→Rollbacks and sinebot: typo |
|||
Line 336: | Line 336: | ||
For those with IP addresses ''outside the U.S.'', we would want to display this one: |
For those with IP addresses ''outside the U.S.'', we would want to display this one: |
||
{{fmbox |
{{fmbox |
||
| image = [[File:Interpol logo.png|center|80px]] |
| image = [[:File:Interpol logo.png|center|80px]]<!--Non free file removed by DASHBot--> |
||
| text = <div style="font-size:1.4em; font-weight:bold;">Attention</div> |
| text = <div style="font-size:1.4em; font-weight:bold;">Attention</div> |
||
Revision as of 05:00, 13 May 2010
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
Before creating a new section, consider:
- Discussions of technical issues belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical).
- Discussions of policy belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy).
- If you're ready to make a concrete proposal and determine whether it has consensus, go to the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Proposals worked out here can be brought there.
Before commenting, consider:
This new Village pump page
This is the newly proposed "Village pump (development)" page. Its aim is to encourage the preliminary incubation of new ideas in a "non-polling" environment. When you have a new idea, it is not mandatory that you post it here first. However, doing so can be useful if you only have a general conception of what you want to see implemented, and would like the community's assistance in devising the specifics. Once ideas have been developed, they can be presented to the community for consensus discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).
The formation of this page, and the question of its purpose and existence, are the subjects of discussion on the talk page. Direct all comments on those topics there.
- This comment is purposely left unsigned so that it can be edited by multiple parties, and won't be automatically archived.
Move all essays to userspace (e.g. User:Essay/Coatrack) or separate namespace (e.g. Essay:Coatrack)
We have moved all userboxes to userspace, so why not move all essays as well? Their presence in the Wikipedia namespace seems to confuse or encourage people to regard or cite them as if they were policy or guidelines. If they were moved to, say, subpages of a nonexistent user like User:Essay (much as we use User:UBX), the collaborative process of editing those essays could continue without any user seeming to "own" or otherwise have editorial control over the essays. Granted, people cite essays a lot more than they cite userboxes, and it might be more cumbersome to type, say, User:Essay/Coatrack rather than WP:COATRACK. The proposed U: namespace alias for User: would help in that regard, and perhaps other types of shortcuts are possible; we might use a (usurped) User:E rather than User:Essay, so all that would be needed would be U:E/COATRACK. Or, we might just have an essay namespace aliased to E:. Or perhaps it would be easier to just move policies and guidelines to their own namespace (e.g. PG:Notability), and leave the essays where they are. Tisane (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Possibly. Clearly flagging in the shortcut to all and sundry (particularly newbies) whether it's a policy or an essay does have some merit, both in principle and perhaps in practice. It probably would have been a good idea to do this originally... But the problem at this point is a behavioural issue (behaviour embedded now) and I'm not sure this tech fix would make much difference. Well, perhaps in the long long term it might (years). I suppose a bot could update all the old shortcuts to E:whatever, which would reduce the transition pain... But breaking all the old shortcuts (which you'd have to) is going to be very painful for those who've been around a long time. Perhaps the transition could be eased further by allowing the old shortcuts across namespace (to the new E: location) for a while, with a bot updating them to the new shortcut. Rd232 talk 19:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are occasional discussions on the talk page of the essay template about whether the template should be stronger in noting that essays are not policies or guidelines. The general consensus there is that people do not cite essays in discussions because they are confused of the status but because they agree with the content of the essay and find it applicable to the situation. Like that change, this proposed change would seem to reinforce the incorrect idea that if an argument isn't directly based on a policy or guideline then it has no merit. Mr.Z-man 23:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that people are generally citing essays mistakenly thinking they're policy or guideline. It must happen occasionally, but surely only by people picking up shortcuts without actually reading the page. And I don't think the proposal is based on the idea that using essays is wrong; rather that it is valuable to be clear about the lesser status of essays. Essays represent a collection of useful thoughts, and can often valuably encapsulate a point. But for those who don't know every shortcut by heart, it may be misleading. Shifting essays to E: space and bot-updating shortcuts (even if the old ones were still working) would reduce that. Rd232 talk 06:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- If citing essays isn't wrong, then why do we need to go out of our way to make the distinction clear? The more I look at this, the more I see a solution without a real problem. Mr.Z-man 23:20, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- If going to the toilet isn't wrong, why do we need to close the door when doing so? Seriously, isn't it clear from the above that the issue is being (unintentionally) misleading in citing essays, particularly with shortcuts to policies, guidelines and essays equally being WP:whatever? Rd232 talk 21:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, it isn't clear. If people aren't going to take the time to actually look at linked pages, I don't think we should go out of our way to encourage their laziness (especially at the expense of making things difficult for other people). For the most part, whether something is a policy, guideline, or essay, is irrelevant; what matters is the strength of the argument, not the tag on the pages it cites. As for your analogy, defecating in public is wrong. But we already have a door, this proposal is just to make the door bigger and harder to open, or something like that. Mr.Z-man 00:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, let me give a perfect example: I've just seen someone add a header "Related information", referring to "WP:NAVHEAD" in the edit summary. Sounded like a new part of the ever-expanding MoS guideline, or a separate guideline page, or whatever. But I take the time to click on it, to find it's a (short) essay. Now, {{essay}} tag or no, what conclusion do you think the average user comes to here, if they even get this far? It's hard enough for me to judge (looking at history and talk page) how much support this has. How is the average newbie expected to interpret this? Also, to return to the metaphor, {{essay}} is not a door. It's a sign inside the toilet that says "This toilet includes one or more Wikipedia contributors going about their business. In many cases contributors will close the door, but door-closing may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints. Consider these views with discretion." huh? do I close the door or not? Do I ignore them, or join them (if we imagine a communal Roman toilet - look it up), or encourage them, or hand them a newspaper? Clear as mud. Rd232 talk 07:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, it isn't clear. If people aren't going to take the time to actually look at linked pages, I don't think we should go out of our way to encourage their laziness (especially at the expense of making things difficult for other people). For the most part, whether something is a policy, guideline, or essay, is irrelevant; what matters is the strength of the argument, not the tag on the pages it cites. As for your analogy, defecating in public is wrong. But we already have a door, this proposal is just to make the door bigger and harder to open, or something like that. Mr.Z-man 00:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- If going to the toilet isn't wrong, why do we need to close the door when doing so? Seriously, isn't it clear from the above that the issue is being (unintentionally) misleading in citing essays, particularly with shortcuts to policies, guidelines and essays equally being WP:whatever? Rd232 talk 21:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- If citing essays isn't wrong, then why do we need to go out of our way to make the distinction clear? The more I look at this, the more I see a solution without a real problem. Mr.Z-man 23:20, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that people are generally citing essays mistakenly thinking they're policy or guideline. It must happen occasionally, but surely only by people picking up shortcuts without actually reading the page. And I don't think the proposal is based on the idea that using essays is wrong; rather that it is valuable to be clear about the lesser status of essays. Essays represent a collection of useful thoughts, and can often valuably encapsulate a point. But for those who don't know every shortcut by heart, it may be misleading. Shifting essays to E: space and bot-updating shortcuts (even if the old ones were still working) would reduce that. Rd232 talk 06:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Z-man. This is untrue in my opinion: "For the most part, whether something is a policy, guideline, or essay, is irrelevant." If it were irrelevant than we wouldn't need policies or guidelines. Everybody could make up the rules (via essays-I-wrote-today). --Timeshifter (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- The "rules" are just arguments that have wide acceptance. Once people stop supporting a rule, it is no longer a rule. Mr.Z-man 12:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is true. Which is precisely why it's important to be clear about the status of pages. As noted above, it's not clear at all from shortcuts, and the meaning of "it's only an essay" is not at all clear on the page itself. QED: essays should have their own namespace, and maybe their status clarified in other ways (suggestions? start with editing the tag, maybe). Rd232 talk 14:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- If anything, I think we need to make the distinction less clear, there are many people who act like essays have no use whatsoever in an argument regardless of relevance or if the essay is based in policy simply because the essay itself is not policy; if you cite an essay, your argument is invalid. Similarly, there are people who act like policy is holy scripture that represents universal truth on Wikipedia (I've seriously seen people oppose a policy change because it would require changing a policy). Making the distinction more clear would only serve to exacerbate these issues. Mr.Z-man 14:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well I see your point, but obfuscation is not the answer - especially as I think a large part of the reason people so often say "that's just an essay" is because it's not self-evident from the shortcut! If the shortcut was E:whatever instead of WP:whatever, people would be more likely to understand the reference as a shorthand expression of opinion (once they get E=Essay, which is a whole lot easier than learning X million shortcuts), and less as an attempted declaration of a rule. Perhaps we should think about how to make the status of all pages clearer, both absolutely (in what way or to what extent does it represent consensus) and relatively (how interacting with policy). All essays are not equal, for instance; isn't there some way to clearly account for this? A start, perhaps, would be making WP:ESSAY a clear guideline, with the content of Wikipedia:The value of essays a good starting point for that (the current WP:ESSAY is more of a how-to - not very helpful for the issue at hand). Rd232 talk 15:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you make it clear from the shortcut alone that something is an essay or a policy, you're just making it easier for people to dismiss arguments (or accept them as fact) without actually looking at the linked page to see if it really applies to the situation. We want (or we should want) people to actually understand the arguments people make, not to just weight them based on how many essays and/or policies they can link to. Mr.Z-man 18:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that we need to try and get people to use references to policy, guidelines, essay and fact more constructively - not trying to bludgeon people with alphabet soup. But I cannot see how obfuscating the nature of those references helps in that cause - quite the opposite, when it comes to experienced POV-pushers talking to newbies. As noted above, I think part of the reason people dismiss essays is because they initially assume it's a guideline or policy (WP:MUSTBEIMPORTANT), only to discover that it's "just an essay" (meaning what, incidentally? 1 bloke this morning, or long-established line of argument? newbie confused...). The feeling of being somewhat mislead (by the shortcut) harms engagement with the point the essay makes. Bottom line: no matter what other problems exist and will remain, I cannot believe that the obfuscation involved here is a net good thing. Rd232 talk 19:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you make it clear from the shortcut alone that something is an essay or a policy, you're just making it easier for people to dismiss arguments (or accept them as fact) without actually looking at the linked page to see if it really applies to the situation. We want (or we should want) people to actually understand the arguments people make, not to just weight them based on how many essays and/or policies they can link to. Mr.Z-man 18:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well I see your point, but obfuscation is not the answer - especially as I think a large part of the reason people so often say "that's just an essay" is because it's not self-evident from the shortcut! If the shortcut was E:whatever instead of WP:whatever, people would be more likely to understand the reference as a shorthand expression of opinion (once they get E=Essay, which is a whole lot easier than learning X million shortcuts), and less as an attempted declaration of a rule. Perhaps we should think about how to make the status of all pages clearer, both absolutely (in what way or to what extent does it represent consensus) and relatively (how interacting with policy). All essays are not equal, for instance; isn't there some way to clearly account for this? A start, perhaps, would be making WP:ESSAY a clear guideline, with the content of Wikipedia:The value of essays a good starting point for that (the current WP:ESSAY is more of a how-to - not very helpful for the issue at hand). Rd232 talk 15:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- If anything, I think we need to make the distinction less clear, there are many people who act like essays have no use whatsoever in an argument regardless of relevance or if the essay is based in policy simply because the essay itself is not policy; if you cite an essay, your argument is invalid. Similarly, there are people who act like policy is holy scripture that represents universal truth on Wikipedia (I've seriously seen people oppose a policy change because it would require changing a policy). Making the distinction more clear would only serve to exacerbate these issues. Mr.Z-man 14:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is true. Which is precisely why it's important to be clear about the status of pages. As noted above, it's not clear at all from shortcuts, and the meaning of "it's only an essay" is not at all clear on the page itself. QED: essays should have their own namespace, and maybe their status clarified in other ways (suggestions? start with editing the tag, maybe). Rd232 talk 14:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- The "rules" are just arguments that have wide acceptance. Once people stop supporting a rule, it is no longer a rule. Mr.Z-man 12:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Z-man. This is untrue in my opinion: "For the most part, whether something is a policy, guideline, or essay, is irrelevant." If it were irrelevant than we wouldn't need policies or guidelines. Everybody could make up the rules (via essays-I-wrote-today). --Timeshifter (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Again, how will making the distinction clearer help there? Why do you think people assume that everything that begins with "WP" is a policy or guideline (only a fraction really is)? I think people feeling that "essays" have no weight because they are not policy makes more sense than people just being annoyed that they were "deceived" by the link. Your argument does not address the fact that there are people who know full well that something is an essay (experienced contributors) and still dismiss it simply because it isn't policy. Experienced POV pushers are always going to be able to push newbies around and intimidate them; they don't need to misrepresent essays as policy when they can just misrepresent policy. Mr.Z-man 01:20, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think I've made my point quite clearly enough on how making the distinction clearer will help. Essays should be properly understood as encapsulated opinion; by referring to Essay X, I'm saying X. But by having it in WP space, it seems (in practice) to be declaring it a certain authority (like policy/guideline), and people complain and reject that (and end up ignoring the actual point X). I do think being clearer about this will make essays more useful, because references to them will be more clearly understood as shorthand opinion. Anyway, it seems I cannot persuade you of this, and you have not offered anything constructive on this subject, where we seem to agree there are issues - how about it? This is supposed to be a creative forum. To answer your "why" question, I think people make this assumption based on my experience of having been around WP a long time. Rd232 talk 10:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've not offered anything constructive? What? What have all my replies been then? Vandalism? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that "creative forum" meant "everybody has to agree." I guess I just haven't been around WP long enough. Mr.Z-man 14:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Don't get touchy, I mean you haven't offered any new ideas. That's what "creative forum" means - not merely saying "no... because" but "oh, but how about..." Rd232 talk 17:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Why? Why does everything have to be a new idea? Sometimes we don't actually need change. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this page, I thought it was for extended discussion of proposals before it goes to the community for a wider discussion/vote for actual implementation. You seem to be suggesting that this is only for people for people who agree with the proposal to build it. I really cannot think of a way to make this proposal acceptable to me that wouldn't have the effect of changing the entire spirit of it. Why does that mean that my input should be considered not only unwelcome, but actually "unconstructive" (since my comments are clearly not neutral, that would imply that they are destructive)? If this page only exists for supporting all the proposals, then I will no longer continue commenting here (since I'm apparently not welcome), if you do actually welcome criticism, then perhaps you may wish to amend your earlier comment (and it did come off rather rude/condescending). Mr.Z-man 23:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Calm down guys. Mr.Z-man you always give me hard time to prove my case when I suggest a new idea, and that is why I appreciate your input very much. This is similar to the inclusionists/deletionists debate. I always think, if DGG (one of the most respected editors) thought an article should be deleted, then it almost always should, and if Mr.Z-man thought a new idea is a good idea, then it almost is. As you said sometimes we don't actually need change. Sole Soul (talk) 00:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well I'm sorry if I upset you, that was not my intention. To try and be even clearer than I thought I was already being (textual communication, eh): obviously all kinds of comments are welcome; but as long as there is agreement on there being a problem (essays are cited and used in misleading ways), then critiquing a specific idea or solution ought at some point to segue into trying to come up with alternatives (either variations, or something completely different). (Alternatives needn't even be particularly realistic, in this VPD environment - as long as it's attempting to be relevant and helpful some good may come of it, eg in terms of inspiring something which is realistic.) Example: "no matter how much you think a chocolate teapot is a fine idea, I don't (for reasons X,Y,Z). However I get that you're trying to produce chocolatey tea, so why not just make tea in an ordinary teapot, and then stir some chocolate in? Personally I think the result will be disgusting but if you're willing to test it on a limited scale, go nuts." Rd232 talk 16:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- So then it is the second option? People can only comment in support of an idea, even if they disagree with not only the idea itself, but the underlying reasoning? Mr.Z-man 17:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. Also, you must email the proposer a chocolate teapot, by way of compensation for not improving their idea such that it instantly solves all of Wikipedia's problems. .... sigh. I cannot make up my mind whether it's really possible that you don't understand the very simple point made. Let's try one final time: the premise until now has been that the discussants at least vaguely agree on an objective (here, better use of essays), but disagree about the merits of the proposed strategy for achieving it - with the key point that the discussants should then try to contribute to improving the strategy or coming up with alternative strategies. (This does not mean any particular person doing all the work - this is a collaborative environment.) However if that objective is not shared, say so, and explain why. Possibly substitute a better or more important or more urgent objective. Rd232 talk 00:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What? So if I disagree with the basis for the proposal, I have to propose something completely different in the middle of the discussion? Are these rules written down somewhere, or are you just making them up as you go? Mr.Z-man 02:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Since making the same point in ten different ways doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere, I might as well just quote myself: "However if that objective is not shared, say so, and explain why. Possibly substitute a better or more important or more urgent objective." Rd232 talk 13:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What? So if I disagree with the basis for the proposal, I have to propose something completely different in the middle of the discussion? Are these rules written down somewhere, or are you just making them up as you go? Mr.Z-man 02:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. Also, you must email the proposer a chocolate teapot, by way of compensation for not improving their idea such that it instantly solves all of Wikipedia's problems. .... sigh. I cannot make up my mind whether it's really possible that you don't understand the very simple point made. Let's try one final time: the premise until now has been that the discussants at least vaguely agree on an objective (here, better use of essays), but disagree about the merits of the proposed strategy for achieving it - with the key point that the discussants should then try to contribute to improving the strategy or coming up with alternative strategies. (This does not mean any particular person doing all the work - this is a collaborative environment.) However if that objective is not shared, say so, and explain why. Possibly substitute a better or more important or more urgent objective. Rd232 talk 00:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- So then it is the second option? People can only comment in support of an idea, even if they disagree with not only the idea itself, but the underlying reasoning? Mr.Z-man 17:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Why? Why does everything have to be a new idea? Sometimes we don't actually need change. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this page, I thought it was for extended discussion of proposals before it goes to the community for a wider discussion/vote for actual implementation. You seem to be suggesting that this is only for people for people who agree with the proposal to build it. I really cannot think of a way to make this proposal acceptable to me that wouldn't have the effect of changing the entire spirit of it. Why does that mean that my input should be considered not only unwelcome, but actually "unconstructive" (since my comments are clearly not neutral, that would imply that they are destructive)? If this page only exists for supporting all the proposals, then I will no longer continue commenting here (since I'm apparently not welcome), if you do actually welcome criticism, then perhaps you may wish to amend your earlier comment (and it did come off rather rude/condescending). Mr.Z-man 23:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Don't get touchy, I mean you haven't offered any new ideas. That's what "creative forum" means - not merely saying "no... because" but "oh, but how about..." Rd232 talk 17:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've not offered anything constructive? What? What have all my replies been then? Vandalism? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that "creative forum" meant "everybody has to agree." I guess I just haven't been around WP long enough. Mr.Z-man 14:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- If bots could go around and update all the links to essay pages then I would support moving essays to another namespace (but not userspace). Otherwise, all the broken links would be too disruptive. Some people outside wikipedia link to some essays such as Wikipedia:Advertisements. So, I believe there needs to be at least a disambiguation page, or a soft redirect left on the essay pages. The essay pages are in Wikipedia space (WP:). So, cross-namespace redirects are less problematic. At least soft ones. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the essay template is doing the job. Being consistent about namespaces is important, so either we designate a namespace for the various types of process pages, like a policy namespace, guideline namespace, essay namespace etc. (which I think is less optimal) or we should keep the status quo. Sole Soul (talk) 05:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- See above. The issue is being (unintentionally) misleading in citing essays, particularly with shortcuts to policies, guidelines and essays equally being WP:whatever. And even then, a template is a weaker signal than namespace of the difference between long-established consensus policy and essay-I-wrote today. Rd232 talk 21:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
It's disingenuous to work on the basis of there only being two or even three 'levels' of regulations on Wikipedia. We work on the basis of consensus: the 'rules' are what people agree on. The more agreed-on a point or procedure is, the more prestigious its title, but there is no lower boundary between things that a couple of people think are sensible (random essay) and things that a lot of people think are sensible, but which aren't quite important enough (or run up against the CREEPists) to become guidelines. Essays like WP:DEADLINE, WP:CRUFT and WP:ATA, are as widely-cited as guidelines in their own right, and rightly so, as they have had as much input and consensus-building as a guideline. WP:COATRACK, WP:SPA and WP:LAWYER are valuable extensions to well-established policies and guidelines (WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP and WP:POINT, resepectively). Conversely, while A warning to concert organizers, | and Wikipedia:Beef up that first revision arguably contain useful advice which editors would do well to think about, there's no question that these areas are too niche or informal to deserve widespread citation. Then there are, of course, the areas which are genuinely disputed or disputable: Assume clue & Assume no clue, WP:SPADE & WP:NOSPADE, You do need to cite that the sky is blue & You don't need to cite that the sky is blue; and various essays in direct contradiction to policies and guidelines such as Embrace weasel words, WP:VINE and Bots are annoying.
It's not constructive to sweep out all essays, because asserting that citing essays in discussions is uniformly bad is misconstruing what such a citation actually means. By citing a policy, guideline or essay, an editor is not saying "X says we must do Y" but "there is an argument that we should do Y, which is explained better than I can in X". The strength of an argument is not a binary quantity, it has degrees, and so do essays.
I think we need to be more aggressive in our management of essays, at both ends of the scale. Essays are a valuable resource, but like so many other things they range hugely in quality. The creation of new projectspace essays should be frowned upon unless one can demonstrate that the topic really is a collaborative effort, not a single point of view. Userfying essays at the 'bottom' of the range improves the reputability of those essays which are genuinely credible. And no userspace essay should have WP: shortcuts. But blanket-banishing all essays to userspace is not at all constructive, unless you genuinely do intend to banish WP:RBI, WP:BEANS and WP:BASH along with them. Happy‑melon 20:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I appreciate some new input, even if you haven't read all the WP:TLDR above... :) - nobody is "asserting that citing essays in discussions is uniformly bad", or anything remotely like it. The issue is being clear about status, particularly in shortcuts. And, yes, it would be helpful to at least limit WP: essays and shortcuts to widely recognised essays, with essays living in userspace by default. If we had a centralised way to approve an essay as good enough for WP:space (i.e. demonstrate enough consensus that it's useful enough), that would help limit the proliferation of essays. But it doesn't address the problem that WP: shortcuts are misleading, wherever they point (and perhaps they shouldn't really be pointing across namespaces at userspace essays...). Hence I think E: space is a good idea (and we can still limit that to "essays with some kind of consensus", for the proliferation issue). Otherwise, maybe we can at least introduce U: as a shortcut to userspace, so that at least essays in userspace don't wear the "WP:" badge in shortcuts. Rd232 talk 21:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I did read it all, actually, although I agree it was almost as verbose as my own comment :D. The proposal, and its reactions, are to move/rename/repatriate "all essays", to tar them all with the same brush. I admit it is only a general sentiment that that brush is a negative one. I agree that we need to be much clearer about what is a consensus-based topic and what is just a solitary opinion. I don't think that treating all essays as 'below the salt' is the right way to go about that, it's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't see a problem with WP:BLOCK, WP:LINK and WP:RBI all having shortcuts in the same space. I do see a problem with shortcuts like WP:COAL, WP:CONLIM, etc, sharing that space. Any shortcut link should be interpreted as an invitation to read whatever is on the end of the link, not as an object in its own right. Any writing which has a reasonable consensus, even if it's not enough for guideline status, is worthy of being read in that fashion. Anything that's just something someone wrote down one day can be just as easily written down in the discussion itself; the point is that the linked-to page describes the concept better than an individual editor could, which for monologues is manifestly not the case. Happy‑melon 22:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Any shortcut link should be interpreted as an invitation to read whatever is on the end of the link, not as an object in its own right." - sure - but I think it would be helpful for the nature of that invitation to be clear. Also, the way discussion often works, people don't always follow every unfamiliar shortcut (especially when it's a seemingly self-explanatory one, or seems clear from the discussion context). I don't think moving all essays to E: space is "tarring them with the same brush" - it's a reality that essay has a lower status than guideline! And some should be moved to userspace, and get a U: shortcut instead. Some - particularly "supplemental essays" - could maybe be kept in WP space. but perhaps the nub of this - and easier and quicker and less controversial to implement - is some central place to discuss essay status etc (unless this exists already?). Could be a WikiProject I suppose. Rd232 talk 23:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ha, guess what: Wikipedia:WikiProject Essays. Rd232 talk 23:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- What's the difference in the "nature of the invitation" between a good essay and a guideline? People making a judgement about the applicability of the principle without actually reading the page is something we want to discourage, not facilitate. It's also a reality that guidelines have lower status than policies; but are we going to clearly differentiate between them as well? It's not necessary, because both are appropriate to cite in discussions; and it's the same with some good essays.
- WikiProject Essays sounds good; I wonder if it's active? Happy‑melon 08:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I did read it all, actually, although I agree it was almost as verbose as my own comment :D. The proposal, and its reactions, are to move/rename/repatriate "all essays", to tar them all with the same brush. I admit it is only a general sentiment that that brush is a negative one. I agree that we need to be much clearer about what is a consensus-based topic and what is just a solitary opinion. I don't think that treating all essays as 'below the salt' is the right way to go about that, it's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't see a problem with WP:BLOCK, WP:LINK and WP:RBI all having shortcuts in the same space. I do see a problem with shortcuts like WP:COAL, WP:CONLIM, etc, sharing that space. Any shortcut link should be interpreted as an invitation to read whatever is on the end of the link, not as an object in its own right. Any writing which has a reasonable consensus, even if it's not enough for guideline status, is worthy of being read in that fashion. Anything that's just something someone wrote down one day can be just as easily written down in the discussion itself; the point is that the linked-to page describes the concept better than an individual editor could, which for monologues is manifestly not the case. Happy‑melon 22:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- "It's also a reality that guidelines have lower status than policies; but are we going to clearly differentiate between them as well?"
- Yes. More clarity is good. People have limited time. Policies must be followed. Guidelines should be followed. WP:IAR can trump them at times, since no rule can possibly cover everything.
- Essays are essays and vary in how much agreement there is concerning them. Some tag teams seem to have pet essays they sprinkle around to intimidate people. Happens frequently. Alphabet/acronym intimidation should not trump common sense spoken in English any newbie can understand on article talk pages. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the key underlying concern, here: newbies getting put off by a sea of jargon (including talk page passers-by who might consider participating in editing/discussion, but find it impenetrable). Some of it is irreducible, but some improvement may be possible. And we must take into account that (a) in real life people frequently don't follow every shortcut (or they may follow it once and not remember); (b) they may not be clear on the status even if they do follow it. Even the people using shortcuts may have forgotten what exactly they're linking to (or even link to them without ever reading - just picking up from others' use). Devil's Advocate: ban shortcuts to essays! At least if the full title had to be given as the wikilink, it would be clearer from the text what was going on. Less dramatically, make the shortcuts clarify the status of the destination. WP: for policy and guideline and maybe consensus "supplemental essays"; E: for more polemical/opinion essays agreed to be useful; U: for userspace essays-I-wrote-today. What harm from this? Rd232 talk 16:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Essays are essays and vary in how much agreement there is concerning them. Some tag teams seem to have pet essays they sprinkle around to intimidate people. Happens frequently. Alphabet/acronym intimidation should not trump common sense spoken in English any newbie can understand on article talk pages. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
A policies and guidelines namespace
There are so many WP: shortcuts of all kinds that I think it would be simpler and clearer to create a policies and guidelines namespace.
There are WikiProjects, labs, and everything else imaginable with WP:SHORTCUTS. Resource pages, you-name-it.
The point is to help people focus on policies and guidelines. Everything else is secondary, and a sea of jargon. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but isn't the obvious name/shortcut for such a namespace Wikipedia/WP:? Rd232 talk 14:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- But it's taken, and used for far more than essays. It would cause less disruption to create a new namespace just for policies and guidelines. People will adjust to it more easily since there is less they have to remember to change. There are far fewer policies and guidelines versus essays, etc.. Wikipedia space (WP:) has shortcuts for so many different types of pages. That whole acronym soup confuses newbies greatly. A namespace just for guidelines and policies would help flag the attention of all editors to what is more important. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- And I'm less concerned about wikiprojects and things like that having WP: shortcuts as well as policy because I think it's generally clear from the context that it's a very different sort of destination than a policy or essay. Also changing the shortcuts for policy and leaving them the same for essays is unfortunately perverse in terms of people needing to relearn shortcuts: the more important ones should stay the same. Also, policies and guidelines for me fit more essentially into "Wikipedia:" space than essays, so I'd rather move the latter out from that point of view as well. Finally, all of Z-man's issues with E: space would seem to apply to this approach as well. Rd232 talk 09:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- It might be best to move everything. Essays to
Essay:
, policies toPolicy:
, and guidelines toGuideline:
. It might be a pain in the neck if something gets promoted/demoted, though. But I don't think that will happen very often. Hmm, another downside is that some people might not remember which are the policies and which are the guidelines. But maybe this will help them remember! Are there any wikis that have tried something along these lines? Tisane (talk) 03:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)- I don't think people will accept this, not least because pages do change status between policy and guideline occasionally: it's far from permanently fixed. Anyway I don't see the advantage in splitting Policies and Guidelines - PG: space is a better idea than that, being simpler. Rd232 talk 08:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- It might be best to move everything. Essays to
- And I'm less concerned about wikiprojects and things like that having WP: shortcuts as well as policy because I think it's generally clear from the context that it's a very different sort of destination than a policy or essay. Also changing the shortcuts for policy and leaving them the same for essays is unfortunately perverse in terms of people needing to relearn shortcuts: the more important ones should stay the same. Also, policies and guidelines for me fit more essentially into "Wikipedia:" space than essays, so I'd rather move the latter out from that point of view as well. Finally, all of Z-man's issues with E: space would seem to apply to this approach as well. Rd232 talk 09:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- But it's taken, and used for far more than essays. It would cause less disruption to create a new namespace just for policies and guidelines. People will adjust to it more easily since there is less they have to remember to change. There are far fewer policies and guidelines versus essays, etc.. Wikipedia space (WP:) has shortcuts for so many different types of pages. That whole acronym soup confuses newbies greatly. A namespace just for guidelines and policies would help flag the attention of all editors to what is more important. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
A policies and guidelines shortcut format
Maybe we could have MediaWiki automatically make the new namespace shortcuts bold red (maybe underlined, too). PG:NPOV. PG: for Policies-guidelines. Or just P: for Policies. P:NPOV. It could be made clear that the policies namespace also includes guidelines. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think any form of autoformatting is going to happen; let's not get sidetracked with that (start a different section if you want to pursue the thought). Rd232 talk 09:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I started a different section. I now think that this may be the easiest solution. Rather than create new namespaces for policies, guidelines, essays, etc., it would be a lot easier if people could keep using the same WP namespace for everything, and use the color of the shortcut to indicate policies and guidelines. WP:NPOV.
- The software would detect policies and guidelines shortcuts and add the color and bold format. Similar to how ISBN and PMID numbers automatically generate a link. See WP:ISBN and WP:PMID. These "magic words" cause the software to automatically format the number into a wikilink. See also Help:Magic words for other similar automagic formatting.
- This would serve another purpose. People oftentimes just write NPOV or WP:NPOV without adding the brackets to make them into wikilinks. Autoformatting would solve that problem. This would greatly help newbies wade through a sea of jargon and acronyms thrown around at times. The linking helps greatly. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, autolinking might be enough of a selling point for this to have a chance. (On the other hand, it may result in sprinkling many more bluelinks than the writers want.) But in terms of clarity, I'm not sure that autoformatting is the answer - how easy will it be for newbies to understand the formatting code? And you have to balance that against a very substantial annoyance factor of stand-out formatting the writer didn't intend and doesn't control. I wonder if autoexpanding and autolinking abbreviations could be the answer, but only under certain conditions: like WP:NPOV which suggests a possible linking intention, but not NPOV (mere reference). There could be an "autoexpand shortcut" instruction, like if I type WPx:NPOV, the bot will autolink and expand to Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. OK, that doesn't really satisfy the objective of the formatting proposal (show what type of thing the destination is), but it's something possibly helpful in this area :) And in combination with namespace sorting, it would help clarify things. Rd232 talk 08:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- This would serve another purpose. People oftentimes just write NPOV or WP:NPOV without adding the brackets to make them into wikilinks. Autoformatting would solve that problem. This would greatly help newbies wade through a sea of jargon and acronyms thrown around at times. The linking helps greatly. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV. This link is clickable. I guess the underlining is overkill, so I removed it. Also, green might be less intrusive than red. :)
- Newbies would not need to learn any formatting for this to work. To see an example of how it would work type ISBN followed by 10 or 13 digits, and a link is automatically created and formatted. See WP:ISBN for more info. Paste the following into an edit window, and preview/save it:
ISBN 1234567890
- It produces ISBN 1234567890 - It is not a valid ISBN number since I just picked the numbers randomly. But it illustrates the auto-formatting. Note that the formatting is not visible in the wikitext after saving, and going back to edit mode. There are no brackets around ISBN or the number. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's done in software (Wikipedia:ISBN), and that massively increases the implementation time for anything. That's why I was thinking of a bot. Also I don't think any kind of formatting for this will be accepted at WP:VPR - but I know colours won't be. I also think that it makes too big a deal of the difference between policies, guidelines, and essays: we want to be clear about what the target is without jumping up and down and distracting and annoying people. It's a delicate balance, but I think formatting is probably not going to fly as signalling. (Of course autolinking introduces its own formatting, but it doesn't distinguish target type.) I think namespaces are the way to go to signal target type. Rd232 talk 09:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- magic links (things which are automatically and unavoidably linked from plain text) are out of favour with the developers and no new examples will be added. A namespace or pseudospace is probably the best bet. "PG" is not an ISO language code, so would be potentially available for this. Happy‑melon 10:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. What's the difference between a namespace and a pseudospace? Rd232 talk 10:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- I found info on this here: Wikipedia:Namespace#Pseudo-namespaces. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. How about a PG namespace? What would be involved in setting this up? --Timeshifter (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. What's the difference between a namespace and a pseudospace? Rd232 talk 10:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- magic links (things which are automatically and unavoidably linked from plain text) are out of favour with the developers and no new examples will be added. A namespace or pseudospace is probably the best bet. "PG" is not an ISO language code, so would be potentially available for this. Happy‑melon 10:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's done in software (Wikipedia:ISBN), and that massively increases the implementation time for anything. That's why I was thinking of a bot. Also I don't think any kind of formatting for this will be accepted at WP:VPR - but I know colours won't be. I also think that it makes too big a deal of the difference between policies, guidelines, and essays: we want to be clear about what the target is without jumping up and down and distracting and annoying people. It's a delicate balance, but I think formatting is probably not going to fly as signalling. (Of course autolinking introduces its own formatting, but it doesn't distinguish target type.) I think namespaces are the way to go to signal target type. Rd232 talk 09:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- It produces ISBN 1234567890 - It is not a valid ISBN number since I just picked the numbers randomly. But it illustrates the auto-formatting. Note that the formatting is not visible in the wikitext after saving, and going back to edit mode. There are no brackets around ISBN or the number. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) I guess the next step is to go to VP-Proposals? What do people think? --Timeshifter (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so. I guess this would be proposing "Policies and guidelines" pseudospace and PG: pseudospace for shortcuts, and moving policies and guidelines there; and/or "Essay" pseudospace and E: pseudospace, and moving essays there. Do you want to draft it here? Rd232 talk 15:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Someone can feel free to draft a proposal. I don't have the time to do more than comment now and then. I suggest aiming low at first. A "Policies and guidelines" namespace, but indicated just by Policies:
- The pseudospace could be the shortcut PG:
- If I understand pseudospaces correctly from what I read at Wikipedia:Namespace#Pseudo-namespaces, then the shortcut is the pseudospace.
- P: is already taken by the Portal: namespace according to Wikipedia:Namespace#Pseudo-namespaces.
- Asking for an Essay: namespace at the same time might be aiming too high, and asking too much of the people at VP-proposals. Also of average editors. It will be hard enough getting editors to start using PG: for policies and guidelines. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- "hard enough" depends on the timescale. On a scale of 1-2 years it doesn't seem so hard. Stop advertising the old shortcuts and have a bot automatically replace existing and new uses of old shortcuts (or references to the full page name, which would still work as a redirect), and gradually and relatively painlessly people will absorb the change. And for new editors, they won't ever have known the old way. Rd232 talk 12:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Promoted to VPR then: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Clarifying_WP:_shortcuts_and_Wikipedia:_page_titles. Rd232 talk 00:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Save and Publish Features
Hi,
I think it would be great to separate out the file save functions from the publication function. Why? Because people need time to construct worthy articles. Sometimes, editors look at a piece before it is really ready for the "reality check," causing worthy articles to be deleted, and, increasing editor workload.
Greater accuracy of editorial decisions would be made if authors could develop pieces over a period of time. Wiki could set a time limit on save without publish.
To say again, separate out saving the file from publishing it. Wiki is a publishing environment. So, sometimes content needs to be developed by the authors before it is ready for "prime time." This would let a team of authors work in tandem without having Wiki editors removing the material before it is ready to be "judged."
Thanks!
kjm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.74.213 (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- See mw:Extension:Drafts, no idea if its ever going to be enabled. There was also a Village Pump discussion (which I cannot find) where people were bashing the idea of a secret place to store information. — Dispenser 00:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- In a somewhat related note, the usability team found that some new users assumed that when they hit the "Save page" button, that the page is saved somewhere, and did not know that their edits went "live". I myself interacted with a new user who had that assumption. I think we should rename the "Save page" button to "Publish"to make it more clear. Sole Soul (talk) 00:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- kjm 24.22.74.213. I think you have some good ideas. New editors barely understand Wikipedia, wikitext, etc.. They may not know of user subpages, sandboxes, etc. as places to develop articles. Maybe add buttons to "save to my userspace" and "publish." --Timeshifter (talk) 02:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I like this line of discussion. It's exactly the sort of thing crusty old Wikipedians would never think of, and it may be helpful to new users. Rd232 talk 07:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- When I think of "publishing" something, I think of actually printing something, like a magazine or a book. While it may technically be the correct word, it sounds (to me) even more jargon-y than "Save", which is at least connected more to computers. Mr.Z-man 01:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Because it is related to computers (i.e. save file), it is more confusing. In the contrary, it is less likely that new users would think "publish" means puplish like in printing in this context. Anyway, "submit" may be another option?! Sole Soul (talk) 04:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- They may not think of actual printing (do you have any evidence to suggest that they won't think that way?), but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't still be confused. "Submit" is just vague. Submit what to where? Mr.Z-man 05:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have evidence (like a usability team survey) that says new users are not likely to think that "publish" would mean actual printing, if that is what you are asking. The question is what most new users are used to at other popular websites. Most of these sites use "submit" for adding comments. When "save" is used in the web, it is usually to save files at web storage sites, or to save settings.Sole Soul (talk) 05:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody thinks a Publish button on a webpage means "print to my local printer"; it's well established as meaning "put live on the web". OED has a sense of "Publish" as "To make generally accessible or available for acceptance or use (a work of art, information, etc.); to present to or before the public; spec. to make public (news, research findings, etc.) through the medium of print or the Internet." WordPress and Blogger and most CMS's use the word "Publish" for their "put live on web now" buttons. Furthermore, it seems to me the original MediaWiki choice of "Save" was probably motivated by a techie perspective of "saving changes to the underlying database". From the user's point of view, publish is the relevant call to action. "Save" is vaguer than "publish", at best - for many it carries a suggestion of something local (save to my hard disk), or perhaps save an online draft of some kind (compare webmail systems). "Save" doesn't clearly say "let the world see this" in the way that "publish" does. Regardless of whether we want to add some kind of a "save draft" button (eg via the Drafts Extension), I think a simple rename of "Save page" to "Save and publish" would be an improvement. Using both words is helpful here for continuity. PS why not think more fundamentally about making these buttons clearer: get some colour in there at least, if not a different icon for each action. Cf [2]. Rd232 talk 09:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Users familiar with other CMS's are probably not the ones who are confused by the "Save" button. Though if we are going to clarify it, I agree that more words is better than fewer here, its not like we're constrained for space. One thing to consider though is the effect that FlaggedRevs will have (assuming we ever get it), where under certain situations, it won't actually save it to the version shown to the public until the edit is reviewed. Mr.Z-man 23:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. FR would probably need the button changing anyway, so that people are clear about the exact effect of clicking the button. So we may as well as get used to the idea of changing the button. What would the post-FR button be, for people whose edits need reviewing? "Submit changes for review"? Rd232 talk 16:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Users familiar with other CMS's are probably not the ones who are confused by the "Save" button. Though if we are going to clarify it, I agree that more words is better than fewer here, its not like we're constrained for space. One thing to consider though is the effect that FlaggedRevs will have (assuming we ever get it), where under certain situations, it won't actually save it to the version shown to the public until the edit is reviewed. Mr.Z-man 23:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody thinks a Publish button on a webpage means "print to my local printer"; it's well established as meaning "put live on the web". OED has a sense of "Publish" as "To make generally accessible or available for acceptance or use (a work of art, information, etc.); to present to or before the public; spec. to make public (news, research findings, etc.) through the medium of print or the Internet." WordPress and Blogger and most CMS's use the word "Publish" for their "put live on web now" buttons. Furthermore, it seems to me the original MediaWiki choice of "Save" was probably motivated by a techie perspective of "saving changes to the underlying database". From the user's point of view, publish is the relevant call to action. "Save" is vaguer than "publish", at best - for many it carries a suggestion of something local (save to my hard disk), or perhaps save an online draft of some kind (compare webmail systems). "Save" doesn't clearly say "let the world see this" in the way that "publish" does. Regardless of whether we want to add some kind of a "save draft" button (eg via the Drafts Extension), I think a simple rename of "Save page" to "Save and publish" would be an improvement. Using both words is helpful here for continuity. PS why not think more fundamentally about making these buttons clearer: get some colour in there at least, if not a different icon for each action. Cf [2]. Rd232 talk 09:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have evidence (like a usability team survey) that says new users are not likely to think that "publish" would mean actual printing, if that is what you are asking. The question is what most new users are used to at other popular websites. Most of these sites use "submit" for adding comments. When "save" is used in the web, it is usually to save files at web storage sites, or to save settings.Sole Soul (talk) 05:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- They may not think of actual printing (do you have any evidence to suggest that they won't think that way?), but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't still be confused. "Submit" is just vague. Submit what to where? Mr.Z-man 05:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Because it is related to computers (i.e. save file), it is more confusing. In the contrary, it is less likely that new users would think "publish" means puplish like in printing in this context. Anyway, "submit" may be another option?! Sole Soul (talk) 04:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Back to the suggestion made above: shall we
- 1. Change "Save page" to "Save and publish"
- 2a. Add a new button "Save draft/test", which saves the page to Special/MyPage:Pagename, i.e. a userspace copy of the user's text. Ideally adds a suitable template to the userspace page as well, to help with the "what now".
- 2b. Add a new button "Save draft", which is only available when the page doesn't exist, and creates a userspace draft as in 2. I mention this in case 2a is considered too confusing or clutter-creating to be available all the time.
I know it's been suggested Flagged Revisions may change things with regard to 1., but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. And you could argue that if anything changing the button from "save and publish" to something relevant to FR will make the transition clearer than from "save page". Rd232 talk 10:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
new page patrol
- Thinking about last month's on hasty new-page patrollers, perhaps an actual delay before publication of new pages wouldn't be such a bad thing. Websites like Craigslist say that they take up to 15 minutes to publish, so it probably wouldn't seem too strange to new editors.
- (I'd still rather that these couple of NPPers followed the directions about not patrolling pages within seconds of their creation.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- One possibility would be to delay the new page feed for some users - for all users wouldn't be a good idea. It would seem an undesirable complication (managing who has a delay and who doesn't), but it's perfectly possible - and given the constant backlog, maybe not as silly an idea as it might seem at first. Just - do we really want another user-right? Is there some other way to do it? Is it worth it? What about splitting New Pages, perhaps by category of user (autoconfirmed/not)? Access to the latter would be more sensitive. Rd232 talk 23:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What is the benefit of delaying? Sole Soul (talk) 23:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Preventing people who tag drafts too soon, thereby putting off new users, from doing so. Rd232 talk 23:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- You mean tag for deletion? Some new pages should be detected ASAP, like attack pages. Most patrollers give clearly non-vandalism pages time before tagging it for deletion. Sole Soul (talk) 23:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Tag for deletion or cleanup. Mostly this is done reasonably (and obviously it's a necessary task and for some pages it does need to be ASAP), but it's done in a WP:BITEy way often enough by enough patrollers that finding ways to avoid this is a perennial issue. A previous response to this was adding the injunction at the top of New Pages to consider patrolling from the back of the new page log. Rd232 talk 01:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Preventing people who tag drafts too soon, thereby putting off new users, from doing so. Rd232 talk 23:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- What is the benefit of delaying? Sole Soul (talk) 23:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Two alternative ideas. One, just revise the MediaWiki message at the top of New Pages to emphasise not WP:BITEing people. This I'll probably have a crack at some time today, drafting something (probably to mention welcoming people and providing {{userspace draft}} to people if appropriate. Two, suggest that for very very new articles patrollers use a variation of {{new unreviewed article}} instead of applying lots of tags (uncategorised, etc) saying what's wrong with it, which can be offputting and bitey if the article's only a few minutes old. The tag might borrow something from the PROD template to show how recently the article was created, and change accordingly (if it's old enough, suggest cleanup tagging). Twinkle could have the template added to make it easy. Rd232 talk 09:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here's a draft then: User:Rd232/newpages-summary. The original is at MediaWiki:Newpages-summary. Rd232 talk 11:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- I object to the "Consider using Friendly" part since I consider that tool to encourage drive-by tagging. The {{userspace draft}} template is for putting on userspace drafts, not for using as a talk page warning. I like that the options to show a "delayed" new pages are inside a box for better visibility by newer patrollers though. PleaseStand (talk) 11:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- 1. I think you're confusing WP:Friendly (easy welcoming users, albeit with templates) with WP:Twinkle (easy article tagging, CSD, etc). In any case, in an NPP context I don't think driveby tagging is a big issue; the main problem with driveby tagging is users adding NPOV tags and the like without (sufficient) explanation, which happens less in an NPP context where it's more fairly clear/selfexplanatory issues like uncategorised, cleanup, etc. 2. I fixed the template reference to {{uw-draftfirst}}. Rd232 talk 10:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I object to the "Consider using Friendly" part since I consider that tool to encourage drive-by tagging. The {{userspace draft}} template is for putting on userspace drafts, not for using as a talk page warning. I like that the options to show a "delayed" new pages are inside a box for better visibility by newer patrollers though. PleaseStand (talk) 11:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here's a draft then: User:Rd232/newpages-summary. The original is at MediaWiki:Newpages-summary. Rd232 talk 11:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- One possibility would be to delay the new page feed for some users - for all users wouldn't be a good idea. It would seem an undesirable complication (managing who has a delay and who doesn't), but it's perfectly possible - and given the constant backlog, maybe not as silly an idea as it might seem at first. Just - do we really want another user-right? Is there some other way to do it? Is it worth it? What about splitting New Pages, perhaps by category of user (autoconfirmed/not)? Access to the latter would be more sensitive. Rd232 talk 23:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Twinkle can be used to add deletion tags. Friendly can be used to add welcome templates and maintenance tags. The part of Friendly I object to is it allows adding tags to old articles just as easily as to new articles. And how hard is it to type
{{subst:welcome}} ~~~~
? I do not think we should endorse such a tool on Special:NewPages. PleaseStand (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)- My bad - I thought the "tag" tab was from Twinkle, but it is from Friendly (I've had both so long I've forgotten). Since the reference in the proposed draft is to using the welcome functionality of Friendly, and NPPers will be using this or similar tools anyway to tag pages, there doesn't seem any point in suppressing the suggestion (endorsement? no) to welcome people with it. As to "how hard is it" - I don't know how to quantify that, but it's certainly harder and slower than using Friendly, which also provides a range of options which may sometimes be more appropriate (notably anon welcome templates, specific problem user welcome templates). In sum, if we want to seriously encourage welcoming people, we need to mention Friendly. Rd232 talk 08:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Twinkle can be used to add deletion tags. Friendly can be used to add welcome templates and maintenance tags. The part of Friendly I object to is it allows adding tags to old articles just as easily as to new articles. And how hard is it to type
It should work like Gmail. Drafts should be autosaved at least once a minute, and you publish when you're ready. And it should inform you immediately when someone makes an edit that conflicts with the one you're working on. Tisane (talk) 08:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a big increase in server load... but it would be nice. Rd232 talk 10:08, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- About the hasty NPPers: Part of the problem is that we have a couple of very active NPPers who (1) know that the community has — directly, explicitly, and personally — requested that they not patrol pages created in the last 15 minutes and (2) insist on going against this advice.
- Given this situation, I doubt that the proposed changes will have the least bit of effect on the worst offenders.
- IMO there is no valid reason for ignoring attack pages for weeks (and that are now indexed on all the search engines) simply on the grounds that you didn't happen to be logged in when they were created. Pages that were created a few minutes ago are essentially invisible to the outside world: we can afford to let them sit long enough for the editor to get the second edit in. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- If the problem is as specific as you suggest, maybe we can impose a community sanction requiring them not to do this? Perhaps do an WP:RFC/U first? I'm not quite sure about your "IMO there is no valid reason...." sentence - what's your thinking here about "happen to be logged in"? I'm not clear about your point. On the last sentence though: pages often appear on Google within minutes. This is a longstanding peeve of mine, and I've suggested before that the software NOINDEX all pages for the first 24 hours after creation, except where explicitly overridden on a page where it matters (eg new current events articles). Could try proposing that again... Rd232 talk 10:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- These couple of editors seem to think that patrolling pages within seconds of their creation is a virtuous act (even though the backlog of weeks-old unpatrolled pages is significant, and pages in the backlog are equally worth their attention). Consequently, whether a page gets patrolled is essentially determined by timestamp: If the page happened to get created during the minutes (or hours) that an NPPer chose to patrol a bunch of pages, then it gets patrolled. If it was created while most of the active NPPers are in bed/at work/at school, then it gets ignored. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I see. Do you mind saying who you're thinking of? And do you think NOINDEXing new pages would be a good idea? Rd232 talk 08:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I provided a link in my first comment above; I suggest reading it so that you can have not merely (two) names, but the associated context.
- NOINDEXing new pages is an interesting idea. Should it be a general application, do you think, or perhaps something that is added to templates like {{New unreviewed article}}? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I imagine it being done by default in software (eg for pages younger than 24 hours), with a magicword override (i.e. INDEX) which can be kept in a template for ease of use. Alternatively it could even be done without a software change, if we change the MediaWiki configuration to allow NOINDEX in mainspace, and then use templates, bots etc to NOINDEX everything new, and remove NOINDEXing after 24 hours. The former would be cleaner. I think we could propose this at VPR actually, it would have a number of benefits, and making NPP a slightly less urgent/high-pressure task would be one of them. Rd232 talk 22:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- I see. Do you mind saying who you're thinking of? And do you think NOINDEXing new pages would be a good idea? Rd232 talk 08:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- These couple of editors seem to think that patrolling pages within seconds of their creation is a virtuous act (even though the backlog of weeks-old unpatrolled pages is significant, and pages in the backlog are equally worth their attention). Consequently, whether a page gets patrolled is essentially determined by timestamp: If the page happened to get created during the minutes (or hours) that an NPPer chose to patrol a bunch of pages, then it gets patrolled. If it was created while most of the active NPPers are in bed/at work/at school, then it gets ignored. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Users who don't know what Wikipedia is are being misled
originally posted at WP:ANI. Equazcion (talk) 09:55, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
I still remember when I first found Wikipedia. I googled for a term and arrived at the entry for that term at Wikipedia.
What I found was grossly misleading and inaccurate content in the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I though what the hell? An encyclopedia should contain verified and correct information.
It was much later when I browsed to the main page of Wikipedia to look into what this encyclopedia really is. There I saw the explanation: It is the encyclopedia THAT ANYONE CAN EDIT(!). Aha!
That sentence immediately worked as an eye opener and a disclaimer that I should treat the content as unreliable.
Now, my question is: Is it intentional that the phrase "that anyone can edit" is only on the main page?
New users discovering an article on Wikipedia will not go to the main page, but directly from Google to the article. They will be misled into believing that this is a real encyclopedia that can be edited only by experts who know what they are talking about.
The phrase "that anyone can edit" needs to be visible on EVERY article page on the Wikipedia website. Either within the logo or within the text. 94.113.158.92 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC).
- You could have edited the incorrect information...which article was it?TeapotgeorgeTalk 09:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, I couldn't because I didn't know THAT ANYONE CAN EDIT this wikipedia! Read my post again. Also, it doesn't matter which article it was. It is a general principle that is and always will be true.94.113.158.92 (talk) 09:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Look at the bottom of every page. It says "Disclaimers." Read it. (Peculiarly enough, every encyclopedia has disclaimers, but that's just a hint) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I expected exactly this kind of answer. But reliable research has shown that NOBODY reads the fine print. However, people DO read the first line within the text. And I ask once again: Is it deliberate that the main page starts with the crucially important phrase "that anyone can edit" and the actual article pages do not? Is it honest to not tell new people about this crucial fact? And once again, new users WON'T come to the main page, let alone read any fine print! 94.113.158.92 (talk) 09:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Look, if you get medication, don't read the labels and die, that's tough luck. Now go get a copy of Britannica or whatever other work you admire and read their disclaimers. I'll mark this as resolved. No administrator-attention is warranted here (to find out why, read WP:ADMIN which tells you what admins do and don't do. Thanks.) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe this could be appropriate at the WP:SIGNPOST, although probably not if you just want to complain without some fix in mind. This is a place for issues that require administrator intervention. I don't see any of that in your complaints. Shadowjams (talk) 09:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Look, if you get medication, don't read the labels and die, that's tough luck. Now go get a copy of Britannica or whatever other work you admire and read their disclaimers. I'll mark this as resolved. No administrator-attention is warranted here (to find out why, read WP:ADMIN which tells you what admins do and don't do. Thanks.) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I expected exactly this kind of answer. But reliable research has shown that NOBODY reads the fine print. However, people DO read the first line within the text. And I ask once again: Is it deliberate that the main page starts with the crucially important phrase "that anyone can edit" and the actual article pages do not? Is it honest to not tell new people about this crucial fact? And once again, new users WON'T come to the main page, let alone read any fine print! 94.113.158.92 (talk) 09:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Look at the bottom of every page. It says "Disclaimers." Read it. (Peculiarly enough, every encyclopedia has disclaimers, but that's just a hint) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, I couldn't because I didn't know THAT ANYONE CAN EDIT this wikipedia! Read my post again. Also, it doesn't matter which article it was. It is a general principle that is and always will be true.94.113.158.92 (talk) 09:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Stop with the corporate ass-covering "it's not our fault if you didn't read the fine print" talk, please. Mr. Anon has a point, despite his poor choice of venue. Maybe we should put the phrase someplace where every article page will show it. I'm refactoring this to VP, will notify the author. Equazcion (talk) 09:50, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- Gee, thanks, Corporate ass covering. Right. Very well, I suggest every page should have Don't trust us on top. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, that's a rather strong phrase. I, personally, consider it extremely foolish for *any* person to automatically trust anything they read online. Their own damn fault if they do. No "corporate ass-covering" going on, just plain common sense and an expectation of personal responsibility. It isn't our job to hold everyone's hand. And I would suggest that the five million page view average the main page gets daily indicates that lots and lots of readers, quite a number of them new users, actually do get to see the phrase "that anyone can edit". — Huntster (t @ c) 10:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think "hand holding" is a bit of a stretch for this situation. It would be more apt if the proposed change would constitute some sort of sacrifice on our part. In this case it's suggested that we can help clarify the truth about Wikipedia by adding four words to the sidebar or logo. As for the stats argument (propaganda, ahem), compare the main page views with the total views of article pages from search engines, whose viewers never get to the main page; If it were possible to generate that stat, I think that you'd see it exponentially larger than the main page views. Equazcion (talk) 10:14, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, that's a rather strong phrase. I, personally, consider it extremely foolish for *any* person to automatically trust anything they read online. Their own damn fault if they do. No "corporate ass-covering" going on, just plain common sense and an expectation of personal responsibility. It isn't our job to hold everyone's hand. And I would suggest that the five million page view average the main page gets daily indicates that lots and lots of readers, quite a number of them new users, actually do get to see the phrase "that anyone can edit". — Huntster (t @ c) 10:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Gee, thanks, Corporate ass covering. Right. Very well, I suggest every page should have Don't trust us on top. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Stop with the corporate ass-covering "it's not our fault if you didn't read the fine print" talk, please. Mr. Anon has a point, despite his poor choice of venue. Maybe we should put the phrase someplace where every article page will show it. I'm refactoring this to VP, will notify the author. Equazcion (talk) 09:50, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- Back to the point, I myself wasn't aware anyone could edit Wikipedia for a while after first encountering it. My family and friends still don't get it even after I told them. The concept that I actually edit the encyclopedia, and that they could too, seems new to them no matter how many times I mention it. Having this phrase on ever page might serve to get the point across, and wouldn't cost very much in the way of space. Equazcion (talk) 10:00, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- It might. but that was not the point of the complaint; obviously, the anon's asking for a disclaimer that says "this shit isn't worth anything, don't believe it" -- that's at least how it came across. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is a good point and there is no reason that I can see that the phrase shouldn't be visible on all articles. People don't read disclaimers as a rule, and unfortunately misinformation does spread through Wikipedia - we all know this. If that can be counteracted by adding a simple statement to pages, that's surely a Good Thing(TM). Add "that anyone can edit" to "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", which is what it says at the top of each article now - that will serve the double purpose of making more people aware that they could fix misinformation, and making them view the articles with a more critical eye. --bonadea contributions talk 10:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (e/c)The page logo, top left, says "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", but the main page says "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." I have some sympathy with the OP's original point, and it wouldn't seem too difficult, the next time the logo is revised, to clarify the strapline. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yes, this is a reasonable change, though I have no faith that it'll keep folks like the OP from complaining that they weren't given adequate warning as to the potential unreliability of the site. Remember, people like to complain for the sake of complaining (this reply is a testament to that). — Huntster (t @ c) 10:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Before you try, read through MediaWiki talk:Tagline. There's a long thread. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Seems to have last been seriously discussed in 2006, and then it was just a list of support signatures. Could be time to revive it. And I'd suggest keeping the discussion here, where there are more eyes, rather than at Mediawiki space. Equazcion (talk) 10:17, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- Correction: Keep the discussion at Village pump, where there are more eyes; not on this page specifically. This page is new and has less than 30 watchers so far. Once we've hammered out details (whatever details there are) this should be proposed at WP:Village pump (proposals). Equazcion (talk) 10:26, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Before you try, read through MediaWiki talk:Tagline. There's a long thread. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 10:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yes, this is a reasonable change, though I have no faith that it'll keep folks like the OP from complaining that they weren't given adequate warning as to the potential unreliability of the site. Remember, people like to complain for the sake of complaining (this reply is a testament to that). — Huntster (t @ c) 10:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Funnily enough, I've always had the exact opposite problem with my friends. They're all "I added 'your mom' to the end of every line in the article about whatever, so it's not reliable- I don't even use Wikipedia, let alone edit [well, obviously apart from vandalism :P]". And my dad-- he made a false article, and it stuck for like 32 hours, so he's stoked. (And he's an open-source, copyleft junkie- it's where I get it from.) But I think he probably doesn't trust it simply because I can edit it.
But I agree with the IP. It needs to be more clear to people that they can edit-- not only that, the process of contributing should be easier. At Articles for Creation, we've been having a little discussion about IPs and creating pages, seen here. In essence, why does the search tell them they can create a page, then make it so hard to find the right place? It's non-conducive to new users, methinks. </rant> And yes, this should probably be at the main Village pump. but oh well...SS✞(Kay) 10:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here's a rough mockup of what the logo might look like with this addendum . Equazcion (talk) 11:35, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
Comment. I don't have a strong opinion either way on the issue but, if Huggle-main-stats are reliable, there are in excess of 3 edits per second during high peaks. I've never seen the rate fall below one edit per second. I think the word is out, personally. Tiderolls 11:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC) excessive white space due to my comment interferring with User:Equazcion's image on my browser...feel free to edit my post to reformat
- Tidied up per request --Taelus (talk) 12:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is just like the main page view statistic as a reason to say people know anyone can edit. A number like this doesn't mean anything unless you can compare it to another number. 3 edits per second sounds like alot, but that still doesn't mean we know how it compares to the number of article views we're getting by people who might have edited had they known they could. Equazcion (talk) 12:11, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- "The Free Encyclopedia that Anyone can Edit"? What's with the capitalization? Jafeluv (talk) 12:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just my interpretation. "The Free Encyclopedia" was always capitalized, so I figured the rest would be too if we added stuff to it. "that" and "can" are lowercase due to being articles or "unimportant" words, which traditionally aren't capitalized in titles and slogans. I'm not married t this format, it was just a choice based on what was already there. Equazcion (talk) 12:37, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- I capitalized "can", on further thought. Equazcion (talk) 12:41, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- "The Free Encyclopedia that Anyone can Edit"? What's with the capitalization? Jafeluv (talk) 12:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Again, for what it's worth, the large edit button on the top of the page seems to be enough for people to get the general idea. References are there for a reason, they let people verify what they're reading. And if someone happens to read an article that has I love Joe! in the middle of it, I think users have enough common sense to know it's vandalism. The 'new' logo looks like, but I think it might be bulky on the side bar. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 15:13, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just because there's an edit button doesn't mean that I can edit - it would be easy, as a clueless visitor, to assume the button is for registered experts only (and that "I love Joe" means the site's been hacked). The "anyone can edit" approach could be made clearer. On the other hand, I'm not totally convinced that putting the objective of Wikipedia (a free encyclopedia) on a par with the method (anyone can edit) in the logo is a good idea. Also, I'm not totally convinced that "anyone can edit" encapsulates the method ideally. Maybe there's no better phrasing, but it would be nice if there were. Finally, I'm not sold on the "disclaimer" being worth much except in court; nobody reads those things. So the question is whether we can be clearer to visitors, who generally don't enter via the main page, without taking up too much space or uglifying things. On balance, the proposed change does that; I just wonder if we can do better? Rd232 talk 16:26, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Or we could make it more accurate: "...The free encyclopedia that almost anyone can edit most of the time". ;P -- Ϫ 16:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that there are any other wording choices. This has the best chance for wide support since it's already a slogan in use. There are a few formatting variations I'm brainstorming though. If anyone has any ideas let me know. Equazcion (talk) 17:06, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should go with the longer slogan. It's beneficial to stress that anyone can edit the encyclopedia; we might get more edits that way. We can put an asterisk next to "anyone" if need be. Tisane (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's ridiculous IMO. Too long, looks silly and unprofessional (and I'm not referring to the sarcastic one I wrote above). It's perfectly fine the way it is, nice and short and simple, like a slogan should be. -- Ϫ 19:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I concur. It should just be left the way it is. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not entirely sure of the mockup myself, but the OP's concerns still have merit. If you're not in agreement on that premise, feel free to discontinue commenting on this thread, but this page is intended to brainstorm with an eye towards the optimistic, rather than to flat-out oppose or support a suggested implementation. If you agree with the premise but not on the suggested solution, please do offer thoughts on possible alternatives. Remember a logo change is just one way to handle this. Text located elsewhere could be another solution. Equazcion (talk) 20:37, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- The logo could be contracted out to a graphic designer. But I think we could start by changing the tagline. Of course, we should implement a parserfunction to detect if the user is blocked, and if so make it say "the free encyclopedia that anyone except you can edit, because you're such a frickin' dork for not taking the hint when we told you to quit vandalizing." Try making a mockup of that! Tisane (talk) 20:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sticking parserfunctions in the tagline is a surefire way to get yourself chased out of town by Domas beating you with a melted server (I'm not even sure if the tagline takes parser functions...). But I think the tagline is a better target for this than the logo or pagetitle. Happy‑melon 20:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you mean the tagline under the logo, that's what is meant by "the logo", since it's part of the image. If not then I'm not sure which tagline you're referring to. Equazcion (talk) 20:53, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- The tagline is the bit immediately under the page header, which says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". Rd232 talk 21:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- (I will commment as I see fit) Changing the tag line is a) much easier b) can be reverted easier, and c) isn't as intrusive as changing the logo. There's already a tagline. We should talk about that. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah. Yeah that's an option. It's not as visible as the logo (I didn't even notice it til pointed out to me just now), but it's better than nothing, if the logo change is deemed unfeasible. Equazcion (talk) 21:43, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- So... do we want to draft a proposal, perhaps in two parts with the issue below (linking the word "free" to something explanatory)? Then take it to VPR? Rd232 talk 22:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it appears that most of the people participating in this discussion want to draft a proposal. I suggest changing both the logo and the tag line (ie. "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit"). Both as some newcomers will look at the logo while some will look at the tag line. Xnquist (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- So... do we want to draft a proposal, perhaps in two parts with the issue below (linking the word "free" to something explanatory)? Then take it to VPR? Rd232 talk 22:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- The tagline is the bit immediately under the page header, which says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". Rd232 talk 21:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you mean the tagline under the logo, that's what is meant by "the logo", since it's part of the image. If not then I'm not sure which tagline you're referring to. Equazcion (talk) 20:53, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
- Sticking parserfunctions in the tagline is a surefire way to get yourself chased out of town by Domas beating you with a melted server (I'm not even sure if the tagline takes parser functions...). But I think the tagline is a better target for this than the logo or pagetitle. Happy‑melon 20:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The logo could be contracted out to a graphic designer. But I think we could start by changing the tagline. Of course, we should implement a parserfunction to detect if the user is blocked, and if so make it say "the free encyclopedia that anyone except you can edit, because you're such a frickin' dork for not taking the hint when we told you to quit vandalizing." Try making a mockup of that! Tisane (talk) 20:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's ridiculous IMO. Too long, looks silly and unprofessional (and I'm not referring to the sarcastic one I wrote above). It's perfectly fine the way it is, nice and short and simple, like a slogan should be. -- Ϫ 19:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should go with the longer slogan. It's beneficial to stress that anyone can edit the encyclopedia; we might get more edits that way. We can put an asterisk next to "anyone" if need be. Tisane (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Improve_the_WP_tagline. Rd232 talk 00:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could run some Wikipedia ads to also make people aware that they can indeed edit it.Smallman12q (talk) 11:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
School IPs
Thought: school IPs are often tagged with {{schoolip}}. I reckon it ought to slightly put school users off vandalising if they know their IP is identifying their school. But they won't find this out unless they happen to get a warning message and then visit the talk page. So why not somehow (would need a software change I guess) permanently show a warning to school IPs: "we know where you are" - or words to that effect :) ... ? It shouldn't be too obtrusive of course; maybe it could replace the IP number at the top with the name given by the schoolip template? (Or keep the IP and add the name in brackets.) Rd232 talk 20:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Any idea for the warning? I suggest the follow, but we should get it run by lawyers first.
- It is already possible to do the check,
{{#ifeq:{{str find|{{User talk:{{REVISIONUSER}}|template-sharedipedu}}|-1|<!--untagged-->| {{SharedIPEDU warning}} }}
you just need to addtemplate-sharedipedu
in the first 80 character of the template. — Dispenser 01:14, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Serious violation of no legal threats and that policy exists for a reason.©Geni 01:37, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- To original point: No, it doesn't put people off. As a kid whose school IP is blocked until 2013' (and who's talked to kids and sysadmins about it), the reaction is usually "Great! Get the school in trouble, lol." It's almost an incentive that they, by doing something so small, could get a result so big. Of course, the novelty wears off, but along comes another kid. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 02:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- The president seal seems inappropriate for such a template, because most schools aren't in the USA (hence it would be humorous to some vandals). I agree with Sonia on the principle that it'd fuel vandalism by school IPs instead of stopping it, so I'd recommend finding another way to combat this i.e. tightening warnings so that educational institutions are treated like everyone else. There's just no use in being lenient on those who already possess a history of vandalism, even if it dates back to 3 months ago. A lack of severity will be reflected in a continuing lack of discipline. Deagle_AP (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
This has gone off in a rather different direction than I meant. What I had in mind was a relatively discrete notification in the top right, identifying the school alongside or instead of the IP (for non-logged-in users from that IP). It could be clickable for further information. The point is to show "we know where you are", and the "further information" could clarify that the person could be reported to their school administrators, something like that. And make it clear that getting that IP blocked isn't "getting the school in trouble", it's merely for the benefit of Wikipedia to combat morons. Properly worded, it should be more along the lines of "do you want to be the 10 millionth moron to vandalise a random page?" than "we're gonna sue you". So to Sonia in particular - does something in this direction sound perhaps worth doing? Some variation? Rd232 talk 22:34, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would also point out that Conservapedia bans people at the drop of a hat and prominently warns that vandalism is punishable under federal law,[3] but I don't know of any wiki that gets vandalized more than that one. Vandalism is not all that big a deal, by the way — every open wiki will have vandals, and it is an easy matter to revert. Easier, in fact, than it is for them to vandalize to begin with. The bigger deal we make out of vandalism, the more we'll attract people seeking lulz from our reactions. Tisane (talk) 23:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually Tisane I have to disagree with you there. Every time someone vandalises a page, you can be sure that it's not a 100% chance it'll get reverted. The small percentages of edits that we miss will accumulate over time, and hence the number of vandalised pages will steadily increase, particularly in cases where the vandalism cannot be easily identified (ie sneaky types). However, we must be direct and not exaggerate our concerns. Saying something along the lines of "10 millionth vandal" is not the way to do it, because persistent vandals seek pleasure from being able to continually disrupt Wikipedia, and using civility against vandals is the option (or we can just ignore their attention-seeking antics all together). Deagle_AP (talk) 03:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I dunno about that. Sneaky vandalism that's important will tend to attract notice from some knowledgeable person and get hit with the {{fact}} tag and eventually be removed, if it's not immediately removed. And the vandal's other contributions will usually come under scrutiny once one act of vandalism is detected. The bottom line is, people should know by now that anything they read on Wikipedia is suspect unless it's sourced; and if sourced information still seems suspect, it's a good idea to check that source. The same applies to anything else one reads, online or offline, of course.
- Actually Tisane I have to disagree with you there. Every time someone vandalises a page, you can be sure that it's not a 100% chance it'll get reverted. The small percentages of edits that we miss will accumulate over time, and hence the number of vandalised pages will steadily increase, particularly in cases where the vandalism cannot be easily identified (ie sneaky types). However, we must be direct and not exaggerate our concerns. Saying something along the lines of "10 millionth vandal" is not the way to do it, because persistent vandals seek pleasure from being able to continually disrupt Wikipedia, and using civility against vandals is the option (or we can just ignore their attention-seeking antics all together). Deagle_AP (talk) 03:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I favor showing civility to vandals so as not to provoke them to have a vendetta, and basically killing them with kindness. I think most of them will become ashamed and stop if treated that way. Of course, at some point a block becomes necessary, but blocks generally shouldn't be for long periods, because that just encourages sockpuppetry. When I see vandalism show up on my watchlist, I just revert it, hit the guy with a {{test}} template, and go on my merry way, not only because I don't want to reward attention-getting antics, but because I have other stuff to do. Tisane (talk) 03:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
This has got off-course again, in a way I don't see getting very helpful. Back to the specific issue: is signalling to every non-logged-in-user from a known school IP, on every page, that we know their location, a possible way to deter vandalism (a little)? This would be done in the top right "preferences" line, next to the IP address (which I guess could/should still be displayed). In addition, how about linking that school name either to a generic intro/info page, or even to one customisable for the school (semi-protected, I guess), perhaps by the school administrators if they choose to? Rd232 talk 00:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- cool idea! A general one would work well and then it could have subpages for individual schools to use if they so chose? I don't know how much it would deter, though. As someone said earlier, some students want to get the school in trouble. VerballyInsane 14:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the wanting to get the school "in trouble" is an issue. I think one advantage of having an explanatory general page is that it can make clear that vandalism will not get the school in trouble. It will simply get the IP blocked, and Wikipedia won't care. Few schools have legitimate tasks involving editing Wikipedia, and that's all that's blocked - so it's not even inconveniencing any school users (except for limiting their ability to sod about in class when they should be working). And if it's bad enough and/or the school administrators care, there's risk the vandal may get in trouble because schools may monitor traffic and user logins and may trace vandalism to the person if they can be bothered. It's that (small) risk, properly explained, which may have a deterrent effect, clarifying that "not logged in" is not the same as "anonymous". Rd232 talk 14:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the Presidential seal is not intimidating enough; we'll want to customize it by IP address, as follows:
Extended content
|
---|
For users with U.S. IP addresses, we would want to use the following warning: For those with IP addresses outside the U.S., we would want to display this one: And for those whose IP addresses indicate that they're editing from a Christian church or parochial school, we would want to display this warning: Most of the other major religions also have concepts of Hell, so I'm sure we can come up with warnings for them too. |
Tisane (talk) 18:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well that's very entertaining I'm sure. FWIW, Dispenser's original notice, which inspired that, was nothing like what I had in mind with my original idea. The core idea is merely to tell school IP visitors that they are not anonymous. Rd232 talk 18:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- The templates above really don't seem appropriate for Wikipedia. They seem to border on scare tactics, especially with the big font for "THE LORD" etc. I'm still of the view that vandals will only laugh at such attempts to discourage them. For school students trying to be normal editors, it might be annoying for them to see that they're being tracked from page to page. Therefore, Rd232 I really don't think this is the right way to approach vandals. Deagle_AP (talk) 03:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Edit notice
- Why not an edit notice? Sole Soul (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you expand on that? You mean an edit notice specific to articles particularly vulnerable to school IP vandalism? This was recently mentioned elsewhere, it seems like a reasonable idea - could be complementary to the original suggestion, rather than necessarily a substitute. Should be a standard template to drop in editnotices of vulnerable articles (cf Category:Editnotice templates), maybe with a specific version for school articles. Rd232 talk 17:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. That would make sense, targetting school IPs when they click "edit". It raises similar tech issues to the original idea. I'm not sure how difficult this would be to do; perhaps we could ask at WP:VPT for an opinion. I'm not anticipating any rapid implementation for an idea like this, but Wikipedia isn't going anywhere (hopefully). And in the short term an edit notice could be applied specifically to articles often targetted by school IPs - the sort of articles often semi-protected I suppose. Which leads perhaps to the related thought that just as MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext identifies the Main Page and provides custom text, maybe these vulnerable, semi-protected pages could also be identified. Custom instructions could point more enthusiatically to the sandbox, for instance, or otherwise be more targetted at a younger audience in terms of presentation or language. Rd232 talk 21:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I would support an edit notice that clearly stated that blocking will occur in the event of vandalism. I would object to any notice that made any off-wiki legal threats (e.g., fines, imprisonment) as I feel that not only should we not be making legal threats, but that a notice that intimidating would discourage useful contributors as well as vandals. Immunize (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Offwiki threats are off the table (not sure they were ever really on it) - let's forget about that. The trouble with saying "blocking will occur" is that it's not necessarily true, because of the sliding warning scale. Rd232 talk 07:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- PS as generally logged-in users it's easy to forget that non-logged-in users always see MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning above the editbox when editing. Rd232 talk 07:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Incidentally, here's one way to do it I wasn't aware of, using Common.js - see Template:BLP editintro. Rd232 talk 09:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I would support an edit notice that clearly stated that blocking will occur in the event of vandalism. I would object to any notice that made any off-wiki legal threats (e.g., fines, imprisonment) as I feel that not only should we not be making legal threats, but that a notice that intimidating would discourage useful contributors as well as vandals. Immunize (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. That would make sense, targetting school IPs when they click "edit". It raises similar tech issues to the original idea. I'm not sure how difficult this would be to do; perhaps we could ask at WP:VPT for an opinion. I'm not anticipating any rapid implementation for an idea like this, but Wikipedia isn't going anywhere (hopefully). And in the short term an edit notice could be applied specifically to articles often targetted by school IPs - the sort of articles often semi-protected I suppose. Which leads perhaps to the related thought that just as MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext identifies the Main Page and provides custom text, maybe these vulnerable, semi-protected pages could also be identified. Custom instructions could point more enthusiatically to the sandbox, for instance, or otherwise be more targetted at a younger audience in terms of presentation or language. Rd232 talk 21:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Question regarding bibliography articles
I think we may be coming to the point where at least for some articles and topics, the immediately obvious sources have been, basically, mined already. Also, in some cases, the various sources which do exist might not be always immediately obvious to many. Having a list of sources created for some primary subjects, like countries, disciplines, etc., might be one way to both let people know what sources exist and are considered basically reliable, as well as to, potentially, make it easier for school groups. And, in some cases, it might help make it more obvious that the available English language sources have already been, basically, mined. Wallis and Futuna comes to mind here, considering I find only one English source, about songs there, and four French sources dedicated to the general topic. Would it make sense to perhaps somewhat prioritize development of such separate bibliographical articles? John Carter (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is a good idea, at least for reasonably narrowly-defined topics where it can stay manageable. I'm not sure they should be separate mainspace articles though. Some WikiProjects have lists of resources, but they're often not very well organised. If placed on a separate page, the list can be linked more prominently, maybe from project banners (like portals often are) and from portals. That would be a start, at least. Rd232 talk 20:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- The talk page isn't good enough for this purpose? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, because the list should be permanent and easily found. A talkpage thread isn't necessarily either, and will eventually get archived. Rd232 talk 07:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- You can make a subpage of the Talk page and then link it above the TOC in a notice (that won't get archived). This seems like it would be a fantastic idea, IMO. VerballyInsane 00:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that would work, and bring the resources more upfront. But some effort should be made to tie the subpages together via a relevant wikiproject, to avoid needless duplication. If necessary, have different bibliography subpages of the wikiproject for different topic areas, so the talkpage subpage can transclude the relevant one(s). As so often, a template can help make things easier and show how it can be done. Rd232 talk 08:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- And, of course, if there are explicit articles or books which are themselves, effectively, bibliographies (and there are regarding virtually every country and religion I've seen, and probably several other topics as well) they would probably be notable enough to clearly qualify for a separate article. John Carter (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- So you tag the talk-page section as something that shouldn't be archived. (It's not hard.) Personally, I'd probably place the list at the top of the talk page (either in a {{todo}}-style box or simply as a regular section). I think the primary advantage to using the talk page is that all serious editors automatically look there for any/all information about what was done previously -- which means that the list is far more likely to be noticed by editors, and you don't have to reinvent the wheel. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:18, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that would work, and bring the resources more upfront. But some effort should be made to tie the subpages together via a relevant wikiproject, to avoid needless duplication. If necessary, have different bibliography subpages of the wikiproject for different topic areas, so the talkpage subpage can transclude the relevant one(s). As so often, a template can help make things easier and show how it can be done. Rd232 talk 08:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- The talk page isn't good enough for this purpose? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Well I've created Template:Bibliotalk and made a proposal/request at Template_talk:WPBannerMeta#Bibliography_box. Does this seem like the right direction? Rd232 talk 01:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting idea. Obvious question: why could this list of sources not be put in the references section on the article itself? I'm not sure whether {{WPBM}} is the best place to propose this because I can't see the direct link with WikiProjects - this idea seems to transcend the WikiProject structure. If an article has no related WikiProjects (okay that's unlikely) then the link would not appear; if it's within the scope of 10 projects then the link would be duplicated 10 times which is redundancy. I could see a case for a link being included on the banner shell {{WPBS}}, if this idea takes off. And that could be done automatically using page detection rather than using a parameter. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think you've got the wires crossed of the two proposals. Template:Bibliotalk is a bibliography specific to an article; this adds value to an in-article Reference List by virtue of being annotatable, eg being able to list good references editors don't have access to but which should be checked out; or even bad sources ruled out. The Banner box is for a link to a specific wikiproject's general bibliography page, covering all articles within the wikiproject's purview. So 10 banners = 10 different biblio pages. Rd232 talk 12:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think I was confused. Do any WikiProjects currently maintain a bibliography page? If so, we could look at adding a box to those banners. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well it's a chicken and egg thing, isn't it? I'm not aware of WikiProjects with bibliography pages - but there are some with resources pages, and many more with resources sections which could become separate pages. Adding the parameter to bannermeta, plus a bit of publicising, makes it something that can develop relatively easily, if anyone is willing to pick up the thread for an individual project. Rd232 talk 14:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it is quite chicken and egg. The page needs to exist before you put a link to it! I don't think it would be appropriate to implement this in the meta-template until there is a proven demand for it from a significant number of projects. (Generally we try to keep the meta as simple and easy to use as possible by not adding code which is only used by a few projects.) So the way this could work is:
- Suggest the idea to a few active WikiProjects who you think might be interested.
- Work on adding support for it in their project banner. (I could probably help with this.)
- Perhaps it proves useful and some more projects create similar pages and add links to their banners.
- Then we can start to think about whether there is an advantage to adding a new parameter to the meta-template.
- — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it is quite chicken and egg. The page needs to exist before you put a link to it! I don't think it would be appropriate to implement this in the meta-template until there is a proven demand for it from a significant number of projects. (Generally we try to keep the meta as simple and easy to use as possible by not adding code which is only used by a few projects.) So the way this could work is:
- Well it's a chicken and egg thing, isn't it? I'm not aware of WikiProjects with bibliography pages - but there are some with resources pages, and many more with resources sections which could become separate pages. Adding the parameter to bannermeta, plus a bit of publicising, makes it something that can develop relatively easily, if anyone is willing to pick up the thread for an individual project. Rd232 talk 14:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think I was confused. Do any WikiProjects currently maintain a bibliography page? If so, we could look at adding a box to those banners. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think you've got the wires crossed of the two proposals. Template:Bibliotalk is a bibliography specific to an article; this adds value to an in-article Reference List by virtue of being annotatable, eg being able to list good references editors don't have access to but which should be checked out; or even bad sources ruled out. The Banner box is for a link to a specific wikiproject's general bibliography page, covering all articles within the wikiproject's purview. So 10 banners = 10 different biblio pages. Rd232 talk 12:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Stop distributing database dumps from Wikimedia servers; seed through torrents instead
I was browsing through Wikimedia's database dumps and noted their large sizes: up to 200GB for a full history dump of EN. Even the current-version-only dump, the version commonly used by mirror sites, is about 6GB. A test download showed, from I can gather, that these downloads are unthrottled. With all the sites mirroring Wikipedia, this could add up to a lot of bandwidth that could otherwise be improving response times for people actually using Wikipedia. While it's our responsibility to make our free content available to everyone, I don't think it should be our responsibility to pay for them to get it as fast as possible, to the detriment of our own community.
I wonder if instead of distributing dumps from Wikimedia servers on a permanent basis, we could instead seed dumps for limited time via BitTorrent. If a torrent dies, a request could be made to the foundation for a temporary re-seed; or, a permanent "trickle" seed could be maintained from Wikimedia servers following the initial unthrottled seed, so that in case no other seeds exist at all, the torrent still won't die completely.
Taking this further, we would even implement our own torrent tracker that requires peers to maintain a certain share ratio, meaning that they'd have to seed dumps themselves a certain amount, relative to how much they've downloaded, or be cut off until they upload more. This could ensure the torrents stay alive with enough outgoing bandwidth for others to keep downloading, with minimal further demand from Wikimedia servers. There would be some technical logistics to work out for this, like keeping track of share ratios via IP or some kind of account system.
Thoughts? Equazcion (talk) 00:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- First of all (just for information for anyone trying to download), the most recent dump you can get right now is the March 12 dump since the newer dumps are screwed up. Second, mirror sites (and AWB users) generally download the smaller pages-articles dump (~5 GB) and then link back to Wikipedia to comply with the Creative Commons license. The mirror sites which include images generally hotlink them from Wikimedia servers since there is no image dump. One thing that is lacking, however, is incremental dumping, including only what has changed since the last dump. Note that peer-to-peer downloading tends to be slower than direct downloading, and if given a choice, many would do the direct download. PleaseStand (talk) 00:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've noted above that the mirror sites tend to use the smaller (5/6GB dump). And, yes, of course everyone would rather use the direct download, since it's faster -- but again, as I said, it's faster at our expense. It's not our job to pay for everyone to direct-download so that they can get our content as fast as possible; only that it's available to them. Equazcion (talk) 00:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are there any figures on how much bandwidth is actually being eaten up by this? It might be insignificant. But even if it is expensive, the data dumps are rather important to our mission and values, and therefore we shouldn't diminish the performance too much. If anything, we should enhance the availability of the data by making incremental dumps and a feed available, perhaps for a fee. Tisane (talk) 04:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've noted above that the mirror sites tend to use the smaller (5/6GB dump). And, yes, of course everyone would rather use the direct download, since it's faster -- but again, as I said, it's faster at our expense. It's not our job to pay for everyone to direct-download so that they can get our content as fast as possible; only that it's available to them. Equazcion (talk) 00:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- IIRC, there used to be some unofficial torrents available, but too few people were using them. In any case, I'm not aware of dumps actually slowing down connections for other users. Wikimedia's outbound traffic peaks at over 8 Gb/s, a few dozen people downloading dumps once a month or so is really just a drop in the bucket and we probably have plenty of bandwidth to spare. Mr.Z-man 14:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- My assumption that there is a server performance and bandwidth deficit is partly based on my experience with browsing and editing. I often get lagging responses, and we all have experienced those database lags, especially during peak usage hours. I'm not convinced that we actually have much to spare, but granted I don't have the stats to back that up. Equazcion (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Inactive WikiProjects
I've been looking recently at inactive WikiProjects (in Category:Inactive WikiProjects; see also Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Inactive projects). What I'm thinking, first, is whether we shouldn't reconsider what exactly it means for a project to be {{inactive}} or {{semi-active}}. Particularly for well-established projects with a lot of automation set up (project banner assessments, article alerts, new article bot, etc), a project can be very useful for editors without there being any visible activity, and perhaps without new editors bothering to add their names. Ironically, they're less likely to bother if the project is marked inactive! And a particular problem, possibly, is that new editors coming along may be reluctant to remove semi-active or inactive tags, in terms of taking responsibility or not being sure if it's "allowed". One possibility would be to provide a link in those tags to an active central page where they can discuss this (by definition, the relevant project talk page probably isn't a good place for advice). There might be other ideas too, including changing the guidelines for the inactive tag. Or perhaps reconceive the tags altogether: instead of "inactive" or "semi-active", say "low activity" or something less off-putting like that; or even perhaps provide some automated measure of actual activity (eg X edits to project articles in the last 30 days, of which Y by project participants).
Secondly, I wonder if we can find more ways to help all projects be more active. On the latter point, I've created WP:INACTIVEWP, a section in the WikiProject Guide, and created some subdivisions in Category:Inactive WikiProjects to help get an overview. I also wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have a bot go around and annotate participant lists, splitting off inactive users in a subheading, according to some reasonable definition (eg indefinitely blocked > 1 month, no edits to any page > 1 year). In theory this could also be used to automatically mark projects inactive (if no active participants exist), but that probably wouldn't happen too often anyway. Beyond that, can we find more ways to help merge the small projects that spring up? Or to more generally encourage and support project activity? I think more links between projects, even unrelated projects where pages overlap (eg a norwegian film-maker: WikiProject Norway, WikiProject Films), might help. Other ideas? Thoughts? Rd232 talk 21:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Three thoughts:
- If editors are paralyzed by doubt about whether it's okay to remove a tag that directly says, "Feel free to remove this tag", then their problems are likely much larger than we can solve.
- If the members aren't talking to each other, then the project effectively doesn't exist, even if all of the individual editors happen to keep editing articles in the project's area.
- Participant lists are kept in so many different formats that I seriously doubt that a bot could process them all... although if you find a way around this, I'd be happy to hear about it; I was thinking just the other day that it's probably time to weed WP:MED's participant list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- I doubt there are that many different formats for participant lists. They're basically all bulleted lists under a heading, either on the main page or a subpage. Some variation between "members", "participants", etc; nothing unsolvable. The remaining ones can be standardised gradually. Rd232 talk 23:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- On the inactive tag - well on the one hand I see why you say that, but on the other hand, what the tag actually says is "Feel free to remove this tag if activity resumes or if this tag was placed in error." This involves a decision with unclear criteria: how is "activity resuming" defined? How much is enough to justify removing it? Who gets to decide that? What does "in error" really mean? Especially for relative newbies who've perhaps not been in an active project before, these issues can all be very mysterious - and there's no obvious place to ask for help. Rd232 talk 23:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I think Rd232 raises some important issues and has some very good points here. Particularly true is the idea that editors are less likely to bother signing up and/or reviving a project if it's already marked inactive, and this discourages collaboration. I'm in favor of doing two of the things Rd232 mentions, either reword the inactive template to something more off-putting such as "low activity" (this way we could deprecate the semi-active template), and/or change the guidelines to lengthen the time of inactivity to a much longer timespan before placing the inactive template. -- Ϫ 14:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Rd232, Please click here, here (be sure to scroll to the end of the page), and here, and then come back and tell me whether you still believe that "they're all basically bulleted lists".
- NB that I don't oppose an automated method of identifying active participants. I'd be happy to see an organized annual audit of both participants and projects, and I ask that you start with any project that I've ever interacted with. I just don't think that it's going to be feasible.
- If we're just developing wish lists, I also want the WikiProject directory to become an automagically self-maintaining page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- OK, so some of them are in tables - big whoop, a bot can handle that, if designed to (or else the projects can change to accommodate the bot, if they want its services; or they can do without). And yes, the bot should also be able to handle the userbox categories, and do something sensible with them (eg comment out the userbox for inactive users). A self-maintaining WikiProject directory is a great idea and could actually be relatively easy if it's set up so the templates which make up the project entries are kept instead on the relevant project page (and maybe merged with the {{inactive}} template). Then all you need is a bot that checks the templates and copies to the directory page. The tricky part would be maintaining the categorisation of WikiProjects, eg "History and society", but I think the template/bot can handle that too. We can turn this into a proposal now, and then WP:BOTREQ and hopefully someone will step up and do it. These two things together would help a lot. A third thing, I think, would be making it stupidly easy for WikiProjects to remind their participants of their existence. What I imagine here is a newsletter bot which on perhaps a quarterly or even monthly basis simply reminds active editors listed as participants "you are listed as a member of Projects X,Y,Z", along with some current tasks (if the project has them) or else the standard {{Help Out}} (with a don't-remind-me optout possible, of course). Apart from reminding the editor, it would also advertise the projects to talk page visitors, who might well have similar interests. Rd232 talk 11:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
unarchived premature archiving
So, how about merging {{project}}, {{inactive}}, {{semi-active}} and perhaps even {{defunct}}, using a new language of "low activity" , and effectively dropping the inactive/semi-active distinction which I think is either not very helpful or even counter-productive in practice (see discussion above)? Rd232 talk 14:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd accept a merge of {{Defunct}} into {{Inactive}}, but not the others. I don't think that there's anything wrong with telling potential participants that a project like WP:AFOD is highly unlikely to respond quickly to their questions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well focussing on that "likely response" as an objective makes the merger I suggested make more sense. Projects defined as "semi-active" are unlikely to give a rapid response to passersby either! I do think this "response time" is a sensible way of looking at it, and it makes sense to me to label all projects which still exist and serve some purpose but are unlikely to give a rapid response to a question as "low activity" (could distinguish "very low activity" if we want). Merging the templates is in a way a separate issue, since it's really about adding a |activity= parameter to {{project}}, and we can define the activity levels any way we want, including the existing scheme - but keeps things a bit tidier and more organised. Incidentally, you didn't reply to the incomplete bot discussion above. Rd232 talk 07:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think that one complex template is preferable to three simple templates, especially where new editors are concerned. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well focussing on that "likely response" as an objective makes the merger I suggested make more sense. Projects defined as "semi-active" are unlikely to give a rapid response to passersby either! I do think this "response time" is a sensible way of looking at it, and it makes sense to me to label all projects which still exist and serve some purpose but are unlikely to give a rapid response to a question as "low activity" (could distinguish "very low activity" if we want). Merging the templates is in a way a separate issue, since it's really about adding a |activity= parameter to {{project}}, and we can define the activity levels any way we want, including the existing scheme - but keeps things a bit tidier and more organised. Incidentally, you didn't reply to the incomplete bot discussion above. Rd232 talk 07:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- As another editor has pointed out at a very low edit project - he spent 9 months re-jigging a project, I have been party to a number of project creations - some are potentially 'inert' but they serve a very important process - they organise information within a very larger project to keep things coherent - I would even object to 'low activity'. I can think also of larger more aggressive projects that at a point in time try to justify moving in on projects to swallow them up (its true) - I believe that project status should be as loosely defined as possible to (a) respect the integrity of a projects scope (b) allow revitalising by anyone enthusiastic enough to revive flagging projects (c) keep scope challenged editors in larger projects from subsuming adjacent projects simply because they are related (d) allow review of false start or permanently damaged projects to move into more appropriate areas with some level of respect. It is possible for as few as 1 or 2 editors to actually revive projects - if they have the time and patience to go through the process - I believe a page of instructions/essay/guide should be produced for editors shocked to find their favourite subject project is at deaths door so to speak - many editors come and go - there very few long timers around to pass on anecdotes on issues an 'history' of some areas - a revival process guideline would be an important issue of succession management that occurs in many organisations and management structures. SatuSuro 02:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify - some merges between projects can be seen to be made in a negative sense - in relation to my comments made above - merges have a few levels to them - they are a case by case issue and not easily generalised about. As for the templates regarding a projects state I would suggest a different wording to project templates this project needs help - rather than this project is currently inactive SatuSuro 02:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with that change in emphasis - that's what I'm suggesting. I've created WP:INACTIVEWP and CAT:INACTIVEWP, and linked the former from the relevant project templates, to try and pull some guidance together. However I do think we need some kind of template indication of the level of activity of a project, because it ensures that currently listed members have some degree of agreement with that. Otherwise, it's purely down to individual editors guessing, by looking at the last dates of talk messages or edit history - which is more likely to be misleading in a low-activity project which still serves a purpose than a "low activity" notice. So I think we need that, but really emphasise the What You Can Do. One thing worth doing would be adding {{Help Out}} to every low-activity project which has little guidance on how new members can contribute. Rd232 talk 09:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify - some merges between projects can be seen to be made in a negative sense - in relation to my comments made above - merges have a few levels to them - they are a case by case issue and not easily generalised about. As for the templates regarding a projects state I would suggest a different wording to project templates this project needs help - rather than this project is currently inactive SatuSuro 02:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would agree with the helpout item - you never know who might decide to join in if they saw that rather than last one out turn the light off messages SatuSuro 10:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- As another editor has pointed out at a very low edit project - he spent 9 months re-jigging a project, I have been party to a number of project creations - some are potentially 'inert' but they serve a very important process - they organise information within a very larger project to keep things coherent - I would even object to 'low activity'. I can think also of larger more aggressive projects that at a point in time try to justify moving in on projects to swallow them up (its true) - I believe that project status should be as loosely defined as possible to (a) respect the integrity of a projects scope (b) allow revitalising by anyone enthusiastic enough to revive flagging projects (c) keep scope challenged editors in larger projects from subsuming adjacent projects simply because they are related (d) allow review of false start or permanently damaged projects to move into more appropriate areas with some level of respect. It is possible for as few as 1 or 2 editors to actually revive projects - if they have the time and patience to go through the process - I believe a page of instructions/essay/guide should be produced for editors shocked to find their favourite subject project is at deaths door so to speak - many editors come and go - there very few long timers around to pass on anecdotes on issues an 'history' of some areas - a revival process guideline would be an important issue of succession management that occurs in many organisations and management structures. SatuSuro 02:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Make it easier for people to put discussion items on Wikiproject talk pages, rather than on article talk pages
First: I want to say that this Village Pump is long overdue. If it is ever threatened with the axe, please summon me and I will issue a more thorough encomium.
Before I make my proposal, here's the observation that inspired it: After a year of serious WP editing, I've started to feel that it's generally better when article discussions go on WikiProject talk pages, rather than on the article talk page. Threads on Wikiprojects are less likely to languish unnoticed, and more likely to reach the attention of an "expert" in the subject. (Yes, there are downsides: when comments skip the article's talk page, evolving editor consensus won't get associated with the article, and might get overlooked by people who have only watchlisted the article. But the latter shortcoming will be partially addressed when more people start watchlisting wikiprojects; and both shortcomings can be fully addressed if the wikiproject discussion gets mentioned at the article talk page, perhaps via the automation that I describe below.)
Therefore, I'm interested in discussing proposals whose function is to make it more likely that people will raise article issues at Wikiproject talk pages, rather than at the article talk pages. For example,
- In each of the Wikiproject templates that we put in article talk pages, there could be a prominent button, "Start a thread at this wikiproject". It is like hitting "New section" at the wikiproject talk page, except its header is pre-populated with the text,
RE: [[ArticleName]]:
, and when the section is saved, a "talkback" thread automatically appear at the article talk page. - Write a javascript (or edit Wikimedia), so that when you're on an article's Talk page, the "New Section" button has a dropdown that lets you add a new section to any of the associated wikiprojects, employing the automation in the previous bullet (pre-populated header, talkback thread at article).
- When you hit "edit" on an article talk page, the edit box could be preceded by a caption, which invites the editor to add a new section to any of the associated wikiprojects ... the "New section" button employing the above-mentioned automation.
- Any other ideas I'm missing!
AConcernedChicken (talk) 05:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is interesting, but there's a core assumption which needs unravelling, which is that it's generally better to discuss things on a wikiproject talk page. It's widely felt that in general the best place for discussion is the article talk page, since that's where new users are most likely to see it. So we may think more in terms of advertising discussion elsewhere than moving it. For instance, quite a few projects have separate Noticeboards, which would be convenient for the purpose (keeping the wikiproject talk page for more "meta" discussion about the project). However most noticeboards are actually or virtually defunct. It's a chicken-and-egg thing... I do see your point, but maybe my thoughts lead us more in the direction of putting a link to Special:RecentChangesLinked in the project banner, providing easy access to all recent talk page discussions covered by the project (see WP:INACTIVEWP point 8.) Also, are project noticeboards generally linked from their banners? If not, maybe they should be. I do see that maybe on low activity pages a template could be added "consider notifying the noticeboard by clicking here..." the trouble is this will cover the vast majority of pages! And somewhat perversely, a page where someone bothers to add such a template will be by definition unusually high activity (even if it's still pretty low). So it would need to be in the banner, but you can't identify low activity pages there. So maybe a general noticeboard link is enough. Main problem: not sure there's room inside the project banner for much clarification on usage. Rd232 talk 07:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply Rd232, sorry I can't reply in detail at the moment. However, I wonder if folks will please take a look at this url --
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WP:Sandbox&action=edit§ion=new&preloadtitle={{subst:RE:}}
- Sorry I can't render it as a URL -- I have asked about this problem at a thread in VPT. AGradman / talk.
Rollbacks and sinebot
Can we make rollbacks roll right over sinebot's edits so the actual vandalism can be reverted? Is there some way around this presently that I'm unaware of? Equazcion (talk) 00:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I can't render it as a URL -- I have asked about this problem at a thread in VPT. AGradman / talk.