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:{{ping|Bookku}} Try sorting your differences with USaamo first and then you may ask for third parties input, per [[WP:SEEKHELP]]. Cheers! <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 20:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC) |
:{{ping|Bookku}} Try sorting your differences with USaamo first and then you may ask for third parties input, per [[WP:SEEKHELP]]. Cheers! <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 20:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:Thinker78|Thinker78]] I will continue to engage in discussion with them. I feel there is violation of [[WP:BLP]] guidelines in the contentious content addition mentioned above, which is usually supposed to be reverted earliest, if I am not wrong per [[WP:onus]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:SUSPECT&redirect=no WP:SUSPECT]. Usually I work in non BLP segment so I am not that well versed hence I sought early inputs from editors who work in BLP CRIME. Thanks [[User:Bookku| Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge']] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 02:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
::@[[User:Thinker78|Thinker78]] I will continue to engage in discussion with them. I feel there is violation of [[WP:BLP]] guidelines in the contentious content addition mentioned above, which is usually supposed to be reverted earliest, if I am not wrong per [[WP:onus]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:SUSPECT&redirect=no WP:SUSPECT]. Usually I work in non BLP segment so I am not that well versed hence I sought early inputs from editors who work in BLP CRIME. Thanks [[User:Bookku| Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge']] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 02:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:USaamo|USaamo]] At the outset I have contested your changes and there is nothing personal about it. I am open about my pro progressive and women's rights POV and my pro women writings are certainly not limited to Pakistan only. Said that, let us come to the topic, I will prefer to discuss in above relevant subsections if you do not mind. [[User:Bookku| Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge']] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 03:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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===Reflist-talk=== |
===Reflist-talk=== |
Revision as of 03:03, 18 August 2022
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Relevant discussions
- Talk:Minar-e-Pakistan#En masse public molestation and sexual violence against women
- Talk:Minar-e-Pakistan#Removed text
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests/Archives/2021#A section copy edit request
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:53, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
One (brutal) criminal event doesn't justify a Wikipedia article (sorry)
Sorry: how sad this crime and accident may be, Wikipedia can't and shouldn't qualify every incident, sexual or otherwise, to merit a Wikipedia lemma. (See also Wikipedia:Notability.) --Corriebertus (talk) 13:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
@Corriebertus: Thanks for your frank opinion. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Corriebertus. The sexual assaults were disgusting and the victim deserves justice. But this article currently reads like a news entry (see WP:NOTNEWS). I could help clean up and improve this article, but at this point it is not clear if it would meet Wikipedia:Notability (events). Best to wait a few months, even a year, and see if RS are still talking about it.VR talk 13:29, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Continuation of event coverage
- 2021 August 25 مردوں کی رہنمائی کے لیے ایک بنیادی گائیڈ
- Going all wrong – The News International By Salman Akram Raja– Sr. Advocate in Supreme Court of Pakistan, (Part - I September 03, 2021), (Part II September 04, 2021)
- Post 1 month
- 2021-09-25 Post 1 month Malik, Sana (2021-09-25). "The death of society". The Express Tribune Form news media column
- 1 October 2021 onward
- Why Pakistani Women Feel Unsafe in Public Spaces By Zofeen Ebrahim October 12 2021
- Okay it's already in one academic study: Citation: [ https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/9/777 Shakil, Kainat, and Ihsan Yilmaz. 2021] . Religion and Populism in the Global South: Islamist Civilisationism of Pakistan’s Imran Khan. Religions 12: 777. https://doi.org/10.3390/rel12090777
- October 15, 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan case: Rambo, 10 others sent to prison Abid Khan
- October 18, 2021: Extreme misogyny or mere hatred, Zorain Nizamani, The Express Tribune
- November 1, 2021 : Minar-e-Pakistan sexual assault case ~ ByMehmil Khalid Kunwar
- November 9, 2021: Media and My Right to Dignity ~ Shagufta Gul
- Nov 24, 2021 Police complete probe in Lahore rickshaw harassment case ~ samaa.tv
- December 2021
- 09- Dec-2021 Faisalabad Assault
- December 10, 2021 Sialkot Incident: Ramifications & Recommendations
- Reconsidering Justice 26-Dec-2021
- What Pakistani social media talked about in 2021 ~ Pernia Mubashir, Dawn Images 27 Dec, 2021
- Will 2021 Prove to be a Turning Point for Women’s Rights in Pakistan? Mehmil Khalid Kunwar December 28, 2021
- Editorial: The year that was, The News International , December 31, 2021 "..In more violence, women continued to face gender-based violence, with the Noor Muqaddam and the Minar-e-Pakistan cases becoming apt symbols of the status of women in the country..."
- January 2022
- From Noor Mukadam's murder to Gwadar protests, news stories that dominated 2021 aaj.tv Jan 01, 2022
- ARTSPEAK: COURAGE AND COWARDICE ~ Durriya Kazi Published January 9, 2022 - Dawn
- 5 Times PM Imran Khan Engaged In Victim-Blaming ~ The Friday Times January 10, 2022
- Victim Blaming: The Practice Of (Almost) Every Pakistani ~ Mehak Zehra brandsynario.com, Jan 22, 2022
- February 2022
- TikToker accused of filming in police van released, The Express Tribune Pakistan February 14, 2022
- Noor's killer has been found guilty but society continues to get off scot-free for the way it treats women, The Dawn Images Editoria February 25, 2022
- Vagaries of violence ~ Dr Saira Asad, thenews.com.pk March 01, 2022 originally published in December 2021 issue of SouthAsia Magazine
- March 2022
- Domestic Violence: An Intolerable & Unacceptable Abusive Act ~ Dr. Saira Asad, Daily Pakistan 8 Mar, 2022
- ‘Initiatives for women’s empowerment to bring economic development’, The News International March 11, 2022
- Pro-women initiatives to open up avenues for massive economic development: President, Daily Times March 10, 2022
- Muhammad Nadeem. (2022). IMPACT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN PAKISTAN. JOURNAL OF APPLIED LINGUISTICS AND TESOL, 5(1), 24-34. Retrieved from https://jalt.com.pk/index.php/JALT/article/view/617
- June 2022
- Salam-Salmaoui, Rauha, Constructing Gender Identities Multimodally: Young, Middle-Class Pakistanis on Facebook , JYU dissertations, ISBN:978-951-39-9325-2 Page Preface
- July 2022
- August 2022
- Women once again harassed at Minar-e-Pakistan on Independence Day, The Express Tribune August 14, 2022
- Flirting With Women On 14 August Independence Day Celebration At Minar E Pakistan; Daily Jang You Tube Channel (Urdu) Aug 15, 2022
- Dozens of Men Arrested for Harassing Females at Minar-e-Pakistan on 14 August; Salman Ahmed Aug 15, 2022
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:04, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Trajectory of crime in precincts of Minar-e-Pakistan and Lahore
[1]
References
- ^ https://www.dawn.com/news/1641229/case-against-400-for-harassing-making-fun-of-youtuber , https://images.dawn.com/news/1188213/twitter-users-renew-calls-of-yes-all-men-after-woman-assaulted-by-400-men-at-minar-e-pakistan , https://www.dawn.com/news/1641195 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOwAZFVlgYI&t=31s , https://pakistanfrontier.com/2021/08/19/investigation-reveals-ayesha-akram-planned-minar-e-pakistan-incident-as-a-publicity-stunt-with-her-partner-rambo/ https://www.brandsynario.com/another-female-tiktoker-blames-the-victim-for-minar-e-pakistan-incident/ https://www.dawn.com/news/1642014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgtGl_yfww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ny4a3DZjx8 https://dailytimes.com.pk/807469/police-submits-report-in-tiktoker-assault-case/ https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/883597-the-world-of-women https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/887777-minar-e-pakistan-incident-court-releases-98-suspects https://tribune.com.pk/story/2318994/new-world-same-violence-the-questionable-freedom-digital-spaces-enable-for-women https://www.thefridaytimes.com/pakistan-needs-to-devise-a-strategy-against-widespread-sexual-terrorism/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/pakistan-police-release-155-suspects-arrested-in-the-sexual-assault-of-a-youtuber-girl/article36333256.ece https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/09-Sep-2021/court-trashes-plea-seeking-case-against-tiktoker-ayesha-akram-friend , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w99p-mXOOk&t=4s , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cFAIP5nTnI ,
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/11-Oct-2021/minar-e-pakistan-incident-new-audio-tape-exposes-extortion-plan-of-ayesha-akram-and-rambo , https://www.bolnews.com/trending/2021/10/iqrar-ul-hassan-apologizes-for-supporting-ayesha-ikram-after-her-audio-leak/ , https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/12-Oct-2021/3-more-arrested-as-minar-e-pakistan-harassment-case-takes-another-twist , https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/13-Oct-2021/minar-e-pakistan-incident-another-audiotape-of-ayesha-akram-rambo-surfaces , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAIsPEb4FYE , interview with Dolphin Force man : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Woi7_zc5SA , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iUwQ3gIlyE https://www.dawn.com/news/1650972/minar-i-pakistan-case-complainants-associate-seven-others-arrested https://www.dawn.com/news/1662919 https://www.etcnews.tv/tiktoker-ayesha-akram-traffic-accident-mein-zakhmi/ https://nation.com.pk/19-Dec-2021/police-registers-another-sexual-harassment-case-at-minar-e-pakistan , https://www.bolnews.com/latest/2022/01/minar-i-pakistan-assault-case-lahore-court-grants-post-arrest-bail-to-suspect/ , https://arynews.tv/rambo-gets-bail-in-tiktoker-ayesha-akram-blackmailing-case/ https://www.brecorder.com/news/40181640/court-issues-notices-to-suspects-in-lahore-assault-case
- Interviews of Ayesha Akram
- Exclusive Interview Of Dolphin Man (Security volunteer group) Who Reach On Spot Firstly In Minar-E-Pakistan, On YouTube Interview by 24 News HD
- Interview along with legal advisor News Night, on YouTube 20 August 2021 By News Channel Lahore Rang
- Interview along with legal advisor Ayesha Respond Netizens Blames, Mujrim Kon,On YouTube, 21 Aug 2021 By news channel City 42
- Ayesha Akram interviewer Najam Ul Hassan Bajwa 09 October 2021 On YouTube by PNN NEWS Interview after supplementary charge sheet
- Ayesha Akram interview @ Minar e Pakistan 09 October 2021 On YouTube by PNN NEWS Interview after supplementary charge sheet
- Interview along with legal advisor, Minar e Pakistan Ka Plan Kisne Kia? on YouTube Aug 21, 2021 By UrduPoint
- Ayesha Akram Dubara Manzar e Amm Par Agai, Nay Inkashafat Kr Dea, Part 1, National Point 19 February 2022
- Ayesha Akram Exclusive Latest Interview Part 2, National Point, on YouTube, 20 February 2022
- Ayesha Akram Interview @ Digital Rang Feb 19, 2022
- Ayesha Akram Ki Haqiqat @ Social Pakistan 20 February 2022
- Ayesha Akram's interview partially criticizing Aurat March slogans, BOL BUZZ Mar 8, 2022
- News report by Natasha Rehman On YouTube Oct 19, 2021 Metro Time News
- Documentary
- Did Ayesha Akram really get exposed?, DBTV Aug 28, 2021
- Gender-based Violence ~ Soch Videos on YouTube Premiered 2 September 2021
- Minar-e-Pakistan incident: Victim Blaming Continues How to end misogyny in Pakistan? Naya Daur TV
- News Wise - 2nd Sep 2021 Why social opinion on Minar Pakistan incident is divided? Dawn News
- PML-N leader Atta Tarar talks to media - SAMAA TV - Declaring emergency relating sexual crimes in Punjab Pakistan, YouTube, 19 June 2022
- Pakistan: Punjab declares 'emergency' after rise in rape cases, Khaleej Times, 22 Jun 2022
- ‘New laws to be introduced to curb rape cases’, Dawn, June 20, 2022
- Interviews of Ayesha Akram
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Location
Imported from Talk:Minar-e-Pakistan Just for record: While one user admitting notability of incidence raised a query on my user talk page whether incidence happened @ Minar-e-Pakistan or adjacent Greater Iqbal Park? I replied as below:
Thanks for discussing.
- Dawn news report: In the first information report (FIR) registered at the Lorry Adda police station, a copy of which is available with Dawn.com, the complainant stated that she, along with six companions, were filming a video near Minar-e-Pakistan on Independence Day when around 300 to 400 people "attacked us"....She said that she and her companions made a lot of effort to escape from the crowd. Observing the situation, the park's security guard opened the gate to the enclosure around Minar-e-Pakistan, the FIR quotes her as saying..."However, the crowd was huge and people were scaling the enclosure and coming towards us..
- Samaa.tv report is more specific: A still from the video of the mob that attacked the woman on August 14, 2021 at Greater Iqbal Park and Minar-e-Pakistan....The incident took place on the public holiday Saturday at the Greater Iqbal Park at the Minar-e-Pakistan monument. The victim said that she was at the Minar-e-Pakistan with her friends to make a video for her YouTube channel when suddenly more than 300 to 400 men attacked them. The victim said when she and her friends tried to get away from the crowd, the guards at the Minar opened the gate of the fence and they went inside..The men jumped over the fence and surged towards us and started...
- Even Prime Minister of Pakistan Imran Khan referred incidence in his speech as Minar-e-Pakistan incidence.
- It is almost a two hour thing so more details will emerge as police investigation and court cases move forward. Again Pakistan does have track record of victim blaming and also window dressing media but same time over a period of time scholarly academic books also keep coming up and visible written and street activism from women's movements and civil society. so let us see how things move forward and kind of references keep becoming available.
- Pl. do suggest. Thanks
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Edit dif 1104699210
Edit dif 1104699210 by User:USaamo needs dispute resolution.
Edit dif 1104699210 with misleading summary, seems to delete sourced and important content; same time adds content in WP:Wikivoice giving credence to victim blaming conspiracy theory against a female victim, even though medico-legal examination report clearly supports female victim's case, hence such content changes breach WP:SUSPECT Wikipedia conventions. I shall elaborate both the issues in separate sub sections below.
Creation and addition of conspiracy theories seemingly in an efforts to mislead and censor against victim, seem to be result of psychological process of I just don't like it (denial) since incidence happened in precincts of a national monument on national independence day.
- Misleading summary of edit dif: ".. Added later developments, removed the rest from lede as it is covered below .."
Backbround
- ".. When people look toward you (Wikipedia), should you (Wikipedia) look other way? .."
- Pakistan's Punjab's state government ministers officially stated that state of sexual harassment in their state is an emergency situation. (This is official the state govt position there we are not overstating, See: Dawn (newspaper) Dt. June 20, 2022: ".. LAHORE: Punjab will introduce stricter laws and declare an ‘emergency’ to curb the rising trend of rape cases. .."[1] ).
- Similar sexual harassment crimes in public gatherings have happened previously and news reports say this year 2022 August 14, in spite of large police presence police had to baton charge miscreants and arrested around 65 of them. (Various references like 1, 2 are already noted on this talk page.)
- This article is about 2021 incidence, this years repetition of similar incidence in same area has not been noted by international media as much of last year, besides this year news not covered beyond Punjab Pakistan hence we have not included 2022 information. Still, this is first time since this article creation views for this article were more than general article of Minar-e-Pakistan, (IMHO) most probably to find information on this year's incidence.
- The Minar e Pakistan incidence has been referred to by Pakistan's President itself more than once in clear terms that whatever how so ever a woman is in public space other men do not get any right to touch her and that is even un–Islamic.
Deletion
Deleted content: ".. According to a medico-legal examination, the victim was found to have dozens of bruises and scratches on her body including her chest, waist, legs, and elbow, plus inflammation on the neck and hands.[2][3] The silence of the large group of spectators present, the inadequate response of security guards during the event, and the delayed police response were criticised.[4][5][6] .."
a) Important parts of the content body are to be included in lede and not vice versa hence edit summary is misleading one.
b) When victim is under huge pressure of victim blaming 'medico-legal examination' is core supportive factor and needs to find place in article lede itself.
c) Failure in attending untoward incidence at a national monument that too on national independence day whatever the nature of incidence might be is glaring security flaw and needs to find mention in the lede itself.
Addition
".. The case later turned out to be a pre-planned incident for getting fame and extortion money during police investigation.[7] Audiotapes emerged of victim and her associate Rambo about the planning which later on both blamed one another for blackmailing.[8][9] .."
d) Above accusations are improper and unfair defamatory against female victim. Pakistan's legal culture itself allows accused to settle criminal legal cases against monitory benefit to victim. When men benefit in huge number of cases in rampant honor crime against women then men are not blamed but women are and credence WP:undue weightage to such conspiracy theory is cause of concern.
e) Above accusations still not part of official charge sheet against the female victim. Case is still in the court likely to be heard some time in coming couple of months. before giving credence to conspiracy theory IMHO respected editors wait for court rulings.
f) As I have gone through other article discussions even accused names are not supposed to be mentioned until charge sheet is filed. IMHO It is against Wikipedia WP:SUSPECT and conventions.
g) Following sentence on later developments as per police investigation is already noted in the section Police investigation without defaming the accused or giving credence to conspiracy theory yet not acknowledged by any court of law.
- This balanced sentence taking care of Wikipedia policies is already there: ".. On the basis of a supplementary statement made by Akram, police also arrested some of her associates to investigate allegations of blackmailing. .." [10]
I do not see need for any unfair, and WP policies wise unwarranted changes until court hears the matter and gives it's judgement.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
USaamo's re
Dear Bookku, I hope you know me as we have previously co-operated over feminism related articles in Pakistan. We do have some differences as well in the same space but I admire you for your work and have seen your keen interest in highlighting these incidents happening in Pakistan on Wikipedia every now and then.
This is all unnecessary rant and you gave my edit wrong impression, you could have simply raised your points with me about the content removal as I am ready to co-operate with you over it. Moving forward towards this chargesheet that you levelled against me here;
- You have wrongfully blamed me for victim blaming as I haven't denied or removed her medico-legal report and neither do I denied the happening of the harrassment incident. I just pointed out to the important twist in the case and the intention and motive which was later revealed.
- I recently came across this article found it undue news item but even if it got a place here, I was amazed to see this long article mentioning quite some details but there was no mention of this important twist in the case.
- This article has no mention of their audio tapes, video statements and police investigation and position taken by both the parties on social media for their case which revealed the other side of story. So I just added that as per WP:NPOV and it's well sourced to have inclusion here.
- All this clearly seems to be a case of your intellectual bias for whatever the reasons. You yourself have acknowledged your POV regarding this subject on your talkpage previously.
- My edit summary is fully justified, you can argue my content removal is wrong but I haven't misled in my edit summary and it's very much clear from it what my edit is about.
So in the light of this the only point that needs to be discussed here is the removal of those two lines from lede for which I'm ready to co-operate as this article needs alot of improvements to be made encyclopedic. USaamo (t@lk) 20:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Bookku: Try sorting your differences with USaamo first and then you may ask for third parties input, per WP:SEEKHELP. Cheers! Thinker78 (talk) 20:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Thinker78 I will continue to engage in discussion with them. I feel there is violation of WP:BLP guidelines in the contentious content addition mentioned above, which is usually supposed to be reverted earliest, if I am not wrong per WP:onus and WP:SUSPECT. Usually I work in non BLP segment so I am not that well versed hence I sought early inputs from editors who work in BLP CRIME. Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 02:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- @USaamo At the outset I have contested your changes and there is nothing personal about it. I am open about my pro progressive and women's rights POV and my pro women writings are certainly not limited to Pakistan only. Said that, let us come to the topic, I will prefer to discuss in above relevant subsections if you do not mind. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
Reflist-talk
References
- ^ https://www.dawn.com/news/1695675/new-laws-to-be-introduced-to-curb-rape-cases
- ^ "Medical report of Ayesha Akram reveals severe bruises on victim's body". MM News TV. 20 August 2021. Retrieved 13 October 2021.
- ^ "Minar-e-Pakistan incident: Victim's medico-legal assessment completed | Dunya News". video.dunyanews.tv. 20 August 2021. Archived from the original on August 20, 2021. Retrieved 13 October 2021.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: unfit URL (link) - ^ Arjio, Nazeer (25 August 2021). "Pakistan Needs To Devise A Strategy Against Widespread Sexual Terrorism". The Friday Times – Naya Daur. Archived from the original on 25 August 2021. Retrieved 18 September 2021.
- ^ Hyat, Kamila (27 August 2021). "The world of women". www.thenews.com.pk. Archived from the original on 27 August 2021. Retrieved 19 September 2021.
- ^ "Outrage in Pakistan after hundreds of men crowd female TikToker, tearing her clothes". The Independent. 19 August 2021. Retrieved 19 September 2021.
- ^ Desk, News (2021-08-19). "Investigation Reveals Ayesha Akram Planned Minar E Pakistan Incident As A Publicity Stunt With Her Partner Rambo". The Pakistan Frontier. Retrieved 2022-08-16.
{{cite web}}
:|first=
has generic name (help) - ^ "Minar-e-Pakistan incident: Tiktoker Rambo claims Ayesha Akram wanted to extort money from suspects". Geo.tv. 2021-10-09. Retrieved 2022-08-16.
- ^ "Minar-e-Pakistan incident: New audio tape exposes 'extortion plan' of Ayesha Akram and Rambo". Daily Pakistan Global. 2021-10-11. Retrieved 2022-08-16.
- ^ https://www.dawn.com/news/1650853