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:::::I see your point. Maybe the wording could be changed to 'essentially' or some such? I think I'll give it a go and see how it takes with everyone... [[User:Earl of Arundel|Earl of Arundel]] ([[User talk:Earl of Arundel|talk]]) 03:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC) |
:::::I see your point. Maybe the wording could be changed to 'essentially' or some such? I think I'll give it a go and see how it takes with everyone... [[User:Earl of Arundel|Earl of Arundel]] ([[User talk:Earl of Arundel|talk]]) 03:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC) |
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{{od}} I am very sorry to revert the edit by Earl of Arundel.{{According to whom}} <br /> |
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But the content he edited is currently under discussion. And the new wording should have been discussed here before he added it the article directly. —<span style="font-size: 105%; letter-spacing:2pt;"><span style="font-family: monospace, monospace;">usernamekiran</span>[[User talk:Usernamekiran|<span style= "color:blue"><span style="font-family: monospace, monospace;">'''[talk]'''</span></span>]]</span> 04:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC) |
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==Ideas to trim the article== |
==Ideas to trim the article== |
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Opening sentence...
The open sentence in the lede reads:
- "There have been numerous conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963."
...which could, if one were pedantic, be taken to mean there were numerous conspiracy theories on November 22, 1963; not that there have been numerous conspiracy theories since that date. If you see what I mean? An updated version of the sentence might be:
- "There have been numerous conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy since it occurred on November 22, 1963."
Just a thought... FillsHerTease (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Poor Wording in Opening Paragraph
I'm in the process of scouring certain Wikipedia pages for unscholarly/unsupported entries. This first paragraph is awful.
<<In 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that a second gunman other than Oswald probably fired an extra bullet at Kennedy.>> What is an "extra bullet?" Extremely vague.
<<The HSCA did not identify that second shot>> So it was a "second shot," not an "extra shot?" How many shots is that? In what order were they fired? This is way too vague to qualify as encyclopedic material. 5198blk (talk) 03:15, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
- Hey 5198, I completely agree with you. Please feel free to rewrite this - I'd put some drafts here for consensus before you put it on the main page though. I obviously don't accept these theories but I've always thought those views should be properly presented - but this page is, as you say, a real mess and not well-written. Canada Jack (talk) 03:27, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
My suggestion: "In 1979, the (U.S.) House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that there was another shooter, that more than three shots were fired, and that the assassination was likely a conspiracy." 5198blk (talk) 06:09, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Move article
I would like to rename this article to 'John F. Kennedy assassination fringe theories' and had wondered what other editors thought of this. The reason being that all assassination conspiracy theories are fringe theories, but not all fringe theories relating to this assassination are assassination conspiracy theories - notably the accidental shooting theory by Bonar Menninger. Thank you for your time. CodeBadger (talk) 01:21, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- @CodeBadger: Is there a source that calls them "fringe theories"? Everything that I've seen says "conspiracy theories," and WP:COMMONNAME suggests we should stick with that. FallingGravity 03:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Codebadger has already been told in the edit summaries undoing his moves (by User:Dr.K.)[1] [2] and on his talk page (by User:Acroterion ) [3] to discuss this contested move at WP:RM. I doubt this move will be accepted since the fringe theories section is only about 2% of the article, but that's where to raise it. Meters (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I thought it might be best to make a comment about the proposed move on the Talk page as well as WP:RM. CodeBadger (talk) 04:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Good to read that you are enthusiastic about the proposed move Meters. Sadly I have other responsibilities to attend and feel I should read all the associated articles before doing so, thus I cannot give you a precise time frame as to when this will be. Cheers. CodeBadger (talk) 05:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
It's worth checking the instructions at WP:RM#Requesting a single page move. Following them will start a discussion here. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll check out the instructions as suggested. CodeBadger (talk) 05:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- CodeBadger, GET CONSENSUS before you make changes on these pages, especially on such a fundamental change as the name of the article. Given the only reason you seek to do this is to accommodate your Agent Hickey theory (see above), and also given that when it comes to disputes with the WC/HSCA conclusions, likely 99% say there was a conspiracy, I suggest that all you need to do here is add something to the lede which mentions that a small number of authors claim Kennedy's death was an accidental shooting. Canada Jack (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Ok. I will get consensus before making any changes. Thanks for your suggestion. CodeBadger (talk) 03:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Disagree with the change. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- I wish to thank everybody who commented on my move request. Much appreciated. I accept the consensus. CodeBadger (talk) 02:38, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Requested move 2 February 2017
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 23:19, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories → John F. Kennedy assassination fringe theories – It seems to me that this article's name should be changed from 'John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories' to 'John F. Kennedy assassination fringe theories' because these assassination conspiracy theories are all fringe theories but not all these assassination fringe theories are conspiracy theories. I believe the term "fringe theories" is a more accurate reflection of the content in this article than "conspiracy theories" and naturally encompasses conspiracy theories. The term "fringe theory" is in common usage so is readily recognizable by the vast majority of literate people. It is true that most fringe theories relating to this assassination are conspiracy theories, but I believe it would be more inclusive and accurate to change the name of this article for the sake of precision and neutrality, while I don't believe the proposed change would harm the article. CodeBadger (talk) 03:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose "Conspiracy theory" is what these are best known as. Searching google for "jfk conspiracy theories" found 57,100 results and "jfk fringe theories" found zero. —DIYeditor (talk) 03:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Per DIYeditor. Dr. K. 03:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose More widely known as "conspiracy theories", which is the most likely term for searches. And a redirect takes care of those who search for "fringe theories". I searched the English Wikipedia website for articles with "fringe theories" in the title and turned up nothing. Sundayclose (talk) 04:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose The fringe or other theories section is only about 2% of this article, so the current title seems appropriate. It seems WP:undue to rename the article for what is almost an after thought in the article. As Sundayclose says, a redirect will easily take care of anyone who happens to be looking for teh much less common topic. Meters (talk) 06:08, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Per WP:COMMONNAME. Shearonink (talk) 06:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Pinging the editors who commented in the move thread before the formal RM was opened and who have not yet posted here: User:Joegoodfriend, User:Canada Jack, User: FallingGravity.
Meters (talk) 06:16, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Pinging the editors who commented in the move thread before the formal RM was opened and who have not yet posted here: User:Joegoodfriend, User:Canada Jack, User: FallingGravity.
- Oppose The vast majority of claims challenging the WC/HSCA conclusions revolve around conspiracies. Other claims that don't involve a conspiracy can be dealt with in a separate section, a brief mention in the lede. Canada Jack (talk) 16:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Per DIYeditor and Dr.K. above, and also per Canada Jack. Actually, per all of the above. warshy (¥¥) 18:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose We don't select article titles based upon what we believe to be "more inclusive and accurate", but by what reliable sources choose to use to refer to the subject of the article. Close per WP:SNOW. --В²C ☎ 20:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Specifying in the main title header that this is solely a list of "assassination fringe theories" appears to suggest that it exists alongside another list of "assassination mainstream theories". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:52, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Couldn't any theory that is not the generally accepted or offered story be considered the subject of a conspiracy to cover it up or deny it, by anyone who was not a believer or refused to consider it as plausible? That would place a fringe theory under the broader term of conspiracy. RM2KX (talk) 23:17, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Three Tramps
Shouldn't the "three tramps" theory be mentioned somewhere? E. Howard Hunt has been mentioned, but as an individual. Three tramps theory states the three people were major participants in the assassination. usernamekiran (talk) 05:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC) usernamekiran (talk) 05:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
- Nothing there. The arrest records have been released and we know who they were. Meters (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
- Three_tramps got its own article. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- The theory may have been debunked, but it was a prominent one for many years and there are some who still claim it to be valid. We, after all, have the clearly delusional and ridiculous David Lifton theory of wound alteration performed before the autopsy, a theory even many CT's find implausible, but the book was a best-seller and it is referenced on this page. Canada Jack (talk) 19:14, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Plausibility is certainly not a criterion. I have no objection to including it. Meters (talk) 19:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- User:Joegoodfriend User:Meters yes, the arrest records were released in 1989. Many people ask why for so many years Dallas PD told that there were no records. They also ask what was the necessity of mainting the secrecy. And there are some who belive these records published in 1989 were "creared" (forgeries?). The point is, this theory is still sort of valid. usernamekiran (talk) 04:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- I think Joegoodfriend was already supporting inclusion, and he and Canada Jack have already convinced me that inclusion is reasonable. Go ahead and add it if you like. Meters (talk) 04:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks User:Meters. But in which section should i add it? In "conspiracy theories" or "allegations of other conspirators"? usernamekiran (talk) 18:21, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- I think Joegoodfriend was already supporting inclusion, and he and Canada Jack have already convinced me that inclusion is reasonable. Go ahead and add it if you like. Meters (talk) 04:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- User:Joegoodfriend User:Meters yes, the arrest records were released in 1989. Many people ask why for so many years Dallas PD told that there were no records. They also ask what was the necessity of mainting the secrecy. And there are some who belive these records published in 1989 were "creared" (forgeries?). The point is, this theory is still sort of valid. usernamekiran (talk) 04:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Plausibility is certainly not a criterion. I have no objection to including it. Meters (talk) 19:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- The theory may have been debunked, but it was a prominent one for many years and there are some who still claim it to be valid. We, after all, have the clearly delusional and ridiculous David Lifton theory of wound alteration performed before the autopsy, a theory even many CT's find implausible, but the book was a best-seller and it is referenced on this page. Canada Jack (talk) 19:14, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
- Three_tramps got its own article. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
John Connally
I have come across the 'LHO was attempting to kill John Connally' (and JFK was collateral damage) theory - should this be mentioned? 193.132.104.10 (talk) 16:19, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read the article. That theory is already covered. Meters (talk) 19:16, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
- A different theory to that one - LHO was aggrieved with JC because (LHO thought) the latter had officially not pursued something LHO wished him (or the Texas administration in general) to do.
- Given that over 50 years have passed since the event, and nothing has been discovered in the records (Former Soviet Union/Eastern Europe), 'letter to be opened after my death', crackdowns on various criminal operations etc is it likely any new and definitive evidence will turn up?
- For many democracies and some other types of states 'do what we say or we will scupper your re-election' will almost always carry a lesser penalty than killing the said politician - which would apply to most of the proposed originators of a plot in this case. (Getting somewhere between the speculative and Sherlock Holmes' eliminating the impossible - which may fall within a WP talk page remit.) 193.132.104.10 (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- Lee Harvey Oswald sent a letter to John Connally regarding some issue of his naval service. But at that time, Connaly wasnt the secretary of navy anymore. But Connally politely replied Oswad, telling him the same, and also telling him that his letter has been forwarded to the current secretary of navy. There are no proofs, nor any logical reasoning that Oswald had any ill feelings towards Connally. Ergo, if Oswald fired the shots, Connally wan not Oswald's target. And kindly stop using intitals for everybody, as if they are your high school buddies. JFK, RFK, LBJ were publicly known by their initials. Connally was never referred as JC. usernamekiran (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- As I said - 'just mentioning.'
- Lee Harvey Oswald sent a letter to John Connally regarding some issue of his naval service. But at that time, Connaly wasnt the secretary of navy anymore. But Connally politely replied Oswad, telling him the same, and also telling him that his letter has been forwarded to the current secretary of navy. There are no proofs, nor any logical reasoning that Oswald had any ill feelings towards Connally. Ergo, if Oswald fired the shots, Connally wan not Oswald's target. And kindly stop using intitals for everybody, as if they are your high school buddies. JFK, RFK, LBJ were publicly known by their initials. Connally was never referred as JC. usernamekiran (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- For many democracies and some other types of states 'do what we say or we will scupper your re-election' will almost always carry a lesser penalty than killing the said politician - which would apply to most of the proposed originators of a plot in this case. (Getting somewhere between the speculative and Sherlock Holmes' eliminating the impossible - which may fall within a WP talk page remit.) 193.132.104.10 (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
The main problem with the Kennedy assassination - whatever Oswald's precise role in the situation he did not leave a message as to why he did it. (Though there would probably be as many 'discussions at varying angles to reality' analysing such messages as there are now.) 193.132.104.10 (talk) 15:53, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Oswald's stolen identity
While Oswald was in Russia, some person(s) used his identity. FBI was aware of the fact that identity of person being used in US, who is currently in Russia. Edgar Hoover even sent a memorandum regarding that (i have a hard copy of that memorandum somewhere). I think that stolen identity scenario should be mentioned in the article. usernamekiran (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Rafael Cruz
Honestly, I don't think that this should be included in the article. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_35#National_Enquirer it doesn't look like the National Enquirer is considered a reliable source by Wikipedia. Unless and until a RS is found that can independently corroborate it, it should come out. Almostfm (talk) 02:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
February 2017
Hello @Acroterion:
I saw you reverted my revert. But i did not understand your reasoning. Would you please put it in simple words? Thanks. usernamekiran (talk) 03:17, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- An IP with a history of enthusiasm for conspiracy theories inserted the inappropriate editorializing in Wikipedia's voice a few days ago [4]. Please do not reinstate it. Acroterion (talk) 03:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- roger. usernamekiran (talk) 03:42, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
New page for conspiracies surrounding Oswald?
I think it is time to do it. The theories regarding Oswald keep on increasing with time. Creating the new page will reduce the size of this page by 20%. And also, there will be a lot more theories after Oct 26, 2017. What do you people think? usernamekiran (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- The biggest problem here is that small points of evidence have been given entire paragraphs. The problems surrounding Helen Markham's statements have been given more than 100 words. That could easily be reduced to a single sentence with all the same citations. If we start working on that, there will plenty of room for more Oswald stuff. Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:43, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- that's true @Joegoodfriend: but even after that, this page has will have like only 30% content regarding Oswald. And there are few theories that haven't been mentioned. I had them in mind, but I forgot. One of them is someone pretending to be Oswald. If we create a new page, there would be room for these theories. And I think a lot more theories will come up after Oct 2017. I think it will be better if we are prepared. But for now, as we discussed earlier, we can work on reducing these two pages. Should the necessity arise after Oct 2017, we can create the new page then. —usernamekiran (talk) 02:44, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
- I am all in favor of moving larger segments of this article to appropriate sub-articles (e.g. the New Orleans conspiracy, the mob did it, Johnson did it, etc.), but I don't think this is the proper way to do it since every theory involves Oswald to some extent. What is the proper way to do it? Perhaps I'll start a new thread on that. -Location (talk) 06:13, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Current status versus possible interpretations of the HSCA report
Specifically with respect to the nature of edits such as this one by User:Canada Jack, we should be careful not to attempt to nullify the HSCA's findings here. Its conclusion, "on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" certainly has many detractors, but notwithstanding, as no other official process has ever risen to overturn it, there really is no basis for us to do so either (whether by drawing on certain interpretations of its validity by some other party or otherwise comparing it to any other (independent) federal investigation). Earl of Arundel (talk) 06:42, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Earl. I reverted your incorrect assertion that the conclusion of "conspiracy" was "partly" based on the acoustic evidence. In fact, as is stated in the report dissent, the conclusion was ENTIRELY predicated on that evidence, other evidence "tended" to corroborate that conclusion (witness reports etc). This is said explicitly in Edgar's dissent:
- Was there a conspiracy? I agree with the December 13, 1978, first draft of our final report which states on page 64
- "The committee finds that the available scientific evidence is insufficient to find that there was a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy."
- Up to that moment in the life of the committee, we were prepared to go to the American people with this conclusion. Only after the report of Mark R. Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy [i.e. the dictabelt evidence], in the 11th hour of our investigation, was the majority persuaded to vote for two gunmen and a conspiracy. I respectfully dissented.
- Canada Jack (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- An added note here. This is no trivial point. While Earl of Arundel is correct to note that nothing will change the conclusion of the HSCA, as that was what they concluded in 1979, the fact that the acoustic evidence was cited within the very report itself as having changed the conclusion of insufficient evidence of conspiracy to one of probable conspiracy, and the fact that this evidence was subsequently found to be incorrect, means it is pertinent to underline the basis of the conspiracy conclusion was this tainted evidence. (It was the scientific evidence, btw, which drove the conspiracy conclusion, not the other evidence - such as witness accounts, other potential conspirators, Oswald's relationship with certain people, etc.) Canada Jack (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- I will say this. The HSCA report is indeed an inherently paradoxical document, and this I think is really the main source of confusion. On one hand it topically categorizes its findings and lays out the evidence accordingly. On closer inspection, however, its acceptance of said evidence as fact is rather noncommittal which, admittedly, does not reflect consistently with the conclusions reached! And also, as you point out, a lot of the discussion between members does seem to focus on the weight of the acoustical evidence. So that leaves us, as editors, with the conundrum of either presenting its findings as verbatim (almost pedantically) or otherwise by stretch of implication. Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be somewhere in between, such as "(The HSCA's ruling was largely based on analysis of...)" or some such. Earl of Arundel (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Not sure why you saw the need to go to the NO OR page here, Arundel. I am rather well-versed in the subject and further discussion would have allowed me to present material from the Report itself which established my position - that the conclusion of "conspiracy" was solely driven by the acoustic evidence. It's not my interpretation, it's the exact view of two of the committee members! The following is what I posted on the NO OR page in response to your posting.:
- Earl of Arundel has this exactly backwards. He cites no source to back his claim that the HSCA's conclusion of "conspiracy" in regards to the Kennedy assassination was "partially" driven by the acoustic evidence. It's not there in what he posted, indeed the only actual evidence cited... is the acoustic evidence. So he is the one engaged in original research - actually, not even that, as he cites no source for his claim, and what he has posted heavily implies that it was the sole driving force behind the conclusion.
- The dispute here arises because I omitted "partially." In fact the conclusion was driven solely by the acoustic evidence, and I presented the reference which states exactly that. From the Report's dissent by committee member Robert Edgar:
- Was there a conspiracy? I agree with the December 13, 1978, first draft of our final report which states on page 64
- "The committee finds that the available scientific evidence is insufficient to find that there was a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy."
- Up to that moment in the life of the committee, we were prepared to go to the American people with this conclusion. Only after the report of Mark R. Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy [i.e. the dictabelt ::::evidence], in the 11th hour of our investigation, was the majority persuaded to vote for two gunmen and a conspiracy. I respectfully dissented.
- I didn't post the following, but from the same HSCA Report, a dual dissent by Samuel Devine and Robert Edgar which buttresses my contention:
- "The testimony of acoustical experts was given such weight that most committee members were persuaded that a fourth shot was fired at Kennedy." and "Based on this evidence and testimony [the acoustic evidence], a majority of the select committee concluded there was a 'high probability of a conspiracy.'" And, from Edgar's separate dissent, an even more explicit link to the evidence and the "conspiracy" conclusion: "We found no evidence to suggest a conspiracy. We found no gunmen or evidence of a gunman. We found no gun, no shells, no impact of shots from the grassy knoll. We found no entry wounds from the front into any person, including President John Kennedy and Gov. John Connally. We found no bullets or fragments of bullets that did not belong to the Oswald weapon. And we found little, if any, evidence of partnership with Lee Harvey Oswald. Few credible ear-witness accounts back up the marginal findings of our acoustics experts." Further, in asking questions about the acoustic evidence, he says this: "Do we know enough to make our judgment on conspiracy accurate? To the last question, I say no." This again underlines the fact that the acoustic evidence drove the conclusion. And... "Did we rush to a conspiratorial conclusion? I believe that exhibit "A" will clearly demonstrate a rush to conspiratorial conclusions." For Exhibit "A," see below.
- Edgar in his dissent reproduced in several columns the changes in conclusions from the initial Dec 13 1978 draft.
- DRAFT REPORT: "There is insufficient evidence to find that there was a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy."
- FINAL REPORT: "Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that 2 gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of 2 gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations."
- The only evidence which they had been presented between the Dec 13 draft and the Dec 29 final report wa the conclusion regarding the dictabelt evidence. The witness testimony was only cited as it generally corroborated that revised conclusion - it didn't suffice on its own to warrant that conclusion as is clear from the draft report.
- There is no "original research", no "synthesis" here, my point that the acoustic evidence drove the conclusion of "conspiracy" is explicitly from the Report itself, and Earl of Arundel has thus far posted nothing to back his contention that the dictabelt only partly drove the conclusion. Canada Jack (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2017 (UTC) Canada Jack (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
The onus is on you, Earl of Arundel, to cite something which says the conclusion of conspiracy was only "partially" driven by the acoustic evidence. So far, you've failed to do so. It wasn't in the conclusions you posted to the NO OR page - indeed, as I said above, the only evidence cited in that conclusion... was the acoustic evidence, implying exactly what I claimed! Canada Jack (talk) 20:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have in fact cited very plainly which specific paragraphs (that is, 1.B. and 1.C.) in the HSCA report refer to each conclusion in question. The statements of dissenting members are not nearly as relevant, as their views are in substance immaterial to (as they are in conflict with) the official findings of the report (hence, the reason for their dissent).Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- The dissent spells out the original conclusion before the dictabelt evidence was presented, and the changed conclusion after the evidence was presented, thus establishing the case the dissenting members of the committee made. Further, the two dissenting members explicitly state that it was this evidence which drove the conclusion, and it was on this basis I changed the text. The onus is on you to identify where the Committee's conclusion only "partly" was driven by the acoustic evidence. You have yet to identify where this is to be found in the Report. The paragraphs you cite fail to state what you claim here.
- IOW, I have cited sources for my claim, you have failed to cite a source for your claim. Canada Jack (talk) 22:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm surprised by your views on this, Arundel. My views are not particularly controversial - the fact the committee changed their conclusion based on the acoustic evidence has been known, well, since 1979. It would be easy to cite numerous secondary sources which make the precise point I am making, but the evidence from the Report's dissent is quite strong. Are you aware of the long and tortured history of the HSCA? They had drafted their report after 2 years of hearings by the end of 1978. Then, the acoustic evidence was presented, changing the conclusion. I've even posted the original conclusions!
- But, as I said, the onus is on you to show where the conclusion only "partly" came from the acoustic evidence. The fact you think this is Original Reseach on my part says to me you weren't previously aware of the history of the HSCA, or were relying too heavily on biased sources who had their facts wrong, or had omitted pertinent information. Canada Jack (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- i agree with Jack from Canada, not with Earl from Arundel. —usernamekiran (talk) 20:57, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Rather than continue discussion of this issue on CanadaJack's talk page, I'm just reposting the most current comments from there to here:
- What "synthesis" of the report are you talking about? The dissent quite plainly describes the change in the fundamental conclusion of the committee owing to the receipt of the dictabelt evidence. The only one who is imposing their personal beliefs here is you, a belief that the conclusion was derived from multiple lines of evidence when the conclusion itself cites only one piece of evidence suggesting multiple gunmen - the dictabelt evidence! This is not controversial, Earl, and I'm amazed you are extending this debate this far. Canada Jack (talk) 03:10, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Follow the layout of the report carefully and you will readily see that the findings are organized in a logical fashion. Exactly four of them are delineated, but only two concern the possible involvement of co-conspirators: again, they are 1.B. and 1.C. . Each of those two individual findings contain corresponding sets of evidence and the discussions thereof; the first set addresses the acoustical evidence that ostensibly led to the conclusion reached in the first finding, and similarly the second set specifically addresses the "probable existence" of conspiracy concluded in the second finding. Those are the only official findings relevant to our discussion here. Full stop. The opinions of the dissenting members are at direct conflict and in direct opposition with these findings. Maybe the rulings were changed at the eleventh hour or ninety-nine percent of the internal debate really did focus on the role of the dictabelt evidence with respect to possible conspiracy. It's all interesting and notable, but it just doesn't change the fact that the findings are the findings, and those alone should be used as the final word in the commission's overall assessment. And this is what puzzles me about your insistence on emphasising the importance of the opinions of dissent. Because it's synthesis insofar as it's essentially heresay, strictly speaking. For all it's worth, a dissenting member could just as well have asserted that Kennedy had instead been zapped by Martian death-rays and it wouldn't really matter. So he dissents, and that's fine. That's the whole point of dissenting opinion, after all. Earl of Arundel (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- The onus is on you, Earl of Arundel, to cite something which says the conclusion of conspiracy was only "partially" driven by the acoustic evidence.
- OK, here's what the Report says: "On the basis of extensive scientific analysis and an analysis of the testimony of Dealey Plaza witnesses, the committee found there was a high probability that two gunmen fired at President Kennedy." Obviously, the Dealey Plaza witnesses did not testify re the Dictabelt. Case closed. Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:11, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Clarifying what the HSCA in fact concluded on conspiracy
Since correcting Earl of Arundel on the basis of the HSCA conclusion of "conspiracy," I have experienced what I consider to be an over-the-top reaction (and I've been an editor here for 11 years so I feel I can gauge that) over what amounts to a single word I changed - from "partly" based on the acoustic evidence to "solely" based on the acoustic evidence. I have been accused of engaging in Original Research, of synthesizing sources to insert a personally preferred conclusion, and of acting in bad faith. I am innocent of all charges!
I've cited text from the dissent. Arundel complains "[t]he statements of dissenting members are not nearly as relevant, as their views are in substance immaterial to (as they are in conflict with) the official findings of the report (hence, the reason for their dissent)." This is specious reasoning. Just because they disagree with the conclusion doesn't mean they have nothing relevant to say as to how that conclusion was reached! And, as they themselves point out, the committee was prepared to go to the American public with a conclusion of no evidence of conspiracy up to the last minute until the dictabelt evidence was presented. Their posting of the relevant conclusions before and after the evidence was presented clearly establishes the validity of their argument.
If this was not so, then what changed the mind, after more than two years of testimony, investigations and evidence, of the committee? If there was something else besides the dictabelt evidence - the sole evidence cited in the conclusion of the final report, by the way - then what was it? A better question is: If the dictabelt evidence was not presented or was discredited when presented, what would the conclusion have been? Well, we know the answer to that as the draft report saw all the evidence - save for the dictabelt evidence - and concluded no compelling evidence of conspiracy!
But even more than that, we have the final report which cites only the dictabelt evidence as being conclusive proof - or very nearly so - of a conspiracy to kill president Kennedy.
Here is what Arundel said on the NO OR noticeboard:
Paragraph 1.C. concludes that "the committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy". To support that finding, many connections between Oswald and various other people and groups are drawn. Nowhere, however, in this specific finding is there any reference to the acoustical evidence.
Arundel is correct that there is no reference there to the acoustic evidence. But he is incorrect when he states "many connections between Oswald and various other people and groups are drawn." In fact, the committee found NO compelling evidence to conclude "conspiracy" either with Oswald's associations, or with various often-mentioned possible conspirators he may have been connected to. The committee lists various organizations - the CIA, FBI, Mafia, pro- and anti-Cuban groups, the Soviets etc. - and says there was no evidence of any of their involvement. It leaves the door open for individual actors in some of those groups, but it certainly made no conclusion that they were in fact involved in the conspiracy they identified.
As for Oswald's associations, the committee in fact stated that based on their evidence, it could have been limited to him and the second gunman! On page 97 of the Report, the committee states the 4 premises on which they based conspiracy: 1) The WC's flawed investigation of conspiracy meant their conclusion of no conspiracy could not be given independent weight; 2) The WC's conclusion that Oswald and Ruby had no association was incorrect and therefore that conclusion could not rule out the possibility of conspiracy; 3) the association of Oswald and Ruby could not by itself infer the involvement of a larger conspiracy, but did not rule out the possibility of a small conspiracy; 4) There was a high probability that a second gunman was involved. But since the HSCA on the next page admits that the conspiracy could have been limited to Oswald and the second gunman - who could not have been Ruby - the sole premise driving the conclusion of conspiracy was #4 - the second gunman. And where did this "high probability" of a second gunman come from? The dictabelt evidence.
How do we know the dictabelt was the sole evidence driving the conclusion, as per the final report (as opposed to the dissent)? It's in the section describing the scientific evidence. For one, the section head says it quite plainly: "scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President." If you read the section detailing these conclusions, you will find extensive discussion of the dictabelt evidence. Then, a discussion of the attempts to calibrate the Zapruder film with the dictabelt evidence. The committee concluded the film does corroborate the dictabelt evidence but, and this is crucial to note, since they also concluded only Oswald's shot struck anyone and the second gunman missed, the Zapruder film does not independently supply evidence of a conspiracy.
Further, the committee says this: "Scientifically, the existence of a second gunman was only established by the acoustical study, but its basic validity was corroborated or independently substantiated by the other various scientific projects." That statement nails it. Without the "acoustical study," there was no scientific validation of the conspiracy contention, and the possibility of a conspiracy was not established as it was based on this scientific conclusion. It further stated that the photographic evidence could not establish the presence of a second gunman, and the witness testimony on hearing shots from the knoll were such that "the statistics are an unreliable foundation upon which to rely with great confidence for any specific finding."
In sum, the evidence as presented in the final HSCA Report clearly establishes that the committee while suggesting a stronger association between Ruby and Oswald, could not conclude that they were involved in a conspiracy together, and separately found no evidence that other groups were involved, though it could not rule out individual players. And that, indeed, the conspiracy they identified could have been limited, based on the evidence they had, to Oswald and the second gunman. Further, the basis for their conclusion of a second gunman was the scientific evidence which the committee clearly stated was only definitively established by the acoustic evidence.
Therefore, the text of the final report itself corroborates the contention of the authors of the dissent - that it was only the acoustic evidence which drove the conclusion of conspiracy - and that absent that, as per the draft report and the text of the final report, a conclusion of "no evidence of conspiracy" would have been reached otherwise.
And, for the purposes of wikipedia, since these conclusions are stated explicitly in the dissent (primary source) and stated by secondary sources (Bugliosi, Posner. etc), there is no "synthesis" or "original research" involved here. Canada Jack (talk) 04:51, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's a compelling argument, but only up to the point that it requires the reader to infer that the terms "possible conspiracy" and "possible second gunman" are necessarily synonymous. They are not. And as you have already pointed out (although only in an attempt to brush it aside), the report states in no uncertain terms:
The committee's finding that President Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy was premised on four factors:
- Since the Warren Commission's and FBI's investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy was seriously flawed, their failure to develop evidence of a conspiracy could not be given independent weight.
- The Warren Commission was, in fact, incorrect in concluding that Oswald and Ruby had no significant associations, and therefore its finding of no conspiracy was not reliable.
- While it cannot be inferred from the significant associations of Oswald and Ruby that any of the major groups examined by the committee were involved in the assassination, a more limited conspiracy could not be ruled out.
- There was a high probability that a second gunman, in fact, fired at the President.
- Even if the committee's examination of acoustical evidence was indeed faulty, that still only applies to at most two of the above premises. Hence, it is therefore entirely reasonable (and moreover consistent with the specific wording of the report) to state in the article that 'The HSCA's ruling was partially based on analysis of the so-called "dictabelt recordings"'. Nevermind that, you say: "[...] since the HSCA on the next page admits that the conspiracy could have been limited to Oswald and the second gunman - who could not have been Ruby - the sole premise driving the conclusion of conspiracy was #4 - the second gunman. And where did this 'high probability' of a second gunman come from? The dictabelt evidence." Elementary, my dear Watson! That's a blatantly synthesized interpretation, to put it mildly. Earl of Arundel (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi. This debate has turned into another "never argue with someone who buys ink by the barrel" situation. Are we debating different edits to the article? If so, great: someone please lay out the different edits word for word and we'll see if we can get an consensus on one of them. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Fair enough, Joe, though this is an interesting discussion. I'll keep this short. Well, I'll try.
- Simply put, the discussion is on whether the HSCA's conclusion of "conspiracy" was partly or solely based on the dictabelt evidence, and therefore how we characterize that in the lede of the page.
- There are two arguments I've made to say that the conclusion of "conspiracy" was based soley on the dictabelt evidence. The first is from the dissent itself, where two of the committee members state exactly that - the committee had already concluded there was no convincing evidence of a conspiracy until the 11th-hour presentation of that evidence. And they reproduced the language with shows that. Duke of Arundel's argument, which to me is a complete non-sequitor, is that because they didn't agree with the committee's conclusion, their views are not relevant. It's a non-sequitor because there is no logical requirement for someone to agree with a conclusion if they are discussing HOW that conclusion came about. They were part of the committee! Their views carry weight because they were part of the deliberative process! Are we to dismiss the views of one of the Framers of the American Constitution on how they deliberated simply because one of his proposals was not agreed upon? Your argument makes zero sense. Besides, and this can't be overstated, the dissent is part of the final report, and D of A is dismissing this part of the report he otherwise agrees with! For no logical reason. IOW, the main source for the contention the dictabelt evidence drove the conclusion of "conspiracy" is the report itself!
- Given the Report itself plainly states the evidence drove the conclusion, that is sufficient for our purposes.
- That's a blatantly synthesized interpretation, to put it mildly [in reference to my discussion of the body of the report] You misunderstand what I was doing. The dissent spells it out, that the conclusion was driven by the dictabelt evidence. But because you have been erroneously stating that the committee concluded other evidence also drove the conclusion, I showed that that is in fact not the case. It's not "synthesis" because I had always maintained we need only go by the dissent. I'm not arguing that we should keep the language I suggest because of my reading of the body of the report; I am arguing we should do so because the dissent explicitly says what I assert.
- Anyway, secondly, the body of the report clearly only cites one piece of evidence which established "conspiracy" - the dictabelt evidence. It is clear to me that Duke of Arundel has not carefully read the report. Elsewhere, he claimed that the HSCA concluded that Oswald was involved with various groups. "To support that finding [of probable conspiracy], many connections between Oswald and various other people and groups are drawn." The problem with that claim is it is false, at least in terms of the HSCA concluding he had any conspiracy relationship with anyone else. I challenge Arundel to find where the committee concluded this. Further, it is clear he has not closely read the 4 factors above which led to their conclusion. The 4th deals with the dictabelt evidence, but the other three are not positive examples of evidence of conspiracy, they are assertions by the committee that the Warren Commission's conclusion of no relationship between Oswald and Ruby were wrong and therefore the possibility of conspiracy there could not be ruled out, but the committee crucially did not conclude there was a conspiracy relationship between the two or between those two and others! This is crystal-clear in the body of the report! IOW, there is no "evidence" here suggesting a conclusion of "conspiracy," the committee merely doesn't dismiss the possibility of there being a conspiracy here as the Warren Commission did, an entirely different thing! Again, I challenge Duke of Arundel to cite where the committee concludes a likely "conspiracy" between Oswald and Ruby and/or other connected players. Recall, we are debating whether the dictabelt evidence was sufficient for the conclusion, or whether there is other evidence. The 3 other factors are not "evidence"; they are assertions that the possibility of conspiracy were wrongly dismissed by the Warren Commission.
- Therefore, my points stand as the committee is left with only one line of evidence driving the "conspiracy" conclusion - the acoustic dictabelt evidence. Therefore, as the Report itself confirms that the dictabelt evidence drove the conclusion of conspiracy (explicit in the dissent and upon a careful reading of the committee's actual conclusions), we should keep the language saying the conclusion was driven solely by that evidence, though the dissent is sufficient for the purposes of wikipedia. Canada Jack (talk) 21:26, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- the body of the report clearly only cites one piece of evidence which established "conspiracy" - the dictabelt evidence. Jack, that's your opinion, otherwise known as original research. But never mind; the Committee can, for example, find the body of evidence compelling enough to reach a conclusion without citing any particular piece(s) of evidence. The dissent is relevant, but it's of limited relevance compared to the official conclusion and its wording.
- To quote the Report, "On the basis of extensive scientific analysis and an analysis of the testimony of Dealey Plaza witnesses, the committee found there was a high probability that two gunmen fired at President Kennedy."
- I've never disagreed with an edit you've made, but I don't see how I can agree here. Joegoodfriend (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- "Jack, that's your opinion, otherwise known as original research." As I said, Joe, the dissent clearly states that the dictabelt evidence solely drove the conclusion. The two members explicitly say that. Your quote doesn't say what evidence drove the conclusion, that's your interpretation of what they said. THAT'S original research. Canada Jack (talk) 21:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Jack. I will try to put in as little words, and in as simple language as possible. The witnesses who stated they heard the shots from any other location(s) than TSBD, were either deemed uncredible, or inexperienced regarding gun-fires, or were claimed as "they mistook echoes for actual sound". It was the last moment dictabelt evidence which changed the conclusion. The HSCA criticised previous investigations, and the institutions (FBI, SS...). But the report doesnt say Oswald was connected with any organisation, incuding CIA. It concluded high probablity of conspiracy, because there was evidence of another gunman; the evidence being the dictabelt recording. HSCA didnt consider other "evidences" as proofs, it merely considered them as things that corroborate(d) with the "evidence" (the dictabelt). In other words, if there was no dictabelt, the testimonies would have received the same treatment as received my Warren commission. Same goes for "other evidences". Bottomline, conclusion of "probable conspiracy" was based solely on dictablet.
- "Jack, that's your opinion, otherwise known as original research." As I said, Joe, the dissent clearly states that the dictabelt evidence solely drove the conclusion. The two members explicitly say that. Your quote doesn't say what evidence drove the conclusion, that's your interpretation of what they said. THAT'S original research. Canada Jack (talk) 21:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Note: I used to read report of Warren commission as my remedy for insomnia which worked. Later I re-read these two reports numerous times. Few times, it was start-to-end, and for many times it was "section to section" which i still do. And it is not just that, I have gone through numerous memos, numerous communications between and/or within CIA, FBI, DOJ and many more. And I downloaded all these documents by myself from official government cites of CIA, NARA, FBI, GPO among many others. I am young (1988) and goofy, but not an idiot. And when it comes to JFK, I am certainly not ignorant. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- the dissent clearly states that the dictabelt evidence solely drove the conclusion. But the majority didn't agree with the dissenters, as is made clear in the words of the Report. You're saying the minority opinion so completely outweighes the actual wording of the Report, agreed upon by the majority, that this article should rely on the dissent and ignore the actual conclusion? Disagree.
- The witnesses who stated they heard the shots from any other location(s) than TSBD, were either deemed uncredible, or inexperienced regarding gun-fires, or were claimed as "they mistook echoes for actual sound". I'm sorry that makes no sense, given that -one more time- "On the basis of extensive scientific analysis and an analysis of the testimony of Dealey Plaza witnesses, the committee found there was a high probability that two gunmen fired at President Kennedy." Joegoodfriend (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Precisely. Not to mention that the committee isn't actually obligated to supply evidence to support their rulings in the first place. They reach their final conclusions by consensus, regardless if one member arrives there by considering this exhibit and another by that one, even though each may disagree about the fundamental credibility of the piece(s) of evidence used by the other to base their decision. At the end of the day, the findings are what count. They represent the legal analogue of the final judgement of the court. The HSCA cited the factors with which they based their rulings. It isn't our job here to question whether they meant it or not. Earl of Arundel (talk) 00:03, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- For posterity's sake, this is a diff of the disputed revisions. Earl of Arundel (talk) 00:26, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Note: I used to read report of Warren commission as my remedy for insomnia which worked. Later I re-read these two reports numerous times. Few times, it was start-to-end, and for many times it was "section to section" which i still do. And it is not just that, I have gone through numerous memos, numerous communications between and/or within CIA, FBI, DOJ and many more. And I downloaded all these documents by myself from official government cites of CIA, NARA, FBI, GPO among many others. I am young (1988) and goofy, but not an idiot. And when it comes to JFK, I am certainly not ignorant. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
@Joegoodfriend: hey Joe :)
@Earl of Arundel: Would you eulogise idiosyncratic scintillating onomasticon website to me?
I was trying to keep my points as little as possible, with simple language. I was not expecting users playing with the meaning of the words. So here is some "robotic conversation":
In March 1965, Harold Feldman wrote that there were 121 witnesses to the assassination listed in the Warren Report, of whom 51 indicated that the shots that killed Kennedy came from the area of the grassy knoll, while 32 said the shots came from the Texas School Book Depository. (ref name="Feldman") In 1967, Josiah Thompson examined the statements of 64 witnesses and concluded that 33 of them thought that the shots emanated from the Grassy Knoll. (sfn|Bugliosi|2007|p=847)
Of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from the direction of the Depository or from near its Houston and Elm Streets intersection that was to the rear of the President, 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from the direction of the grassy knoll or the triple underpass located to the right and front of the President, eight witnesses gave statements of shots fired from elsewhere, and five earwitnesses testified that the shots were fired from two different directions. Dealey Plaza Ear witnesses
- usernamekiran's comments: If there were so many people who claimed hearing shots grassy knoll, then why did not Warrent commission give it a consideration? Becuase, as i said previously, and i am quoting myself: The witnesses who stated they heard the shots from any other location(s) than TSBD, were either deemed uncredible, or inexperienced regarding gun-fires, or were claimed as "they mistook echoes for actual sound" [by the warren commission].
HSCA was going to do the same, when the dictabelt evidence came up, HSCA said "the testimonies support the dictabelt". The conclusion was not based on anything else than the dictabelt.
Arnold Rowland was standing on the east side of Houston Street, facing the TSBD. Warren commission.
Mr Specter :Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?
Mr Rowland :Well, I began looking, I didn’t look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers there will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.…
Mr Specter :Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?
Mr Rowland :The same point or very close to it.
Mr Specter :And how about the third shot?
Mr Rowland :Very close to the same position.…
Mr Specter :After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr Rowland :No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.
Mr Specter :Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?
Mr Rowland :I don’t remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area “C”, and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn’t pay any attention to it at that time. Warren transcript
Kindly dont make a Rowland out of me. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please stay on topic. This isn't a debate about our own opinions about what happened in Dealey Plaza or whatever the Warren Commission report has to say about it. The question is simply "what portion of the HSCA report's findings are premised on the dictabelt evidence?". According to the report itself there were four premises in total (see above). Are you saying that all four of these are dependant on the acoustical evidence? Earl of Arundel (talk) 05:04, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- I am not deviating from the topic. Why did you think so? I was trying to make the point how the dictabelt changed perspective of HSCA. You made a Rowland out of me afterall.
- # 1 You say HSCA's finding that President Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy was premised on four factors first of which: Since the Warren Commission's and FBI's investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy was seriously flawed, their failure to develop evidence of a conspiracy could not be given independent weight. are you kidding me with that? How can ANY finding be based on the previous grammatical statement?
- # 2 The Warren Commission was, in fact, incorrect in concluding that Oswald and Ruby had no significant associations, and therefore its finding of no conspiracy was not reliable.
- In other words, in above statement HSCA states "commission's find (regarding something) was not relaible." That doesnt mean HSCA believes there was a conspiracy and/or that the commision tried to cover up the conspiracy. It simply states the results are unreliable. Example: I give a commission some chemicals, apparatus and blood sample, and tell it to measure sugar levels in the blood. The commission tested the sugar levels, and they found out that the sugar levels are within the normal range. Then you and me find out, even though commission had access to precise instruments/chemicals, their method of measuring the sugar was flawed, so i (he committee in example) declared "the commission's report on sugar levels is not reliable". Then you are saying, "committee's finding that blood sugar level was probably high; was based on the fact that committee beleived commission's method was flawed." Yup. Thats what is going on here. How can you say the sugar level isnt below than normal?
- # 3: While it cannot be inferred from the significant associations of Oswald and Ruby that any of the major groups examined by the committee were involved in the assassination, a more limited conspiracy could not be ruled out.
- You must be kidding here. The statement above deals with the extent of conspiracy. Committe says there were significant assciations of Oswald and few major groups (which committee examined), and from these examinations it can not be deduced if these groups were involved or not. Same goes for Ruby. So the committee states: a limited conspiracy can not be ruled out.
- This statement talks about the extent of a conspiracy, assuming there was one already.
- # 4 high probability of a second gunman firing at JFK.
- how did the committie come to that conclusion? From the fact that Oswald was drinking a cola in TSBD, or from the fact that JFK had breakfast in Fort Worth that morning?
- your "four factors" are grammatical sentences. At the least, the committie's conclusion of conspiracy was not based on them. —usernamekiran (talk) 06:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- I am not deviating from the topic. Why did you think so? I was trying to make the point how the dictabelt changed perspective of HSCA. You made a Rowland out of me afterall.
- I think I have a fairly straightforward solution to this issue. I think it's pertinent to note the dissent for the simple reason the identified evidence was later found to be not indicative of an actual second gunman. If this was Richard Russell and the single bullet theory, well, we'd need not make much of that as the SBT hasn't been subsequently disproven.
- So... how about language along the lines of "The HSCA's ruling was, according to the report's dissenters, based on analysis of the so-called "dictabelt recordings" obtained from..." In this way, the issue is flagged but we, Earl and I (and I apologize, I think I called you "Duke" at one point, my mistake, not being snide), can leave that issue of whether the report itself actually can be seen to be based solely on that evidence to the side. Fair enough? Canada Jack (talk) 14:23, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- i am okay with that. :) But we need to consider Joe's vote as well. He has been here long before me, contriuted here profoundly, and you two go a long way back together. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- But the majority didn't agree with the dissenters, as is made clear in the words of the Report. You're saying the minority opinion so completely outweighes the actual wording of the Report, agreed upon by the majority, that this article should rely on the dissent and ignore the actual conclusion? Disagree.
- Joe (and Earl, who agrees with Jos), you miss the point. Obviously, the dissenters' views didn't carry the day on the evidence, but I'm not saying that their view on the veracity on the evidence should be flagged (they lost that argument, obviously): I'm saying their point that the conclusion of "conspiracy" so completely relying on that evidence renders that conclusion suspect if the evidence was found wanting later. And because it WAS found wanting and was debunked, this is a crucial point to make. I think it's a fair compromise to make the point that - in the view of the dissenters - the "conspiracy" conclusion was based on that evidence, later debunked.
- Now, we could go back and forth on what, exactly, the report says and whether in fact we can determine it relies solely on that evidence or not, and even if I make a case you agree with, it would be Original Research as Earl correct;y points out to make a determination based on our interpretation of the report. But we don't need to do that, we simply need to note that the dissenters felt the conclusion of "conspiracy" relied in their view too heavily on this single piece of evidence, and in fact changed the conclusion from the original "no proof of conspiracy." Canada Jack (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- we simply need to note that the dissenters felt the conclusion of "conspiracy" relied in their view too heavily on this single piece of evidence, and in fact changed the conclusion from the original "no proof of conspiracy."
- Great, if that's what we simply need to do, then I take it you have no problem with text that states that the official conclusion was partially based on the acoustic evidence, as long as the text also thoroughly covers the dissent? Joegoodfriend (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, it has to be stronger than that for two reasons - 1) the dissenters say it was completely based on that evidence, and 2) because the report itself is ambiguous on how much it relied on that evidence. It says "factors" etc but when it comes to compelling "evidence" it only seems to rely on the acoustic evidence as determinative. It goes both ways - to say it's a conclusion "partly" or "completely" relying on the dictabelt evidence based on our various interpretations of the report is Original Research. The report is ambigiuous, a point Earl underlined earlier, and therein lies the rub.
- In contrast, the dissent is explicit on this issue. So, as a compromise, I suggest we flag who is saying it and say: "The HSCA's conclusion of 'conspiracy' was, according to the report's dissenters, based on analysis of the so-called "dictabelt recordings" Canada Jack (talk) 17:06, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, Jack. And just to be clear that by "dissenters" we aren't referring to the media or some other group of outside detractors, it could even be stated more specifically that "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the so-called "dictabelt recordings" obtained from [...]". Earl of Arundel (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good point, Earl. Yes, we should clarify who the dissenters are. Canada Jack (talk) 17:41, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, Jack. And just to be clear that by "dissenters" we aren't referring to the media or some other group of outside detractors, it could even be stated more specifically that "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the so-called "dictabelt recordings" obtained from [...]". Earl of Arundel (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- By following CanadaJack's recommendation we avoid the use of interpretive wording, Joe. In any case, the reader can draw their own conclusions. Earl of Arundel (talk) 18:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Now, we could go back and forth on what, exactly, the report says and whether in fact we can determine it relies solely on that evidence or not, and even if I make a case you agree with, it would be Original Research as Earl correct;y points out to make a determination based on our interpretation of the report. But we don't need to do that, we simply need to note that the dissenters felt the conclusion of "conspiracy" relied in their view too heavily on this single piece of evidence, and in fact changed the conclusion from the original "no proof of conspiracy." Canada Jack (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
somehow, my last comment didnt go through (it is not even in my contribution history). I (unsuccessfully) posted it after Jack's comment of 17:06, 10 March 2017 (UTC). Anyways, what I wanted to say then, is same for now. All the suggestions are good, but i think we should not use the word "so-called". I mean, even though it was flawed, and later discredited, the dictabelt was a real thing, and not some "assumed thing" or forgery. That word reflects like: "so-called video tape of alien autopsy" :-D —usernamekiran (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- The expression "so-called", in this context, is just a common literary device used to introduce something not referred to in previous passages that otherwise might be confusing to a reader not well-versed in the subject. Alternately, the reference to dictabelt could simply be converted to an internal link. It leaves the sentence sounding a bit terse, in my opinion, but otherwise it serves the same purpose. Earl of Arundel (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Second Oswald Theory
Hi editors. I'm putting together my notes to add Second Oswald Theory to this article. That is:
- 1. The theft of Oswalds' identity while he was in the USSR, and how the theft could possibly be tied to other accusations re Oswald.
- 2. The suggestion of an Oswald imposter in Mexico while Oswald was there.
- 3. The reports of someone using Oswald's name in Dallas before the assassination.
- 4. A reference to the article on Silvia Odio.
- I plan to stick to the facts, and will try to stay away from text covering what individual researchers think the facts might mean except when necessary to give context. This article already has way too much "Jim Marrs believes blah blah blah."
- For the record, I do not believe there was an Oswald imposter in Mexico. As for the other incidents, I can state the facts and let people draw their own conclusions. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, there are too much of opinios of individuals. After last discussion about Ossy's identity theft, i couldnt find the FBI memo anywhere online. The one from Edgar, where he says "someone might be using Ossy's birth certificate".
- I find it very strange. Currently that memo/piece of comminication is not on the websites of FBI, CIA, NARA, or GPO. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Even if true (and point #2, at least, is fairly well established), its inclusion would still require some reliable source to answer the question of why it matters (being strong circumstantial evidence of one thing or another). That may be hard to find. That isn't to say that it doesn't matter, of course, just that it wouldn't be very encyclopaedic to proffer speculations otherwise. Earl of Arundel (talk) 20:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- The idea is that if there was a second Oswald, he either was working with Oswald on a plot that included, at least in part, the assassination of JFK or that Oswald was not aware of this person and he was part of a plot to incriminate Oswald. Those two ideas are woven into many of the well-known conspiracy theories, and are supported by many of the published assassination researchers (or crackpots, depending on your point of view). On that tangent, I'm hoping to get through this without a protracted debate on reliable sources. Although I'll be the first to agree that some published sources on the subject are so unreliable that they should never be used for Wikipedia. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm just trying to stress that the article shouldn't be a repository of claims made in books on the subject. If you have a piece in mind that pulls that all together into a cohesive presentation backed by reliable sources, fine, but just strewn about as random points it would definitely comes across as very tabloid-like, IMO. Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Currently working on the text for the Oswald-double in Mexico. As a conspiracy theory, this lies entirely withing CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory, so I'll be adding it there instead of here. Not sure anyone reads that article... Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:17, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Joegoodfriend: looking forward to it. Let me know if i can be of any assistance. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- In my books, points 2, 3 and 4 are worthy of inclusion, but I have yet to see the goods on the claim (point 1) that Hoover was aware someone was using Oswald's alias while he was still in the Soviet Union. I have seen the material on the worry that someone might have taken his birth certificate, a reaction to Oswald's mom's letter about the Swiss school. But I am curious to see more on the claim that someone was actually using that ID, or at least the belief that someone was actually using that ID in 1960, 1961. At this point, if this is simply a misunderstanding of those early memos - raising a red flag about the possibility of identity impersonation by, presumably, Soviet agents, and, more basically, the possibility that the ID was stolen in the first place - then it doesn't warrant inclusion here.
- Point 3 and 4 have been contentious for many years, the Odio claim very hard to explain away. But point 2, Earl of Arundel, is not as solid as your clip seems to indicate. Far from the release of the Lopez Report (part of the HSCA but not released until the 1990s) indicating a "smoking gun," it merely repeats what we knew already - there were unconfirmed reports of Oswald in the company of others, such as with pro-Castro students and attending a "twist" party - and the possibility of in imposter couldn't be ruled out. Indeed, one of the great revelations of the report was the admission that it was "likely" Oswald in fact was the person who went to the embassy! Not something the conspiracy community really wanted to see. Further, there is no doubt he in fact went to Mexico City, the HSCA didn't even bother to re-visit that as the WC covered it and established it beyond reasonable doubt. For me one of the great "mysteries" about the Mexico City claims is, if the CIA was either on to him or setting him up for a fall, why would Oswald himself admit he went, and why would the CIA release photos of someone clearly not Oswald?
- I look forward to whatever is produced for this new section, a section the page clearly calls for. I will, as always, try to include constructive remarks, underlining we have to address WHO is claiming this is an example of a second Oswald, etc. Might be an idea to have an intro from a secondary source such as Buglioisi who puts the "second Oswald" claims in context. Canada Jack (talk) 19:19, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Canada Jack: I never could find anything on that FBI memo. It is strange there is nothing about that in Nataional Archives, or on the website of FBI. The first memo can be seen on several third party webistes though. As we talked about it earlier, the "Sacramento Bee daily" said there were three memos in total by Edgar/FBI around 1960-61 regarding Ossy. A lot of people claim there were these memos. But I never found any of them, nor anybody who knows what these memos talk about. They are just "hear-say" claims i guess.
- As you said, the first memo only castes a doubt if somebody was using Ossy's identity. Nothing more than that. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, a good summary. I feel like the Cuban consulate witnesses who described a person claiming to be Oswald but who did not look like Oswald are hard to believe. If the guy didn't look like Oswald, why didn't they hold up the visa application, which had Oswald's real photo, and say, "Why doesn't this photo look like you?" As for the Texas witnesses, we cannot for example refute those who testified under oath that they met an Oswald who was clearly not Oswald, but there's also little or nothing to substantiate their claims. And of course the related conspiracy is: someone sent fake-Oswald to hang around rifle ranges and car dealerships to help frame the real Oswald. Joegoodfriend (talk) 21:13, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Currently working on the text for the Oswald-double in Mexico. As a conspiracy theory, this lies entirely withing CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory, so I'll be adding it there instead of here. Not sure anyone reads that article... Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:17, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm just trying to stress that the article shouldn't be a repository of claims made in books on the subject. If you have a piece in mind that pulls that all together into a cohesive presentation backed by reliable sources, fine, but just strewn about as random points it would definitely comes across as very tabloid-like, IMO. Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- The idea is that if there was a second Oswald, he either was working with Oswald on a plot that included, at least in part, the assassination of JFK or that Oswald was not aware of this person and he was part of a plot to incriminate Oswald. Those two ideas are woven into many of the well-known conspiracy theories, and are supported by many of the published assassination researchers (or crackpots, depending on your point of view). On that tangent, I'm hoping to get through this without a protracted debate on reliable sources. Although I'll be the first to agree that some published sources on the subject are so unreliable that they should never be used for Wikipedia. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
(reset) How common was 'Oswald' as a given or family name at the time for 'youths and men up to about 30' - ie the other persons did meet someone so called at about the right time, but thought nothing about it until after the assassination, and it is thus a case of mistaken identity? 193.132.104.10 (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK, editors. I've added CIA_Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theory#Second_Oswald_in_Mexico_City_Theory to that article. Enjoy. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The main stumbling block
This is not a forum for debate about who shot JFK. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:09, 16 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
... is that no-one actually saw Oswald fire the shots so he is as elusive as a Higgs boson detected by its break-down particles alone. He #was# in the building, did have the shooting skills, the sniper's vantage was set up, the gun was seen, Oswald did leave the building, and kill the policeman - but 'the crucial few minutes' were not observed. Was the rifle checked for fingerprints - I do not recall seeing this being mentioned. 193.132.104.10 (talk) 18:13, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
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Basis and scope of HSCA findings reliance on dictabelt evidence
In previous discussions it was established that the HSCA did in fact quote several factors in addition to the dictabelt evidence upon which their conclusions were based. It would therefore be strictly WP:OR on our part to contradict their findings by asserting that their conclusions were instead wholly based on the acoustical evidence. I have no issue with mentioning the opinions of the dissenting members to that effect, but in doing so it should be made clear that the final report does not itself draw that conclusion. Earl of Arundel (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- it was never "established". You provided four factors, all of which were debunked in the previous discussion itself. I have one question for you, kindly answer honestly: Have you studied the Reports, and other material regarding assassination, or are these articles "just some wikipedia articles" for you? And by study, i dont mean skimming on internet and reading on wikipedia in recent past. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:27, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- An article should only reflect wording that is supported by reliable sources, and here that source is presumably the dissenting members of the committee (as our own opinions and interpretations don't count as reliable sources). So it's okay to claim that the report was essentially based on the dictabelt evidence as long as it is made clear what parties drew that conclusion, because the HSCA report itself does not state such a thing. Unless of course you can provide evidence that they did in fact conclude otherwise (and yes, I have indeed read the report myself, which is precisely why I am so confident that you will not find anything to that effect). Earl of Arundel (talk) 15:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
The point B states:
Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
It means, other scientific evidence does not oppose there was more than one gunman. But these (other) evidences don't support the multiple gunmen either.
The last statement in point B states Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations. Meaning, other evidence than acoustics (dictabelt) actually oppose conspiracy allegations.
The conclusion of all that is:
- Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
- Other evidences don't support the multiple gunmen.
- So, the conclusion "high probability of conspiracy" was completely based on dictablelt evidence. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:34, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Right, and what you're using there is known as logical inference (that is, "negates some" and "negates all" are two very different things, and so requires a "jump" in logic to reach the conclusion that they are in fact the same thing in this case). Unfortunately, Wikipedia has a policy which states that "articles must not contain original research.[...] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources". Now, you can of course use the statements of dissenting members, but it would be misleading to attribute that to the committee's official findings. Which is exactly why the sentence you attempted to remove was there in the first place, just to be clear about the source. Perhaps some other approach could be used. We could, for example, remove this part:
- The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen. Later, several other prominent experts refuted the committee's assessment of the recordings in a series of rigorous tests. In addition, the recordings were found to have originated from a DPD officer's microphone other than what had originally been thought, effectively discrediting the acoustical "evidence".
- ...but now, you see, we've actually downplayed the impact of the acoustical evidence by omission! So what is the problem with proper attribution? Isn't that what we're aiming for here? If we're really concerned with WP:UNDUE then why not just expand on that more (rather than less)? Earl of Arundel (talk) 20:15, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Earl here. The language Earl quotes above suffices, and to draw a conclusion based on inferences found within the report is, by definition, original research. I say this even though I agree with kiran's interpretation. This has been discussed, these points have already been raised, and a consensus was reached. It is not our place to do a forensic examination of the report and draw inferences; it is only to reproduce what is plainly stated in the report and/or citing secondary sources which themselves offer interpretations of how the committee arrived at their conclusion. Canada Jack (talk) 20:27, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
This discussion is about which sentence to use in the article #1 or #2?
- The HSCA's ruling was based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen.
- The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen.
Kindly keep the answer plain, and simple.
- I vote for #1 —usernamekiran (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I again vote for #1 —usernamekiran (talk) 18:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed and a consensus was reached. Canada Jack (talk) 22:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Canada Jack and Earl of Arundel: I still think the article should use other words than "according to dissenting members of the committee". Anything else than these words. At least, a different word than "dissenting". —usernamekiran (talk) 22:37, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- 'Kiran, earlier in this discussion Jack provided a good example of how to get things done around here. It doesn't work to say, "We should change this sentence." If you think we should change the text, propose a specific new text here on talk -- put it in bold or quotes so know exactly what we're getting. Then see if the editors like the new text better than the current. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the advice Joe. :) —usernamekiran (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- 'Kiran, earlier in this discussion Jack provided a good example of how to get things done around here. It doesn't work to say, "We should change this sentence." If you think we should change the text, propose a specific new text here on talk -- put it in bold or quotes so know exactly what we're getting. Then see if the editors like the new text better than the current. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Canada Jack and Earl of Arundel: I still think the article should use other words than "according to dissenting members of the committee". Anything else than these words. At least, a different word than "dissenting". —usernamekiran (talk) 22:37, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed and a consensus was reached. Canada Jack (talk) 22:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I again vote for #1 —usernamekiran (talk) 18:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Voting requested for correction in lede
Hi,
I believe the statement from the second paragraph, "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen.", should be deleted from the article.
Before voting, kindly read the entire reasoning provided below.
This is the version as of March 2, 2017. Till then all was jolly. But then user:Earl of Arundel made an incorrect edit, and user:Canada Jack corrected it. Here is the difference.
This edit by Canada Jack led to these discussions: Talk:John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Current_status_versus_possible_interpretations_of_the_HSCA_report
And most importantly this one: where a user issued an edit war warning, just after one good faith edit, and further discussion.
At the end of these discussions, Earl of Arundel managed to convince everybody to settle for: "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen."
He convinced the editors using a false conclusion, and I am quoting his words "The committee's finding that President Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy was premised on four factors".
His claims were proven wrong in the same discussion where he presented the claim. Talk:John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Clarifying_what_the_HSCA_in_fact_concluded_on_conspiracy
After a few days, when I tried to correct the article, he warned me as he had warned User:Canada Jack. In that warning, I replied to him to discuss it on the talkpage of the article, and he immediately reported me to admins for edit warning.
When it resulted as "No violation", only then he initiated the discussion on talkpage. When I proved there that the conclusion of HSCA was based on dictabelt evidence, even then he did not agree to change the wording in article, and just kept on coming with new excuses.
I believe the statement in discussion should be deleted from the article.
"The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen."
Delete or Keep?
—usernamekiran[talk] 20:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment / Question: Don't you need to remove three sentences regarding the recordings:
- "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen. Later, several other prominent experts refuted the committee's assessment of the recordings in a series of rigorous tests. In addition, the recordings were found to have originated from a DPD officer's microphone other than what had originally been thought, effectively discrediting the acoustical "evidence".
- Otherwise, you'd have two sentences about recordings with no point of reference:
- "In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person responsible for assassinating Kennedy. In 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, although it declined to specifically identify any additional parties in its findings.[3][4] Later, several other prominent experts refuted the committee's assessment of the recordings in a series of rigorous tests. In addition, the recordings were found to have originated from a DPD officer's microphone other than what had originally been thought, effectively discrediting the acoustical "evidence".–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
- Otherwise, you'd have two sentences about recordings with no point of reference:
@CaroleHenson: The set of sentences can be reverted manually to the undisputed verison before all the mess began:
- In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person responsible for assassinating Kennedy. In 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that a second gunman other than Oswald probably fired an extra bullet at Kennedy. The HSCA did not identify that second shot, nor did they identify any other person or organization as having been involved.[2][3] The acoustic evidence on which the HSCA based its second gunman conclusion has since been discredited.[4][5][6][7][8][9]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernamekiran (talk • contribs) –CaroleHenson (talk) 20:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Revert to undisputed version is my vote.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- I vote Keep as is or Don't care, as long as wording does not employ original research/synthesis.
- The HSCA findings were not entirely based on the dictabelt evidence (see previous discussion, above). Therefore, I would support any sort of wording along these lines:
- "In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person responsible for assassinating Kennedy. In 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, although it declined to specifically identify any additional parties in its findings. The HSCA reasoned that a second gunman other than Oswald probably fired an extra bullet at Kennedy, but the acoustic evidence on which the HSCA partially based its conclusions has since been discredited by several experts."
- Or perhaps:
- "In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person responsible for assassinating Kennedy. In 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, although it declined to specifically identify any additional parties in its findings. The HSCA reasoned that a second gunman other than Oswald probably fired an extra bullet at Kennedy, but the acoustic evidence on which (according to dissenting members of the committee) the HSCA based its conclusions has since been discredited by several experts."
Earl of Arundel (talk) 22:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with "Earl #1" above this comment. Let's use that.
- The "March 2" version is misleading, because it says, The acoustic evidence on which the HSCA based its second gunman conclusion has since been discredited. The conclusion was not based on the acoustic evidence, it was based on the acoustic evidence AND "an analysis of the testimony of Dealey Plaza witnesses". That's how we got to this "dissenting members" text as a compromise. Joegoodfriend (talk) 22:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Earl of Arundel: Earl, first of all, you should read the HSCA report before commenting here. The HSCA findings were not entirely based on the dictabelt evidence. But the finding that there were multiple gunmen, was entirely based on the dictabelt. —usernamekiran[talk] 16:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- The Report says[5] "Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations." So I'll take back what I said about "March 2" being misleading. That doesn't mean it's the best wording. Joegoodfriend (talk) 21:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Joegoodfriend: yes Joe, thats what I was trying to say when in previous discussion I uploaded the photos of the report itself. But my suggestions were declined stating it refelcted "original research". The most important point here is, current wording is not the best one either, we need to come up with new, accurate wording. —usernamekiran[talk] 21:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is a simple solution to the entire problem:
Provide a reliable source which supports the statement "The HSCA's ruling was, according to dissenting members of the committee, based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen." and lets keep the starement in the article.
If no source can be found, we simply convert the statement to "The HSCA's ruling was based on analysis of the dictabelt recordings obtained from Dallas police sources which implied the possibility of additional gunmen." —usernamekiran[talk] 00:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- You need not look any further than the HSCA report itself: "Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President". Clearly this means that the acoustical evidence was just one of several factors under consideration, does it not? Earl of Arundel (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- This is why the "according to..." text is needed, as there are diametrically opposed views to what the HSCA actually says. Case in point is the above quote from Earl - I read that same text "Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President" as saying that the scientific evidence does not eliminate the possibility of a second gunman, NOT as evidence for a second gunman, something quite different. IOW, this is not "evidence" for a conspiracy, it is stating that, scientifically, the presence of a second gunman can't be discounted. Surely, the inability to prove a negative - proving there was no gunman - is not evidence of anything.
- And, knowing this would be shot down as it is straying from the goal here of improving the page, it would be rather easy to establish via the text of the report that the ONLY evidence cited within which clearly establishes a conspiracy is... the dictabelt evidence. The "factors" section is an obvious attempt by the majority of the committee to gloss over this fact, to make the case for "conspiracy" more compelling, but a look at the draft and the final reports indicate that the only difference is... the dictabelt evidence. The dissent explicitly says this, and their critques of course were borne out when that evidence was re-examined.
- But I also concede that editors in good faith can read this differently, that it's OR to build a case on this page based on my interpretation, hence the language which states "according to the dissenting members of the committee," etc. is needed. Canada Jack (talk) 16:05, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I see your point. Maybe the wording could be changed to 'essentially' or some such? I think I'll give it a go and see how it takes with everyone... Earl of Arundel (talk) 03:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I am very sorry to revert the edit by Earl of Arundel.[according to whom?]
But the content he edited is currently under discussion. And the new wording should have been discussed here before he added it the article directly. —usernamekiran[talk] 04:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Ideas to trim the article
Time and time again, I've seen the complaint from newer editors that some important factoid about the assassination of JFK has been suppressed when another editor removes it due to poor sourcing, redundancy, etc. The irony is that the sheer volume of minutiae in this article - particularly those sections in which everyone and his mother has some interpretation of the evidence or belief about some alleged conspirator - only serves to bury any possible coherent presentation of the major theories. Does anyone other than those convinced either way bother to read this tome? God knows I've tried over the years to implement my own ideas to fix this (which I'm willing to share), but I'm wondering if anyone else feels some sort of overhaul is in order or is willing to share their ideas. - Location (talk) 06:58, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps a separate wiki/discussion group with the same rules 'somewhere' to which all interested parties can decamp - and report here (or other relevant pages) when the matters are settled to everybody's satisfaction. 193.132.104.10 (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to take a stab at this. That means reading the whole article. I may not survive that. Joegoodfriend (talk) 16:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Good luck! Talk to you next year! -Location (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- OK, here's one. A while back, all the material on murder of J. D. Tippit was moved from that article to this article. Do the editors agree with that?
- An entire paragraph is devoted to questions re Helen Markham's credibility. This could be cut to one sentence. I mention this because it typifies a problem with the article - we don't need to mention every conceivable data point to summarize the questions that have been raised re the evidence and testimony. Joegoodfriend (talk) 17:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- For a few different reasons, I think there are certain articles (like Assassination of John F. Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald, J.D. Tippit, and Jack Ruby to name a few) that should only briefly mention the non-official viewpoints. The conspiracy angle deserves a few sentences in J.D. Tippit, but the more detailed ideas belong here or in the articles of the various authors.
- I do agree that the section discussing Markham exemplifies sections that could be trimmed. I think a lot of the bloat in this article occurs when someone adds material of a relatively minor nature that supports a conspiracy perspective, then others (myself included) feel the need to insert material to refute it. A lot of this isn't covered in what Wikipedia traditionally knows as "reliable secondary sources", so material of an "unreliable" conspiracy source is met with primary source information (e.g. the Warren Report, HSCA, AARB, some primary source FBI report, etc.). And sometimes someone inserts an FBI or CIA report to support a conspiracy angle then someone else adds other primary source information - or information from McAdams or Bugliosi - to refute it. Where does it end? -Location (talk) 03:19, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- Good luck! Talk to you next year! -Location (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)