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::I've added another source which says much the same as Neill. Both sources cite further sources on several of their points.--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 14:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
::I've added another source which says much the same as Neill. Both sources cite further sources on several of their points.--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 14:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:Yuck, this article is more biased than the catholic encyclopaedia. Seems like somebody is obsessed with romanising the history of eastern churches in wikipedia. The stories of Ahatallah's origin tied to Roman Church can all but be good imagination by Stephen Neill. |
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::This book clearly mentions that Ahatallah was Syriac Orthodox- http://books.google.co.in/books?id=sOrglHSX6rsC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=ahatallah&source=bl&ots=fBRdnjF-mq&sig=4R-jBtqCujLnqlathPp9aJTILeo&hl=en&ei=EE8jTMH8CcawrAfEibX2Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ahatallah&f=false Ahatallah's claims if any of being from the "Pope" should be taken with reference to the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch who was known as the Pope in eastern christendom. |
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[[User:Mathenkozhencherry|Mathenkozhencherry]] ([[User talk:Mathenkozhencherry|talk]]) 12:34, 24 June 2010 (UTC) |
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: Cuchullian has copy pasted the some pages of two books into wikipedia. I found the exact same material being plagiarised into more than two other low quality websites. The entire article needs to be re-written, and not just be exact copy pastes of materials from one book. |
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[[User:Mathenkozhencherry|Mathenkozhencherry]] ([[User talk:Mathenkozhencherry|talk]]) 12:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:From Catholic Encylopaeda: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14678a.htm#XVI |
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::''After the schism had broken out the intruder Ahatalla, a Mesopotamian prelate, was deported by the Portuguese, who took him by ship off Cochin and there lay at anchor. The Christians, coming to know of the fact, threatened to storm the fort, which the governor had to man with his soldiers, while the ship sailed away to Goa during the night.'' |
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::Catholic Encylopaedia fails to mention Ahatallah as one of his bishops, but simply calls him a "mesopotamian prelate". It also says he was deported to Goa, keep in mind that Goa was notorious for the Catholic Inqusitions. Most probably he was burned alive in one of the inquisition chambers along with other "heretics"(read hindus, muslims and st. thomas christians). This is what almost every non-catholic history book in kerala says regarding this. I can give an inexhaustible list of book sources and references for the same in our local languages, books written as early as 19th century(of which catholics like cuchullian are contemptous of). This romanisation attempt against eastern churches, to erase their culture and history is nothing new, now wikipedia is also being a playground for fanatics who want to erase us entirely from history. |
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[[User:Mathenkozhencherry|Mathenkozhencherry]] ([[User talk:Mathenkozhencherry|talk]]) 12:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:50, 24 June 2010
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Recent removal
Recently, Keralaxx tried to remove some material from this article. The material is cited to Stephen Neill's very well regarded A History of Christianity in India, published by Cambridge. Both this and the other source cited, Eric Frykenberg's Christianity in India, are reliable sources, written by noted scholars and published by highly regarded university presses. We can discuss article improvements, but cited material should not be removed because someone doesn't like it.--Cúchullain t/c 12:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Almost all blunders quoted here are from one particular source. I can bring a third class book and dump everything in wikipedia. Agree Frykenberg is authentic, what about Neill, all blunders are from Niel Keralaxx (talk) 13:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The material is cited to Stephen Neill's very well regarded A History of Christianity in India, published by Cambridge.". havent heard anyone talking on earth about stephen niel, and almost all crap in his book is not in any other book. People generations before him have written books about Kerala Christian History, none of them have talked anything of such crap.. the whole content of the book is very imaginative. No valid reference is also provided for any blunders mentioned in the book. Purely someones imagination. Is wikipedia an encyclopedia, or cut copy paste from yellow papers? !!!! Keralaxx (talk) 13:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Havent heard any church of kerala mentioning about any forged document and even a document. Marthoma was made Bishop, by the public and not thru any document passed by ahathulla. Is that anywhere in history?Keralaxx (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Stephen Neill is certainly a reliable source. He spent many years as an Anglican churchman in India, then returned to Britain where he served as a scholar and lecturer at Cambridge. His book A History of Christianity in India is very well regarded. If you have access to JSTOR, here is a very positive review of it, by Fryckenberg no less, from the Journal of Asiatic Studies.[1]. Here's another review from the Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.[2]. Both the author and the work are reliable sources; it goes without saying that the publisher (Cambridge) is as well.--Cúchullain t/c 13:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- By the way Neill's book also includes footnotes for all the sources he cites.--Cúchullain t/c 13:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Stephen Neill is certainly a reliable source. He spent many years as an Anglican churchman in India, then returned to Britain where he served as a scholar and lecturer at Cambridge. His book A History of Christianity in India is very well regarded. If you have access to JSTOR, here is a very positive review of it, by Fryckenberg no less, from the Journal of Asiatic Studies.[1]. Here's another review from the Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.[2]. Both the author and the work are reliable sources; it goes without saying that the publisher (Cambridge) is as well.--Cúchullain t/c 13:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
No source is cited, where he has mentioned about forgery? Keralaxx (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
And I am talking about Neill, his book is more of imagination and no credibility. Akbar and Jesuits??? huh??? Where did Akbar operate and where did jesuits???? Keralaxx (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
The books seems to be written by someone so frustrated, who is nothing but bashing the Catholics and other christians apart from protestants Keralaxx (talk) 13:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- That the letters were forgeries is Neill's own conclusion based on the evidence. We are allowed to cite the conclusions of reliable experts. I've revised the wording to indicate specifically that this is Neill's finding. I think you are wrong in your opinion of the book; I think it's extremely even-handed and even handed, and I sincerely doubt the author had any ill will towards other Christians. But if you still doubt that Neill's book is a reliable source, you can ask for additional input at the reliable sources noticeboard.--Cúchullain t/c 13:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- The reason why, I have mentioed that all is fiction, is because, non of the kerala christians know anything about Arch deacon thomas, all books quote that he was the first bishop. Nothing much about a popular figure is known,aprt from his place of birth, death and family, however stephen Neill goes on claiming that ittithomen was very well versed in syriac.Huh ???. People of kerala, know the name Ittithomen, thats it. And remember the east syriac and west syriac.. ahathulla was probably an west syriac... and how will ittithommen know west syriac, when all the syrian christians in kerala belonged to east syrian church? I found many exaggerations here. What many authors have never mentioned are found in THIS ONE boook alone. Am sure, I can find a whole lot of crap here.By the letter, they could have identified, whether ahatulla was east or west. If he is a west syrian, will all the kerela christians jump into a fray. Since the church has relation witH East and not west. What I have read is, 2 pilgrims from kerala saw ahatualla in mylapore near Madras, and informed the kerala christains. Thats it and no talk about any letter anywhere.Keralaxx (talk) 14:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, Neill spent many years of his life compiling sources in several languages, visiting archives, and drawing measured conclusions based on it to produce this book. Again, if you want to get some additional input, please go ahead and post at the reliable sources noticeboard, but please understand that if your major complaint is that you haven't heard of it, or just don't like it, it is unlikely to get you very far. I've shown that Neill is a reliable expert in the field, that the book is highly regarded by other scholars, and that the publisher is about as prestigious as it gets.--Cúchullain t/c 14:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Entire article is STUPID
All of it cut copy pasted from one stupid source. Never did see, these stories in any other book.Did the author write a Novel or a history book? Teutonick (talk) 03:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- First off, the material here is NOT "copy pasted" from anywhere, it is adapted and paraphrased from two very reputable and reliable books, and cited properly. "Copy pasting" implies plagiarism, a very serious charge. Second, as I showed above, the source you are presumably complaining about, Stephen Neill's A History of Christianity in India, is the definition of a reliable source. It is written by a noted scholar in the field and published by Cambridge, a "highly regarded university press" by any standard. You not having heard of something, or just not liking it, is not a reason to remove it.--Cúchullain t/c 12:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- I've added another source which says much the same as Neill. Both sources cite further sources on several of their points.--Cúchullain t/c 14:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yuck, this article is more biased than the catholic encyclopaedia. Seems like somebody is obsessed with romanising the history of eastern churches in wikipedia. The stories of Ahatallah's origin tied to Roman Church can all but be good imagination by Stephen Neill.
- This book clearly mentions that Ahatallah was Syriac Orthodox- http://books.google.co.in/books?id=sOrglHSX6rsC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=ahatallah&source=bl&ots=fBRdnjF-mq&sig=4R-jBtqCujLnqlathPp9aJTILeo&hl=en&ei=EE8jTMH8CcawrAfEibX2Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ahatallah&f=false Ahatallah's claims if any of being from the "Pope" should be taken with reference to the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch who was known as the Pope in eastern christendom.
Mathenkozhencherry (talk) 12:34, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- Cuchullian has copy pasted the some pages of two books into wikipedia. I found the exact same material being plagiarised into more than two other low quality websites. The entire article needs to be re-written, and not just be exact copy pastes of materials from one book.
Mathenkozhencherry (talk) 12:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- From Catholic Encylopaeda: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14678a.htm#XVI
- After the schism had broken out the intruder Ahatalla, a Mesopotamian prelate, was deported by the Portuguese, who took him by ship off Cochin and there lay at anchor. The Christians, coming to know of the fact, threatened to storm the fort, which the governor had to man with his soldiers, while the ship sailed away to Goa during the night.
- Catholic Encylopaedia fails to mention Ahatallah as one of his bishops, but simply calls him a "mesopotamian prelate". It also says he was deported to Goa, keep in mind that Goa was notorious for the Catholic Inqusitions. Most probably he was burned alive in one of the inquisition chambers along with other "heretics"(read hindus, muslims and st. thomas christians). This is what almost every non-catholic history book in kerala says regarding this. I can give an inexhaustible list of book sources and references for the same in our local languages, books written as early as 19th century(of which catholics like cuchullian are contemptous of). This romanisation attempt against eastern churches, to erase their culture and history is nothing new, now wikipedia is also being a playground for fanatics who want to erase us entirely from history.
Mathenkozhencherry (talk) 12:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)