken from the hrw's VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR AND RUSSIA'S ROLE IN THE CONFLICT report, page 31, note 99. Do you claim they included fake refs? Alaexis 16:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- There is no such thing on page 31 Ldingley 16:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- What's written in the 99th note then? Alaexis 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- So do I and there are no such info in that chapter or on those pages which you give me. Also there are no notes. There are 60 pages in total. Ldingley 16:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Here: A political watershed was reached when on December 14 a
Russian army helicopter, reportedly evacuating Abkhaz civilians from the besieged mountain town of Tkvarcheli to Gudauta, was shot down. Reports of the dead ranged from fifty-two to sixty-four, including twenty-five children. 99 Although the Georgian government denied responsibility, few believed it, especially in Russia. Now i know what you mean by notes. Ldingley 16:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oops, the page numbers in the contents do not correspond to de facto page numbers )). Alaexis 16:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
references 2
The removed text: After the fall of Sukhumi Russian Black Sea fleet participated in the evacuation of tens of thousands of Georgians from it.[2]
See the 153rd note of the report, page 42. Alaexis 16:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ignore the page, look for 153rd note. Alaexis 16:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- There are no notes on that document, just give me p # Ldingley 16:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- On September 27, Sukhumi fell to Abkhaz fighters as the Russian Black Sea fleet evacuated tens of thousands of Georgians by sea. 153 Many tens of thousands more attempted to flee to the south and east through Ochamchira and Mingrelia. Other tens of thousands sought to cross the Caucasus mountains east of Sukhumi. Ok, checked and corresponds, my fault. Thanks Alex. Ldingley 16:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have more docs and references, i'll review them too. Ldingley 16:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Revert explanation
1. About Ukrainians. The ref you've given is to the geocities site; afaik it's a free hosting and anyone can create his page there and as such it's not a reliable source. Please find a more reliable ref supporting this claim.
2. Muslim Russians, Shamil Basayev,[3] - that's what I removed because it's already written in the article: about volunteers from Caucasian republics right in the next sentence (The separarists were supported by the North Caucasian and Cossack militants) and about Shamil Basaev in the list of commanders of separatist forces. Alaexis 16:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I don't think that Armenians generally supported the separatism in Abkhazia and the article is definitely not neutral nor accurate. SosoMK 19:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- You probably know about Bagramyan Battalion already. See also the ref I've added. Alaexis 20:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | During the war, not just the North Caucasus minorities, but local Russians and Armenians as well, supported the Abkhazians | ” |
- One could also recall the results of the USSR renewal referendum in Abkhazia. Alaexis 20:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, there were many Armenians who were fighting on the Georgian side, example Sumbat Saakian, members of Armenian diaspora of Abkhazia and Georgian Armenians (battalion Virq). So did Russians (example: Siberia brigade), Ukrainians, Jews, etc. Ldingley 20:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Karkarashvili
I found this video on youtube [3]
There is logic in Karkarashvili's statements. There are about 4 000 000 Georgians and 100 000 Abkhazians, so we can kill 100 000 Georgians and 100 000 Abkhazians. This will be fair (100 000 = 100 000).
Btw, recently the head of Administration of the President of Georgia live on television told to Karkarashvili that he envied him, because he had had opportunity to fight for his country. I think this was too bad of the head of Administration of the President of Georgia. Tamokk 14:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes and then, one of the ministers of Georiga called the head of Administration of the President of Georgia an 18 year old boy, suggesting that he was misinformed, anyway. Tamokk 14:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
And to avoid being partial, which I by no means intend here, I will formaly sate: it is easy to find plenty of people like Karkarashvili on youtube on the Abkhazian side, as well as it is easy to find commentators like the head of Administration of the President of Georgia on the Abkhazian side too. Tamokk 15:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- These statements are pretty well known. They are also mentioned in the article. I don't think this video could be included in the sources though for copyright reasons. Alæxis¿question? 15:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, no wonder he made them after they crucified his brother on a tree and after he seen how Abkhaz buried alive woman and children in Gagra and Leselidze. I can produce tons of quotes by Arzimba and his fellows where they call for extermination of the Georgian race. Thanks to UN reports, all of them are available. I'll commence with inserting those quotes (and OSCE definition of the Abkhaz tactic as Genocidal) with nice photos of Arzimba. Ldingley 14:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually I've followed your example - Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia#Military_conflict_in_Abkhazia Alæxis¿question? 15:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
UN report
UN Mission in Georgia has issued the following statement: “The violation of human rights were committed by both sides of the conflict, however more intensively and systematically by the Abkhaz side which resulted in the death of thousands..” ref Annex to the Report of the UN Secretary General on the situation in Abkhazia, Georgia; Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, Georgia UN Mission report chronology, 3 May 1994. /ref
Here is the report of May 3, 1994 - [4]. I couldn't find the comparison of atrocities in the annex "Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict" (page 11). Could you give the number of the page where these words are written? Alæxis¿question? 15:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Annex to the Report of the UN Secretary General on the situation in Abkhazia, Georgia; Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, Georgia UN Mission report chronology, 3 May 1994. This document includes sub-section of UNOMIG (previously UN Mission in Georgia) report dated from November 1993 by Margaret Nicholson, which is included in full document of May 13, 1993. On internet I could not find this protocol, however, its hard copies are available in UN Report Factbook of 1993-94, published by the United Nations and available in libraries. They also have collection of protocols and amendments.
- Also i found two more references for that, from OSCE report of UN mission statement and UN Observers report. I'll incert them. Ldingley 17:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- What full document of May 13, 1994 have you written about? [5]Alæxis¿question?
- Its sub-section of UNOMIG report, here: November 1993 by Margaret Nicholson, UNOMIG Observer Report on situation in Abkhazia, November 1993, New York. Ldingley 17:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- You can find it here: United Nations Reports from 1993-1994, published in New York. Ldingley 17:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, wait. This report tells about the whole conflict. This info shouldn't be in the first months of the conflict section, should it? Alæxis¿question? 17:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, it should be. The report covers whole conflict including first phases of the war. Ldingley 17:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- If it's written in the report that human rights violations were more intensive on the Abkhaz side during the whole conflict it does not mean that in every phase of the war that was so. Alæxis¿question? 18:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Lead section
The lead section somehow renders Armenians and Russians equal, in a sense, to Abkhazians in the idea of independent Abkhazia. As far as I know, the ideology of separatists was to establish independent state, largely on the basis of the Abkhazian national idea. The wording should be changed. True that most Armenians and Russians fought on the Abkhazian side. Tamokk 04:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Would someone care to clarify?
I notice it with Abkhaz articles especially this one that the Abkhaz war had an extremely bizarre motley crew of nations fighting against the Georgians. I’m just wondering why this was the case. For instance you had Basayev and the Russians and the Confederation of Mountain Peoples of the Caucasus, Cossacks, and the ethnic Armenians all fighting on the same side as the Abkhaz against the Georgians. It seems odd that Basayev and the Russians would fight on the same side; it would be more likely that Basayev would fight against the Georgians. It seems odd that Basayev would fight against the Georgians when Gamsakhurdia recognized the independence of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. It seems odd that Basayev would fight along side Armenians when Basayev found along side Azerbaijan against the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh. It also seems odd that Basayev would fight along side the Abkhaz when the Abkhaz are allied with the Ossetes and Basayev went and blew up the Ossete school in Beslan. Could the article be representing peoples/nations as fighting against Georgia when in fact it was mostly mercenaries? Pocopocopocopoco 02:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- There's nothing really surprising in the list of those who fought against Georgians. Chechen war, Beslan etc happened after the war in Abkhazia.
- The non-Georgian population of Abkhazia (Abkhaz, Russians and Armenians) mostly voted for keeping the USSR during the March referendum and then (mostly) fought against Georgians after Georgian forces occupied Sukhumi and did some not very nice things. This is one set of combatants. Another set of combatants were outsiders, mainly Cossack and North Caucasian volunteers. Abkhaz are ethnically quite close to some North Caucasian nations so it was again not surprising. Shamil Basayev was one of those guys who came to Abkhazia.
- Btw, what do you want to change in the article? Alæxis¿question? 06:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to see more information, perhaps a separate section in the article on the motivation behind the other nations/peoples.
- For instance:
- The Russians
- You mentioned that they were fighting to keep the USSR intact however this occurred Between 1992 and 1993 and the USSR had already disolved. There was no guarrantee that Abkhazia wouldn't turn into another Chechen Republic of Ichkeria
- The Armenians
- I saw on an unreliable source (Abkhazia-e-Caucausia) that the Armenians were initially Neutral however the Mkhedrioni did some nasty things to them so they joined the Abkhaz side
- Dudayev and Chechens
- This seems odd to me as Georgia at the time was sympathetic to the Chechens and Gamsakhurdia recognized Ichkeria in 1991.
- CPC
- I suppose there are culturial links however it seems odd that Sunni Cherkez would fight for Orthodox Abkhaz but I suppose it's possible.Pocopocopocopoco 16:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Most of Caucasian Abkhaz are indeed Orthodox but there's a Muslim minority as well. Actually the religion wasn't the main reason behind any of the Caucasian Post-Soviet conflicts.
- Gamsakhurdia was no longer Georgian president when the Abkhazian war started, btw.
- I wrote about the referendum results just to show the general mood of the non-Georgian population of Abkhazia.
- What you've read at Abkhazia-e-Caucausia is more or less true (imo), see the HRW report ( http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf ) for details. Alæxis¿question? 18:01, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose there are culturial links however it seems odd that Sunni Cherkez would fight for Orthodox Abkhaz but I suppose it's possible.Pocopocopocopoco 16:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Reaction section
Imho the problems with this section are:
- It's not clear why are these people's opinions are chosen to be included here.
- The passages from Prof. Zaza Gachechiladze's article "The Conflict in Abkhazia:A Georgian Perspective" are included in the article as if they were facts.
I also think that the section is rather inflated and should be shortened. Alæxis¿question? 19:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've left the McFarlane's citation for now however it should also be transformed into a concise description of Russia's politics with respect to Georgia and Abkhazia rather than the overview of Russia's politics in all the 'near abroad'. Alæxis¿question? 21:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
pro-Russian
Do you have sources confirming this? Alæxis¿question? 07:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Political POV edits from Sosomk. Mkhedrioni was a paramilitary Georgian organisation which counted tens of thousands members in Georgia. It was anti-Gamsakhurdia but by no way was it anti-Russian. Tamokk 08:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Karkarashvili was a minister of defence of Georgia. Tamokk 08:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Propaganda Poster
Calling that poster a propaganda poster isn't POV, it's just calling it like it is. That poster is a textbook propaganda poster. Please see this page and compare the posters on that page with the one in this article.
- This is just your personal oponion. The poster was designed by a NGO formed by the Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia who are victims of ethnic cleansing and are not allowed to return to their homes. They don't make propaganda, but protest Russian interventionism in their homeland. This differs subsantially from the real prop made by the Kremlin and its PR agents in the West.--KoberTalk 15:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
- Is that poster even worthy of inclusion to Wikipedia then? "Georgian Youth against Russian troops www.forum.ge" is listed as the author however a google search of that name yields only results where that poster has been posted (I suppose there could be hits if the search is done in Georgian). www.forum.ge seems to be some sort of Georgian general purpose messaging board. Wikipedia isn't the place to upload artwork of obscure individual(s).
- No, I never said that it should be removed because I consider it propaganda. I questioned whether it's worthy of this article. If it was something created by some kid on a forum then it's not encyclopedic and should be removed. Pocopocopocopoco 14:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Karkarashvili
I don't quite understand what context are you talking about but if you think something important is missing you should've added it rather than deleting everything. Alæxis¿question? 08:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Alex, if you read his whole speech, you can see that he never said "the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants". So this does not belong here. Why don't you read it first and then add in whatever you think fits here. What you have now can't stay because it's just untrue. (PaC 15:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- Could you write where his full speech could be found? That would be rather helpful. Alæxis¿question? 15:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I saw it in some Abkhaz propaganda literature, so we can't use it as a source, but at least we can say that it was no "worse" then what they are quoting. As for the phrase you were using it actually sounded different. He was warning Ardzinba personally not to make so that the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants, because all the responsibility for the war will be on him. I'm sure you would agree it sounds very different from what you have. Abkhaz separatist widely misquoted and misinterpreted his speech in their propaganda machine to portray all Georgians as fascists and justify their own crimes. We do not want to do the same here, do we?(PaC 15:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- I'm sorry but now what we've got is the citation that was used in the article (Gia Karkarashvili, Georgian Minister of Defence, compounded Abkhaz fears when he threatened in a television broadcast that 'the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants'.3 - we have no reason to doubt the reliability and neutrality of the NGO (Conciliation resources) that published that report) and a short clip where Karkarashvili says that all the Abkhaz could be killed. What sources do you base your assertions on?
- ps. Here's another source I've just found out.
- I saw it in some Abkhaz propaganda literature, so we can't use it as a source, but at least we can say that it was no "worse" then what they are quoting. As for the phrase you were using it actually sounded different. He was warning Ardzinba personally not to make so that the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants, because all the responsibility for the war will be on him. I'm sure you would agree it sounds very different from what you have. Abkhaz separatist widely misquoted and misinterpreted his speech in their propaganda machine to portray all Georgians as fascists and justify their own crimes. We do not want to do the same here, do we?(PaC 15:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- Could you write where his full speech could be found? That would be rather helpful. Alæxis¿question? 15:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
“ | The Commander-in-Chief of the Georgian forces in Abkhazia, Colonel Giorgi Karkarashvili, in an address to the population of Abkhazia broadcast on Sukhum television on 25 August 1992, warned that "Even if the total number of Georgians - 100,000 - are killed, then from your [Abkhazian] side all 97,000 will be killed", and he advised the Abkhazian leader V. Ardzinba "not to act in such a way that the Abkhazian nation is left without descendants" | ” |
- The reference is given to the book "G. Amkuab, T. Illarionova, Abxazija: Xronika neobjavlennoj vojny. Chast' I. 14 avgusta - 14 sentiabria 1992 goda. Moskva, 1992, p. 128". What is written there coincides finely with what is written in the Conciliation Resources report and what we could hear in the clip. Alæxis¿question? 15:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Alex, you heard the video on YouTube of that part (for 100 000 vs 97 000). This translation is not exact. (Of course he says it in broken Russian, so it is hard to translate exactly.) It sounds really more like a warning of not to continue the war, for the consequences would be dire and not a threat to exterminate them. The quote of "the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants" is really ripped from the middle of the sentence, NGO or not. Here's what I found in some pro-Akhaz description of events. The speech is not quoted 100% correctly (if compared to video on YouTube), a word here or there is changed, but anyways they wouldn't make it sound "better", would they? "Хочу дать совет лично господину Ардзинба: пускай он не сделает так, чтобы абхазская нация осталась без потомков, потому что все жертвы и всю ответственность он возьмет на себя." (from here) You can also read in Chervonnaya's "Посткоммунистическая вандея" how often pro-Abhaz media misquoted and misinterpreted his speech. At one point she call's it "oткровенная передержка высказывания Каркарашвили".
- It may be good to work it all in the article if you want - both his speech and its misquoting by separatist supporters for their propaganda purposes.(PaC 18:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- It may be good to work it all in the article if you want - both his speech and its misquoting by separatist supporters for their propaganda purposes.(PaC 18:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
“ | ... Предупреждаю: с сегодняшнего дня грузинской стороне будет запрещено взятие военнопленных. Чтобы не было такого подхода, как будто грузины убивают всех абхазов. Это у нас принято первое решение, чтобы пленных не брать. Те, кто встретит правительственные войска Республики Грузия с оружием, независимо от национальности - русский, армянин, грузин, абхаз или еще кто-то из жителей, проживающих в Грузии, кто встретит правительственные войска с оружием, попадут под действие приказа о том, чтобы пленных не брать.
... В том случае, если переговоры не достигнут успеха, я могу заверить этих сепаратистов, что если из общей численности погибнет сто тысяч грузин, то из ваших погибнут все девяносто семь тысяч, которые будут поддерживать решения Ардзинба. Хочу обратиться ко всем жителям, которые проживают в этом регионе, чтобы они знали, что мы не боремся ни против абхазов, ни против армян, грузин или русских, мы боремся за единство Грузии. Хочу дать совет лично господину Ардзинба: пускай он не сделает так, чтобы абхазская нация осталась без потомков, потому что все жертвы и всю ответственность он возьмет на себя. Пускай он воспримет как ультиматум, что если через двадцать четыре часа эти бандитские, так называемые «военные действия» с абхазской стороны не прекратятся, то грузинская национальная гвардия и все части формирований, которые уже прибывают из Тбилиси, Кутаиси и из разных городов, сходят в гости к господину Ардзинба уже после истечения этого срока»4 |
” |
- So here's what he said (from your link). Let's write then that:
“ | Karkarashvili threatened that 'the Abkhaz nation will be left without descendants' if the Abkhaz don't end the 'so called military operations' in 24 hours | ” |
- and that
“ | Karkarashvili said that if the talks don't succeed and if 100,000 Georgians get killed then all the 97,000 people (all the ethnic Abkhaz) who support Ardzinba will perish. He also announced that the Georgian forces would not take POWs alive. | ” |
Alæxis¿question? 19:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- More like
“ | Karkarashvili urged Abkhaz "bandit formations" to stop all military action and warned Ardzinba personally not to make so that the Abkhaz nation is left without descendants. He placed the responsibility for all future deaths on Ardzinba if the peaceful solution is not reached. | ” |
- What do you propose to include about deliberate misquoting ("oткровенная передержка высказывания Каркарашвили") by separatists for their propaganda purposes?
- I haven't thought about this. This could be decided later. Alæxis¿question? 20:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Also we probably need to find a more reliable transcription of his speech before the final version. This source is generally unreliable. (PaC 19:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- It's rather funny. You've brought that source to support your point and now you claim that it's generally unreliable :) If it's unreliable we are left with the sources I listed in the post of 15:57, 8 July 2007.
- Yeh, I know. Internet is funny that way. Sometimes you find information you are looking for in unquotable sources.(PaC 23:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
- Actually everything except for the passage about the POWs is referenced from those sources (ones we don't have any reason to suspect of bias) so it could still be included. Alæxis¿question? 19:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Alex, as PaC pointed out Karkarashvili addressed directly to the separatist leader and the hardliner Communist politician Ardzinba and placed all responsibilities on him. Why did not you mention this in your new version? --KoberTalk 07:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Before I reply to you could you please answer whether you consider the citation from there truthful or not? Alæxis¿question? 07:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Alex, as PaC pointed out Karkarashvili addressed directly to the separatist leader and the hardliner Communist politician Ardzinba and placed all responsibilities on him. Why did not you mention this in your new version? --KoberTalk 07:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's rather funny. You've brought that source to support your point and now you claim that it's generally unreliable :) If it's unreliable we are left with the sources I listed in the post of 15:57, 8 July 2007.
- What do you propose to include about deliberate misquoting ("oткровенная передержка высказывания Каркарашвили") by separatists for their propaganda purposes?
Sources
PaC, what sources do you use to support your edits? Do you use only BBC Summary of World Broadcasts, 27 August 1992 as you've left only this source? If yes could you post the entire speech of Karakarashvili? If no it's against the rules of Wikipedia as you have to specify where you got the information rather than providing only primary source. Alæxis¿question? 19:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the source. Which rule? I remember somebody quoting 1896 census data without actually seeing the primary source. BTW have you fixed that wrong reference citation of yours?(PaC 20:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC))
- Thanks for reminding that, I've fixed it. So could you post the entire speech of Karkarashvili as you've got access to it? Alæxis¿question? 05:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually your reference has all that stuff. And BTW you can not really demand from editors to post their complete sources here every time you feel like it. You can ask nicely. Otherwise you can go to the library, or archives and do your own homework.(PaC 18:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC))
- According to my English dictionary the questions with the word could "выражают вежливую просьбу что-л. сделать" so I think you can't blame me for asking not nicely. What do you mean by "my reference" now (this or something else)? Alæxis¿question? 19:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'll assume then that this citation is accurate. Alæxis¿question? 16:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- According to my English dictionary the questions with the word could "выражают вежливую просьбу что-л. сделать" so I think you can't blame me for asking not nicely. What do you mean by "my reference" now (this or something else)? Alæxis¿question? 19:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually your reference has all that stuff. And BTW you can not really demand from editors to post their complete sources here every time you feel like it. You can ask nicely. Otherwise you can go to the library, or archives and do your own homework.(PaC 18:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC))
- Thanks for reminding that, I've fixed it. So could you post the entire speech of Karkarashvili as you've got access to it? Alæxis¿question? 05:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm suppose to assume good faith but I'm finding this really suspicious. The reason is that initially user:Sosomk tried to spin the Karakashvili stuff as if Karakashvili and the Mkhedrioni were working for the Russians. He then got blocked for 3RR. Now were getting a different Karakashvili spin that he was some sort of benevolent politician that was trying to warn the Abkhaz against danger but was taken out of context. Pocopocopocopoco 02:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- What exactly are you suspicious about? Cited sources?(PaC 18:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC))
references issues
“ | 1. Numerous war crimes were committed by both sides during the conflict, 2. however, according to UN Mission in Georgia the human rights violation and atrocities were conducted more intensively by the Abkhaz side against the ethnic Georgian population of Abkhazia. 3.UN Mission in Georgia has issued the following statement: “The violation of human rights were committed by both sides of the conflict, however more intensively and systematically by the Abkhaz side which resulted in the death of thousands..” <ref> Annex to the Report of the UN Secretary General on the situation in Abkhazia, Georgia; Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, Georgia UN Mission report chronology, 3 May 1994. </ref> <ref>UNOMIG Observer Report on situation in Abkhazia, November 1993, New York </ref> <ref>Lisbon Declaration, section 20.0 (Un Mission statement), December 03, 1996. </ref> | ” |
There is a couple of questions concerning this paragraph. The third ref is apparently to the following paragraph in the Lisbon declaration:
“ | 20.
We reaffirm our utmost support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders. We condemn the ‘ethnic cleansing’ resulting in mass destruction and forcible expulsion of predominantly Georgian population in Abkhazia. Destructive acts of separatists, including obstruction of the return of refugees and displaced persons and the decision to hold elections in Abkhazia and in the Tskhinvali region/South Ossetia, undermine the positive efforts undertaken to promote political settlement of these conflicts. We are convinced that the international community, in particular the United Nations and the OSCE with participation of the Russian Federation as a facilitator, should continue to contribute actively to the search for a peaceful settlement. |
” |
It could be used to reference the first part of the first sentence of the paragraph and to reference the problems the refugees faced in 1993-1996.
As far as I understand the 2nd part is supported by the 2nd reference (UNOMIG observer report) and the 3rd part is supported by the 1st reference (annex). We have already discussed the problems with the 1st ref and Luis claimed the quoted words are in the paper version even though they didn't get to the online one. Imho some kind of verification is needed here. It would be also interesting to see what else is written in that annex. Unfortunately I couldn't find it in the libraries I have access to so maybe someone could help me with it. Alæxis¿question? 12:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
UNOMIG Observer Report on situation in Abkhazia, November 1993
There're also some problems with this ref. For example, nothing similar could be found in the internet which means nothing but is strange since UN documents are usually available there or at the very least mentioned.
What was passed in November was the Resolution 881 which mentions only Secretary-General's report of 27th of October. Could someone also try to find that observer report and verify what is written there and possibly also inform us what other information it contains. Alæxis¿question? 05:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Cleanup
I tagged the page for cleanup for a couple of reasons: 1. Excessive use of direct citations which is confusing for the first-time readers and diverts them from the chronological description of the events; 2. Selected use of citations from the HRW report; 3. Somewhat Messianic assessment of the Russian role in the conflict; 4. Lack of the Background section which prevents the reader from understanding the reasons behind the conflict; 5. Lack of political analysis from the scholarly sources. I'm going to launch a major improvement drive somewhere in the next week or so. Looking forward for cooperation with you. Thanks, --KoberTalk 07:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I can but agree that there's too much of direct quotations in the article. Regarding the political analysis I'd like to remind everyone that we've also got the article Georgian-Abkhazian conflict which should contain the fullest version of the analysis. I also think it'd be a good idea to write it first. Alæxis¿question? 17:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Improvement certainly needed. I'll try to help. (PaC 17:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC))
Re: Kober's recent revert
Please explain how saying that if 100k Georgians die than all 97k Abkhaz die is not fascist? It makes no sense the way it is, so I'm reverting your revert. If you want to keep those lines in there than please clarify them. Pocopocopocopoco 04:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Mauco, Buffadren or whoever you are. The passage is already referenced and clarified. If you want to throw accusations of fascism around, you can do it elsewhere but not here. So please don't remove the referenced passages just because it doesn't particularly meet your POV. Thanks for your understanding, yours truly KoberTalk 06:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- ^ RFE/RL News Briefs, December 10-23, 1992, p. 10; Moscow Radio Rossii, December 15, 1992, cited in FBIS-SOV-92-242, December 16, 1992, pp. 55-56
- ^ http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf : Human Rights Watch. VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR AND RUSSIA'S ROLE IN THE CONFLICT
- ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/460594.stm