Captain Occam (talk | contribs) |
Captain Occam (talk | contribs) →Significance and policy relevance: finally added: new section |
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:I'm going to edit the lead section in order to fix some of these problems. Since the version of the lead that existed on June 4th was the last version that was clearly supported by consensus, I think anyone who would like to implement large changes to this section should discuss these changes here, and obtain consensus for them before reinserting them. (That is, the "D" in [[WP:BRD]].) --[[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam|talk]]) 09:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC) |
:I'm going to edit the lead section in order to fix some of these problems. Since the version of the lead that existed on June 4th was the last version that was clearly supported by consensus, I think anyone who would like to implement large changes to this section should discuss these changes here, and obtain consensus for them before reinserting them. (That is, the "D" in [[WP:BRD]].) --[[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam|talk]]) 09:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC) |
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== Significance and policy relevance: finally added == |
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After more than a month of discussion ([[Talk:Race_and_intelligence/Archive_79#The_.22significance.22_section | here]], [[Talk:Race_and_intelligence/Archive_79#Significance_and_policy_relevance_.28revised.29 | here]], [[Talk:Race_and_intelligence/Archive_80#Preliminary_Review_of_Significance_and_Policy_Relevence_.28revised.29_Section | here]], and in the mediation archives), I think we’ve finally come to enough agreement about what this section should contain that it’s ready to be added to the article. In addition to the changes that I and others have already made this section in response to the feedback It’s received in those threads, I’ve also followed these more recent suggestions I’ve received about it: |
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*Per Aprock: the article now summarizes and links to the relevant parts about other articles on similar topics; namely [[Intelligence and public policy]] and [[Intelligence_quotient#Positive_correlations_with_IQ]]. I’ve also added two more secondary sources to this section, Jensen 1998 and Nisbett 2009, in response to your complaint that this section relies too heavily on primary sources. |
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*Per Victor Chmara: the section no longer discusses the book ''World on Fire'', and ''IQ and the Wealth of Nations'' is credited to both of its authors rather than just to Lynn. I’ve also added a more recent source discussing Jensen’s views about education. |
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*Per Slrubenstein: I’ve gotten rid of the “between nations” section, and added the information about correlations with national IQs to the “IQ differences outside the USA” section instead. |
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Thanks to everyone who’s made suggestions about this section. As a result of all of your advice, I think this section is a lot better-written and more neutral than the version of it that was in January’s version of the article. I’m sure it still isn’t perfect, but I would hope that any additional changes to it can be made by editing it within the article, rather than doing a wholesale revert. The article’s under 1RR right now anyway, so trying to edit war over this section probably isn’t a good idea. --[[User:Captain Occam|Captain Occam]] ([[User talk:Captain Occam|talk]]) 10:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC) |
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some changes
Changed genetics to molecular genetics. There was a previous discussion during mediation where it was agreed that molecular genetics and heritability are related but separate approaches to studying IQ differences.
The section on brain size gave the impression that the magnitude of brain size differences is fixed when it is highly variable. There was no mention that races overlap in brain size too.
The Lynn data is as usual controversial and shouldn't be treated as factual. Rusthon is not a physical anthropologist to be a reliable source musculo-skeletal traits. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you provide a reference for brain size differences being highly variable? And I'm not sure your argument that Rushton is not an anthropologist so any reference he makes to anthropology should be censored holds water. Surely he was collating data from anthropologists. If you can find an anthropologist who disagrees with him, that would be a reasonable argument. mikemikev (talk) 09:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lieberman is a good secondary source for just that. [11]--Ramdrake (talk) 12:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't find it, sorry. Can you be more specific? mikemikev (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Page 70 of the article. It lists a variety of results by researcher.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- We've already established that that table isn't about racial brain size hierarchy. mikemikev (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, the table is about brain size hierarchies, showing that different researchers find different results, therefore a great variability.--Ramdrake (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- So you need to point to studies from 1849 (I won't even bother to double check them) to decide how we word the article regarding MRI variability? mikemikev (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- We use secondary sources like Lieberman. Wikipedians' personal points of view carry no weight at all. Mathsci (talk) 20:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ramdrake, this is quite simple. Even if the table is about brain-size differences (it's called "Changing Racial Hierarchies" and a preliminary double check of the sources seems to indicate that it's more about intelligence hierachies), historical changes in between group brain size difference estimation have no bearing on within group variability for modern tests. Using this as an argument to say modern data is "highly variable" is simply ludicrous. Unless you can find a better source for within group brain size variablility, a specific data set, not some cobbled together obfuscatory nonsense about the 1800's, then I intend to reinstate the brain size section.
- Mathsci: What you write has no relevance to the argument. mikemikev (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Nisbett, a good and recent secondary source, discusses the cranial size data at some length.·Maunus·ƛ· 10:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rushton found a standard deviation of about 10%. Would it be acceptable to put the numbers back in and add the standard deviation? mikemikev (talk) 11:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not based on Rushton. Also, the high variability of brain size in the population in general is something that is relatively well-known and uncontroversial, enough that it's mentioned as the very first sentence of this review: [12]--Ramdrake (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see what we would gain by inserting a controversial number of contested accuracy, other than build up an illusion of authority and accuracy. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not based on Rushton. Also, the high variability of brain size in the population in general is something that is relatively well-known and uncontroversial, enough that it's mentioned as the very first sentence of this review: [12]--Ramdrake (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rushton found a standard deviation of about 10%. Would it be acceptable to put the numbers back in and add the standard deviation? mikemikev (talk) 11:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Nisbett, a good and recent secondary source, discusses the cranial size data at some length.·Maunus·ƛ· 10:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- We've already established that that table isn't about racial brain size hierarchy. mikemikev (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Page 70 of the article. It lists a variety of results by researcher.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Couldn't find it, sorry. Can you be more specific? mikemikev (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem I have with the brain size data is that I don't see how a race difference must be caused only by genes. I suspect environment-- especially pre-natal-- can affect brain size too. I know one study Rushton cites shows size differences in utero, but that still is not direct evidence of genetics to me (albeit prenatal development is not my area of expertise). -Bpesta22 (talk) 03:30, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Another problem is that brain size within humans varies from about 1000 cc to about 2000 cc, and shows a high variability (they even documented a PhD student in mathematics -- otherwise doing very well -- with a brain close to 1000 cc) So, holding that a mere difference of a few cubic centimeters influences intelligence (as is one of the tenets of Rushton's hypothesis, for example)is a problematic statement to neurobiologists.--Ramdrake (talk) 04:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Maunus, I've yet to see anybody demonstrate it's controversial, other than OR personal opinions. Is Rushton's peer reviewed paper which is taking fire from all sides not reliable enough for you? Is that because you don't like Rushton? Perhaps you have a better source.
- BPesta, whether or not it's genes or environment (I don't know, but I would guess genes is a bigger factor) the fact is that the brain size difference is there.
- Ramdrake, you're still not getting it. The variability for the whole population has no bearing on the within group variability. If I say "grapefruits are bigger than oranges", you can't say, "no, because fruits are all different sizes". You need a source which states the within group variability. Rushton is the only one I know of, and a within group standard deviation of 10% is not "highly variable". mikemikev (talk) 13:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- You have been presented with counterarguments from both Liberman and Nisbett who both reject the vaidity of Rushtons conclusions - are you just ignoring those because you don't like them? ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've clearly demonstrated that Lieberman says nothing of the within group variability of brain-size. Right now you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La-la-la, I don't want to hear it". You've not actually presented anything from Nisbett other than saying "Nisbett talks about cranial capacity". That's not a counterargument. mikemikev (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are you just trolling now? Cause then I'll have to stop feeding you. When you get tired of that and want to engage in a discussion please tell me and I'll stop ignoring you then. ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Maunus, this is not an acceptable response. I warn you to watch your manners. mikemikev (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are you just trolling now? Cause then I'll have to stop feeding you. When you get tired of that and want to engage in a discussion please tell me and I'll stop ignoring you then. ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've clearly demonstrated that Lieberman says nothing of the within group variability of brain-size. Right now you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La-la-la, I don't want to hear it". You've not actually presented anything from Nisbett other than saying "Nisbett talks about cranial capacity". That's not a counterargument. mikemikev (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- You have been presented with counterarguments from both Liberman and Nisbett who both reject the vaidity of Rushtons conclusions - are you just ignoring those because you don't like them? ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- DONALD P. CAIN and C. H. VANDERWOLF (From Rushton's own department): "Zuckerman and Brody (1988) concluded from a partial analysis of Rushton’s theory and his cited evidence that he (1) used strained logic, (2) used sources that lack credibility, (3) selectively cited data that support his theory, (4) used sources that did not control for socioeconomic class, and (5) did not use statistical analyses to establish his claims. In general, we confirm these criticisms from a more detailed examination of Rushton’s cited evidence on race, brain size and intelligence. In addition, we found that Rushton miscited conclusions and numerical data from certain studies, without providing an explanation for the divergence from the original published form of the conclusions and data. If a theory in science does not mesh with the larger framework of what is known about the topic, most scientists would tend to reject it if it does not have very strong evidence in its favor. Since Rushton’s theory is not in accord with what is known about brain size and intelligence, and since the evidence for Rushton’s claimed relation between brain size and intelligence and differences in brain size between human subgroups is unconvincing and his theory is based on a superficial analysis of the available data, we are probably on firm ground if we reject it."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Alexander Alland Jr. (Evolutionary anthropologist) "Race in Mind" p. 165 "It [Rushton's argument that brain size enlargment is expensive for evolution and therefore must have had a high benefit] also ignores the fact that normal brain size in humans varies widely. Within the normal range very intelligent individuals have been found with relatively small brains and rather dull individuals have been found with relatively large brains."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Liberman in the cited paper: "Rushton’s view depends on a traditional concept of “race” that 20th-century genetics has shown to be invalid. He ignores research showing that cranial size varies significantly with latitude, not with race. He combines many populations into three races without establishing the biological similarity of the populations within each race and significant differences between them. He attributes inferior behavior to Africans and superiority to Asians without establishing that the behavior he cites is defined in the same way in different societies. He lists brain measurements for which there were no control variables and dismisses the influence of nutrition on cranial size and/or IQ."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Nisbett 2010: "A difference between black and white brain size is not always found, however (National Aeronautics and Space Administration, 1978). More important, the correlation found within the white population probably does not indicate that greater brain size causes higher IQ. Within a given family, the sibling with the larger brain has no higher IQ on average than the sibling with the smaller brain (Schoenemann, Budinger, Sarich, and Wang, 1999 )." "One large sample of blacks shows that the cranial capacity of black females was the same as that of whites, yet the IQ difference was the usual standard deviation typical of the gap at the time the data were collected (Joiner, in press). The IQ difference therefore is found in the absence of a cranial-capacity difference."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- You are aware that article already discusses whether brain size explains the IQ gap, with Neisser saying it's not good evidence? It also discusses whether environment/nutrition is the cause. What we're (trying to) discuss here is the within group variability of absolute brain size, in light of the fact that Muntuwandi removed the data, with the argument "highly variable", remember? You're not actually addressing the point. mikemikev (talk) 11:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rushton and Jensen 2010: Nisbett cited a study by Joiner [143] that found Black females had equal or larger crania than White females but a lower IQ score. Nisbett used this finding to cast doubt on the causal relationship between race, brain size, and IQ. He failed to mention that Joiner’s sample was of 12- to 18-yearolds who had previously been analyzed by Rushton and Osborne [154] in a study of the heritability of cranial capacity in which an age x sex x race interaction found that girls matured earlier than boys and Blacks matured earlier than Whites, resulting in young Black girls being larger in body (and head) size than their White counterparts. However, by the end of the adolescent growth spurt, the typical race x sex pattern of differences clearly emerges (Fig. 6). The disordinal age x sex x race interactions have been found for samples of 7- to 17-year-olds since 1899 [155]. mikemikev (talk) 12:06, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Nisbett 2010: "A difference between black and white brain size is not always found, however (National Aeronautics and Space Administration, 1978). More important, the correlation found within the white population probably does not indicate that greater brain size causes higher IQ. Within a given family, the sibling with the larger brain has no higher IQ on average than the sibling with the smaller brain (Schoenemann, Budinger, Sarich, and Wang, 1999 )." "One large sample of blacks shows that the cranial capacity of black females was the same as that of whites, yet the IQ difference was the usual standard deviation typical of the gap at the time the data were collected (Joiner, in press). The IQ difference therefore is found in the absence of a cranial-capacity difference."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- DONALD P. CAIN and C. H. VANDERWOLF (From Rushton's own department): "Zuckerman and Brody (1988) concluded from a partial analysis of Rushton’s theory and his cited evidence that he (1) used strained logic, (2) used sources that lack credibility, (3) selectively cited data that support his theory, (4) used sources that did not control for socioeconomic class, and (5) did not use statistical analyses to establish his claims. In general, we confirm these criticisms from a more detailed examination of Rushton’s cited evidence on race, brain size and intelligence. In addition, we found that Rushton miscited conclusions and numerical data from certain studies, without providing an explanation for the divergence from the original published form of the conclusions and data. If a theory in science does not mesh with the larger framework of what is known about the topic, most scientists would tend to reject it if it does not have very strong evidence in its favor. Since Rushton’s theory is not in accord with what is known about brain size and intelligence, and since the evidence for Rushton’s claimed relation between brain size and intelligence and differences in brain size between human subgroups is unconvincing and his theory is based on a superficial analysis of the available data, we are probably on firm ground if we reject it."·Maunus·ƛ· 11:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
(reset indent) This doesn't change the fact that you've now been presented with multiple references that all speak to the high variability of brain size both in humans in general and within groups such as self-defined racial groups.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I missed the study that demonstrates a high variability of brain size within racial groups, which one was it again? mikemikev (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- We've already provided you with several references which show that Rushton's conclusion aren't accepted by many researchers because they find flaws in both the data and the methodology used. This isn't a debate about who's right, this is about whether it can be verified that Rushton's conclusions aren't held as credible by many in the scientific community. Puhsing this point further is only a waste of time.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I love how you have to resort to the weasely "many scientists" argument. You've just presented a couple of fringe nitwits saying "I disagree with Rushton". What a laughable argument. mikemikev (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not to be rude, or anything, but it is inapropriate for you to judge individuals as "fringe nitwits." Cite reliable sources stating such. Hipocrite (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I think Mikemikev just ran out of arguments, so he's resorting to name-calling. The discussion's over, I guess.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, the discussions over. I'll be restoring the data at the next opportunity. mikemikev (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- If you are referring to scientists like Richard Nisbett, Nicholas Mackintosh or Joseph L. Graves as "fringe nitwits", that would be a BLP violation. It would also suggest that your own awareness of the scientific world is skewed; normally membership of the United States National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society is.taken to be an indication of eminence. Mathsci (talk) 08:35, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, the discussions over. I'll be restoring the data at the next opportunity. mikemikev (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I think Mikemikev just ran out of arguments, so he's resorting to name-calling. The discussion's over, I guess.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not to be rude, or anything, but it is inapropriate for you to judge individuals as "fringe nitwits." Cite reliable sources stating such. Hipocrite (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I love how you have to resort to the weasely "many scientists" argument. You've just presented a couple of fringe nitwits saying "I disagree with Rushton". What a laughable argument. mikemikev (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- We've already provided you with several references which show that Rushton's conclusion aren't accepted by many researchers because they find flaws in both the data and the methodology used. This isn't a debate about who's right, this is about whether it can be verified that Rushton's conclusions aren't held as credible by many in the scientific community. Puhsing this point further is only a waste of time.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Alexander Alland is one of the world's top (if not the top) authority on race, and is a noted biological anthropologist who published a textbook on human evolution. Nisbett has done authoritative research in cognitive psychology. Lieberman is another leading expert in race. Mikmike is pusing a racist point of view that is also fringe science, and rejects as sources widely respected scientists. Mikey, you may like spouting racist views among your friends, but Wikipedia is not your soapbox. It is an encyclopedia and we have higher standards for content. Maunus is contributing to what might become a good article. Since you seem incapable of making an intelligent contribution, can I suggest you go somewhere else. I mean, Wikipedia has thousands of articles, surely one of them is actually on a topic you know something about. Why don't you want to make a positive conribution to Wikipedia? Really? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, can you please explain specifically what data you think is missing from the “brain size” section? This section currently presents Rushton’s (and Jensen’s, and Neisser’s, and Ho’s) view about brain size varying with race, and it also presents the view of other researchers such as Lieberman who consider brain size to vary based on latitude and not race. It doesn’t describe either Ho or Lieberman as being right or wrong, and I don’t think it should; I think just presenting both viewpoints about this is what’s most consistent with NPOV policy.
- Perhaps you already explained this and I missed it, but I really don’t see what’s wrong with how the current article handles this topic. If you think there’s something wrong with how this is in the current article, could you please be more specific about what the problem with it is? --Captain Occam (talk) 02:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Occam, all I'm requesting is that the brain size average figures are put back in, and I also suggest adding the within group standard error from Rushton. There is no reason to remove this sourced content. All I'm getting in response is personal opinions and irrelevant quotes. Some editors seem to think that simply presenting someone who disagrees with Rushton about something unrelated is a valid counterargument, and I'm starting to wonder whether WP:COMPETENCE is lacking here. Anyway, what do you think?
- SLR and Mathsci, my opinion that they are nitwits is neither a BLP violation, nor the point. The point is that all of the quotes provided fail to address the argument. SLR, you need to rein in those personal attacks. Calling me "racist" is especially inappropriate here. I would hate to have to report you. mikemikev (talk) 09:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- If you really think you are right about Richard Nisbett and Nicholas Mackintosh being "fringe nitwits", why not check that at WP:RSN? You could even try WP:FTN. Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- DNFTT mikemikev (talk) 10:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, what do you mean? Who is the troll here? What is your evience?
- Mike, having a source is not sufficient grounds for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. It must also be a significant view. You wish to add fringe views to the article. No, that is not going to hapen. Please stop repeating the fact that you have sources; we all get that, we agree you have sources, this is not relevant to the disagreement. The question is whether the views are fringe or not. And Maunus has provided compelling evidence that they are fringe views. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would also like Mikemikev to explain what he means. Mathsci (talk) 11:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, that data is not going into the article. When Rushton ventures into anthropometrics and population behavioral statistics he is a psychologist dabbling in the territory of anthropologists. We have several physical anthropologists saying that the data that Rushton's analyses are based on is not comparable, is incorrectly gathered and incorrectly processed making any conclusions based on them invalid. On top of that they state that his methods of comparison would not even be valid IF the data was of sufficient quality to even make those comparisons. This means that his numbers are utterly contested and cannot be used in the article without a full discussion of their flaws - this article is not long enough to go into that, nor is it the right place to do it. It is quite obvious that while the hereditarian viewpoint per se is not fringe science but Rushton's cranial size studies are fringe science and nearly uniformly rejected by those who have expertise in the field. The article needs to treat the topic of cranial size correlations with IQ - but presenting numbers is not an option untill there are statistics available the validity of which there is general agreement about among experts. Now, I fully expect one of your confrontational one-line dismissals to this arguments, and frankly I am only writing this rebuttal to show that I (and the others including Occam and David Kane) are in fact working to improve this article by discussing, compromising and colaborating towards an improvement. I have not once seen you working collaboratively and collegially towards imnproving the article, I have not seen you suggest a single improvement to the article that could be agreed on by all editors, and the only constructive edit I have seen you make to the actual article was fixing a typo (thanks for that though). Frankly it is hilarious to see you warining others to mind their manners or accuse them of trolling. I giggled out loud when I read your response to my previous post, I am sure other editors also saw the irony. Now, making it absolutely clear that untill I see clear evidence that you start working with other editors to constructively improve this article instead of merely halting all progress by spewing out confrontational, negative remarks to every proposal and making unreasonable demands that other editors do your homework for you, I am not going to waste any more of my time arguing with you. I urge other editors to do the same and simply ignore all unconstructive comments (from Mike or anyone else) that do not directly aim to improve article content in a collaborative, collegial manner.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Maunus the original brain size section was discussed here. It was written by TechnoFaye, modified by me according to concerns from Mathsci, and implemented by David Kane.
- I consider much of what you wrote above to be a personal attack. Even if it was true that my only contribution here was to correct a typo, so what? Please don't try to assume authority here.
- To return to the point: We have some anthropologists who dispute Rushton. Does this mean we censor Rushton? No, we put in both sides. A consistent finding of a racial brain size difference stratified according to military rank seems pretty notable to me. Properly attributed, it should go into the article. And you're welcome to add the explanation of how some anthropologists think this is invalid (can you summarize it for me, because I'm not seeing it). mikemikev (talk) 11:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, that data is not going into the article. When Rushton ventures into anthropometrics and population behavioral statistics he is a psychologist dabbling in the territory of anthropologists. We have several physical anthropologists saying that the data that Rushton's analyses are based on is not comparable, is incorrectly gathered and incorrectly processed making any conclusions based on them invalid. On top of that they state that his methods of comparison would not even be valid IF the data was of sufficient quality to even make those comparisons. This means that his numbers are utterly contested and cannot be used in the article without a full discussion of their flaws - this article is not long enough to go into that, nor is it the right place to do it. It is quite obvious that while the hereditarian viewpoint per se is not fringe science but Rushton's cranial size studies are fringe science and nearly uniformly rejected by those who have expertise in the field. The article needs to treat the topic of cranial size correlations with IQ - but presenting numbers is not an option untill there are statistics available the validity of which there is general agreement about among experts. Now, I fully expect one of your confrontational one-line dismissals to this arguments, and frankly I am only writing this rebuttal to show that I (and the others including Occam and David Kane) are in fact working to improve this article by discussing, compromising and colaborating towards an improvement. I have not once seen you working collaboratively and collegially towards imnproving the article, I have not seen you suggest a single improvement to the article that could be agreed on by all editors, and the only constructive edit I have seen you make to the actual article was fixing a typo (thanks for that though). Frankly it is hilarious to see you warining others to mind their manners or accuse them of trolling. I giggled out loud when I read your response to my previous post, I am sure other editors also saw the irony. Now, making it absolutely clear that untill I see clear evidence that you start working with other editors to constructively improve this article instead of merely halting all progress by spewing out confrontational, negative remarks to every proposal and making unreasonable demands that other editors do your homework for you, I am not going to waste any more of my time arguing with you. I urge other editors to do the same and simply ignore all unconstructive comments (from Mike or anyone else) that do not directly aim to improve article content in a collaborative, collegial manner.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would also like Mikemikev to explain what he means. Mathsci (talk) 11:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- DNFTT mikemikev (talk) 10:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- If you really think you are right about Richard Nisbett and Nicholas Mackintosh being "fringe nitwits", why not check that at WP:RSN? You could even try WP:FTN. Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Maunus is not alone here. I personally do not care who contributed to the text, or by how much, my only concern is the text, which imports fringe science verging on pseudoscience into the article. This is not "censoring" Rushton who - I observe - seems never to fun out of outlets to publicize his views. This article is not about everything Rushton thinks. We include Rushton's views on those areas in which he has expertise. Here we have Rushton writing about matters outside of his expertise. There is someone with a PhD in geology who has published a book on his own theories about Jesus and quess what: we do not use him as a source in the article on Jesus. That Rushton has expertise on some things does not make him an expert on all things. This is not a matter of "some anthropologists" disagreeing with Rushton, this is a matter of Rushton trying to write on a topic that he has no expertise on, and those people with expertise on it (you know, PhDs and stuff) consider his writing looney. As to your not "seeing it," well, Maunus provided the sources, go read them. If you still don't see it wait until you go to college and take some classes in anthropology, hopefully there will be a TA who can help explain it to you. In the meantime, fringe views beyond Rushton's expertise have no place in the article. Now, here is something I do not get: you just implied that Mathsci's concerns were accounted for in this version. Why? What do you mean to suggest by this? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- So you think measuring brain size is out of field for psychologists? I'll ask some of my friends at the various neuro-imaging labs in London (you know PhDs and stuff) what they think about that. Oh wait, no I won't, because it's ridiculous.
- Do you think attempting to elucidate the genetics of intelligence is out of field for psychologists, and that studying subpopulations isn't one of the normal ways to do this?
- And I can't really be bothered answering your question about Mathsci. mikemikev (talk) 13:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, it would be ridiculous - because we are talking about brain size data here, not functional MRI imaging. But we are used to ridiculous comments from you. And also uestions that you cannot or will not answer. Typical signs of a disruptive editor. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:28, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, it would be ridiculous because measuring brain size is very much the preserve of psychologists, probably more so than anthropologists. MRI is one way to measure it. What you write is just mind-bending rhetoric. You appear to have little integrity, or understanding. mikemikev (talk) 14:55, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Dude, i am sure all of us here would agree that if you shoot someone in their frontal cortex (or surgically removes a portion of the frontal cortex), it will likely have an effect on their intelligence. Is this all you have been trying to prove? It has nothing to do with Rushton's claims being discussed here, which, I guess I have to repeat for you, are outside of his expertise. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Fine, just keep repeating yourself. It seems I'll have to take you to a noticeboard.
- Anyway, let's take a look at the sources Maunus provided, that apparently blow Rushton's brain size data out of the water so much we can't even mention it (incidentally if this was actually the case, wouldn't you want it to be in the article?).
- selectively cited data that support his theory - this is from 1988, right? Anyway, it's too vague to consider.
- normal brain size in humans varies widely - that's what you'd expect if there was a racial brain size difference.
- that cranial size varies significantly with latitude, not with race - finding one doesn't preclude the other.
- shows that the cranial capacity of black females was the same as that of whites - citing one sample of adolescents, when it's known that black girls reach maturity faster than whites? That's what I call selective, and disingenuous (possibly even nitwitical). And I thought psychologists were out of field here?
- I can see why you don't want to put the refutations in with the data, you don't have any. And Maunus, don't throw references at me and ask me to "do my homework". You need to make your case.
- Another thing I think you're failing to understand is that this is not about whether brain size explains the racial IQ gap, just about the data. mikemikev (talk) 17:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for beginning to argue your case, Mike. I apologize for what you perceived as a personal attack - I did not mean to attack you but to point out that certain patterns of your behaviour are deteimental to the progress here. Now: I am only adressing the data - the explanation is a different issue. The data Rushton bases his numbers on has been declared invalid (a very strong word in academia) by several unrelated researchers, even some from Rushton's own department. That means that writing "The average brain volumes (in cm3) are approximately 1,268 (Africans), 1,362 (Europeans), and 1,415 (East Asians). [6]" is a gross violation of WP:UNDUE it presents highly contested analyses as fact. Even if we were to put in several paragraphs of explanation of why those numbers have been rejected by a multitude of experts the fact that we even include them would be to give them undue weight. Rushton's theories should be mentioned, but they are much less accepted and much more criticized than most of the other points in the debate and this should be clearly visible to the reader, and we should not simply throw Rushton's numbers out there for the lay reader to make sense of. ·Maunus·ƛ· 07:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- The sources you've provided do not support your argument. One of them was from 1988, so clearly not about the modern data. One talked about whole population variabilty: irrelevant. And I hardly think Lieberman and Nisbett represent a "multitude of scholars". Also it will be difficult to summarize their "declarations of invalidity" without making them sound ridiculous, but I guess you will have to try. mikemikev (talk) 08:27, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I won't because the data is not going into the article. Rushton's research doesn't have a shred of credibility. Rushton's research is even used as textbook example about how not to make arguments in evolutinary anthropology. Maybe you should try to find a source that supports his research that isn't a close friend of his or a Pioneer grantee. The only one sounding ridiculous here is you defending the inclusion of data that has been squarely rejected by the scientific community as if it were the holy grail. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:12, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't need to find a source which supports it, it supports itself. You need to find a source which refutes it. It doesn't seem like you can. It really is quite a simple experiment: randomly select people of different races, and measure their brain size. Very easy to refute. Please stop claiming to speak for the "scientific community" or "most scientists", your attitude is distinctly unscientific. mikemikev (talk) 11:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, the sources which demonstrate that Rushton's data and methods do not have credibility have already been presented to you above (there are more), but you dismissed them. Please remember that, according to Wikipedia policy, we cannot judge sources and therefore your dismissal of the refutations is not allowed. However, there are so many refutations to Rushton's brain size data and analysis that we couldn't put it in without giving up a huge chunk of space to all its critics, which on the one hand would be necessary to represent it as its proper level of acceptance "in the real world" but would on the other be a gross violation of WP:UNDUE (devoting this much space to a hypothesis which is overall soundly rejected by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community). What you personnally think of Rushton's data or of the arguments of his detractors doesn't matter; there are compelling reasons not to include it, and I believe most editors here agree that it should be left out. Please remember: Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "Truth".--Ramdrake (talk) 13:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Guys, DNFTT Slrubenstein | Talk 14:01, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ramdrake, we use some discretion when selecting sources. For example, your source from 1988 which you claim refutes data from the 90's. Maybe wiki isn't about truth (shame), but neither is it about obvious nonsense. Please present all of your brain size data refutations, I have no reason to believe they exist. And you're just lying about a brain size gap being "soundly rejected by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community". Neisser acknowledges it, for one, as do all hereditarians, Flynn, Wicherts, actually I can't think of one psychologist other than Nisbett who doesn't. But luckily we have Ramdrake, voice of "the overwhelming majority of the scientific community", zero evidence firmly in hand. I can I see I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you, I'll just take it a noticeboard, after you revert me and start stonewalling. I'm happy to put in a few counter-arguments, but for you to claim we can't do that because you have too many to list, and then just listing the ones we already have, plus a few red herrings, is pretty weak. mikemikev (talk) 14:43, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Mike, the sources which demonstrate that Rushton's data and methods do not have credibility have already been presented to you above (there are more), but you dismissed them. Please remember that, according to Wikipedia policy, we cannot judge sources and therefore your dismissal of the refutations is not allowed. However, there are so many refutations to Rushton's brain size data and analysis that we couldn't put it in without giving up a huge chunk of space to all its critics, which on the one hand would be necessary to represent it as its proper level of acceptance "in the real world" but would on the other be a gross violation of WP:UNDUE (devoting this much space to a hypothesis which is overall soundly rejected by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community). What you personnally think of Rushton's data or of the arguments of his detractors doesn't matter; there are compelling reasons not to include it, and I believe most editors here agree that it should be left out. Please remember: Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "Truth".--Ramdrake (talk) 13:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't need to find a source which supports it, it supports itself. You need to find a source which refutes it. It doesn't seem like you can. It really is quite a simple experiment: randomly select people of different races, and measure their brain size. Very easy to refute. Please stop claiming to speak for the "scientific community" or "most scientists", your attitude is distinctly unscientific. mikemikev (talk) 11:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I won't because the data is not going into the article. Rushton's research doesn't have a shred of credibility. Rushton's research is even used as textbook example about how not to make arguments in evolutinary anthropology. Maybe you should try to find a source that supports his research that isn't a close friend of his or a Pioneer grantee. The only one sounding ridiculous here is you defending the inclusion of data that has been squarely rejected by the scientific community as if it were the holy grail. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:12, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
More information on variance of groups
I think that it would be helpful to include more information about the distributions of IQ scores in different groups. It looks like the only graph that takes into account via standard deviation of IQ, is from Richard Lynn. I think it might be helpful to represent these data as a histogram rather than a really smooth bell curve as well, just because it conveys a sense of precision, which may be misleading. Check out this image to get a sense of what I mean: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/121421245_612f18cd62_o.jpg
This image has no error bars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SAT-verbal-by-race-ethnicity.png or any indication of 25th to 75th percentile, std deviation, etc. Am I alone in thinking that this is a serious problem? 24.13.82.216 (talk) 03:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Good suggestions. Wikipedia's article Correlation and dependence shows how many different data relationships can have many of the same summary statistics. The closer the article gets to the empirical data, the better.
WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 01:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Debate assumptions
At one point, we had a separate section entitled "Debate assumptions." I wrote a part of this and several other editors contributed as well. That section was lost (I hope inadvertently) in some recent bold editing. I am adding it back in. I have picked the most recent stable version. I am also removing overlap material from the new section entitled Current debate. I make no claims about whether or not the material in "Debate assumptions" is perfect. Like all aspects of the article, it could be improved. But an entire section should not be deleted without us reaching some form of consensus. (I have no objection to bold editing of the content of the section, for BLP reasons or otherwise. I just object to the section itself disappearing. See previous discussions here and here. Note our extensive discussions about this section during mediation: here and here. I hope that, before major editing takes place, editors might read this background and outline some of their concerns so that we can discuss them. David.Kane (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- In reading through the article, and that at least some believe it is a victim (perpetrator?) of systemic bias, I rather think some of the intrinsic problem here can be handled by a judicious renaming, that is Race and tests of intelligence. Race and measures of intelligence sounds more encyclopedic but is, IMHO, open to the same problems as the current title.
- The results of cognitive, deductive, spatial etc. skills measured in intelligence tests cannot help but reflect both the innate capabilities of an individual as well as that individual's capabilities as either enhanced or inhibited by their circumstances—from education to nutrition to home life and beyond.
- Such a renaming would serve to organize the discussion along the lines of:
- Who was tested for what/when/how
- What were the results
- What was the interpretation of the results
- by those conducting the tests
- by those participating in the tests (if available)
- by outside observers, this would be organized primarily by
- those engaged in the study of intelligence through the administration of standardized tests and by other means, and
- those who are members of social and/or ethnic groups by which tests have been (widely) conducted and/or tabulated (from larger samples)
- debate in the media and society (focusing on serious discussion, not the usual arguing over whose hearsay is "more right" than someone else's)
- Just some thoughts. PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 16:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
"Unbiased"
I would like to remove the first part of the first sentence in the "Flynn effect" section: "Although modern IQ tests are unbiased". The reference states the following: "Despite widespread belief to the contrary, however, there is ample evidence, both in Britain and the USA, that IQ tests predict educational attaintment just about as well in ethnic minorities as in the white majority." The only thing this reference says is that IQ tests predict educational attaintment equally for both groups. Well, of course! The education system is probably biased in the same way as IQ-tests are biased, valuing certain capacities higher than other ones. So, unless anybody has any good arguments against this, I'll remove this part of the sentence, but not sooner than 13/6. Lova Falk talk 09:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yes. Please go for it. And well done pointing out how these "facts" can be misinterpreted. HiLo48 (talk) 10:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- If you read some of the sources for this article, you'll see that IQ predicts a lot more than just educational achievement. It also predicts job performance, income, lifespan, and law abidingness, all to the same degree for all ethnic groups. In order for test bias to account for this, the people in either ethnic group who are favored by test bias would have to be the exact same people favored by bias in all of these other aspects of life.
- Here we go again. Bias is a scientific concept. The research shows no slope / intercept bias and measurement invariance. Validity is a scientific concept. One form of validity is predictive-- a sense of what a test measures can be inferred by what the scores predict. Perhaps you should get some sources at hand, and maybe operate under the assumption that researchers in this area are not so droolingly incompetent that they haven't looked into these issues over the last 100 years or so. -Bpesta22 (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- This article is probably about to enter arbitration, so most of the people who are normally involved in it aren't currently as active as they normally are. Perhaps coincidentally, there are a lot of questionable changes that have been being made to the article lately, with little or no discussion about them about the talk page. I'm not sure what ought to be done about this, since most of the regulars here are under a 1-revert-per day restriction in preparation for the arbitration case, but it would be nice if more or the regulars could pay attention to what's going on here and see if they can come up with any ideas about how to handle this. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- I am clearly none of the regulars, and I don't even know what you mean by this "1-revert-per day restriction", but you can certainly drop a note on my talk page if you would like me to revert a dubious edit. I'm happy to check and revert if I agree it is not a good edit.Lova Falk talk 11:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- One has to be really careful with this information. It may be that there is a correlation between IQ, educational achievement, job performance, income, lifespan, and law abidingness. But a correlation does not automatically mean that any one of those factors causes the others. HiLo48 (talk) 11:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- No, correlations don't say anything about causality. But my point is that this correlation does not mean that IQ-tests are unbiased. Lova Falk talk 11:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- But correlations DO say something about cause. One cannot use a correlation to prove cause, sure. But, cause implies correlation. What evidence would you need to conclude that IQ tests are not biased? Could you describe the data pattern that if found would falsify your view that they are biased? -Bpesta22 (talk) 15:25, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- Most of the people involved in this article have agreed that the source we should use as the overall basis for its perspective is Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns. This is the official statement on Race and intelligence from the American Psychological Association, and we’ve agreed that it’s the most neutral and mainstream explanation available of the current state of research about this topic. I’ll quote the paragraph of this statement that summarizes the APA’s conclusions about the social effects of what IQ tests measure:
- No, correlations don't say anything about causality. But my point is that this correlation does not mean that IQ-tests are unbiased. Lova Falk talk 11:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- This article is probably about to enter arbitration, so most of the people who are normally involved in it aren't currently as active as they normally are. Perhaps coincidentally, there are a lot of questionable changes that have been being made to the article lately, with little or no discussion about them about the talk page. I'm not sure what ought to be done about this, since most of the regulars here are under a 1-revert-per day restriction in preparation for the arbitration case, but it would be nice if more or the regulars could pay attention to what's going on here and see if they can come up with any ideas about how to handle this. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- In summary, intelligence test scores predict a wide range of social outcomes with varying degrees of success. Correlations are highest for school achievement, where they account for about a quarter of the variance. They are somewhat lower for job performance, and very low for negatively valued outcomes such as criminality. In general, intelligence tests measure only some of the many personal characteristics that are relevant to life in contemporary America. Those characteristics are never the only influence on outcomes, though in the case of school performance they may well be the strongest.
- Notice their word choice: they refer to the characteristics measured by IQ tests “accounting for” school performance and “influencing” social outcomes. That’s saying more than just that the two are correlated; it’s describing as causal link between one and the other. Regardless of whether any of us agree that it’s reasonable to assume this causal link exists, if this is what the source material says (which it is) then our job is to just report what it says, rather than trying to second-guess it. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, what goes in the article must be restricted to what reliable sources say. I'm a newcomer to commenting on the article. While you say that "Most of the people involved in this article have agreed" that the APA's view is the best, I have reservations about the true independence of such a body. It's psychologists who gain income from creating IQ tests. While I am sure that most APA members are very professional people, at least some of them must have a financial interest in maintaining IQ testing as a popular assessment tool. Hardly the basis for an independent view. Hence, I question the APA being defined as a reliable source for this subject matter. HiLo48 (talk) 13:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Notice taken and thank you for the explanation! And they actually also make my point:"It is often argued that the lower mean scores of African Americans reflect a bias in the intelligence tests themselves. This argument is right in one sense of "bias" but wrong in another. [...] African Americans are subject to outcome bias not only with respect to tests but along many dimensions of American life. They have the short end of nearly every stick: average income, representation in high-level occupations, health and health care, death rate, confrontations with the legal system, and so on. With this situation in mind, some critics regard the test score differential as just another example of a pervasive outcome bias that characterizes our society as a whole (Jackson, 1975; Mercer, 1984). Although there is a sense in which they are right, this critique ignores the particular social purpose that tests are designed to serve. From an educational point of view, the chief function of mental tests is as predictors..." So, because the article says about bias that the argument is right in one sense but wrong in another, I still think that we should remove the statement that IQ tests are unbiased. Lova Falk talk 13:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- Captain Occam, what do you think about quoting the paragraph you have just mentioned here in the article itself? That might go a long way toward allaying some reader concerns about what is being said about IQ tests in the article text. WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 17:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- WeijiBaikeBianji: I’m intending to add a section to the article that quotes this paragraph sometime shortly. I and several other editors have been discussing this revision to the article for more than a month; I just want to wait for the article to get a little more stable before I add it. (Right now there seems to be some minor edit-warring going on over recent changes.)
- Lova Falk: it’s important to make sure you understand in what sense the APA is saying that IQ tests have a bias against African-Americans. The only way in which the APA agrees that “bias” exists in this context is that blacks do less well at them on average than whites do. That can be considered “outcome bias” in a statistical sense, but it’s not how most people use the term “bias” when claiming that IQ tests are biased against blacks. In the sense that most people tend to claim this, meaning that they think IQ tests underestimate blacks’ abilities and potential achievements, the APA is saying that IQ tests are not biased against them. The part of that paragraph after the part that you’ve quoted points this out.
- Two other sources which discuss this are Arthur Jensen’s 1980 book Bias in Mental Testing (which, despite its title, presents evidence that no such bias exists) and the 1982 report from the National Academy of Sciences Ability Testing: Uses, Consequences, and Controversies, Part I, which agreed with most of Jensen’s conclusion about this. The second one might especially be of interest to HiLo48, because unlike Arthur Jensen and the APA, the National Academy of Sciences does not profit from designing IQ tests, so there isn’t the same danger of bias from them that you think there is the APA’s case.
- I don’t think the fact that “outcome bias” in IQ tests can be said to exist in a statistical sense is worth mentioning in the article. The article obviously already mentions that the average IQ of blacks is lower than that of whites, and mentioning that the term “predictive bias” can be used for this difference is just going to be confusing to anyone who isn’t familiar with statistical terms. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- Captain, that's not quite correct: while the APA report does state the absence of any simple bias, it does not rule out the possibility of some sort of complex bias (although it doesn't raise the question specifically). If you need help locating the exact sentence within the report which says that, just let me know and I'll find it for you.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Some of the recent edits here are not making best use of the sources.
I see there have been edits back and forth here this morning on the issue of heritability estimates for IQ in the lead paragraph. In a moment, I will post a new edit, based on the following principles: (1) the same researcher's more recent views on a subject should be given more weight than that researcher's views from two decades ago, and (2) a researcher who writes a mainstream point-by-point refutation of a cited article ought to be mentioned in close proximity to that same article. This is a disputed issue, no doubt about that, but the lead paragraph ought generally to reflect the most recent point of view of authors cited in it, and moreover should be NPOV with regard to citing both points and counterpoints on issues for which there is major "clash" in the literature. WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I will be sharing references with all the editors to help improve this article.
Last year I began a major revision of a working paper project (begun in 2006, based on shorter research notes I began compiling as early as 1993) largely on the topic of IQ testing and theories of human intelligence, topics which relate this Wikipedia article's topic of race and intelligence. As the talk page templates note, "Race and intelligence was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time." Currently the article here is listed as a B-class, mid-importance article for WikiProject Psychology, so it's good to see so many editors active here. As a courtesy to the editors who have long been here, I will note that I will soon post citations (Wikiformatted by template codes) for the dozens of books and articles I have at hand for my non-Wikipedia project (a literature review for popular audiences interested in the primary source literature on IQ testing) to a subpage of my user page. I will add more references to verify the statements that have already long stood here in this article, without favor to one point of view or another. (I hope to add specific page numbers to both the references I add and the existing references that I am able to look up here. I also hope to clean up what appear to be some duplicate reference names that now appear in the notes for this Race and Intelligence article.) At some length, I expect to expand sections with additional facts, perhaps add a few subsections, and from time to time do substantive edits under the NPOV principle, as the sources report various points of view. Thanks to all of you who have already worked on this very detailed article. I am lucky to have access to a very comprehensive academic library at which I have circulating privileges, so I am delighted to add some V and NPOV to various Wikipedia projects. WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Hispanics?
Can someone answer me a question? If Hispanics can come in all races, why are they always considered for racial studies in the United States? It makes no sense. They don't do this silly "Hispanic/Latino" thing in any other part of the world. Finding an average can be easy, for example: I could take the scores of non Hispanic whites and non-Hispanic blacks and collectively call them "Anglos" and find the average of the two and say that "Anglos" scored such and such number. So why are Hispanics included, why aren't they just divided into white, black, Native, mixed race, etc?--Fernirm (talk) 03:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi there
I have no vested interest, history with, or emotional concern about this article. (Full disclosure: I'm a smart white guy with a multiracial friends and family network.) I spotted that this page is having a significant conflict, and I will try to interject some outside somewhat-detached perspective and increase NPOV. WavePart (talk) 05:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- Even though your edits are well-sourced and I trust that they've been made in good faith, I still have some problems with them. For one thing, I think the existence of international IQ differences ought to be mentioned in the lead section. Stereotype is also only one of several possible contributors to the racial IQ gap, and I think for us to mention it specifically in the lead section (without mentioning any other possible contributors) is undue weight.
- I'm going to edit the lead section in order to fix some of these problems. Since the version of the lead that existed on June 4th was the last version that was clearly supported by consensus, I think anyone who would like to implement large changes to this section should discuss these changes here, and obtain consensus for them before reinserting them. (That is, the "D" in WP:BRD.) --Captain Occam (talk) 09:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Significance and policy relevance: finally added
After more than a month of discussion ( here, here, here, and in the mediation archives), I think we’ve finally come to enough agreement about what this section should contain that it’s ready to be added to the article. In addition to the changes that I and others have already made this section in response to the feedback It’s received in those threads, I’ve also followed these more recent suggestions I’ve received about it:
- Per Aprock: the article now summarizes and links to the relevant parts about other articles on similar topics; namely Intelligence and public policy and Intelligence_quotient#Positive_correlations_with_IQ. I’ve also added two more secondary sources to this section, Jensen 1998 and Nisbett 2009, in response to your complaint that this section relies too heavily on primary sources.
- Per Victor Chmara: the section no longer discusses the book World on Fire, and IQ and the Wealth of Nations is credited to both of its authors rather than just to Lynn. I’ve also added a more recent source discussing Jensen’s views about education.
- Per Slrubenstein: I’ve gotten rid of the “between nations” section, and added the information about correlations with national IQs to the “IQ differences outside the USA” section instead.
Thanks to everyone who’s made suggestions about this section. As a result of all of your advice, I think this section is a lot better-written and more neutral than the version of it that was in January’s version of the article. I’m sure it still isn’t perfect, but I would hope that any additional changes to it can be made by editing it within the article, rather than doing a wholesale revert. The article’s under 1RR right now anyway, so trying to edit war over this section probably isn’t a good idea. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)