Category:Autism quackery – The result was overturn and relist. There is a strong consensus that this was an improper deletion for three reasons: BrownHairedGirl was by her own admission an involved admin, having participated in the CfD discussion; the cited CSD criteria (G4 and G10) did not unambiguously apply; speedy deletion is reserved for a limited range of uncontroversial deletions and therefore should not be used while a contested discussion is ongoing. – Joe (talk) 11:52, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
An admin stated their objected closure in CfD (diff). Their statement is I object to this close on the grounds of WP:INVOLVED and may take this matter to arbitration if informal discussions to reverse it are unsuccessful. JehochmanTalk 08:44, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
I cannot decide what to do next. So I post here to request other people comment. See also closer talk page Hhkohh (talk) 09:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the relevant section, which prompted my actions. I have added bolding to the most relevant section.
The category will therefore be renamed Category:Advocates of pseudoscience (as of May 23, categories may be renamed through a page move, and this will be implemented once that option becomes available). Furthermore, this category will only serve as a holding category for subcategories (and should be tagged with {{container category}}). This category therefore should be empty as to articles, and should contain only subcategories such as Category:Alchemists and Category:Phrenologists, on the condition that reliable sources generally classify the subcategorized field itself as a pseudoscience. The rename makes the category more accurate (all astrologers advocate in some sense for a pseudoscience, but not all are pseduoscientists as many employ pure mysticism), while the depopulation largely eliminates the BLP problem (people do not self-identify as pseduoscientists, but do self-identify as crytozoologists). Because of this subcategorization, the "pseudoscientist" category will not appear on the articles of subjects, and therefore will not be detrimental to article subjects who might dispute that categorization.
It is regrettable that 4 years later, the BLP and neutrality principles which were asserted then on the basis of such substantive discussion are apparently controversial among some editors.
In particular, the term "quack" is significantly more derogatory than than "pseudoscientist". The OED definition of "quack" explicitly ties it to dishonesty, which is not necessarily the case with pseudoscience (which may be based on ignorance or folly).
There are many forms of words which can be used to describe those who advocate medical treatments which fall outside the current consensus, or which have been disproven. The use of attack labels such as the word "quack" is particularly problematic in categories, because categories appear at the bottom of articles without any qualification or attribution, as required per WP:WEIGHT.
WP:BLP and WP:NPOV are core policies on en.Wikipedia. We should not have to endless relitigate their application to this field, when the community has already had such an extensive discussion about it. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:18, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think this warrants going to ANI, or further, as clear action by an INVOLVED admin. I see no reason to choose to ignore INVOLVED because we have no shortage of other admins to do so, there was no rush and no evident delay in getting it closed. Admins do not get to ignore policies on their whim like this, we have INVOLVED for a reason. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn (I prefer re-open) and let some other admin close it. We have plenty of admins. No need for an admin who was heavily involved in the discussion to close the discussion. Also, no need for speedy process here. Baby went out with the bath water. The category contained multiple non-BLP articles. Also, the discussion consensus was to rename, not to delete. JehochmanTalk 10:02, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Several of those non-BLP articles related to small organisations. WP:BLPGROUP notes the policy does not generally apply to groups, BUT that A harmful statement about a small group or organization comes closer to being a BLP problem than a similar statement about a larger group; and when the group is very small, it may be impossible to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group.
The category as it stood was a blatant attack category, per WP:G10, which says Examples of "attack pages" may include libel, legal threats, material intended purely to harass or intimidate a person or biographical material about a living person that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced. These pages should be speedily deleted when there is no neutral version in the page history to revert to.
The category's creator explicitly labelled the category as unevidenced (often harmful) quack treatments. In the CFD discusison, the creator described the category as an opinionated value judgment[1], and also explicitly state their desire to use to attach the label "quackery" to an identifed individual.[2] So the attacking intent seems very clear: to label those involved as causing harm, and as dishonest.
I urge editors to think carefully about both the specific consequences of endorsing attacking categories in this field, and the consequences of the wider precedent which would be set by tolerating blatant attack categories such as this. Note that other attack categories relating to science such as Category:Climate change deniers have been deleted (that one at WP:CFD 2015 Oct 16).
I know that some editors have very strong views on these matters, and sincerely believe that they have a responsibility to warn readers against some treatments. However the same applies to many areas of public controversy. As an NPOV encyclopedia, it is not Wikipedia's role to promote disparaging terminology for topics where editors have strong feelings. We do not, for example, categorise people as Category:Terrorists, and there is no reason to categorise in this field by opinionated value judgment. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 11:10, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're trying to explain your breach of INVOLVED by claiming that it was really important for the category to go. That is not the issue here.Andy Dingley (talk) 12:30, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From Carlos the Jackal: Carlos the Jackal, is a Venezuelan terrorist
So yes, we do identify BLP subjects as terrorists, rightly so, and we also identify Jenny McCarthy as an anti-vaccine activist. We can (and the CfD does) discuss what the phrasing for this should be – but that's still a long way from a single-handed CSD against consensus. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From Carlos the Jackal: Carlos the Jackal, is a Venezuelan terrorist
So yes, we do identify BLP subjects as terrorists, rightly so, and we also identify Jenny McCarthy as an anti-vaccine activist. We can (and the CfD does) discuss what the phrasing for this should be – but that's still a long way from a single-handed CSD against consensus. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy Dingley, it is sad to see that you dismiss BLP and NPOV as "excuses".
Your example misunderstands the issue, which is the use of a non-neutral category. Carlos the Jackal is not in any category containing the word "terror/terrorism/terrorist". The use of a stigmatising word in body text is a different issue, where WP:WEIGHT applies; the term can be attributed, referenced and qualified, and alternative labels also given due weight. Per WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 27#Category:Terrorists: we do not place individuals in Category:Terrorists. I urge you to read the close of that discussion, and also WP:COP#General_considerations and WP:BLPCAT.
Note that the labelling of Carlos the Jackal as "terrorist" even in body text would not be permitted by Reuters[3], and is at least problematised by the BBC.[4] --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Autism Research Institute is also in Category:Alternative medicine organizations and Rope worms is also in Category:Pseudoscience so it is not super obvious to what extent BLP should play a role in categorisation. I think this discussion really is about where we should draw the line with respect to BLP issues and the outcome of that discussion is uncertain. But it is not up to WP:DRV to develop a view in this discussion so I would rather favour reopening the CfD discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Category creator's response As the category's creator I was a bit disappointed to see that Autism:Quackery had been deleted (incidentally I was unaware of the previous 2014 discussion about Pseudoscientists) and wanted to thank @Jehochman: for re-opening the discussion / objecting. My own objection differs somewhat (I'm neutral about who closes it). Mine's that I really, strongly, think that - given the increase in popularity of unevidenced (and potentially harmful) autism treatments - a specific category that covers both autism and 'potentially harmful interventions or ideas' is helpful for knitting those otherwise disparate pages together. Is it possible to have a category that can only be used for 'things' or beliefs, and not for people? I think the main objection in its pejorative use was that it was used to categorise people, such as Jenny McCarthy (in fact I added that category to her page, so my fault) though by doing so I had no intention of 'attacking' her, it was simply that she is a promoter of unevidenced ideas relating to autism (already explicitly noted in her article). I'm aware of the irony here but I really don't think it's particularly fair to categorise me as having an 'attacking intent', but I realise outcome and intention can appear the same even when unintended. Anyway... I don't think 'quackery' or 'pseudoscience' is especially pejorative if applied to CEASE therapy or Rope worms (the references to the self-published authors can be removed, and couldn't the category can be removed and 'disallowed' for the Autism Research Institute?), as others have also commented. It does feel a bit baby / bathwater. Is there an option that restricts how a category can be used, eg 'this category may not be applied to living persons'? P.S. I didn't get a notification that the discussion had moved here, I just happened to spot it while looking glumly at the blue-background text on the CfD page. I may be slow to respond as I'm out for most of the rest of the day. Thanks :) JoBrodie (talk) 12:18, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JoBrodie the category to which you added McCarthy was specifically described by you as a category for unevidenced (often harmful) quack treatments. It seems to me to be quite bizarre to claim that attaching the label "unevidenced", "harmful" and "quack" to a person is anything other an attack.
This argument is a red herring. If there is good sourcing we will write and categorize subjects negatively. If I call somebody a murderer or thief, that would be extremely slanderous, unless it’s true. We have Category:Murderers and Category:Thieves. We can make a category for those promoting unscientific automatism treatments. The title needs to be NPOV and anybody included has to have a solid reference. We fix NPOV violations by editing, not by mass deletion. JehochmanTalk 13:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, please stop flooding the discussion with walls of text. JehochmanTalk 13:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So why did you ignore the CfD, where there was at least some support for a rename, and instead choose to delete this altogether and so precipitously? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see nothing in policy which supports (let alone requires) the retention of a blatant attack page until the point at which it may be tweaked to be less attacking. Can you identify anything?
Policy at WP:G10 and at WP:VLP#Attack_pages is to revert to a pre-existing neutral version or delete. There was no previous neutral version of the category page, and in the case of a category with a title designed to attack, reverting the category page would not solve the problem.
If editors wish to create a neutrally-framed category or categories, it would contain a different set of pages. There might be some overlap, or maybe a lot of overlap, but there is no need to use the attack page as a starting point for a neutral approach. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:25, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn, this category is not a recreation of a category deleted per an XFD discussion and so is ineligible for G4. We should never interpret XFD results as broadly as was urged here to justify speedy deletion, where it is merely the same "type" of category, as the closer describes it above. The closer's interpretation would also justify speedy deleting Category:Pseudoscience because we had deleted Category:Pseudoscientists, or Category:Terrorism because we had deleted Category:Terrorists, examples that should hopefully make it clear that a category for individuals raises different issues than a topical category such that a judgment on one is not the same as a judgment on the other. This is also why the G10 and BLP claims fail, and I see nothing in policy that empowers admins to make those kinds of determinations outside of a demonstrated consensus on that particular category. postdlf (talk) 14:25, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Similar to RoySmith's comment below, I'm not voicing any opinion on what the close should be either, beyond that it should not be how it is presently closed. postdlf (talk) 21:53, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Void close and trout. BrownHairedGirl is clearly WP:INVOLVED due to participation at the CfD. Back out the close and leave it for some uninvolved admin to re-close. -- RoySmith(talk) 15:57, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PS, I'm not advocating an overturn to any particular outcome. CfD has its own nuanced policies and customs; we should leave it somebody who is familiar with those to handle the actual re-close. Our job here is just to observe that the current close was out of process. -- RoySmith(talk) 16:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse for what I think are obvious reasons: WP:G10. I can't believe a group of adults actually seriously discussed keeping a category called "______ Quackery". That is an obvious "attack category"–it's not even a close call. Unless you're talking about ducks or geese, calling anyone or anything a "quack" or "quackery" is a blatant insult and thus a personal attack. This is an encyclopedia, it should be encyclopedic in tone, meaning professional and neutral. "Quackery" is not professional or neutral. That the creator of this category then went to add a BLP to it strains my ability to assume good faith. It seems like we wanted to officially call Jenny a quack, and while she might be one, that is not for an encyclopedia to do. I have issues with "pseudoscience" as a similarly-loaded term. I don't see the reason to sort all of human knowledge into two categories: science and fiction. First of all, let's step back and realize that a lot of things that were once considered "quackery" are now considered "science," and vice versa. Secondly, we are not here to right great wrongs. Thirdly, while I personally can live with a container category "pseudoscience" (but not a "pseudoscientist" category, for the same reason "terrorism" is ok but not "terrorist"), there comes a point where something is such an obviously bad idea or a such an obvious attack that speedily deleting it is the right move (as opposed to a discussion about how to move it/change it/otherwise clean it up). The "murderer" analogy is a bad one because being a murderer involves being convicted of murder, whereas there is no formal legal process for labelling one a "quack" (or a "pseudoscientist"). This was a bold admin action and I'm no fan of supervotes, but in this case, I think a very experienced editor made the right call and I support it. Levivich (talk) 18:44, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a strawman argument. The discussion was not going to keep the original category name. The discussion consensus was converging on a rename to something like "Autism pseudoscience" when an involved admin decided to substitute her opinion for everybody else's. We all seem to agree that "quackery" is an unencyclopedic, unacceptable term. Nobody is still advocating to use that word. JehochmanTalk 21:33, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agreed - I'm not holding out for the retention of the term quackery, and I agree that the category should not be used on living people. If the current category remains wiped I'd hope that a separate Category:Unscientific autism treatments or Category:Unsubstantiated autism treatments category could still have potential value for non-BLP pages at least. Unscientific advice and treatments for autism are quite widespread and harmful, see the findings in a report presented at UK's Parliament earlier last year. Recommending bleach enemas (or drinking bleach) to cure autism, or that people should avoid MMR vaccination to prevent autism, or homeopathy to 'detox' children from their vaccinations to reverse autism are things that I don't think could ever be supported by science. I can't check the edit history of Category:Quacks so don't know how long that label was in use, or whether just one person was adding people to it (I never used it myself) but as of yesterday there were 59 people listed there, many alive. Against that backdrop it didn't seem particularly un-WP-ish to tag JMcC as someone who promotes some pseudoscientific views about autism but happy to accept that we were all wrong to have done so. (Incidentally there are currently six people listed as Persons accused of quackery#Living on the Quackery page). JoBrodie (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich – See Wikipedia:Deletion review#Purpose. That's not the purpose of DRV. The grounds for DRV here are (mostly) on the basis of INVOLVED, also for ignoring what looked like a clear consensus otherwise, and they're both independent of whether the answer was "right" or "wrong". Andy Dingley (talk) 22:10, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah OK, sorry - I wasn't sure where to add it as I don't think I'm meant to edit the original discussion page now JoBrodie (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Purpose #2 of delrev is if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed, and I'm arguing above that it was not done outside of the criteria and should not be otherwise disputed. As to WP:Involved: If the issue is framed as "did the closer post in the discussion?" then the outcome will be fixed: obviously the closer posted in the discussion. That doesn't mean the closer is necessarily involved. Exceptions exist for "straightforward cases" and "purely in an administrative role". (Not to mention WP:IAR.) The closer's posts in the discussion were all about the same G4 and G10 issues. I see a correct application of those principles here, and I don't mind that the closer tried to point this out in the discussion before speedily deleting. With the benefit of hindsight, I would have preferred if the closer had just speedily deleted it right away without posting in the discussion, taking a purely and unquestionably administrative action, but that's just Monday-morning quarterbacking on my part (I'm super good at that). There is a reason to delete it rather than rename it: to also delete, rather then preserve, the history of it starting as "___ Quackery" (and I think the categorization of anyone or any organization, but especially BLPs, under that category should be revdel'd). If everyone agrees "Autism Quackery" was a bad name, let's close this delrev, leave it deleted, and just start a new category, "unsubstantiated" or "nonscientific" or whatever neutral, supported-by-RS term editors want to use. Levivich (talk) 01:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just to throw this into the mix too, we also have Category:Health fraud (and it's already being re-added to some of these articles). Whatever finally happens, it may involve that equally. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
'Fraud' seems a wee bit harsh though? Also often implies intentional wrongdoing rather than being mistaken. Hmm, not sure. JoBrodie (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For what it’s worth, I think “pseudoscientific” is a useful term. There are scientific “medical” treatments, some of which may be “experimental” (unproven but having a plausible theory how they might work). Everything else is “Alternative medicine”, a whitewash term that tries to conflate pseudo-medicine with medicine. Alternative medicine is like the Trump spokeswoman who said “alternative facts”. I don’t think we should use the charlatains’ preferred terminology. There really needs to be a full discussion of what to call these categories. JehochmanTalk 23:30, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
“Alternative medicine”, a whitewash term ... charlatains.
Not much NPOV in there.
This enthusiasm for pejorative labels wouldn't be entertained in other topic areas. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:10, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relist per WP:INVOLVED, on purely procedural terms, and get an experienced closer to re-close this one. SportingFlyerT·C 07:06, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist It is called "Categories for discussion", rather than deletion, and for some time into the discussion nobody at all expressed a view towards deletion. However strong might have been the case for early deletion, the discussion proved it was not one of the "most obvious cases" as required for WP:CSD deletion – even the deleting admin suggested a rename might have been suitable. Even if a speedy had been "most obvious", it was unbecoming for a (strong) discussion participant to have taken an immediate unilateral decision for deletion. (Of course, as named, the category was no good at all.) Thincat (talk) 09:43, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist If it had been closed before any comments were made about this category other than the nom, then I could accept a G4 claim. However, consensus can change, and this discussion clearly indicated that there are reasonable grounds for saying it did in this case. As to the use of the word "quackery", there can be no doubt that the responses show that the users noticed this word and responded with something along the lines of "good category, bad name". עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 13:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A number of procedural issues here. A) It's almost always a bad idea to speedy something that is under discussion at XfD. B) WP:INVOLVED applies. C) The speedy criteria here is a stretch--this isn't the same category. B and C are larger issues than A, but yeah, this is a bad call. I understand the sense that WP:BLP applied and therefore a rush was needed, but overall a really bad idea. overturn and relistHobit (talk) 15:57, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually WP:INVOLVED would be if I as original CFDer were attempting to close it. ;) Trying to link it to a previous discussion wouldn't really mean involved. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Undeleting this category just to rename it is process wonkery. Just make the new category and populate it appropriately. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:54, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That’s fine but a recreating deleted content is ordinarily improper and can result in speedy deletion. We need clarity that it’s ok to creat or rename with a better name. I’ll leave it to the regulars here to determine what’s best. JehochmanTalk 19:56, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and reopen (1) CSD is reserved for completely non-controversial deletions. The fact that several views had already been expressed during the discussion should be an immediate disqualification for any speedy process. (2) We don't need potentially controversial debates being closed by an admin who had already made three contributions to the discussion. We might be short of admins, but we're not that short. --RexxS (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. The speedy deletion was a bold move, but afaics not incorrect and not outside the discretion we should allow admins. The closure of the CFD was just an administrative act following the CSD and was well explained. If the CFD is reopened/relisted a list of the category's contents should be provided (rather than tagging the articles with a category that would probably later be deleted/renamed). DexDor(talk) 06:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Disagree with the G4, it is not a close enough match, and for that reason alone the close must be amended. Undecided about G10. It looks bad, but I don’t think BLP applies to the category per se, as opposed to the inclusion of living persons. WP:BLP would be limited to justification of depopulating of living persons. Was the “delete” close required to auto depopulate very large numbers of living persons from the category. Also against G10 is the fact that multiple respectable editors had participated without !voting “delete”. The INVOLVED is a very bad look and I don’t think the G10 close was justified. This is not to say that I support the existence of the category, and I read the discussion as heading to a consensus to rename. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:36, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Autism quackery category had been applied (by me) to two living people: Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield (the latter had separately already been added to a 'Quacks' category, that category also now deleted). I rather wish I'd not bothered applying the category to living people which seems to be what has triggered this discussion! An Autism pseudoscience category would help to tie together a range of concepts including unevidenced treatments (eg CEASE therapy, theories (eg the mistaken idea that vaccination causes autism) and side-effects of treatment (eg Rope worms - an artefact from bleach enemas). Another possibility is Unevidenced treatments for autism, though that mightn't be so obvious for the MMR vaccine controversy, or rope worms, as neither are 'treatments' as such. Other categories already available don't necessarily focus on autism and it seems that there are enough problematic autism-specific interventions to warrant a separate and specific category (the reason why I created the contested category in the first place). That'll learn me ;) JoBrodie (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn for another admin to re-close. That and debate allows for a finding of either "delete" or "rename", and "delete" would be a reasonable finding for an uninvolved admin to make. But it's not enough to be right -- you also have to be impartial. Experience with BHG's closes tells me she is able to separate her own view from her determination of consensus and I therefore assume that she was genuinely impartial when she made her close. But impartiality isn't just about the closer's state of mind when they close the debate -- it's about your fellow Wikipedians being confident in you. Everyone has to be able to see you're impartial.—S MarshallT/C 23:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relist The speedy deletion was probably just to the safe side of the line for the limits of admin discretion, and the overall close was not unreasonable but I decline to endorse where, as here, there is a reasonable, good faith argument that the closer was INVOLVED. I'm a great believer in process is important and the proper outcome is for a disinterested editor to close this discussion. XymmaxSo let it be writtenSo let it be done 18:54, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn/relist There was no clear consensus to delete. The closer was involved, the CSD rationale was over-stretched. An uninvolved admin should close this.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 19:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.