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Secondary colors
For purposes of legibility it seems a good a rule of thumb to if at all possible make the second color white, or, if that be untenable as a school color, and the first is a shade of Princeton orange or lighter, then black. Cake (talk) 09:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Request for template protection
I was asked to consider adding template protection to this page, with the arguments summarized as follows:
- Some edit wars have occurred on this page
- A sockpuppet has previously edited this page.
- The colors of hundreds of schools could be compromised by this one page, impacting a lot of pages (exactly number not readily available as this page is generically included in templates also used by pro players)
Relevant points from Wikipedia:Protection policy are:
- WP:TEMP-P: Template protection "should only be used on templates whose risk factor would have otherwise warranted full protection."
- Full protection would not be warranted here for content disputes. Full protection would normally be temporary in this case, and not indefinite. Moreover, WP:FULL advises: "Isolated incidents of edit warring, and persistent edit warring by particular users, may be better addressed by blocking, so as not to prevent normal editing of the page by others."
- If socking were a concern, semi-protection would be used, not full.
- Full protection is not typically used to prevent vandalism. Per WP:PREEMPTIVE: "Pre-emptive full protection of articles is contrary to the open nature of Wikipedia ... Persistent vandalism, or the possibility of future vandalism for highly trafficked articles, rarely provides a basis for full-protection. Semi-protection is used for articles, such as Jesus, that have a pattern of heavy sustained vandalism."
- TEMP-P also allows for usage on high-risk templates or modules. Indications are that for this data page, the worst that is expected to happen is that the wrong colors might appear, and the text in the colored borders of affected infoboxes could be made unreadable by a rogue editor.[1] This is not at the risk level of making 1000s of pages entirely unreadable, or placing an undue load on servers.
My decision for the current request is for no template protection, based on policy cited. Incorrect colors seem to be the most likely risk of not providing template protection, but this seems akin to the risk inherent for any content on Wikipedia that might be temporarily incorrect until it is detected and addressed.
To mitigate edit wars, I would suggest improving the verifiability of the colors used. One option might be to annotate the page with comments—perhaps of urls supporting the choicef colors—in the Lua code. Comments are denoted by double dashes, e.g. --, such as in this sandbox edit. If an individual editor is still problematic despite continued dispute resolution attempts, a topic ban is also an option. Finally, temporary full protection remains an alternative if needed to encourage discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 02:27, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Improve redundancy and verifiability
@Corkythehornetfan, MisterCake, Frietjes, ArmandoBecker, Joeykai, UCO2009bluejay, and Charlesaaronthompson: You've been directly pinged as the editors with > 10 edits of this page.[2] I'll also leave notification at WT:CBBALL and WP:CFB, projects that have infoboxes that use this module.
There seems to be occasional disputes over individual color entries in the table. To minimize these disagreements, I would suggest for long-term verifiabiity that inline comments be used when adding or modifying a line. This can be done in Lua by using double dashes, e.g. --, such as in this sandbox edit. For example, the comment can be the URL of an online reference, and/or text about how the colors were derived. In the past, this has sometimes been provided in an edit summary, but it's not manageable to trace through edit summaries for historical changes.
Additionally, the college colors on this page seem to be duplicated in other infoboxes. For example, the infobox of Ohio State Buckeyes football has the school colors displayed, except the values are not taken from this module. To centralize the colors and remove the overhead of multiple updates, I would suggest that {{CollegePrimaryHex}} and {{CollegeSecondaryHex}} be used to avoid colors not being consistent across pages.
I am Interested if editors think these steps would be an improvement, or if there are better suggestions. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- Bagumba, if you want to this module in the infobox, you will need a way to keep the name of the color in sync with the color (e.g., color1 and color1hex). this is certainly possible by extending this module to include color names. a better option would be to just have {{Infobox NCAA football school}} use this module directly, extracting the team name from the
|TeamName=
parameter. Frietjes (talk) 14:11, 24 October 2015 (UTC)- @Frietjes: Great suggestion to just have the infoboxes coded to call the module itself instead of burdening editors to have to have to call CollegePrimaryHex and CollegeSecondaryHex themselves. I'd imaging there are some transclusions where the text for the colors might be different than what is currently in this table. Those cases, which should be few, would just have to be identified manually on a per-case basis. I'll leave it up to others if they want to have the text for the colors stored in this table or not. I guess a bot could do the transferring, if desired?—Bagumba (talk) 19:52, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Bagumba and Frietjes: Yes, this is a very good idea, and it is the logical expansion of the module's applications. One verified source for college colors in all college sports articles, infoboxes, and navboxes. The problem, Bagumba, is that it will mean that even more articles are exposed to mischief-making through tampering with the module. I'm all in favor of Frietjes' proposal, but the module needs to be locked as I have urged before, which is completely consistent with the purpose and intents of template protection. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- DL: You can continue your concerns with protection above at #Request for template protection, and feel free to invite other admins to participate as well.—Bagumba (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think that would be appropriate. In the mean time, we should also take the necessary steps to implement the inline linked sourcing within the Lua module. That, at least, would permit any watchers to instantly check any changes to the module. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- DL: You can continue your concerns with protection above at #Request for template protection, and feel free to invite other admins to participate as well.—Bagumba (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Bagumba and Frietjes: Yes, this is a very good idea, and it is the logical expansion of the module's applications. One verified source for college colors in all college sports articles, infoboxes, and navboxes. The problem, Bagumba, is that it will mean that even more articles are exposed to mischief-making through tampering with the module. I'm all in favor of Frietjes' proposal, but the module needs to be locked as I have urged before, which is completely consistent with the purpose and intents of template protection. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Frietjes: Great suggestion to just have the infoboxes coded to call the module itself instead of burdening editors to have to have to call CollegePrimaryHex and CollegeSecondaryHex themselves. I'd imaging there are some transclusions where the text for the colors might be different than what is currently in this table. Those cases, which should be few, would just have to be identified manually on a per-case basis. I'll leave it up to others if they want to have the text for the colors stored in this table or not. I guess a bot could do the transferring, if desired?—Bagumba (talk) 19:52, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is a worthwile proposal. I am tired of having reverts blowing up my watchlist (Usually by Corky and he is in the right to do so because he is actually verifying the others' work). When I have edited the table I usually put the source url in the edit summary, and if I can't find it for a team, I don't add the program to the mod. I suppose many others don't, so if this will cut down on the clutter great.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- I really have no preference as to what is decided. As I said on Dirtlawyer1's talk page, do what's best for the Wikipedia Community. Whatever that may be, I'm fine with. Corkythehornetfan 18:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Corky: As the top editor by edit count of this page, you could set an example by adding the suggested comments if you think they are helpful. I rarely edit this module, and have no interest in force-feeding or policing this myself if there is no grassroots interest. IMO, the editors here could reduce the repeated disputes if they wanted to, but maybe it's not considered a real issue.—Bagumba (talk) 19:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Bagumba, what we need is someone knowledgeable to show us how to set up the inline linked citations for the Lua module, so we can implement your suggestion. This needs to happen for the reasons discussed above. I think Corky is tired of playing the Lone Ranger. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I was thinking something like this sandbox edit, which is based on the both the earlier instructions on adding generic comments and a recent real life edit of Sacramento State's colors.—Bagumba (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I was hoping for something a little cleaner, with an actual link to the online reference for the current colors. Like in the table, next to the hexes, in order to make double-checking any changes as quick, easy and simple as possible. Let's see what Frietjes may suggest; this is her baby, after all. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- If programatic changes were made, we could graduate from comments to an optional ref for a row entry. Will people use it?—Bagumba (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Darn right they will, or their changes are going to get reverted -- and it won't only be Corky doing the reverting. This really needs to be done right, and not jury-rigged. With all of the work Frietjes and others have done to get the module up and running, and fully incorporated into the first phase of our college sports infoboxes (with more to come), the module really needs to be properly sourced and defended. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- If programatic changes were made, we could graduate from comments to an optional ref for a row entry. Will people use it?—Bagumba (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I was hoping for something a little cleaner, with an actual link to the online reference for the current colors. Like in the table, next to the hexes, in order to make double-checking any changes as quick, easy and simple as possible. Let's see what Frietjes may suggest; this is her baby, after all. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I was thinking something like this sandbox edit, which is based on the both the earlier instructions on adding generic comments and a recent real life edit of Sacramento State's colors.—Bagumba (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Bagumba, what we need is someone knowledgeable to show us how to set up the inline linked citations for the Lua module, so we can implement your suggestion. This needs to happen for the reasons discussed above. I think Corky is tired of playing the Lone Ranger. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Corky: As the top editor by edit count of this page, you could set an example by adding the suggested comments if you think they are helpful. I rarely edit this module, and have no interest in force-feeding or policing this myself if there is no grassroots interest. IMO, the editors here could reduce the repeated disputes if they wanted to, but maybe it's not considered a real issue.—Bagumba (talk) 19:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm fine with verifying colors with a source. Whether it be using references or comments, I'll support it. Corkythehornetfan 20:05, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're a good man, Corky Hornet! Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- whatever works for everyone. if you want to be able to access the source url within the demonstration table, it should be a parameter in the array, for example, like this, or whatever you want to call it. the code only parses the values for 1, 2, 3, 4 (at the moment) so adding additional fields won't do or break anything. note that if we want to add the color names as well, we could do that with say, 'name1=', 'name2=', ... the color names would be useful if we have an infobox automatically pull the colors from this module (to keep the name/hex in sync). Frietjes (talk) 12:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of using Template:CollegePrimaryHex and Template:CollegeSecondaryHex in college sports team articles. It would save many edits, which I think is the point of this discussion. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 02:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Houston Cougars hex colors
@RJN and Corkythehornetfan: Please see the following: [3] and [4]. These links were found by searching "Houston Cougars brand identity" and "University of Houston brand identity" using Google, and both represent official statements of the university's brand identity (current marketing industry catchphrase).
Please note that the two links provide two different Hex colors for Houston Cougar red. I have no idea what the difference is, but I would suggest that some reading of the fine print of the text at both links may provide an answer, or it may be two different ways of describing the same color. That said, the resolution needs to be discussed on this talk page before making any further changes. I don't pretend to know. But please stop edit warring on the module or I will request all parties be blocked. The overriding goal should be the accurate presentation of the Houston Cougar brand and its colors on Wikipedia. Let's keep that in mind. I think that's what everyone wants. If it takes a couple of days of discussion, and perhaps a phone call to the 713 area code, to resolve the question, so be it. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: There is also this page. You won't have to worry about me doing any more editing on the module, or most other articles for that matter, because I'm getting sick of this. BTW, your pings didn't work. Corkythehornetfan 22:04, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
ETSU source
Didn't notice we had to add a link for color additions so here's ETSU's. Perhaps y'all should mention sourcing on page, rather than expect editors to know this? — Wyliepedia 19:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- @CAWylie: Thanks. We're working on a new system for documenting the hex colors for each team. In the past, we have had problems with sock puppets and vandals messing with college and pro sports team colors on an article-by-article basis. Now that we have all of the colors for individual teams increasingly tied to this module, we need to do a better job of documenting the colors for each and reviewing any changes to them.
- FYI, here's another statement of ETSU's official colors, including the hex colors for internet/website use: [5] (see page 2.5). Most major universities have now taken an interest in promulgating an official "graphic identity," including colors and logos, etc. Note the ETSU graphics manual refers to HTML colors rather than hex colors. Thanks for your cooperation. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Charleston source
Here has the hex/pantones for Charleston's maroon and gold. Cake (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- @MisterCake: Thanks for your help in documenting the Charleston colors. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Dartmouth sources
Well since others are posting them here, here ya go: Corkythehornetfan 22:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Dartmouth Big Green – Athletics website (only PMS and CMYK/RGB codes); University website (same as Athletics website, but with the hex code
- Brown Bears – Source 1, Source 2
- Harvard University/Harvard Crimson – Source 1 (Crimson), Source 2 (Accent color w/Crimson; found on most guidelines at the university) {Source 3, Source 4}
- Liberty University/Liberty Flames and Lady Flames – Source
- UMass Lowell River Hawks/University of Massachusetts Lowell – Source
- Mississippi State Bulldogs – Source
- IPFW Mastodons – Source
- Thanks, Corky. Because of your earlier efforts in sourcing and requesting sources from other editors, we're able to take another step. I will follow up with Frietjes regarding how the online sources should best be incorporated into the module itself. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- The sooner, the better. I really don't want to be listing all of my sources here or in the edit summary and make the edit. That's TOO much work! If it can be done all in one edit, I'll be a happy camper! Until then, I guess I'll just add them under this section. Corkythehornetfan 00:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- All 3 programs are among those that need work in season articles. Are they an interest of yours Corky, or just feel they are important enough to post here? I have to imagine Swede Oberlander was fun to watch. Cake (talk) 18:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not an interest, just going through NCAA conferences... I was doing Ivy League. I figured y'all was posting here, and I'm sure someone will question check my edits, so I figured I'd just post them here to save the trouble. Corkythehornetfan 19:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- All 3 programs are among those that need work in season articles. Are they an interest of yours Corky, or just feel they are important enough to post here? I have to imagine Swede Oberlander was fun to watch. Cake (talk) 18:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: From Frietjes' earlier response, she seems to be suggesting that we add whatever new parameters for which there is consensus, and she will process them as we desire (e.g. add url for display, make names of colors available, etc). Adding them ahead of time before she implements it, as she said, "won't do or break anything". Therefore, there is no need to make her the bottleneck.—Bagumba (talk) 02:19, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- The sooner, the better. I really don't want to be listing all of my sources here or in the edit summary and make the edit. That's TOO much work! If it can be done all in one edit, I'll be a happy camper! Until then, I guess I'll just add them under this section. Corkythehornetfan 00:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Clemson Tigers source
Here is the source for the Clemson Tigers' official athletic department colors: Clemson Athletics Style & Branding Guide Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)