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*#{{Cite web|last=نور|first=مكتبة|title=تحميل كتاب تحفة المشتاق لنسب السيد إسحاق لعبدالرحمن دبة pdf|url=https://www.noor-book.com/كتاب-تحفه-المشتاق-لنسب-السيد-اسحاق-لعبدالرحمن-دبه-pdf|access-date=2021-08-08|website=www.noor-book.com|language=ar}} |
*#{{Cite web|last=نور|first=مكتبة|title=تحميل كتاب تحفة المشتاق لنسب السيد إسحاق لعبدالرحمن دبة pdf|url=https://www.noor-book.com/كتاب-تحفه-المشتاق-لنسب-السيد-اسحاق-لعبدالرحمن-دبه-pdf|access-date=2021-08-08|website=www.noor-book.com|language=ar}} |
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*#{{Citation|title=TARIIKHDA SH ISXAAQ QAYBTA 1AAD Full Barnaamij|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptN45OgaP74|language=en|access-date=2021-03-24}} |
*#{{Citation|title=TARIIKHDA SH ISXAAQ QAYBTA 1AAD Full Barnaamij|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptN45OgaP74|language=en|access-date=2021-03-24}} |
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*#{{Cite book|last=Lewis|first=I. M.|url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9fAjtruUXjEC&pg=PA108&dq=tol+je'lo&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP4Pqz3cXwAhVjBmMBHRGtC0IQ6AEwBXoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=tol%20je'lo&f=false|title=Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society|date=1994|publisher=The Red Sea Press|isbn=978-0-932415-93-6|language=en}} |
*#{{Cite book|last=Lewis|first=I. M.|url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9fAjtruUXjEC&pg=PA108&dq=tol+je'lo&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP4Pqz3cXwAhVjBmMBHRGtC0IQ6AEwBXoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=tol%20je'lo&f=false|title=Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society|date=1994|publisher=The Red Sea Press|isbn=978-0-932415-93-6|language=en|ref=no}} |
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:::1. looks like a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source, which should not be used for evaluative statement. If it is a secondary source, can you clarify who its author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to [[WP:NORN]] if you want. |
:::1. looks like a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source, which should not be used for evaluative statement. If it is a secondary source, can you clarify who its author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to [[WP:NORN]] if you want. |
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:::2. Googling عبد الرحمن شيخ محمود زيلعي [https://www.google.com/search?q=+%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE+%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF+%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%8A&client=ubuntu&hs=1re&channel=fs&ei=BTolYcznIsyCi-gPgLyvyAo&oq=+%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE+%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF+%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%8A&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANKBAhBGAFQyLgBWP7rAmDSkANoAnAAeACAAagBiAGGCJIBBDExLjGYAQCgAQGgAQLAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiM_t3EpMryAhVMwQIHHQDeC6kQ4dUDCA4&uact=5] yields only a page that says he writes on history, and links to his book. Can you clarify who this author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to [[WP:RSN]] if you want. |
:::2. Googling عبد الرحمن شيخ محمود زيلعي [https://www.google.com/search?q=+%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE+%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF+%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%8A&client=ubuntu&hs=1re&channel=fs&ei=BTolYcznIsyCi-gPgLyvyAo&oq=+%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE+%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF+%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%8A&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANKBAhBGAFQyLgBWP7rAmDSkANoAnAAeACAAagBiAGGCJIBBDExLjGYAQCgAQGgAQLAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiM_t3EpMryAhVMwQIHHQDeC6kQ4dUDCA4&uact=5] yields only a page that says he writes on history, and links to his book. Can you clarify who this author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to [[WP:RSN]] if you want. |
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:Many thanks, |
:Many thanks, |
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[[User:Dabaqabad|Dabaqabad]] ([[User talk:Dabaqabad|talk]]) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
[[User:Dabaqabad|Dabaqabad]] ([[User talk:Dabaqabad|talk]]) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Wow Dabaqabad, that's a very thorough and interesting explanation! {{p|awesome}} Thanks for that. {{p|teeth}} You're clearly somewhat of an expert on this topic, and it's always good to see that someone takes an interest in pitifully neglected subjects such as this. However, as well-acquainted as you are with the subject, I think that your approach to sources at this moment is fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia, and would need to change for you to contribute here in accordance with policy. |
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I will begin by quoting #5 above, {{harvnb|Lewis|1994|pp=103–104}} (who is [[Ioan Lewis|renowned internationally as the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture]]): |
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<blockquote>{{tq|Similar traditions are conserved by the Isaaq in regard to their ancestor Sheikh Isaaq. His descendants trace their ancestor's pedigree to 'Ali, the son of Abuu Taalib, who married the Prophets's daughter Faatima. Stories similar to those which attach to Sheikh Daarood describe Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia at the ancient Somali port of Zeila in the northwest of the ex-Protectorate and near the border with Djibouti. [...] Again, as with Sheikh Daarood, there are a number of published hagiologies in Arabic which describe not only the Sheikhs's movements and life and works in Somaliland but also his peregrinations in Arabia before his arrival among the Somali. These works contain a mass of unlikely circumstantial detail and repeatedly insist on the validity of Sheikh Isaaq's pedigree, a feature which itself suggests that the genealogy is suspect. As in the case of Sheikh Daarood, the names in the Arabian sections of the genealogy are also unconvincing since they represent those current at the time of the Prophet rather than, as one would expect if the genealogies were historically genuine, medieval local Arab names. And although in this case there is little divergence between the dates recorded in the hagiologies and those conserved in oral tradition, there are again strong grounds for doubting the authenticity of the genealogical claims made. Thus it seems that the traditions surrounding the origins and advent from Arabia of Sheikh Daarood and Isaaq have the character of myths rather than of history even although there is every reason to believe that one aspect of Somaliland's long contact with Arabia has been the settlement over the centuries of parties of Arab immigrants. In this this respect the Daarood and Isaaq legends represent historical fact. But quite apart from this, their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture.}}</blockquote> |
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Ref: {{cite book|last1=Lewis|first1=Ioan M.|author1-link=Ioan Lewis|date=1994|title=Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society|location=Lawrencewill, NJ|publisher=The Red Sea Press|isbn=0-932415-93-8|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9fAjtruUXjEC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false}} |
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This sums it all up, really. The late 19th-century/early 20th-century works by Sharīf Mubayd, Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Ghurbānī, Sharīf Aydurus, Aḥmad ʿAbd Allah Rīrāsh al-Ṣūmālī, etc. were either publishing the [[Hagiography|hagiologies]] Lewis 1994 speaks about or directly drawing upon them to write uncritical histories. As Lewis 1994 notes, the stories about Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia {{tq|have the character of myths rather than of history}}. Yet our article currently presents these stories as historical fact, which is of course due to the [[historiographically]] uncritical nature of its sources. This is quite obviously also true for Zaylaʻī 2018 (#2), the title of whose book ''Somalia's Arabness and its Islamic Civilization'' clearly echoes Lewis 1994's words {{tq|their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture}}. |
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There are two relevant Wikipedia policies here, the [[WP:UNDUE|WP:UNDUE WEIGHT]] part of [[WP:NPOV]] and the [[WP:INDEPENDENT]] part of [[WP:RS]]. From the first perspective, the fact that sources are either directly contradicted or completely ignored by the world's foremost expert on the topic (and by other well-respected academic scholars) makes them wholly WP:UNDUE to cite. They are written from a very specific POV and agenda (validating the Arabic & Islamic basis of Somali culture) which is directly exposed and rejected by expert scholars in the field. The second problem is independence. All of these writers (and that also includes #3 Dubbe Ali Yare and #4 Maxamed Cabdi Daud) have very strong vested interests in their subject matter, and are writing specifically to promote a certain cultural and political point of view rather than to treat a subject in a dispassionate and academic way. That means that from Wikipedia's point of view, they are not reliable. |
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As a last point, I should also say that for every individual author which you've discussed above, my criticism of them lacking WP:WEIGHT and WP:INDEPENDENCE may be incorrect. The way for you to show that would be to point us to established academic scholarly sources (such as [[Ioan Lewis]], but of course other well-respected scholars would qualify too) that ''cite'' them approvingly (thus establishing that they have due weight), or to show us in some other way that they do in fact have ''academic credentials'' (which would establish their independence). However, please do note that having academic credentials neither means that university libraries hold their books, nor that they are covered in magazines or websites like Wikipedia, nor even that they have a PhD or a position at some university, but rather that they are widely cited by respected scholars, or that they have ''published'' in highly reputable [[scholarly journal]]s and/or with [[University press|university presses]] or other well-respected [[academic publisher]]s. |
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In the mean time, I suggest that we base the article on Ioan Lewis' works. That would reduce them to a stub, but I suspect that from the perspective of established Wikipedia policies this subject is not a candidate for much more than a stub. {{p|holidays}} <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ [[User:Apaugasma|<span style="color:#6a0dad">Apaugasma</span>]] ([[User talk:Apaugasma|<span style="color:#000">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Apaugasma|☉]])</span> 10:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:06, 1 September 2021
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Removals of sections based on unreliable and/or primary sources
Hello Dabaqabad! You reverted [1] five edits by me, with the edit summary Unexplained removal; sources are reliable. I tried my best to explain in my edit summaries, but of course more space may be needed for a proper explanation. So here goes:
- My edit here removed the statement that
Sheikh Ishaaq belonged to the Banu Hashim subclan of the Quraysh and was a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Prophet Mohammed's son in-law and Fatimah, his daughter
, which is based on the following source: MENAFN. "Somaliland: History of Sheikh Isaaq Bin Ahmed Bin Muhammad (AL-HASHIMI)". menafn.com. Retrieved 2021-03-24. This is a newspaper article which cites no sources, and is not reliable in this context. If you insist it is reliable, we can take it to WP:RSN. - My edit here removed a paragraph based on the following sources:
- يحيى, بن نصر الله الهرري. مناقب الشيخ أبادر- متحف الشريف عبد الله في هرر.
- Zaylaʻī, ʻAbd al-Raḥmān Shaykh Maḥmūd; زيلعي، عبد الرحمن شيخ محمود. (2018). al-Ṣūmāl ʻurūbatuhā wa-ḥaḍāratuhā al-Islāmīyah = Somalia's Arabism and Islamic civilization (al-Ṭabʻah al-ūlá ed.). Dubayy. ISBN 978-9948-39-903-2. OCLC 1100055464.
{{cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) - نور, مكتبة. "تحميل كتاب تحفة المشتاق لنسب السيد إسحاق لعبدالرحمن دبة pdf". www.noor-book.com (in Arabic). Retrieved 2021-08-08.
- TARIIKHDA SH ISXAAQ QAYBTA 1AAD Full Barnaamij, retrieved 2021-03-24
- Lewis, I. M. (1994). Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society. The Red Sea Press. ISBN 978-0-932415-93-6.
- 1. looks like a WP:PRIMARY source, which should not be used for evaluative statement. If it is a secondary source, can you clarify who its author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to WP:NORN if you want.
- 2. Googling عبد الرحمن شيخ محمود زيلعي [2] yields only a page that says he writes on history, and links to his book. Can you clarify who this author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to WP:RSN if you want.
- 3. looks like a primary source, which should not be used for evaluative statement. If it is a secondary source, can you clarify who its author is and what his academic credentials are? We can take it to WP:NORN if you want.
- 4. is a Youtube video, which are generally not reliable (see WP:RSPYT). We can take it to WP:RSN if you want.
- 5. is a reliable source, but there is no page number and searching through it does not verify the statement for which it is used here.
- My edit here removed a section based on sources 2. and 3. above, and on الغرباني, محمد بن أحمد. صورة لمخطوطة الغرباني التي تتحدث عن سيرة وحياة الشريف إسحاق بن أحمد الرضوي. pp. 95–96., which is an incomplete reference and which looks like a primary source (a photographed manuscript? clarification would be needed).
- My edit here removed a section based on the last named source (the photographed manuscript?). It's hardly credible that this manuscript would contain the translation? Where does the translation come from?
- My edit here just formatted a ref and should not have been reverted.
Please discuss these sources one by one. As suggested, we can also go to WP:RSN and/or WP:NORN for specific sources. An alternative option is to ask for a third opinion. Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hello @Apaugasma:,
- 1. I made a typo with that source my apologies I meant to cite Sharif Mubayd’s book (I will explain in detail).
- 2. Abdulrahman Sheikh Mohamoud Zayla'i is a Somali historian and writer. He has written dozens of articles in Somali and Arab newspapers and websites, participated in local and international conferences and meetings, and his books are in international libraries such as Yale University Library, Harvard University, as well as public libraries in Helsinki and London. His most notable works include that book I referenced as well as an article on China-Somalia relations [3], as well as being the author of مانديق فى القاهرة (Maandeeq in Cairo), and حياة وذكريات احمد حسن عوكى (Life and Memories of Ahmed Hassan Awke). His works have also been featured on Arabic Magazine ([4]) while he is also on Arabic Wikipedia ([5]).
- 3. It is not a primary source rather a secondary source written by Abdulrahman Ali Mohamed - Dube was his nickname and Dube Ali Yare was his moniker see . He was a member of the Somali National League and active in British Somaliland politics. Travelled to London with two prominent sultans of the Isaaq clan and Michael Mariano (politician) to petition the British government to return the Haud region from Ethiopian jurisdiction. See the source below, there is also a photo of him with the delegation members on google which I can provide if you’d like.[6]
- 4. Is a video series from ARABSIYO News, the author of a recent Somali biography of Sheikh Ishaaq - (Dheemankii Lagu Maamuusay Maydh: Sheekh Isxaaq Ibnu Axmed). Maxamed Cabdi Daud also has a video series that is viewable on YouTube on the same topic. That would be better suited or just his book itself as a source.
- 5. Page 103 holds that the widely held notion amongst Isaaqs that Sheikh Isaaq is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib although I.M Lewis thinks this is just tradition.
- The translation is from me (which is allowed, see WP:TRANSCRIPTION and WP:RSUE). The manuscript is from Mohamed ibn Ahmad Al Ghurbani who was a non-Somali sheikh of Sayyid lineage writing this text in Yemen in the early 20th century. It also has been turned into a print version. Ghurbani based his book on a manuscript of Sheikh Mohamed Hassan who accompanied Isaaq ibn Ahmed in Maydh. Returning to Dube his book regarding Isaaq is based on Ghurbani’s earlier summary. I hope that clears things up regarding Dube and Ghurbani. The name of the Ghurbani transduction and Mohamed’s text is العسجد المنظوم في التاريخ والعلوم. Link: [7]
- Regarding other Somali texts that mention the Arab origins of Isaaq ibn Ahmed. The Sharif Mubayd of Barawa who claimed Alawi descent, wrote a 20th century text containing a geneaology of Isaaq and then divulged mostly into Sufi praises of him. He is mentioned in a poem of another Sheikh in Renewers of the Holy Age, page 97. ثمرة المشتاق في مناقب الشيخ إسحاق للشريف مبيد أبي بكر النضيري البراوي. Link: [8]
- Another 20th century text is from Sharif Aydurus who was the mayor of Mogadishu. He mentions Isaaq as an Arab migrant who first arrived in Zeyla and is buried in Maydh. ٢٣٤ بغية الآمال في تاريخ الصومال. Link: [9]. Again another 20th century text that mentions Isaaq as an Arab migrant is from Sheikh Ahmed Abdullahi. His book كشف السدول عن تاريخ الصومال ، وممالكهم السبعة - تأليف / الشيخ أحمد عبدالله ريراش الصومالي. Here is a link regarding who this author is.[10]
- There is explicit reference to Alawi origin of Isaaq ibn Ahmed in
مشكلة الحدود الصومالية - الإثيوبية ودور القوى الدولية فيها ٦٧..١٣٩٨هـ/٤٨..١٩٨٧م written by سليمان حاج عبدالله فارح, published by Saudi Arabia’s Umm Al Qura university, page ٢, الفصل التمهيدي. Link: [[11]]
- I hope that resolved this misunderstanding
- Many thanks,
Dabaqabad (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Wow Dabaqabad, that's a very thorough and interesting explanation! Thanks for that. You're clearly somewhat of an expert on this topic, and it's always good to see that someone takes an interest in pitifully neglected subjects such as this. However, as well-acquainted as you are with the subject, I think that your approach to sources at this moment is fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia, and would need to change for you to contribute here in accordance with policy.
I will begin by quoting #5 above, Lewis 1994, pp. 103–104 (who is renowned internationally as the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture):
Similar traditions are conserved by the Isaaq in regard to their ancestor Sheikh Isaaq. His descendants trace their ancestor's pedigree to 'Ali, the son of Abuu Taalib, who married the Prophets's daughter Faatima. Stories similar to those which attach to Sheikh Daarood describe Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia at the ancient Somali port of Zeila in the northwest of the ex-Protectorate and near the border with Djibouti. [...] Again, as with Sheikh Daarood, there are a number of published hagiologies in Arabic which describe not only the Sheikhs's movements and life and works in Somaliland but also his peregrinations in Arabia before his arrival among the Somali. These works contain a mass of unlikely circumstantial detail and repeatedly insist on the validity of Sheikh Isaaq's pedigree, a feature which itself suggests that the genealogy is suspect. As in the case of Sheikh Daarood, the names in the Arabian sections of the genealogy are also unconvincing since they represent those current at the time of the Prophet rather than, as one would expect if the genealogies were historically genuine, medieval local Arab names. And although in this case there is little divergence between the dates recorded in the hagiologies and those conserved in oral tradition, there are again strong grounds for doubting the authenticity of the genealogical claims made. Thus it seems that the traditions surrounding the origins and advent from Arabia of Sheikh Daarood and Isaaq have the character of myths rather than of history even although there is every reason to believe that one aspect of Somaliland's long contact with Arabia has been the settlement over the centuries of parties of Arab immigrants. In this this respect the Daarood and Isaaq legends represent historical fact. But quite apart from this, their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture.
Ref: Lewis, Ioan M. (1994). Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society. Lawrencewill, NJ: The Red Sea Press. ISBN 0-932415-93-8.
This sums it all up, really. The late 19th-century/early 20th-century works by Sharīf Mubayd, Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Ghurbānī, Sharīf Aydurus, Aḥmad ʿAbd Allah Rīrāsh al-Ṣūmālī, etc. were either publishing the hagiologies Lewis 1994 speaks about or directly drawing upon them to write uncritical histories. As Lewis 1994 notes, the stories about Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia have the character of myths rather than of history
. Yet our article currently presents these stories as historical fact, which is of course due to the historiographically uncritical nature of its sources. This is quite obviously also true for Zaylaʻī 2018 (#2), the title of whose book Somalia's Arabness and its Islamic Civilization clearly echoes Lewis 1994's words their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture
.
There are two relevant Wikipedia policies here, the WP:UNDUE WEIGHT part of WP:NPOV and the WP:INDEPENDENT part of WP:RS. From the first perspective, the fact that sources are either directly contradicted or completely ignored by the world's foremost expert on the topic (and by other well-respected academic scholars) makes them wholly WP:UNDUE to cite. They are written from a very specific POV and agenda (validating the Arabic & Islamic basis of Somali culture) which is directly exposed and rejected by expert scholars in the field. The second problem is independence. All of these writers (and that also includes #3 Dubbe Ali Yare and #4 Maxamed Cabdi Daud) have very strong vested interests in their subject matter, and are writing specifically to promote a certain cultural and political point of view rather than to treat a subject in a dispassionate and academic way. That means that from Wikipedia's point of view, they are not reliable.
As a last point, I should also say that for every individual author which you've discussed above, my criticism of them lacking WP:WEIGHT and WP:INDEPENDENCE may be incorrect. The way for you to show that would be to point us to established academic scholarly sources (such as Ioan Lewis, but of course other well-respected scholars would qualify too) that cite them approvingly (thus establishing that they have due weight), or to show us in some other way that they do in fact have academic credentials (which would establish their independence). However, please do note that having academic credentials neither means that university libraries hold their books, nor that they are covered in magazines or websites like Wikipedia, nor even that they have a PhD or a position at some university, but rather that they are widely cited by respected scholars, or that they have published in highly reputable scholarly journals and/or with university presses or other well-respected academic publishers.
In the mean time, I suggest that we base the article on Ioan Lewis' works. That would reduce them to a stub, but I suspect that from the perspective of established Wikipedia policies this subject is not a candidate for much more than a stub. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)