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:Note: To be fair (*snicker*) I've found [http://books.google.com/books?id=hLvNaP_IPqQC&lpg=PA93&dq=%22Christ%20myth%22%20Robert%20Price&pg=PA93#v=onepage&q&f=false one place] where Price sketches out his views on the Christ myth theory in a book by the mainstream publisher Macmillian. If you'd like to use this source in Price's section, (please oh please) go right ahead. Only, I think that in that case there are some [http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan-ashe/2963641833/sizes/l/in/set-72157618354282639/ better pictures] we could use as well. (Man, N. T. Wright's ''got'' to be jealous of [http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan-ashe/2964477482/sizes/l/in/set-72157618354282639/ that mitre].) [[User:Eugeneacurry|Eugene]] ([[User talk:Eugeneacurry|talk]]) 18:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)) |
:Note: To be fair (*snicker*) I've found [http://books.google.com/books?id=hLvNaP_IPqQC&lpg=PA93&dq=%22Christ%20myth%22%20Robert%20Price&pg=PA93#v=onepage&q&f=false one place] where Price sketches out his views on the Christ myth theory in a book by the mainstream publisher Macmillian. If you'd like to use this source in Price's section, (please oh please) go right ahead. Only, I think that in that case there are some [http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan-ashe/2963641833/sizes/l/in/set-72157618354282639/ better pictures] we could use as well. (Man, N. T. Wright's ''got'' to be jealous of [http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan-ashe/2964477482/sizes/l/in/set-72157618354282639/ that mitre].) [[User:Eugeneacurry|Eugene]] ([[User talk:Eugeneacurry|talk]]) 18:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)) |
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::Eugene, if I see you disparage a living person again, I'm going to consider asking that you be topic-banned. I'm thinking in particular of your upload of an unflattering Price image, then pretending it had been released when you knew it hadn't. Plus all the rest. Time to stop, please. <font color="maroon">[[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">[[User talk:SlimVirgin|talk]]</font> <font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|contribs]]</font></sup></small> 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC) |
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⚫ | ::Dang Eugene!!! Those images just about burned out my video card. You could have least provided a warning that those images could cause hardware failure. :) [http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2530429/ This image] (for the guys) is much more...pleasing to the eyes. I'm guessing the lady editors here would like something [http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2530236/ like this]. :) |
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⚫ | ::Dang Eugene!!! Those images just about burned out my video card. You could have least provided a warning that those images could cause hardware failure. :) [http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2530429/ This image] (for the guys) is much more...pleasing to the eyes. I'm guessing the lady editors here would like something [http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2530236/ like this]. :) {{unsigned|Bill the Cat 7}} |
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== New lead section III == |
== New lead section III == |
Revision as of 17:00, 28 April 2010
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Talk:Christ myth theory/definition |
Talk:Christ myth theory/FAQ discussions |
Talk:Christ myth theory/POV tag |
Talk:Christ myth theory/pseudohistory |
Talk:Christ_myth_theory/Sources |
Should this article be categorized as "pseudohistory"?
There is currently a dispute as to whether Christ myth theory—an article about the theory that Jesus may not have existed as a historical figure—ought to be included in the "pseudohistory" category. Input would be appreciated. 01:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments
- Oppose inclusion. Categories are incapable of nuance or referencing. This theory has been expounded by some well-known academics, including the historian Bruno Bauer, the philosopher Arthur Drews, and more recently the German professor G. A. Wells. If it's being taken seriously by university academics, even if they're in a minority, it shouldn't be categorized bluntly as pseudo-history or pseudo-scholarship, no matter how much some biblical scholars may dislike it.
Wikipedia:Categorization says "Categorizations appear on pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles." SlimVirgin talk contribs 01:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support inclusion. It's certainly true that the Christ myth theory (the theory that Jesus never existed at all) has been expounded by some well-known academics. There was, as SlimVirgin notes, the notoriously anti-Semitic Bruno Bauer who found "the idea that the religion that had shaped western civilization could have been founded by a Jew... impossible... to accept" [1] There was also, as SlimVirgin also notes, Arthur Drews, a non-specialist and Nazi-sympathizer who "in his capacity as a religious anti-Semite, struggle[d] against this materialistic Semitic graft for the religious life of Aryanism".[2] And, lest we forget, there's also G. A. Wells, just as SlimVirgin notes: another non-specialist who pushed the theory "not for objective scholarly reasons, but for highly tendentious, antireligious purposes"[3]--who, by the way, has now abandoned the theory.[4] Please, before weighing-in, take a look at the FAQ on this issue; it appears as question #2. This is a slam dunk. Eugene (talk) 03:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
AdvocateSupport (per Backtable). The Chrst myth theory is a theory that goes against popular belief, this popular belief being that Jesus is real. Pseudohistory is defined as a theory or set of theories that go against what is widely accepted as a factual aspect of history. Thus, I wouldn't mind this being categorized as such. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 03:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)- Hi. Are you implying that “popular belief” and “factual aspect of history” are the same thing? Using this category implies that the dead reckoning behind one popular belief is somehow more sound than that of the dissenting view. I will not tell you what to believe or disbelieve, only what to avoid presenting as fact. ―AoV² 04:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I guess they are meant to be the same thing. I wasn't thinking about the correlation of those phrases when I was writing that. By the way, note that I said "what is widely perceived as a factual aspect of history", instead of stating "factual aspect of history" by itself. Thus, that meant that it didn't necessarily reflect my thoughts. I believe Jesus is real, but that was not a factor in my argument. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 02:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hi. Are you implying that “popular belief” and “factual aspect of history” are the same thing? Using this category implies that the dead reckoning behind one popular belief is somehow more sound than that of the dissenting view. I will not tell you what to believe or disbelieve, only what to avoid presenting as fact. ―AoV² 04:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support. If mainstream scholarship considers it false and the methods by which it is commonly investigated to be inherently unscientific/historical, it is pseudohistory. It is not just an expression of bias, it is the real scholarly opinion. NJMauthor (talk) 04:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. To call this pseudo-history is to take for granted that Jesus existed. If enough evidence existed to prove or disprove that assertion, we wouldn′t be having this conversation. The best answer I′ve found is “maybe”. ―AoV² 05:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hi. Did you read FAQ #2? Eugene (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hi AoV2, I believe to call it pseudo-history has a lot more to do with disregard for historical method by proponents. In the eyes of essentially all historians, there is clearly enough information about Jesus not just to tell us that he existed, but what he taught, the shape of his ministry and much more. --Ari (talk) 05:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hi. Did you read FAQ #2? Eugene (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Trusting sources penned a generation or two after his estimated death does play the dickens with historical method, I′ll grant you that. ―AoV² 05:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Not the place for debate, although Paul writing about meeting Jesus' brother James and apostles in Jerusalem is a lot different to the situation you would like to imply. On the point of source criticism, this links the traditions far closer than penning of the gospels, etc. Anyway, my point stands. They criticise disregard for historical method, not whatever your POV website seems to think. --Ari (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Trusting sources penned a generation or two after his estimated death does play the dickens with historical method, I′ll grant you that. ―AoV² 05:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support inclusion. As our reliable sources have made clear, mainstream scholarship considers the theory pseudohistory. This is backed up by number reputable scholars from all fields of the ideological, many of whom have gone to the extent of comparing it to other frigne pseudo-historical theories. Factors that seem to generally be noted by the mainstream towards this theory is that it is pseudo-historical for disregarding historical method. --Ari (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I agreed to the compromised to get the far worse pseudohistory removed. Having reread WP:CAT I can see that my understanding of how cats are used is out of date and this should not be used here as it is controversial and too wide sweeping. Some authors would fall under that cat but there are many others who would not. Sophia ♫ 08:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose inclusion. The life and historicity of Jesus Christ are part of academical studies and debates. Michele Bini (talk) 13:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- This article is on the Christ Myth theory, not academic debate on the life of Jesus - see historical Jesus. Your claim that the historicity of Jesus is debated in academic circles is not the case. --Ari (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Oppose For something to be included in the pseudohistory category, there should be consensus among specialists of the field that it is a false theory, which I don't think exists. --JokerXtreme (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is consensus, and there are no peer-reviewed academic works arguing the case that I am aware of. As Professor Robert E. Van Voorst notes, "The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question." (Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence.14.) I would ask the people voting here to please make themselves aware of the debate, especially before making statements on consensus. --Ari (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'll further investigate this and come back to it. --JokerXtreme (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per this[5] and Sophia. --JokerXtreme (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'll further investigate this and come back to it. --JokerXtreme (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support inclusion. Per reasons stated by Eugene and others. Personally, I don't believe that we are even taking this vote. As Eugene stated, it is a slam dunk. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, taking a vote seems to be a way to circumvent what scholars have to say in favour of editors personal opinions. --Ari (talk) 13:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it IS insanity. Apparently, there are some that think a consensus can change facts. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
James, your Oppose vote is meaningless without giving a reason. NJMauthor (talk) 00:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are far too many people looking at this subject seriously without crying holocaust (while not necessarily agreeing). One example is Clinton Bennett in In Search of Jesus. Second, most of the people crying holocaust are dyed-in-the-wool Christians. That does not necessarily make them wrong, but I hesitate to add the tag based on their characterizations. ^^James^^ (talk) 01:08, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support unless someone can make a serious, successful challenge to the sources used to support the claim in the article and in FAQ 2 that this view is considered untenable by the vast majority of historians. The article on psuedo-history doesn't seem to actually define psuedo-history, but I'm going with the assumption that it's the equivalent of psuedo-science, which I understand, and that assumption doesn't seem to be debated by anyone here.Yoshi348 (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support I spent quite some time searching through peer reviewed journals and couldn't find anything supporting the position that Jesus was a myth but found articles refuting the idea. I trawled through several websites that supported the idea but they did not cite any peer reviewed work. I'm a bit surprised by this and hope that anybody casting a vote that opposes the inclusion will be able to demonstrate that there are historians out there that genuinely consider this a valid proposition. aineolach (u · d · c) 21:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. Fringe indeed, but where are the quality sources classifying this as pseudo-history. (That has a connotation of ideologically driven fabrication and a Nazi sting to it.) Sources saying this is refuted are indeed CUP/OUP level, but the pseudo-history rhetoric and comparisons to holocaust denial are at best Westminster Fort Knox. Vesal (talk) 21:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support I don't have a lot to add, but I would point out that at this point serious scholars are starting to question the claims of the Historical Jesus school as extreme, and, as their name suggests, the Historical Jesus scholars never claimed they're wasn't a historical Jesus. Adam sk (talk) 04:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support. Assume this means this theory is pseudohistory. I seem to recall an unpleasant reference from Jewish writing that supports the fact of Jesus' existence (just not a lot of other things!). Student7 (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, a "support" means that the theory IS pseudohistory. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- See also Truth in Numbers. ―AoV² 13:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, a "support" means that the theory IS pseudohistory. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - Yes, before anyone asks, I have read FAQ 2. No, I can't come up with a comparative list of quotes, although I think that is largely because when I searched JSTOR for Christ myth it came up with over 1,000 results and I honestly don't have the time to go through them all. Having said that, there seems to be a lot of academic discussion regarding this topic, and I was able to find works by Richard Carrier and Alan Dundes supporting this theory. This is admittedly just a start, but I would refer to this as well. I don't think the theory is very robust but labelling it pseudo-history doesn't appear to be warranted. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 00:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm almost 100% sure that this issue is going to mediation some time in the near future. If you can't provide a comparative list, then 1) You really shouldn't be voting; and 2) Those who oppose the categorization will be forced to provide a comparative list or lose the mediation. It's really that simple. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 06:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's odd, I just searched "Christ myth" in JSTOR and it came up with "Results 1–25 of 156 for << ("Christ myth") >>". Most of the articles seem to be reviews of Arthur Drews or notes on having received the publication from journals written around 1910-15 and totally irrelevant works such as "The Russian scientist today", Russian Review or "The Primitivistic Aesthetic: D. H. Lawrence", The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism. I did not come across any article arguing the hypothesis in any my scroll through the 156 results. --Ari (talk) 07:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, if you search for "Christ Myth" it comes up with 154 for me, whereas if you search for Christ myth it comes up with 24,152 results. I found that searching for Christ myth actually came up with a lot more results which covered the topic of the historicity of Jesus (although that was by no means the central focus of the articles, it was still a topic of debate).
- Bill, surely if this is a minority viewpoint, we're not going to be able to come up with a list as extensive as that in FAQ 2? Otherwise it would be the majority viewpoint, and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 12:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I do not see how the results for searching the database for all entries mentioning "Christ" and "myth" necessitates your statement that "there seems to be a lot of academic discussion regarding this topic". I personally couldn't find any contemporary debate in the academic peer-review on the theory, and I do regularly follow historical Jesus works and journals. Similarly, scholars and advocates themselves are telling us this isn't the case. I would suggest some more investigation into the actual results of your search and what picture of the debate it paints. --Ari (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - The fundamental question seems to me to be whether articles in the category 'pseudohistory' should themselves actually be pseudo in nature or if the category should also include articles that are claimed by other historians as being bogus. The latter currently doesn't seem to be the practice amongst pseudo categories. If a small minority of accredited historians are claiming it and debating it with colleagues I don't see how it could be rubber stamped as being pseudo by impartial wikipedians.Chhe (talk) 05:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- It's not a "small minority of accredited historians" that are claiming/debating it. The amount of scholars in the relevant field who don't consider it fringe are virtually non-existent. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 06:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose "'Pseudohistory'" stinks of poor quality history. I see no sign of that. What I do see is ad hominem "arguments" and the assertion that, because most scholars think it likely that a Jesus of Nazareth existed, (as do I), it is therefore pseudohistory to argue the case against. This is deeply prejudiced POV pushing .Anthony (talk) 11:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose inclusion. "Pseudohistory" is a term as strong as "Pseudoscience." It utterly trivializes the subject, and rightly so if deserved. In this case, however, the existence of Jesus is a question that deserves serious attention and continuing debate. Paul provides absolutely nothing of substance about Jesus as an actual person. Everything else written about Jesus derives, originally, from sources within a cult of true believers; every historical reference to him comes from a source describing the early Christians' assertions, and only their assertions, which is not evidence of the histortical existence of Jesus (because the sources are overwhelmingly biased; one might as well write L. Ron Hubbard's biography exclusively via Scientological literature). The only strong evidence is Josephus's reference to James -- but once you strip out all the obvious propaganda added by later (Christian) writers, what's left is an ambiguous reference to a "brother," which could mean anything. Although I've concluded after many years of research that Jesus did, in fact, exist, I still consider it an open question. The enormous amount of history-creation and history-destruction by the early Church throws everything into question. Remember, the Church tried to destroy every source that disagreed with them; if not for, e.g., the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea scrolls, plus the references in anti-heretical works that were "allowed" to survive, we would know next to nothing other than what the Church, centuries ago, allowed us to know. (In other words, 70 years ago we would be debating without benefit of the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls -- think of that.) I can't believe this question is even being debated; it is NOT "pseudohistory" to confront this question. Only the religiously biased, the true faithful, could even suggest that such an inquiry is "pseudohistory" as opposed to "legitimate (if incorrect) historical inquiry." 63.17.94.91 (talk) 03:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support The so-called "Quest for the Historical Jesus" has been ongoing since the 18th century. In all of that time, with contributions by thousands of scholars and millions of pages published subject to peer-review, the consensus by all sorts of ancient historians stands: whatever else may be said about Jesus, he was at least a historical figure. The few desperate attempts to prove otherwise by almost exclusively non-experts to the contrary, the idea that Jesus is pure myth is pseudo-history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AD Messing (talk • contribs) 02:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose The Christ myth theory this article talks about is not the same as other uses of the term. Some use the term to that the Jesus of the Bible never existed--something that is mainstream (Wells current there has been called "Christ myth theory" even though he acepts there may have been a historical person involved.)--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Jesus of the Bible" as distinguished from other Jesuses, like Jesus ben Ananais. Eugene (talk) 14:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Actually more along the Jesus of the Bible being a born of a virgin miracle working as if he was a one man assembly line come back from the dead after an earthquack and darkness with every non Christian contemporary (like Philo) taking a snooze and missing everything.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Jesus of the Bible" as distinguished from other Jesuses, like Jesus ben Ananais. Eugene (talk) 14:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I reject the notion that "popular belief" is a criteria. The question is really whether this theory goes strongly against mainstream scholarship. It does not. Church scholars aside, the existence of the person is still a matter of debate and it cannot be said that the main scholars agree that all of those advocating this theory are essentially crackpots (though there are crackpots who advocate it as well). --Mcorazao (talk) 18:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support The article itself include amble references to show it t be categorized as a WP:Fringe theories. See Christ myth theory#notes #8-23.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]
“ | I think that there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don't know of any historians today, who doubt the existence of Jesus... So I think that question can be put to rest. | ” |
- The fact that SlimVirgin can only name one historian, and that historian who died more than 130 years ago, seem a very clear sign that this history article should (also) be in the Category:Pseudohistory, a subcategory of Category:Fringe theory. Since we don't do both-- to be clear-- we need only place in Category:Fringe theory if it is (somehow) voted out of Category:Pseudohistory. Please show us any living historian, working as a historian who supports this idea (any "historian" earning money from any professional source, other than authoring books on this one fringe therory subject). şṗøʀĸɕäɾłäů∂ɛ:τᴀʟĸ 18:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose categorization. There is a lot of reason to believe Christ did exist, but I have yet to hear of anyone providing direct evidence corroborating this. As such I do not think it can be classified as pseudohistory and doing so would cause considerable damage to the neutrality of this article. You cannot prove a negative, but if you cannot prove the positive then it is perfectly reasonable to question it. While this is a fringe theory it can not be fairly considered a false or erroneous one.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. The fact that a theory (historical hypothesis) is found probable by few scholars does not make the theory pseudohistory. Since nobody has provided a scholarly demonstration that e.g. the works by Wells, Doherty, Price are based on fatal methodological and/or factual blunders, there is no basis for labelling the theory (as such) pseudohistory. (Additional remark: Derogatory comments by themselves do not make the theory pseudohistory either. These remarks can, e.g., mean that we are encountering an example of a situation described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism [... Those historians who work within the existing establishment and who have a body of existing work from which they claim authority, often have the most to gain by maintaining the status quo. This can be called an accepted paradigm, which in some circles or societies takes the form of a denunciative stance towards revisionism of any kind...]. WP editors have no authority to judge this situation, and thus have no basis for using the pseudohistory label.)Jelamkorj (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- If "WP editors have no authority to judge this situation", then why are you, as a WP editor, judging it? Certainly, given your hesitation to judge, we should defer to reliable sources... such as the following:
- "Along with the scholarly and popular works, there is a good deal of pseudoscholarship on Jesus that finds its way into print. During the last two centuries more than a hundred books and articles have denied the historical existence of Jesus."
- Michael James McClymond (professor at Saint Louis University), Familiar Stranger: An Introduction to Jesus of Nazareth, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2004, p. 23
- "The pseudoscholarship of the early twentieth century calling in question the historical reality of Jesus was an ingenuous attempt to argue a preconceived position."
- Gerard Stephen Sloyan (professor at Temple University), The Crucifixion of Jesus: History, Myth, Faith, Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1995, p. 9
- And, finally, "An extreme instance of pseudo-history of this kind is the “explanation” of the whole story of Jesus as a myth."
- Emil Brunner (late professor at the University of Zurich), The Mediator: A Study of the Central Doctrine of the Christian Faith, Cambridge: Lutterworth Press, 2002, p. 164 Eugene (talk) 20:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- You can call any theory you don't like pseudo-history. It does not make it so.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- If "WP editors have no authority to judge this situation", then why are you, as a WP editor, judging it? Certainly, given your hesitation to judge, we should defer to reliable sources... such as the following:
- That's certainly true. But if reliable sources say that it is indeed pseudo-history, then shouldn't that be seriously considered for inclusion in a Wikipedia article? I mean, virtually no scholar who has has evaluated the CMT has concluded that it is even being plausible, let alone likely. Shouldn't the casual reader be made aware of this fact? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 23:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Verifiability is not the same as neutrality.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's certainly true. But if reliable sources say that it is indeed pseudo-history, then shouldn't that be seriously considered for inclusion in a Wikipedia article? I mean, virtually no scholar who has has evaluated the CMT has concluded that it is even being plausible, let alone likely. Shouldn't the casual reader be made aware of this fact? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 23:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
I don't care about what categories appear in this article. As far as I can tell the category system exists to cause disputes among Wikipedia editors rather than to help Wikipedia readers. However, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory, and as such is pseudohistory/scholarship. G.A. Wells is a bona fide academic, sure, but the fact that he is a scholar of German rather than of early Christianity is relevant. Scholars in fields that deal with early Christianity (religious studies, ancient history, and so on) think this theory is a fringe theory; many of the theory's current advocates acknowledge that it's rejected by mainstream academia. Bruno Bauer and Arthur Drews were also bona fide academics (well, Bauer was until he lost his university post because of his views on Jesus)--but Bauer was 19th century and Drews early 20th century. The categorization is about how the theory is perceived now, not in 1852 or 1922. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is also Robert M. Price, a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, with two doctorates in theology. He's doesn't work in a maintream university, but he's nevertheless regarded as a specialist in this area by those who do. That he's a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, and was invited to contribute to The Historical Jesus: Five Views (2009), along with Luke Timothy Johnson, John Dominic Crossan, James Dunn, and Darrell Bock, are both strong indications of that, in my view. I see that both of these points about Price have been removed from the article by Eugeneacurry. [6] SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- By the way, I agree strongly with your point about categories and disputes. The main purpose of them often seems to be as a weapon against people and ideas that someone doesn't like. It's time we tried to sort it out as a project.SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it's exactly accurate to say that Robert M. Price doesn't work at a mainstream university. The Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary is an unaccredited institution; it's apparently not even notable enough for a Wikipedia article, and it seems to pop up on Google exclusively for its association with Price. [7] This is in fact a great indication that we're dealing with a fringe theory: its advocates come from outside the relevant academic fields (Wells) or teach at unaccredited unknown institutions. Sure, Price is a notable figure and his views should be covered in this article, but he should not be taken as an indication that the theory has become mainstream within religious studies. It's nice that he was invited to contribute to The Historical Jesus: Five Views, but this is easily seen as a cynical attempt to boost sales by including a "controversial" view in the book; if you read the text, the other contributors are usually polite to Price, but it's clear that some of them are thinking, "Why do I have to respond to this guy?" Again, he is a notable figure, it's worth including him in the article, his membership in the Jesus seminar and his appearance in the book should be noted in the article. But none of this is an indication that Price's views are mainstream, or even representative of a significant minority opinion within religious studies. He's an oddball.
- I would like to see the community tackle the issue of categories, but I'm not optimistic that it's possible. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm minded to try it, but it's not an area I've ever involved myself in, so I'd need to read up on previous attempts. We've had similar problems with editors adding the "pseudoscience" category to anything they don't understand or like. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you said: "If it's being taken seriously by university academics, even if they're in a minority, it shouldn't be categorized bluntly as pseudo-history or pseudo-scholarship". Does that then mean that you oppose the pseudohistory cat on the holocaust denial page because holocaust denial is "taken seriously" (i.e. advocated) by a "minority" of "university academics" like Arthur Butz and Robert Faurisson? (I'm not surprised to see SlimVirgin hasn't responded to this.)Eugene (talk) 06:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
The problems you discuss here are tied to the idiosyncratic definition of article scope. The owner of this article, Eugeneacurry, insists on treating a loosely connected series of opinions on the "nonhistoricity of Christ" as a single topic, but separate from the debate on the historicity of Christ in general. This is WP:SYNTH to begin with, and you end up with an article that is cobbled together from partly pseudo-scholarhsip, partly fringe scholarship and partly bona fide but outdated scholarship. This problem will not go away, nor will this article ever be stable, before the owner condescends to look into its relation to the articles with overlapping scope and try to sort the issues between these articles as a group instead of obsessing over getting an "FA" star for this particular page. --dab (𒁳) 10:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- It will amaze you dab but I think you are totally correct! Sophia ♫ 10:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that this seems to be a case of SYN. People are being lumped together in a way that's not obviously legitimate. SlimVirgin talk contribs 10:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, I disagree with this. These authors have been discussed together as a distinct line of thought about the historical Jesus. There are extensive discussions about this in the talk page archives. See this post, in particular, [8], which names Schweitzer, Goguel, Weaver, and van Voorst as scholars who have given substantial discussion to the CMT. There's no shortage of academic sources that discuss this idea and who treat authors like Bauer, Drews, and G.A. Wells together. The scope of other articles about Jesus might be a problem, but this article has an easily defined scope, and we can follow the lead of other sources (such as the ones I just named) in constructing the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Akhilleus. I'm starting to wonder if we are all reading the same article. :) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- well, I agree with Akhilleus to a certain point. This article is certainly much better than it used to be, and it actually manages to paint a coherent picture of the history of the idea. But I maintain my point that the above discussion on whether this is "pseudohistory" is symptomatic: it is and it isn't. It is an account of a bit of perfectly respectable historical scholarship paired with a discussion of a number of "popular" authors of more recent years who can be considered fringe, or even "pseudo". This remains a problem. It doesn't mean that we need to tear down the entire article, but it does mean that much better integration in our disparate "Jesus and history" articles, each with their own separate history of controversy, is desperately needed.
- in recognition of the progress that has been made, you will note that I am no longer calling to split this up among other articles (because it is now one of the better articles we have on this), but there are remaining WP:DUE issues. Especially, since this is about historical scholarship now discredited, the Quest for the historical Jesus article is very relevant, and content needs to be balanced between the two articles. --dab (𒁳) 14:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Akhilleus. I'm starting to wonder if we are all reading the same article. :) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Ok, as I see the scientific consensus is significantly in favor of the historic existence of Jesus. But it's not as if the sceptics' theory is fringe. It's still a scientific theory of a minority, pretty much in the same way theories about global warming not happening or not being man made, which are adopted by a 3% of scientists are not considered fringe. List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming: this article is not in any "pseudo" category. --JokerXtreme (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is no scientific consensus on this as it does not conform to the scientific method. If it did the uncertainties of extrapolating back from anonymous data would be acknowledged. This is fringe but a read of WP:CAT makes it clear we should keep the cats on this page as simple as possible. Sophia ♫ 15:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Bill, it's best to leave threaded discussion out of the comments section, so that people responding to the RfC are free to comment without being confronted. Would you mind confining your comments to this section, please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I notice that WP:FRINGE clearly and helpfully indicates what sort of theories can be categorized as "pseudoscience". It lists four different levels of fringiness (1. Obviously bogus ideas; 2. Generally considered pseudoscience; 3. Theories with a substantial and respectable following; 4. Alternative theoretical formulations) and indicates that articles which detail theories that are either #1 or #2 can legitimately be categorized as "pseudoscience". "2. Generally considered pseudoscience" says this: "Ideas which have a following, such as astrology and the subconscious, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may also be described as pseudoscience if reliable sources concur." Now I understand that this isn't a scientific topic, but no one is trying to categorize the topic "pseudoscience". But I think that it's reasonable to apply the same basic standards when considering whether it's appropriate to categorize an article as "pseudo-history". So, if we apply the above guideline, matatis mutandis, to this article, the question is whether the Chris myth theory qualifies on the following. #2. Generally considered pseudo-history: Ideas which have a following... but which are generally considered pseudo-history by the historical community may also be described as pseudo-history if reliable sources concur." Given the sources listed in FAQ #2, it's very clear that the "historical community" utterly rejects this theory and there are sources that explicitly label this "pseudo-history". With all this in mind, labeling the CMT "pseudo-history" should not be controversial. Remember, this is a question of sources and policy, not the gut feelings of Wikipedia editors. Eugene (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
RfC: Should the lead contain a dissenting voice?
The Christ myth theory is the argument that Jesus did not exist as an historical figure. This is a small-minority view within academia. Some Wikipedians and scholars say it is a fringe view. There is therefore a disagreement as to whether the lead should contain a dissenting voice, and if so, what it should say. Should the lead contain the following sentence? "The philosopher Michael Martin of Boston University writes that, while the historicity of Jesus is taken for granted by Christians and assumed by the majority of non-Christians and anti-Christians—and anyone arguing against it may be seen as a crank—a strong prima facie case can be constructed that challenges it." The source is Martin's The Case Against Christianity 1991, pp. 36–37. SlimVirgin talk contribs 04:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments
- Support inclusion. I thought this had already been settled, but the sentence keeps being removed, or changed so that it says something different, so I have posted an RfC. This sentence is a succinct summary of Martin's view. The lead needs a dissenting voice per NPOV, and Martin is a mainstream and well-known philosopher of religion who has written about this issue specifically. SlimVirgin talk contribs 04:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I have removed the "crank" bit, this does not belong into scientific discourse. For the remainder, NPOV would be much better served by the first two sentences from the Reception section, instead of a particular "voice". Paradoctor (talk) 05:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Should someone want any further comment from me with respect to this page, you'll have to notify me, as I'm de-watchlisting it as of now. Paradoctor (talk) 11:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose above form. I have nothing against the lead including a dissenting voice, but one by an actual biblical scholar/historian and not a non-expert such as Martin. If we are to use a non-expert, his personal amateur opinion should be noted as that. You push the strange point that we cannot use leading authorities within the relevant field because they identify as Christian, but a book entitled The Case Against Christianity by a non-expert is to be granted the highest level of authority. Where else would this be the case? --Ari (talk) 06:10, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I can live with Martin in the lead as a part of a compromise, but I think it would be better to defer his views until a relevant section in the body. As others have said, Martin is not an expert in the field. Also, Martin himself grants that elements of the Christ myth theory may seem "ad hoc and arbitrary" upon examination (The Case Against Christianity, p. 55) and he opts to "not rely on it" for the bulk of his attempted refutation of Christianity (The Case Against Christianity, p. 67). Eugene (talk) 06:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the wording of the RfC is inaccurate. This article, which should be understood as a subarticle of historical Jesus, is about a dissenting view. As such, Bauer, Drews, Robertson, W.B. Smith, G.A. Wells, Robert M. Price, and other advocates listed in the lead all hold (or held) views that dissent with the mainstream. The lead contains plenty of dissenting voices. Now, I proposed a compromise wording that includes a sentence with Martin, and I'm willing to stick to that compromise, but I've said all along that I would prefer not having Martin in the lead. This is not because I want to squash dissent (the whole article is about dissent, after all), but because the secondary sources I've read about this theory do not name Martin as a prominent figure in its history--whereas they consistently name Bauer, Drews, Robertson, W.B. Smith, and G.A. Wells as important figures. If I could rewrite the lead to my satisfaction, I would remove Martin from there and instead find a quote from G.A. Wells to the effect that a strong case can be made for Jesus' ahistoricity. Wells is an academic too, and I'm sure he says something like this in one of his works; and unlike Martin, there are many secondary sources who mention Wells as a prominent advocate of the theory. (This wouldn't mean eliminating Martin from the article entirely, just from the lead.) --Akhilleus (talk) 18:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Responding to the RfC, I note that the Michael Martin sentence is quite a good summary of one overall position. On the other hand, it does not seem to me that it adds anything to what is already a good lead, and in fact its presence makes the lead slightly more clumsy. Per Akhilleus I suggest - though not strongly - removing Martin's sentence from the lead. Per Eugeneacurry it may well fit perfectly somewhere else in the article. I hope this outside opinion helps. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose direct mention of particular philosopher in lede. His view, surely shared by others, can be summarized into the lede, but directly quoting or directly attributing him in the lede seems WP:UNDUE. Direct quote and explicit attribution in the article's body would be fine. ...comments? ~BFizz 08:00, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Support more or less. Perhaps more tersely summarized in the lead (without his name, commenting there that name is used later or whatever) He is notable which seems to suggest his name could or should be used in the text somewhere.
- Oppose per Ari. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose this sentence's inclusion in the lede. In fact, I'm seeing a few objectionable sentences. We should avoid direct quotes when possible, especially those not put in quotations, in an article period and certainly in the lede. There seems to already be enough neutral material covering both sides of the issue in the lede, without these direct quotes.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose specific mention of subject in lead, as per WP:UNDUE, although no objections to discussion opposing opinions in general in the lead, with possible expansion of data later in the article. John Carter (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
Eugene, you agreed to the lead just two days ago when Akhilleus suggested it. What happened? SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agreed to Martin in the lead as a part of compromise. Like I said above, I can live with such a compromise. But I made it clear from the beginning that I'd rather not have him in the lead. As you opened a RfC on that particular issue, though, I thought I should indicate my position. Eugene (talk) 07:04, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're illustrating why this article is unlikely to stabilize. You opposed including the sentence; Akhilleus suggested a different placement for it; you agreed to that compromise in an informal RfC two days ago on this page, as did several others. And now for no reason, you withdraw the agreement even though nothing has changed between then and now. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 08:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
So the votes seem to be against the current Martin sentence in the lead. I suggest we remove it until we reach a compromise, or find a far better quote by an actual expert. --Ari (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I feel that the Martin sentence adds nothing to the lead, and the lead would happily manage without it. I don't see what the fuss is about. The lead needs to mention (briefly) what the Myth actually says and when it started, and that mainstream scholarship supports the existence of a historical Jesus - although not necessarily the divine character on which the modern Christian religion is based. Anything else in the lead is superfluous, and should rather be incorporated into the body of the article. Surely the Martin sentence could be included lower down? Wdford (talk) 10:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with your point (which you have also made elsewhere) that the lead here is getting a bit big. I have a strong suspicion that the militant effort in including the Martin quote has a lot more to do with POV pushing in a clear attempt to undercut mainstream scholarship. A dissenting voice is fine but we should not over do it, especially in a manner that gives undue weight.
- As a historical article I do not see the need to mention the divinity of Jesus in the lead as it not a testable historical hypothesis. The last thing this article needs is a theological or philosophical debate on the incarnation. --Ari (talk) 10:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- The lead needs something from an academic, preferably not one of the principle players but an academic giving an overview, who makes clear that a case can be made for this theory. That is required per NPOV. I have no problem shortening it or moving it elsewhere in the lead (its current position was not my suggestion), but it needs to be there in some form, or replaced by an equivalent. SlimVirgin talk contribs 11:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think that Hector Avalos would be better than Martin per the specialization concerns mentioned by others. He's said something about Doherty's views being "plausible" in The End of Biblical Studies. I'd still oppose inclusion in the lead on the basis of WP:UNDUE, though. Eugene (talk) 04:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- It would be better to have a secular academic source in the lead from a mainstream university. And including an alternative voice in the lead is NPOV 101. SlimVirgin talk contribs 04:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you didn't actually read Avalos' page. He's about as secular as they come and he teaches at Iowa State University. As for the NPOV argument, I think we understand this differently, but let's just let the RfC do its work. Eugene (talk) 04:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
It looks like removing the sentence is the solution. The only argument I can see in favour of keeping the opinion of Martin is that a dissenting voice is needed. As there is a dissenting voice, there is no reason for every amateur to give their 2cents in the lead. This objection has been raised on numerous places on the discussion page by various editors. In two weeks, this should be one of the first things to go . --Ari (talk) 06:52, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- What does the "in two weeks" refer to, Ari? Anthony (talk) 07:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC) Belay that. I just got down to the bottom of the page. Anthony (talk) 07:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
When do these 2 RfCs finally wrap up? Eugene (talk) 05:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Wells and Price sections
Robert Price
Eugene, could you explain why you removed that Price is a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, that he contributed to The Historical Jesus: Five Views (2009) with Luke Timothy Johnson, John Dominic Crossan, James Dunn, and Darrell Bock, and that he said in 2009 Jesus may have existed but "unless someone discovers his diary or his skeleton, we'll never know." And why you reverted my edit to the alt text (which doesn't adhere to what's currently regarded as appropriate)? [9] SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I removed the material on Price's affiliation with the Jesus Seminar as it's clear you're trying to make him look impressive, which is WP:DUNE here. No other person mentioned in the article has a mini-CV attached to their name, why should Price? As for The Historical Jesus: Five Views, I don't know what you're talking about; his section still refers to his involvement in the book. The skeleton quote isn't a big deal as far as I'm concerned, but it seems redundant given that the section already speaks of "complete agnosticism regarding Jesus' historicity". As for the alt-text, WP:ALT calls for a graphical description of the image in question for blind people using text readers, not some unhelpful note calling redundant atttention to the caption which merely states "Robert M. Price". Eugene (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to make him look impressive. I'm just trying to describe who he is to counter your efforts to do him down. These have included some questionable edits by you to his article, and to the dab page, even removing that he's a theologian. We need to offer the facts here, not try to persuade. As for the alt, see WP:ALT please; the old guideline is no more, and what you wrote was POV. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're tilting at windmills here. I haven't removed "theologian" from before Price's name in the current version of the article. The alt text for Price's picture ("An older man with a full beard grimacing playfully at the viewer") doesn't stike me as POV; what precisely do you object to as biased? Based on WP:ALT's comment regarding the Queen of England's picture it seems that you're right about the current alt text being inappropriate, but that then seems to be true of almost all the pictures in the article, so why are you objecting to Price's specifically? To show that I'm not just being obstinate, I'll put an allusion to Price's work with the Jesus Seminar into his section that doesn't look like a mini-CV. Eugene (talk) 05:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Last month you removed that Price was a theologian from the dab page, [10] and replaced it with "skeptic," with no indication of what that meant. In November [11] you added this to his article: "It should be noted though that Price is often viewed as sub-academic, the Society of Biblical Literature's Review of Biblical Literature describing his work as 'not a serious discussion of the issues' so much as 'an extremely bitter rant.'"[17]
- "It should be noted though" is an example of language that is really never acceptable in articles, not to mention "sub-academic". It looks as though you're trying to undermine him on several pages. SlimVirgin talk contribs 07:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Price
Saying Price thinks we shouldn't be swayed by an academic majority is self-evident; if he didn't feel this way he wouldn't support the CMT. As such material is self-evident it doesn't really add to the article. I do recall, however, that Price once said something like (paraphrasing) "We shouldn't be swayed by the academic majority on the New Testament because they're all biased Christians." That would be an interesting addition to the article but someone would have to track down the source. I think he said it in the context of a debate with William Lane Craig, but I'm not entirely sure. Eugene (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I am going to restore the changes I made to the Price section. Please do not remove them again. If you want to expand that section, fine, but do not keep undoing other people's work. SlimVirgin talk contribs 15:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- And I disagree with yours, Eugene, so there isn't consensus for your version either. Therefore we should both be able to write that section, each expanding on the work of the other, not undoing it. That's how WP writing usually works. And it needs to be expanded more, because Price is a key player. SlimVirgin talk contribs 15:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Yet another revert
Bill has reverted me again. [12] Could you say what was wrong with the edit, please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that Bill has swung in, reverted quite a bit of work, then disappeared again, leaving no explanation. Reverting is bad enough, especially after all the requests not to, but reverting then going offline immediately is completely unacceptable. As I asked earlier, what can be done about this? SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not Bill, but I'll venture a few guesses. First, your edit to Wells' section obscured the fact that his post-1999 position was a drastic revision of his earlier views: "In The Jesus Myth (1999), Wells altered his position, making the case that there were two distinct figures of Jesus" --> "In The Jesus Myth (1999), Wells argues that there were two distinct figures of Jesus". Second, saying "Wells bases his arguments on the views of Christian biblical scholars, who acknowledge that the gospels were written between 40 and 80 years after Jesus's death by authors who had no personal knowledge of him" is misleading. Most scholars don't think that the gospels are completely cut off from eye-witness testimony; granted, the mainstream view is a bit convoluted at times and can't be accurately defined as gospels=eye-witness accounts, but it's more sophisticated than your text implied. Third, when you write concerning the epistles that "There is no information in them about Jesus's parents, place of birth, teachings, trial, or crucifixion", you don't make it clear that this is Wells' ideosyncratic view as opposed to the views of the aforementioned "Christian scholars".
- As for your changes to Price, I think they're mostly fine. My only concern is about defining the Jesus Seminar in this article and using the Time article to source it. Since the Jesus Seminar is already wikilinked I don't think it really needs a further explanation. And even if it did need further explantion, there's no need for a ref; the nature of the Jesus Seminar is non-controversial. Please remove those two points. (unless you feel like saying the SBL is a group of 8000+ "writers and scholars")Eugene (talk) 02:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not going to speak for Bill, but I noticed two issues with your edit. First, the phrasing "Wells bases his arguments on the views of Christian biblical scholars..." is ambiguous; either it implies that the bliblical scholars in question are Christians, in which case the phrase is incorrect, or it is meant to point out that Wells relies on scholars who study the Christian bible (rather than the Hebrew) in which case it's better to phrase it as "New Testament scholars." Second, I share Eugene's concern that your edit minimizes Wells' shift in views.
- I agree, though, that reverting without explanation on the talk page is not best practice. Discussion before reverting is better, and we've had some success already in presenting alternative text on the talk page and discussing it; it might be good to pursue this approach in the future. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, look, if this continues I'm going to request a review of the GA status. The article is incomplete, not well written, slanted, the FAQ is absurd, the talk page archives are full of editors expressing the same concerns, yet the article seems to be under the control of Bill, who has made only 107 edits to articles (653 overall) [13] and Eugene who has made only 673 edits to articles (1,576 overall), [14] neither of whom are familiar with the policies. Yet somehow they've managed to assume almost complete ownership of the page. I don't mind people taking control of pages to improve them if they know what they're doing; a degree of OWNership's inevitable if you want to get to FAC. But controlling to suppress isn't on.
- Akhilleus, I'll change the Christian biblical scholar issue. What would you suggest about expressing Wells's shift in views? I'm wondering how we could make it any clearer. He refers to it. A biblical scholar refers to it. And Price refers to it. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting, now you imply that I'm just an inexperienced editor with no right to be taken seriously. What part of WP:Civility and WP:AGF is that under? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Eugene is correct. SV, if you expect a consensus (on this issue or anything else), then you must make it clear in your edits that it's the proponents of the CMT who are making the claim, not mainstream scholarship, rather than seeking to insinuate "what everyone knows". It's the only way to avoid contentiousness. You're obviously are not an expert on these matters, as I'm not an expert, but I know a misrepresentation of mainstream scholarship when I see it. And when you misrepresent mainstream scholarship, you have to expect a reversion pending discussion. If you are truly concerned with reaching a consensus, please do not make edits that are obviously POV until you explain, with supporting citations, why they are not. There are enough disagreements regarding this article as it is.
- Akhilleus, I don't normally revert edits without a full explanation, but SV's edit was patently problematic, because it misrepresents current mainstream scholarship, and for reasons that both you and Eugene mentioned. Also, as I mentioned above, neither SV nor I are experts, and given the contentiousness of edits recently, I think that if we are to reach a consensus on all of the issues, then no one should make edits that are not plainly obvious (such as we are currently living in the year 2010). Do you think that's fair? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Bill, I'd appreciate a detailed explanation of what was so wrong with my edit that you needed to revert it entirely, and not make adjustments. I noticed you weren't online at the time, but suddenly came online only to make that one revert, then went offline ahead. Presumably no one asked you to make that revert for them, so you must have had your own reasons. Could you outline them for me please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 20:48, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Question for Bill
Bill, with respect, you're being somewhat rude in ignoring this question. Last night I expanded the Wells section. You were offline. You suddenly reappeared, reverted the whole section, then went offline again without explanation. I've asked you roughly four times what your objections were. I'm not asking Akhilleus or Eugene (and their points would not have required a revert anyway), I'm asking you. Presumably no one asked you to make that revert for them, so you must have had your own reasons. Could you outline them please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- You seem anxious to get a response from me (which I take as a complement), but as I've said repeatedly, let's tackle the issues in an orderly manner. We will all have a chance to discuss our concerns and I sincerely want your opinion and support. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is an orderly manner. You came online specifically to revert me, then disappeared again. It wasted a lot of my time, expanding the section, seeing the revert, asking why, asking again, trying to work it out for myself. It looked as though someone had asked you to do it, though I'm assuming good faith and that you had your own reasons. I need to hear what they are, or I can't accommodate them. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- I came online specifically to revert you? Do you have any way of proving that you can read minds? If not, then I suggest you take a break from editing. The stress seems to be causing you to make irrational statements against a person who is trying to edit in good faith. Sure, we disagree on how to proceed here, but is that a reason to belittle another editor? What's next? Are you going to accuse me of anti-semitism, torturing small animals, nuns and orphans, and then top it off with a charge of pedophilia? Like I said, perhaps you should take some time off. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Bill, SlimVirgin asked you several times for the reasons of your reverts. Is it not better to give the reasons, instead of this tirade you made with an (ironic?) comment that personal attacks must stop? SlimVirgin, I wish you good luck with your efforts to improve this article (though I personally doubt you can succeed).Jelamkorj (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Jelamkorj, I did give a reason in the label, which apparently was ignored or simply missed. In any case, her comment that I came specifically to revert her edits was WP:Uncivil, especially since I expressed a sincere desire to work with her (see my first comment above). At any rate, if she wants to clarify her concerns, she can use my talk page. I mean, there have been so many edits since the reversion in question, that it doesn't mean anything anymore. That's my $0.02. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Wells, Price, and Doherty
I notice that Doherty now has his own section. Like I said, I think it would be helpful to have some sort of consensus criteria for this amount of notability within the article.
More importantly though, I notice that the Wells and Price sections have been altered over and over and over again recently. Some of the changes aren't particularly problematic (I liked my wording better... but who doesn't feel that way about their own edits?), but I notice that SlimVirgin has consistently removed what I think is a very helpful and very noncontroversial element of wells second paragraph. Namely, she continues to remove the initial reference to the fact that Wells 1999 book was a shift in his views. True, that material follows, but it seems a bit awkward. Why the intransigence on this point? Eugene (talk) 05:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Because you want over-emphasize it. That's because you've started off with too black-and-white a view of this theory, with people either wholly within it, or wholly outside it. So when Wells sneezed in the direction of a historical Jesus, he was thrown out of the basket. But then Price isn't in it either, in your view. It's not clear that anyone serious is really, which is why I've been arguing that the article as it stood until recently was almost a straw-man position. SlimVirgin talk contribs 05:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Wells has a recent book, Cutting Jesus Down to Size: What Higher Criticism Has Achieved and Where It Leaves Christianity (Open Court, 2009). I can't find any snippets online and can't see detailed reviews, but what little I've found suggests that he comments upon how he's changed his position over time. It might be good to track down this book and get things straight from the source's mouth (or pen, or keyboard, or whatever). I'll try to do that soon, but if anyone else wants to get the book, I think that might be a good idea. Also, SlimVirgin, the reason why Wells has been "thrown out of the basket" is because we have secondary sources (Van Voorst, for one), describing his acknowledgement of a minimal historical Jesus as an abandonment of the theory... --Akhilleus (talk) 23:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- "So when Wells sneezed in the direction of a historical Jesus, he was thrown out of the basket. But then Price isn't in it either, in your view. It's not clear that anyone serious is really..." Well, I'd quibble over Price, but how is this a failing of the article? There are all sorts of theories that were once seriously considered by academics and then abandoned and are still peddled only by cranks and amatuers. Powell's quote (which has now been suppressed in direct contravention of WP:CENSOR) indicates that the CMT falls into exactly this category: there used to be meaningful academic support, now it's a total laughing-stock. Why should we try to force the theory to be something it isn't so as to artificially inflate it's modern academic credibility? Eugene (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
(Remove indent)That doesn't really capture the CMT either. Here are the counterexample that shows the CMT is not exclusively the "no Jesus ever existed at all" point:
(1) "Or, alternatively, they seized on the reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name and arbitrarily attached the "Cult-myth" to him." Dodd, C.H. (1938) History and the Gospel under the heading Christ Myth Theory Manchester University Press pg 17
(2) "This view hold that the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology, possessing no more substantial claims to historical fact than the old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes,..."[Bromiley (1082 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: E-J]. The first paragraph of the related material tells us about the Christ Myth theory, second tells us what it is (using story of), third line talks about the supposed parallels, and the fourth uses Apollonius of Tyana while using Lucian as an example, and the final sentence gives us the examples of Attis, Adonis, Osiris and Mithras. The next paragraph mentions ONE work by Wells and two counterpoints to his arguments. The paragraph after that starts "These examples of the Christ-myth idea..." please note the plural. The paragraph after that talks has the lead in Bertrand Russel leave the question open and the very next sentance says "This negative attitude is shared by P. Graham, The Jesus Hoax (1974)" NOWHERE in any of this are any of the greats (Bruno Bauer, Arthur Drews, J. M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, etc) of the non historical concept mentioned. What we get instead is, in order, are Lucian, Wells, and Bertrand Russel. Hardly a cross section of the non historical idea as Akhilleus has tried to claim in the past. Troy and Vinland are also part "old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes". Last time I check Troy and Vinland (ie North America) existed.
(3) "The theory that Jesus Christ was not a historical character, and that the Gospel records of his life are mainly, if not entirely, of mythological origin." Encyclopaedia of Religion and Religions (1951) by Pike, Royston
(4) "At first glance, the "Jesus-myth" seems to be a stroke of genius: To eliminate Christianity and any possibility of it being true, just eliminate the founder! The idea was first significantly publicized by a 19th-century German scholar named Bruno Bauer. Following Bauer, there were a few other supporters: Couchoud, Gurev, Augstein [Chars.JesJud 97-8]. Today the active believer is most likely to have waved in their faces one of four supporters of this thesis: The turn-of-the-century writer Arthur Drews; the myth-thesis' most prominent and prolific supporter, G. A. Wells, who has published five books on the subject; Earl Doherty, or Acharya S. Each of these writers takes slightly different approaches, but they all agree that a person named Jesus did not exist (or, Wells seems to have taken a view now that Jesus may have existed, but may as well not have)." Wells, G.A. "A Reply to J. P. Holding's "Shattering" of My Views on Jesus and an Examination of the Early Pagan and Jewish References to Jesus" (2000) Please note this post dates Jesus Myth which Wells himself accepted a possible historical person being involved but few if any of the Gospel accounts were historical.
(5) "The year 1999 saw the publication of at least five books which concluded that the Gospel Jesus did not exist. One of these was the latest book (The Jesus Myth) by G. A. Wells, the current and longstanding doyen of modern Jesus mythicists." Doherty "JESUS — ONE HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE CHRIST by Alvar Ellegard"
(6) "The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory" Walsh, George (1998) "The Role of Religion in History", New Brunswick: Transaction, , p. 58 No WP:RS explanation of how the first part does not fall under Wells' current mythic Paul Jesus + Historical teacher = Gospel Jesus has been provided nor how Meed's 100 BC Jesus does not fit the second part.
(7) "When Bertrand Russell and Lowes Dickinson toyed with the Christ-myth theory and alternatively suggested that, even if Christ were a historic person, the gospels give us no reliable information about him, they were not representing the direction and outcome of historical inquiry into Christian origins." Wood, Herbert George (1955) Belief and Unbelief since 1850 I asked again if the Christ-myth theory is an either/or than how do you toy with it?! Never mind the "the gospels give us no reliable information" could fit within Pike's and Dodd's definitions but are excluded by those of Farmer, Horbury, and Wiseman.
As for Jesus Myth theory I could only find one very obscure scholarly paper that even used the term and even it used it in the form "Jesus Myth" theory; hardly enough to build an article around. As I pointed out many years the phrase "Jesus Myth" is more of a train wreck than "Christ Myth" being used as much for the myth attached to the man as the idea that the man or the story about him are a myth. John Remsburg whose list in The Christ (retitled the Christ Myth is often cited by non scholars in books and blogs (a fact removed from this page) stated in the same work "While all Freethinkers are agreed that the Christ of the New Testament is a myth they are not, as we have seen, and perhaps never will be, fully agreed as to the nature of this myth. Some believe that he is a historical myth; others that he is a pure myth. Some believe that Jesus, a real person, was the germ of this Christ whom subsequent generations gradually evolved; others contend that the man Jesus, as well as the Christ, is wholly a creation of the human imagination. After carefully weighing the evidence and arguments in support of each hypothesis the writer, while refraining from expressing a dogmatic affirmation regarding either, is compelled to accept the former as the more probable."--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Since this is the thousandth time that you've been corrected on these, I'm not going to spend much time on this. But for the sake of others, here we go:
- 1: Can you quote where Dodd uses the phrase "the Christ myth theory is...", or something to that effect? (We both know you can't.)
- 2: Bromiley's text is being chopped up and presented in self-serving ways here. It's available for viewing online; anyone who actually reads the source can see through your deception.
- 3: Not much of a difference from what's in the FAQ.
- 4: Wells himself disclaims the title "mythicist" later on in that very article. CORRECTION: Whoops, my mistake; I made the age-old blunder of trusting Bruce when he quotes sources. #4 is not, as BruceGrubb labels it, from "A Reply to J. P. Holding's "Shattering" of My Views on Jesus and an Examination of the Early Pagan and Jewish References to Jesus", G. A. Wells' 2000 essay. Rather, it is from material written by J. P. Holding himself. As Holding is not a RS on Wells' views, this quote is even less relevant to the discussion at hand. I hope that those who are tempted to take BruceGrubb's complaints about "ambiguous sources" seriously take this example to heart; it is a routine occurance. Eugene (talk) 13:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- 5: Doherty is not a RS for anyone's views but his own; he cannot be used to define Wells.
- 6: Again, Wells explicitly distances himself from the term "mythicist" in his 2000 essay; just like Doherty, BruceGrubb is not a RS for defining Wells views.
- 7: "Bertrand Russell and Lowes Dickinson toyed with the Christ-myth theory and alternatively suggested that, even if Christ were a historic person, the gospels give us no reliable information about him"
- QED. Eugene (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- 1) Cleaver word games to get out from the fact a university press says the definition is something else.
- 2) I provided a direct link Bromiley's text do how this is chopped up is beyond me.
- 3) Ignoring the actual point.
- 4) Actually if you read it in a NPOV way Wells disclaims "mythicist" as Holding defines it
- 5) Price says basically the same thing on the very back of Can We Trust the New Testament?
- 6) Again read from a NPOV the 2000 is only disclaiming "mythicist" as Holding defines it
- 7) Again if the Christ-myth theory either or how can you toy with it?
- 8) "I especially wanted to explain late Jewish eschatology more thoroughly and to discuss the works of John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, James George Frazer, Arthur Drews, and others, who contested the historical existence of Jesus." (Schweitzer (1931) Out of My Life and Thought page 125) But "my theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth" Frazer, Sir James George (1913) The golden bough: a study in magic and religion, Volume 9 pg 412 Care to explain this oh wise one without resorting to other sources?--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
No problem: (8)- I don't see the phrase "Christ myth theory", or any variant thereof, anywhere in Schweitzer's quote. Just put down the WP:STICK already. Eugene (talk) 05:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Reverting once again
Eugene, please stop reverting what I wrote. SlimVirgin talk contribs 23:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- No. I think the way you have attempted to structure Wells' and Price's sections are inferior to the way they were. Your preferred presentation of Wells' change of mind is awkward and Price's entire entry seems bulky and clumsy in your hands. You could always agree to the mediation and we'll come to a consensus there. I think I've already included these points on the list. Eugene (talk) 04:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'd probably phrase this a bit differently, but I share Eugene's concerns with the presentation of Wells and Price. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Akhilleus, if you could let me know what your concerns are, I'll take them into account. Eugene, I don't think you should be editing sections related to living persons that you disagree with. And please do not add again in WP's voice that Wells changed his mind. It needs attribution. SlimVirgin talk contribs 04:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- SV, I think I have a basic disagreement with the way you think particular attribution should be used. In this case, it's obvious that Wells has changed from thinking there was no historical Jesus to believing that Q springs from the activity of a historical preacher. We have several authoritative sources saying so, including Wells himself. So there should be no problem with the article simply stating this. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- It's not clear to me that he means it, except in the sense that "I should no longer be associated with that straw man theory," which could be tongue-in-cheek. The safest way of dealing with this is simply to use in-text attribution, which is what we always do on WP for anything that can't be in WP's voice. Is that your only objection to that passage? What is your objection to the Price section? SlimVirgin talk contribs 05:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Looking around at reviews of Wells, I'm not seeing people identify the recent fracture Eugene wants to emphasize. Wells himself calls it a revised position, but says he makes it clear in the last two of his books, not just in the most recent, and several other writers seem to concur. SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Looking around at reviews of Wells, I'm not seeing people identify the recent fracture Eugene wants to emphasize." Come on, this is silly. Just in this article we have a sympathetic reviewer (Price) who "identifies" the shift, an unsympathetic reviewer who does so (Van Voorst), and a quote straight from the horses mouth (Wells) that says the same thing. I really do not see why this is contentious. As for saying I want to "emphasize" this, like I said in an edit summary, how is moving two inline quotes to a footnote referencing a clause "emphasizing" this? If anything, I'm advocating for giving his change of mind less space in the article. Why are you opposed to this? Eugene (talk) 14:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Wells himself says that his position is reflected in his two most recent books. Please read what he says in the source material, and don't add your own views in WP's voice. SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:46, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Reverting continues
Eugene continues to revert my edits wholesale, particular edits I make to the Price and Wells sections. He must have done it over a dozen times, including three times between 19:03 April 21 and 03:30 April 22, taking his edits right up to 3RR. A recent edit summary of his illustrates the attitude:
19:43, April 20, 2010 Eugeneacurry (talk | contribs | block) (106,805 bytes) (Undid revision 357244016 by Wdford (talk) this is under discussion on talk; I'm out of reverts now, blast!) (undo)
I don't know how we can proceed if everything other people write is going to be undone. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, couldn't I say the exact same thing about you? Haven't you also been reverting me over an over again, including three times in the last 24 hours? As for my "attitude", I reverted an edit by another contributor who had deleted something that you strongly want in the article; I don't see how this makes me a bad guy, if anything this should be a sign of good faith on my part. I want Martin out of the lead, but I've committed to let the RfC do it's magic, per the Wikipedia policies. And as for your lament, "I don't know how we can proceed", of course you do; mediation is pending. Please sign up--it's a bit revealing that only one side of this content dispute is willing to allow referees into the conversation. Eugene (talk) 03:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I reverted Eugene because he messed up the section headers and didn't sort them out. I don't like the implication that reverts are an entitlement in his edit summary above. As for the mediation - I've been through one experience of you being very rude an dismissive while someone watched mildly on - not going there again soon. In the end it added nothing to the article. Sophia ♫ 06:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- How did I mess up the headers? If your terrified I might be incivil in mediation, tell the mediator that so he can be extra vigilant regarding such matters. Again, it's quite revealing that only one side of this dispute is willing to allow outside oversight into the discussion. Please re-agree to the mediation and we can sort all this out. Eugene (talk) 13:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) For Eugene: I've been trying to edit the article, add in-text attribution, make it stick more closely to the sources, remove commentary i.e. move forward a little. You are just reverting to a version that multiple editors have a problem with. It's also not correct that I reverted you three times in the last 24 hours. Here's the first, and the second. Then I stopped, but you didn't. SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, sort of, SlimVirgin. I suppose I should have said that "you have also been reverting me over and over again, including three times in the last 26 hours."[15][16][17] My point is that you have been hard at work removing and reverting material you think is unhelpful and low-quality, as have I, so either we're both bad guys or neither of us are. Take your pick. As for the in text attribution, given your enthusiasm for wikipedia policies, I'm confused by this. WP:FRINGE defines a fringe theory in a way that clearly includes this topic and that guideline discourages in-text attribution. So, were you not aware of that, or is your enthusiasm for policy merely selective and self-serving? Eugene (talk) 13:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well! It seems that a clarification is in order. WP:FRINGE discouraged particular attribution in the past... but no longer! SlimVirgin recently drastically changed the guideline to be more sympathetic to her agenda here! [18] It must be nice to be able to rewrite wiki-policy in the middle of a dispute to favor your own position. Does this qualify as disruptive editing? Eugene (talk) 14:16, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- You are both wiki editors, instead of playground bickering here go change the policy back and see if the community agrees. Sophia ♫ 15:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
G. A. Wells
G.A. Wells, Cutting Jesus down to size: what higher criticism has achieved and where it leaves Christianity (Open Court 2009), pp. 327-28:
[Eddy and Boyd] go on to distinguish (pp. 24f) three broad categories of judgement, other than their own, concerning Jesus:
1. that "the Jesus tradition is virtually—perhaps entirely—fictional."
2. that Jesus did exist but, as Bultmann argued, "the reports we have of him are so unreliable and saturated with legend...that we can confidently ascertain very little historical information about him."
3. that a core of historical facts about the real historical Jesus can be disclosed by research...
Eddy and Boyd are particularly concerned to refute the standpoint of those in category 1 of these 3, and classify me as one of them, as "the leading contemporary Christ myth theorist" (p. 168n). In fact, however, I have expressed stated in my books of 1996, 1999, and 2004 that I have repudiated this theory, and now really belong in their category 2. If the reader wishes a brief statement concerning my change of position and the reasons for it—briefer than I give in those three books or in the present one—I can refer him or her to my article "Jesus, Historicity of" in The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief, edited by Tom Flynn."
Sorry for the length of this quote, but I believe it can bring some clarity to at least one of the ongoing disputes here—we now have G.A. Wells unambiguously saying that he has "repudiated" his earlier belief in the Christ myth theory. If we are worried about hostile characterizations, we can just use his own words. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for finding this, Akhilleus. It illustrates my concern. Wells made clear in the source we're using in the article, [19] and in the quote you found above that he "stated in [his] books of 1996, 1999, and 2004 that [he had] repudiated this theory ..." Eugene has been trying to say something different: that the 1999 book represented a fracture of some kind, and kept changing the section to: "In The Jesus Myth (1999), Wells revised his position ..." [20] But there's no sign of Wells himself saying that. In the source we were using in the article (written in 2000), Wells made clear that his 1996 and 1999 books took the same position : "Now that I have allowed this in my two most recent relevant books ... it will not do to dub me a "mythicist" tout court (my emphasis)". [21] Despite the clarity of that, Eugene has reverted over 12 times to the section expressing his own opinion.
- Again, it raises the issue of this article describing something of a straw-man position (the extremist position, category one above) that even the best-known recent proponent has not held since at least 1996. SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm looking through the Encyclopedia of Unbelief that Wells referenced. It says that another source who took the Christ myth theory seriously, though he did not embrace it, was the French biblical scholar Charles Guignebert. SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've never been interested in labeling Wells' 1999 book specifically the turning point in his thinking. I'm interested in clearly and concisely indicating that Wells altered his position. Rather than do that with three distinct in-line quotations, I think it's better to use a simple phrase (e.g. "blah blah blah, Wells revised his position..."), sourced with the Voorst and Price quotes, then followed by only one in-line quote--Wells' own. I'm perfectly content to use this alternative to accomodate Wells' statements and SV's concerns: "In the late 1990s, Wells revised his position, ..." Is that okay with you SV? Eugene (talk) 05:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
pp. 14-15: "When I first addressed these problems, more than thirty years ago, it seemed to me that, because the earliest Christian references to Jesus are so vague, the gospel Jesus could be no more than a mythical expansion and elaboration of this obscure figure. But from the mid-1990s I became persuaded that many of the gospel traditions are too specific in their references to time, place, and circumstances to have developed in such a short time from no other basis, and are better understood as traceable to the activity of a Galilean preacher of the early first century, the personage represented in Q (the inferred non-Markan source, not extant, common to Matthew and Luke; cf. above, p. 2), which may be even earlier than the Paulines. This is the position I have argued in my books of 1996, 1999, and 2004, although the titles of the first two of these—The Jesus Legend and The Jesus Myth—may mislead potential readers into supposing that I still denied the historicity of the gospel Jesus." --Akhilleus (talk) 14:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Great, we have a primary source in which Wells uses the phrase "the mid-1990s"; let's use that then: "In the mid-1990s, Wells revised his position, ..." Eugene (talk) 14:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I mention this in a section below, but I'll mention it here as well. Popular, academically respected historian Michael Grant, in his 1977 book, Jesus, states the following in Footnote 12 for the book's appendix: "The latest book supporting the Christ-myth theory is G. A. Wells, Did Jesus Exist? (Pemberton, 1975) criticized by G. Stanton in The Times Literary Supplement, 29 August 1975, p. 977." Clearly someone thought G. A. Wells held this position (Grant is quite clear that by "Christ-myth theory" he means the position that Jesus didn't exist), and Wells' own description of his position, quoted above, doesn't seem to contradict it, since he's said to have adhered to the theory in the '75 book. Stanton's review must be available online somewhere, and that book by Welles must be available somewhere. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- That Stanton article would be a very useful source, John. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreement on Wells?
With the new sources I think that we can accomodate both those editors emphasizing clarity and brevity and those emphasizing verifiability:
"Wells revised his position in the mid-1990s,[18] arguing that the canonical gospels represent the fusion of two distinct Jesus narratives: Paul's mythical Jesus and a minimally historical Jesus whose teachings were preserved in the Q document, a hypothetical common source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Wells wrote in 2000: ..."
We can either retain the full quotes provided in the footnotes or we can just keep the citations, but the in-line text would appear the way it appears above. What does everyone say? Eugene (talk) 17:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, Eugene, please do not say that he revised his position in Wikipedia's voice. We must use in-text attribution for anything contentious in this article. If Wells says he revised it and when, we say so. If someone else does, we paraphrase what they say very carefully. Van Voorst is not a good source for this, in my view. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- "We must use in-text attribution for anything contentious in this article." Why? --Akhilleus (talk) 17:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- How is this contentious?! Wells says it, his ally Price says it, and a hostile source--Van Voorst--also says it. I simply do not understand why you're making an issue out of this. Fine, SV is intractable on this point; what does everyone else think? Consensus doesn't have to be strictly unanimous. Eugene (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- If Wells says it, we can use his words. We don't have to put it in WP's voice. There is a nice long quote from him below, which we can paraphrase. SlimVirgin talk contribs 18:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- We don't have to put it in WP's voice... but we should, for the sake of brevity and clarity. I honestly despair of making any headway if you are unwilling to bend on even such a minor issue. So that we don't just bicker back and forth, what's your proposed alternative? (I'd also still like others to comment on my proposed wording.) Eugene (talk) 18:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Reverting the Wells section
- Could you address the Wells example, then? You have reverted over a dozen times to your Wells section, where you wrote in WP's voice that Wells changed his position in 1999. But Wells himself says in numerous quotes that he didn't, but that he had revised it several years earlier. This was in the source in the article, and also in the source Akhilleus found, and I kept rewriting that section to reflect the source, but you wouldn't allow it.
- Could you address that one point only, please? I see it as OR, but perhaps you can explain it differently. SlimVirgin talk contribs 05:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Are you saying you reverted me over a dozen times without reading the source, or any of my posts? SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm saying that I thought Wells' comment in his online essay wasn't clear enough to correct Van Voorst's comment published in a book. Now that I've seen Wells' statement repeated in print, I concede that the article should indicate the shift came in the "mid-1990" as Wells says. Eugene (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What was unclear about Wells saying: "Now that I have allowed this in my two most recent relevant books ... it will not do to dub me a "mythicist" tout court" (my emphasis), which is in the source, [22] and which I added to the article (but you kept removing it), and stressed in some of my posts to you?
- And please don't continue to do OR. If you want to say that he really changed his position, you will have to quote him saying that with no ambiguity, and not "well, sure, if you want to call that changing my position, then fine." SlimVirgin talk contribs 16:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The quotes I've provided aren't ambiguous. Neither is Van Voorst. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What Wells said in the source already used in the article wasn't ambiguous either, but for some reason Eugene wanted to make it say something else. Part of Editing 101 is that we use in-text attribution for anything about which there's disagreement. That's particularly important here, because there's such contention about the most basic of points. SlimVirgin talk contribs 09:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Wells is surely the best authority on what Wells said. If we can't agree on what he is saying, let's just quote the relevant lines and let the readers decide for themselves what he meant. Wdford (talk) 10:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- What he's saying seems very clear, so we can simply paraphrase it. I'm bewildered by the resistance to this. SlimVirgin talk contribs 10:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've written up a brief summary of what Wells says about himself here, based only on the sources we've mentioned so far. SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think that your section is moving in the right direction. There are a couple points though that I think still need to be addressed:
- (1) "Graham Stanton writes that the most thoroughgoing and sophisticated of the proponents' arguments were set out in several books and papers by G. A. Wells, emeritus professor of German at Birkbeck College, London, including Did Jesus Exist? (1975), The Jesus Legend (1996), The Jesus Myth (1999), Can We Trust the New Testament? (2004), and Cutting Jesus Down to Size (2009)." This makes it sound like Stanton refered to all these books. Considering that Stanton's book was published in 2002 and the list of Wells work includes books published in 2004 and 2009 this is obviously impossible. Also, including the books (at least at this point in his section) from 1996-2009 is a bit misleading considering Wells' change of mind.
- I think that your section is moving in the right direction. There are a couple points though that I think still need to be addressed:
- (2) "Because he accepts some minimal historicity, he argues that he should not be dubbed a 'mythicist tout court', but nevertheless maintains that the historical evidence refers to 'a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles.'" This should be slightly altered for clarity to something like this: "Because he accepts some minimal historicity, he argues that he should not now be dubbed a 'mythicist tout court', but nevertheless maintains that the historical evidence refers to 'a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles.'" It's a minor change, but it helps, and Wells uses the word "now" in the sentance from which the quote is drawn.
So how about this: SlimVirgin's basic text with my small changes...
Graham Stanton writes that the most thoroughgoing and sophisticated of the proponents' arguments were set out in several books and papers by G. A. Wells, emeritus professor of German at Birkbeck College, London, including Did Jesus Exist? (1975).[19]
Wells writes that there are three broad approaches to the historicity of Jesus—(1) that Jesus is almost or entirely fictional; (2) that he did exist but that reports about him are so saturated by myth that very little can be said of him with any confidence; and (3) that he not only existed, but that a core of historical facts can be disclosed about him.[20]
When Wells first addressed the issue in the 1970s, he saw the Jesus of the gospels as no more than a myth, but in the mid-1990s moved toward the second position, seeing the gospels as traceable to a Galilean preacher of the early first century whose teachings were preserved in the hypothetical Q document, the inferred source common to Matthew and Luke. This is the position he adopts from 1996 onwards in books such as The Jesus Legend (1996), The Jesus Myth (1999), Can We Trust the New Testament? (2004), and Cutting Jesus Down to Size (2009).[21]
In The Jesus Myth, he argues that two Jesus narratives fused into one: Paul's mythical Jesus and a minimally historical Jesus.[22] Because he accepts some minimal historicity, he states that he should not now be dubbed a "mythicist tout court", but nevertheless maintains that the historical evidence refers to "a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles."[23]
I can live with this and I think it meaningfully improves the article and lessens the disagreements simmering on this talk page. Eugene (talk) 19:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I would like to include his publications upfront. The danger of the sentence you wrote is that there may be papers prior to 1996 not mentioned. I'm wary of the extent to which you want to emphasize a change of mind. I think we should give it the emphasis Wells gives it. My suggestion at this point (this is based only on the source material mentioned so far):
Graham Stanton wrote in 2002 that the most thoroughgoing and sophisticated of the proponents' arguments were set out by G. A. Wells, emeritus professor of German at Birkbeck College, London,[24] and author of Did Jesus Exist? (1975), The Jesus Legend (1996), The Jesus Myth (1999), Can We Trust the New Testament? (2004), and Cutting Jesus Down to Size (2009).
Wells writes that there are three broad approaches to the historicity of Jesus—(1) that Jesus is almost or entirely fictional; (2) that he did exist but that reports about him are so saturated by myth that very little can be said of him with any confidence; and (3) that he not only existed, but that a core of historical facts can be disclosed about him.[25]
When Wells first addressed the issue in the 1970s, he saw the Jesus of the gospels as no more than a myth, but in the mid-1990s moved toward the second position, seeing the gospels as traceable to a Galilean preacher of the early first century whose teachings were preserved in the hypothetical Q document, the inferred source common to Matthew and Luke. This is the position he adopts from 1996 onwards.[26]
In The Jesus Myth, he argues that two Jesus narratives fused into one: Paul's mythical Jesus and a minimally historical Jesus.[27] Because he accepts some minimal historicity, he argues that he should not be dubbed a "mythicist tout court", but nevertheless maintains that the historical evidence refers to "a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles."[28]
SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm mostly comfortable with this, my only reservation is that the wording could be taken to mean that Wells feels he never should have been labeled a "mythicist tout court". I think this could be easily fixed by including the word "now" (he used the word in the relevant sentence in his 2000 essay), either before "accepts", or before "be dubbed". Either one is fine with me. Eugene (talk) 19:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
So do we have agreement here SV? Can we add "now" in one of the two places I mentioned and finally strike something off the list of things to discuss? We coud have BlackKite add it in. Eugene (talk) 05:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- He doesn't say now in the quote. I don't understand this need always to go slightly beyond what the sources say, according to your own understanding of what they meant. I read him more along Anthony's lines. So let's just say what the man himself says and leave it there. SlimVirgin talk contribs 13:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Come on SV, we seem to be a single one syllable word away from agreement. How about including "now", as part of the paraphrase of his above quote, and asking BlackKite to replace the article's current section on Wells with this new one? Eugene (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay, SV hasn't responded to this and it's been a couple days now. She's made over 300 different edits across dozens of articles since I asked this question so it isn't like she's been unable to reply. On the basis of the principle Qui tacet consentire vidétur, I'm going to ask Black Kite to replace the article's current section on Wells with this one:
Graham Stanton wrote in 2002 that the most thoroughgoing and sophisticated of the proponents' arguments were set out by G. A. Wells, emeritus professor of German at Birkbeck College, London,[29] and author of Did Jesus Exist? (1975), The Jesus Legend (1996), The Jesus Myth (1999), Can We Trust the New Testament? (2004), and Cutting Jesus Down to Size (2009).
Wells writes that there are three broad approaches to the historicity of Jesus—(1) that Jesus is almost or entirely fictional; (2) that he did exist but that reports about him are so saturated by myth that very little can be said of him with any confidence; and (3) that he not only existed, but that a core of historical facts can be disclosed about him.[30]
When Wells first addressed the issue in the 1970s, he saw the Jesus of the gospels as no more than a myth, but in the mid-1990s moved toward the second position, seeing the gospels as traceable to a Galilean preacher of the early first century whose teachings were preserved in the hypothetical Q document, the inferred source common to Matthew and Luke. This is the position he adopts from 1996 onwards.[31]
In The Jesus Myth, he argues that two Jesus narratives fused into one: Paul's mythical Jesus and a minimally historical Jesus.[32] Because he accepts some minimal historicity, he argues that he should not now be dubbed a "mythicist tout court", but nevertheless maintains that the historical evidence refers to "a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles."[33]
So there. Eugene (talk) 13:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
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Merging this article
Before we continue discussing the contents of this article, I think we need to decide whether it ought to stand alone. The problem with it is that it strikes up an extreme position—Jesus is a fiction in his entirety—then lists a number of people who don't hold that position, and claims that they changed their minds. Therefore (the implication goes), the theory must be nonsense if even its adherents don't hold it anymore, and therefore (the implication goes further), Jesus did exist perhaps just as the New Testament claims. Any attempt to introduce nuance is reverted.
My feeling is that this article should exist as a section of Historicity of Jesus, confined only to those who themselves clearly state that they're adherents. Price doesn't see himself as believing it; G.A. Wells hasn't for a long time. Does Doherty rule out that there is some minimal historicity to Jesus? Did Drews even hold to it entirely? I just wonder whether this is a straw man position that would be better off explained within its context.
Merging would involve a slight expansion of this section of Historicity of Jesus (currently 4,200 words, so it could stand a little expansion), and anything not appropriate could be added to Jesus Christ in comparative mythology. SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it should stand alone. There's a significant number of secondary sources that treat this as a distinct and notable topic. I don't understand the straw man concern at all. In fact, the quote I provided from G.A. Wells just above is a good illustration that the position isn't a straw man: he says that he used to think there wasn't a historical Jesus, then he changed his mind. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- But he is responding to critics who have created an extremist category. He says himself, no, I've made clear in my last four books that I don't belong in your category one. We should try to get hold of his own summary of his position, the paper he references above. SlimVirgin talk contribs 02:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- He also makes it clear that he did belong in category one in his earlier books. If that was an extremist category, he was part of it. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Wells doesn't say that, A. He may have meant that, but he doesn't say it. SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Akhilleus. This is definitely a "distinct and notable topic". To claim otherwise would show a lack of understanding of the issue(s) at hand. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 02:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm very doubtful about merging, but this and Historicity of Jesus are closely linked. Normally, I prefer to split up subjects in ways other than POV because it's harder to maintain neutral treatment of all sides. Even if no one held the idea today, it's still a notable idea based on its history, and there is enough material in this article that shouldn't be lost as a result of a merge or some kind of reorganization. Slim, you say, and therefore (the implication goes further), Jesus did exist perhaps just as the New Testament claims. Well, of course, that the idea is rejected by so many scholars and held by extremely few does have the inevitable implication that Jesus (the man) existed. We and the readers can live with that implication as easily as we live with the implication that Mohammed and Buddha and Confucius existed. That part about just as the New Testament claims is a bit unclear to me. The New Testament is, in relation to this subject, a text like any other that can be used as evidence. If you mean that the implication is that Jesus existed just the way the New Testament describes him, that goes too far. Clearly Bart Ehrman doesn't believe that. I'm not familiar with the recent, popular books by atheists, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if all of those authors had no problem with the existence of Jesus as a man. For atheists or other non-Christians, or for Christians with various opinions, it simply doesn't mean much, either way. Any attempt to introduce nuance is reverted. We should explain the relevant nuances in the article. Has that been the subject of a discussion in the archives? If so, should we restart it? Could you post the language you want to add here? I think the purpose of the article protection was to encourage something like that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Strongly disagree with a merge. As Akhilleus has noted, it is a distinct topic and treated as such in many sources. Secondly, if it were to be merged in an article what justification do we have for dedicating so much space to an obscure fringe theory rejected by mainstream scholarship? It may be notable in its own right to have a page - it has a history and development, but to destroy Historicity of Jesus by having a fringe theory dominate it is ridiculous. --Ari (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) John, there are too many diffs to repeat them. The problem is that some of the editors writing the article have very strong views, and I feel are engaged in OR. I gave an example in the section above this about G.A. Wells. Wells says that he made his views clear in his 1996, 1999, and 2004 books that he does not subscribe to the extremist Christ myth position (a position created by the theory's opponents), but to a more nuanced position. Despite that, Eugene has been determined in this article to label Wells as someone who changed his mind radically in 1999, and has reverted every attempt to say otherwise.
- My worry with the article is that material has been grabbed here and there (SYN violations) to support a position that is mostly the opinion of the Wikipedians who wrote it. The difficulty in countering this is that I haven't found a good scholarly overview of the theory (and it may not exist, which further raises the question of whether we should have a stand-alone article about it). So I'm doing the reading, but it will take time, because I'm having to do it the old-fashioned way: going to libraries and borrowing books. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 03:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Why start a discussion about merging before boning up on the subject? I hope to get to an academic library to do a little research on this myself. In the meantime, I'm trying to find the books I have at home that mention this subject. I think any thick book about the history of scholarship on the New Testament is going to cover this. One book I have in front of me is by Michael Grant (about whom, our article states "According to his obituary in The Times he was "one of the few classical historians to win respect from [both] academics and a lay readership.") Grant has an appendix at the end of this book, Jesus (1977), in which he devotes two paragraphs (out of 24 paragraphs) to the position that Jesus never existed. He calls it "the Christ-myth theory". "[F]rom the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even 'seem' to exist, and that all tales of his appearance upon the earth were pure fiction." He also states,
- "But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. [...] [T]here had also been a rapid growth of legend round pagan figures like Alexander the Great; and yet nobody regards him as wholly mythical and fictitious. To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars'. In recent years 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' -- or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." (pp 199-200)
- Grant footnotes this (Footnote 13), but I can't entirely make out the citation right now. Here's what the footnote says: "R. Dunkerley, Behond the Gospels (Penguin, 1957), p. 12; O. Betz What Do We Know about Jesus? (SCM, 1968), p. 9; cf. H. Hawton, Controversy (Pemberton, 1971), pp. 172-182, etc." Here "SCM" stands for "Student Christian Movement", so you may distrust Grant for relying, at least in part, on a partisan source. On the other hand, if historians are relying on these sources, it may lend credibility to the source. Whoever this "H. Hawton" is, he seems to have 10 pages related to the subject, and that might be worth looking for. In another footnote (#12) in the appendix, Grant states: "The latest book supporting the Christ-myth theory is G. A. Wells, Did Jesus Exist? (Pemberton, 1975) criticized by G. Stanton in The Times Literary Supplement, 29 August 1975, p. 977." Clearly, the subject of this article is not a figment of Wikipedia editors' imaginations. While I'm quoting Grant, here's another one:
- A short way back, exception was taken [by Grant, himself] to the view that everything the evangelists say must be assumed correct until it is proved wrong. Should we, therefore, accept the opposite opinion, which has been locked in an agonizing struggle with it for two hundred years, that all the contents of the Gospels must be assumed fictitious until they are proved genuine? No, that is also too extreme a viewpoint and would not be applied in other fields. When, for example, one tries to build up facts from the accounts of pagan historians, judgment often has to be given not in the light of any external confirmation -- which is sometimes, but by no means always, available -- but on the basis of historical deductions and arguments which attain nothing better than probability. The same applies to the Gospels. Their contents need not be assumed fictitious until they are proved authentic. But they have to be subjected to the usual standards of historical persuasiveness." (p 201)
- Why start a discussion about merging before boning up on the subject? I hope to get to an academic library to do a little research on this myself. In the meantime, I'm trying to find the books I have at home that mention this subject. I think any thick book about the history of scholarship on the New Testament is going to cover this. One book I have in front of me is by Michael Grant (about whom, our article states "According to his obituary in The Times he was "one of the few classical historians to win respect from [both] academics and a lay readership.") Grant has an appendix at the end of this book, Jesus (1977), in which he devotes two paragraphs (out of 24 paragraphs) to the position that Jesus never existed. He calls it "the Christ-myth theory". "[F]rom the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even 'seem' to exist, and that all tales of his appearance upon the earth were pure fiction." He also states,
- Another book I found, Jesus Through the Centuries (1985) by Jaroslav Pelikan, a Sterling Professor of History at Yale, states, "Although there is no warrant for the extreme skepticism of those who maintain that the historical figure of Jesus, if indeed there even was one, is irretrievably lost behind the smoke screen of the preaching of the early Christian church, it is necessary nevertheless to begin with the caution that every later picture of Jesus is in fact not a picture based on an unretouched Gospel original, but a picture of what in the New Testament is already a picture." (p 10, Chapter 1: "The Rabbi"). This does seem to combine the ideas of "did not exist" with "we don't know whether or not he existed", kind of like the distinction between atheism and agnosticism. I think both ideas, which may be what you mean by "nuance" could be covered in this article, but that's not an argument for merging; it may be an argument for having the scope of this article cover both positions, which seem to be extremely close. I think some passages of our article already mention this.
- My own knowledge of the subject is grossly inadequate, but these sources that I happen to have at hand show serious, respected historians taking this subject seriously. I think that's enough, unless you can impeach them, to establish the legitimacy of the subject. In light of some of the other responses in this section, it seems to me counterproductive to be raising general doubts without a lot more evidence to back them up. I think it would be more productive to concentrate, slowly, on addressing specific problems with the article where we can back up a position with specific sourcing, as you did above with G.A. Wells. If you find sources that disagree with the WP article's description of the subject that trump these sources and the sources already mentioned in the article, then we can have a productive discussion. As of now, we have plenty of sourcing to justify the existence of this as a separate article, although we could certainly improve the sourcing. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 16:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Good scholarly overviews exist. I've mentioned them several times. Schweitzer, Case, Goguel, Bennett, Weaver, Van Voorst. Hoffman's introduction to the 1996 reissue of Goguel, Drews' introduction to The Christ-Myth, and some of Wells' books have useful historical overviews. The introduction to The Historical Jesus: Five Views (eds. Belby and Eddy) has useful info as well. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I mean an overview by an uninvolved academic. That would allow us to write this article without engaging in OR. SlimVirgin talk contribs 04:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Following reliable sources, such as every single source I just named, is what allows us to write this article without engaging in OR. You seem to be defining "involved" in such a way that means no source will be uninvolved. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, that line of reasoning is not going to work anymore - that is, "that some of the editors writing the article have very strong views" and that there is OR. You can sling mud all you like but you will not be able to shake the fact that the CMT is fringe, specific, and is thus worthy of a separate article. You can read all of the relevant documentation you like but, if you are honest, you will concede that the CMT is a wacky theory deserving illumination.
- Furthermore, you said, "The difficulty in countering this is that I haven't found a good scholarly overview of the theory". It seems to me that you are saying that you haven't found a reliable source that agrees with you. And you won't, because there isn't any source that is acknowledged by the vast majority of scholars as being historically and methodologically sound and, in many cases, not even worthy of a response from mainstream scholars. That's how highly unlikely the CMT is.
- SlimVirgin, is this the hill you really want to make a stand on? Please, don't let your pride get in the way. It's unbecoming. And if you don't want to believe me, then at least consult the resources Akhilleus mentioned above (03:57, 23 April 2010) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin said "Wells says that he made his views clear in his 1996, 1999, and 2004 books that he does not subscribe to the extremist Christ myth position (a position created by the theory's opponents)" are you saying that Wells said that the position was created by the theory's opponents, or are you claiming that yourself? Because, as you must've already discovered, that notion is false. It was certainly not created as a strawman by opponents. For example, the Jesus-as-fictional near-eastern synthesis notion was often based off of the "evidence" of Social Darwinist amateurs like Massey who attempted to link Old-world monotheism with aryan race theory a century ago.
This article is A. Fringe, B. Worthy of remaining distinct. NJMauthor (talk) 04:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- This article should remain distinct. As Sophia has noted in the past, were this to be merged with historicity of Jesus, unsympathetic editors would use WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE to suppress the CMT position into virtual non-existence on the page. Also, SlimVirgin, as you are concerned with this page being shaped by OR and SYN, don't you realize that your repeated and unsupported assertion that the definition here is a "straw-man" is itself an example of OR? Allow me to repeat an earlier post: There are all sorts of theories that were once seriously considered by academics, then abandoned, and now are still peddled only by cranks and amatuers (e.g. catastrophism, geocentrism, etc). Powell's quote indicates that the CMT falls into exactly this category: there used to be meaningful academic support, now it's a total laughing-stock. Why should we try to force the theory to be something it isn't (i.e. define it in a way the RSes don't) so as to artificially inflate it's modern academic credibility? Eugene (talk) 04:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Could you address the Wells example, then? You have reverted over a dozen times to your Wells section, where you wrote in WP's voice that Wells changed his position in 1999. But Wells himself says in numerous quotes that he didn't, but that he had revised it several years earlier. This was in the source in the article, and also in the source Akhilleus found, and I kept rewriting that section to reflect the source, but you wouldn't allow it.
- Could you address that one point only, please? I see it as OR, but perhaps you can explain it differently. SlimVirgin talk contribs 05:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Are you saying you reverted me over a dozen times without reading the source, or any of my posts? SlimVirgin talk contribs 06:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm saying that I thought Wells' comment in his online essay wasn't clear enough to correct Van Voorst's comment published in a book. Now that I've seen Wells' statement repeated in print, I concede that the article should indicate the shift came in the "mid-1990" as Wells says. Eugene (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What was unclear about Wells saying: "Now that I have allowed this in my two most recent relevant books ... it will not do to dub me a "mythicist" tout court" (my emphasis), which is in the source, [23] and which I added to the article (but you kept removing it), and stressed in some of my posts to you?
- And please don't continue to do OR. If you want to say that he really changed his position, you will have to quote him saying that with no ambiguity, and not "well, sure, if you want to call that changing my position, then fine." SlimVirgin talk contribs 16:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The quotes I've provided aren't ambiguous. Neither is Van Voorst. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Copying the above and replying in the G.A. Wells section. SlimVirgin talk contribs 09:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
(remove indent)I once believed there was a definite 'non-historical Jesus' aka Christ myth theory but after going through the literature I had to accept the painful fact that there was no consensus in the literature on what the term even ment. Farmer, Horbury, and Wiseman define the term Christ Myth theory in the Jesus NEVER existed context of this article but then you have definitions of Bromiley, Pike (vague), Dodd (vague), and Welsh which do allow for a historical person to be involved. It certainly doesn't help that Price and Doherty call Wells' current preexiting quasi-mythical Paul Jesus + Historical Teacher = Gospel Jesus as being part of the "Jesus/Christ myth theory" or that the terms Christ myth and Jesus myth are used in other ways. I still hold that this entire article rests on WP:SYN, WP:OR, and the False dilemma that Jesus either is or isn't historical. There are those who hold the there was a "historical" Jesus but his relationship tot eh Gospel accounts is effectively nil--where to they fit into all this.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Bruce - that was exactly the question I raised in the "Please Clarify?" section above. There is more than one "interpretation" of the "Christ Myth Theory". The topic is certainly notable, but the article needs to clarify the different versions, as the rebuttals etc also vary accordingly. Wdford (talk) 08:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Christ myth: definition
A stable definition of the title of the article is essential. In the FAQ, Eugene has provided references and quotes for authors who say it is the proposition that Jesus is a fictional character. Do you have the resources to supply the exact quote and citation for "Bromiley, Pike (vague), Dodd (vague), and Welsh", Bruce? If not the exact cite, then what you can remember about the sources? Anthony (talk) 09:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, not this again. Discussing Bruce's assertions has chewed up tons of space in the talk page archives. Suffice it to say that Bromiley, Pike, Dodd, and Walsh (not Welsh) define the subject as the idea that there was no historical Jesus. If you want the sad details, you can conveniently access some quotes in Bruce's post Talk:Christ_myth_theory/Archive_24#Bias in article title. The post there repeats almost verbatim posts Bruce has made throughout the talk archives. I'll just pick out a quote from Pike: "The theory that Jesus Christ was not a historical character, and that the Gospel records of his life are mainly, if not entirely, of mythological origin." (Pike, Royston (1951) Encyclopaedia of Religion and Religions) This does not differ significantly from the definition in the FAQ. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, Bruce has beat this horse to death to no avail. As I told the GA reviewer, Bruce misrepresents his sources on this point, sometimes very substantially so. For example, Bruce mentions Walsh... but this article already quotes Walsh in both the in-line text and provide a fuller quote in the FAQ (or at least it did) and it's quite clear that Walsh understand the CMT as the argument that Jesus was a pure myth. Eugene (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Akhilleus. Bruce, I've followed Akhilleus' link to a long list of quotes, but as a nonspecialist in this field (i.e., a typical reader of the page) you'll need to spoon feed me. From that list, or elsewhere, can you find any quotes that say "Christ myth theory/hypothesis means ..." or words to that effect, that convey something different than "Jesus was an entirely fictional character?" Anthony (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- While most sources say Christ myth theory implies the belief that Jesus did not exist, I'd recommend following Walsh and Wells in saying that the essential contention is that Christianity originated as a myth. It will avoid much confusion if this is presented primarily as a theory about how early Christians came to believe in Christ. The mainstream accounts all hold that a historical person had significant impact on the formation of this belief. Perhaps, it developed as a disillusioned community re-interpreted the past in light of their failed messianic expectations. The precise account may vary, but mainstream scholarship trace such trajectories from Jesus to Christ. In contrast, this theory denies any impact whatsoever, even when conceding that a historical Jesus is at the core of Q, it maintains that Christ originated as a myth later dressed up as history. Vesal (talk) 17:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The issue is that it becomes a more mainstream position if interpreted that way, and more of a tiny-minority position if interpreted the other way. Eugene has offered one sourced definition, the one currently used in the article, which says the definition is that Christianity originated as a myth: "Philosopher George Walsh writes that early Christianity can be regarded as originating as a myth later dressed up as history, or with an historical being who was later mythologized. The theory that it began as a myth is known as the Christ myth theory ..." That makes no comment on whether such an historical being existed—it simply asserts, as you say, that he had no impact on the formation of the myth. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'd dispute your characterizations. The broader definition would make the theory more of a tiny minorty view, the correct and more narrow definition make it a crank view. But that's not entirely relevant. More to the point, it's simply untrue that I've only provided one sourced definition; the FAQ contains many!
- The issue is that it becomes a more mainstream position if interpreted that way, and more of a tiny-minority position if interpreted the other way. Eugene has offered one sourced definition, the one currently used in the article, which says the definition is that Christianity originated as a myth: "Philosopher George Walsh writes that early Christianity can be regarded as originating as a myth later dressed up as history, or with an historical being who was later mythologized. The theory that it began as a myth is known as the Christ myth theory ..." That makes no comment on whether such an historical being existed—it simply asserts, as you say, that he had no impact on the formation of the myth. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The radical solution was to deny the possibility of reliable knowledge of Jesus, and out of this developed the Christ myth theory, according to which Jesus never existed as a historical figure and the Christ of the Gospels was a social creation of a messianic community.
- William R. Farmer, "A Fresh Approach to Q", in Jacob Neusner, Christianity, Judaism and Other Greco-Roman Cults, 4, Leiden: Brill, 1975, p. 43
- Negative as these [hyper-minimalist] conclusions appear, they must be strictly distinguished from the theories of the mythologists. According to the critics whom we may term minimalists, Jesus did live, but his biography is almost totally unknown to us. The mythologists, on the other hand, declare that he never existed, and that his history, or more exactly the legend about him, is due to the working of various tendencies and events, such as the prophetic interpretation of Old Testament texts, visions, ecstasy, or the projection of the conditions under which the first group of Christians lived into the story of their reputed founder.
- Maurice Goguel, "Recent French Discussion of the Historical Existence of Jesus Christ", Harvard Theological Review 19 (2), 1926, pp. 117–118
- The Christ-Myth theory (that Jesus never lived) had a certain vogue at the beginning of this century but is not supported by contemporary scholarship.
- Alan Richardson, The Political Christ, London: SCM, 1973, p. 113
- If this account of the matter is correct, one can also see why it is that the 'Christ-myth' theory, to the effect that there was no historical Jesus at all, has seemed so plausible to many...
- Hugo A. Meynell, An Introduction to the Philosophy of Bernard Lonergan (2nd ed.), Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1991, p. 166
- Defense of Biblical criticism was not helped by the revival at this time of the 'Christ-Myth' theory, suggesting that Jesus had never existed, a suggestion rebutted in England by the radical but independent F. C. Conybeare.
- William Horbury, "The New Testament", in Ernest Nicholson, A Century of Theological and Religious Studies in Britain, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003, p. 55
- [W]e have to explain the origin of Christianity, and in so doing we have to choose between two alternatives. One alternative is to say that it originated in a myth which was later dressed up as history. The other is to say that it originated with one historical individual who was later mythologized into a supernatural being. The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory.
- George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History, New Brunswick: Transaction, 1998, p. 58
- The Jesus-was-a-myth school... argue[s] that there never was a Jesus of Nazareth, that he never existed.
- Clinton Bennett, In Search of Jesus: Insider and Outsider Images, New York: Continuum, 2001, p. 202
- Zindler depends on secondary works and writes with the aim of proving the Christ-Myth theory, namely, the theory that the Jesus of history never existed.
- John T. Townsend, "Christianity in Rabbinic Literature", in Isaac Kalimi & Peter J. Haas, Biblical Interpretation in Judaism and Christianity, New York: T. & T. Clark, 2006, p. 150
- Though [Charles Guignebert] could not accept either the Christ myth theory, which held that no historical Jesus existed, or the Dutch Radical denial that Paul authored any of the epistles, Guignebert took both quite seriously.
- Robert M. Price, in Tom Flynn, The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief, Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2007, p. 372
- As we have noted, some legendary-Jesus theorists argue that, while it is at least possible, if not likely, an actual historical person named Jesus existed, he is so shrouded in legendary material that we can know very little about him. Others (i.e, Christ myth theorists) argue that we have no good reason to believe there ever was an actual historical person behind the legend.
- Paul R Eddy & Gregory A. Boyd, The Jesus Legend: a Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition, Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007, p. 165
This non-issue has long been used by critics of the page as a wedge strategy to try to rehabilitate the thesis. The fact of the matter is that RSes, over and over and over and over again, equate the CMT with a belief in the non-existence of Jesus. Eugene (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, reliable sources do equate the theory, and I don't mean to ignore them. I prefer the other framing because I find it hard nail down what it means to say "Jesus of History did not exist". But let me try... Jesus is two things to us 1) the founder of Christianity, and 2) the star of the Gospels. For this theory, I would emphasize his role as the founder of Christianity. Even Biblical minimalists, who have their issues with the Gospels, seem to have no doubt that a historical person was the founder of Christianity. Thus, the core and unique feature of myth-theory is the denial of a historical person having significant impact on the foundation of Christianity. Making this clear will avoid confusion with minimalists, and lest you worry, it will not change the scholarly acceptance of this theory in any way. :) Vesal (talk) 18:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think Vesal's pointing to something important here. The essential feature of the CMT is the denial of Jesus' historicity; but once you do that, you have to come up with an alternative story of the origins of Christianity and the formation of he Gospels, etc. CMT advocates are united on non-historicity, but diverse in their accounts of how early Christianity developed. It's worth explaining that in the lead. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think we should in any way obscure the CMT unity on Jesus' non-existence; even the littlest bit of ambiguity here and you'll end up with hordes of WP:ZOMBIES trying to excise almost every source given in the article in a desperate bid to rehabilitate the theory. Their battle-cry will be "OR" or "SYN" or something. But as for indicating a diversity of explanations for Christianity's emergence sans Jesus, I think that would be helpful. I'm aware of at least three: (1) Kalthoff's socio-economic interpretations that saw "Jesus" as an idealized underdog or something, (2) Drew's pagan copy-cat theories, (3) and Jewish mystical xeno-genesis stuff like the middle stuff Wells produced. Eugene (talk) 18:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
If a person accepts that there lived an insignificant miracle-working preacher called Jesus, but this preacher had no impact on early Christians, this would still be effectively denying the historicity of Jesus. Do we all agree on at least this much? Then, what if we were to say that this insignificant preacher is the source behind the Q traditions? I'm willing to accept that this is where the line is drawn, but I am genuinely confused as to why. And sources that just say "CMT = Jesus did not exist" does not help me understand where and why the line is drawn. Vesal (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- "If a person accepts that there lived an insignificant miracle-working preacher called Jesus, but this preacher had no impact on early Christians, this would still be effectively denying the historicity of Jesus." I don't think so, because this person still accepts that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth. However, you seem to be describing a position that no one holds. After all, if the preacher's activity is recorded in the Q source, he had some influence on early Christians. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The material currently in the lead seems to draw the line at a completely different point than that "They argue that, while some gospel material may have been drawn from one or more preachers who actually existed, these individuals were not in any sense the founder of Christianity". The word "some" in there leaves a lot of room for interpretation but it seems to be suggesting that you can be a Christ Myth Theorist while believing in a historical preacher who did have an impact on early Christians to the extent that at least "some" material in the gospels was based on his life. Is everyone saying that that's incorrect? Or are people supporting that content? 217.28.5.247 (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Some CMT advocates believe that a historical person living in a different timeframe (Yeshua ben Pandera, for instance) lies behind some of the New Testament material (but that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist). The article should probably explain this position more clearly... --Akhilleus (talk) 23:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- But what about Wells who currently holds to both positions ie Paul's Jesus was a vaguely remembered figure from a begone time and the Gospel writers took that and mixed in the accounts of a historical 1st teacher of the same name ala Dodd?--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added a few more quotes regarding the definition to FAQ #1. We now have scholars teaching (or who taught) at Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and on and on and on all defining the CMT as the denial of Jesus' historicity. Please, for the love of God, let this go. Eugene (talk) 23:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think Eugene's sources make it abundantly clear that the "strict CMT" holds that "no Jesus ever existed at all". However, to clear up the residual confusion, perhaps we should simply add a sentence to the opening paragraph that reads something like "The CMT is different to other theories which accept that a historical Jesus did exist, but reject the gospel claims that he was a divine being." Then it will be clear to everyone where the limits of this article lie, and there can perhaps be separate article/s dealing with the various "historical but not divine" theory/s (which do have the support of many respected historians). Maybe it would help even more to rename the article "Jesus myth theory", to make it even more distinct from those who postulate "Jesus the preacher did exit, but the gospel Christ did not". Wdford (talk) 08:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Of course "historical but not divine" is the mainstream position and discussed in the historical Jesus article. I'm tired of this already... since I think this article is getting far more attention than it deserves, I'm not at all motivated to argue this any further. Let me just try to spell it out one last time: the question is how any of these sources make clear what it means to say Jesus did not exist. Akhilleus, who is the only one to actually address my questions, says that allowing for an insignificant miracle worker is already admitting that Jesus existed. I'm willing to accept that, but I really don't see how that follows from any of these sources. Doesn't even Price admit that an insignificant preacher may have lived? I'm still confused, but I'm willing to let this go and unwatch this page. Regards, Vesal (talk) 12:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
If the Christ myth theory means "Jesus did not exist", what does that mean?
- (1) there were no preachers in early 1st century Galilee-Judea doing or saying the kinds of things attributed to Jesus in the New Testament, and the NT Jesus is pure fiction?
- (2) there was/were preacher/s in early 1st century Galilee-Judea doing and saying some or all of the things attributed to Jesus in the New Testament but he/they are anonymous, and the New Testament character may be partly or wholly based on him/them?
- (3) there was a man named Jesus, brother of James, in 1st century Galilee-Judea, but we do not know what he said or did, so the New Testament Jesus Christ is as likely as not pure fiction?
All of the above? Something else? What is meant by ahistoricity is crucial. Anthony (talk) 14:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, #3 isn't the Christ myth theory since the CMT is the affirmation that Jesus of Nazareth, brother of James, never existed. I know some guys who have argued for #2, like Revilo P. Oliver, but currently he isn't on the list. #1 seems closest to the definition, but to say that "there were no preachers in early 1st century Galilee-Judea doing or saying the kinds of things attributed to Jesus in the New Testament" is sort of ambiguous. After all, John the Baptist was sorta like Jesus, but that's not really pertinent to the CMT. Eugene (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Can you tell me in your own words what "Jesus never existed" or "there was no Jesus of Nazareth" means, for the purpose of this definition? Anthony (talk) 21:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Actually it is not clear how Paul used the term 'brother' (in blood or in spirit). Worse Hegesippus clearly puts the death of James the Just c69 CE while the death of the James brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, in Josephus occurs c62 and Josephus seems to tell us the fate and full name of the Jesus he is referring to in the final passage: "Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest." Richard M. Mitchell in 1893 is the earliest person to point the "son of Damneus" issue and Remsburg pointed it out again in 1909 while adding the Hegesippus-Josephus contradiction as to when James the Just died. Given how common the name Jesus was and the fact that Christ was a title if the "Jesus, who was called Christ" and "Jesus, the son of Damneus" were two people then why didn't Josephus say something like "Jesus, son of Joseph, who was called Christ" to clarify things.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's like Josephus was trying to confuse us by talking about a Jesus brother of James who was heralded as Messiah, lead a movement as a wise teacher and miracle worker, and was executed under Pontius Pilate (26-36) having been accused by the leading men. It's just coincidence that all this is reflected in Christian and non-Christian sources as core features of the life of Jesus. Could have been anyone. He should have left a video if he wanted anyone to take him seriously. --Ari (talk) 08:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
How about this one: The Christ Myth theory designates a number of explanations of the origins of Christianity which minimize or deny the historical life and teaching of Jesus Christ, arguing instead that this figure is best understood as essentially mythical. Barrett Pashak (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Considering how often reviewers complain that the article isn't clear enough about what the Christ myth theory is, I think it would be better to just stick closely to the dozens of sources to hand and say something like this in the lead: "The Christ myth theory is the theory that Jesus never existed." We can then go on to provide a bit of nuance (as the article currently does) in subsequent sentences and perhaps discuss a few varients in the fuller definition body section. I think that the smash-mouth definition is needed at this point, though; it seems to be the only way to accomodate careless readers of this article. Eugene (talk) 17:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Alternative CMT explanations of the origins of Christianity and the formation of the Gospels.
From CMT definition above:
- Akhilleus: "The essential feature of the CMT is the denial of Jesus' historicity; but once you do that, you have to come up with an alternative story of the origins of Christianity and the formation of he Gospels, etc. CMT advocates are united on non-historicity, but diverse in their accounts of how early Christianity developed. It's worth explaining that in the lead."
- Eugene: "...as for indicating a diversity of explanations for Christianity's emergence sans Jesus, I think that would be helpful. I'm aware of at least three: (1) Kalthoff's socio-economic interpretations that saw "Jesus" as an idealized underdog or something, (2) Drew's pagan copy-cat theories, (3) and Jewish mystical xeno-genesis stuff like the middle stuff Wells produced."
I think it deserves substantial attention in the body of the article. Anthony (talk) 07:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Akhilleus that it should be mentioned in the lead. However, since many of those alternative theories accept that a historical Jesus existed, and that the cloak of "Divine Saviour" was thrust upon him hundreds of years after his death, they are not strictly speaking "Christ myth theories". Should they really be discussed here in detail, or should that material rather form part of a separate article (such as Historical Jesus perhaps) with links? Wdford (talk) 08:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
From Eugene's quotes in the FAQ (and in the absence of any examples to the contrary) it is clear that CMT means complete ahistoricity. Theory can mean just the proposition, or the proposition and its supporting explanation/argument. If this article is to discuss only the proposition, it will be ten sentences long and can be a tiny subsection of Historical Jesus or Historicity of Jesus. If it adopts the latter definition of theory, the article needs to cover how you explain the emergence of the Jesus and Christ traditions while denying the historicity of Jesus the man, and, perhaps, also cover the argument against that explanation. Eugene's examples hint at some diversity in explanation, and I think a detailed, neutral elaboration of those alternative explanations is essential here. Anthony (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- The opponents have made the theory refer to complete ahistoricity, but that's the straw-man aspect. Proponents wishing not to be categorized in such stark terms deny being mythicists, at which point opponents say either (a) "See? It has no proponents who aren't nuts," or (b) "Ha! Another one has changed his mind!"
- But in fact the debate, as you'd expect in ancient history, is considerably more nuanced than the opponents' framing of it. SlimVirgin talk contribs 15:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a big battery of quotes up there in the FAQ, from 1926 to the present, saying it means there was no historical person behind the legend, or Jesus never existed. Bruce thinks (if I've understood him correctly) the term was twisted into this meaning in the late 1920's 1930's; and prior to that it was less narrowly defined. If the term has been habitually used by experts in the field for the last eighty years to mean "he never lived" that's probably the meaning for this article. Now, just what does "He never lived" mean (see Vesal above)!? Anthony (talk) 16:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've pulled together some threads from this year about the confusion over the definition in case there's anything in there that's helpful; see Talk:Christ myth theory/definition. SlimVirgin talk contribs 16:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Aaaargh! Anthony (talk) 21:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, but instructive. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Writings about Jesus
I quote: "So far as is known, Jesus never wrote anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him." The last part (nor did anyone...) seems to be a sweeping statement. Please change this to make the article more neutral. Another somewhat objectionable statement is "Paul was not a follower of Jesus; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus." In Acts 9, Luke, who is thought to be the author, claims Paul saw Jesus. Paul might not have made such a claim, but Luke did. Paul was also definitely a follower of Jesus, even though not at the time that Jesus lived. This is evident through the text in the Epistles, which are usually attributed to Paul. I suggest that the first be replaced with: "So far as is known, Jesus never wrote anything, nor did any of his followers, during his lifetime." The second sentence (Paul was not a follower...) should be omitted. It does not seem to add to the article. I think this would significantly improve the neutrality of the article. --Wsrh 2009 (talk) 18:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that section is deeply problematic and only remains as it is because the POV material was thrown in right before the page was locked. When the lock expires it will be drastically revised. The issues you mention are currently on the list of things to discuss here and, assuming that progress can be made on the trival matters that seem to be bogging us down, hopefully we'll hash out that section in the next two weeks. Eugene (talk) 18:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Which POV material was "thrown in" just before the page was locked? That's not true at all of that section, which was written and sourced some time before page protection. And please make sure that any drastic revision involves expanding material, but not removing it if it's properly sourced. SlimVirgin talk contribs 15:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- The statement that "So far as is known, Jesus never wrote anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him." is wild over-reach and not at all the consensus view of scholars. For example, N. T. Wright (the man Newsweek called "perhaps the world's leading New Testament scholar"; taught at McGill University and Oxford University), Martin Hengel (University of Tubingen), Richard Bauckham (University of St. Andrews), I think Larry Hurtado (University of Edinburgh), and a veritable army of professors in North America think that people with "personal knowledge" of Jesus wrote parts of the Bible (e.g. The Gospel According to John, 1 John, probably James, maybe 1 Peter). In fact, I think the whole background and definition section is currently intended to "create the space" neccesary to make the CMT seem less fringy, in contravention of the scholarly consensus, and thus runs afoul of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.
- How about this instead. Rather than include a left-of-center quote about how unreliable the Bible is (which will only produce more edit warring or, at the very least, another section with a back-and-forth quote "argument") let's replace it with a snappy graphic based on John Macquarrie's quote in The Scope of Demythologizing: Bultmann and His Critics: ...on the one hand, literal acceptance of everything in the New Testament as the veridical record of what happened, and, on the other, some form of Christ-myth theory which denies that there ever was a Jesus. But neither of these extreme positions stands up to scrutiny." (p. 93) We could whip up a nice little colorful spectrum in which the CMT theory is the left pole and literalistic fundamentalism is the right pole. It would help make the point that needs to be made while being less contentious than the alternatives. We don't have to say that neither pole "stands up to scrutiny" we'd just be using the quote as a ref that the two positions represent contrasting "extremes".Eugene (talk) 16:54, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Eugene, can you say which "POV material was thrown in right before the page was locked", please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- It seems I was mistaken about the timing. Shockingly I overlooked your inclusion of this material a few days before the lock.[24] Had I noticed it I would have been removing it along with the other stuff. But the timing isn't all that relevant, my above concerns and proffered solution still stand. What do you think about replacing White's paraphrased quote with the continuum based on Macquarrie's comment? Macquarrie is most academically impressive than White, afterall. Eugene (talk) 18:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't remove anyone else's work, Eugene. L. Michael White is a good source. When I was asking around about who I should read for a solid background in this, White was recommended. Feel free to expand that section or any other, but please don't remove anything. SlimVirgin talk contribs 18:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) So you'd really rather prefer a section that reads: "White says X, Y, and Z. But scholars A, B, and C say Z is nonsense" ? Wouldn't it just be better to side-step this and just have a definition with a continuum showing the CMT as the polar opposite of fundamentalism? Eugene (talk) 18:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know what you can have against White—he has degrees coming out of his ears, and a PhD from Yale. But yes, I would like to see the article written with in-text attribution: A says X and B says Y (this must be the 100th time I've written this on these talk pages). :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- White's a good source for general knowledge about Christian origins. But why use him in this article? The amount of background given here should be minimal; readers who want it can turn to historical Jesus, etc. All we need to say is that most scholars think Jesus was historical, the NT and other sources contain valuable evidence about his life and deeds, but there's deep disagreement about how to interpret this evidence. Macquarrie provides that, but so would other sources that have been brought up here already. It is, I think, valuable to point out that there are options other than biblical literalism and the CMT, because from time to time editors come in here thinking that Jesus was historical entails thinking that all the details of the Gospels including the miracles are true. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Definition again
I was thinking of something like this...
I think this would be both fun and helpful. With this, a shortened version of the White material (sans the "no personal knowledge" stuff that could be contested forever), a nice clear definition like "The Christ myth theory is the belief that Jesus never existed at all", and maybe a passing referene to Goguel's distinction between mythicism and minimalism, I think we'd be set. Eugene (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that looks pretty good. Let's do it. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Except you still have Dodd's "Or, alternatively, they seized on the reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name and arbitrarily attached the "Cult-myth" to him." definition to deal with which is basically Wells' current position and Dodd put for this definition back in 1938!--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- That still leaves the part of the Christ Myth theory crowd that holds there was a first century philosopher named Jesus but the Gospels tell us next to nothing about him. As I have stated before the Christ Myth theory covers a large area from the extreme Jesus didn't exist in any shape way or form outside of the mind through the historical teacher who was "plugged into" an already existing messiah myth to the point the Gospels tell us little to nothing about the actual man (ala John Remburg) to the Gospel Jesus is a composite character composed of many messiahs of which the actual flesh and blood Jesus is only one part. If you really are honest about it Occam's Razor suggests the composite character is most rational solution to all the known timeline discrepancies of the Gospels.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
"As I have stated before the Christ Myth theory covers a large area from the extreme Jesus didn't exist in any shape way or form outside of the mind through the historical teacher who was "plugged into" an already existing messiah myth" I disagree with the validity of this statement, Bruce. Virtually all sources use CMT to describe the position that "Jesus didn't exist in any shape way or form". NJMauthor (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Which is practically a reductio ad absurdum. Which academic source in his right mind would confidently assert that? Price doesn't, Wells doesn't. Does anyone? SlimVirgin talk contribs 22:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think that NJMauthor was saying that we should use that exact terminology. I think we should use the exact quotes in the FAQ to define the CMT, and when we paraphrase (should that be necessary), we can use words like "ahistorical" and/or "fictional". Also, even a composite person would still be ahistorical and/or fiction (like Mel Gibson's character in the movie The Patriot, where the character is mainly a composite of four different people with fictional elements thrown in to add drama).
- SV, Eugene, Akhilleus, and everyone who has the resources at hand, can you compile a list of exact quotes from proponents of the CMT that define what they mean? We can then place them side by side, so to speak, with the quotes in the FAQ and then place the section at the top of the discussion page for reference. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:44, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I would really appreciate it if people wouldn't post any more lists of quotes. We need to focus on quality, not quantity. SlimVirgin talk contribs 23:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- SV, how can we focus on quality if we are not even agreed on what we are talking about??? I mean, if you and others maintain that the CMT is something other what already is quoted in the FAQ, then why the problem with listing opposing definitions? If you really think that the CMT is not about the idea that Jesus is a purely fictional character, then you should be able to find quotes from the proponents of the CMT that say as much. BruceGrub is making an effort (see his comments below) so why can't you do the same? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)\
- Then lead the way, Bill. You're asking others to list quotes, but you're not including yourself. To avoid cluttering this page even more, you could list them at Talk:Christ myth theory/Quotes. SlimVirgin talk contribs 00:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- NJMauthor has clearly missed Dodd's definition which clearly includes an obscure but historical person being "plugged into" an existing myth as well as James Remburg's definition in his The Christ (now retitled The Christ Myth): "While all Freethinkers are agreed that the Christ of the New Testament is a myth they are not, as we have seen, and perhaps never will be, fully agreed as to the nature of this myth. Some believe that he is a historical myth; others that he is a pure myth. Some believe that Jesus, a real person, was the germ of this Christ whom subsequent generations gradually evolved; others contend that the man Jesus, as well as the Christ, is wholly a creation of the human imagination. After carefully weighing the evidence and arguments in support of each hypothesis the writer, while refraining from expressing a dogmatic affirmation regarding either, is compelled to accept the former as the more probable." Then you have uses of the term Christ myth in this manner: "As for the story of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, Mark took the basic ideas from the Christ myth but dared to imagine how the crucifixion and of the Christ might look if played out as a historical even in Jerusalem, something the Christ myth resisted. [...] Ever after, Christians would imagine Mark's fiction as history and allow this erasure of the time as a wink in the mind of Israel's God." (Mack, Burton L. (1996) Who wrote the New Testament? pg 152) Now Mack clearly accepts Jesus was a historical person on page 46 so this "Christ myth" he is talking about is not the same as the non-historical theory that this article presents. Remember Drews has been referenced repeatedly but AFAWK he never used the term Christ myth theory only Christ myth. I have already presented proof that in 1931 Schweitzer put Frazer a man who clearly stated "my theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth" in the same class as John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, and Arthur Drews and no amount of tap dancing is going to change that quote. The FAQ is flawed because it tries to exclude definitions like Dodd's that thorw the entire no historical basis out the window.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- BG, you have some good quotes. Can you please list them in the same form as is done in the FAQ (i.e., specifying the author's published material, page number, etc.) and put them on my talk page? If you are willing to do so, then I'll be happy to create a new section on this page that includes both your list and the list found in the FAQ. Thanks. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Or better still you could write them up yourself and post them to the FAQ. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 00:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- SV, I'm not trying to put the onus on other people. But I'm not the one who insists that the CMT is anything other than the claim that Jesus is fictional. I simply want BG to list quotes that suggest otherwise (on my talk page, since you have some reservations about listing them here), and I'll be happy to do the work to place them side by side with the abundant quotes in the FAQ. Moreover, this is not specifically about the FAQ, per se - it's about the quotes themselves, so trying to eliminate the FAQ from the discussion is a waste of time (unless, of course, you intention is to muddy the waters).
- If you think that the CMT has nuances beyond the clearly defined quotes already given, then please include them them too. SV, I'm willing to do the work to compile the list into a single section, but I need those editors who disagree with the definition provided by reliable sources to list the resources because my access to the relevant data are limited. Don't you think that that is fair? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 02:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"NJMauthor has clearly missed Dodd's definition" Bruce has clearly forgotten the definition of the word "Virtually". And Slimvirgin, I wasn't suggesting the use of that wording, I was quoting Bruce.NJMauthor (talk) 02:35, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well said, NJMauthor. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 02:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with the nice spectrum, Eugene. The polar opposite of CMT is the historicity of Jesus, not "literalistic fundamentalism" regarding the canonical gospels (with the polar opposite probably being something like Bultmann or Burton Mack.) --Ari (talk) 04:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- My thinking is that, on the spectrum, literalistic fundamentalism grants a full and strict 100% of the NT material related to Jesus. On the other hand, the CMT grants a strict 0%. From my understanding of Bultmann, he grants that Jesus was a wonder-working/exorcizing Jew of the first century who was eventually crucified. For his part, Mack at least grants that an identifiable sub-stratum of the parables are authentic. I'd put these guys somewhere at around 10% on the continuum. There's no need to represent that graffically, but the in-text distinction between the CMT and biblical minimalism, sourced with the relevant Goguel quote I think makes this clear. Any chance of bringing you on board? (We could alter the graphic's wording if needed.) Eugene (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Ari on this point (the spectrum). On second thoughts, I think I'll wait for more knowledge. Anthony (talk) 17:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Re: Other meanings for the term CMT. Can I suggest we build an editable list of authors' names, each linked to a subpage (e.g., Talk:Christ_myth_theory/Dodd) which contains brief quotes from the author demonstrating the author's usage of CMT, each followed by a neat citation like those in the FAQ, followed by a brief explanation, if necessary. This would help me (and everybody, I think) develop a clearer picture of usage. Once we've built a stable picture of historical and contemporary usage of the term, it could then migrate to the FAQ. At the moment there are diverse discussions going back 2 or more years on this. Anthony (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
One example of the pure "Jesus never existed" theory: Arthur Drews
In a discussion above, this was said:
Virtually all sources use CMT to describe the position that "Jesus didn't exist in any shape way or form". NJMauthor (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Which is practically a reductio ad absurdum. Which academic source in his right mind would confidently assert that? Price doesn't, Wells doesn't. Does anyone? SlimVirgin talk contribs 22:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Arthur Drews was a German academic who debated and wrote books about the Christ myth theory. One of his books, translated into English was, in fact, titled The Christ Myth Theory Here's a 1911 review of the book in The New York Times [25]. The second paragraph of the review describes Drews' position:
[H]is thesis is, that the Jesus of the Gospels never existed, and that the characteristics attributed to this non-existent personage are derived from Jewish ideals floating in the air at the time, which were supposed to be realized by the hero of the Gospels. This mythical personage was transformed into a demigod by St. Paul, whom the author, in a way, regards as virtually the creator of Christianity. His main grounds for disbelief in the existence of Jesus are the absence of any contemporary references to him except in the Gospels [...]
This is one of a number of articles [26] the Times wrote about Drews.
Here [27] is the (hilarious in parts) article in the Times that describes the uproarious debate Drews had with other academics in 1910. I'm sure we'll all be happy to know that our article, although it doesn't cite this news article directly, gives an accurate summary of it, including the part about the woman standing on the chair invoking God to strike Drews and various women being "carried from the hall, shrieking hysterically". The Times reported that Drew "caused a public sensation by plastering the billboards of the town with posters propounding the startling question: 'Did Jesus Christ ever exist?'" The reporter was very clear about Drews' position:
The gist of his position was in a large measure like the mythical theory of David Strauss, which created a sensation fifty years ago. Strauss held that there was verily a historic Christ, but that a vast mass of miracle and supernatural wonders had been woven like wreaths around the head of Jesus. Drews goes further. He alleges that there never was such a person as Jesus of Nazareth."
The title of this article, from the February 6, 1910 edition of the paper:
- JESUS NEVER LIVED,
- ASSERTS PROF. DREWS
The Times certainly isn't infallable, but it doesn't appear to have been interested in getting Drews' position wrong in order to advance some evangelical agenda. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Our article used to cite the NYT article you mention. I don't know why it's gone. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it's still there—footnote #49, listed in the bibliography under author "unknown." --Akhilleus (talk) 03:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, now I get it. My mistake. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Still good to bring it up. After all, Drews' book The Christ-Myth is where the title of this article ultimately comes from; his is a particularly prominent version of the theory. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec with Bruce, below) Yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think, in light of some of the discussions on this page, this brief 1914 review [28] of one of the books written in reaction to Drews' volume is interesting, in light of SV's statement above. The reviewer mentions reductio ad absurdum and also considers the polemical uses the "Christ myth theory" has (or had) for the "conservative" side of the debate over the "picture of an historic Christ stripped of supernatural attributes". In the same way, athiests in debate will stress quotes or anecdotes about the oddest, most extreme fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Christians. It's a very old debating tactic. Of course, that doesn't mean fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Christians (and some embarassing things done by some of them) don't exist. In just the same way, Drews' position exists. (In terms of how meaningful it is to separate it from the very close position that myth may have been wrapped around an actual human person, perhaps one who was a strikingly popular preacher, I don't know enough about the issue to say.) -- JohnWBarber (talk) 05:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Still good to bring it up. After all, Drews' book The Christ-Myth is where the title of this article ultimately comes from; his is a particularly prominent version of the theory. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, now I get it. My mistake. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting New York Times article. Professor Baron von Soden's position that "even if it were firmly proved that no such person as Jesus every existed, that would hardly injure the heart and core of the Christian religion" is a total non sequitur. The Christian religion depends not only Jesus existed but that he was what the Bible says he was. Finding Jesus' actual bones (proving beyond all rational doubt he existed) would be nearly devastating to the Christian religion as finding proof that Jesus as we known him from the Gospels didn't exist. I like to use David Kusche's comment about what has the biggest hoax of the 20th century--the Bermuda Triangle: "Say I claim that a parrot has been kidnapped to teach aliens human language and I challenge you to prove that is not true. You can even use Einstein's Theory of Relativity if you like. There is simply no way to prove such a claim untrue. The burden of proof should be on the people who make these statements, to show where they got their information from, to see if their conclusions and interpretations are valid, and if they have left anything out."--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just pointing out some really bizarre logic by Baron von Soden. Also David Kusche's position on the Bermuda Triangle echos the more rational of the Christ Myth Theorists regarding the evidence of Jesus outside the New Testament which when you get right down to it has quality problems. Never mind the Gospel timeline itself is such a train wreck that some historical Jesus supporters go to such extremes that it is hard to take them or their position seriously. Let's face it; some of the whole Herod the Great, Quirinius, Quinctilius Varus handwaving is jaw droppingly goofy--a previous census that no one seems to know of with both the guys running the area so incompetent that Rome had call somebody who was fighting a war in the Pamphylia-Galatia province and who would have had to go through either the Cappadocia province to the north or the Lycia and Cilcia provinces to the south to even reach the area in to manage things.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I am sticking to the article showing that the contention that Christ Myth theory having one definition and only definition is a bunch of WP:SYN and WP:OR garbage. I should point out that as a "pastor of the First Baptist Church of Granada Hills" you have a very clear WP:COI with regard to this article and the definition of Christ Myth Theory.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you have the exact text for The reviewer mentions reductio ad absurdum and also considers the polemical uses the "Christ myth theory" has (or had) for the "conservative" side of the debate, John? The link in your post above takes me to a Google snippet view. Anthony (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC) Or the issue or page number. The journal (I think it's the same one) is available here. Anthony (talk) 06:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- This source, page 513 & 615. B. B. Warfield made basically the same observation in the same journal here. Eugene (talk) 06:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. (Missed that. It was off my small screen.) Links to the 1914 review of Drew's The Christ Myth: Beginning of review reductio ad absurdum. The Warfield link didn't work for me. Do you have the Vol, issue, page numbers for that Eugene? Anthony (talk) 14:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's in the article's references: Warfield, Benjamin B. (1913), "book review of The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus by Arthur Drews", The Princeton Theological Review 11 (2): 293–300 Eugene (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Eugene. Link to Warfield's 1913 review of the sequel to The Christ Myth.
Akhilleus: "After all, Drews' book The Christ-Myth is where the title of this article ultimately comes from; his is a particularly prominent version of the theory." (From higher in this thread) How do you mean, Akhilleus? Anthony (talk) 17:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I mean that if you were looking for a poster boy for the CMT, it's Drews. His book gives the theory its name; he was the most visible advocate in the first half of the 20th century. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
So, before 1910, were the terms "Christ myth" or even "Christ myth theory" (if it was ever uttered) used differently? Was it Drews' use that gave it the meaning we now find in the FAQ? Anthony (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I doubt that the term "Christ myth theory" was used before Drews' book was translated into English. The phrase "Christ myth" can mean a lot of things, including the story of Jesus' birth, life, and death. But this article isn't about a phrase; it's about a set of ideas, the central one of which is that there was no historical Jesus. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- "But this article isn't about a phrase; it's about a set of ideas, the central one of which is that there was no historical Jesus." Sorry, Akhilleus that is clear WP:SYN which is not allowed and as an adminstrator you should know that.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, I know that very well. Which is why I think the article should stick very closely to how secondary sources cover this subject; to repeat myself for the 1000th time, those sources are Schweitzer, Case, Goguel, Hoffman, Van Voorst, Bennett, Weaver, etc., each of whom say that Drews said there was no historical Jesus. So does G.A. Wells, in his most recent book, Cutting Jesus down to size, p. 272: "Even more alarmingly, Arthur Drews in Germany and John M. Robertson in England were, among others, maintaining that there had been no historical Jesus at all. Schweitzer did not accept that they had made out a convincing case, but as I have indicated he allowed that Christianity must reckon with the possibility of having to give of the historicity of Jesus, and must have a metaphysic in readiness for such a contingency, so as to base religion on mind, not on history." If secondary sources tell us that Drews denied the historicity of Jesus, it is original research to pick out quotes from Drews and say that he didn't deny Jesus' historicity. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- "But this article isn't about a phrase; it's about a set of ideas, the central one of which is that there was no historical Jesus." Sorry, Akhilleus that is clear WP:SYN which is not allowed and as an adminstrator you should know that.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
C.H. Dodd
I'm putting this in a separate section so it can be collapsed or archived if editors don't want this page cluttered up by long quotes. But since BruceGrubb has once again quoted Dodd, as he often does, I thought I'd give us a little more context for the quote. The source is C.H. Dodd, History and the Gospel (Charles Scribner's Sons, 1938). On pp. 16-17, Dodd writes:
Religions, again, have emerged out of the confluence of various currents of thought and spiritual life, without the decisive intervention of any historical teacher or leader. Their foundation is in ideas, not in events.
Attempts have indeed been made in recent times to represent Christianity as a religion of this last type. We have been told that in the period to which the origins of Christianity are to be assigned, the cross-fertilization of eastern and western thought led to the emergence of new forms of religion tending towards monotheism. They owed much to the 'mystery religions,' and derived from them the concept of a dying and rising Saviour-god. Groups of devotees practising this kind of religion in various forms arose throughout the Hellenistic world. Among them were groups which had relations with the Jewish religion, and some of these last came to identify their Saviour-god with the Jewish Messiah, and created for him a mythical embodiment in a figure bearing the cult-name "Jesus", derived from a Hebrew word meaning "salvation". Or alternatively, they seized upon the report of an obscure Jewish holy-man bearing this name, and arbitrarily attached the "cult-myth" to him. These groups were the nucleus of the Christian Church, which therefore owes its origin simply to the development of ideas in a Hellenistic milieu…
In this quote, Dodd describes two varieties of attempts to represent Christianity as a religion that emerged "without the decisive intervention of any historical teacher or leader," i.e. without a historical Jesus of Nazareth. The first variety is one in which the NT figure of Jesus is derived from a pre-existing cult which fused Hellenistic mystery religion and Jewish Messianism into a pre-Christian cult of a mythical figure "Jesus"—this is essentially what Arthur Drews argued. The second variety is one in which a Messianic "cult-myth" is arbitrarily attached to "an obscure Jewish holy-man bearing this name." Dodd has already said that he's discussing an attempt to represent Christianity as a religion without decisive influence by a historical teacher, and one with a foundation in "ideas, not events," so the "obscure Jewish holy-man" cannot be Jesus of Nazareth (who would not be "obscure" in any case). This is a variety of the theory in which traces the Gospel figure of Jesus not to the historical Jesus of Nazareth but to a different person living in a different time. John M. Robertson's idea that a "less significant basis for early Christian belief may have been the executed Jesus Pandira, placed by the Talmud in about 100 BC" (the quote is from the current version of our article) is one example of this theory; John Allegro's idea that the Gospel Jesus may have been based on the Essene Teacher of Righteousness might be regarded as another, although he postdates Dodd and would have been unknown to him. But this quote is certainly not evidence that Dodd thinks there's a version of the "Christ myth theory" that acknowledges the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I understand what Dodd is saying, but not your interpretation. He seems clearly to be saying the mythicist approach has two angles, one involving historicity, the other not. SlimVirgin talk contribs 12:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, one angle involves historicity, but the historicity of a different person than Jesus of Nazareth. It's as if you said there was no real George Washington—the early Americans made him up—and part of the material they used in making him up was the life of one George Washingtown who lived from 1550-1614. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is why we need total clarity, in the lead, about what the "Myth" actually says. My understanding is that Dodd is saying "there was no Jesus of Nazareth, but some facts and legends about various other individuals that were known to history were retroactively plagiarised to make the Mythical Christ seem more human." This might be similar to Shakespeare basing his plays on actual historical persons, but then adding many layers of exaggerations, fabrications and outright lies to "add drama", and to get his message across. It’s also possible that much of the fabrication was added hundreds of years later, and not all of it was necessarily included in the original version of the gospels. I again propose that we start the lead with a line that says “CMT equals no historical Jesus at all”, and then we add the line “Other theories accept that parts of the gospels might have been based on historical events and persons, but that the gospel Jesus Christ is not a historical character.” Wdford (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- "My understanding is that Dodd is saying "there was no Jesus of Nazareth, but some facts and legends about various other individuals that were known to history were retroactively plagiarised to make the Mythical Christ seem more human." That's basically right, although I'm not sure that thinking of it "plagiarism" is the best way to go. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm all for making the definition in the lead more blunt and obvious: "The Christ myth theory is the theory that Jesus never existed." However, we already have a line that indicates that some myticists think Jesus is a fictional construct that has assimilated isolated, disconnected historical material to its collage: "They argue that, while some gospel material may have been drawn from one or more preachers who actually existed, these individuals were not in any sense the founder of Christianity". Again, this is a non-issue and Bruce's continued caterwauling about it, over the course of years (!), qualifies as disruptive editing. We have a lot of meaningful issues to address; let's not get sidetracked with this irrelevance. Eugene (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Could we skip the personal attacks, please? SlimVirgin talk contribs 18:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, my basic point here is that Bruce is misunderstanding or misrepresenting the quotes that he endlessly copy-pastes to the talk page and various noticeboards. It's a distraction, but there's always the possibility that we can make it a productive distraction by making the lead explain the article's subject better. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I haven't seen the context for the above quote but, as it stands, Dodd doesn't rule out the possibility that his "obscure Jewish holy man" was Jesus of Nazareth, the brother of James, who never said a word or did a thing ascribed to him by the Christians. I.e., there was a Jesus of Nazareth but, as just another obscure Jewish zealot, nothing he said or did, except maybe getting crucified for ransacking the temple, left an imprint on the religion named after him. Far-fetched, but that's the territory. Anthony (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the context of DHere is Dodd as it appears in Google books.
- Mack shows just how bogus the positions of Akhilleus and Eugeneacurry are:
"As for the story of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, Mark took the basic ideas from the Christ myth but dared to imagine how the crucifixion and of the Christ might look if played out as a historical even in Jerusalem, something the Christ myth resisted. [...] Ever after, Christians would imagine Mark's fiction as history and allow this erasure of the time as a wink in the mind of Israel's God." (Mack, Burton L. (1996) Who wrote the New Testament? pg 152)
- Here is one from Schweitzer followed by a direct quote of the man he is talking about:
"I especially wanted to explain late Jewish eschatology more thoroughly and to discuss the works of John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, James George Frazer, Arthur Drews, and others, who contested the historical existence of Jesus." (Schweitzer (1931) Out of My Life and Thought page 125) But "my theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth" Frazer, Sir James George (1913) The golden bough: a study in magic and religion, Volume 9 pg 412
- Here is Weaver talking about Drews and the Jesus myth:
"In the first and second editions of his work Drews noted that his purpose was to show that everything about the historical Jesus has a mythical character and thus it was not necessary to presuppose that a historical figure ever existed." pg 50. Further along Weaver says "A second part of the book took up the Christian Jesus. The Jesus myth had been in existence a very long time in one form or another, but it was only in the appearance of the tentmaker of Tarsus, Paul, that Jesus community separated from Judaism took root." pg 52 (Weaver, Walter P. (1999) The historical Jesus in the twentieth century, 1900-1950
- Again and again you you can find exceptions to the particular slant Akhilleus and others have wanted to put on this article from the get go proving beyond any reasonable doubt that this article is a mixture of WP:SYN and WP:OR.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- As I said before "J. Reuben Clark: Selected Papers on Americanism and National Affairs" 1987 by University of California and later Brigham Young University from from 129 on might help. Speaking of help I finally found an online version of Drews book as well as other Christ myth material. I am providing the links so others can read them as well (some of this is non scholar but it does give a snapshot of how they viewed the term Christ Myth at that time):
Drews The Christ Myth: "...no opening exists for seeking an historical figure behind the Christ myth" pg 19. So here we see even Drews using Christ Myth in a different manner from how this article uses it.
Evans, Elizabeth Edson Gibson "The Christ myth" (not as good as I had hoped but it does provide a snapshot of non scholar views of the idea c1900 for what it is worth)
Mangasarian, Managasar Mugwiditch, (1909) The truth about Jesus. Is he a myth? Independent religious society; contributor: Princeton Theological Seminary Library. "A myth is a fanciful explanation of a given phenomenon." Else where this books says "Origin, for instance, in his reply to the rationalist Celsus who questioned the reality of Jesus, instead of producing evidence of a historical nature, appealed to the mythology of the pagans to prove that the story of Jesus was no more incredible than those of the Greek and Roman gods.
Robertson, J. M. (John Mackinnon) (1917) The Jesus problem; a restatement of the myth theory
Rossington, Herbert J (1911) Did Jesus really live? a reply to The Christ myth rebuttal to Drews
- Hope these links help.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
New lead section
Based on the discussion above, and the many reliable sources quoted, I propose the following as the new first paragraph of the lead section:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed, in any form at all. Any theory which holds that a historical Jesus did exist, however different from the Divine Being as portrayed by the gospels, is not considered to be part of the Christ myth theory.
Can we agree on this, or is further modification required? Wdford (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Looks good to me, except that I'm a little unclear as to the meaning of "Jesus of Nazareth never existed". Do you mean a person by that name? Like there was nobody living in 1st century Nazareth by the name of Jesus? Anthony (talk) 19:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I would be opposed to that lead for a number of reasons, primarily because it's OR, and because of the Divine Being issue. We need to find a definition in a reliable source we can agree on, and use that, and if there are a number of definitions say so, but we can't make one up. SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Can you help me with the meaning of "Jesus of Nazareth never existed" SV? Anthony (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- It has a number of meanings, as you've been pointing out. Adding "in any form at all" doesn't clarify things. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Anybody else? Anthony (talk) 19:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) The normal way of writing about contentious ideas on WP is to introduce them with a description of the theory or concept; who says that it says this; and when it was first used. I've been asking for that information since I first looked at this article, and I've been looking around myself for sources, and so far no one's been able to tell me anything about the history of the term. That should be our starting place. Who first used it, how, and in what context; who picked it up, how did it develop, and who uses it now to mean what? SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I like it. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, SV. Akhilleus seems to to think Drews, in his book "The Christ myth theory" (1910 I think) which was all over the papers in Europe and America being touted as "the thesis that Jesus of Nazareth never existed" played a role. Bruce, who seems to have a pretty good grip on this, thinks the term emphasized the prior myth aspect but began to be displaced by this "Jesus of Nazareth never existed" idea by the thirties. I'm probably terribly misquoting them, but that's the beginnings of a history forming. It seems some important contributors to the Historical Jesus debate may continue to use the term simply to mean a preexisting myth was draped over some man. Anyway, it's slowly taking shape. I think steady, polite, scholarly will get us there. Anthony (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just looking at the 20th century, we have Elizabeth Evans's The Christ Myth in 1900 that predates Drews's use of the expression (his book was called The Christ Myth too btw). SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I wonder if her thesis could be characterised as "Jesus never existed"?
- What about you, Bill? Care to have a crack at explaining what "Jesus of Nazareth never existed" means? See, I can't imagine anyone, anyone would propose there was no Jesus of Nazareth in the early years of the 1st century. Personally, I'd bet there were hundreds. Anthony (talk) 20:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it was, but my interest is only in her use of the term at present. I'd like to know where the expression "Christ myth" originated. SlimVirgin talk contribs 20:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Me too. Anthony (talk) 20:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Folks, the lead is supposed to summarise the material in the article, not wallow over every detail all over again. And as it already says in the body of the article - the primary forerunners of the non-historicity hypothesis are usually identified as two thinkers of the French Enlightenment, Constantin-François Chassebœuf, known as Volney, and Charles François Dupuis. In works published in the 1790s, both argued that numerous ancient myths, including the life of Jesus, were based on the movement of the sun through the zodiac.
- To quote Dupuis: "Jesus is still less man than God. He is, like all the deities that men have adored, the sun; Christianity is a solar myth. When we shall have shown that the pretended history of a God, who is born of a virgin in the winter solstice, who is resuscitated at Easter or at the Vernal equinox, after having descended into hell, who brings with Him a retinue of twelve apostles whose chief possesses all the attributes of Janus—a God, conqueror of the prince of darkness, who translates mankind into the empire of light, and who heals the woes of the world, is only a solar fable, ... it will be almost as unnecessary to inquire whether there was a man called Christ as it is to inquire whether some prince is called Hercules. Provided that it be proven that the being consecrated by worship under the name of Christ is the sun, and that the miraculous element in the legend or the poem has this star for its object, then it will appear proven that the Christians are but sun-worshippers, and that their priests have the same religion as those of Peru, whose throats they have cut." [2]
- No. The problem is as basic as it gets on Wikipedia. What is the history of the term and it's various meanings. Check out Hippocampus and Limbic lobe. Meanwhile, Wdford,
can you explain to me what kind of person would assert there never was a Jesus of Nazareth?Actually, just tell me what it means. Anthony (talk) 20:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see why people are having such difficulty with this. What's unclear about "Jesus of Nazareth never existed as a historical person," or something similar? Is "the Jesus of the Gospels is a fictional character" unclear? --Akhilleus (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hundreds of them did. It was a very popular name at the time in question. Nobody would assert that or waste a minute trying to prove/refute it. Anthony (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- The term Jesus of Nazareth is wikilinked in the lead sentence to another article that describes in excruciating detail, exactly which Jesus is being referred to here. Antony's (apparent) point seems to imply that nobody can ever say "Harry Potter from the Rowling stories is not real" in case some guy with glasses named Harry Potter crawls out of the woodwork and suggests that he was the inspiration for it all. Wdford (talk) 22:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't really understand the point. When someone refers to JoN, unless a distinction is made, the normal interpretation is that he was the son of Joseph/Mary, brother of James, etc., and as presented in the gospels. Is there anyone who would think of Jesus the baseball player when referencing JoN? Am I missing something? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Now we're getting somewhere. So that is it? The proposition that no brothers named Jesus and James whose parents were named Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth what? 100 BCE to 40 CE? Would that cover it? Anthony (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm fully with Akhilleus at this point. I don't at all understand the reference to Hippocampus and Limbic lobe. However, what Dupuis was saying is that (in his own personal opinion) the "gospel Jesus" never existed as a historical person, and that the gospel stories are an allegory of the changing seasons and such. Whether he was right or not is a separate issue, but it seems that this was the beginning of the "Myth" thesis, and that Dupuis was the first recorded person to have used the term "Myth" in this particular context, in modern times. However, it's possible that the heretics of earlier centuries had a similar belief, but that their views have not been recorded. If we can find an earlier "heretic" version then that will take precedence, but until then, let's go with Dupuis as the originator of the concept of the "Christ Myth Theory". SlimVirgin, are you with us? Wdford (talk) 21:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah. Okay. What does "gospel Jesus" mean?
- Hippocampus and limbic lobe were to point out they both describe the origin and evolution of the term. In the case of limbic lobe, there are two different meanings in use currently. This is all explained clearly and, in the case of Hippocampus, concisely and elegantly. Where is that in this article? Anthony (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Antony, the gospels only mention one person named Jesus, so that's the guy we mean. If you haven't read the gospels, its a long story, but try the article Jesus and history for a good selection of summarised background. As regards describing the origin and evolution of the term, that's what this entire huge article is about. We know it's not doing a great job in its current form, and thus we strive to improve it. However, to repeat all 157 existing Jesus-related articles would be impractical, so we cross-reference them all to each other and we focus only on specific issues in each article. Explaining "What does "gospel Jesus" mean" is not the crux of this particular article. If you have a specific issue, please state it clearly, so that we can better understand your confusion. Wdford (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, Wdford, that is exactly my point. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, sorry, I'm not. Look, if someone ever wants to bring this article to FAC again, you need to know everything about your subject nowadays to get it through the process. You need to live, breathe, and sleep it. To bring an issue to FAC and not know its history isn't on. In tracking down the history, the development of the idea will become obvious (A used it to mean X, B used it to mean Y, C meant something in between), so we won't need any more guesswork. SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just to address your heresy point, Michael Grant talks about docetism, the early idea that Jesus had no corporeal existence and only seemed to exist, but did exist as pure spirit, and that the skepticism was taken further by the Christ myth theory. SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Although I think it would be nice to have an article that I participated in creating reach FA status, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. And if it is ever put up for FAC, it's not going to be for a long time (perhaps not even this year!). However, your point about living, breathing, and sleeping it is really good advice - especially about a serious (and often confusing) topic as this one is. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Excellent - let's add docetism to the lead as well. OK, so how about if we just concentrated for now on fixing up the article so as to give the average reader a decent representation of the Myth, and we leave the FAC for later? It doesn't all have to be done in a single phase, does it? Wdford (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- What does docetism have to do with this article? I mean, even a pure spirit means existence, right? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Precisely. Docetism and the CMT are not exactly the same, because the CMT says there was no Jesus at all to begin with, and docetism says that Jesus was a sort of hologram that pretended to be human (and seemingly fooled most of the people most of the time). However CMT and docetism are somewhat related, even though only at the level of "the gospel stories are not reliable biographies of a historical human", so its probably worth adding docetism into the second sentence in the lead, which attempts to clarify the definition. Wdford (talk) 23:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have no problem with including docetism in the lead of the article (depending on how it is phrased), but only in order to make it clearer what this article is and isn't about (i.e., that there was no historical Jesus, even a Jesus who was purely a spirit or "hologram"). So, to include it in the lead is not warranted unless it serves to make it clear that the CMT is about the non-existence of a real person. I mean, even a hologram that had a great effect on history is still "historical". Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 01:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
The phrase "Christ-myth" was used in The Contemporary Review, Volume 30, in 1877: "But what of the historical Jesus of Nazareth? Is He not disappearing from the world, criticized away and dissolved into a Christ-myth?" Eugene (talk) 05:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Except is is clear in context that Christ-myth in this source is being used in the way John Remsburg used it some 30 years later--talking about the mythological story involving Jesus. Mark above similar uses Christ Myth in this manner. This just shows the problem the article has.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Not really. It shows that some people are confused. This article isn't about a sequence of words. "Christ myth" can mean the story of the Gospels. So what? --Akhilleus (talk) 14:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- So you admit that "Christ myth Theory" can mean something else besides Jesus didn't exist in any shape way or form which is the point I have been raising for three freaking years.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Not really. It shows that some people are confused. This article isn't about a sequence of words. "Christ myth" can mean the story of the Gospels. So what? --Akhilleus (talk) 14:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, Bruce. The phrase "Christ myth" can mean lots of stuff. But "Christ myth theory" is a slightly different phrase, you know? And we have a lot of reliable sources telling us what that means. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- We don't write articles about phrases, we write them about meaningful concepts. The phrase "Big Bang" can refer to any number of wholly unrelated things, but there is no point in writing an article about all the meanings that "Big Bang", or even "Big Bang theory", can have. There are any number of comparable examples. Try applying your challenge to them to see how absurd it is ("So you admit that "Big Bang Theory" can mean something else besides the universe came into being at a point in space-time..."). We all know that Christ Myth theory labels a meaningful cincept. The fact that the phrase "Christ myth" can be used to refer to other things is as irrelevant as the fact that "Holocaust" can refer to events other thsn Nazi mass murder, or that Impressionism can be used to refer to more than sketchy paintings. Paul B (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to follow, but I cannot for the life of me understand the reason behind defining CMT in a way very different to its ordinary and consistent use in the literature. I am with Akhilleus on this and I am finding it hard to imagine otherwise. --Ari (talk) 00:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
New lead section II
We are going in circles again. I propose the following as the opening paragraph, wherein I try to make it abundantly clear what is and is not included in the CMT.
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed, in any form at all. Any theory which holds that a historical Jesus did exist, regardless of the level of influence the historical character may have had, is not considered to be part of the Christ myth theory.
If you wish to tweak it, please do so. If you have a different proposal, please state it. But let's try to make actual progress. Wdford (talk) 08:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't fit with Dodds definition nor Drews "...no opening exists for seeking an historical figure behind the Christ myth" in the online version of Christ Myth I found. Here is how I would word it:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth was largely if not entirely based on a pre-existing "Christ"/son diety mythology. The theory ranges from Jesus not existing in any shape, way, or form to him at best being a composite character for whom key events of the Biblical Jesus (such as the crucifixion) did not happen.
- This address things like Dodds, Drew's reference of a historical person non being behind the Christ Myth and why Price called Wells a "successor to the Christ myth theorists" on the back of a book that has both a mythic Paul Christ and a somewhat historical Gospel Christ. In short this addresses all the terminology and definition problems that have plagued this article form the get go.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks for that Bruce. Folks, does Bruce's wording fit with all the various sources previously discussed? If not, what further alternative wording should we consider please? Wdford (talk)
- No, it doesn't work. Bruce's assertion that there is a range of theories is incorrect. The essential element of the CMT is the argument that there was no historical Jesus; this is obvious from the large number of sources cited in FAQ #1. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, so it seems that different reliable sources have different understandings of what exactly the CMT actually is. Seemingly the majority of them hold that there was no historical character at all, but a few understand the CMT to include the possibility of a historical base figure. How do we word the opening paragraph so as to properly reflect this situation? Wdford (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- "OK, so it seems that different reliable sources have different understandings of what exactly the CMT actually is." This isn't correct. The sources have the same understand of what the CMT is; a theory (or group of theories, if you like) united by the idea that there was no historical Jesus. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- On that basis, how about the following:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a specific historical character. A minority of proponents believe in addition that some of the non-key events currently ascribed to the Jesus figure may have actually happened to various historical but completely unrelated individuals.
- Akhilleus is not going to agree to anything outside of the Jesus didn't exist in anyway, shape, or form definition no matter what indication from any reliable source that that is not the case. Three years ago I threw the gauntlet of a source that directly and expressly explained how Dodd's and the other non complient definitions fitted into this and to date nothing has been provided.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, I won't agree to a definition that doesn't say that the CMT is the argument that there was no historical Jesus. That's because we have plenty of reliable sources that define it in exactly that way. Dodd's definition fits exactly, but even if it didn't, there's still far more reliable sources that define it in this way. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry Akhilleus, but the the above doens't agree with your interpritation of Dodd and admition that even if it is being read the way I and severla otherare reasin it ides not valid despite beign a university press --BruceGrubb (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)is getting very close to POV pushing.
- I would avoid the use of "specific historical character" since the word "character" could be misunderstood. I'd try "The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person, ..." The second part of the sentence needs to explain what the CMT puts in the place of the historical Jesus. "but is a fictional/mythological character created by the early Christian community." might work. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Good suggestion. So now we have:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person, but is a fictional/mythological character created by the early Christian community. A minority of proponents believe in addition that some of the non-key events currently ascribed to the Jesus figure may have actually happened to various historical but completely unrelated individuals.
Bruce, Akhilleus, Eugene, SlimVirgin, Anyone - your further improvements, please? Wdford (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- How about "The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth was largely if not entirely based on a pre-existing "Christ"/sun deity mythology." and just throw out that somewhat awkward second sentence. If you honestly look at every version of what has been referred or called "Christ myth theory" this is likely the best fit. The "largely" addresses stuff like Dodd and Price calling Wells' Jesus Myth (1998) and later mythical Paul + historical Q "Christ myth theory" twice (1999/2000 and 2002)--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- How about this minor rewording of the second sentence to make it flow better?
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person, but is a fictional/mythological character created by the early Christian community. Additionally, a minority of proponents believe that some of the non-key events currently ascribed to the Jesus figure may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals.
- I think it reads better this way. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Bill's language looks like the best so far, and this improves on the current lead. I'd rather remove the slash mark and replace it with "or" (fictional or mythological) and I don't like "non-key", which is ungainly. I'm not sure why we need to use it or any other word to characterize "events". Rather than "currently ascribed" I'd say "ascribed in the New Testament". And why say "a minority of proponents" rather than "some proponents"? It should be all right to use "some" when we give their names further down in the article. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Excellent. We now have:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person, but is a fictional or mythological character created by the early Christian community. Additionally, some proponents believe that some of the events ascribed to the Jesus figure in the New Testament may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals.
Can we agree on this as the opening paragraph, or are there any further suggestions for improvement? Wdford (talk) 06:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think that is pretty clear and reads well. Certainly covers my reading on the subject. Allegro does talk about a possible historical character at the basis of christianity. Sophia ♫ 07:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Except it just move the problem to another place. "Mythological" has a layman definition (false story) that does not always mesh with scholarly definitions. Kirk, Geoffrey Stephen (1970) "Myth: its meaning and functions in ancient and other cultures" Cambridge University Press goes into great detail on this but if you are not up to reading the whole book Remsburg wrote much the same thing in his The Christ. I should mention that G. R. S. Mead and Ellegard have also presented historical characters at the basis of Christianity though about 100 to 200 years earlier then the time the Gospel Jesus supposedly lived and even Wells "mythical" Paul Jesus has possible historical underpinning c100 BCE.
- Even people who feel there was a "historical" Jesus feel nothing useful can be pulled from the Gospels about what he really did or said ie the Gospel Jesus is a myth. For example, Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion flat out said "It is even possible to mount a serious, though not widely supported, historical case that Jesus never lived at all. [...] Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in general regard the New Testaments (and obviously not the Old Testament) as a reliable record of what actually happened in history..." and a little further on the same page he states "The only difference between the Da Vinci Code and the gospel is that the gospels are ancient fiction while The Da Vinci Code is modern fiction." (pg 97) Worsley, Peter in his "The trumpet shall sound: a study of cargo cults in Melanesia" (1968) which was quoted and sited in the University of Wollongong Thesis collection said "Belief in Christ is no more or less rational than belief in John Frum" ("The trumpet shall sound: a study of cargo cults in Melanesia" (1968).--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- However, the "different place" that the problem will be moved to is the wikipedia article on Mythology, where this can be thrashed out in separate detail, and to which this sentence can be wikilinked. Apart from inserting that wikilink on "mythological", is everyone now happy with the wording of the opening paragraph? Wdford (talk) 09:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I think the change is fine. For the sake of clarity though, should we add the phrase "at all" to make things as obvious as possible for the drive-by reviewers of the article?
The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person at all, but is a fictional or mythological character created by the early Christian community. Additionally, some proponents believe that some of the events ascribed to the Jesus figure in the New Testament may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals.
Two different university published books use the phrase "at all" (Meynell & Bacon in FAQ #1). Eugene (talk) 13:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- In serious argument, belief doesn't come into it. Some proponents assert, or some proponents propose, maybe. And did/do some proponents propose (some of) the sayings of Jesus of Nazareth may have originated with an anonymous person, or do they just allow some events? Anthony (talk) 16:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Some CMT advocates think that a few of Jesus' teachings were drawn from a random grab-bag of hellenistic witticisms. See my comments on Bart Simpson in FAQ #1. Eugene (talk) 17:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Cool. And "some proponents believe"? Anthony (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think objecting to the phrase "some proponents believe" is straining at gnats. This use of the word "believe" is quite common in academic literature and I just don't understand why some of the editors here are so leery of it. This just seems like one more non-issue that distracts from more meaningful conversation. I don't really care if you swap "believe" for something else, but the word "argue" appears so many times already in the article that I'd rather not throw another instance of it on the pile. Eugene (talk) 17:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- In serious argument, belief doesn't come into it. Some proponents assert, or some proponents propose, maybe. And did/do some proponents propose (some of) the sayings of Jesus of Nazareth may have originated with an anonymous person, or do they just allow some events? Anthony (talk) 16:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Wells' with his Q-Jesus was historical but Paul's Jesus was mythical or at best dates form some 100 years previously position "is eminently successor to radical Christ myth theorists" (Price, back of Can we trust the New Testament?) so the at all clearly doesn't belong. Furthermore Wells position on Paul's Jesus being a mythical person fit both Dodd's and the Welch's ("The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory") definitions. If fact, Welch gives us a headache because the full quote is "The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory." but Wells gives us BOTH-- a Jesus that was originally a myth (Paul's) and an historical individual with Q.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) Yes, Wells' current position is complex in relation to the definition. But his section in the article already notes the complexity so I don't think that anyone will be confused. As for Price's comment you mention, one can be a "successor" to a movement without being the scion of the movement; to take some extreme examples: the Third Reich was the "successor" to the Weimar Republic, just as the Soviets were the "successors" to the Romanovs. In any event, Price himself defines the Christ myth theory, on multiple occasions, in very stark terms:
- "Though [Charles Guignebert] could not accept either the Christ myth theory, which held that no historical Jesus existed, or the Dutch Radical denial that Paul authored any of the epistles, Guignebert took both quite seriously."
- Robert M. Price, in Tom Flynn, The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2007) p. 372
- "...the pure Christ-Myth theory: that there had never been a historical Jesus at the root of the full-blown mythical Christology."
- Robert M. Price, Deconstructing Jesus (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2000) p. 220
Now I've resisted mentioning this (it seems a bit unsportsmanlike), but even if you could produce a quote by Robert Price saying exactly what you wanted--something like "the Christ myth theory is the belief that Jesus wasn't very important and most of the gospels are made up but that there's probably some guy buried down there somewhere"--I'm not really sure that would affect how the article defines the theory. After all, WP:IRS states that "questionable sources", that is "publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature", are "generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties". Given that Price is not an academic, that his views are widely considered extremist, and that Prometheus (his go-to publisher--but see note) is certainly a publishing house with a decidedly "promotional" nature (it's essentially the Freethought equivalent of Harvest House), I'm not even sure that most of his relevant published stuff qualifies as a reliable source. So while I'm fine with letting him define himself, I'm not at all willing to allow him to contradict a major-league university professor publishing through a major-league university press on something as fundamental to this article as the definition that appears in the lead and the definition section. Eugene (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Note: To be fair (*snicker*) I've found one place where Price sketches out his views on the Christ myth theory in a book by the mainstream publisher Macmillian. If you'd like to use this source in Price's section, (please oh please) go right ahead. Only, I think that in that case there are some better pictures we could use as well. (Man, N. T. Wright's got to be jealous of that mitre.) Eugene (talk) 18:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC))
- Eugene, if I see you disparage a living person again, I'm going to consider asking that you be topic-banned. I'm thinking in particular of your upload of an unflattering Price image, then pretending it had been released when you knew it hadn't. Plus all the rest. Time to stop, please. SlimVirgin talk contribs 16:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Dang Eugene!!! Those images just about burned out my video card. You could have least provided a warning that those images could cause hardware failure. :) This image (for the guys) is much more...pleasing to the eyes. I'm guessing the lady editors here would like something like this. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill the Cat 7 (talk • contribs)
New lead section III
Excellent. The vast majority of reliable sources are using CMT to mean "No Jesus existed in history". There are a very few who expand that definition in various "nuances", but those can be mentioned as nuances. We seem to have a degree of consensus on the first paragraph, which sets out the definition, as follows:
- The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person at all, but is a fictional or mythological character created by the early Christian community. Additionally, some proponents believe that some of the events or sayings ascribed to the Jesus figure in the New Testament may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals.
To flesh out the rest of the lead section, we need a paragraph on the history of the Theory, a brief elaboration of the Theory itself, and a paragraph that says the Theory is not generally accepted by the maintream. What goes into paragraph 2 - the history or the elaboration? Wdford (talk) 09:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the current lead contains a lot of valuable info so I'd just keep most of it. The RfC on Martin's comment is leaning decidedly towards removing his quote and I never really like Dunn's quote there either. So how about this (assuming the RfC closes in favor of removing Martin):
The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the argument that Jesus of Nazareth never actually existed as a historical person at all, but is a fictional or mythological character created by the early Christian community. Additionally, some proponents believe that some of the events or sayings ascribed to the Jesus figure in the New Testament may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals.[3]
Proponents of the theory emphasize the absence of extant reference to Jesus during his lifetime, and the scarcity of non-Christian reference to him in the first century. They give priority to the epistles over the gospels in determining the views of the earliest Christians, and draw on perceived parallels between the biography of Jesus and those of Greek, Egyptian, and Roman gods. They argue that, while some gospel material may have been drawn from one or more preachers who actually existed, these individuals were not in any sense the founder of Christianity; rather, they contend that Christianity emerged organically from Hellenistic Judaism.[4]
The history of the idea can be traced to the French Enlightenment thinkers Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 1790s. More recent academic advocates include the 19th-century theologian Bruno Bauer and the 20th-century philosopher Arthur Drews. Writers such as G.A. Wells, Robert M. Price, and Earl Doherty have re-popularized the idea in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.
The hypothesis has at times attracted a great deal of scholarly attention, but it nevertheless remains essentially without support among biblical scholars and classical historians.[5] The New Testament scholar Graham Stanton writes that nearly all historians today accept that Jesus existed, and that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John contain valuable evidence about him.[6]
- I'd also like to add something like "a number of scholars have gone so far as to label the theory 'pseudoscholarship'" somewhere. The statement would of course be referenced with the Brunner, Sloyan, and McClymond sources. Eugene (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- You won't get "pseudoscholarship" past GA and I doubt it will stay in the article more than 5 minutes. You have made a persuasive case for "fringe" which has yet to be effectively challenged but, though nearly all scholars accept that Jesus did exist, a handful do not; ergo, it is not pseudohistory. Unless you can name the handful of members of major learned societies and explain why their work is not history. And "belief" is still wrong. Anthony (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2010 (UTC) (ec) Can't "...some proponents believe that some of the events or sayings ascribed to the Jesus figure in the New Testament may have actually happened to various historical, but completely unrelated, individuals." be merged with "...while some gospel material may have been drawn from one or more preachers who actually existed, these individuals were not in any sense the founder of Christianity..." Anthony (talk) 16:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I oppose removing the sole alternative voice. The lead will not be neutral without that. SlimVirgin talk contribs 16:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- ^ John Macquarrie, The Scope of Demythologizing: Bultmann and His Critics, London: SCM, 1960, p. 93
- ^ Dupuis, l'Origine de tous les cultes ou la religion Universelle, Paris, anno III (1794); Abrégé de l'origine de tous les cultes, Paris, anno VII (1798). View it at http://www.christianorigins.com/goguel/ch1.html
- ^ "Negative as these [hyper-minimalist] conclusions appear, they must be strictly distinguished from the theories of the mythologists. According to the critics whom we may term minimalists, Jesus did live, but his biography is almost totally unknown to us. The mythologists, on the other hand, declare that he never existed, and that his history, or more exactly the legend about him, is due to the working of various tendencies and events, such as the prophetic interpretation of Old Testament texts, visions, ecstasy, or the projection of the conditions under which the first group of Christians lived into the story of their reputed founder." Goguel 1926b, pp. 117–118
- "If this account of the matter is correct, one can also see why it is that the 'Christ-myth' theory, to the effect that there was no historical Jesus at all, has seemed so plausible to many," Meynell 1991, p. 166
- "Defense of Biblical criticism was not helped by the revival at this time of the 'Christ-Myth' theory, suggesting that Jesus had never existed, a suggestion rebutted in England by the radical but independent F. C. Conybeare." Horbury 2003, p. 55
- ^ Wells 1999a, p. 99
- ^ "No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we now know a considerable amount about his actions and his basic teachings." Charlesworth 2006, p. xxiii
- "I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus. There are a lot of people who want to write sensational books and make a lot of money who say Jesus didn't exist. But I don't know any serious scholar who doubts the existence of Jesus." Ehrman 2008
- "[T]he view that there was no historical Jesus, that his earthly existence is a fiction of earliest Christianity—a fiction only later made concrete by setting his life in the first century—is today almost totally rejected." Wells 1988, p. 218
- ^ "Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher." Stanton 2002, p. 145