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:Could you wait for the process to run its course or is it your to afraid to see what the results of it will be? We are not done it is just escalating.[[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] ([[User talk:LoveMonkey|talk]]) 14:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
:Could you wait for the process to run its course or is it your to afraid to see what the results of it will be? We are not done it is just escalating.[[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] ([[User talk:LoveMonkey|talk]]) 14:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
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::On the contrary, I want to see the results from the process that I initiated. Instead of letting it go off on a tangent, I would like it to deal with the question I raised. Do you yourself, Love, really believe you can justify your ''blanket'' reverting? I split my editing up into individual elements so as to enable you to distinguish between these elements and say what, if anything, you find wrong with each of them. Yet you persist in your to my mind quite unjustified total reverting. [[User:Esoglou|Esoglou]] ([[User talk:Esoglou|talk]]) 14:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
::On the contrary, I want to see the results from the process that I initiated. Instead of letting it go off on a tangent, I would like it to deal with the question I raised. Do you yourself, Love, really believe you can justify your ''blanket'' reverting? I split my editing up into individual elements so as to enable you to distinguish between these elements and say what, if anything, you find wrong with each of them. Yet you persist in your to my mind quite unjustified total reverting. [[User:Esoglou|Esoglou]] ([[User talk:Esoglou|talk]]) 14:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
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1965
I don't think "In 1965, the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople nullified the anathemas of 1054.[2] " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.56.90 (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- See, for instance, Miriam Webster New Book of Word Histories and for an English translation of the joint declaration by which each side consigned the excommunication (anathemas) to oblivion see the Joint Catholic-Orthodox Declaration of the two leaders. Esoglou (talk) 20:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Edit warring on Papal infallibility
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring
Per the Catholic Encyclopedia online.
- "No workable rule can be given for deciding when such subsequent ratification as this theory requires becomes effective and even if this could be done in the case of some of the earlier councils whose definitions are received by the Anglicans, it would still be true that since the Photian schism it has been practically impossible to secure any such consensus as is required — in other words that the working of infallible authority, the purpose of which is to teach every generation, has been suspended since the ninth century, and that Christ's promises to His Church have been falsified."[1]
LoveMonkey (talk) 22:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Papal infallibility either has a history before it was made dogma or it don't. It either materialized out of thin air in the 19th century or it didn't.LoveMonkey (talk) 22:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please read Conciliarism. (Other articles might also be cited, but that is perhaps the clearest to cite.) After that, ask yourself do you really think that Western bishops have always felt obliged to consider the Pope infallible? And that was centuries after the East-West schism, for which you seem to posit as a cause a refusal by the Eastern bishops as distinct from the Western, to consider the Pope infallible! Esoglou (talk) 22:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia can't be used to source wikipedia. Also I have and the article undermines your position.. I mean this passage is in the article.
- Although Conciliarist strains of thought remain within the Church, particularly in the United States, Rome and the teaching of the Roman Church maintains that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth, and has the authority to issue infallible statements. This Papal Infallibility was invoked in Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary
What did Photius say? Did Photius oppose the authority of the Pope as final say on church matters or not? You are for your POV about the Orthodox's position. But why is the Orthodox wiki making statements like this?
- "Pope Nicholas I, who was eager to assert his power over the Eastern church. Pope Nicholas had previously been successful in bringing the Western church under his absolute control, and he now sought the same power over the East."[2]. Why can't the Orthodox position be stated? You want your position but yours says ours as Orthodox is ignorant, misinformed, not historically relevant, corrupted by partisans etc etc. Also what you think and or what I think should not be the content of articles here.LoveMonkey (talk) 02:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
My dearest brother, we do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy among the five sister patriarchates and we recognize her right to the most honorable seat at the Ecumenical Council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office... How shall we accept decrees from her that have been issued without consulting us and even without our knowledge? If the Roman pontiff seated on the lofty throne of his glory wished to thunder at us and, so to speak, hurl his mandates at us from on high and if he wishes to judge us and even to rule us and our churches, not by taking counsel with us but at his own arbitrary pleasure what kind of brotherhood, or even what kind of parenthood can this be? We should be the slaves not the sons, of such a church and the Roman see would not be the pious mother of sons but a hard and imperious mistress of slaves
— Archbishop Nicetas of Nicomedia of the Twelfth Century[1]
LoveMonkey (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources for Wikipedia articles, and in this case haven't been so used. The same holds for OrthodoxWiki articles. But such articles can be enlightening for people who don't have a closed mind. From what you say, it seems that even Photios the Great said nothing about papal infallibility. So what reliable source is there for the statement for whose preservation you have edit-warred by reverting twice, while two other editors see it as unrelated to the causes of the 11th-century East-West Schism? Or are you only using synthesis in support? Esoglou (talk) 07:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is the statement as I have restored it.
- "But these bishops did not regard the Bishop of Rome as infallible, nor did they acknowledge any juridical authority of Rome."
- This is the edit summary that was used to justify the removal of the mention of papal infallibility.
- "Papal infallibility was not promulgated until 1870, so the statement about bishops in the early Church is anachronistic, like saying early settlers of the state of New York didn't like the Mets."
- The part of the statement called into question that is being readded and removed is "But these bishops did not regard the Bishop of Rome as infallible."
- WP:SYN is not in direct conflict with WP:COMMON SENSE. I posted from the Catholic encyclopedia not exactly an Orthodox source where it acknowledges the history of papal infallibility. Also you comment about Orthodox wiki is wrong. As I have abit of a war with a sysop there over copying articles from there to wikipedia so yes Orthodox wiki can and is a source for wikipedia. As for sources I have already given at least three the Catholic encyclopedia, the Orthodox wiki and Kallistos Ware. As just because papal infallibility was made dogma in the 1800s doesn't mean was was invented whole cloth right there on the spot and that is what you are implying. As if the Christian Church did not exist before the biblical cannon was created. As if the bible fell right out of the sky and men did not lick the ends of pen and ink it.LoveMonkey (talk) 12:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- In short, your only source is your own common sense? Or is it, after all, a synthesis that you have made between what the Catholic Encyclopedia said about conciliar infallibility and your own ideas of papal infallibility? Or, to be more exact, is it that synthesis topped with a further synthesis between it and your ideas of the causes of the East-West Schism?
- (If OrthodoxWiki texts, like those in Wikipedia, can be freely copied anywhere, I doubt that the sysop is saying you can't copy from it to Wikipedia. Is it rather that the sysop is saying instead that you can't quote OrthodoxWiki as a reliable source for some disputed statement in Wikipedia? How convenient it would be to make an edit in OrthodoxWiki and then use it as a so-called reliable source for what someone wants to have in Wikipedia! But I refuse to discuss that matter further: it concerns you and the sysop, not this article.) Esoglou (talk) 15:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- As for sources I have already given at least three the Catholic encyclopedia, the Orthodox wiki and Kallistos Ware.LoveMonkey (talk) 15:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Which of the two that can be counted as reliable sources says a dispute about papal infallibility (not just jurisdiction) was a cause of the East-West Schism? (No personal synthesis of your own, please.) Esoglou (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Kallistos Ware.. Also Laurent Cleenewerck in His Broken Body: Understanding and Healing the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. pp. 301-30, John Meyendorff, John Romanides, Vladimir Lossky. LoveMonkey (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Do you want Roman Catholic ones? Is that what this is about? Like say this one [3] about this very debate as it happened in 1100 or so AD between Nicetas of Nicomedia and Anselm of Havelberg? Or maybe Tomáš Špidlík?LoveMonkey (talk) 16:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- If your stick on the word infallible (even though thats how the filioque was made dogma justified) I am completely OK with the sentence saying.
- "But these bishops did not regard the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as infallible, nor did they acknowledge any juridical authority of Rome."LoveMonkey (talk) 16:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Do you want Roman Catholic ones? Is that what this is about? Like say this one [3] about this very debate as it happened in 1100 or so AD between Nicetas of Nicomedia and Anselm of Havelberg? Or maybe Tomáš Špidlík?LoveMonkey (talk) 16:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
An Agreed Statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation
[4]
"A new stage in the history of the controversy was reached in the early eleventh century. During the synod following the coronation of King Henry II as Holy Roman Emperor at Rome in 1014, the Creed, including the Filioque, was sung for the first time at a papal Mass. Because of this action, the liturgical use of the Creed, with the Filioque, now was generally assumed in the Latin Church to have the sanction of the papacy. Its inclusion in the Eucharist, after two centuries of papal resistance of the practice, reflected a new dominance of the German Emperors over the papacy, as well as the papacy’s growing sense of its own authority, under imperial protection, within the entire Church, both western and eastern."
and
"The Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438-1445) again brought together representatives from the Church of Rome and the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, to discuss a wide range of controversial issues, including papal authority and the Filioque."
and finally
As in the theological question of the origin of the Holy Spirit discussed above, this divergence of understanding of the structure and exercise of authority in the Church is clearly a very serious one: undoubtedly Papal primacy, with all its implications, remains the root issue behind all the questions of theology and practice that continue to divide our communions. LoveMonkey (talk) 16:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Would you please direct me to whichever of these spoke of infallibility as a bone of contention between East and West at the time of the schism? I must have overlooked whichever one or ones did speak of that question (rather than of the question of authority) as a live question in or around 1054. Please guide me to whatever it is that you found. Did someone as far back as 1054 maintain that some already existing ex cathedra papal declaration (which one?) about "Filioque" (with "procedit") was not only right but "infallible"? Have you perhaps anachronically projected back to that time disputes that arose only later? Esoglou (talk) 17:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
We seem to be missing each other. I would have responded sooner but Wikipedia was down yesterday. I see however today someone appears to have added what I felt the addition was contributing. So I abnegate. I think the contribution, words the position and sources it quite well.[5]LoveMonkey (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
However I would like to find out what the term is that the Roman Catholic church uses to justify the insertion of filoque by the Pope at say the coronation of Henry II, before any council was convened. Also what the term is that is used to justify Pope Clement II making it doctrine for the whole church before any council was convened.
So is the term
- 1.papal infallibility
- 2.papal primacy
- 3.papal universal jurisdiction
- 4.Unam Sanctam
- 5.papal supremacy
- 6.papal authority
- 7.Primacy of the Roman Pontiff
- 8.Petrine doctrine
- 9.Vicar
- 10.Vicar of Christ
- 11.vicarius principis apostolorum
- 12.Praetorian prefect
- 13.Dominium mundi
- 14.Papal Diplomacy
- 15.papal stature
- 16.Roman Curia
- 17.papism,[6]
- 18.universal supremacy
- 19.papal magisterium]
- 20.Investiture Controversy
- 21.Petrine Primacy
- 22.the man behind the curtain
or whatever.
Please forgive me if I am abit confused and maybe fought for the wrong term for why the Pope believes he can change church dogma without council with the East based on his own stature.
LoveMonkey (talk) 15:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't suppose there was any theorizing whatever in 1014. If I remember right (perhaps I don't) the Creed was not sung in the divine liturgy in Rome until then, perhaps not even recited. They just decided on that occasion to sing it, as it was sung generally in the rest of Latin-speaking Europe. As you know, the Creed in Latin also has the phrase "Deum de Deo", which was in the original Nicene Creed, but not in the later "Niceno-Constantinopolitan" version, which is used in the Byzantine liturgy Esoglou (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
"Deum de Deo"... was that recited in church in Latin? In the West at the time of the council? What you said is illogical. When in the West did the creed begin to be recited in Latin?LoveMonkey (talk) 16:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- How does Roman Catholic theology resolve this passage of the creed..
- "Jesus Christ who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;"
- With the filloque?
- So does Jesus incarnate of the Holy Spirit after the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son? Also if they come from one another why can't the father come from them. Also what is the father then? If Christ was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, what the father for?LoveMonkey (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- How does Roman Catholic theology resolve this passage of the creed..
Finally to answer your question directly, who in the time of the schism can be attributed to having in the East said that it is the Pope's decision to make the filioque dogma for the whole church, was one of the causes of the schism. Well for one that would be Saint Nicetas [7]. You don't seem to be wanting to address the things that he is said to have expressed. I think we should work together to have these points of contention stated in the article. I think there should be a wikipedia page created for the saint. We could do it together. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Four Crusade that ultimately destroyed the Byzantine Empire
[8] So how should it be worded that the Fourth Crusade weakened the Byzantine Empire so much so that it could not recover?LoveMonkey (talk) 17:35,
25 March 2010 (UTC) http://vizantia.info/docs/73.htm 800 tons of gold is not enough?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.6.190 (talk) 09:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Esoglou's edits, what gives?
I removed this passage that Esoglou added to the article claiming to correct distortions I had added to the article.
- It was never condemned by the seven ecumenical councils formally accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church, but has been rejected by the Synod of Jerusalem, which states that "for the regenerated to do spiritual good – for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual – it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace … Consequently he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life".[115]
- The views expressed by John Cassian to which critics have pointed as examples of his alleged semi-Pelagianism are found in his Conferences, in book 3, the Conference of Abbot Paphnutius; book 5, the Conference of Abbot Serapion; and most especially in book 13, the Third Conference of Abbot Chaeremon.
The source Esoglou provides [9] makes no mention at all of Saint John Cassian nor mention of Semipelagianism. No mention that the ascetic doctrine of Cassian is rejected and not taught by the Orthodox Church. I can not find any Orthodox sources that stated that the Orthodox rejected Cassian AT ALL. Nor can I find any source Orthodox or not tying Cassian to any Synod of Jerusalem. Let alone the Synod that could be sourced by (i.e. the Synod of Jerusalem (1672)). Cassian and his teaching of Synergeia I can find no placed condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Where is this coming from? LoveMonkey (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- The Synod of Jerusalem
, which some Orthodox feel should be listed as an ecumenical council,declared that, unless grace is first given to him, man can do nothing contributory to salvation. This is against the teaching that man can take the first steps to salvation without divine grace, the teaching that the article called Semipelagianism. That is what was condemned, not Cassian. The Council of Orange also condemned Semipelagianism, but not Cassian. Cassian, who died a century before either condemnation of Semipelagianism was issued, is a saint for both the Eastern and the Western Church. - The second paragraph quoted above is not mine. It was already in the article. I thought it was absolutely unhelpful, and would have omitted it but for fear of stirring up a defence of it. I am grateful to LoveMonkey for now objecting to it, and so enabling it to be excised. Esoglou (talk) 14:11, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
"which some Orthodox feel"? More doublespeak and gibberish. You posted that the Orthodox with a council have condemned a part of their own theology. You've done this TWICE.LoveMonkey (talk) 01:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- I was wrong in thinking the Synod of Jerusalem was proposed as ecumenical. I mistakenly thought that an Orthodox source concerning the lack of formal recognition of any ecumenical council after the seventh (and which does mention the Synod of Jerusalem) had spoken of this synod/council as proposed for recognition. In reality, as I find, the source only spoke of proposals for recognition of an 8th and a 9th ecumenical council. The source mentioned the Synod of Jerusalem only as a local council. It is like the Council of Orange, which in spite of the 1912 remark of Joseph Pohle is not reckoned as ecumenical in the West. Thanks for drawing my attention to my error.
- Love, do you really think that it is actual Orthodox teaching, and not just an opinion, that man can take the first steps towards salvation without any assistance of God's grace? What source can you cite? If it is actual teaching of the Orthodox Church, then I suppose that the Synod of Jerusalem, which upheld the contradictory view, must be considered heretical.
- I don't see why you cancelled "The semipelagian doctrine, as expounded by Faustus of Riez, was denounced as heretical both at Constantinople and Rome by John Maxentius and his monks soon after 520" (practically a quotation from the cited source), on the grounds that "Maxentius position was not validated by any Eastern Council bad distortion Orange is not in Constaninople". Of course we know that John Maxentius failed to get a hearing in either Constantinople or Rome (and that Orange is in neither city), but it is a verified fact that he did denounce Semipelagianism as heretical. However, I think this verified fact can be omitted as unimportant, since you dislike it so strongly.
- By the way, it is quite obvious that "Cassian took no part in his condemnation" (as if anyone would be likely to take part in his own condemnation). Is this perhaps a reference to the Council of Orange, as I notice you wrote at first? Apart from the fact that that council did not condemn Cassian himself nor, as far as I know, did any other council, Cassian was dead for nearly a century when the Council of Orange was held. Esoglou (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Esoglou does not know what they are talking about in relation to Orthodox theology
Vladimir Lossky in The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church pg 198 speaks of John Cassian upholding the Orthodox position against the slow contamination of the Western church by the teachings of Augustine. Lossky states Cassian is a saint in both East and West that his teaching was condemned in the West but he does not say Cassian was in any, way, shape, form or fashion was EVER rejected or condemned in the East. Lossky makes no mention of any council. Also on Maxentius-[10]LoveMonkey (talk) 00:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- That's Lossky's view, then. Put it in. Or, if you wish, I'll put it in myself. Esoglou (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Funny I posted Lossky before you posted this.
Love, do you really think that it is actual Orthodox teaching, and not just an opinion, that man can take the first steps towards salvation without any assistance of God's grace? What source can you cite? If it is actual teaching of the Orthodox Church, then I suppose that the Synod of Jerusalem, which upheld the contradictory view, must be considered heretical.
LoveMonkey (talk) 03:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
After more mistakes Lima/Esoglou continues to edit war
Why was this passage removed now for at least a second time? Without discussion.
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Cassian's doctrine is not referred to as Semipelagianism it is referred to as the theological doctrine of synergy or cooperation between man's will and the will of God. The working together of the Holy Spirit and each person towards the person's salvation. The Eastern Orthodox teach the doctrine of synergy comparable to "saving a drowning man by throwing a rope to him, on which he must choose to or to not grab in order to receive the help offered". As Cassian had endeavored in his thirteenth chapter of Conferences section 11 to demonstrate from Biblical examples that God frequently awaits the good impulses of the natural will before coming to its assistance with His supernatural grace; while the grace often preceded the will, as in the case of Matthew and Peter, on the other hand the will frequently preceded the grace, as in the case of Zacchæus and the Good Thief on the Cross.
LoveMonkey (talk) 17:04, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- Please, Love, look more carefully. The above is still in the article. The last part, on what John Cassian actually wrote, has been moved to the exposition of his view in the first part of the subsection, but it is still in the article. See this edit.
- Would you be so good as to let me know what are the mistakes that you say I have made, so that I can correct them? I feel confident that none of them is as bad as the twofold falsification of a quotation that you made, presumably by mistake, not out of malice. See here and here.
- I am restoring my work, and please don't edit-war by deleting it. Instead, indicate what you think needs correction or further sourcing. And please back up your own statements for which I have asked you to provide valid sources. Esoglou (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Third opinion
Weaponbb7 (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
- Viewpoint by Esoglou.
On the grounds of "the amount of errors and the wholesale removal what Cassian actually states and a complete misrepresentation of the Orthodox position", LoveMonkey has twice blanket-reverted my editing of 21 June 2010. His reverting is not justified by the alleged removal of what Cassian actually states, which, as I have shown above, has not been removed. Nor is it justified on the grounds of alleged errors, which I would be happy to discuss if he would only specify them. Nor on the grounds of alleged complete misrepresentation of the Orthodox position: I have quoted sources on the Orthodox position, while he on the contrary has actually changed (falsified) the words of a quotation from an Orthodox catechism to make them fit his own view. I am sorry for being unable to put this in a single short sentence. Thank you for intervening. Esoglou (talk) 05:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- Viewpoint by LoveMonkey
- ....
I'll respond (PS thanks for the vote of Good faith) Esoglou continues to misrepresent the Eastern Orthodox opinion. Esoglou it seems can not leave that position alone and has to reword it. Hence the streams and streams of editwarring away what Esoglou does not like being said. Lima/Esoglou is doing what is called in the East (by say George Florovsky for one example) as "Western captivity". Where the Eastern positions are not actually given by the Orthodox unless that Orthodox position is one that agrees with the West. The Orthodox theology is not allowed to stand by itself. As such many Western peoples have grave misconceptions about what the Orthodox actually believe and have not come to realize they have not actually asked the Orthodox but instead have asked what the Roman Catholic opinion of the Orthodox is. Lima/Esoglou is continuing this exact same tradition. It appears Esoglou just can not leave it as it is but instead has to constantly reword the opinion with Esoglou's own Original Research in some cases so that the Orthodox have no opinion of their own. So they are full of misconceptions about themselves and only the West really understands the East. This is completely ridiculous. Lima/Esoglou could just leave the Eastern entries as they stand. But Esoglou refuses to do that. I mean I have not went into the Roman Catholic sections and started any kind of this nonsense. Whats Esoglou afraid of, in letting the Orthodox positions stand unmolested? LoveMonkey (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- Third opinion by Weaponbb7
Due to looking a LoveMonkey (talk · contribs) editing Pattern I don't think he is going to Respond to this, it seems this is actually may be a longterm problem with no easy solution.
I who? your sig is missing.LoveMonkey (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok text in question below here Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- OK, here's one this is hopefully simple enough to understand.[11]
But the view that the first steps of salvation are in the power of the individual without any need of divine grace, a view expounded by Cassian and Faustus of Riez,[2] was condemned by the local Council of Orange in 529. The local Synod of Jerusalem (1672) also laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good.[3]
The Orthodox Church does not condemn it's own teachings from John Cassian. This above is something Esoglou made up. Esoglou can not find a single Orthodox theologian whom teaches this. Not one that ties the teachings of Cassian to any Orthodox authorized and accepted Synod of Jerusalem (1672). You won't find anything like this passage above in anything Orthodox. The council text Esoglou posted makes no mention of Cassian, synergy, semipelgainism. None of it. This is Original Research Esoglou made up.LoveMonkey (talk) 17:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
tentative WP:3O opinion
I am not a Theologian, But looking at the Diff provided, it does seem there is alot of primary sources being used in the Version posited by Esoglou, which intended or not do seem to be potentially run the very serious risk of OR when used to support a statement. In addtion the portion on this individual Cassian seems rather bizarre part of this dispute as The Greek Orthodox church considers him as a Saint thus I am concluding that LoveMonkey is perhaps more right than Esoglou. I would Recomend on this article that the use of Primary Sources be shunned as well as ones that are being sourced to that seem to be free floating sites that fail would likely Fail at the WP:RSN. Both Editors please review WP:PSTS Google Scholar and the Altla (I think thats how it is spelled) have troves of secondary sources and any normal Encyclopedia will would provide an excellent Tertiary sources.
If Esoglou wishes to use a different diff that more accurately displays his position i will be happy to reconsider
Weaponbb7 (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you Weaponbb7.LoveMonkey (talk) 19:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Response to tentative WP:3O opinion by Esoglou
- I am sorry I don't understand what are the primary sources that you are referring to. The one clearly primary source is the passage from John Cassian, which LoveMonkey inserted and accused me falsely of deleting. I have no objection whatever to its omission. LoveMonkey does.
Ok, Basicly the problem is here is various Websites that are Done by Various Churches Can be interpreted as Primary sources or could lack authority to speak on the Matter. Thus Secondary sources Preferably from some one a Religious Studies field or Religous History would extremely preferable. Weaponbb7 (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think one needs to be a theologian to follow this. The Eastern Orthodox Church (EOC), you say, considers Cassian a Saint. That provides no ground for concluding that LoveMonkey is perhaps more right, since the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) too considers Cassian a Saint.
- What I am asking is that LoveMonkey discuss the differences instead of reverting everything in edit-warring style. Which difference can we start with? I would gladly leave the choice to him. But since he still has not specified any particular difference, but has simply linked to the one reversion that I permitted myself and that he re-reverted immediately after, perhaps we can start with the first point of divergence between the two versions.
This is what i get for Walking in on this Middle of the conversation
- The topic of these sections is the issues that are dividing the two churches and so perpetuating the schism. LoveMonkey says that the EOC does not accept Augustine's theology. So what? Neither does the RCC. The most logical thing would be to omit discussion of Augustine's theology, and limit the discussion to the teachings of the two churches. It was and is obvious that LoveMonkey would object to such an excision; so I kept the account of Augustine's theology, separating it from the account of the teachings of the two churches This I made my first paragraph. The citations in that paragraph were inserted in the article by LoveMonkey, not by me; so I presume there is no objection to those citations.
I concur, However Augstine was a BIG if not THE theologian for many centuries even if he is no longer considered by either faith to such status, he was key at one time around the time of the split so in historical terms it is relevant even if it is not currently perpetuating it. 23:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- My second paragraph then is on the teaching of the EOC. It is taken from LoveMonkey's first paragraph, with one important change. LoveMonkey attributes to the catechism of Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios the following text:
- "ancestral sin is therefore hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does their sin and corruption of existence. We all of us exist in the corrupted existence we inherited due to the ancestral sin of our forefathers forefather, Adam."
- What that EOC catechism really says is:
- "original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin. We all of us exist in the corrupted existence we inherited due to the ancestral sin of our forefather, Adam."
- Surely it is not legitimate to falsify quotations from our cited sources.
- By the way, you surely don't object to catechisms as sources for knowing a church's teaching. Is that what you mean by "primary sources"? But official expositions of a church's teaching as in a catechism are incomparably the best source for sure and exact knowledge of what the church does teach.
Yes, Catechism is Tricky though as its meant to dumb it down so laypeople can understand How this disagreement sounds like Translation issues from the original greek. Weaponbb7 (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- I could go on, but I have no more time tonight. If it is so desired, I will gladly continue tomorrow. But I think I have given enough ground for raising doubts about whether LoveMonkey was right to revert my editing without agreeing to discuss it here on the Talk page or to ...
- I must interrupt myself here, and first apologize for what seems to have been certainly a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that the difference that LoveMonkey had posted was the whole of the edit linked to with the number 11 above, in other words this one. I see now that LoveMonkey was more specific. (Pity he wasn't specific earlier, and we could have discussed the question here without having to bring someone else in.)
- LoveMonkey objects to "But the view that the first steps of salvation are in the power of the individual without any need of divine grace, a view expounded by Cassian and Faustus of Riez,[2] was condemned by the local Council of Orange in 529. The local Synod of Jerusalem (1672) also laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good.[3]" on the grounds that "The Orthodox Church does not condemn it's own teachings from John Cassian. This above is something Esoglou made up. Esoglou can not find a single Orthodox theologian whom teaches this. Not one that ties the teachings of Cassian to any Orthodox authorized and accepted Synod of Jerusalem (1672). You won't find anything like this passage above in anything Orthodox. The council text Esoglou posted makes no mention of Cassian, synergy, semipelgainism. None of it. This is Original Research Esoglou made up."|
- What a lot there is to say on that! To begin with, LoveMonkey claims, without any source, that Cassian's idea is a teaching of the EOC, not just an idea that may be entertained by some of its members. Secondly, my text does not claim that the Synod of Jerusalem made mention of Cassian, synergy or Semi-Pelagianism (a correct spelling). What it says of that synod is that it "laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good". It did, didn't it? And isn't that related to the definition of Semi-Pelagianism given earlier in the same section (in LoveMonkey's version of the article), namely that the first steps to salvation are sometimes in the power of the individual, without any need of God's grace? So it is not off topic. And isn't this statement by a synod of the EOC that has been called "the most important in the modern history of the Eastern Church, and may be compared to the Council of Trent" an important enough source to make one doubt the accuracy of LoveMonkey's undocumented claim that Semi-Pelagianism is official doctrine of the EOC? It is simply not "something Esoglou made up".
- A pity I had a visitor earlier this evening, making me rush this reply. But surely I have said enough to undo the impression that "LoveMonkey is perhaps more right than Esoglou". Far from justifying LoveMonkey's reversions, the comparison between the two versions indicates that the unsourced claims LoveMonkey makes in his own version and refuses to support with valid citations in reply to a "citation needed" or "verification failed" tag, together with his falsification of a source, are enough to perhaps justify repeated reversions by me, which I have not wished to do, so as not to imitate his edit-warring. Esoglou (talk) 21:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
One Recmendation since this appears to be more than a minor issue but a whole host of issues of varying degrees of importance i recommend i
Getting help From both Wikipedia:CATHOLIC and WP:EO as well as Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity.
23:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- I am sorry if my hurried response yesterday evening was too sharp. First of all, you didn't walk in in the midst of a conversation. You very kindly accepted an urgent invitation to come in and get a conversation going. All I wanted was to get LoveMonkey to discuss the issues instead of blanket-reverting. If I had wanted to get others involved in discussing the issues – something I did have in mind – I would have made a Request for Comment on the discussion – if there had been one. Even if my editing were wrong on some points, that would justify reverting on those points, but not repeated total reverting. My question therefore was whether LoveMonkey's repeated total reverting was justified. Perhaps my question has not been answered.
- Oh, with regard to the undoubted BIGness of Augustine, the bugbear for some people (in spite of the Fifth Ecumenical Council's statement: "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo, and their writings on the true faith"!), you will note that I did not eliminate him from the article, but merely distinguished his teaching from that of the churches. Surely not only legitimate but actually required. Esoglou (talk) 07:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
monkey lover response [12]
WOW I mean WOW to the magnitude of outright blatant misrepresentation. The primary source I posted here and noted that Esoglou is corrupting has no Cassian sourcing in it where is that? Me sourcing Cassian directly in the passage I posted here? In response to weaponbb7s request? No, Esoglou posted a passage from the council in Jerusalem 1672. Here is the passage I posted, again...
But the view that the first steps of salvation are in the power of the individual without any need of divine grace, a view expounded by Cassian and Faustus of Riez,[2] was condemned by the local Council of Orange in 529. The local Synod of Jerusalem (1672) also laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good.[4]
So again where Lima/Esoglou is quoting Dositheus (http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html Confession of Dositheus, Decree 14) directly to bolster that the Eastern Orthodox condemn the teachings of Cassian (which they don't)
equate to
Esoglou wrote
- "The one clearly primary source is the passage from John Cassian, which LoveMonkey inserted and accused me falsely of deleting"
From my perspective could someone please stop Esoglou from posting Dositheus (http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html Confession of Dositheus, Decree 14) as a source for the Orthodox council of Jerusalem supposedly saying the Orthodox condemned at it Cassian, semipelagaianism, synergy? As Dositheus is a primary source, a primary source that AGAIN makes no mention of Cassian, semipelagianism, synergy nor condemn any such thing. As "The local Synod of Jerusalem (1672) also laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good." did no such as thing as condemn Cassian, synergy, semipelagianism."
And to continue..
Esoglou wrote
- "To begin with, LoveMonkey claims, without any source, that Cassian's idea is a teaching of the EOC,"
Sure I did provide sources for several days now in the article Michael Azkoul, An Introduction to the Orthodox Christian Understanding of Free Will and here on the talkpage [13]. But I can provide more. How many mistakes and boo boos that cause edit warring and incredible amounts of personal time and frustration are going to be allowed? Enough with the playing dumb as an excuse to editwar already. Hes committed 3rr on the Filioque article twice already. And nobody can do anything? Tell me why its ok for Esoglou to be using that source to say something it does not say, is that not Original Research? Esoglou still can't find an Orthodox theologian that will state Cassian's view was condemn at any eastern council.
And some more..
Esoglou wrote
- Pity he wasn't specific earlier, and we could have discussed the question here without having to bring someone else in.)
Yes I was.[14] And I was just as specific. You have no excuses.
Esoglou wrote
- "Secondly, my text does not claim that the Synod of Jerusalem made mention of Cassian, synergy or Semi-Pelagianism (a correct spelling). What it says of that synod is that it "laid down that grace must guide and precede any action that is spiritually good". It did, didn't it?"
I am asking someone, anyone to explain how this passage belongs at all in this article for this section. Anyone to explain what this means? That Esoglou is doublespeaking? It is unjustified for what it implies by what it proceeds.
Either its about the paragraph its in or its a random add it in that needs to be removed. Now here is a whopper.
Esoglou wrote
- "And isn't that related to the definition of Semi-Pelagianism given earlier in the same section (in LoveMonkey's version of the article), namely that the first steps to salvation are sometimes in the power of the individual, without any need of God's grace? So it is not off topic."
- So which is it? Is it a source or not. Either way its random or its original research.
Esoglou wrote
- "And isn't this statement by a synod of the EOC that has been called "the most important in the modern history of the Eastern Church, and may be compared to the Council of Trent" an important enough source to make one doubt the accuracy of LoveMonkey's undocumented claim that Semi-Pelagianism is official doctrine of the EOC? It is simply not "something Esoglou made up".
What? What? The council says nothing about Cassian and no Orthodox theologian I can find makes this connection.
Esoglou wrote
- "LoveMonkey makes in his own version and refuses to support with valid citations in reply to a "citation needed" or "verification failed tag,"
I've posted plenty where did I supposedly do any of this?
Esoglou wrote
- together with his falsification of a source,
What source did I falsify?
Esoglou wrote
- "are enough to perhaps justify repeated reversions by me, which I have not wished to do, so as not to imitate his edit-warring."
Nonsense I addressed this with you on the talkpage specifically 3 days ago [15] you blew it off and keep right on reverting, rewriting and ignoring.LoveMonkey (talk) 04:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Love, the links you give to your elimination of a series of hyphens are not very enlightening. You ask what quotation you falsified. I repeat, you changed "original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin. We all of us exist in the corrupted existence we inherited due to the ancestral sin of our forefather, Adam" to "ancestral sin is therefore hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does their sin and corruption of existence. We all of us exist in the corrupted existence we inherited due to the ancestral sin of our forefathers forefather, Adam". Did you not? And surely a statement by a synod of the EOC is as good a source as any on what really is EOC teaching on the question whether one can take the first steps towards salvation without any help whatever from divine grace (which is how you define Semipelagianism, which in turn you attribute to John Cassian). Esoglou (talk) 07:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can now get down to discussing whatever objections you can propose to my editing of the section that you have retouched after twice blanket-reverted my editing, the section on synergy (there is an interesting article on this) and free will. I have indicated separately this time the different elements of my editing of that section, so that you can indicate which elements you believe are wrong (every one of them?) and why. I will do the same for the other sections that you blanket-reverted, if that is required to get you to offer reasoned indications of why you thought they must all be reverted. Esoglou (talk) 10:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
What is this? Where is Weaponbb7's response before you jump back in and try and change the subject? At least provide the diffs Esoglou. Get down to maybe you stop with your Original Research and edit warring.LoveMonkey (talk) 12:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
LoveMonkey & Esoglou
This seems to be a bigger issue than I can handle by myself, as this is getting very theological and using terminology that is little out of my league. Both of your Edit histories show a lot of good work contributing to articles on related topics. I highly recommend getting help From both Catholic Work Group and The Eastern Orthodox Workgroup as well as Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity. I recommend these groups since individuals working there will be able to evaluate source, interpretations and the like much more effectively than I can. I will maintain a presence on the page to facilitate the goal of of bringing knoledgeable editors on this topic to weigh in. Does this sound like a plan? Weaponbb7 (talk) 13:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- As long as it is unbiased yes it does.LoveMonkey (talk) 13:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Tell me from the lack of conclusive decision what justification does Esoglou have to have reverted out my contributions to the article and to also rewrite almost this entire section of contested material. Esoglou rewrote the Orthodox parts to say that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic teach the same things when the sources that he used (some that I provided) do not state such a thing. Esoglou went ahead and removed and reverted without consensus.LoveMonkey (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Is this your proposal for an invitation to join the discussion? Weaponbb7 (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- I thought I was already in the discussion. But sure. But I agree adn thought thhat we where in the middle of such a thing. That's why I complained about Esoglou going into the article today and wholesale rewriting and deleting and distorting.LoveMonkey (talk) 14:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- sorry i need to make myself clear. What is a Neutral Statement of the problem that both of you can agree to that we can post on Respective Talk pages of these project to get a wider consensus on the issues?
- You have some signature issues. They are making it hard for me to follow when you are saying something since I am unclear if and who might have made a post. But Yes I agree and that what was happening. And is why I made the complaint in Esoglou wholesale writing and edit warring today without getting consensus first here. LoveMonkey (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
You know if you go and look on the Filioque article. You'll notice that Esoglou is now edit warring with an Orthodox Priest. Maybe he can tell Father Whiteford how Father Whiteford does not know his own churchs' theology and doctrine. LoveMonkey (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Predestination as Roman Catholic dogma
The Roman Catholic Church has a PR problem either Esolgou is correct that the Roman Catholic Church rejects Augustine's predestination or the New Advent is wrong.[16] Now I obviously think that Esoglou Mr doublespeak confusion is wrong. But if the New Advent is wrong then ALL of the Roman Catholics who try and say it is (its 3000 years old or whatever lame excuse it is) are a party to something incredibly unethical. Since they need to clear their own house and not DARE be critical of anyone whom in good faith took the New Advent website at what it said.LoveMonkey (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly Augustine's predestination theory, as interpreted by you, Love, as contrary to free will, is contrary to Catholic teaching (see Catechism of the Catholic Church). Does the article by Joseph Pole in 1911 agree with your interpretation? If it does- and I see no reason for thinking that it does - that too is contrary to Catholic teaching. Esoglou (talk) 14:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Its so obvious. The article clearly states that the Roman Catholic church as a matter of DOGMA teaches the concept of predestination. PERIOD. Keep trying to twist it. I'll eventually get you to put enough mistakes that to administrators on here they will see the game your playing.LoveMonkey (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it does. You don't have to go back a century to find that the Catholic Church teaches predestination. But it doesn't teach your idea of predestination, Love. Esoglou (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
My idea. I was only quoting what I had read. Why did you remove it then in this diff?[17]LoveMonkey (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Look at the diff Esoglou.14:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Request for third opinion
May I repeat my request for a third opinion on the question whether LoveMonkey's blanket reverting of all edits by me, without attempting to give reasons for more than a couple of them (at best), is justified? He has done it again. As I remarked above, one could understand reverting individual items on which an editor disagrees, but I do not see how one can justify blanket reverting while reserving to oneself the right to continue to make edits. So is LoveMonkey's repeated blanket reverting justified or is it not? Esoglou (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Could you wait for the process to run its course or is it your to afraid to see what the results of it will be? We are not done it is just escalating.LoveMonkey (talk) 14:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I want to see the results from the process that I initiated. Instead of letting it go off on a tangent, I would like it to deal with the question I raised. Do you yourself, Love, really believe you can justify your blanket reverting? I split my editing up into individual elements so as to enable you to distinguish between these elements and say what, if anything, you find wrong with each of them. Yet you persist in your to my mind quite unjustified total reverting. Esoglou (talk) 14:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The Page is now Locked from anyone (Except Admins) editing it for 72 hours Weaponbb7 (talk) 14:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- ^ ”The Orthodox Church London" by Kallistos Ware St. Vladimir's Seminary Press 1995 ISBN 978-0913836583
- ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
ODCC-Semipel
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ "For the regenerated to do spiritual good – for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual – it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace … Consequently he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life" (Confession of Dositheus, Decree 14).
- ^ "For the regenerated to do spiritual good – for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual – it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace … Consequently he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life" (Confession of Dositheus, Decree 14).