MiszaBot II (talk | contribs) m Archiving 3 thread(s) (older than 14d) to Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive 10. |
|||
Line 178: | Line 178: | ||
:: I am not aware of any postwar "ethnic cleansing" concerning Czech nation. This part of aforementioned statement seems very controversial. - [[User:Darwinek|Darwinek]] ([[User talk:Darwinek|talk]]) 19:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC) |
:: I am not aware of any postwar "ethnic cleansing" concerning Czech nation. This part of aforementioned statement seems very controversial. - [[User:Darwinek|Darwinek]] ([[User talk:Darwinek|talk]]) 19:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC) |
||
:::WOW! I've been doing some WikiHomework, and Space Cadet, Ostap, Tymek, and Molobo are quite the tag team when it comes to trying to pushing a twisted, chauvinistic nationalism into Wikipedia articles. When anyone calls them on it, they all scream bloody murder, claim to be completely unbiased, revert every edit that takes out their blatant POV, and then give each other medals of merit for work on articles relating to their "beloved" country. I'd say ignore them as the trolls they are, but they make everyone waste time trying to keep Wikipedia even remotely credible. [[User:Ubudoda|Ubudoda]] ([[User talk:Ubudoda|talk]]) 03:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
|||
== [[Armia Krajowa]] on GA review == |
== [[Armia Krajowa]] on GA review == |
Revision as of 03:40, 1 March 2008
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Useful templates
Please note we have two functioning userboxes:
This user is a participant in WikiProject Poland. |
This user is a member of the Polish military history task force of WikiProject Military history. |
{{User WPMILHIST Polish military history task force}}
There is also a Portal:Poland/Welcome message that can be used to notify users about this noticeboard and our related projects. Just slap {{subst:Portal:Poland/Welcome}}--~~~~ on their usertalkpage - it has its own heading.
"Polish-French" Chopin
In case anyone has pertinent information to introduce on the subject, at "Frédéric Chopin" User:Mrglass123 has changed the composer from "Polish" to "Polish-French," citing Encyclopaedia Britannica and an alleged French passport. (This is very much at variance with the view of the Polish Wikipedia.) Nihil novi (talk) 12:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- It is also at odds with fr wiki. For some reason I recall debates over Piłsudski nationality, which interestingly never touched Lithuanian Wikipedia, neither. How did this saying go about 'being more holy than a Pope'? :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Excellent points. Thanks for looking into the matter.
- By the way, the poor-quality photo of the supposed "French passport," at some website, bears an imprint, something like "Passeport à Etrangère," "valid for one year," which sounds less like a French passport than some kind of residence permit for a "foreigner," valid for a year. Nihil novi (talk) 03:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The party has now moved (for now) from Marshal Piłsudski's to Fryderyk's, with (who else?) our friend Daniel in attendance! Much fun to be had! All are invited. Nihil novi (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- As this board is still on my watchlist, I feel invited. Who will play the piano? -- Matthead Discuß 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I am just wondering where the party people will move now. Any bets, guys? I would say, that after Pilsudski, Szopen and Sklodowska the time has come for Adam Mickiewicz. Tymek (talk) 01:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Can't you imagine what the good old "traveling circus" could make of that "Belarusian poet who wrote in Polish about Lithuania"? Nihil novi (talk) 04:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- You never know, but perhaps someone might check Czeslaw Milosz now and then. Tymek (talk) 04:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I am just wondering where the party people will move now. Any bets, guys? I would say, that after Pilsudski, Szopen and Sklodowska the time has come for Adam Mickiewicz. Tymek (talk) 01:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
IPA for Polish names
I'm writing a program which automatially generates IPA phonetic representation for Polish words, for use in articles on towns, people etc. If anyone considers themselves knowledgeable on this matter, I'd be grateful if you could have a look at the examples at this user page and let me know if you think there are any errors creeping in. Thanks, --Kotniski (talk) 13:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Further to this, I'm also building a couple of templates which may prove useful ({{IPA-pl}} and {{Audio-IPA-pl}}). I left a note about them at Template talk:IPA.--Kotniski (talk) 15:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Constitution of Belarus and Polish minority rights
The government of Belarus doesn't respect the constitution. AN article about the constitution should inform about it. The same all Soviet/Communist constitutions. A constitution isn't a fiction book to be described because of the quality of the text.Xx236 (talk) 14:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you are able to expand the article with text on violations, it will be welcomed. Mind citing sources. - Darwinek (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Xx, why don't take your complaints to article talk pages instead of trying to "mobilize" users? Or best yet, improve articles yourself with the properly sourced and neutrally phrased info. --Irpen 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
My I ask you not adress me here? I don't like you. Xx236 (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
1936 Soviet Constitution was one of the most liberal in the world. That doesn't mean Soviet Union was. Nonetheless remember that article's have their scops and government's violations should not be discussed extensively in articles about their constitutions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
As I studied Law I can say saomething about constitiutions in general: Constitiutions of non-democratic countries at first glance may seem as liberal as the constitiutions of democratic countries. They differ in two major points:
- The constitiution of non-democratic countries emphesise the obligations of it's citizens when the constitiutions of democratic countries puts the rights of their citizens first.
- The constitiution of non-democratic countries usually has little or no independent institiutions with real power (like Trybunał Konstytucyjny in Poland) which can force policymakers to respect the constitiution. Mieciu K (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irpen, the idea of creating such portals is to exchange ideas, remarks as well as complaints. Therefore, your inflammatory comment was not necessary. Tymek (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek, I agree that the exchange of ideas is good. However, what is indeed inflammatory, is to use this board to try mobilize users. This board used to even have a special nice frame on top courteously entitled "Articles in need of attention" or something like that. If I remember correctly, the last straw that broke the camel's back and lead to its removal was when one experienced editor filled this box with "Article 1, Article 2 as well as any article edited by Ghirla". That was blunt enough to perplex one of the board's members who removed the box, hopefully for good. By asking to cut down on "mobilizations" I am trying to achieve calm rather than inflame matters. Inflaming of national announcement boards was tried elsewhere and not by me. If you want details, we can discuss it elsewhere. --Irpen 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I spoke to the original poster about this issue on the talk page of the article. As the main writer of it, I just wanted to focus on the document itself and the changes done to it. There are violations of all Constitutions, so I do not see why Belarus has to be that special case. My personal opinion is that any violations against the Polish minority in Belarus (which I know exists, I do not dispute that) should be at another article. I believe there is an article about the Polish minority in Belarus on here. Any thoughts are welcome here or at my talk page. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek, I agree that the exchange of ideas is good. However, what is indeed inflammatory, is to use this board to try mobilize users. This board used to even have a special nice frame on top courteously entitled "Articles in need of attention" or something like that. If I remember correctly, the last straw that broke the camel's back and lead to its removal was when one experienced editor filled this box with "Article 1, Article 2 as well as any article edited by Ghirla". That was blunt enough to perplex one of the board's members who removed the box, hopefully for good. By asking to cut down on "mobilizations" I am trying to achieve calm rather than inflame matters. Inflaming of national announcement boards was tried elsewhere and not by me. If you want details, we can discuss it elsewhere. --Irpen 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irpen, the idea of creating such portals is to exchange ideas, remarks as well as complaints. Therefore, your inflammatory comment was not necessary. Tymek (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian chauvinists are at it again, turning Polish mathematician Stefan Banach into a Ukrainian. Nihil novi (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Deja vu, an anon again. And again he is calling us chauvinists and nationalists. Obviously, any nationality would be proud to have Banach as their own, but this is ridiculous. Tymek (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian chauvinists? Lets see, you have a single anonymous IP address from the US and you are now talking about Ukrainian chauvinists? Of course Banach is Polish. Please lose the anti-Ukrainian sentiment, or at least learn to conceal it better. Ostap 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly. A not very active anon fanatic who may or may be a (singular) Ukrainian chauvinist is no need to create such an alarming threat here. Peace, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- But he is definitely Polish. Ukrainian wikipedia also lists him as only a Polish mathematician. Given the old comments on the talk page (if its the same editor), he looks more like a Polonophobe than a Ukrainian chauvinist. Ostap 01:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh come on Ostap. Nihil Novi was visibly upset, I am sure this is not about anti-Ukrainian sentiment. It just makes you angry when you see something like this. Tymek (talk) 03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- It also makes me angry. Vandal anon's are a plague, but what can we do? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh come on Ostap. Nihil Novi was visibly upset, I am sure this is not about anti-Ukrainian sentiment. It just makes you angry when you see something like this. Tymek (talk) 03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- But he is definitely Polish. Ukrainian wikipedia also lists him as only a Polish mathematician. Given the old comments on the talk page (if its the same editor), he looks more like a Polonophobe than a Ukrainian chauvinist. Ostap 01:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Poland-artist-stub
New stub has been created: {{Poland-artist-stub}}.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Gwiazda Polski
Yet another fascinating subject from interbellum Poland. As I am not an expert in this field, help is appreciated, look at Gwiazda Polski. Tymek (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
You may be interested in leaving your thoughts on the notability of this Poland-related article at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marika Michalowska. Thank you.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- In particular, if anyone could comment on whether or not Laif Magazine is a major music publication in Poland which might be considered a reliable source, that would be quite helpful. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Czeslaw Milosz-Jozef Pilsudski
The traveling circus has now chosen Czeslaw Milosz, who according to one gentleman, was a Lithuanian poet of Polish culture (what a nonsense, never heard of such a phrase). Tymek (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- And Jozef Pilsudski (see Talk). Dr. Dan (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia Britannica identifies him as a "Polish-American" author, not Lithuanian. Ostap 20:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have no interest in this topic Tymek, but please do not use this noticeboard in this way; doing this has in the past brought a lot of suspicion and ill-will into the community project. In addition to this, please remember WP:CANVASS and WP:MULTI. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- WP:CANVASSUnder certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions. Now we have editors who are changing the Czeslaw Milosz article in a way that does not improve the contents and furthermore, these changes are inflammatory. Therefore, I do not see anything wrong about the topic I started. Tymek (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are addressing this noticeboard in the spirit of partisanship, and referring to other people as "the traveling circus". Using this noticeboard as a rallying point for content-disputes has in the past brought a bad reputation, and creates nationality-based bad feeling on wikipedia. Remember wikipedia relies on a spirit of good-will and co-operation, and comments such as this and this do not help. I hope more experienced users on this noticeboard will back me up here! Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- WP:CANVASSUnder certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions. Now we have editors who are changing the Czeslaw Milosz article in a way that does not improve the contents and furthermore, these changes are inflammatory. Therefore, I do not see anything wrong about the topic I started. Tymek (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek's tone might and should have been better. But the topic is relevant. Unless anybody believes this noticeboard is a nationalist canvassing ground, it stands to reason that any discussion advertised here will be brought to the attention of mostly neutral and reasonable editors, whose influence on it will be positive and moderating. Let's assume good faith and be nice to each other, shall we? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm all for that Piotrus. There's probably no way to stop nationality based content-disputes involving a Polish topic being brought here, but in those circumstances we can secure the maximum of good faith by avoiding terms like traveling circus and Ukrainian chauvinists being used when users do bring them here. You, Piotrus, know more than anyone how much harm this can do (and for what good?), so I hope that you will give less experienced users such as Tymek and Nihil Novi guidance on the matter. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Everybody loves a good traveling circus. They are usually quite entertaining. Ostap 00:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I have had my lesson. Next time, when I see somebody making inflammatory, baseless edits to such articles as Czeslaw Milosz, I will just follow the advice given here and I will stay as far from these edits as possible. I will not inform anybody about it, and thousands of possible readers will get the wrong info. What you see is what you get. And those who make such edits will obviously be praised for their efforts. Therefore, let us make Czeslaw Milosz a Lithuanian poet of Polish culture, and let us make Wikipedia the only source of such information in this beautiful world. Why not? Regards. Tymek (talk) 01:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek, regarding...what a nonsense (sic), have never heard of such a phrase... Let me assure you that the longer you live, the more you will both hear and learn many other things that you are not aware of. You must have missed Norman Davies', "Pilsudski considered himself a Lithuanian of Polish culture"...Dr. Dan (talk) 20:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I have had my lesson. Next time, when I see somebody making inflammatory, baseless edits to such articles as Czeslaw Milosz, I will just follow the advice given here and I will stay as far from these edits as possible. I will not inform anybody about it, and thousands of possible readers will get the wrong info. What you see is what you get. And those who make such edits will obviously be praised for their efforts. Therefore, let us make Czeslaw Milosz a Lithuanian poet of Polish culture, and let us make Wikipedia the only source of such information in this beautiful world. Why not? Regards. Tymek (talk) 01:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- May I enlighten you this time. The topic is Czeslaw Milosz, in case you missed it. Anyway, I always thought that Wikipedia is all about reliable knowledge, not about POVish, pseudorevolutionary ideas of some users. Tymek (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well let's make it even more clearer then and focus like a laser. Is it about Milosz, Polish-Lithuanian, or Polish culture that you have a problem with? The phrase that Milosz or Pilsudski were Lithuanians of Polish culture, may not be to your liking, and whether or not you have knowledge of such a concept, is neither here nor there. Their statements regarding their heritage are as relevant as Jan Dzierzon's are about his. Or does that only apply in Dzierzon's case? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry to interupt, but do you have any other sources that say he was a Lithuanian of Polish culture? Ostap 00:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I recall, Miłosz very often described his hometown and the regions currently being located on the territory of Lithuania. I do not, however, remember him saying that he was Lithuanian, although he had good Lithuanian friends and maintained the links with the country. He also was writing exclusively in Polish and English, afaik. But Dr. Dan, you are more than welcome to bring the reliable resources and I'm sure they'll be appreciated, as they will widen our knowledge of this great poet, whose Lithuanian origins are commonly known. Pundit|utter 01:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry to interupt, but do you have any other sources that say he was a Lithuanian of Polish culture? Ostap 00:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neither of you gentlemen are interrupting as I am not sure if Tymek is ready at the moment to deal with the issue by himself. While I'm preparing some info for you, do you also care to get some additional info regarding Pilsudski's heritage too? If as I contend, both men, JS and CM, stated as much regarding their Lithuanian heritage, would that be a different argument than the Dzierzon case? Dr. Dan (talk) 01:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well let's make it even more clearer then and focus like a laser. Is it about Milosz, Polish-Lithuanian, or Polish culture that you have a problem with? The phrase that Milosz or Pilsudski were Lithuanians of Polish culture, may not be to your liking, and whether or not you have knowledge of such a concept, is neither here nor there. Their statements regarding their heritage are as relevant as Jan Dzierzon's are about his. Or does that only apply in Dzierzon's case? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Dr Dan, I lost you here. Why should I deal with this issue? In what way? He was Polish, I do not have to prove anything, just bother yourself to open any encyclopedia. Tymek (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek, earlier I offered to discuss this with you at your own talk page. You declined to do so. Now we are at a portal that has a much wider audience. Although I am not offended by your "travelling circus" remark, your input here is compromised. Besides the issues are not directed for you to determine alone, in any case. No one wants you to prove anything. You are not required to "deal with this issue". In what way? In no way. Right now I'm "bothering" with the article on this encyclopedia. I hope this has become clearer to you now and you are no longer "lost". Dr. Dan (talk) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I fail to see in what way does the letter by Kazimierz Tarnowski have anything to do with Czeslaw Milosz's self perception or identity. He was a Polish citizen, a Polish author, and was raised in a Polish community living in the then Polish territory. His great sentiment and appreciation for the region, expressed e.g. in "Dolina Issy" does not have much to do with being Lithuanian. Similarly, in spite of the many sentiments and nostalgia that Günter Grass expresses towards Danzig, it is rather unusual to call him Polish (and same it goes e.g. with Max Born and many other notable people. I am far from going national about Miłosz, but common reason would call for bringing some solid sources (preferably statements by him) for this unusual claim (considering his citizenship, language and often expressed Polish nationality). Pundit|utter 03:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was something to read "temporarily" while I'm putting some other things together. And you can also scroll the link forwards and back to other interesting information. As for (Milosz)...he was a Polish citizen, etc., I think he later became a U.S. citizen, and spent most of his adult life in the United States. Anyway I hope Tymek enjoyed Pilsudski's remark at the Rudziński's home that was included in the link, ..."I, Sir, am not a Pole, because I am a Lithuanian!"...February, 1915. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Pilsudski's other purported quote was actually somewhat dismaying, ..."(Poland) is the "hariba" of Europe." Perhaps he never spoke these words. In any case, Hiraba: Arabic for "waging war against society." Assassins. Fire setters. Well poisoners. Assassins, who kill not for military but political purposes... Hariba was once, in Islam, counted as among the gravest possible sins -- a war against God. It includes the killing of the resident and the wayfarer -- noncombatants, that is.Dr. Dan (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh please, perhaps he meant that Poland is Haribo of Europe, after all everybody enjoys some sweet jelly bear now and then. Or perhaps he never said Haribo. Anyway, this discussion is getting ridiculous. From Milosz to Pilsudski to Dzierzon and finally to Arab assassins. What else do you have in stock to convince us that Milosz was not Polish? Tymek (talk) 16:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- The quote is from 1915, Tymek, the candy company was founded in 1920. Then again it has been argued by some that JP had a unique Nostradamistic ability to foresee the future. As for connecting the dots between Milosz, Pilsudski, Dzierzon and their origins to this discussion, just read the articles and their talk pages. Take your time. Dr. Dan (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Pilsudski's other purported quote was actually somewhat dismaying, ..."(Poland) is the "hariba" of Europe." Perhaps he never spoke these words. In any case, Hiraba: Arabic for "waging war against society." Assassins. Fire setters. Well poisoners. Assassins, who kill not for military but political purposes... Hariba was once, in Islam, counted as among the gravest possible sins -- a war against God. It includes the killing of the resident and the wayfarer -- noncombatants, that is.Dr. Dan (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Tymek, earlier I offered to discuss this with you at your own talk page. You declined to do so. Now we are at a portal that has a much wider audience. Although I am not offended by your "travelling circus" remark, your input here is compromised. Besides the issues are not directed for you to determine alone, in any case. No one wants you to prove anything. You are not required to "deal with this issue". In what way? In no way. Right now I'm "bothering" with the article on this encyclopedia. I hope this has become clearer to you now and you are no longer "lost". Dr. Dan (talk) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Britannica, which I think is sort of an authority, calls him (Milosz) a Polish-American. Ostap 03:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Since this discussion is now including Pilsudski, can I remind you that when Britannica called Pilsudski a Polish-Lithuanian, it didn't have much "authority" in that case. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's because cherrypicking is not our policy. If 9 times out of 10 Britannica calls him Polish, and once, Polish-Lithuanian, claiming that "Britannica calls him Polish-Lithuanian" is not very honest, now, is it? The same thing applies to Miłosz. End of story.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, I don't think anybody objects to mentioning Miłosz's American passport, right? Pundit|utter 05:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I wish that indeed there was less cherry picking going on, or that we could at least get some Kirschwasser out of it, while it's going on. Anyway, now that I've got your attention let's not have a rush to judgement and give this a little time to develop. No, not end of story. Honestly, honest? I can go to bed with a smile, or even a little laugh. Dr. Dan (talk) 05:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC) p.s. It seems only French passports are suspect around here see Chopin (talk).
- Also, I don't think anybody objects to mentioning Miłosz's American passport, right? Pundit|utter 05:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's because cherrypicking is not our policy. If 9 times out of 10 Britannica calls him Polish, and once, Polish-Lithuanian, claiming that "Britannica calls him Polish-Lithuanian" is not very honest, now, is it? The same thing applies to Miłosz. End of story.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Has anyone factored into the question of Józef Piłsudski's and Czesław Miłosz's "Lithuaniannness," sheer human perversity? When an individual wishes for some reason to set himself apart from his fellows—particularly if he is upset with them—he will sometimes advert to his (at times, merely supposed) foreign background. Among Germans, Friedrich Nietzsche famously did this, in claiming Polish origin: see "Friedrich Nietzsche" and "Radwan coat of arms." In Miłosz's case, the claim of Lithuanianness partly also involved a desire to emulate his compatriot and fellow-poet Adam Mickiewicz (to whom Miłosz devoted a course at Berkeley). Nihil novi (talk) 07:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- All things considered, it would be less difficult for Milosz to emulate Mickiewicz, than say Julian Tuwim. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
POV pushing
Hi.
There appear to be several users with an anti-German slant who are trying to tint a large number of articles in this way. See for example the edit histories of Former eastern territories of Germany and Expulsion of Germans after World War II, especially user Molobo's edits. Most of his changes introduce vocabulary with an anti-German bias and an unbalanced presentation that paints German actions intentionally "evil". (You will also notice my own edits where I try to undo some of that, without much success as Molobo undoes my undos). I don't want to start an edit war with this person, but rather hope that a majority of users will help watch him so that he doesn't have a chance of spreading his POV. I've also notified the German users notice board here where there was a discussion about this problem earlier. Everyone is invited to continue the discussion there.
Note that I'm not trying to push an anti-Polish POV in return. If someone wanted to introduce one, I'd try to stop that too. I believe wikipedia should not judge historical conflicts at all, neither expressively nor subtly. I hope wikipedia authors can achieve this by working together across nations. The German-Polish conficts are in the past and we don't need to fight them here once again. Anorak2 (talk) 08:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Have you tried discussing it with user Molobo directly? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are absolutely right, I'm also quite sure that a little direct discussion with Molobo will help, I can back you up if nessesary.--Jacurek (talk) 16:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Anorak, could you specify Molobo's edits you dislike? I do not see anything nationalistic in them. Conflicts are hopefully in the past, but this does not mean that we have to forget about what happened. Tymek (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193119673&oldid=193001787 (a block of several edits, all by Molobo). I draw your attention to
- the change of forced migration into migration
- the comparison to movements of Czechs, Hungarians etc.
- the wording German aggression
- all of which appear to justify the expulsions by either belittling the events or blaming Germans as a nation, thus POV.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193119673&oldid=193001787 (a block of several edits, all by Molobo). I draw your attention to
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193115326&oldid=19311459 I draw your attention to the wording especially as most of those areas were part of Poland before being Germanised. This phrase appears to justify the ceding of territory, i.e. it takes sides. Also, while it's undisputably true that the territories were Polish or Slavonic at several points in time, it's likewhise true that they were also Germanic or German at several points in time. It's impossible to determine "who was first". Cherrypicking one of those many points in time to "justify" territorial claims (of whichever side) is, well, heavy POV.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=193119300&oldid=193115326 I draw your attention to the wording just like other private property regardless of ethnic background. Once again this phrase appears to justify the expropriation of the expellees' property, thus is takes sides. Also the claim that there was no difference between epropriation of German expellees' real estate and "regular" communist nationalisations is unsourced (and actually untrue AFAIK). The unsourced claim was apparently inserted for the sole purpose of justifying the expropriation, thus is once again heavy POV. Anorak2 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- As long as we remember the past in an NPOV way like Molobo does, we will be OK. Space Cadet (talk) 18:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I guess reality just seems to have a pro-Polish bias. That's really too bad. Ostap 19:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Comments like this are unhelpful, if I may say so. If a subject is controversial, then it's wikipedia's job to present it as controversial and describe the viewpoint of all parties involved without judging which one is "more right". Anorak2 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, this is the first problematic Molobo's edit, presented by Anorak: as part of a postwar ethnic cleansing process also involving Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, and Russians. The policy had been agreed to by the Allies during the war as a way to stop further German agression.. Anorak, we are not creating Wikipedia for ourselves, we are doing this for English speakers from all over the world. Without this phrase: also involving Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, and Russians a reader, say in Indonesia, may come to the conclusion that Germans were the only nationality, which suffered from expulsions after WW2. It gives a broader perspective, it is helpful and honestly, I do not see any pro-Polish POV there. As for: the policy had been agreed to by the Allies during the war as a way to stop further German agression - wasn't this the purpose of expulsions? If I am wrong, correct me. More to come, if you wish Tymek (talk) 19:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- WOW! I've been doing some WikiHomework, and Space Cadet, Ostap, Tymek, and Molobo are quite the tag team when it comes to trying to pushing a twisted, chauvinistic nationalism into Wikipedia articles. When anyone calls them on it, they all scream bloody murder, claim to be completely unbiased, revert every edit that takes out their blatant POV, and then give each other medals of merit for work on articles relating to their "beloved" country. I'd say ignore them as the trolls they are, but they make everyone waste time trying to keep Wikipedia even remotely credible. Ubudoda (talk) 03:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Armia Krajowa on GA review
AK is on GA review. Changes have been requested here. Please help improve the article; if there are no editors willing to invest their time, this important article will lose its GA status.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)