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:::: Hoping for? The most I'd ever ''hope'' for from WP is that the revenge deletions and the abuse remain slower than I can type responses to - I'm realistic. As this article is said to have been substantially identical to that deleted, then at least not much has been wasted. I couldn't describe that AfD as "firm consensus" though, when the nominations were "too many reasons" and "certainly not notable" and the closer didn't even bother giving a reason. |
:::: Hoping for? The most I'd ever ''hope'' for from WP is that the revenge deletions and the abuse remain slower than I can type responses to - I'm realistic. As this article is said to have been substantially identical to that deleted, then at least not much has been wasted. I couldn't describe that AfD as "firm consensus" though, when the nominations were "too many reasons" and "certainly not notable" and the closer didn't even bother giving a reason. |
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:::: I would hope that admins ''would'' use a tag-and-bag approach to such things, but it's pretty rare. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 03:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC) |
:::: I would hope that admins ''would'' use a tag-and-bag approach to such things, but it's pretty rare. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 03:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC) |
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: Didn't I add a deletion tag to that page before it was deleted? [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 20:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:08, 30 December 2019
Unused personal photos
Is there a reason en.wiki doesn't have a SD file criteria for unused personal photos, as F10 on Commons? Has this been proposed before? GMGtalk 02:50, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- No idea if it's been proposed before, but I'm all for it. creffett (talk) 02:52, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Looking into it, I guess it's only been a criteria on Commons since July 2018. I've just gotten used to it. But something like this guy seems to mostly a cross wiki spammer, and these images are entirely useless. GMGtalk 02:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- I would support this; it would certainly help make a dent in Category:Wikipedia orphaned files. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Looking into it, I guess it's only been a criteria on Commons since July 2018. I've just gotten used to it. But something like this guy seems to mostly a cross wiki spammer, and these images are entirely useless. GMGtalk 02:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Would support, under the condition that it must be given a grace period (seven days?) to be used before it's deleted. Still want to keep used personal photos for user pages. UnnamedUser (open talk page) 03:38, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- We already have file PROD which has a seven day wait. The whole point of this would be to expedite that specifically for unused personal photos. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- If FilePROD can handle those images just fine, why create a new criterion to basically do the same but only for a small subsection of those files? If they main problem is files uploaded by users for webhosting purposes, how about instead we expand U5 to encompass images uploaded to be solely used on pages that are eligible for U5 deletion and that serve no other encyclopedic purpose? Kind of like G8 in that regard. Regards SoWhy 09:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: I'd change that slightly to something like "Files uploaded for use on a page that has been speedily deleted and which serve no other useful purpose.". That changes the order slightly to mean that the page has to be deleted before the image, which avoids the potential for images to be deleted even though the page is deemed not to be problematic (if the image is independently problematic than an existing speedy criterion or FFD can deal with it). It also brings into scope images that were on pages deleted for other reasons (G5, G7, U1 and U3 come to mind as possibilities). All this is though assuming there is a problem PROD cannot deal with (I don't know). Thryduulf (talk) 12:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think that would be too vague. "Other useful purpose" is not an objective criterion by any stretch and someone might use it to just delete everything in despite the fact that many of those files might be useful in the future (and oftentimes should probably be transferred to Commons to allow more people to see them). It would also apply to files that were uploaded for pages that were deleted for belonging on another project or reasons of too soon or or or. Point is, there are too many reasons why an image might become orphaned and the only objective criterion I can think of is the one U5 (and F10 on Commons) use, i.e. files uploaded by users who mistake Wikipedia for a webhost. Regards SoWhy 12:45, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: I'd change that slightly to something like "Files uploaded for use on a page that has been speedily deleted and which serve no other useful purpose.". That changes the order slightly to mean that the page has to be deleted before the image, which avoids the potential for images to be deleted even though the page is deemed not to be problematic (if the image is independently problematic than an existing speedy criterion or FFD can deal with it). It also brings into scope images that were on pages deleted for other reasons (G5, G7, U1 and U3 come to mind as possibilities). All this is though assuming there is a problem PROD cannot deal with (I don't know). Thryduulf (talk) 12:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- If FilePROD can handle those images just fine, why create a new criterion to basically do the same but only for a small subsection of those files? If they main problem is files uploaded by users for webhosting purposes, how about instead we expand U5 to encompass images uploaded to be solely used on pages that are eligible for U5 deletion and that serve no other encyclopedic purpose? Kind of like G8 in that regard. Regards SoWhy 09:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- I can't conceive of any justification for new time-delayed file speedy deletion criteria, between fileprod and files being restorable for something like fourteen years now - most of the reason the current F-series criteria have the delay is because they were written before then. —Cryptic 03:10, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- We already have file PROD which has a seven day wait. The whole point of this would be to expedite that specifically for unused personal photos. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- I support this in principle, but the text needs to be absolutely unambiguous. SportingFlyer T·C 13:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Is there an Engvar issue here? To me (British) a "personal photo" might be merely a photo I possess (conceivably not even of a person) as well as meaning a photo of me or of some other person (presumably a photo I have taken). Thincat (talk) 21:38, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'm American, and interpret "personal photo" the same way you do. "Unused photo of a person or persons" eliminates the ambiguity. —Cryptic 03:07, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- strongly oppose As written this is much too broad, and may catch things that are potentially useful. For example, suppose someone uploads a photo indented to go in the info box of an articel which is then deleted for g11, or G12. A revised version may be created which is not a copyvio and is NPOV, where the image could be properly used. Speedy deletion does not translate into "No article by this title can ever be created". Maybe if you limit it to images usable only on an article that has been salted. But "usable only on" seems a rather subjective judgement for a CSD. Also, i would like to see some figures on how often this is occurring and being deleted by discussion. Is there truly a need for such a new CSD? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 04:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I think that this will be helpful as it will aid in clearing out Category:Wikipedia orphaned files. Personal images won't have much of a use on Wikipedia and it is pointless to keep personal images that are orphaned. There are plenty of orphaned personal and unencyclopedic images that have been deleted through WP:PROD and a big list is at User:Pkbwcgs/PROD log. There are plenty I nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2018 April 21. Based on my record of nominating personal and unencyclopedic images, this new criterion is uncontestable because all the files were deleted, frequent because there are many personal and unencyclopedic images that were deleted and nonredundant because these files wouldn't meet another already-existing deletion criterion. However, this criterion should only apply to unused personal images. Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:47, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Proposal: Expanding G8
How about modifying G8 like this:
G8. Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page
Examples include:
- [...]
- Files uploaded for exclusive use on a deleted page and that have no other conceivable encyclopedic purpose (e.g. self portraits of users whose user pages where deleted via U5)
[...]
After all, Commons' F10 is more like our U5, so stuff uploaded for use on such deleted pages "depends" on these pages in the same way as the other cases of G8 do. Regards SoWhy 20:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Not G8 please. It has nothing to do with the other items in G8 except for G8's overbroad summary. What this really is is the (non-bot-mediated, fairly-rarely-invoked) second half of F5 - "immediately if the image's only use was on a deleted article and it is very unlikely to have any use on any other valid article" - minus the non-free restriction. —Cryptic 02:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- And minus the article part. I proposed expanding G8 because of it's similar (due to the "dependent on" part). Expanding F5 would not work, so either we create a new G15 or F12 or we add it to criteria that are likely to have accompanying uploads, such as G11 or U5. I'm not set on changing G8 but I would argue that any such expansion or new criterion has to make sure the use is limited to the most obvious cases (like the ones GMG mentions above) so as to not have all orphaned images be subject to deletion. Regards SoWhy 16:12, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Article" doesn't currently carry much meaning in F5 - it's implicit for nonfree files, which can't be validly used in nonarticles. (The exceptions are very narrow, and not relevant.) —Cryptic 15:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- And minus the article part. I proposed expanding G8 because of it's similar (due to the "dependent on" part). Expanding F5 would not work, so either we create a new G15 or F12 or we add it to criteria that are likely to have accompanying uploads, such as G11 or U5. I'm not set on changing G8 but I would argue that any such expansion or new criterion has to make sure the use is limited to the most obvious cases (like the ones GMG mentions above) so as to not have all orphaned images be subject to deletion. Regards SoWhy 16:12, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as per Cryptic. Overloading CSDs to to multiple different things is generally a bad idea. G8 currently deals with pages that are "dependent" in a very clear, obvious, and non-metaphorical way: mostly talk pages of deleted pages, less often archive pages of deleted pages, or the like. This would be stretching "dependent" much too far, IMO. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 04:12, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I strongly suspect this would be used as a generic "unencyclopedic image" criterion on images where the deleting admin doesn't think they have any encyclopedic use. I also agree with the above that it doesn't fit well with the rest of G8. If we want to create a CSD for unused personal files then it should be a separate criterion and more narrowly worded. Hut 8.5 07:46, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Hut 8.5 and DES. Speedy deletion criteria need to be kept as simple and as narrow as possible to reduce the chance of misuse (accidental or otherwise). Expanding G8 in this manner weakens one of the better worded criteria in this regard. Thryduulf (talk) 10:27, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Hut 8.5. Not in G8, maybe a new separate criterion for this? -- CptViraj (📧) 10:34, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support speedy deletion of an image, if all the following are true:
- (a) the image has only ever been used on the page deleted under CSD#U5;
- (b) the image was uploaded by the user whose userpage it was;
- (c) the image is of the user.
- --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:48, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this except (c). If the picture was of the user's pet for example, shouldn't the same apply? U5 already allows deletion of any userpage that confuses Wikipedia with a webhost, so it's logical, that all content used solely for this page should be deleted as well. Regards SoWhy 11:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'd replace point (c) (per SoWhy) with "have no foreseeable placement in an article and are not suitable for transfer to Wikimedia Commons". The first part is the same wording F10 uses (because we don't want to delete files that are useful for articles we don't have yet), the second (which may require tweaking - the intent is to consider both content and license) is because some files may not be useful in an encyclopaedia article but might be useful for a different project. This would need to be a new F12 as it is very different to G8. Thryduulf (talk) 12:37, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this except (c). If the picture was of the user's pet for example, shouldn't the same apply? U5 already allows deletion of any userpage that confuses Wikipedia with a webhost, so it's logical, that all content used solely for this page should be deleted as well. Regards SoWhy 11:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering about which criterion to add it to aside, I'm weakly supportive on the merits. Once it's not in G8 anymore, we lose the misleading "non-existent" part from the title; having been used on a legitimately-deleted page (and nowhere else) is already restrictive. This also actually reflects former common practice, for afds and the like more so than speedies; it's rarer now mostly because you now need to be autoconfirmed to upload files locally (plus, the requirements for autoconfirmed have gone up) and we have the clause in F5 for nonfree files. Only weakly supportive because I think fileprod can handle this. —Cryptic 15:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with your comment regarding FilePROD in general. I would mainly support an extension of U5 to cover files uploaded specifically for use on U5'able pages just because it seems unnecessary bureaucratic to be able to speedy delete the userpage but then having to PROD the images uploaded for this page. For other files, FilePROD should work or at least there is no reason to assume that it doesn't. Regards SoWhy 15:20, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support as a U5 extension. The criterion would have to mention that the file would not be able to be used on Commons, as Thryduulf said, to ensure it wouldn't harm the wiki. Overall, it would probably make it easier to deal with any files like this. InvalidOS (talk) 14:06, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Did G14 revise the scope?
Sorry, I wasn't around when the relevant discussion took place. It used to be (I'm fairly certain) that disambiguation pages that contained exactly two items, one of which was the primary topic, were eligible for CSD. When I look at the new G14 criterion, that seems to no longer be the case. Is this indeed the case? —Compassionate727 (T·C) 15:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Randomly sampling this history, G14 has always said one or fewer articles since it was separated from G6 about a year ago, G6 said it applied to disambig pages disambigging one or fewer pages for at least two years before that. WilyD 15:39, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Eight years ago, it said "unnecessary disambiguation pages", without specifying what that meant. WilyD 15:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, hey, I changed the template five years ago from "two or fewer" to "fewer than two" see, but at that time this page said "fewer than two" voila, I can't recall why I noticed the discrepency. WilyD 15:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Is being deleted on another language's Wikipedia grounds for speedy deletion?
If an article was deleted on the English wikipedia, but has been (I assume more-or-less directly) translated into multiple other languages, is it legitimate to speedily delete those translations on the other language's sites? To be specific about my reason for asking, I recently flagged a page on the English wikipedia for deletion, on the grounds that it clearly did not satisfy WP:PROF. It was deleted, but the article's author (perhaps an autobiographer) has translated it into several other languages. For example, here's the German translation of the deleted page, which I attempted to flag for deletion using the normal process there: de: Giovanni Leone (Wissenschaftler). Wikkist (talk) 23:32, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- No, each project has their own separate notability guidelines, and what may be notable here may not be on the German-language wiki, and vice-versa. SportingFlyer T·C 23:38, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- Wikkist short answer: no. Different language Wikipedias are self-governed by their respective community's consensus, and our policies do not have any direct bearing on theirs or vice versa. Notability guidelines may vary, so an article deemed worth keeping on enWiki may not be kept on other projects. However, spammers may attempt to preserve their spam across multiple projects, so in some cases it may be prudent to chase an article across several different language projects (I once chased a promotional biography for a Brazilian actor into the Latin and Indonesian Wikipedias of all places). That having been said, the ultimate deletion rationale for that article is not that it was deleted here, but rather that it doesn't comply with notability guidelines there. signed, Rosguill talk 23:39, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- No. But reasons for deletion on one are likely to be the same reasons on another. When considering deletion of a non-English topic, I take very seriously the quality of the native language Wikipedia article, or the reasons for its deletion there. WP:PROF-failing “academic” biographies often do appear as WP:Orphan articles on multiple Wikipedia’s, eg for a job hunting recent postgrad graduate, and collectively it may be obvious that all are promotion/spam. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
- No. As others have stated, different Wikipedias have different standards for what should be kept and what should not. Glades12 (talk) 11:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
CSD deletion without tagging
I would like to understand whether, in terms of the current policy, if it is allowed for an admin to CSD delete an article, say on A7 grounds, without this article being CSD tagged by anyone first. (And correspondingly without anyone being notified about the article being nominated for CSD deletion, and having a chance to contest such a nomination prior to the article being deleted.) Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 15:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Only in edge cases like G3, G10 through G13, U5, etc
shouldcan this be done. An admin should never delete an article under A7 or similar without someone else tagging it. Anarchyte (talk | work) 15:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC) (minor ce: 15:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC))
- By policy, it is definitely not required, although deleting admins "should" notify the creator and any substantial contributors. Whether it's a good idea ... depends. WilyD 16:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Admin here. Depends on the CSD. If it's really blatant, or if it's a recreation of an AFDed article or something, then sure, kill it immediately. But in most cases, I prefer not to just zap articles, but to tag them for someone else to zap. But I'm not sure I'd make that mandatory in policy - David Gerard (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with it being best practice in general is not to act on your own tagging. I would support language to that effect but not for reasons outlined by David making it required by policy. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I sometimes do it when cleaning up junk filetalk pages. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- It is allowed and should stay allowed. For some CSDs it is not good practice (especially A7), but things like cleaning up after vandals or blocked NOTHERE editors do not require a second admin. —Kusma (t·c) 19:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- It's allowed, admins can delete any page which meets the CSD criteria. I have spent a fair amount of time reviewing G12 nominations only to find when I checked the history that the page was tagged by one of our best copyright admins, which always strikes me as a bit of a waste of time. Speedy deletion is supposed to be speedy and doesn't necessarily give any time for the creator to contest it, that's what AfD and PROD are for. Hut 8.5 19:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I am still not getting much clarity from the responses above. I feel that some kind of a clarification on this point in the language of the policy is needed. The specific situation I was referring to is where an admin deletes an article with a deletion log summary "notability not asserted" (which I read to mean as invoking A7) without the article having been CSD tagged at all, by anyone, including by the deleting admin. Nsk92 (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Tagging is not necessary. Some form of notification about the deletion is nice. But there are cases when an admin can just delete A7's without further comment. For example, assume I am on speedy patrol, find a tagged A7 non-notable band, delete it and then check the creator's other edits. If they are about the even less notable guitar player of that band, I'll go ahead and delete without further interaction. As a general point, I think admins on New Page Patrol should usually tag instead of deleting, but that is more a matter of best practices for NPP than for the CSD policy. —Kusma (t·c) 19:55, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Anarchyte: I'll admit I'm not an expert on every nuance of CSD policy, but I've never seen anything that supports, An admin should never delete an article under A7 or similar without someone else tagging it. Can you provide a specific citation? I'll sometimes tag articles if I have any doubt, and want another set of eyes to confirm, but usually I'll just go ahead and delete stuff that I see which clearly meets some CSD. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:30, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: I've always considered it to be the unspoken rule, that deletions that could possibly be refuted on the talk page, should not be done only by one admin. A7 isn't about notability (and Nsk92 mentioned a log summary with "notability not asserted"), it's about a claim of significance. No sources are required and the claim could be as basic as the member count or being the first to do something, so giving the author the chance to say "oh wait, I forgot this bit of info" will help the article out a lot more than an admin reading it and then immediately deleting it. Anarchyte (talk | work) 04:08, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- There is, as has been said above, no policy requiring admins to tag pages before deleting them, if one or more of the CSD apply. When I went though RfA, I pledged, as did quite a few admins at that time, to use "tag and bag", meaning that I would not delete pages not already tagged by another editor, with a few exceptions. I will delete copyvios and attack pages promptly, without waiting for another admin. I will delete talk pages as part of the deletion of other pages tagged by someone else, without waiting for a separate tag. I will do some housekeeping (G6) deletions without a tag, where i am convinced that they are truly uncontroversial, such as old redirects holding up a move, with no useful history. Otherwise I will tag for CSD like any other editor, and only delete pages tagged by someone else, after reviewing the page to be sure that the criterion applies. I wish that all admins followed similar practices, but some do not. Some routinely delete any page that they think fits one of the CSD, and as long as their judgements seem largely correct, there is no policy to require them to act differently. However, if I noticed an article deleted with the reason of "does not assert notability" I would review it, and might well bring it up at WP:DRV. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 19:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- It depends on both the criterion and the severity. I'd consider an admin who tagged a G3 (for vandalism, not for a hoax) or G10 instead of deleting it immediately as negligent - if you think you need a second opinion on these, they're probably not speedies. At the other end of the spectrum are G11s, A7s, and G12s, which should almost always be tagged due to the potential for error (of judgment for the first two, of fact for G12). "Always" is a strong word though, and I have no issue with an admin who deletes them in the most unambiguous cases - articles like User:Uchenna578 (sample for nonadmins: "We pride ourselves in great work ethic, integrity, and end-results."); the stereotypical article about a middle-school "singer-songwriter" who just released his first single on Youtube, that A7 was originally aimed at and that we still see in mainspace occasionally; or a full-page cut-and-paste from a major website like CNN or the BBC where there's zero chance of it ultimately being a reverse infringement of Wikipedia or some other freely-licensed source. In between are criteria like G13, which are unambiguous - either the page has been edited in the last six months or it hasn't - but still benefit from a second pair of eyes, on the off chance a page was improperly declined at AFC or moved out of the main namespace, or can otherwise be turned into a viable article. —Cryptic 10:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Does histmerge invalidate G5?
An interesting situation arose at Kamerfer Kadın: the page was created by a user who was later blocked for socking, and subsequently moved to draft. It was later re-created in mainspace by a sock of the same editor, after which the revision history of the earlier version (the draft) was histmerged to that page, with the result that the master rather than the sock showed as creator.
Question: is such a page eligible for deletion as WP:G5? Always, under certain conditions, or never? Question 2: is this already covered by policy somewhere? – in which case please direct me there and ignore question 1. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Short answer: No. And already covered imho. Longer answer: Per policy, a page is only eligible of deletion if all revisions are eligible. If somehow revisions from a page that is not eligible are mixed in with a page that is eligible, the resulting page is no longer eligible since you can restore the non-eligible revision. Anything else would logically lead to a page becoming eligible for G5 because a user was later banned which G5 does not allow. Regards SoWhy 20:23, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with that assessment. WP:G5 is an extension of WP:BANREVERT, so if an otherwise G5 eligible page has previously deleted edits restored, BANREVERT would have us revert to last restored edit. In that state, the reason for the previous deletion (or other removal) will often sill apply. If the previous deletion was an AfD, it becomes a very clear cut G4 deletion, most of the speedy deletion criteria would continue to apply, etc. PROD is the main exception here, where the restore invalidates the previous deletion. While such a page would likely not be eligible for deletion per G5 only, deletion will often be the correct course of action. That being said, in this particular case, moving the page to the draftspace is probably the best option. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply, SoWhy. Could you clarify whether your interpretation of our policy applies only in those cases where a history merge has been done, or in all cases where a sock has re-created an article that had previously been deleted, regardless of whether the previous revisions have been restored or histmerged? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Sputnik: The question was about G5 eligibility only. If another criterion applies to the non-G5-eligible parts, then that's okay and that criterion can be used.
- @Justlettersandnumbers: "My" interpretation is merely quoting the policy that says "A page is eligible for speedy deletion only if all of its revisions are also eligible." For G5, a histmerge is the only time I can think of when only parts of the revisions are G5-eligible. If the original page has been deleted for another reason and a sock recreates it, then the recreation is eligible for G5 (if the other requirements are met). Regards SoWhy 18:25, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply, SoWhy. Could you clarify whether your interpretation of our policy applies only in those cases where a history merge has been done, or in all cases where a sock has re-created an article that had previously been deleted, regardless of whether the previous revisions have been restored or histmerged? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with that assessment. WP:G5 is an extension of WP:BANREVERT, so if an otherwise G5 eligible page has previously deleted edits restored, BANREVERT would have us revert to last restored edit. In that state, the reason for the previous deletion (or other removal) will often sill apply. If the previous deletion was an AfD, it becomes a very clear cut G4 deletion, most of the speedy deletion criteria would continue to apply, etc. PROD is the main exception here, where the restore invalidates the previous deletion. While such a page would likely not be eligible for deletion per G5 only, deletion will often be the correct course of action. That being said, in this particular case, moving the page to the draftspace is probably the best option. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- This discussion is way beyond me. May I suggest that since speedy deletion is only for "the most obvious cases" it does not and cannot apply in this case? Thincat (talk) 11:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- If the original page was created before the user was banned then G5 does not apply. As SoWhy explains, if a page has some revisions that are eligible for speedy deletion (under any criterion) and some that are not then the page is not eligible for speed deletion. As Thincat says if there is any doubt about whether speedy deletion applies it does not. Thryduulf (talk) 21:13, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Time limits on G4?
Should the threat of a potential G4 deletion remain hanging over an article forever?
See List of Hello world program examples. This was AfDed in 2015. Since then, the article had come back (I don't know when). Today it vanished. That appears to have been one of those "delete as G4" drive-bys with no prior tagging or attempt at discussion.
G4 is already specific that it's not here for, It excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version
. Now surely most versions, years down the line, are going to be substantially different anyway? But should we codify this with some time limit? What we really don't need is the current situation, where an article can have several years of existence (and whatever editing effort went into it) and then still gets rubbed out instantly by one drive-by from a single admin.
At the very least, G4 deletions long after an original AfD should be tagged and discussed, maybe a week, rather than simply actioned immediately, without notice. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:06, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Problem I see is that the new article was substantially identical to the deleted version. I know that G4 taggings often are done w/o checking whether the new version is the same as the new one, but this doesn't appear to be the case here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:11, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Not only "substantially identical" in that it was still a list of code snippets that still had the same problems cited in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hello world program examples, but also the specific text was so close that it seems very likely it was copied (without attribution) from somewhere else that had originally copied our article. Upon further investigation, I find the recreation was nearly identical to the version of the article from 2015-04-09 00:21:41 UTC, with the only difference being the lack of the <!-- comment --> at the top with instruction for additions. Anomie⚔ 14:45, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- FYI, it was recreated 2019-11-16 04:46:17 UTC. So a bit over a month of existence, not years. There were three edits after the recreation before it was tagged for G4 (much less than the 99 revisions between the April 2015 version copied for the recreation and the version deleted in September 2015). Anomie⚔ 14:53, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see the need for a time limit. The important thing is sufficiently/substantially identical. The reason for a deletion may no longer be valid, and in those cases, we want to allow the subject to be covered without the need for any heavy process. But, in those cases, whatever has changed in the world should be reflected in changes in the article. Simply plopping down a saved copy of the old text doesn't fix anything. Not to mention the attribution issues mentioned above. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:06, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- In addition to the similarity to the deleted versions (which I noted, though not that it was actually identical to the April version - I'd assumed it had been edited in the meantime on whatever mirror it was re-copied from), it was created it one edit by a very inexperienced user, who blanked the {{old AFD multi}} notice on the talk page placed by AnomieBOT. This struck me not as a test to see whether the very solid consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hello world program examples had changed, but as a very deliberate attempt to evade that prior consensus.Your suggestion that G4s be tagged and discussed for a week would be, in essence, requiring a new afd, no matter the similarity to the prior version. That's not a reasonable use of volunteer time, not in an era where the average afd discussion has to be relisted for two or three weeks in order to secure consensus either way, rather than the five days that used to be the norm. —Cryptic 21:45, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Why is it that every time "efficiency" is raised as a problem, it's to favour admins pressing one button rather than two - but the rather lengthier process of content creation: we're always happy to bin that. They're only volunteers: serves 'em right. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:03, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Andy, I'm guessing this wasn't the response you'd been hoping for when you posted your question. However, did you see the section two above where multiple sysops say that best practice is that, for many (most?) speedy deletion tags for sysops to place the tag and let another delete rather than just press the button themselves, or the split among sysops (if anything leaning negative) to the proposed revision of G8 - a proposal made in the name of efficiency? As someone who thinks my best work on wiki has been my content work and is also gravely concerned about the number of editor hours available to support all of our processes and tasks I don't think it's accurate to paint such a broad picture. It is more nuanced than that. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hoping for? The most I'd ever hope for from WP is that the revenge deletions and the abuse remain slower than I can type responses to - I'm realistic. As this article is said to have been substantially identical to that deleted, then at least not much has been wasted. I couldn't describe that AfD as "firm consensus" though, when the nominations were "too many reasons" and "certainly not notable" and the closer didn't even bother giving a reason.
- I would hope that admins would use a tag-and-bag approach to such things, but it's pretty rare. Andy Dingley (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Andy, I'm guessing this wasn't the response you'd been hoping for when you posted your question. However, did you see the section two above where multiple sysops say that best practice is that, for many (most?) speedy deletion tags for sysops to place the tag and let another delete rather than just press the button themselves, or the split among sysops (if anything leaning negative) to the proposed revision of G8 - a proposal made in the name of efficiency? As someone who thinks my best work on wiki has been my content work and is also gravely concerned about the number of editor hours available to support all of our processes and tasks I don't think it's accurate to paint such a broad picture. It is more nuanced than that. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Why is it that every time "efficiency" is raised as a problem, it's to favour admins pressing one button rather than two - but the rather lengthier process of content creation: we're always happy to bin that. They're only volunteers: serves 'em right. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:03, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- Didn't I add a deletion tag to that page before it was deleted? * Pppery * it has begun... 20:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)