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Stating Poland was similar to Nazi Germany is obviously a fringe extreme view that can't be put as off hand fact in the article. We could put it in article about Hagen's views.--[[User:MyMoloboaccount|MyMoloboaccount]] ([[User talk:MyMoloboaccount|talk]]) 14:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC) |
Stating Poland was similar to Nazi Germany is obviously a fringe extreme view that can't be put as off hand fact in the article. We could put it in article about Hagen's views.--[[User:MyMoloboaccount|MyMoloboaccount]] ([[User talk:MyMoloboaccount|talk]]) 14:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC) |
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: Please do mind [[WP:BLPTALK]], and provide sources for your claims. I provided a top-notch source here. Are you contesting the reliability of the [[The Journal of Modern History]]? Should we take this to RSN? [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 14:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC) |
: Please do mind [[WP:BLPTALK]], and provide sources for your claims. I provided a top-notch source here. Are you contesting the reliability of the [[The Journal of Modern History]]? Should we take this to RSN? [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 14:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Yeh, after looking at this source, I agree with Icewhiz: it can be used here. The only question: how exactly the content should be summarized, and what other sources tell about it to comply with WP:NPOV. Just saying, "hey, it was just like Nazi Germany" would be wrong; that sounds like an anti-Polish propaganda. One should describe ''specifics'' per multiple RS (so, yes, the "specifics" per quotation by Icewhiz above I think can be included). I can see that the challenged edit was "The Polish parliament then passed anti-Jewish legislation similar to [[Anti-Jewish legislation in pre-war Nazi Germany]]". Yes, that claim does look questionable and unnecessary, given that next phrase explains what exactly was the law in Poland at at this time, and it was indeed anti-Jewish [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Racism_in_Poland&diff=898879931&oldid=898868987]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Polish / Romani / Jewish equivalence or lack thereof under Nazi rule == |
== Polish / Romani / Jewish equivalence or lack thereof under Nazi rule == |
Revision as of 20:01, 16 June 2019
![]() | Discrimination Start‑class Low‑importance | |||||||||
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![]() | Poland Start‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
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Removed fringe claim that Poland was like Nazi Germany
I have removed a fringe claim that Poland was like Nazi Germany.Even if some author would claim that, that claim is such extreme that it would require numerous strong sources. While no doubt some discrimination of Jews did happen, this view is not shared by mainstream research(and we shouldn't forget that Jewish parties were represented in Polish parliament, Poland had Jewish ministers, generals and so forth). --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Any basis for the removal other than WP:IDONTLIKE? This was published in The Journal of Modern History, cited some 80 times, by a mainstream historian - William W. Hagen - tenured at a top-tier university. The source quite clearly states
"Even though in various ways the Polish regime in fact fell short of fascism, the cumulative effects on the Polish Jews of its hostile policies, as well as of Endek aggression and the consequences of demographic growth amid still widespread economic depression, were threatening them by 1939 with conditions comparable to those to which the German Jews had been reduced"
. There's nothing particularly unusual with the comparison of Poland in 1939 (prior to September) to Germany in 1936. Icewhiz (talk) 14:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I am reading the source now and so far it seems attributing this claim was very, very far fatched, Cohen at every point makes reservation statements about comparing the two, makes statements that not all was similar, and some of the claims attributed to him are quotes from interviews he presents, not actuall statement of facts.There are numerous examples on how Poland was different from Germany etc.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Content removed in diff, supported by:
"In 1938 OZON came to dominate the Polish parliament, where it began drafting anti-Jewish laws of the kind adopted in Germany between 1933 and 1935
. - Odd removal (of bank credit discrimination) and fact tag - diff - clearly supported by citation:
"Already since the early 1920s the Polish government had systematically excluded the Jews from employment in the public sector, from obtaining licenses to operate businesses in the broad sphere of the government-regulated or governmentmonopolized economy, and from receiving any considerable government bank credits. In the 1930s the realm of official and semiofficial discrimination expanded to encompass limits on Jewish export firms, on Jewish artisan shops, on ritual slaughtering (which was a major source of tax income for Jewish communal self-government), on admission to medical practice and the bar, on membership in nationwide business associations, on access to universitypreparatory secondary education and university-level student organizations, and, increasingly, on university admission itself. In 1921-22 some 25 percent of Polish university students were Jewish, but in 1938-39 their proportion had fallen to 8 percent.
.Icewhiz (talk) 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC) - I am citing Hagen, not Cohen. And it isn't attributed - Hagen in The Journal of Modern History is stating this in his own voice. Certainly there were particular points of difference between Polish and Nazi legislation, however Hagen makes his conclusion in that the result was similar. Icewhiz (talk) 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Stating Poland was similar to Nazi Germany is obviously a fringe extreme view that can't be put as off hand fact in the article. We could put it in article about Hagen's views.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Please do mind WP:BLPTALK, and provide sources for your claims. I provided a top-notch source here. Are you contesting the reliability of the The Journal of Modern History? Should we take this to RSN? Icewhiz (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Yeh, after looking at this source, I agree with Icewhiz: it can be used here. The only question: how exactly the content should be summarized, and what other sources tell about it to comply with WP:NPOV. Just saying, "hey, it was just like Nazi Germany" would be wrong; that sounds like an anti-Polish propaganda. One should describe specifics per multiple RS (so, yes, the "specifics" per quotation by Icewhiz above I think can be included). I can see that the challenged edit was "The Polish parliament then passed anti-Jewish legislation similar to Anti-Jewish legislation in pre-war Nazi Germany". Yes, that claim does look questionable and unnecessary, given that next phrase explains what exactly was the law in Poland at at this time, and it was indeed anti-Jewish [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 19:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Polish / Romani / Jewish equivalence or lack thereof under Nazi rule
I reverted this, as the cited source in the article - USHMM - says "In contrast to Nazi genocidal policy that targeted all of Poland's 3.3 million Jewish men, women, and children for destruction, Nazi plans for the Polish Catholic majority focused on the murder or suppression of political, religious, and intellectual leaders. This policy had two aims: first, to prevent Polish elites from organizing resistance or from ever regrouping into a governing class; second, to exploit Poland's leaderless, less educated majority of peasants and workers as unskilled laborers in agriculture and industry."
. The notion that the the Nazis genocided Poles is a distinct minority view in WWII research - and in any event is not comparable to the Nazi genocide of the Jewish and Roma populations. Should we present such a minority view in the article, it should be clearly attributed (and sourced!) and with the majority view clearly presented as well. Icewhiz (talk) 16:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- It is distinguished as "cultural genocide". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
- That could be worked in (as well as forced labor, deportations, killing of elites, ...) - however that is different from complete physical destruction. I will also note (in relation to the lede) that this is not a Holocaust article - but an article on racism in Poland.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
- Your revert went far beyond just hair splitting over whether extermination is extermination or not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
- That could be worked in (as well as forced labor, deportations, killing of elites, ...) - however that is different from complete physical destruction. I will also note (in relation to the lede) that this is not a Holocaust article - but an article on racism in Poland.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
15th century racism?
I have removed a chunk of information that seems to be about religious strife-it doesn't seem to be in relation towards racism(which would be strange for 15th century)--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
- Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism. Icewhiz (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
"Serial genocide"
"Serial genocide" - What is this? In the internets I read: "“Serial” genocide perpetrators slip under the radar as much now as genocide did relative to individual murder prior to Lemkin" implying serial genocide is not the same as the UN-standard definition of genocide. I am asking because this term is used in recent change by Molobo. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:05, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
No attacks against Jews
Poland and Hungary are the most safe places for Jews in Europe. You don't inform about it quoting professional anti-anti-Semites, who earn their money researching anti-Semitism. Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Bawer Aondo-Akaa is an expert
Dr Bawer Aondo-Akaa is a physically handicapped Afro-Pole, who cooperates with Polish nationalists. He is obviously more commpetent than professional "researchers". He participates in Independence Marches, describeed sometimes as fascists and racist.Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Jews in particular, that have faced hostility and suspicion.
Unsourced manipulation. The mentioned Polish Tatars were respected soldiers. The Jews isolated themselves from the society. The situation of the Jews was however apparently acceptable, they didn't emigrate to Western Europe. Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)