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:I believe we should examine the edits to ensure that positive changes are retained. As user Walter Gorlitz commented on my edit, the changes "are clear, correct and clearly an improvement." --[[User:Xenos_io26|Xenos_io26]] ([[User talk:Xenos_io26|talk]]) 03:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
:I believe we should examine the edits to ensure that positive changes are retained. As user Walter Gorlitz commented on my edit, the changes "are clear, correct and clearly an improvement." --[[User:Xenos_io26|Xenos_io26]] ([[User talk:Xenos_io26|talk]]) 03:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::We need sources were the info appears....we dont make our readers search for sources on other pages. As for expansion....much of what was added is already covered in the history section. --[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 11:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
::We need sources were the info appears....we dont make our readers search for sources on other pages. As for expansion....much of what was added is already covered in the history section. --[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 11:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::: Agreed. Also, Canada is not a particularly militaristic nation and so expanding this section in a general article on the subject is likely adding [[:WP:UNDUE]] weight to the topic. [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 17:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
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Discussion of Canada's official name Future TFA paragraph |
Canadian Coat of Arms
Like the Australian and New Zealand articles, can we add the Canadian coat of arms next to the Canadian flag in the beginning of the article?
- The arms contains material which are subject to trademark laws in one or more jurisdictions. Pls see File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg--Moxy (talk) 21:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- And are subject to Crown Copyright as well. The 1957 version, which is still in current official use as well, is a more suitable replacement in other articles as an official state logo of Canada. However, it was decided on multiple occasions that the Canadian Flag is the most appropriate symbol here, and the Arms are not critical to illustrating this article's topic. Of course the Arms are available for anyone who is interested to see via blue links within this article. trackratte (talk) 00:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- I do believe this article is the only on Wikipedia for a nation state that doesn't display that country's coat of arms/seal/emblem/equivalent in the infobox. That's a significant inconsistency however. --RaviC (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- How so? It's not material to the nation itself. It may be an issue for those who are interested in heraldry or similar, but for the average reader, it's not a loss. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html doesn't list either and it's fairly useful. Why is it needed as opposed to just nice to have? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Whether or not that's so, current consensus for the use of non-free content does not permit using the coat of arms in this article. isaacl (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- I do believe this article is the only on Wikipedia for a nation state that doesn't display that country's coat of arms/seal/emblem/equivalent in the infobox. That's a significant inconsistency however. --RaviC (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Just one last question then, in the link provided: File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg, it is indicated that the coat of arms can be used as long as it appears "unaltered, in a non-commercial, educational context is specifically allowed by the Canadian government." Considering that we have a Wikipedia article: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_of_Canada) where the coat of arms is displayed, could it not be displayed on the beginning page of the Canada article?
- Because it's copyrighted, it must have a fair use rationale. You'll see one for Arms of Canada and Monarchy of Canada. There is none for this article and because we don't discuss it in the article, and it doesn't make sense to discuss it in an encyclopedic way, none can be provided. So we can't use it even though the government of Canada allows for its use, "unaltered, in a non-commercial, educational context". Its use here is not educational but informational at best and more like decorative. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia licenses its content for others to use, even for commercial uses. Thus, in general, content incorporated in Wikipedia must be freely reusable. There is a list of specific criteria that, if met, can be used to justify using non-free content. See Wikipedia:Non-free content for more details. Criterion 8 requires that the non-free content is essential for a significant increase in understanding for the topic in question. While this is true for the Arms of Canada article, it does not hold for this article. isaacl (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
In traditional European heraldry, the definitive reference is the textual blazon, there can be multiple equivalent artistic renderings of a coat of arms, and anyone who makes a new artistic rendering based on the blazon owns the copyright to that particular artistic rendering. AnonMoos (talk) 09:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- However, when a coat of arms is also a state logo, only the official depiction is appropriate. trackratte (talk) 13:47, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Exactly this. So a different rendering – for example, this one – could, and should, be used instead. — Jon C.ॐ 14:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, that rendering is not the state logo for Canada, and as such is inappropriate in the same way as using this rendition of the Canadian Flag would be inappropriate, even though it is 100% inline with the blazon. There is a difference between what is acceptable in heraldry, and what is acceptable as an official logo to represent a state or nation within an Encyclopedia.
- As a result, when we are talking about state logos, like a flag or other symbol, any discussion about what is "heraldically correct" is completely irrelevant. As another example, as we can see here there are numerous different way to render the American Flag, all of which are heraldically correct, however there is only one rendering of the American Flag that is acceptable to use to represent the USA on Wikipedia, and the exact same thing applies to the Canadian Flag and to the Arms of Canada.
- Besides, both the 1994 and 1957 renderings are in current use within Canada, so we already have an official version of the coat of arms for use as a state logo within Wikipedia which Commons considers as "free use", and is therefore available for unlimited usage within En Wiki. trackratte (talk) 14:38, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- What is a state logo? We're talking about a coat of arms here, which do vary depending on who they've been rendered by. Most other CoAs on Wikipedia aren't taken directly from a government webpage or similar, but are created by WP editors. I don't see why Canada is the exception. — Jon C.ॐ 14:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- A state logo is a specific and often legally designated symbol used to officially represent a country, state, or nation. As such, one cannot simply change them and use them in the same way as this is likely to cause offence, such as changing the Canadian flag to the image found in the table in right hand column and using it in the "Canada" page infobox, it would be offensive and inappropriate.
- To use a different analogy, there is no "right" way to spell a name (for example Isabelle, Isabel, Isebell, etc) in the same way as there is no "right" way to render a blazon in heraldry. However, when it comes to representing a specific person there is only one way to spell their name (if someone's name is Jordynn for example, purposefully spelling it as Jordan is both wrong and insulting), this in the same way as using a random rendering of a country's flag or arms to represent that country is equally wrong and insulting.
- This is what I mean when I say that the rules of heraldry are irrelevant when it comes to state logos (official and specifically rendered symbols to represent a state) as state logos and heraldry are really two separate subjects. The fact that a state logo can be a coat of arms serves to blur the distinction and has been a cause for confusion here in the past as the rules of heraldry do not apply to the rules governing state logos.
- If you want to test this concept in practice, replace the Flag of Canada on this page's infobox with this heraldically correct version and see what happens.
- What is a state logo? We're talking about a coat of arms here, which do vary depending on who they've been rendered by. Most other CoAs on Wikipedia aren't taken directly from a government webpage or similar, but are created by WP editors. I don't see why Canada is the exception. — Jon C.ॐ 14:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Arms of Canada, revised in 1957 (current official symbol of Canada) | Not the Arms of Canada (Arms never used nor approved by Canada) |
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this image is free use on Commons | May be heraldically correct, but still not the Arms of Canada. |
Current National Flag of Canada (current official symbol of Canada) | Not the National Flag of Canada (Flag never used nor approved by Canada) |
Is heraldically correct, but is still not the National Flag of Canada. | |
Current Flag of the United States | Not the Flag of the U.S. (Flag never used or approved by the United States) |
May be heraldically correct in that it more closely aligns with the |
trackratte (talk) 15:56, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- OK, but the field in the infobox is for the coat of arms, not the "state logo". The UK doesn't use the same rendering of the coat of arms as we use here – does that mean it's wrong?
- That aside, is the 1957 arms really still used officially in Canada? — Jon C.ॐ 16:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- If a coat of arms is used to represent the state, and has been officially or legally specifically designated to do so, then it is a state logo. Most countries use coats of arms inline with traditional practices, although this is not universal, for example China's use of a "national emblem".
- The 1957 arms are still used officially. See here for the official table of symbols, and you will see both the 1957 and 1994 revisions listed.
- I'm not familiar with every single countries specificities. If the UK is using an exact rendering then it may or may not be a copyright violation. Or maybe the UK does not have a specifically designated rendering and the state uses a variety of different versions, I think it is specific to each country. In Canada's case, there are specifically prescribed logos and a precise version legally adopted for use. As you can see in the link I just gave you, as well as other examples such as this one here for the Canadian Flag. trackratte (talk) 17:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying, but most other countries also have renderings in 'official' use. For example, here is the UK's; compare to the SVG image on royal arms of the United Kingdom. Here's New Zealand, as used by government; compare to coat of arms of New Zealand. Here's the Republic of Ireland's, which is quite different to the one at coat of arms of Ireland.
- In each instance, the blazon is the same but the rendering is different, as with the Canadian one above. What makes Canada unique in this instance? — Jon C.ॐ 09:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
1. This isn't a discussion about hobby heraldry, so once again I see arguments revolving around the finer points of blazonry as entirely irrelevant to the discussion of specific and legally defined symbols used to represent Canada.
2. Similarly, if you wish to discuss the finer points of British or New Zealand state symbols I suggest you bring it up at those talk pages, as this page and discussion pertains to Canada only. If you wish to make a Wikipedia wide standard to not use the actual state symbols but to instead use renderings made by hobby heraldists contributing to Commons, you are of course more than welcome to make such a proposal at the appropriate place.
3. What is clear to me, and I think we can agree, is that an Encyclopedia should endeavour to use the proper symbols when pictographically representing a country. Once again, I think we both agree which rendering of the Canadian Flag should be used here, despite the fact that other renderings are entirely appropriate within the norms of heraldry, and this applies in the exact same way to other symbols such as the coat of arms as well.
4. Finally, a point upon which I think we can similarly both agree is the fact that there is no reason to use incorrect symbols (again, incorrect not in terms of the tenets of heraldry generally, but incorrect in terms of a state's specifically approved image) when we have the appropriate symbols at our disposal, such as the most commonly used 1994 rendition, and the still current 1957 rendering, both of which are representative of Canada, approved and identified as such, and both of which were designed and rendered by professional state heralds for the very purpose of symbolically representing Canada.
The bottom line is I take issue with someone passing off something which is not the Flag of Canada to represent Canada on this wiki regardless if such an image is in line with its blazon, in the same way as the Arms, in the same way as someone purposefully spelling a name wrong. The point being that an Encyclopedia endeavours to portray knowledge and facts, not creative self-made images or caricatures. trackratte (talk) 12:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2017
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Coat_of_arms_of_Canada.svg Drooski1 (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 22:44, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Reversion of edits
My minor edits were obliterated by the following edit: 20:48, 16 July 2017 Moxy (talk | contribs) . . (190,248 bytes) (+22) . . (restore) (undo | thank)
When I started to edit the article I noticed and read the boxes at the top, in particular, "Note: This page has been semi-protected so that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. ..." As near as I can tell I am an "autoconfirmed user" and therefore am allowed to edit the article. My edits consisted of moving some images to improve the layout of the article and one copy edit. E.g. the climate map currently interferes with the gallery of leaders on my monitor.
Is Moxy the "gatekeeper" for this article?User-duck (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Canada is a founding member of the United Nations.User-duck (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Nice to see all the test edits finally worked.....in the future if the 2 of you could preview before saving it would save us from having to fix formating issues. And yes as mentioned in the article Canada was one of the founding member of the UN. --Moxy (talk) 12:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- First point is that Canada still is a member, was is past tense. Past tense would be appropriate if Canada was no longer a member or the United Nations no longer existed.
- I continually preview my edits. Only when I saved the original did something fail and I undid my edit immediately. I then started to redo my edits piece by piece. There were no reasons given for the reversions. remove gallery and restore may be satisfactory summaries. For my personal education what were the "formating issues" with the 20:03, 16 July 2017 version?
Edit request
I would like:
- "Other provinces have no official languages as such, but French is used as a language of instruction, in courts, and for other government services, in addition to English."
changed to:
- "Other provinces have no official languages as such, but French is used, in addition to English, as a language of instruction, in courts, and for other government services."
I believe it is a much better sentence grammatically.User-duck (talk) 06:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I forgot to add that I am not sure that the two sentences are equivalent.User-duck (talk) 19:25, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Edit request: removal of "Benjamin West 005.jpg"
I feel that [[File:Benjamin West 005.jpg|thumb|left|alt=Benjamin West's "The Death of General Wolfe" dying in front of British flag while attended by officers and native allies|[[Benjamin West]]'s ''[[The Death of General Wolfe]]'' (1771) dramatizes [[James Wolfe]]'s death during the [[Battle of the Plains of Abraham]] at [[Quebec City|Quebec]].]]
should be removed. Neither "General Wolfe" nor "Battle of the Plains of Abraham" nor "Benjamin West" are mention in this article. The image is already more appropriately used in other articles.
I know there is an aversion to removing content but, as stated at the beginning of this page, this article is much to big.User-duck (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- During the FA review we decide to put this info in picture format (one of the most famous Canadian images) about the main people of the seven year war here in Canada (that we mention). That said do you have a suggestion for a replacement image that is this famous?--Moxy (talk) 01:13, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was only expressing an idea to improve the article, trying to make it more concise. I had no idea that this painting was related to the Seven Year War. Not being Canadian, I am not familiar with Canadian history. I was seeing the painting over and over in the Canadian articles and thought deleting this one occurrence would not detract from this article. Lack of knowledge helps me to be an objective editor. Without a more direct reference to the body of the article, the painting might be more appropriate in the Arts section. I like the image.User-duck (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
removing (most) uses of px
I would like to replace uses of "###px" with "upright=#.##". As per Wikipedia:Image use policy, Except with very good reason, do not use px (e.g. thumb|300px), which forces a fixed image width. I am willing to do the job, my arithmetic skills are quite good. User-duck (talk) 20:02, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Would be a good idea if the recently add gallery had alll the same size images in it.--Moxy (talk) 01:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- Actually the images were very close to the same size, they had the same height. The wikitable cells were different widths because of the captions. This introduced side margins of different widths. I used the "Multiple image" template and adjusted the total_width until the captions fit. Luckily caption text is smaller than normal text. This would have been much easier if the original images were the same size.
- Moxy, do you have an opinion about changing to "upright"? Unfortunately, the "Multiple image" has no provisions for upright and would continue to use pixels.User-duck (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
New additions
I have reverted the big change in the military section that removed sources and expanded the text with no sources....and regurgitates some information from the History Section. Lets review the additions see what we can use.--Moxy (talk) 03:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- The separation of the foreign affairs and military sections would allow for further elaboration on each. The current composition wherein the text flows back and forth between the (admittedly related) topics can be improved upon. The Wikipedia pages for other countries often separate these sections to great effect. Moreover, the events mentioned are not consistently in chronological order (see the jumps from 2003 invasion of Iraq, to the Suez Crisis of 1956, to the 2001 war in Afghanistan). The allegation that the edits were unsourced is not entirely true, as the content contained a significant number of hyperlinks to existing Wikipedia pages which elaborate further on those events. The facts mentioned are sourced from those Wikipedia articles, and the citations could easily have been transferred to this page had the changes not been reversed so quickly.
- I believe we should examine the edits to ensure that positive changes are retained. As user Walter Gorlitz commented on my edit, the changes "are clear, correct and clearly an improvement." --Xenos_io26 (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- We need sources were the info appears....we dont make our readers search for sources on other pages. As for expansion....much of what was added is already covered in the history section. --Moxy (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed. Also, Canada is not a particularly militaristic nation and so expanding this section in a general article on the subject is likely adding WP:UNDUE weight to the topic. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:17, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- We need sources were the info appears....we dont make our readers search for sources on other pages. As for expansion....much of what was added is already covered in the history section. --Moxy (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)