Forced archival. All comments are present, just compressed. |
short and sweet. |
||
Line 243: | Line 243: | ||
:::Of course I didn't say take Jimmy Wales out of the article, Quack. Jimmy is still a part of Wikipedia, and was widely interviewed and quoted about this controversy. None of those points can be said about Sanger. Taking references to Wales out of the article would leave a hole the size of a Mack truck. Taking Sanger out would leave a hole the size of a skateboard. --[[User:Risker|Risker]] 06:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
:::Of course I didn't say take Jimmy Wales out of the article, Quack. Jimmy is still a part of Wikipedia, and was widely interviewed and quoted about this controversy. None of those points can be said about Sanger. Taking references to Wales out of the article would leave a hole the size of a Mack truck. Taking Sanger out would leave a hole the size of a skateboard. --[[User:Risker|Risker]] 06:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
::::Second note to Risker. This discussion here is about adding an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=119402842&oldid=119401541 "a"] to Jimmy Wales. I do not follow your logic. In fact you previously [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=114872942 agreed] to this. I have provided many references, statements, and arguements which most or if not all of you have intentionally ignored. :) - <b><font color="669966">[[User:QuackGuru|Mr.Guru]]</font></b> (<font size="1"><sup>[[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/QuackGuru|contribs]]</sub></font>) 06:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
::::Second note to Risker. This discussion here is about adding an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=119402842&oldid=119401541 "a"] to Jimmy Wales. I do not follow your logic. In fact you previously [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=114872942 agreed] to this. I have provided many references, statements, and arguements which most or if not all of you have intentionally ignored. :) - <b><font color="669966">[[User:QuackGuru|Mr.Guru]]</font></b> (<font size="1"><sup>[[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/QuackGuru|contribs]]</sub></font>) 06:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
⚫ | :::::I added back in the comments that were deleted. This is an ongoing discussion to improve this article. :) - <b><font color="669966">[[User:QuackGuru|Mr.Guru]]</font></b> (<font size="1"><sup>[[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/QuackGuru|contribs]]</sub></font>) 06:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
⚫ | :::::First off, Quack - you only needed to click on the word "show" in the above box for this all to come to view again. Secondly, my position has not changed, Quack. I can live with "a" in and I can live with "a" out. What is not helpful is the continued edit war about this. There are at least as many articles referring to Wales as [no "a"] founder of Wikipedia as there are of him being referred to in any other way. The "a" is not there now. If you would prefer, we can get rid of the Sanger reference and drop any comment about Wales' "founding" role in Wikipedia. The article is not deficient or factually incorrect with the absence of the "a". And most importantly, it is not an article about either Jimmy Wales or Larry Sanger. The issue you are raising here belongs in either one or both of those articles. This is bordering on disruption again, Quack. Please stop. <small> (Apologies to tjstrf for not keeping quiet)</small> --[[User:Risker|Risker]] 06:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
⚫ | :::::*I concur-- this isn't the forum for arguing who is or isn't the founder of Wikipedia. That Quack refuses to drop the matter, repeatedly reverting and re-inserting his own preferred language, seems to indicate that he is a [[WP:TEND|tendentious editor]], whose purpose is to promote a particular view. If he continues on this course, I would recommend blocking for trying the community's patience. |
||
|- |
|- |
||
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived debate of a really tedious subject that had nothing to do with this page. Nothing to see here, move along. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived debate of a really tedious subject that had nothing to do with this page. Nothing to see here, move along. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
||
|} |
|} |
||
== continuation of above topic == |
|||
⚫ | :::::I added back in the comments that were deleted. This is an ongoing discussion to improve this article. :) - <b><font color="669966">[[User:QuackGuru|Mr.Guru]]</font></b> (<font size="1"><sup>[[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/QuackGuru|contribs]]</sub></font>) 06:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
⚫ | :::::First off, Quack - you only needed to click on the word "show" in the above box for this all to come to view again. Secondly, my position has not changed, Quack. I can live with "a" in and I can live with "a" out. What is not helpful is the continued edit war about this. There are at least as many articles referring to Wales as [no "a"] founder of Wikipedia as there are of him being referred to in any other way. The "a" is not there now. If you would prefer, we can get rid of the Sanger reference and drop any comment about Wales' "founding" role in Wikipedia. The article is not deficient or factually incorrect with the absence of the "a". And most importantly, it is not an article about either Jimmy Wales or Larry Sanger. The issue you are raising here belongs in either one or both of those articles. This is bordering on disruption again, Quack. Please stop. <small> (Apologies to tjstrf for not keeping quiet)</small> --[[User:Risker|Risker]] 06:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
||
⚫ | :::::*I concur-- this isn't the forum for arguing who is or isn't the founder of Wikipedia. That Quack refuses to drop the matter, repeatedly reverting and re-inserting his own preferred language, seems to indicate that he is a [[WP:TEND|tendentious editor]], whose purpose is to promote a particular view. If he continues on this course, I would recommend blocking for trying the community's patience. |
||
I have left a message to your account Quack. I will make this short and sweet. These posts are disruptive and are trying the community's patience, further disruption will cause you to be blocked. --[[User:WikiLeon|<font color="#cc0000">w</font><font color="#00cc00"><sup>L</sup></font>]]<sup><[[User talk:WikiLeon|speak]]·[[Special:Contributions/WikiLeon|check]]></sup> 06:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:51, 1 April 2007
|
||||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Restarted peer review
I restarted the peer review and added it to the Community Portal. People have made comments here, which you may wish to read. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've noticed some basic formatting issues that need correcting, but beyond that, can anyone consider any compelling reason why we should not nominate for FA? The edit wars have died down, every sentence is referenced, and there is little press coverage any more we need to keep an eye out for. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe start with GA? - Denny 22:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- ...Why? If it's good enough for GA, we may as well put the little effort in to reach FA, no? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the peer review is favourable, then I agree with trying for FA. If it fails FA we can always fall back on GA. --tjstrf talk 22:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Good points, nevermind me. :) - Denny 22:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Um ... Essjay controversy is not going to become a mainpage featured article, for obvious reasons that I truly hope I don't need to adumbrate here. It was considered inappropriate a couple of weeks ago even as a "Did You Know" item. Newyorkbrad 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Can it have FA status bestowed by the community while not being on the front page (hypothetically)? - Denny 22:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Um ... Essjay controversy is not going to become a mainpage featured article, for obvious reasons that I truly hope I don't need to adumbrate here. It was considered inappropriate a couple of weeks ago even as a "Did You Know" item. Newyorkbrad 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Good points, nevermind me. :) - Denny 22:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the peer review is favourable, then I agree with trying for FA. If it fails FA we can always fall back on GA. --tjstrf talk 22:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- ...Why? If it's good enough for GA, we may as well put the little effort in to reach FA, no? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe start with GA? - Denny 22:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, yeah, but there's no reason it can;t be featured, is there? I like to think that the lack of feedback on the peer review indicates there's not a lot to say. :) Shall we get someone from the League in to copyedit, I'll fix the formatting I referred to, and then go for it? I think everyone here has done a fantastic amount of work on it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Articles can be Featured, but never be on the main page. Prodego talk 22:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Raul says he keeps a list of FAs that he will never put on the front page, which seems justified. It would be incredibly narcissistic to put up Wikipedia for example, when it eventually passes again. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Even though it will never make front-page this will still be a rather momentous occasion seeing as it has not only been built at max-level citations from the ground up, but hammered out between a coalition of meta-editors and trolls. --tjstrf talk 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Um ... remind me again why this is a good thing? Newyorkbrad 22:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Even though it will never make front-page this will still be a rather momentous occasion seeing as it has not only been built at max-level citations from the ground up, but hammered out between a coalition of meta-editors and trolls. --tjstrf talk 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Raul says he keeps a list of FAs that he will never put on the front page, which seems justified. It would be incredibly narcissistic to put up Wikipedia for example, when it eventually passes again. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Because most FAs are written by one or two people and this article has truly demonstrated the power of crowds that Wikipedia was created for? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- I was thinking it would help discount the opinions of the WP:1FA-type people who think Wikipedia space editors aren't capable of writing good content so they just sit around and argue all day instead. --tjstrf talk 23:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The Essjay Letter Confirmation
Cbrown1023 deleted the letter on March 4, 2007, providing the following reason(s): "Essjay's Request"
- http://www.webcitation.org/5N2MZaMWP < A genuine copy of the letter
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cbrown1023/Archive_6#Deletion_of_User:Essjay.2FLetter
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANeutrality&diff=112600657&oldid=112598358
- http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2007/03/head_wikipedian.php
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=113513642
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=113511998
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=113510636
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=112282076&oldid=112281864
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Community_noticeboard&diff=112278999&oldid=112274795
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=112279901
- http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=Essjay+Letter+Wikipedia&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&vst=0&vs=en.wikipedia.org&u=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Community_noticeboard/Essjay&w=essjay+letter+wikipedia&d=GTfD7RIeOeR2&icp=1&.intl=us
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay/RFC
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Essjay/RFC#Outside_view_by_CyclePat
- http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&p=Essjay+sent+a+letter+to+a+college+professor+credentials+Wikipedia%27s+accuracy.&u=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_19&w=essjay+sent+letter+college+professor+professors+credentials+credential+wikipedia%27s+accuracy&d=VFEMfRIeOfqb&icp=1&.intl=us
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Essjay/Letter&oldid=112598051 User:Essjay/Letter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=47360865&oldid=47360559
Identity revealed
At some point, Essjay sent a letter to a real-life college professor using his invented persona's credentials,[1] vouching for Wikipedia's accuracy.[2] In the letter he wrote in part, "It is never the case that known incorrect information is allowed to remain in Wikipedia."[2]
1) References #7 in the article > ^ a b c d e Finkelstein, Seth (March 8, 2007). Read me first. Technology. The Guardian. Retrieved on 2007-03-18.
2) Reference #27 in the article > ^ a b Blacharski, Dan (March 6, 2007). Blog Insights: Wikipedia's great fraud. ITworld. Retrieved on 2007-03-18.
Foremost, I have provided evidence that the letter did exist. Further, many Wikipedians within the community have actually read the letter. Even Essjay said in his own words it was a letter. Therefore, the references are verifiable. Cordially, :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 08:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Are any of those references external to Wikipedia itself? By which I do not mean you rehosting it somewhere else either. If not, then it's not a notable occurrence. --tjstrf talk 08:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2028328,00.html
http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/nlsblog070306/
Here are the external references. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 08:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The ITworld reference quotes the Guardian reference; that really tangles things up quite a bit. I am not convinced this needs to be there, particularly the selected quote. Given the large number of published sources that reported the controversy, and the fact only two referred to this particular issue (and one of them was quoting the other), I am hard pressed to see how adding this isn't giving the "letter" undue weight. Risker 18:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The letter was sent to a real world professor, vouching for Wikipedia accuracy using the false credentials. The usage of the false credentials is a major part of what this article is about. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 18:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please respond to the "undue weight" concern, Quack. Two sources out of hundreds of published sources - one quoting the other. More sources referred to any number of other things (number of edits, which articles were edited, etc) than this "letter." Risker 18:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The letter was sent to a real world professor, vouching for Wikipedia accuracy using the false credentials. The usage of the false credentials is a major part of what this article is about. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 18:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I do understand your perspective, Doug - clearly I am having difficulty expressing my concern. The article is about the external reaction to the discovery of the false credentials. We have to go with what our external sources think are the issues of concern. The letter is a much bigger deal internal to Wikipedia than it was externally - and justifiably so. But dozens of respected reliable sources didn't feel it was important enough to even mention in passing. In particular, none of the articles in which academics are interviewed mention this letter - the exact place where one would expect to find a reference to it. Risker 18:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with one of your assertions. The article is about the controversy, not the external reaction to it. The external reaction may be what makes it notable, but the purpose of the article is to present a neutral description of the events. The letter is sourced and is centrally relevant. It deserves mention in the article. It does not deserve undue weight in the article, but it should be there. —Doug Bell talk 18:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I've again removed Quack's insertion of unsubstantiated material -- the "source" for the ITWorld blog was Seth Finklestein's own blog entry at http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/001157.html . As a blog post, this is not a citeable source. Just as much of what EssJay has claimed about himself has been admitted to be false, no published account has demonstrated that he actually wrote any such letter to anyone, college professor or not. --LeflymanTalk 03:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- I have provided documentation the letter did exist. Both references are solid and both references are already in the article. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 04:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
New screenshot of User:Essjay available
This one shows the entirety of the academic claims discussed in the article. The image is at Image:User-Essjay.png. -- Kendrick7talk 17:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- ...I think that would be workable. - Denny 17:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I concur. It is usable. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 17:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- No no no. It is from six months before the article was published, and we cannot tell how many times it was modified in between. We have no evidence that this is the user page the journalist referenced when writing the article. It also is a low quality image; nothing can be seen unless people click on the image and then know how to work through the wiki-world to actually view the image in a legible format. It is also a primary source, when we have already fully included the information from secondary sources. The image adds nothing to the article, and moves it back to being an article about Essjay rather than the controversy. Remember that the controversy we are reporting is how the world outside of Wikipedia reacted and observed things. When the controversy arose, this was not the user page on display, either. Incidentally, it is not a "new" screenshot, it was removed from the article three weeks ago for these very reasons. Risker 18:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. It is the user page of Essjay. Enough said. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 18:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I don't doubt it is a screenshot of his user page on one particular day. You have not responded to my points, Quack. There are at least four different screenshots of his user page around that I have seen; each one is different. None of them are contemporaneous to the article. That still doesn't answer any of my points, which are:
- Yes. It is the user page of Essjay. Enough said. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 18:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- No no no. It is from six months before the article was published, and we cannot tell how many times it was modified in between. We have no evidence that this is the user page the journalist referenced when writing the article. It also is a low quality image; nothing can be seen unless people click on the image and then know how to work through the wiki-world to actually view the image in a legible format. It is also a primary source, when we have already fully included the information from secondary sources. The image adds nothing to the article, and moves it back to being an article about Essjay rather than the controversy. Remember that the controversy we are reporting is how the world outside of Wikipedia reacted and observed things. When the controversy arose, this was not the user page on display, either. Incidentally, it is not a "new" screenshot, it was removed from the article three weeks ago for these very reasons. Risker 18:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I concur. It is usable. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 17:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- No evidence this was seen by the journalist
- Poor quality image that is very user-unfriendly
- Primary source, when relevant information already covered in the article from reliable secondary sources
- Changes focus of article from the controversy to Essjay personally
As soon as this article reverts back to what it was in the days following the start of the controversy - that is, an article about the actions of one specific individual - we are back at AfD and quite rightly the article is no longer viable. Quack, please stop trying to insert personal information about Essjay into this article. Risker 18:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article as currently scoped says, in the first sentence, that the controversy is about the lies he told on his User page. These are them. -- Kendrick7talk 18:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Risker's claims are ridiculous. He is just trying to keep stuff out he does not like. Remember these:
- Edit in which Essjay claims to a user that he had a PhD and students under his charge - archive at WebCite.
- Essjay's apology - archive at WebCite.
- Letter by Essjay to an academic in which he falsely claims academic credentials and accomplishments. - archive at WebCite.
- User:Essjay/History1 - archive at Google cache. Additional archive at WebCite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by C.m.jones (talk • contribs).
- I've compromised the issue in the same way that Criticism of Wikipedia handled Essjay's deleted user page. I have footnoted the Internet Archive version of the user page, to show the actual claim of the false credentials. I hate to add more footnotes to the article, but I'd like to settle this controversy. Casey Abell 13:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've also added a link to Essjay's archived Wikia user page of 1-1-07, alongside the Martyn Williams footnote about how Essjay "came clean." Otherwise, the reference might be somewhat unclear. If we keep this stuff in footnotes, I think we can compromise the controversy about including the material while still informing the reader completely. Casey Abell 13:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
this footnote was just added. Shouldn't we web citation it in case someone at Wikia inappropriately removes it? - Denny 13:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- As I said, I added the footnote to show how Essjay identified himself as Ryan Jordan. This Wikia user template been blocked from The Internet Archive but is available directly (go figure). I misspoke slightly above - Essjay's actual Wikia user page with the (supposedly) correct information on his background has been deep-sixed and protected from web crawlers. I can't find a copy of it anywhere. Casey Abell 13:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, there is a copy of it on Wikipedia Watch, but there's no way I'm going to footnote that. Casey Abell 14:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Redirect for deletion
Folks who've been editing on this article should be aware of this redirects for deletion discussion. (→Netscott) 20:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"a" Wikipedia founder
The result of the debate was: Stop arguing.
|
---|
It was already discussed at length on the talk page here. I was going with consensus. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=114862436 Here was the compromise discussed at length on the talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&curid=9875104&diff=119150768&oldid=119148917 Here is a controversial edit along with the controversial edit summary. Any suggestions. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 23:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
No, put to ANI. That is beyond hostile, sorry. - Denny 00:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC) Not to justify Ned's outburst, but I too find Quack's POV-pushing an annoyance. The correct appellative for Wales is "Wikipedia founder" -- not "a", or "one of" or "co-". This is how he is listed by the Wikimedia Foundation (which Wales also set-up) [1], and how news reports list him. This article isn't the place to argue to origination of Wikipedia.--LeflymanTalk 01:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Both of your comments are excused to have your new version of reality which does not meet the threshold for NPOVing on Wikipedia. Here are some editors who agreed to "a" founder. BTY, it is about verifiable and not your opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=114862436 The compromised version by Mr. Colt. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=114872942 Risker agreed to this too (oh my). http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=114875941 "I say leave out the word founder altogether but I'm ok with Denny's way too." Note: Some editors who agreed to the compromise are now having a new perception (changing of opinion) of reality (revisionism). Any suggestions -- to the maintainance of a neutral point of view (upholding the standard for a good quality article.:) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 05:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
|
The above is an archived debate of a really tedious subject that had nothing to do with this page. Nothing to see here, move along. Please do not modify it. |
continuation of above topic
- I added back in the comments that were deleted. This is an ongoing discussion to improve this article. :) - Mr.Guru (talk/contribs) 06:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- First off, Quack - you only needed to click on the word "show" in the above box for this all to come to view again. Secondly, my position has not changed, Quack. I can live with "a" in and I can live with "a" out. What is not helpful is the continued edit war about this. There are at least as many articles referring to Wales as [no "a"] founder of Wikipedia as there are of him being referred to in any other way. The "a" is not there now. If you would prefer, we can get rid of the Sanger reference and drop any comment about Wales' "founding" role in Wikipedia. The article is not deficient or factually incorrect with the absence of the "a". And most importantly, it is not an article about either Jimmy Wales or Larry Sanger. The issue you are raising here belongs in either one or both of those articles. This is bordering on disruption again, Quack. Please stop. (Apologies to tjstrf for not keeping quiet) --Risker 06:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- I concur-- this isn't the forum for arguing who is or isn't the founder of Wikipedia. That Quack refuses to drop the matter, repeatedly reverting and re-inserting his own preferred language, seems to indicate that he is a tendentious editor, whose purpose is to promote a particular view. If he continues on this course, I would recommend blocking for trying the community's patience.
I have left a message to your account Quack. I will make this short and sweet. These posts are disruptive and are trying the community's patience, further disruption will cause you to be blocked. --wL<speak·check> 06:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)