Morenoodles (talk | contribs) What a mess |
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:Technically, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jumpin%27_Jack_Flash&diff=126378744&oldid=124471899 your addition] should have been removed because it lacks any [[WP:RS|sources]] to [[WP:V|verify]] your claims. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based that reports on existing scholarship and [[WP:NOR|does not publish new ideas]]. If you wish to have the connection listed in either article then please locate and [[WP:CITE|provide]] appropriate citations to show that there is more to your claims than simple speculation. --''[[User: Allen3|Allen3]]'' <sup>[[User talk:Allen3|talk]]</sup> 01:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC) |
:Technically, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jumpin%27_Jack_Flash&diff=126378744&oldid=124471899 your addition] should have been removed because it lacks any [[WP:RS|sources]] to [[WP:V|verify]] your claims. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based that reports on existing scholarship and [[WP:NOR|does not publish new ideas]]. If you wish to have the connection listed in either article then please locate and [[WP:CITE|provide]] appropriate citations to show that there is more to your claims than simple speculation. --''[[User: Allen3|Allen3]]'' <sup>[[User talk:Allen3|talk]]</sup> 01:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::this subsection on this Talk page was not a complaint that my edit was removed. Thank you for the tutorial on Wikipedia. But back to the point of this subsection, which hopefully will stimulate discussion. Beyond mere speculation, there does seem to be a possibility of a connection between the song and the legend of the 1837 events. Hopefully there is someone that can answer either way.[[User:Rockford1963|Rockford1963]] 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC) |
::this subsection on this Talk page was not a complaint that my edit was removed. Thank you for the tutorial on Wikipedia. But back to the point of this subsection, which hopefully will stimulate discussion. Beyond mere speculation, there does seem to be a possibility of a connection between the song and the legend of the 1837 events. Hopefully there is someone that can answer either way.[[User:Rockford1963|Rockford1963]] 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC) |
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==It's a mess== |
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This article really is the most dreadful mess. Normal for a WP article, terrible for something labeled a "Featured Article". |
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*Early reports: None of this is sourced, either to primary or to secondary sources. |
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*Official recognition: |
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**The content of this long quotation could easily be boiled down into two to four sentences. It's "As quoted by Jacqueline Simpson, ''Spring-Heeled Jack'' (2001)". The list of "References" (apparently "ordered" at random, as in the first ever assignment by a very green undergrad) does show a leaflet. Copac doesn't list any such thing (searched for by author:Simpson and title:Jack). Amazon.co.uk does list a book cowritten by Simpson with Jack in its subtitle. Could the material also be somewhere in this? Isn't it published in a book or journal? And just where in the ''Times'' does Simpson say it comes from? |
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**The long quotation starts off referring to people, plural, but within the very first sentence switches to one person. There's no comment on this, and no "[sic]". |
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*The legend spreads: |
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**''This was followed up (see Palmer's index to ''The Times'')....'' Hell, no. The library I use is pretty good but lacks this. The authors of an FA should do the spadework themselves (though this phrase raises the suspicion that it was lifted uncritically from some secondary (tertiary, quadernary?) source that couldn't be bothered. |
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**''A report from Northamptonshire, in Hampshire,....'' Was Northamptonshire in Hampshire back then? Well well. |
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**Not sourced. |
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*The last reports: |
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**Citations of 19th century papers of unspecified dates. Why not specify? Did the authors of this FA actually examine these things (or microfiches of them) themselves? Hard to believe -- and if they didn't, where are the secondary sources? If the secondary sources don't give the details (date, page), tell us they don't: then I for one will know for sure what I already suspect, that the secondary sources are sloppy. |
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**No source for the Aldershot incident. |
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**No source for the Newport Arch incident. |
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**Or the Everton one. |
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**Or the Houston one. |
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**The Herefordshire one ''is'' sourced. Or rather, a botched attempt has been made to source it. It comes from [http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/haunted/haunt1.htm this web page] in which somebody says that in 1997 he was contacted by some gent who'd claimed he'd had this experience more than a decade previously. Oh, sorry, this isn't just "somebody"; the site's top page informs us that ''Each week in Highlander Web Magazine, Haunted Scotland brings you stories of Ghosts, UFO's, Castles, Sightings and Strange Phenomina ''[sic]'' reported throughout Scotland....'' The editors of ''Britannica'' must be quivering in terror at this demonstration of scholarly rigor in an article "featured" by its main rival! |
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*Sceptical positions: |
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**''This idea matches the contents of the letter to the Lord Mayor, which accused a group of young aristocrats as the culprits, after an irresponsible wager.'' Actually it matches the first part of the first sentence of that garbled letter: thereafter, the letter was about a singular miscreant. (I say garbled, because the writer says "durst not" where they clearly mean "durst", etc.) |
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**"Some sceptics", "other researchers", etc.: ''name them.'' |
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**Brewer is well known; some of his books are easy to locate in libraries of moderate size. So why not specify where he made his comment? |
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*Paranormal conjectures: |
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**"Supporters of this theory": ''name them.'' |
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**"A visitor from another dimension": name anybody who believes this gibberish, aside from the one person who's linked to, and whose fragrant musings on that very page include such nuggets as: ''Back in the 1980's'' [sic] ''I read John Keel's The Mothman Prophecies. I have to say that this really strange book actually kept me up at night with the implications of the strange things that actually COULD be "out there" and about which we knew very little. / I recently read a bumper sticker that said: "if you are not outraged, you aren't paying attention." Well, I would like to amend that to "If you are not AMAZED, you aren't paying attention!" There are things going on here on the Big Blue Marble that are just perfectly astounding!'' Oh, right, and perhaps preteens, the senile, etc. |
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**The German springy devices: A note seems to imply that this info is sourced. It isn't: the link leads to a moderately interesting page on SHJ whose comment on the devices reads in full: ''Quick fun fact: During the first World War, the Germans tried to build spring-loaded shoes to help soldiers move faster. Initial testing resulted in an 85% rate of men breaking both their ankles and limping for the rest of their lives.'' And this in turn isn't sourced. If this matter is important, where's the credible source? |
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*In popular culture: |
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**Why the hell cite some obscure pamphlet in order to cite the ''OED'' (which, being a ''dictionary'', doesn't usually "recount" anything)? Look in the ''OED.'' Incidentally, I've just taken a quick look myself in the 2nd (1989) edition of the ''OED''. Between the entries for "spring-headed" and "springily" there is: Nothing. Just where is this within the ''OED''? |
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**Compare: (i) ''<u>Almost from the moment the first incidents gained public knowledge</u>, he turned into a successful fictional character, becoming the protagonist of many penny dreadfuls <u>from 1840</u> to 1904. ...'' // (ii) ''A play by John Thomas Haines, in 1840, Spring-Heeled Jack, the Terror of London, ... <u>Later that decade</u>, Spring Heeled Jack's first penny dreadful appearance came...'' So within the space of a few lines his first appearance as a protagonist of a penny dreadful has moved from 1840 to later in the 1840s. The "moment" was no later than a few days after "a few months after" with the Lord Mayor's presentation (9 Jan '38); "Almost from the moment" here seems to mean a year or more. Or have I misunderstood? |
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All the best revising this thing! -- [[User:Morenoodles|Morenoodles]] 05:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:47, 29 May 2007
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SHJ in Monmouth, 1948
Mention of this alleged sighting has been added and deleted a couple of times recently (not by me)... for the record, the earliest mention I have of the supposed Monmouth incident is a one-sentence mention on fuschiashockz.co.uk, an online cyberpunk/mysteries 'zine, dating to the summer of 2003. Text reads, in full:
- "The last recorded sighting of Spring heeled Jack came in 1948 when the
people of Monmouth in Wales saw a strange white clad man jumping back and forth between the banks of a river."
No source is given and I've never encountered mention of the incident elsewhere... it's certainly not well evidenced enough to be added here. Mikedash 18:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Alsop and Sheffield
'He escaped conviction only because Jane Alsop insisted her attacker had breathed fire, and Millbank admitted he could do no such thing. There is little doubt that this, the best documented of all Jack's activities, was the work of a drunken carpenter.' How can there be little doubt if the witness herself said he 'breathed fire'? Also, has anyone else heard of the sightings from the 60's and 70's from Sheffield?(Halbared 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
- The passage is confused because the first sentence you quote was written by the main author of the article, Shauri, and the second was interpolated a few weeks ago by a more sceptical user. Typical Wikipedia, in other words.
- As for Sheffield, yes, reports from 1873 are documented; haven't got anything from the 1860s and would be interested to hear from anyone who does.Mikedash 12:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Oblivion Reference
I have been watching the revert war over the pop culture reference of Spring Heeled Jack in the Oblivion game for a while now. I see no rhyme or reason for why this reference keeps getting removed. How is mentioning that Oblivion has a reference to Spring Heeled Jack less relevant than a little known band or that Morrissey has a partial reference in a song title? —Asatruer 19:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- The various entries listed under pop culture are to help provide a feeling for how public perception of Spring Heeled Jack have changed over time. A minor mention of the name attached to a video game artifact that is not even important enough to be listed in the article about said game does nothing to impact public perception. Combine this with the wording of the addition placing greater emphasis on the game and the company that produces it as opposed to the mention itself and you are likely to find a very healthy number of people viewing the addition as spam. --Allen3 talk 00:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
If your concern is that mentioning Oblivion as having the wrong emphasis, rather than completely removing the reference, changing the emphasis would seem the better course of action. Though if the primary issue you have is that it does nothing to impact the public perception of Spring Heeled Jack, than I do not see how the Morrissey song or the band Spring Heeled Jack does this, nor — in all fairness — do I see the "recent" comic authors like Ver Curtiss, Kevin Olson and David Hitchcock as having any impact on this public perception of Spring Heeled Jack. It seems to me to be inconsistent to single out the Oblivion reference.
Perhaps renaming the "Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture" section is in order? How about "Spring Heeled Jack in literature"?
As for the "very healthy number of people viewing the addition as spam".
Jooler, Centauri, Ziul Leirbag, Bobblewik and myself have all either replace a removed Oblivion reference, or edited an existing Oblivion reference without removing it. Compared to Allen3, JeremyA and DreamGuy who have consistantly removed the Oblivion reference. By numbers alone, it looks as though both opinions on the matter seem to be roughly equal, with neither being a healthy majority.
—Asatruer 15:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- As you do not agree with the argument that the referenced item is only an tertiary item and thus not significant, you must still deal with the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability. I have done some web searches and found numerous chat room references but nothing resembling a reliable source that supports the claim that the item has the properties described or that the item has any sort of connection to Spring Heeled Jack. --Allen3 talk 11:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you will find that Oblivion having an item called "Boots of Springheel Jak" is more verifiable from reliable sources as an item in that game than that the Morrissey song "Spring Heeled Jim" has anything to do with Sping Heeled Jack. If the Morrissey song is good enough to stay on the page with only a name that happens to be similar to the name of the article, I see no reason why an item in Oblivion that happens to have a name more similar to the name of the article should be repeatedly removed from the article. —Asatruer 15:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- The requested reference for Spring Heeled Jim located and added. --Allen3 talk 16:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That referenced article draws no connection between the song title "Spring Heeled Jim" and the english folklore character Spring Heeled Jack. —Asatruer 17:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Remomved as horribly trivial and unencyclopedic. A mere mention in a game for an item based loosely upon a topic in no way meets the level of mention in an encyclopedia article. These kind of references do not meet notability guidelines and are routinely removed on other article, so of course they need to be removed here. DreamGuy 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain why you feel a game reference is trivial fictcruft crap and why you are so vehement that it must absolutely not stay?
Why do you feel that the fact that Morrissey happens to have a similar title is a more noteworthy reference. The song has no other connection or relation to Spring Heeled Jack other than a vague similarity of name, the lyrics have nothing to do with the folklore of Spring Heeled Jack. At least with the Oblivion reference about the "Boots of Springheel Jak" the name is more similar, as well as the item granting great leaping abilities to the wearer, clearly this is more likely a actual reference to the folklore character Spring Heeled Jack.
Also, you have made no comment on why you are removing the references about the recent comic books featuring Spring Heeled Jack. This is even more clearly on topic with this article than either a Morrissey song or an item in a computer game. —Asatruer 15:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Doing a google search for "Boots of Springheel Jak" shows to me that this item exists in the game and confers similar abilities to the wearer. I vote to add its reference back into the article. Jeff schiller 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Spring-Heeled Jack in popular culture
I honestly don't know of any references to this other than an art gallery image[1] and his open-sourced game statistics, under the fiend entry and listed as "Jumping Jack" [2] (which lack the flavor text found in the product linking him to the folklore figure), but Spring-Heeled Jack (also called a "Jumping Jack, or "Bloodfiend" in the book) is a type of fiend in the d20 Modern Roleplaying Game. It can be found in the d20 Menace Manual.
A Screenplay has been written by a couple of UK writers on Spring Heeled Jack and the synopsis can be found at: http://inktip.com/searchbywriterid2.php. It has also been mentioned that this is also available on the script swap website.
I know of someone currently writing a story about a superhero based on Spring Heeled Jack, but he jumps with rocket boots or something.
NPOV
I had brought this point up in the past, but nothing was done about it, so I finally took care of it myself. The claim that Spring Helled JAck was real and actually existed and attacked people and so forth is a POV. Writing the artilce in such a way that the claims and reports and stories and legends are presented as 100% factual was a MASSSIVE violation of WP:NPOV policy. I have gone through and reworded many sentences all over the article to go with the neutral and factual information that people reported this things, that they were alleged, and so forth. This was badly needed and long overdue.
If you have a problem with some of the versions of the new wording, feel free to edit to try to make it read more smoothly. Do not, however, try to change the wording back to claim that these events actually did not happen, because that is taking a position on a controversial topic, and encyclopedia articles simply do not do that.
No doubt other edits will be needed to make the NPOV even more readable... I know the skeptical position of the article read like it was written by a proponent of the paranormal view who wsa trying to make fun of the skeptics or didn;t understand what they are saying. DreamGuy 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Whilst I support the removal of some of the less notable pop-culture references I think that going through the article liberally adding allegedly everywhere is unnecessary. I refer you to Shauri's previous comments on this matter. The claim that SHJ was real is not POV, in fact no author who has researched SHJ has questioned his existence--what authors differ on is whether or not SHJ was a paranormal phenomenon. The article as it was made this distinction clear, reporting the different explanations on equal terms and allowing the reader to decide. JeremyA 04:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
A Screenplay has been written by a couple of UK writers on Spring Heeled Jack and the synopsis can be found at: http://inktip.com/searchbywriterid2.php
Pop culture references
I have reverted the blanking of valid pop culture references by Victrix, as the content is valid, on-topic, verifiable and there is no consensus for its removal. Editors should also note that there is strong suspicion that DreamGuy and Victrix are the same person. --Centauri 02:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Protected
The article has now been protected to prevent this edit war from continuing as requested at WP:RfPP. Please work out your issues and reach a compromise. Once you believe that you have reached an agreement on the matter and protection is no longer necessary, please contact me or post a request for unprotection. Note that my protection of the current version is not an endorsement of the version; it merely got protected at whatever state it was at when I arrived. AmiDaniel (talk) 04:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'd like to request that somebody please fix the Multiverse link (in the Paranormal conjectures section) to point to one of the actual multiverse pages (probably to Multiverse (science))rather than the disambiguation page. Could an admin take care of this, or anybody else once the page is unprotected? Thanks. --Mbell 22:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry + 3RR abuse
Further to my comments above it has now been established that DreamGuy and Victrix are indeed the same person. --Centauri 04:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Please take a look at the CheckUser scale of likelihood — Confirmed-Likely-Possible-Inconclusive-Unrelated — to avoid making erroneous claims. "Likely" does not rise to "established" — how could it, when the decision "confirmed" was also available to the CheckUser admin? If you want to invite admin action in this matter, please take it to WP:ANI, as I have already advised User:Englishrose.[3] It's better to get more eyes and an informed discussion, rather than posting your own idiosyncratic interpretation on talkpages as if it were uncontested fact. Bishonen | talk 14:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC).
- Likely means just that - more likely than not. Your continued defense of DreamGuy/Victrix is puzzling to say the least. There is an extremely small possibility that they are not the same person, but all available evidence - and there is a LOT of it, extending over a LONG period of time strongly indicates otherwise. --Centauri 11:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Spelling
It's an article about a British topic, so "skeptical" should be spelt "sceptical". Any mods care to oblige? Thanks. —Wereon 19:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- No. English Wikipedia supports the use of both British English and American English, but not at the same time. An article should be written entirely in one dialect/whatever, and as it is already in American English, it should be left that way. Freedomlinux 03:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- The appropriate guideline for this issue is Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English. Using the principle of "If there is a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, use that dialect" this article should use British English for this very British subject. --Allen3 talk 10:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Request unprotection?
I have seen no substantive discussion of the problems in the article in the last two weeks. Unless there is objection, I will request unprotection. Calwatch 23:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- There has been no discussion substantive or not so I agree, please do so if you have not done so already—Asatruer 14:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have unprotected it. Please discuss controvertial changes here rather than edit waring. --JeremyA 01:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Could jack be active today Karzack 04:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, yes he could. It is very unlikly, because the last recorded sightings of him date back around two hundered years ago, but he still may be lurking around the streets somewhere. ~VNinja~ 01:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm very happy
Ok, so this might be kinda stupid to post this, buuuuuuut.... I used to be the only person who paid attention to this article for a while, after I archived the talk page, and a little while before. So I'm very glad that more people are talking on the talk page and helping out with this article... that is all. ~VNinja~ 22:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Very Cool
This guy looks very cool. I can see some kewl screen names coming from this guy.
...in Popular culture, revisited
I just restored the last bit of the Popular culture section again and an idea occurred to me about this section. I agree with the sentiment that the section is getting a little long, but I think it would be better to consider splitting the section off into its own article, something link Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture. Add the {{main|Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture}} template to the top of this articles Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture section followed by a paragraph or two summarizing the old section then move it to its own article. I am worried though that this might be too small just by itself, but it is an idea.
Anyone have any particular opinion on the matter?
—Asatruer 17:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it's worth its own article. We just need to trim down the verbosity of this section, it looks too wordy anyway. Jeff schiller 20:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- Asatruer's idea is an excellent one. It has proved impossible to stop users, particularly Elder Scrolls fans, adding material that has very little to do with Spring-heeled Jack; simply editing down the section on popular culture has not worked. Mikedash 21:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- Folks love the "...in Pop culture" thing: it gives them a chance to contribute (which is, I think, really good for first-time editors). On the other hand, it can easily turn into fan service, or bloat to the point where it over-shadows the source article. I don't, however, think that agressive deletions is the best way to handle the issue-- which I suppose is a long-winded way of saying that I agree with Asatruer. To go even further, I think that a Spring Heeled Jack (Elder Scrolls) page would probably be in order, if there is some particular wealth of information about whatever that might be. I have no idea what it might refer to, but heck, make an article, Elder Scrolls fans. Be bold. -mordicai. 21:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I believe the 'Boots of Springheel Jak' are a clear reference to the subject of this article, and therefore should be included in this article. However, they only appear in a single quest, and there is little more to say about them other than what is already here, so the character in the game (who likewise mainly appears in that quest alone) doesn't really merit his own article. However, the Thieves' Guild page could be updated to give brief summaries of each of their quests - in that case, more information could be put there. Ygoloxelfer 17:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I added that the Marvel character Toad was likely inspired by Spring-heeled Jack, as he was a British character with a freakish appearance whose sole power originally was a boosted leaping ability. He was also created around the same time as the other characters mentioned. Please leave it be. If I can't find a direct quote from Lee or Kirby referencing SHJ I may delete it. Unsigned, but added by User:68.166.68.84
- It really has to work the other way around. Find a reference from Lee or Kirby showing a direct link between SHJ and Toad, then add it - otherwise it's pure speculation, which has no place in an encycopedia. Mikedash 07:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen quite a few articles that state so-and-so may have influenced so-and-so with no citation. No one from DC or the creator of Zorro explicitly state that SHJ influenced Batman or Zoro as far as I know, but it's in the article. I don't really care though. 68.166.68.84 14:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I see it has been tagged up as needing Spring Heeled Jacks in popular culture and I agree. However, these entries can be tricky. I've started a few that have worked and edited a few that have got deleted. The critical factor is setting the remit and policing it hard. The entry on Edgar Allan Poe in popular culture seems to be working OK because the editors are fairly much on the same page and suspect material is tagged or taken to the talk page (depending on how supect it is). You'd have to stay focused solidly on SHJ appearing as a fictional character as references to him, allusions (where unproven), etc. while cause the entry to start bloating with trivia and will run into trouble. So basically I think it is a good idea, it is required (things have clearly reached a crisis point where a split is needed - I've seen it happen on other entries) and it can be a viable standalone entry with care and attention. For starters the whole Zorro/Batman/Lone Ranger paragraph could go and I'd be worried about this "There is also a veiled reference to Jack in Tim Powers' novel, The Anubis Gates." (Emperor 21:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
- As a sidenote a large proportion of the section has been removed in this edit [4] following this FA review [5] and while one could argue that it was a) premature b) misunderstanding what was said as this supports the section: "The popular culture could do with some trimming (it shows a lack of balance between the different elements at the very least), but, bearing in mind the subject, I would think a large amount of the article should be dedicated to it." it does show a separate section is needed. The fact that we have sources for him inspiring a number of comic characters and also being the eponymous character in other comics I'd suggest that it is important information worth keeping... somewhere. I do think a spearate entry will need heavy policing but it is doable. (Emperor 13:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC))
- Yes, I said it needed trimming and balancing, not the obliteration of everything but penny dreadfuls. There was a large section explaining the plot of one book that I removed yesterday, but in my opinion most of the rest was valid though in need of a little rationalisation. A couple of examples of different uses with some explanation of the development of the character would be fine, especially if the bulk of this section is to appear in a separate article. Yomanganitalk 20:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm very unhappy
I'm looking for information on a siege weapon called a springhald, and I get redirected here >:( AllStarZ 03:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Spring heeled Jack versus Batman I remember reading a Batman story in an anthology celebrating a Batman anniversary (that also had a Black Widowers story by Isaac Asimov in it) where a student was possessed by SHJ after being cut by a razor that he had found after researching ripper crimes. SHJ was presented as some sort of God of the Razor who was conjectured to be the real cuplrit of the crimes of Jack the Ripper and other famous criminals, and lead to the student murdering several prostitutes around Gotham's tube system. Batman duly did battle and was only able to win when the moon was blocked by clouds during their final encounter, as this broke the link between the God and his host. The story was interesting for looking at how an obsession with urban legends ended up in making them come true, and also for testing Batman's belief in rational explanations for seemingly paranormal events. I can't remember who wrote it or what the anthology was called but if anyone out there knows it would be good to include it in the Popular Culture section. 89.242.221.68 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Lo
I'm very ambivalent
Footnotes are excellent to have, but they're an outdated kind. ;/
All right, this isn't a real complaint, just going along with a couple threads above. ;) CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 03:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Dates
In the History section: first para says first reports in December 1837; second para says "Later, in October 1837..." PiCo 07:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- Should be clarified. First newspaper reports were Dec 37. First rumours, apparently Sep 37. Mikedash 08:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Recent case
It was removed but I spotted the news report earlier today [6] and it does have SHJ parallels. I'm unsure if it is worthy of inclusion here but the source is AP so is fairly legit as far as it goes [7]. (Emperor 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC))
- You should also note that of the two links provided, it is the blog and not the news report that mentions SHJ. As the reliable source only mentions Batman and not SHJ, it is original research to imply that this was a new SHJ sighting. --Allen3 talk 04:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- That was, sort of, my point (or I'd have put it back in but with the source). When you look at the original report it is rather sketchy (although it is SHJ-like). I will keep an eye out for follow ups. Interesting that one of the most recent cases was called the "Houston Bat Man" though. (Emperor 05:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC))
- This morning's news indicates that the event was an apparent hoax ("Student lied about Batman, school says", The Arizona Republic, February 16, 2007). --Allen3 talk 17:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Good find. I bet there will still be a couple of attempts to add it back in before it fades away (the follow up never makes as much of a splash as the initial report). (Emperor 17:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC))
My edit to the article Jumpin Jack Flash (The Rolling Stones song) suggested a connection to or and inspiration from the Spring Healed Jack story. Another reverted my edit saying there was no connection. Maybe that peson was right. However, can others illiuminate this? The Rolling Stones were a London band, and certainly would have known about Spring Healed Jack. "Jumping" seems very close to someone using spring heals. "It's a gas, gas, gas" - could be a reference to the spitting of flames? And the weirdness of Spring Healed Jack certainly would fit the Stone's style. The cover of their single has some visual qeues that also may suggest Jumping Jack Flash. Your thoughts?Rockford1963 17:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Technically, your addition should have been removed because it lacks any sources to verify your claims. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based that reports on existing scholarship and does not publish new ideas. If you wish to have the connection listed in either article then please locate and provide appropriate citations to show that there is more to your claims than simple speculation. --Allen3 talk 01:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- this subsection on this Talk page was not a complaint that my edit was removed. Thank you for the tutorial on Wikipedia. But back to the point of this subsection, which hopefully will stimulate discussion. Beyond mere speculation, there does seem to be a possibility of a connection between the song and the legend of the 1837 events. Hopefully there is someone that can answer either way.Rockford1963 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
It's a mess
This article really is the most dreadful mess. Normal for a WP article, terrible for something labeled a "Featured Article".
- Early reports: None of this is sourced, either to primary or to secondary sources.
- Official recognition:
- The content of this long quotation could easily be boiled down into two to four sentences. It's "As quoted by Jacqueline Simpson, Spring-Heeled Jack (2001)". The list of "References" (apparently "ordered" at random, as in the first ever assignment by a very green undergrad) does show a leaflet. Copac doesn't list any such thing (searched for by author:Simpson and title:Jack). Amazon.co.uk does list a book cowritten by Simpson with Jack in its subtitle. Could the material also be somewhere in this? Isn't it published in a book or journal? And just where in the Times does Simpson say it comes from?
- The long quotation starts off referring to people, plural, but within the very first sentence switches to one person. There's no comment on this, and no "[sic]".
- The legend spreads:
- This was followed up (see Palmer's index to The Times).... Hell, no. The library I use is pretty good but lacks this. The authors of an FA should do the spadework themselves (though this phrase raises the suspicion that it was lifted uncritically from some secondary (tertiary, quadernary?) source that couldn't be bothered.
- A report from Northamptonshire, in Hampshire,.... Was Northamptonshire in Hampshire back then? Well well.
- Not sourced.
- The last reports:
- Citations of 19th century papers of unspecified dates. Why not specify? Did the authors of this FA actually examine these things (or microfiches of them) themselves? Hard to believe -- and if they didn't, where are the secondary sources? If the secondary sources don't give the details (date, page), tell us they don't: then I for one will know for sure what I already suspect, that the secondary sources are sloppy.
- No source for the Aldershot incident.
- No source for the Newport Arch incident.
- Or the Everton one.
- Or the Houston one.
- The Herefordshire one is sourced. Or rather, a botched attempt has been made to source it. It comes from this web page in which somebody says that in 1997 he was contacted by some gent who'd claimed he'd had this experience more than a decade previously. Oh, sorry, this isn't just "somebody"; the site's top page informs us that Each week in Highlander Web Magazine, Haunted Scotland brings you stories of Ghosts, UFO's, Castles, Sightings and Strange Phenomina [sic] reported throughout Scotland.... The editors of Britannica must be quivering in terror at this demonstration of scholarly rigor in an article "featured" by its main rival!
- Sceptical positions:
- This idea matches the contents of the letter to the Lord Mayor, which accused a group of young aristocrats as the culprits, after an irresponsible wager. Actually it matches the first part of the first sentence of that garbled letter: thereafter, the letter was about a singular miscreant. (I say garbled, because the writer says "durst not" where they clearly mean "durst", etc.)
- "Some sceptics", "other researchers", etc.: name them.
- Brewer is well known; some of his books are easy to locate in libraries of moderate size. So why not specify where he made his comment?
- Paranormal conjectures:
- "Supporters of this theory": name them.
- "A visitor from another dimension": name anybody who believes this gibberish, aside from the one person who's linked to, and whose fragrant musings on that very page include such nuggets as: Back in the 1980's [sic] I read John Keel's The Mothman Prophecies. I have to say that this really strange book actually kept me up at night with the implications of the strange things that actually COULD be "out there" and about which we knew very little. / I recently read a bumper sticker that said: "if you are not outraged, you aren't paying attention." Well, I would like to amend that to "If you are not AMAZED, you aren't paying attention!" There are things going on here on the Big Blue Marble that are just perfectly astounding! Oh, right, and perhaps preteens, the senile, etc.
- The German springy devices: A note seems to imply that this info is sourced. It isn't: the link leads to a moderately interesting page on SHJ whose comment on the devices reads in full: Quick fun fact: During the first World War, the Germans tried to build spring-loaded shoes to help soldiers move faster. Initial testing resulted in an 85% rate of men breaking both their ankles and limping for the rest of their lives. And this in turn isn't sourced. If this matter is important, where's the credible source?
- In popular culture:
- Why the hell cite some obscure pamphlet in order to cite the OED (which, being a dictionary, doesn't usually "recount" anything)? Look in the OED. Incidentally, I've just taken a quick look myself in the 2nd (1989) edition of the OED. Between the entries for "spring-headed" and "springily" there is: Nothing. Just where is this within the OED?
- Compare: (i) Almost from the moment the first incidents gained public knowledge, he turned into a successful fictional character, becoming the protagonist of many penny dreadfuls from 1840 to 1904. ... // (ii) A play by John Thomas Haines, in 1840, Spring-Heeled Jack, the Terror of London, ... Later that decade, Spring Heeled Jack's first penny dreadful appearance came... So within the space of a few lines his first appearance as a protagonist of a penny dreadful has moved from 1840 to later in the 1840s. The "moment" was no later than a few days after "a few months after" with the Lord Mayor's presentation (9 Jan '38); "Almost from the moment" here seems to mean a year or more. Or have I misunderstood?
All the best revising this thing! -- Morenoodles 05:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)